S05.E18: Godspeed

[VCRTracking]

13 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I think I gave her enough credit by saying she didn't fail, which is how it was set up for a first time director.  I'm sure TPTB would have done the same for anyone else in the cast directing for the first time, which is only logical. I don't comment on Tom C's directing efforts ever. 

But if you're expecting me to give kudos to DP beyond this, it's like asking me to praise her if she'd coached the Warriors against the Mavericks or the New England Pats against the Bills for the first time. It's less about DP than it is about the team around her and the challenges she faced, which were minimized to allow her to not fail. Now, when she starts directing multi-plot, multi-arc, multi-character episodes with excellence, I might give her more praise.

I don't know if anything was minimized. Then every director would want the same treatment! If she wasn't up to snuff the first day they could have easily replaced her which would probably be much easier.

As I posted I don't mind her not getting props because we never talk about directors in anyway. I could take or leave Danielle/Caitlin/Killer Frost in general. If she left the show I'd shrug.

22 minutes ago, adora721 said:

ETA: How about this: She's a better first-time director than she is a veteran actress.

Heh.

[quarks]

44 minutes ago, Trini said:

Even if they had to have her born at a certain time, the age at which she decided to time travel, etc., was up to them. And they chose to make her mid-twenties but act a decade younger.

Yeah, this.

I suspect the mid-20s look/casting was a combination of realizing that Jessica Parker Kennedy really looks uncannily like a potential adult kid of Grant Gustin and Candice Patton - on sheer looks, they nailed that - and BTS/network requests. But given all that, they either needed to have Nora act like someone in her mid-20s, or give some reason - aka Shazam - why she isn't. 

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

DP was set up to not fail: 

• Given an episode with Godspeed in it.
• No B or C plots to manage.
• Minimal dialogue from the series regulars.
• Only one main person to manage.

Well, every television show sets up its directors to not fail. 

We're talking a fairly significant amount of money here. Even an extremely cheap (by broadcast TV standards) show like Flash still has a production budget somewhere around $1.5 to $1.7 million. So, yeah, WB and Berlanti are going to do their best to ensure that money isn't wasted, regardless of the director. 

That's why they required DP to spend several episodes shadowing experienced directors before allowing her to try.

6 minutes ago, adora721 said:

It's less about DP than it is about the team around her and the challenges she faced, which were minimized to allow her to not fail. Now, when she starts directing multi-plot, multi-arc, multi-character episodes with excellence, I might give her more praise.

These comments seem to misunderstand the job duties of a television director?

Because it's not just managing actors/dialogue - it's creating the look/sound of a given episode/film. 

Sometimes a multi-plot, multi-arc episode can even be easier to direct - since portions of those secondary arcs can be handed over to second or third unit directors if necessary, although second/third unit directors more typically handle stunt sequences and pickup shots and so on. (Not that Flash usually credits a third unit director.)

All this is why I'm surprised that they did give the brand-new Danielle Panabaker a single-arc episode, and in fact, one of the most challenging episodes of the season to direct, including elements like:

1) A new guest star in a relatively large role consisting of at least four days of filming. In general, it takes considerably more time/effort to introduce a new actor to an episode than to work with actors who have been on the show for years and know their characters well.

2) An actor had to play two entirely different characters.

3) An unusually high number of different sets and location shots (for this show), including three sets that had to be temporarily reworked.

4) An episode partly set in the future, which required DP and the set designers to create a brand new look for those scenes - on an extremely limited budget. Adding to the complexity: Flash has two sister shows which have already shown a future, so Flash had to remain sorta consistent while retaining an individual look. 

5) A scene from a future episode that hasn't been written yet (Crisis) - but which had to be, even more so than the above part, consistent with what is planned for that scene. And not just plot, but lighting, filters, background, etc.

6) Three scenes with more than three actors.

7) Limited stunt scenes - aka, the work usually done by a second unit director, and limited establishing/insert shots, also work done by a second unit director. To be fair, this probably lessened the time needed to coordinate with the second unit, but it wasn't necessarily easier.

8 ) At least one scene requiring ADR.

9) Several CGI elements that had to be held equivalent to Flash's technical standards.

10) Scheduling filming while Legends of Tomorrow was still in production (and when The 100 dropped by the studio for pick-up shots), limiting soundstage availability. And yeah, that's a standard Arrowverse problem, but if they really wanted to minimize her issues, they could have scheduled her to direct episodes 19 or 20.

So, yeah, apart from lessening the role of her character in the episode, something frequently done for a TV actor's directorial debut, I don't think her challenges were minimized at all.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

-Barry's goodbye video to Nora! Cries. That was so good. That was supposedly during crisis, right? Barry thought he might die?

It was good but at the same time pissed me off.  He said if she was seeing it it meant she had powers (so we know that she didn't display them as a baby at least) but that means that if Nora had NOT had powers Barry wasn't going to bother leaving her a message about how much he loved her??  Tsk, tsk.  (This is tongue in cheek, I'm assuming if he had another option he would have used it but how they phrased it made me side eye it)

16 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I was going to mention this. My issue is not that the Team Flash was there for the WestAllen family drama, they are always in each other's business, but rather that those scenes showed yet again that there are way too many people on Team Flash. Rather than three relatives/friends, there is a ring of unnecessary spectators. Joe, Cisco, and Caitlin all have first hand experience with Thawne's manipulation so they have something to contribute in the debate about Nora's behavior, but there was no reason for Cecile, Ralph, and Sherloque to be there. This cast needs a serious cull.

Yes, to it being a large cast they don't always manage well, but except for Ralph, who would leave?  Cecile's been as close to Nora as anyone.  And Sherloque is the one that was doing the digging.  They have big stakes in finding out answers. Even Ralph probably felt he had a stake in finding out the truth because they in that moment were unsure of why Nora had actually come back.  

15 hours ago, adora721 said:

I think the writers are trying to play both sides: blame Iris and "redeem" Iris. 

What doesn't hold water about blaming Iris is that Nora is at least 25, not a 10 year old experiencing tragedy from such a tender age. While Nora didn't have a father, she had a father figure in Papa Joe, so having daddy issues seems out of place IMO. 

Nora's age IMO works against Iris because while there can be some fairly reasonable arguments about Iris going to extremes of her own to protect her child when she IS a child, they stop being acceptable when Nora is an adult and shame on the "everyone" for not making that clear.  It's forgivable given time and understanding of Iris's trauma but it's still wrong that she didn't respect Nora's rights as an adult.

If Nora acts young for her age it's most likely because everyone but a BFF treated her like a child her whole life.  I mean, Iris was hounding her just so she could tell her she was doing fine on assignment?  Leave a damn message and let your grown ass daughter have some space.  

14 hours ago, Trini said:

It is out of character, and they're clearly doing it for DRAMA, but I'm still here for the fallout, though.

 

I disagree.  It's very in character for Barry to only think of how he feels and what is best for him in the moment.  Flashpoint was the major example of that and he was sorry about it but the lesson he took was don't mess with time travel, not don't be so myopic.  Barry has made unilateral decisions all the time long since after season two and three. 

Just last year they went to therapy about it after he came out of the speed force but we still saw him cutting Iris out of the choice when he went to jail (rather than speeding away so he was NOT found at the scene of the crime - dude could have been back to Joe's and had a airtight alibi if he hadn't been such a dumb ass).  

Now Barry is all up in his emo again and how anyone else might feel about him banishing Nora from all of their lives doesn't even matter.  And as others pointed out it's so much colder than just him being upset since he knows Nora will never see him again.  (Is he going to hate the baby too now??)  Sending her away like that is just ice.  That's disowning your child.  That's telling her I never want to see you again.  And for what?  Not even for her actions but for who she talked to.  He didn't even bother to ask WHY she kept going back to see Thawne.  It's a good thing that Iris is the one supposedly incharge of the team cause Barry is too ruled by impulse and emotions to think rationally.    

Edited April 17, 2019 by BkWurm1

[adora721]

1 hour ago, quarks said:

These comments seem to misunderstand the job duties of a television director?

