The Expanse Novels: All with Spoilers

[raven]

Here is our topic to discuss the books all the way through volume 9, Leviathan Falls.  Here there be spoilers!

[Jodithgrace]

I just finished Tiamat's Wrath. I really enjoyed it, though some of the problems were solved a little too easily (explanation in spoilers)  I was satisfied by the resolution, and looking forward to just one more book.

I thought that having Duarte just self destruct was a bit too easy a resolution, though it was brought on by his own hubris. And I never quite understood what happened to the mad scientist doctor. Duarte did something to him to cause him to die, but what exactly? I was surprised to discover that Timothy was Amos, because I had forgotten what happened at the end of the last book. Not sure I like the idea of Zombie Amos (Zamos?) but he seems to be pretty much himself, and I prefer that to dead Amos. Bobbie went out a super hero! Thank heavens the band is back together and in the Rocci by the end. 

 

 

[MissLucas]

Phew, finished - all worried that I would miss a massive thread here before I was done 😉

I enjoyed it more than the last three volumes because we're finally getting to the real question: who are the creeps that destroyed the 'Romans' and created the bullets?

This was basically what I had been waiting for ever since 'Cibola Burn'. Occasionally the books started to feel a bit like watching GoT with lots of stupid fights and intrigues while nobody is caring about ice zombies on the march. It always felt pretty idiotic to me to use the ring gates so carelessly (of course you could argue that's human nature) - 'flying through a dragon's mouth' indeed!

I will never not hate game-theory and I was really happy to see that Laconia trying to implement it with the 'angry gods' went haywire beyond imagination.

Losing Bobbie hurt, I thought I had made it without needing any Kleenex but then the call-sign 'Draper Station' came and the flood gates opened. It's been a while that I cried over the death of a fictional character - so, well done!

I loved Alex and Naomi's reunion on the Roci - all the feels! I actually enjoyed that more than Holden and Naomi's reunion. 

I liked Teresa's journey but I hope we're done now with powerful fathers and rebellious daughters. But I'm glad Muskrat made it and the logistics of a dog on a space-ship were addressed, he!

As for Amos: pretty clear he was Timothy and that he would return as Zombie. Neat timing though. But still creepy, like Cara and Xan. I wonder if Elvi becomes some sort of surrogate mother to them now.

Glad we got rid of Cortàzar - the character had served its purpose. Not so sure we're rid of Duarte - he's still around and dangerous. I guess we'll see what happens with him in the last book.

One thing I thought a tad convenient though was the fact that human brains are apparently of sterner stuff than the Romans' equivalent. But there you go. 

Looking forward to the last book!

Edited April 8, 2019 by MissLucas

[raven]

I have to get this off my chest first - Teresa was annoying.  I'm just tired of teen angst showing up seemingly everywhere lately.  I get it, she was raised in a bubble, had no real friends and her father allowed himself to be contaminated with protomolecule.  I wasn't pleased about her leaving poor Muskrat behind, who had been her only friend.   Yes, it would have been a bit much for her to expect the ship to take him too but I was still annoyed.  I'm actually not really sure she's supposed to be terribly sympathetic, though she gets points for rescuing Holden.  

So I was a little wary before reading this because the description talked about Teresa and the fact that Holden was so old.  However, my annoyance with Teresa aside, I really liked this one.

Bobbie's arc was so satisfying and really true to the character.  Of course she would be concerned with the generations growing up under Laconia's rule and would they want to continue the fight?  The detail of most in the resistance being older was a good one.  I could also relate to Bobbie's inner dialogue about "did I make a difference". 

Holden - I found it kind of amazing that he was planting the seeds for Elvi to hopefully take over way back in Persepolis Rising (he tells Duarte to look for her).  Talk about a long game!  I floved when he stepped in front of Muskrat when Ilich threatened to shoot her.  Yes, I'm one of those people. 

I'm glad we still have Amos, even if it's as a sorta zombie. 

My two favorite POVs were Naomi and Elvi.   Naomi taking over as leader of the underground and leading the fleet into Laconia was very well done.  I've always liked Elvi so I enjoyed her here.  Her working the science and interacting with the military were highlights "Send the underground a fruit basket, I don't care" Ha!  I liked how she tried to protect Teresa and I was moved when she let Cara and Xan out of the cage.

On 4/4/2019 at 2:17 PM, Jodithgrace said:

Duarte did something to him to cause him to die, but what exactly?

Somehow he manipulated atoms,  causing his chest to blow out through his back and I think he destroyed half of his head.  I think it's interesting that Duarte is still around and possibly so submerged in the protomolecule world that he doesn't really focus on anything else.  We know he CAN - Teresa got his attention when she told him Cortàzar wanted her dead.  I'm curious what part he will play in the final book.

Avasarala and Bobbie are my two fave characters so I'm sorry to lose them both.  I do think we have a good set up for the final volume.  Holden and Amos both are aware that the aliens are coming for all of humanity and I am so glad to have everyone together, in whatever state they're in. 

I really do appreciate the universe building.  At one point Naomi tells Alex that she likes to see how the air is contained around her, which honestly kind of freaks me out.  Then again, I've never been in space, hee.  It's those details I like, that get me thinking about what living and working in space would be like.  I'd probably still keep my butt down the gravity well 🙂 but I like thinking about the possibilities.

[whiporee]

Thanks for the thread!

I liked it, but I do have some problems with the world building and the plotlines. Mostly though, this is the second or third time whatever problems there are have been solved by the alien whatevers. Laconia gets most of its power destroyed by the anti-ringers, and Duarte is taken off the table completely by the same thing. The evil doctor gets destroyed -- and the power base shifted -- by Duarte using some sort of telekinetic superpower thing he hadn't shown before. Amos is resurrected  by the zombie-making dogs. And given what we've seen of protomolecule technology, I've got no idea how the standard weapons of the Sol system were even able to take out the building platforms. 

On a character front, I didn't love how Trejo, who has been shown as a sort of noble-but-obedient soldier, quickly stepped in to become as Draconian as Duarte. Likewise with Teresa's tutor, who just became bad for no real reason. And I would have liked to have seen what exactly the rebels were rebelling against. The book said that most things were left alone -- the Laconians put in rules, but for the most part the different parts of human civilization were on their own, still. That had been the case since the books began, except with different overlords, so why were so many so eager to force out Laconia? It would have served us to see some reasons for the kind of displeasure that builds a rebellion. Laconia was, in the end, just an extension of Martian philosophy, so i would have liked to see that displayed a bit more -- I would think Duarte and Laconia would be very popular, especially with the chip Mars has always had on its shoulder. 

Also, one of the things Avasarala said when the gates were proven harmless was that this was the end of the dream of Mars -- that the presence of real worlds would take away the idea of terraforming the planet. I would imagine it would have made life in the belt different, too, that they had places with actual sky, oceans and gravity to live. So I wonder how popular the belt remained, even before Laconia. And did Laconia then try to force migrations? Just a bit of the universe it would have been good to get some better understanding for. 

On the plus side, I would not have though Holden had that kind of cruelty in him toward Teresa, but it was a very cool move. I was sort of surprised that there wasn't any Holden/protomolecule/Miller interaction -- with so much of it nearby, Holden would have been a contact point I'm surprised they avoided. I liked Teresa, as sympathetic as they were making her, had the arrogance of a princess. That was a good trait to build in and one that could have been ignored by pushing her one way or the other. 

Bobbie went out well. Original Amos not as much. And as they go into the last book, I've got no idea who they'd ever think to even stand up against someone who could just make a star go black hole. Duarte's idea at the end of Persolopis -- "storm heaven" -- was proven to not only be futile but disastrous. So i don't know what ZombieAmos was suggesting Holden do at the end Tiamat. Humanity's only real chance is to lay as low as they can for a few millennia and hope everyone can just get along. 

None of these are great works of art, but I thought this one felt rushed, like they were relying too much on magic instead of really working out their characters and stories. They needed a book between this one (but they also needed a book between the last one, too). I imagine they're a little tired of the story (can't blame them), but I do hope they take a deep breath and really work at closing it out instead of having unknowable aliens save the say again.  