I'll take your word for it that these are all the things a director does, but stand by my POV that DP was set up not to fail. I don't think anything you said contradicts my POV. 

ETA- 5x18 was basically a retelling of the pilot episode of the Flash. It was Barry's origin (even played Gaga's "Poker Face") with bits of Zoom, Trajectory, V9, and a few new things thrown in - all familiar territory to DP.  The sets were mostly pre-existing with some minor tweeks. Tom C. can do Eobard and Sherloque in his sleep. The look and feel of the show is very much a known entity to DP for five seasons in, and the guest stars had minimal screen time and dialogue. In other words, there wasn't a lot of new or strange elements for DP to contend with; she was more than familiar with all the essentials involved. It's like those people who think "The Force Awakens" was new when it was retread of "A New Hope" - the same movie with a few new faces.  Again, they gave DP something very familiar and set her up not to fail.

ETA- While DP has been saying in interviews that she is the first female director on this show, please meet Millicent Shelton; the Black, female director of at least three episodes of the Flash. She directed "Welcome to Earth-2" (one of my favorites). Now, she had the challenge of creating a retro and a futuristic world on another Earth. That's a real challenge, which set the precedent for DP to follow.

Edited April 17, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

5 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

  If Nora acts young for her age it's most likely because everyone but a BFF treated her like a child her whole life.

IMO, anyone 25 and older is more than capable of makng their own choices when it comes to being coddled by an overbearing parent.  She could have stood up for herself at any point. This is not on Iris. Iris' overprotectiveness is Iris' responsibility. Nora's immaturity is Nora's responsibility. If she's old enough to have a PhD and be a CSI, Nora is old enough to grow past her upbringing. Can't blame everything on mommy forever.

[BkWurm1]

I was thinking about how they set up Thawne helping Nora and Nora trusting him and I came away thinking they did it fair better than I expected.  I had expected it to be him that revealed she had powers in addition to that Barry was the Flash but her going to him because of the case made a lot of sense.  

And I know someone said that he was her father's greatest enemy but that isn't actually what she knew.  In the Flash museum he was just one of many and the only think said about him was that he was a speedster and and been taken into custody 15 years ago.  She did know the details were under tight control but that could easily have been explained away by his crimes having to do with Gov secrets.  

I can't think she thought he was any kind of a good guy but she had no reason to think he was some kind of master manipulator.  Her seeing that he was mistreated in his confinement make her see him sympathetically and then because she was desperate for the knowledge only a speedster could give her, it made sense for her to go back to him after he did help her with Godspeed.  And the fact that he had to be convinced to help made him seem more trustworthy as did the reveal that he had only an hour to live.  There is a long precedent for people facing death suddenly "going good".  So it's not that insane that she would think he had no reason to not be genuine in the help he offered.  Not until she found out his history with her father.

But even then, she still doesn't know the extent of who Thawne is or what he's capable of.  And again, no matter what horrible thing he'd done in the past, given all the talk about second chances and Thawne being in his literal last hour, Nora coming around to believing  he was helping her doesn't seem insane from her perspective. 

What does seem insane to me is Barry dumping her back in the future without even trying to figure out what Thawne's end game was. 

Also, am I misremembering things but didn't Nora say at the start of the season she was back to prevent her dad from vanishing?  Has the show dropped that thread?   

[adora721]

7 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

  And the fact that he had to be convinced to help made him seem more trustworthy as did the reveal that he had only an hour to live.  There is a long precedent for people facing death suddenly "going good".  So it's not that insane that she would think he had no reason to not be genuine in the help he offered.  Not until she found out his history with her father.

Your post reminded me of a troubling episode of Grey's Anatomy titled, "Sympathy for the Devil". Meredith wants to help a seriel killer on death row she's treating donate his organs. Almost everyone can see through him, but she doesn't see him cleary until the end. She ends up being haunted by him and her reaction to him.

[BkWurm1]

57 minutes ago, adora721 said:

IMO, anyone 25 and older is more than capable of makng their own choices when it comes to being coddled by an overbearing parent.  She could have stood up for herself at any point. This is not on Iris. Iris' overprotectiveness is Iris' responsibility. Nora's immaturity is Nora's responsibility. If she's old enough to have a PhD and be a CSI, Nora is old enough to grow past her upbringing. Can't blame everything on mommy forever.

We are shaped into who we are by those around us.  25 is SOOOOOOO freaking young still. It's naive to think one can undo a lifetime of habits and developed personality traits that quickly.  

 In her life we do see that she had made strides for her independence.  She tried to set boundaries with her mother and they were not being respected to the point of Iris getting the Flash museum to broadcast she should call her mom like Nora was some lost child.  

And given Iris's confusion about the vid messaging not working and sounding so surprised that she was at the museum again, I'm not even sure that Iris knew for sure Nora was at the museum when she had her paged.  The person paging her wasn't certain either.  Probably means Iris called around everywhere.  CC Jitters probably paged her as well.  

Iris isn't treating her like an adult and since no one else dared tell her the truth I have to believe it's not a unique experience and expecting Nora would be able to simply shake off a life time of interaction and with no guidance or years of hard work just be a completely adjusted mature adult with no sign of her past affecting her personality or choices is IMO expecting too much.  

Nora has a life time of self doubt and second guessing in addition to having been coddled and treated like a child even while she was trying to have her independence.  She's still trying to get the adults in her life at that point to accept that she had grown up.  If she's still acting like a teen it's because she is still pushing back against being treated like that kid.  It's all she knows.  And that's the mindset she still took with her even around people that would have treated her like an adult, but that's not what she knows.  

And honestly, Barry and his emotional knee jerk reaction to her is incredibly immature too so I guess it runs in the family.   

Edited April 17, 2019 by BkWurm1

[SimoneS]

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Honestly, Nora's presence has gotten me irritated with how quick Iris is to defend the daughter that was lying to them. Barry's anger makes sense; sure, it's not fun to watch his reaction and he may be wrong in his choices, but I honestly can't be too mad since we know the extensive history and why he's upset. It's definitely extreme, though. I don't mind Iris being the voice of reason, but the unfortunate part is that HER reaction is biased as well! She's only having Nora's back because she feels guilty about how Future Iris treated her. 

I don't think that Iris was quick to defend Nora. She was quick to give Nora a chance to explain herself. Notice the first thing she said to Nora when she released her from the pipeline was, "don't make me regret this." It showed that Iris was apprehensive and didn't trust Nora either. 

I am also giving Iris a HUGE break because this whole season she has been freaking brainwashed by Nora (and the show) into believing that she is a horrible mother. It has made Iris question herself and has taken away some of her confidence in her judgement. Even Nora's backstory from her diary last night was designed to make Iris the bad guy. Iris lied to her about her powers, leaving poor whittle Nora alone in the world so she had no other choice, but to turn to Thawne. RME. So of course, Iris wants to give Nora a chance and make up for the past. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by SimoneS

[BkWurm1]

17 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Your post reminded me of a troubling episode of Grey's Anatomy titled, "Sympathy for the Devil". Meredith wants to help a seriel killer on death row she's treating donate his organs. Almost everyone can see through him, but she doesn't see him cleary until the end. She ends up being haunted by him and her reaction to him.

There are bad people out there but not ever being willing to take a chance on someone isn't anything to recommend someone either.  Barry constantly has weighed situations and put his faith in someone that on paper doesn't deserve it.  Sometimes he's right and sometimes he gets burned.  When being wrong has consequences, it will haunt him too I'm sure but all you can do it judge the situations as they come and as you see them.  

Nora may come to deeply regret working with Thawne but that's why they say hindsight is 20/20 not foresight.  She made a choice based on what she knows.  Not what the audience knows.  And it's unfair to judge her for what she can't have known.  

Even with what we do know, I can see how it could be believed he simply wouldn't have enough time to come up with a super twisty and complicated plan to use the unexpected opportunity that her listening to him created.  Given the timeline we now have I find it rather unbelievable that he could cobble together some master plan.  I won't be shocked if he did since this is TV but in real life, yeah, there'd be a lot of good reasons to think he wouldn't have time to mess with anything. 

[adora721]

38 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

We are shaped into who we are by those around us.  25 is SOOOOOOO freaking young still. It's naive to think one can undo a lifetime of habits and developed personality traits that quickly.  

Have to respectfully disagree here. 25 isn't so young at all.

Nora still lives at home, why? Does she have student loans to pay off? Highly unlikely since her mom runs a media empire, which means she's loaded.  Nora chooses to live at home. Nora could block her mom's calls, but doesn't. She chooses to let them go through even though it interrupts her work.  Nora lives in CC; why? She could have moved away to get some autonomy. Heck, even Barry and Iris went away to college outside of CC.

I'm not asking Nora to undo a lifetime of habits, but Nora has room to accept responsibility for the level of control Iris has in her life. As much as Nora chaffes at Iris' overprotectiveness, it's also a warm blanket she's grown accustomed to, but like all security blankets or toys, we have to grow up and put them away. Nora chose not to do this until she found out about the chip. And this proves she had it in her all along to choose to stand up for herself. 

I'm still banking on future Iris' explaining why she's so overprotective, but Nora is the one who allows Iris' behavior to continue when she has options. I'm not saying the options are great or easy or perfect, but she has them, she just chose not to use those options.

Edited April 17, 2019 by adora721

[quarks]

24 minutes ago, adora721 said:

I'll take your word for it that these are all the things a director does, but stand by my POV that DP was set up not to fail. I don't think anything you said contradicts my POV. 

ETA- 5x18 was basically a retelling of the pilot episode of the Flash. It was Barry's origin (even played Gaga's "Poker Face") with bits of Zoom, Trajectory, V9, and a few new things thrown in - all familiar territory to DP.  The sets were mostly pre-existing with some minor tweeks. Tom C. can do Eobard and Sherloque in his sleep. The look and feel of the show is very much a known entity to DP for five seasons in, and the guest stars had minimal screen time and dialogue. In other words, there wasn't a lot of new or strange elements for DP to contend with; she was more than familiar with all the essentials involved. It's like those people who think "The Force Awakens" was new when it was retread of "A New Hope" - the same movie with a few new faces.  Again, they gave DP something very familiar and set her up not to fail.

ETA- While DP has been saying in interviews that she is the first female director on this show, please meet Millicent Shelton; the Black, female director of at least three episodes of the Flash.

And season eight, episode one of Game of Thrones was basically a retelling of the pilot episode of Game of Thrones, giving David Nutter (who directed some previous GoT episodes, as well as episodes of Arrow and Flash) something very familiar.

It was also, according to everyone involved, at least ten times more expensive, involved 2000 additional extras, about forty more horses, some helicopter and drone shooting (which the pilot most definitely did not have), more stunt scenes, far more characters, a much heftier CGI budget, and scenes with live fire. It also was a much longer shoot, despite running about 8 minutes shorter than the pilot. Nutter is on record saying it was one of the hardest shoots he's ever done - in part because of the need for callback shots/scenes.

Again, I absolutely agree that DP was set up not to fail - because, as I said, every director on Flash (and Game of Thrones, for that matter) is set up not to fail. 

What I do object to is your implication that DP somehow received preferential, easy treatment compared to other Flash directors. She did not. 

Did the guest stars have minor roles? Two of them, yes. The other? No. She had more than six minutes of screentime - the third leading screentime in this episode, after Jessica Parker Kennedy and Tom Cavanagh. 

Were the sets mostly pre-existing? Well, yes. As I've been screaming since season 1 of Flash and season 3 of Arrow, the Arrowverse consistently (and badly) reuses sets and props, often barely redressing them, if at all in virtually every episode of the show. 

All Flash directors work with pre-existing sets.

But that's exactly where DP had a challenge, because unlike most Flash directors, she couldn't just reuse the standing sets - she had to redress them, within budget. In the case of the "Run, Barry, Run" set, that wasn't just minor tweaks - that was redressing most of the set (while ensuring that the audience could still recognize it as Star Labs) and then redoing the lighting and spending a minimum of two hours, more probably four, on lighting tests, thanks to the decision to have Nora stand and look at LIT COSTUME DISPLAYS/COMPUTER DISPLAYS. Lighting on the set changes what the camera sees and how the light falls on an actor's face, so, this takes a lot of tweaking. They also borrowed some props from the Arrow Cave for that redressed set, which meant they had to schedule that entire setup/shooting around Arrow's filming.

The Gideon Time room? Also a major redressing - helped by borrowing props from Arrow and Supergirl, granted, but still, changing the props that much meant, again, lots of lighting tests to ensure consistency with previous episodes of Flash, plus stand in/doubles/blocking to check the camera stuff long before Jessica Parker Kennedy got in there.

And this is primarily what a director does - that is, yes, they spend time meeting with the writers/discussing the script, then working with production people (who on Flash are often the same people, but....let's try to get off that extremely fraught topic for now), and sure, they work with actors, but most of their work involves coordinating the overall look/sound of a show, which means blocking shots, working with set designers, and working with lighting. Given the set redresses and the future setting, this was more work than most of the Flash directors have done this season. 

So, yeah, I fully agree that she was set up not to fail - but not because she somehow got special treatment. She was set up not to fail because all television directors are set up not to fail. This is not an industry interested in wasting money.  I also don't think this was the most amazing directorial debut of all time - indeed, my main criticism is that she didn't add that much of a distinctive touch to the episode. 

But she didn't get an easier episode than others, either.

[adora721]

26 minutes ago, quarks said:

What I do object to is your implication that DP somehow received preferential, easy treatment compared to other Flash directors. She did not. 

We have to agree to disagree then. Basically, all DP had to do was watch the old episodes that 5x18 was based on and choose to do what the more experienced directors did. Look at the framing of the shot when Nora woke up in the hospital to "Poker Face" playing. DP framed it exactly like the pilot episode of the Flash. This isn't treading new ground or making her own mark. This is reusing previous work from other directors. Again, that's another way they set DP up to not fail. I didn't say she got special treatment, but that they used a very similar plot, very similar characters and sets that DP already knew, which makes her decisions as a director much easier.

ETA: I don't watch GoT, just know a bit about it from friends and some clips.

Edited April 17, 2019 by adora721

[adora721]

24 minutes ago, quarks said:

indeed, my main criticism is that she didn't add that much of a distinctive touch to the episode

See,  on this, I can agree.

[BkWurm1]

51 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Have to respectfully disagree here. 25 isn't so young at all.

You pointed out that Nora has a PHd which normally takes people like twice as long as a bachelor's degree..  (Average is 8 years but the actual work would take at least 4-5)  Since Nora seems to be done at a relatively young age, she likely was a bit of a prodigy and or she's only just got out of school  and this is her first job.  

Even under normal college circumstances, 25 would only be 3 years out of school (and the average to finish a bachelor's degree is six years these days making it 1) and there would be time between finishing school and getting a job shrinking that time as well.  And I'm pretty sure the majority of people looking back at who they were at 25 would not say they'd finished growing up and maturing but everyone gets to have their own opinions.  When I was 25 I'm sure I thought I was quite mature and grown up too.  

Quote

Nora still lives at home, why? Does she have student loans to pay off? Highly unlikely since her mom runs a media empire, which means she's loaded.  Nora chooses to live at home. Nora could block her mom's calls, but doesn't. She chooses to let them go through even though it interrupts her work.  Nora lives in CC; why? She could have moved away to get some autonomy. Heck, even Barry and Iris went away to college outside of CC.

I'm not asking Nora to undo a lifetime of habits, but Nora has room to accept responsibility for the level of control Iris has in her life. As much as Nora chaffes at Iris' overprotectiveness, it's also a warm blanket she's grown accustomed to, but like all security blankets or toys, we have to grow up and put them away. Nora chose not to do this until she found out about the chip. And this proves she had it in her all along to choose to stand up for herself. 