[Tachi Rocinante]

A bit disappointed.  Didn't care much for Elvi or Teresa. Duarte was a paper tiger. Not enough Holden. No Miller.

I also figured there would be more ring gate traveling.

They have one book left to wrap this up.  It better be chock full of exposition and not used as a bridge to another series.

[wanderingstar]

Just started reading the novels (I'm about two-thirds of the way through Leviathan Wakes). I've also read one of the short stories (The Butcher of Anderson Station, which I enjoyed). Has anyone here read the rest of the short stories? Do they mostly flesh out characters we already know from the books like The Butcher of Anderson Station, or are they offshoot stories that introduce new characters?

[raven]

8 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Just started reading the novels (I'm about two-thirds of the way through Leviathan Wakes). I've also read one of the short stories (The Butcher of Anderson Station, which I enjoyed). Has anyone here read the rest of the short stories? Do they mostly flesh out characters we already know from the books like The Butcher of Anderson Station, or are they offshoot stories that introduce new characters?

It's a mix:

The Churn provides background on Amos.

The Vital Abyss is about the scientists from Eros, including Cortazar.

Gods of Risk is a Bobbie story; you haven't met Bobbie yet but will in Caliban's War, the second book.

Strange Dogs is about a human family on a different planet from Earth.  What happens in the story provides some background for the later novels.

There's also Drive, about the man who invented the Epstein drive we hear so much about.

Here's an article with a suggested reading order.  I read all of the novellas at once and liked them all to varying degrees (I was least interested in The Vital Abyss) but this may be a help to you.

[wanderingstar]

Thank you, raven. I'm going to finish Leviathan Wakes, then move on to The Churn before I start Caliban's War.

[Katsullivan]

@Gillian Rosh IMO, it's always better to read a series in publication order. It's also what the writers explicitly recommended. 

[wanderingstar]

Got into the show earlier this year, and now I am catching up on my Expanse reading. So far, I've read

• Leviathan Wakes
• Caliban's War
• The Butcher of Anderson Station
• The Churn
• Drive

I've loved all of the above to varying degrees. Leviathan was a bit slow, but once I got into it, I really enjoyed the world building. In Caliban's War, the Bobbie/Chrisjen dynamic was a delight. The Butcher of Anderson Station gave me a fuller picture of Fred Johnson, who is one of my favorite characters. Reading The Churn was hard, but it helps me better understand Amos. And Drive was surprisingly poignant. Just started reading (well, listening to) Abbadon's Gate. I'm only five chapters in, so I'm still setting into the new characters that have been introduced (Bull and Anna). 

I'm just enjoying getting more immersed in this world. 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Gillian Rosh

[raven]

8 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I'm just enjoying getting more immersed in this world. 

I remember  when I started CW and it starts with Mei and Bobbie, I was thinking "who the heck is Bobbie?  where are my characters" and now Bobbie and Chrisjen are my favorite characters.  I love the books to varying degrees (I do have a least favorite); they do a good job of expanding their universe and introducing new people.  Glad you are enjoying it.

[Danny Franks]

I'm halfway through book seven, after putting it off for the longest time, and honestly it's just depressing me. The passage of something like twenty years since the last book has everyone feeling old, creaky, tired or slowly dying, including the Roci herself.

It just isn't particularly fun to read about all these characters, who I really love, coming to the end of their lives. I know they needed this time jump in order to tell the story of Laconia becoming a threat, but it's not really working for me.

The Laconians simply don't seem menacing enough to be a real concern. They're on a par with the Martians of the early books, when it comes to militarism, and the idea of a single strongman replacing the disparate, committee structures of humanity isn't really grabbing me. I don't know, Duarte just doesn't have the presence (either in terms of his personality and menace, or in terms of actually being in the book) to play the role that Ty and Daniel seem to want him to play.

[Haleth]

From all I hear I’m going to skip the 2 most recent books. That’s disappointing. 