The situation you offer Nora is blocking her mother from contacting her and moving out of town.  Yes this is what she did when she found out that she'd been lied to her whole life about who her father was and had her very body taking out of her control but if cutting someone out of your life is the only way to "stand up" for one's self, can you not see why Nora would NOT want to pull that trigger until the very worst of the truth came out?  Cutting Iris out of her life for smothering her but not being toxic or abusive seems a pretty harsh recommendation.  Does it make no sense as to why Nora would try to exert independence while still living with loving but misguided overprotection?  

How Iris treated her clearly irritated her but the solution you point out seems far too harsh even if it means Nora not moving to full maturity yet.  

Quote

I'm still banking on future Iris' explaining why she's so overprotective, but Nora is the one who allows Iris' behavior to continue when she has options. I'm not saying the options are great or easy or perfect, but she has them, she just chose not to use those options.

No one is saying anyone's behavior is totally ideal, but is it understandable?  If Iris's overprotection is forgivable and understandable based on what shaped Iris, why isn't Nora allowed the same latitude and understanding?  

Edited April 17, 2019 by BkWurm1

[ComicFan777]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Even under normal college circumstances, 25 would only be 3 years out of school (and the average to finish a bachelor's degree is six years these days making it 1) and there would be time between finishing school and getting a job shrinking that time as well.  And I'm pretty sure the majority of people looking back at who they were at 25 would not say they'd finished growing up and maturing but everyone gets to have their own opinions.  When I was 25 I'm sure I thought I was quite mature and grown up too. 

Just want to add...recent studies have found that the brain matures in their 30s which could also explain why some adults act like teenagers well out of their teens.

[rmontro]

Dang, Barry acting like a dick two weeks in a row.  At this point, I'm all for giving the show over to the Adventures of Nora, and sending Barry away in some Crisis-type event.

If Barry wants to blame someone, he should blame Thawne, it seems clear (or at least likely) that he was manipulating her.  He's done something that she doesn't know about, but I really hope he's not going to be the big bad next season.  

What was with all those lightning bolt sessions?  Are they using torture in the penal system in the future?

[adora721]

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

No one is saying anyone's behavior is totally ideal, but is it understandable?  If Iris's overprotection is forgivable and understandable based on what shaped Iris, why isn't Nora allowed the same latitude and understanding?  

I believe I stated that Iris' issues are Iris' responsibility and Nora's issues are her own.  Both are understandable.  But 25 is still 25, child prodigy or not. Nora is being trusted to solve crimes that impact people's lives; that's a lot of responsbility and a grown up job. She's mature enough to stand up to her mom and establish her own life at 25 years of age.

I only listed a few options for overcoming Iris' overprotectiveness, but I'm sure there are others. Moving away isn't punishment or cutting Iris out of her life, it's just a life choice to live elsewhere and is  just as valid as staying close to home.  She could still have a relationship with her mom if she lived out of the state, but Iris' couldn't just drop by any time. And I meant blocking Iris' calls during the work hours, not all the time.

And yes, cutting Iris out temporarily would be a valid response if it led to greater or faster maturity in Nora. Even if she just cut out Iris for a year or so, cutting that umbilicus may be just what mother and daughter need. After all, a parent's job is to enable their children to survive and thrive without them. Iris' won't be around forever. 

Edited April 17, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

I don't understand how the hairstylists on this show are so unimaginative. Iris looks great anyway, but it could have been better if they had a different haircut for 2049 Iris. Or even an updo if there wasn't enough in the wig budget. Something to visually show time had passed and she is a different person.

[Lambsilencer]

3 hours ago, adora721 said:

ETA- While DP has been saying in interviews that she is the first female director on this show, please meet Millicent Shelton; the Black, female director of at least three episodes of the Flash. She directed "Welcome to Earth-2" (one of my favorites). Now, she had the challenge of creating a retro and a futuristic world on another Earth. That's a real challenge, which set the precedent for DP to follow.

Per an interview with Entertainment Tonight, it was noted that she was the first actress from the Arrowverse to direct an episode. Aside from Millicent Shelton, there have been several female directors on all the Arrowverse shows - Alexandra La Roche, Andi Armaganian, Sarah Boyd, just to name a few for "The Flash". Kristin Windell directed this week's "Arrow" episode - fitting, since it was female-centric.

As for Danielle directing, I think she did a very decent job - nothing that another director could not have done, but certainly not worse than any other. The scenes with Thawne (especially where she was using the reflections to some nice effect), as well as the lighting, framing and staging of the more futuristic-looking sets in 2049 was nice to look at. She does have a good eye for framing and camerawork - even though she surely had some help from the DP. 
BTW, per the interview, she completed Warner Bros. TVs nine-week directors course, which was taught by veteran directors Mary Lou Belli and Bethany Rooney. I think that paid off.

Where she fell a bit short was in directing the actors. There were some overacting moments between Jessica Parker Kennedy and Kathryn Gallagher that would have needed some toning down as well as better timing. But overacting is a bit of a problem with Danielle herself as well. She tends to be a bit too "lively" with her gestures and facial expressions occasionally.
And the editing was sometimes a bit too generic. More than once, she just used just two "over-shoulder" shots cutting back and forth to create a dialog scene. A bit more variety would have helped to make those scenes look a bit more dynamic and engaging. And there were some sequences where the editing felt a bit "off" in terms of dynamic and continuity. But that is happening with other directors, too. So maybe that was not even her doing.

But, as I said, it was a very decent directorial debut. She'll be back behind the camera, for sure.

Greets
Lambsilencer

Edited April 18, 2019 by Lambsilencer

[adora721]

30 minutes ago, Lambsilencer said:

Per an interview with Entertainment Tonight, it was noted that she was the first actress from the Arrowverse to direct an episode.

I've seen that recent/current ET interview. ETA: Correction: I'm talking about a convention (#hvffsanjose2018 ) earlier this year or late last year at which she was called the first female director for the Flash, not the Arrowverse, but she didn't correct the statement. Kinda like how a magazine called her "The leading lady of the Flash", but she didn't correct that either. People did tweet to DP about the false statement. Good for her for not continuing to support that falsehood.

Edited April 18, 2019 by adora721

[mxc90]

At what age did Iris put the chip in Nora? Is there tech that could tell if the baby has the speed force or was Nora speeding around the crib and Iris put a stop to it?

Did the villains get a cermony and give a speech as part of their induction into the" Hall of Villains"?

Why was Reverse Flash's history not there? And where was the secret camera hiding to film footage of Zoom and Trajectory? 

Who is the other person to visit Thawne in past 15 years?  

Such a waste of Godspeed to be defeated so easily. Embarrssing!

Bug and Byte got runner's cramps after 10 minutes. The criminals of the future need to be in better shape.

If Sherloque told the group from the start, would they have believed him?

Did the other cops recognize Nora?

Edited April 18, 2019 by mxc90

[mac123x]

I was really expecting Thawne to say "Hello, Clarise".

Decent-ish story, but it was going over a lot of information that we already knew, like Nora resenting Iris for chipping her.  

[phoenics]

It was nice of TPTB to give DP something easy to direct.  It basically copied beats from the pilot and was pretty simplistic in terms of plot - it was 100% linear, no subplots, etc. and the plot line itself had interesting story elements.