[Danny Franks]

Yeah, I finished the seventh book and found it disappointing.

The 'unstoppable enemy, constantly demonstrating new powers and effortlessly beating the supposed heroes' trope is one I simply have no interest in. Right about the time that the Tempest fired about a thousand torpedoes at once and destroyed most of the EMC navy, I actively rolled my eyes.

This whole Laconia plot just feels like (and I hate this phrase) a shark-jumping moment for the series. 

[wanderingstar]

Just finished Abaddon's Gate, and it's my favorite of the novels that I've read so far. I loved all the characters we followed, but especially Bull (RIP). And surprisingly, Melba/Clarissa grew on me. But Anna was by far my favorite character. Maybe it's because I'm a preacher's kid and grew up around people like her, but I loved watching her navigate the increasingly bonkers circumstances - first on the Thomas Prince and then on the Behemoth. When she told off Cortez for siding with Ashford, I may have cheered in my living room.

Already downloaded the audiobook for Cibola Burn, but I'm going to read Gods of Risk first.

[wanderingstar]

Just finished Babylon's Ashes, and I have a question: what exactly was causing the ships to disappear when they tried to enter the ring? I feel like I missed this when listening to the audiobook.

Also, do we see Naomi's son, Filip, after BA?

[MissLucas]

Oh dear, it's been a while. As for the first question - I'm lost, something to do with mass and speed I think. The second one: a resounding NO (and I wish it would stay that way but I'm pretty sure the little twat will resurface before we get to the end).

[Pachengala]

This is the closest thread I could find to put this question so please forgive me if there’s a better place for it—I figured book readers would be the best to ask. I’m currently marathoning the show and am on Season 2, Ep 4, if it makes a difference. 

Anyway, I ‘get’ the protomolecule, but I’m still unclear on what role the radiation plays. Why did they irradiate all those folks on Eros? Seems like just infecting them would do the trick. Thanks in advance! 

[raven]

23 minutes ago, Pachengala said:

Why did they irradiate all those folks on Eros? Seems like just infecting them would do the trick. Thanks in advance! 

Irradiating them caused the protomolecule to grow and spread faster.

[whiporee]

On 10/1/2019 at 4:11 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Just finished Babylon's Ashes, and I have a question: what exactly was causing the ships to disappear when they tried to enter the ring? I feel like I missed this when listening to the audiobook.

Also, do we see Naomi's son, Filip, after BA?

I don't think they know. It's one of the things that the Laconians (you'll meet them soon) are trying to figure out/deal with in the next two books. 

I don't remember hearing from Filip again, but after BA there's a long -- I think 30 year -- time jump. At that point, whatever he became happened a long time ago. 

[wanderingstar]

Finally finished all the books! (I feel a great sense of accomplishment).

Of the last 3 books, Babylon's Ashes is probably my favorite (RIP, Fred). I liked both Persepolis Rising and Tiamat's Wrath, but I dunno...Babylon's Ashes just hit me in a different way.

I wonder what's going to happen with all the proto people on Laconia.

[Katsullivan]

On 11/4/2019 at 6:22 PM, Gillian Rosh said:

Of the last 3 books, Babylon's Ashes is probably my favorite (RIP, Fred). I liked both Persepolis Rising and Tiamat's Wrath, but I dunno...Babylon's Ashes just hit me in a different way.

Fred's death sent me reeling. I knew he was going to die sometime soon (I expected him to die in Nemesis Games) but it still shook me how he died. 

I liked the structural change of Tiamat's Wrath - Holden was no longer a major pov and his motivations and plot were part of the mystery for the reader to solve. I think Persepolis Rising would have been a better book if they had done that too - made other characters take the pov away from Holden.

[whiporee]

Took me two days, but I finished it. I know this thread is announced spoliers, but proceed with caution.  

It was a good book and a pretty good ending to the series. They spent a lot of the book making it seem like they were not going to make Jim the hero in the end, but he was the hero of the series, and he probably deserved to be the one who figured it out and saved the universe. They ran into the problem of too many characters and the nature of the enemy wasn't ever spelled out. Sentient light is the closest I got, or was it just a matter of the other universe just forcing its way through the gates -- that the Builders weren't actual attacking but just leaking into the book's universe. 