I had some issues with the episode and the direction in certain scenes though:

1. Barry yelling at Iris was unacceptable.  He has never yelled at her like that.  Ever.  Not even when he said "I AM your best friend." in Season 1.  And in that scene, they were ALONE and Iris was giving as good as she got.  In this scene, Iris wasn't even the person he was mad at and he screamed at her - in front of the whole damn team.  What's worse, Joe West was standing right there and he said NOTHING and didn't even look fazed at how Barry yelled at Iris.  That's not how a husband should talk to his wife (or vice versa) - and he especially shouldn't do it with NO ONE calling him on the carpet for it.  I believe Barry was righteous in his anger at Nora and he was justified in his anger - but turning that on his wife was really horrible and way out of character.  In similar scenes where Barry looks like he's gonna yell, he always bites it back.  Always.  And in this case, Iris didn't deserve that.  She certainly didn't deserve it in front of the whole team.
2. The team should have left the room the moment Nora was called out.  They were just standing around watching Barry yell at Iris and Barry and Iris read the journal - as though they belonged there.  The ONLY people I would have been okay with staying would have been Joe and maybe Cecile, because they are both FAMILY.  Caitlin and Cisco and Ralph needed to excuse themselves - I don't care if C&C knew Thawne.  This was clearly a family moment and it was just stupid to have the team there just because this show wanted to make sure TF had screen time (because aside from one Cisco line, they said nothing and contributed nothing).  When Sherloque left, they should have left too.  The minute Barry started yelling at Iris, IRIS should have demanded they leave.  But this damn show doesn't ever want to allow Iris to have any boundaries (she's expected to be friends with someone who tried to kill her), so .... 
3. Barry dumped Nora off in the future without Iris' knowledge or consent.  I hope she rips from from A$$ to appetite and puts him on the couch.  Even though I get how mad Barry is - he's still trusting the person who teamed up with Savitar to kill Iris.  And no, Caitlin was fully aware of what she was doing - the whole , but it was KF doesn't fly here, no matter how much the show keeps trying to absolve her of any wrongdoing - ESPECIALLY since Barry is fine trusting KF and she's NEVER apologized or shown why she can be trusted NOT to try to kill Iris or anyone else in the future.  Oh and Barry also showed more anger and rage at Wally for not telling them he was seeing savitar in confusing visions he didn't understand (which was an unintentional mistake), than he was at Caitlin for stealing a piece of the SStone (and doing it INTENTIONALLY).  But he rips Wally to pieces for his mistake and Caitlin gets a "it's okay, you didn't mean anything by it" instead.  Barry is a hypocrite for this.
4. Nora's friend (I call her Caitlo) was a perfect mix of Caitlin and Cisco - both in looks and character.  It was kinda eerie how much that actress looked like Cisco sans mustache in a Caitlin wig.
5. What a colossal waste of Godspeed.
6. Nora is hopelessly immature.
7. I don't recognize Joe or Barry anymore.  I can't get over Barry yelling at Iris and Joe just standing there.
8. This season is a hot mess.
9. I've barely posted in weeks here because this show is just ... blech.
10. Thank God there is a new EP/Showrunner.

Also - folks thinking they needed to age Iris more clearly haven't met that many black women in their 50s and 60s.  Jada Pinkett's mom is a prime example.  Hell - look at Gayle King - I've met her in person (hanging out at Oprah's house) and these women do NOT look anywhere close to their age.  The only thing they could have done for Iris that would have been more realistic was to add a little weight to her - not much, just a little.  And to show her with a shorter haircut.  OR show that Iris has gone natural (that means gone back to her natural chemical free hair for those who don't know what that means).  But I actually thought her eyes were too old looking.  Look at Regina Hall, who is 48.  If Iris is meant to be in her late twenties, then 25 years would put her in her mid-fifties.  Her eyes actually had too many wrinkles for that.  My mother is 75 and she has less wrinkles around her eyes than that.  

Anyway - this show irritates me.  Barry has been reduced to a side character on his own show.  Iris and Barry interact for the first time in a TON of episodes and this is what we get?  LOL - WTAF.

Edited April 18, 2019 by phoenics

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

I don't understand how the hairstylists on this show are so unimaginative. Iris looks great anyway, but it could have been better if they had a different haircut for 2049 Iris. Or even an updo if there wasn't enough in the wig budget. Something to visually show time had passed and she is a different person.

I was fine that they did the minimum to age her. They put in some gray streaks and did something with her eyes. I don't want her looking too old.

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

We are shaped into who we are by those around us.  25 is SOOOOOOO freaking young still. It's naive to think one can undo a lifetime of habits and developed personality traits that quickly.  

 In her life we do see that she had made strides for her independence.  She tried to set boundaries with her mother and they were not being respected to the point of Iris getting the Flash museum to broadcast she should call her mom like Nora was some lost child.  

And given Iris's confusion about the vid messaging not working and sounding so surprised that she was at the museum again, I'm not even sure that Iris knew for sure Nora was at the museum when she had her paged.  The person paging her wasn't certain either.  Probably means Iris called around everywhere.  CC Jitters probably paged her as well.  

Iris isn't treating her like an adult and since no one else dared tell her the truth I have to believe it's not a unique experience and expecting Nora would be able to simply shake off a life time of interaction and with no guidance or years of hard work just be a completely adjusted mature adult with no sign of her past affecting her personality or choices is IMO expecting too much.  

Nora has a life time of self doubt and second guessing in addition to having been coddled and treated like a child even while she was trying to have her independence.  She's still trying to get the adults in her life at that point to accept that she had grown up.  If she's still acting like a teen it's because she is still pushing back against being treated like that kid.  It's all she knows.  And that's the mindset she still took with her even around people that would have treated her like an adult, but that's not what she knows.  

And honestly, Barry and his emotional knee jerk reaction to her is incredibly immature too so I guess it runs in the family.   

Hmmm.  But Joe very much infantilized Iris growing up (Joe literally killed career paths for Iris and was pretty overbearing in the pilot towards her) and Iris managed to be a well adjusted adult in spite of it.  No excuses for the writers writing Nora like she's a child.

[Trini]

15 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I was fine that they did the minimum to age her. They put in some gray streaks and did something with her eyes. I don't want her looking too old.

I didn't need her to look 'old', just different. Iris has her long hair down 98% of the time, this was an opportunity to change it up.

[BkWurm1]

32 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Hmmm.  But Joe very much infantilized Iris growing up (Joe literally killed career paths for Iris and was pretty overbearing in the pilot towards her) and Iris managed to be a well adjusted adult in spite of it.  No excuses for the writers writing Nora like she's a child.

Iris didn't grow up an only child. Very different dynamic.  Plus while Joe kept her from Police work, we don't know of anything else he kept her from doing and Barry was always there to support, encourage and believe in her.  

Also, people do come with different innate personalities.  A lot of what Nora gets ripped on for immaturity is actually insecurity and timidness.  She has tended to defer to those that have more confidence and certainty even as she has tried to express herself.  She avoided talking to anyone about why she was upset with Iris in any timeline but since all that stuff was resolved, I don't think Nora has acted anymore like a child than anyone else on the show. 

Now Barry on the other hand, yeah, he was the one flipping out and acting rashly cause he can't control his emotions, confronting Thawne and whining about what he lost when he was the one throwing Nora away.  I mean, when Eobard is the voice of compassion and sanity you have a problem.   

Edited April 18, 2019 by BkWurm1

[BkWurm1]

14 minutes ago, Trini said:

I didn't need her to look 'old', just different. Iris has her long hair down 98% of the time, this was an opportunity to change it up.

It seems like a no brainer to put her hair up.  Maybe there was some behind the scenes reason why it didn't happen. Or maybe the grey wasn't noticeable enough when it was up.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

We have to agree to disagree then. Basically, all DP had to do was watch the old episodes that 5x18 was based on and choose to do what the more experienced directors did. Look at the framing of the shot when Nora woke up in the hospital to "Poker Face" playing. DP framed it exactly like the pilot episode of the Flash. This isn't treading new ground or making her own mark. This is reusing previous work from other directors. Again, that's another way they set DP up to not fail. I didn't say she got special treatment, but that they used a very similar plot, very similar characters and sets that DP already knew, which makes her decisions as a director much easier.

ETA: I don't watch GoT, just know a bit about it from friends and some clips.

The most difficult, time-consuming shot, as well as one of the most expensive in The Last Jedi?

According to director Rian Johnson, nope, not any of the battle scenes, or any of the intense emotional character scenes, or the major lightsaber sequence. It was the major tracking shot in the Canto Bright sequence - a sequence that was taken, frame for frame, from the 1929 silent film Wings.

I cannot repeat this enough: framing elements precisely the way they were framed in previous episodes is not easier. It's more difficult and thus more expensive/time consuming. Despite this, frequently demanded by studios to ensure visual continuity (possibly the case here), or d) sometimes done deliberately by directors either because they have the Disney money to make an elaborate homage that frankly no one was asking for, or because they are trying to use the repeat framing as a storytelling device (possibly the case here)

Which leads me to this:

"Basically, all DP had to do was watch the old episodes that 5x18 was based on and choose to do what the more experienced directors did."

Well, yes?  This is what directors do, and continue to do, right from people making ultra low budget indy films to single camera 1080 HDTV to Spielberg and anyone still lucky enough to persuade a studio that 70 mm might make money for them yet. They study the work of previous directors, and continue to do so. That is their job.

With television specifically, an incoming director is expected to maintain the look of the show - including the standard framing. The Arrowverse directors I've talked to all watched previous episodes - with one exception, David Nutter, who directed the pilot episodes of Arrow and Flash and was specifically hired to create a distinct look/framing for Flash. So, yes, watching/studying old episodes was part of her job.

It's also not "all" she had to do. When writers/directors/set designers watch shows, especially shows they are going to be working on, they don't just "watch" shows. They study and take notes on things like, what color saturation/filters are generally used for inside shots?  Does the color scheme shift? (Not on this show.) Does Flash use standard heroic camera movement? (Yes.) How many establishing shots per episode? How many stock footage shots per episode? 

On top of this, as mentioned, DP shadowed directors for years (there's reports of her heading off to watch filming on Arrow as far back as season 3 when she wasn't needed on Flash) took a director's course at WB, and took at least one mandatory official Director's Guild orientation program.

In terms of her directorial decisions - without seeing the final pre-production script or the network script (that is, the version before DP added director's notes - the hell that is Final Draft, which Berlanti Productions uses, incorporates those into the shooting script) - it's impossible to know if that shot of Nora's face was the idea of the writers, DP, Jessica Parker Kennedy, the camera operators, or the showrunners/studio/network.

But it at least got showrunner/studio approval, since although it's not a particularly difficult shot on its own, setting up the framing to match would have been trickier and more time consuming, aka, money from the studio. Presumably she found a way to save money elsewhere. 

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

I've seen that recent/current ET interview. ETA: Correction: I'm talking about a convention (#hvffsanjose2018 ) earlier this year or late last year at which she was called the first female director for the Flash, not the Arrowverse, but she didn't correct the statement. Kinda like how a magazine called her "The leading lady of the Flash", but she didn't correct that either. People did tweet to DP about the false statement. Good for her for not continuing to support that falsehood.

It would frankly be lovely for all concerned if panel moderators would do their research in advance and avoid this sort of crap, but, well, in my personal experience, they don't.  What you're describing (aka a moderator getting it wrong and me failing to correct it) has happened to me at least four times. FUN TIMES I TELL YOU. 

This happens all the time. I've seen moderators describe Mark Hamill as a voice actor for Marvel's the Joker (the audience laughed), mispronounce names, get awards wrong, get book titles wrong, confuse actors and/or the shows/films they've been on, and so on. Sometimes this stuff gets corrected on the panel, sometimes it doesn't. 

In terms of the magazine stuff, really not sure why we are holding DP responsible for what a magazine says about her? Or why she needs to issue a correction? That's on the magazine, surely? And if it's "people tweet at DP" - once you get more than 100 things tweeted at you per day you stop paying attention.

I think there's plenty of valid things to criticize DP for - her acting leaps to the top of my personal list. But this seems to be criticizing her for things other people have said about her, something she doesn't really have any control over. Not sure that's entirely fair? 

6 minutes ago, phoenics said:

It was nice of TPTB to give DP something easy to direct.  It basically copied beats from the pilot and was pretty simplistic in terms of plot - it was 100% linear, no subplots, etc. and the plot line itself had interesting story elements.

This episode wasn't 100% linear. It moved back and forth from the present day to the future and then back and forth again. 

#

Out of curiosity, I went back to see if anyone had complained that Tom Cavanagh had been set up not to fail/given something easy to direct back in episode 508, "What's Past is Prologue," another episode with no subplots which reused several shots/framing/set designs from earlier episodes.

No, interestingly enough.

Plenty of other complaints, but not that one.

[phoenics]

38 minutes ago, quarks said:

Out of curiosity, I went back to see if anyone had complained that Tom Cavanagh had been set up not to fail/given something easy to direct back in episode 508, "What's Past is Prologue," another episode with no subplots which reused several shots/framing/set designs from earlier episodes.

No, interestingly enough.

Plenty of other complaints, but not that one.

I didn't even know he'd directed that one. 

He must have forgotten to make sure we knew he was the first ever <insert something here> to direct a show?  Kinda like how DP kept reminding us of her debut by repeatedly saying she was the first ever female director of an Arrowverse show?  Even though ... she ... wasn't ... and she erased other women directors, including Millicent Shelton, a black woman (well, she's very good at erasing them when it suits her, isn't she?).  

First female director, the leading lady of The Flash... it's hard to keep track of these incidents where she cannot POSSIBLY be responsible for all of these "gosh darn honest mistakes and misunderstandings".

Edited April 18, 2019 by phoenics

[Starry]

8 hours ago, phoenics said:

1. I don't recognize Joe or Barry anymore.  I can't get over Barry yelling at Iris and Joe just standing there.

It is not the first time that people have been harsh to Iris and nobody came to her aid or defense. Barry has snapped back at her or others when frustrated or in pain before. The yelling was too much* and it looks like it's going to continue next week with the exception that this time Iris is being allowed to yell back at him and the team is not around to witness their argument. I don't mind this kind of angst but I demand a good resolution.

*I didn't even like Grant's acting in that scene. Too dramatic. Too forced.

I think we wouldn't be having this reaction to Joe and Barry's behavior if JLM hadn't been absent for most of the season and the writers had given Barry and Iris more than two quick scenes alone in the last few months.

I am glad that I was wrong about my prediction of Caitlin being the one to convince Barry to give Nora a chance.

I think the episode was decent. Wig and make-up aside, I am glad future Iris showed up. Barry's message to Nora was very sweet and so was the picture of Barry and Iris with baby Nora.

7 hours ago, quarks said:

In terms of the magazine stuff, really not sure why we are holding DP responsible for what a magazine says about her? Or why she needs to issue a correction? That's on the magazine, surely? And if it's "people tweet at DP" - once you get more than 100 things tweeted at you per day you stop paying attention.

I think there's plenty of valid things to criticize DP for - her acting leaps to the top of my personal list. But this seems to be criticizing her for things other people have said about her, something she doesn't really have any control over. Not sure that's entirely fair?

I am not aware of the "first woman director" claims but it is fair to hold DP accountable for the magazine issue. She's not responsible for what the magazine says but she is responsible for what she posts on her personal Instagram account. The cover of the magazine went straight to her Instagram page. DP is well aware that the leading lady title doesn't belong to her but let her followers believe otherwise by promoting the magazine cover. Her acting is definitely not at the top of my personal list of things to criticize her for. Bad and mediocre actors show up on television all the time. Not all of them are known to erase their coworkers.

7 hours ago, quarks said:

Out of curiosity, I went back to see if anyone had complained that Tom Cavanagh had been set up not to fail/given something easy to direct back in episode 508, "What's Past is Prologue," another episode with no subplots which reused several shots/framing/set designs from earlier episodes.

No, interestingly enough.

Plenty of other complaints, but not that one.

I am taking you at face value when you say that DP has not gotten special treatment but only a couple people have said that she's been set up not to fail and they are huge Candice fans. If there's bias, it's not a man vs. woman thing. It has to do with the fact that Danielle has been disrespectful to Candice while Tom hasn't.

[adora721]

11 hours ago, quarks said:

Out of curiosity, I went back to see if anyone had complained that Tom Cavanagh had been set up not to fail/given something easy to direct back in episode 508, "What's Past is Prologue," another episode with no subplots which reused several shots/framing/set designs from earlier episodes.

No, interestingly enough.

As I said before, I don't normally comment on the work of the directors including Tom C.  And it seems we agree that DP brought nothing new to the episode; we also agree that directors are not set up to fail. We also agree that to make continuity happen, directors watch previous episodes. I'm not sure why my saying DP was not set up to fail is viewed as an insult or a complaint. I'm glad she shadowed other directors - that was a wise thing to do.