I was VERY concerned that they were going the direction of saying Duarte was right, so I was pleased that in the end his plan was working to destroy everyone but him. 

The endings for everyone were a little anti climatic. I was glad book Alex survived show Alex's problems, and in the end he finally chose his family over the Roci's crew. Jim and Naomi's goodbye was just a little bit -- not as much as I'd have liked, but to be honest the entire relationship felt forced all the way through. I would have really liked to have heard what the navigator was going to tell Jim before the Cant was destroyed. I ended up liking Teresa a lot, but Elvi never got any deeper than she first appeared. And I guess there's something cool about Amos (?) living on, but it does say something when the sociopathic bouncer is the one who survives. Neat that Miller came back, at least sort of. 

And I liked the end and the destruction of the gates and what that entailed for everyone. And that mankind found its way back together eventually. 

So it was a good ending, and I'm sad to not spend any more time with any of these characters. Good book, good series, and while I'm sorry it's over, it was a good ride. 

 

[MissLucas]

Yeah, made it through in two days but to be honest it was more of a chore than fun. I always thought it was a shitty idea to use tech you don't know zilch about *shrugs* Too much doom and gloom that they tried to fix with the last few pages but that did not work for me. The whole dark things-from-another-universe was too esoteric and all the dreamer chapters were trying. To me the series lost its heart with the time jump and the whole Laconia arc. But YMMV.

[Macbeth]

I really loved Tiamat's Wrath.  You find out what the Martian rebellion was all about.  You spend a lot of time in Laconia.  And with Elvi's scenes you were finally looking at the entity that brought down the civilization that had used the ring system previously.

With Leviathan Falls - the problem is trying to describe a god-like entity that can kill an entire system in a blink of an eye.  And revolve an entire book around that entity. It's an impossible thing to do.  Especially when everything is left very, very vague.  I read this book, knowing I will not remember a good deal of it.

I am happy about the book - given the resolution.  Of course it was going to end with Jim Holden sacrificing himself to save humanity.  I was never a Miller fan - but given what was happening in a good portion of the book - I was thrilled to see him.  Alex went off to his family.  Amos remained basically Amos but now he is eternal?  If the explosion was so powerful it destroyed the ring gate and all of the protomolecule there - why didn't it kill Amos and the kids? 

I felt sad for Naomi - she lost her family and her home.  

[MissLucas]

10 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I am happy about the book - given the resolution.  Of course it was going to end with Jim Holden sacrificing himself to save humanity.  I was never a Miller fan - but given what was happening in a good portion of the book - I was thrilled to see him.  Alex went off to his family.  Amos remained basically Amos but now he is eternal?  If the explosion was so powerful it destroyed the ring gate and all of the protomolecule there - why didn't it kill Amos and the kids? 

I'm satisfied with the explanation for the big McGuffin on an intellectual level, but on an emotional level it was not satisfying and neither were most of the main plots. Holden's big Jesus-like sacrifice had little emotional punch (mainly because it was painting by the numbers) and the real drama unfolding on many ships in the ring-space with people having to decide who they would leave behind forever was not given any breathing space. And there's plenty of little things to nitpick once you get started: I guess we can handwave the survival of Amos and the kids by claiming they were outside the ringspace when things went boom. I was more struggling with eternal Amos - if the protomolecule made him (and the kids)  basically undying then why was it so easy to kill Duarte? Even taking into account that Duarte was compromised by the angry gods it should have been way harder than what the book delivered. And what happened to Cara and her brother? Shouldn't they have created some sort of Zombie triumvirate with Amos? 

[raven]

On 12/8/2021 at 9:07 AM, MissLucas said:

if the protomolecule made him (and the kids)  basically undying then why was it so easy to kill Duarte?

I don't think they were actually infected with the protomolecule like Duarte, the woman on Elvi's ship, Julie and eventually Holden were.  The strange dogs fixed them using proto tech but we really don't know how.  The three of them appear to have some kind of self-repairing tech.  It's possible that Duarte might have eventually been essentially immortal but he was still integrating with the Ring station.   That's my theory anyway.