JJ Abrams had to retread all the same beats for "The Force Awakens" that were in "A New Hope"; I don't think he was given "special treatment", but if he had 1000 decisions to make, that was diminished to say 600 (for the sake of argument) because it was similar and familiar territory. JJ has even framed shots in his "Star Trek" reboots similar to shots from "Empire Strikes Back". So, reusing a director's work isn't new.  DP did the same.

No matter how many things she had to do, her decisions were significantly reduced because she was working with familiar territory (cast, crew, sets) and doing a retread of the pilot, "Enter Zoom", "Trajectory", and a few other episodes that she's extremely familiar with. Saying this is not an insult or complaint. New things are harder to do than familiar things; that's just logic.

As for DP and the panel moderator: I point this out, not because it doesn't happen to others, but to show a pattern that DP has of diminishing others to uplift herself. As for DP and the magazine: She had a responsibility to not let incorrect information be put out into the public sphere about the lead actress of her show, Candice Patton. However, DP chose not to correct the magazine because it benefits her. It was an online magazine, so changes would have been relatively easier than a print magazine. 

I didn't see "The Last Jedi", so I cannot comment on it.

[Trini]

33 minutes ago, adora721 said:

No matter how many things she had to do, her decisions were significantly reduced because she was working with familiar territory (cast, crew, sets) and doing a retread of the pilot, "Enter Zoom", "Trajectory", and a few other episodes that she's extremely familiar with. Saying this is not an insult or complaint. New things are harder to do than familiar things; that's just logic.

It's new to her, because this time she was working in the director's seat; and for the first time.

---

As for me, directing is something that I don't normally notice or comment on; unless it's extremely good or extremely bad. Or extremely different. (And for a TV show, it's probably something that shouldn't be noticed?) So this episode was fine.

[BkWurm1]

47 minutes ago, adora721 said:

No matter how many things she had to do, her decisions were significantly reduced because she was working with familiar territory (cast, crew, sets) and doing a retread of the pilot, "Enter Zoom", "Trajectory", and a few other episodes that she's extremely familiar with. Saying this is not an insult or complaint. New things are harder to do than familiar things; that's just logic.

From reading through Quark's explanation I think I would have to disagree with you about the degree of difficulty she faced.  And everything in the future scenes would be new of course which was the majority of the episode even if it is following a framework.

I thought DP did a perfectly acceptable job and I have seen so many direct where it intruded into the story so I'd call not being offensive a success.    

Edited April 18, 2019 by BkWurm1

[GHScorpiosRule]

On 4/16/2019 at 10:31 PM, SimoneS said:

They did the one thing that I dreaded that they would do; they made Iris come off as the bad guy/bad mother to justify Nora turning to Thawne. I HATE this! Nora turning to Thawne was indefensible, IMO, stop trying to put it on Iris! At least, they had Barry banish Nora to the future so all usual the online fandom hate isn't being targeted at Iris. Small mercies, I suppose.

I, on the other hand, enjoyed the hell out of Barry telling Nora the harsh truth about her lies, taking her back to the future, and telling her to stay there. It was only topped by his brief confrontation with Thawne. Best scenes of the episode. 

I find it impossible to believe that Nora was able to stop Godspeed after one lesson from Thawne. I stopped caring about Nora around the fourth or fifth episode and her back story hasn't changed that. If anything it reinforces that she is an idiot. Going back to stop Cicada was her idea? Right. Thawne is playing her like the fool that she is.

I didn't see that Iris came off as the bad guy at all. I'm conflicted over this, because as usual, this stupid show keeps changing what was the set up, or what was known. That is, for me at least, I was under the impression that Nora knew that Barry was The Flash; that she at least knew him when she was too young to remember, and that as others have stated, and Nora HERSELF stated, she returned to prevent him from vanishing, but the ambiguous ending of the cross-over makes me doubt even that. Anyway, NOW, it's all Cicada, and the reason Nora went to the past was because she found out that not only was Barry her dad, but he was also the Flash.

It's beyond stupid that the museum did not have anything about Thawne's crimes. And he's been ready to die in an hour's time since the episode we found out he was the one Nora was working with. At least, I remember seeing that clock ticking down. I guess it's all timey-whimey nonsense, that Nora just keeps returning to a specific point in time so that it's frozen? Because Thawne should be dead already. So, I can now see why she went to him, considering Heblin and the writers keep changing the reasons, but as Barry said, after? When she had other resources, yet still kept going back to him, especially after learning he'd murdered her namesake? Yeah, yeah, Barry had that (to use @BkWurm1's word (cuz I like it!)) speechifying to Nora that even Thawne deserved a second chance, makes him look the ultimate hypocrite going all ballistic now.

At this point, I'm just watching, not invested, to see how they untangle this twisted morass of a season.

And I think I'll just sit at my table for one because I didn't see Barry's raising his voice to Iris with three or four words, when Iris was trying to tell him that Nora must have had a reason for lying or whatever, as outrageous, uncalled for, or out of character. It's not as if he was yelling at her for an extended period of time, blaming her, or gesticulating with his hands, screaming and whatnot. He wasn't putting her down or denigrating her. He was upset and hurt; and yes, felt betrayed.  Couples raise voices; they fight; they argue; friends argue; friends fight. 

That said, while I loved Barry putting Nora in the pipeline, I didn't like him just zapping her back to the future the way he did and what he said. But, speaking from my own experience, I can see why he did it, because my parents have said things in heat of anger and hurt, so why not Barry, who is so very emotional?

But seriously with the "I'm late, I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date?" What, is Alice in Wonderland Nora's favorite story? Barry was much more endearing and charming as a continuously late CSI from Arrow's backdoor pilot and the official one, than this attempt to show that Nora is just like her daddy. Major 🙄🙄 from me.

Maybe it was the mayor who approved funds for the Flash Museum? After all, that's what happened in "Flash and Substance" in JLU.

I'm sticking to the bitter, bitter end because I find Grant just so endearing. Hey, I stuck to the bitter end of Smallville due to Tom Welling's purtiness. Why change now?

[BkWurm1]

1 minute ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Nora HERSELF stated, she returned to prevent him from vanishing, but the ambiguous ending of the cross-over makes me doubt even that. Anyway, NOW, it's all Cicada, and the reason Nora went to the past was because she found out that not only was Barry her dad, but he was also the Flash.

I agree with you about her reason for returning.  I'm confused if she is hiding that from him still or if the showrunners changed lanes about it.  I don't think they ever stated that she had grown up knowing he was the Flash but that was at first my impression because we found out that she was obsessed with the Flash and the museum and it made sense if he was her dad.  I am ok though with her just being naturally drawn to him and all the heroic work.  

[adora721]

9 minutes ago, Trini said:

52 minutes ago, adora721 said:

No matter how many things she had to do, her decisions were significantly reduced because she was working with familiar territory (cast, crew, sets) and doing a retread of the pilot, "Enter Zoom", "Trajectory", and a few other episodes that she's extremely familiar with. Saying this is not an insult or complaint. New things are harder to do than familiar things; that's just logic.

It's new to her, because this time she was working in the director's seat; and for the first time.

If you both believe that a director who doesn't know the cast, never watched the show, doesn't know the crew and isn't familiar with the sets has the same degree of difficulty as DP who is completely familiar with all these and more, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

[BkWurm1]

6 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I think I'll just sit at my table for one because I didn't see Barry's raising his voice to Iris with three or four words, when Iris was trying to tell him that Nora must have had a reason for lying or whatever, as outrageous, uncalled for, or out of character. It's not as if he was yelling at her for an extended period of time, blaming her, or gesticulating with his hands, screaming and whatnot. He wasn't putting her down or denigrating her. He was upset and hurt; and yes, felt betrayed.  Couples raise voices; they fight; they argue; friends argue; friends fight. 

I agree.  He was yelling but it wasn't really at Iris, it was about what was going on.  