I didn't mind the Dreamers chapters but the Tanaka chapters I found very trying.   I didn't care about her or her psychological issues.  The mind invasion stuff was kind of interesting but I still didn't care.   I'm going with the writers needed her take down Duarte because they didn't want Holden or Amos to kill Teresa's father in front of her.   I did enjoy Alex taking out her troops with PDCs and Holden shooting her in the face.

I liked the rest of it.   I thought Holden blowing everything up was very much in character and I liked that he had Miller with him.  I liked his and Naomi's quiet goodbye.  They never had a flashy relationship but it was real to me and very solid.   Holden saying a quiet goodbye to the Roci and remembering Bobbie, Clarissa, Avasarala was touching to me.  I've always liked Holden though.

It did feel real that Alex would want to go to his bio-family.    Our core crew were usually very understanding and adaptable to each other so the others leaving rang true to me, plus for Naomi it may have been something of a relief.  

I liked the discussion that Elvi and Fayez had about the ethics of what they were doing.  

Amos always said he would be the last man standing.   Even a thousand years later, Amos isn't interested in titles or being identified as a leader but he'll watch out for his tribe.    I didn't mind that they didn't mention Cara, Xan or Filip (not that I wasn't curious).  I've never minded some things being open to interpretation.  The one thing I did really wonder about was the catalyst (the woman on Elvi's ship infected with protomolecule) and what would happen to her.

The guys put together their short stories in "Memory's Legion", due out in March.   It has one new story that may answer some questions. 

I'm satisfied.  I started reading the book and watching the show because of "vomit zombies" hee.   I got caught up in it pretty quickly.  The themes of personal responsibility, forgiveness/redemption, and hope were what kept me reading.  I also loved the characters, which is rare for me.  The guys did a tremendous job of fleshing out our major players.  I do read and watch a lot of apocalyptic/dystopian stuff and this series was a good alternative.  

[Tachi Rocinante]

Finished Leviathan Falls.  Disappointing, but slightly satisfying at the same time. They got in over their heads trying to explain the "god powers" and it showed. The hive mind idea had a lot more potential.

Edited April 19, 2022 by Tachi Rocinante

[raven]

If you want to know what happened to Filip, he is the protagonist in "The Sins of Our Fathers" .  There's nothing terribly groundbreaking but I enjoyed it.

[MissLucas]

50 minutes ago, raven said:

If you want to know what happened to Filip, he is the protagonist in "The Sins of Our Fathers" .  There's nothing terribly groundbreaking but I enjoyed it.

Does he end up falling into a black hole? Asking for a friend. 

I hated TLS both in the books and the show, not giving him another chance to raise my cortisol levels.  I am however interested in seeing what's next for Jasai Chase Owens who did a hell of a job (alas nnothing listed on IMDB):

[wanderingstar]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:44 AM, MissLucas said:

Does he end up falling into a black hole? Asking for a friend. 

😅

I don't hate Filip, but this cracked me up.

[wilnil]

On 12/7/2021 at 10:32 PM, Macbeth said:

If the explosion was so powerful it destroyed the ring gate and all of the protomolecule there - why didn't it kill Amos and the kids?

Just finished reading Leviathan Falls, and here's my take on what was going on there:

At some point Miller tells Holden that the whole gate setup was created, and powered, by the builders basically pushing a "bubble" from our universe into another one. Using the gate space apparently causes some distress to the things that live in that other universe, and when the gates are used beyond a certain amount, the things lash out. Laconia's "experiments" were the last straw.

What Holden does at the end, I think (though Abraham and Franck never spelled it out that I could see, curse them), is to pop that bubble, removing any connection between the universes and disconnecting the rings. This wouldn't have any effect on the protomolecule, which was always just a tool the gate builders used for getting things done, both to create stuff and to operate the stuff once created, and not some product of the gate space (i.e., the protomolecule made the gate space, not the other way around).