[SimoneS]

I re-watched the scenes with Barry and Iris and Barry and Nora. They are so much better the second time around. I had been so annoyed thinking that Barry and Iris would instantly forgive Nora and brush her actions under the carpet. Despite giving Nora a chance to explain herself, Iris was obviously hurt and not willing to forgive and forget. Barry's coldness won the day though. I had to wonder, while Nora was sitting in the pipeline, it didn't occur to her to come up with a clearer explanation for lying about working with Thawne. There probably was nothing that would have eased Barry's anger, but still the way she just stood there was ridiculous. Unlike Barry, I don't get the working with Thawne at all, but alright. However, there really is something wrong with her that Nora continued to work with Thawne and that she doesn't seem to understand that her behavior was indefensible and realize how her father would react. Maybe she is accustomed to ignoring and walking over Iris all her life so she figures anything goes.

This has been bad inconsistent storytelling, but the fall out has entertaining. The show didn't wimp out and give Nora a pass, it let Barry go hard at her as she deserves.

One thing, I didn't like JPK's shaking after Barry dumped her. I thought it was a bad acting choice that made Nora seem even more like a thoughtless child playing at being a woman. She has to be almost 30 years old. When is Nora going to grow up?

Edited April 18, 2019 by SimoneS

[TheMasterReborn]

Not sure if Tom C. is having trouble keeping he voices straight, but I thought a couple times Thawne slipped into both Sherloque and Harry's voices.  I don't remember the original Wells/Thawne voice being so raspy. A couple times he definitely seem to speak in a subtle French like accent too.  

Does anyone think Thawne & Sherloque are connected?

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, TheMasterReborn said:

Not sure if Tom C. is having trouble keeping he voices straight, but I thought a couple times Thawne slipped into both Sherloque and Harry's voices.  I don't remember the original Wells/Thawne voice being so raspy. A couple times he definitely seem to speak in a subtle French like accent too.  

Does anyone think Thawne & Sherloque are connected?

Oh, I think either Tom Cavanagh is getting his characters confused in scenes or this is all on purpose. I definitely noticed Thawne slipping into an accent of sorts several times. He was acting like Eobard Thawne-as-Wells, season 2 Harry with his whisper voice, and Sherloque with the accent slipping in.

I decided to watch a couple of season 1 clips to remind myself of how Thawne sounded in season 1. He definitely wasn't a whisperer like he is now. Even in the 100th episode, Eobard Thawne as Harrison Wells suddenly was a whisperer when he really wasn't in season 1. 

I'm just starting to believe that Tom Cavanagh isn't as great of an actor as first perceived. Sure, he can kind of play different characters, but when he has to slip back into a previous one, he doesn't really do a good job. 

But seriously, Tom Cavanagh needs to stop the damn whispering. 

[phoenics]

10 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

And I think I'll just sit at my table for one because I didn't see Barry's raising his voice to Iris with three or four words, when Iris was trying to tell him that Nora must have had a reason for lying or whatever, as outrageous, uncalled for, or out of character. It's not as if he was yelling at her for an extended period of time, blaming her, or gesticulating with his hands, screaming and whatnot. He wasn't putting her down or denigrating her. He was upset and hurt; and yes, felt betrayed.  Couples raise voices; they fight;

Actually - that's not what Iris said.  Barry said, "We can't trust anything she says" and Iris simply says (quietly) "We don't know that".

Then Barry screams "YES WE DO!!"

I fail to see how this is even a "fight" as you attempted to characterize it. Of course Barry had a right to be angry about what Nora did - that was a betrayal.  A stupid one - but still I get why he was so angry. 

But Iris didn't deserve that.  Barry yelling at her like that really bothered me.  It was completely and utterly out of character for him to yell at Iris that way - other characters yes - but never Iris.

With all of this show's faults - especially in the lopsided and poor characterization and treatment of it's black female lead - the one thing we could say was that Barry treats Iris very lovingly.  Perhaps if someone had called Barry out for yelling at her (when it wasn't her fault) I would feel better (like Joe), but this just was allowed to happen with no one checking Barry.  Not even Iris.  No one even reacted on Iris' behalf.  It was like him screaming at her like that was normalized.

That's not okay.  It's racially problematic and I'll happily sit in my woke corner of one calling this shit out.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, phoenics said:

Actually - that's not what Iris said.  Barry said, "We can't trust anything she says" and Iris simply says (quietly) "We don't know that".

Then Barry screams "YES WE DO!!"

I fail to see how this is even a "fight" as you attempted to characterize it. Of course Barry had a right to be angry about what Nora did - that was a betrayal.  A stupid one - but still I get why he was so angry. 

But Iris didn't deserve that.  Barry yelling at her like that really bothered me.  It was completely and utterly out of character for him to yell at Iris that way - other characters yes - but never Iris.

With all of this show's faults - especially in the lopsided and poor characterization and treatment of it's black female lead - the one thing we could say was that Barry treats Iris very lovingly.  Perhaps if someone had called Barry out for yelling at her (when it wasn't her fault) I would feel better (like Joe), but this just was allowed to happen with no one checking Barry.  Not even Iris.  No one even reacted on Iris' behalf.  It was like him screaming at her like that was normalized.

That's not okay.  It's racially problematic and I'll happily sit in my woke corner of one calling this shit out.

How wouldn't it be a fight?  Two people with different opinions heated going back and forth about it.  Barry locks Nora up and says she can't be trusted.  Iris wants to hear her out.  Barry says she can't  be trusted.  Iris disagrees that that's a fact.  Barry says it is.  It's a fight.  

But what I don't get is if as you pointed out, that Barry raises his voice when he's upset to EVERYONE and now to Iris, how is this racially problematic? 

Just cause Barry lost his chill and is lashing out during an unprecedented situation doesn't mean that he's stopped loving Iris or is now being somehow abusive to her. And again, since it's established that him raising his voice when he is upset is in character, the only difference is it now ALSO was in this one incident extended to include his wife. While that may be new, it's also new to him to feel like he needed to cut his future daughter out of his life because she was taking advice from his mortal enemy.  This is uncharted territory.  And clearly Iris and the people around Barry understood he wasn't yelling to be mean to Iris or anyone around him but because he was overwrought and excitable.  

No one was letting Barry be chronically abusive to Iris.  Really don't see how any of this has anything to do with race.  

Edited April 19, 2019 by BkWurm1

[SimoneS]

It just occurred to me, could Iris be the only other person who visited Thawne in 15 years? I could see her going there to confront Thawne. She would want to know if he knew what happened to Barry, if he was dead or trapped in the Speed Force. After all, she wouldn't know which time remnant or version of Thawne this one is.

Edited April 19, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

It just occurred to me, could Iris be the only other person who visited Thawne in 15 years? I could see her going there to confront Thawne. She would want to know if he knew what happened to Barry, if he was dead or trapped in the Speed Force. After all, she wouldn't know which time remnant or version of Thawne this one is.

I was thinking the other visitor had to be a villain, but this is also an interesting possibility!

However, I feel like the other visitor won't be revealed until much later (next season?) because it's just a setup for a future storyline. Either that or the other visitor is related to Thawne's inevitable escape. But who could and would help Reverse Flash?

[phoenics]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

But what I don't get is if as you pointed out, that Barry raises his voice when he's upset to EVERYONE and now to Iris, how is this racially problematic? 

Answering in the race thread.  

Edited April 19, 2019 by phoenics

[SimoneS]

23 minutes ago, Trini said:

I was thinking the other visitor had to be a villain, but this is also an interesting possibility!

However, I feel like the other visitor won't be revealed until much later (next season?) because it's just a setup for a future storyline. Either that or the other visitor is related to Thawne's inevitable escape. But who could and would help Reverse Flash?

I have been thinking that the visitor was Grace, but now... I will continue this thought on the spoiler thread.

[phoenics]

One thing I really did like about this episode was that we saw Central City  and CCPD again.  They really do need to shoot more of the city and shoot in more locations in the city.

Also - I think Barry not really doing much in the way of his job has hurt the show.  Maybe they pivoted because of Jesse Martin's back injury?  We saw much more of the city when Barry/Joe had to investigate crimes.

Edited April 19, 2019 by phoenics

[Lady Calypso]

I think we have talked about Danielle Panabaker's directing and the fandom aspect of it enough. Let's all agree to disagree and move on, please! Thanks!