Sara Lance: The Canary Rises In White

[Sakura12]

I think they are confusing Laurel with Sara's dad. Sara never mentioned her Dad's death on Legends. But that shows how much they care about Sara as a character. She's only there to have Avalance. Her importance outside of that doesn't matter.

[MarkHB]

Caity and Sara fans may want to give the latest Holy Batcast podcast a listen.  They say a lot of nice things about both the character and the actress while discussing Crisis.

[lurker22]

On 2/27/2020 at 2:21 AM, MarkHB said:

Caity and Sara fans may want to give the latest Holy Batcast podcast a listen.  They say a lot of nice things about both the character and the actress while discussing Crisis.

Thanks for introducing me to the podcast. It was indeed a fun listen, especially how much they liked Sara/Caity in the crossover. I agree with them about the crossover showing the depth of Sara/Oliver's history, and having Sara there for Oliver's death(s) made a lot of sense. They're right also that it's pretty amazing how Sara Lance, a character that isn't in the comics, is now part of the founding members of this version of the Justice League, along with iconic characters like Superman and Supergirl.

[Screamnastics]

Who did Caity piss off and how? Because that's the only explanation I can come up with for this neverending trend of pushing her further and further out of the spotlight she worked her ass off for in all the ways that really matter. At this point, I think it would be less insulting if they just wrote her out, and it feels as though the only reason they haven't is that Sara's needed to be Ava's trophy.

[Sakura12]

I'm beginning to think CL only kept her job because they need her to be Ava's love interest. It's not like she's needed for anything else. They've proved that this season by making her so easily replaceable. 

[tarotx]

22 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm beginning to think CL only kept her job because they need her to be Ava's love interest. It's not like she's needed for anything else. They've proved that this season by making her so easily replaceable. 

If AVA was a guy and he got to co-captain because he dated the female captain there would be understandable uproar. I think they will probably kept Sara blind so that there is reasons for this but it does make be angry. I don't know if her fans will even care about the show in a year if Ava is continuingly going to be the focus. Ava's a boring character. I will watch but I hate what they are doing. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by tarotx

[Screamnastics]

22 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I'm beginning to think CL only kept her job because they need her to be Ava's love interest. It's not like she's needed for anything else. They've proved that this season by making her so easily replaceable. 

Caity didn't seem convinced her job was safe the last time they let her speak to reporters.

That (along with the lack of enthusiasm for both the power/disability story, questioning the focus on Ava, and spelling out how resistant they are to allowing acknowledgment of Sara's family) might be why we haven't heard from her in an official PR capacity since even as the rest of the cast is being interviewed about far less significant developments for their characters.

I just don't get why it's gotten to this point in the first place. It's honestly baffling to me. I can think of very, very few situations where a show has treated a lead this way or worse, and every other instance was owed to obvious institutional issues like racism, there were personal issues for the actor, or conflicts behind the scenes. It's clearly not the first here and you'd be hard-pressed to convince me it could be the second.

[tarotx]

1 minute ago, Screamnastics said:

Caity didn't seem convinced her job was safe the last time they let her speak to reporters.

That (along with the lack of enthusiasm for both the power/disability story, questioning the focus on Ava, and spelling out how resistant they are to allowing acknowledgment of Sara's family) might be why we haven't heard from her in an official PR capacity since even as the rest of the cast is being interviewed about far less significant developments for their characters.

I just don't get why it's gotten to this point in the first place. It's honestly baffling to me. I can think of very, very few situations where a show has treated a lead this way or worse, and every other instance was owed to obvious institutional issues like racism, there were personal issues for the actor, or conflicts behind the scenes. It's clearly not the first here and you'd be hard-pressed to convince me it could be the second.

They probably are trying to push Caity out. Or at least making it so she can't ask for lead money if the show is renewed again. I'm 99% sure money was why they fired Brandon. 

[Sakura12]

I don't feel like the Sara being blind story is about Sara. Since we haven't had her pov on it or really anyone ask her about it. Besides Charlie and Ava for half a second. It just seems like something that happened to Sara rather then it being an actual storyline for her. 

Compare it to Mick's first storyline since S1. We're seeing character growth for Mick, he's talking about how his feelings and fears the other characters are talking to him about his daughter. Sara is getting none of that treatment. Like most of Sara "storylines" like her being an assassin or dying multiple times its being treated like a joke. 

Sara is the only mortal on record that survived seeing a gods true form. And no one thinks that's important? Just saying its because she's a paragon doesn't mean anything. I don't see the other paragons getting anything special out of it. If they are going to use that, then they to explain it. But it seems like they don't really care to and just said it because its easy to use and takes no effort. Because they don't care to put any effort into Sara's character anymore. 

 

[Delphi]

I really hope they aren't making a feeble attempt to write Sara out,  like I only started watching this show for Sara and Ray.   As much as I enjoy Zari, she's not going to keep me around. 

[Sakura12]

They wouldn't write Sara out while Avalance is popular. Sara will just be even more of a background character, like Mick has been for most this shows run. They'll make excuses why Sara can't lead the missions so Ava can take over. 

[lurker22]

Either the writers are keeping Sara blind permanently (and without any emotional story tied to it, it'll just be another thing that happened to her and instantly waved away), so Ava will be leading all field missions like they hinted last episode, or Sara is just gone most of the episodes for ridiculous reasons.

I'm starting to think the writers had no interest in really giving Sara a superpower the way Caity wanted. It was just an excuse to not have to write for her because she's going to be stuck on the ship, i.e. off-screen, while Ava leads the Legends most of the episode. And the show is going to suffer from the lack of Sara's natural charismatic leadership and Caity's physicality. The few episodes that Ava was Captain in, she was really boring. It was no wonder Caity was disappointed in the superpower thing in the recent interviews.

And if Sara is just going to be randomly missing for episodes because Caity gets more directing gigs, then again, that's more excuses for the writers not to write for Sara. Win-win for Caity and the writers, but sucks for Sara fans like me.

Adam did a Q & A interview with the writers of the last episode, and it might just be me, but it was clear how disinterested they were when answering the question of why the writers gave Sara superpower. Compared to the excitement they showed when talking about Jes in the moose outfit. I'm not surprised why Sara is getting pushed further and further into the background while Ava gets to replace her.

The writers took away the traits that made Sara Sara, leaving us with someone who's just Ava's girlfriend. And I don't even get to see the old Sara in the Arrow crossovers anymore! Yet I'm stuck with Ava because the writers won't have the guts to split up Avalance for fear of angering the Avalance fans.

Looks like S6 is going to be even worse than S3-5.

[shantown]

It sucks. I tried to write something more eloquent, but it just boils down to the fact that it sucks that they don't appreciate Caity Lotz, and they don't understand what a draw Sara is.

[Starfish35]

57 minutes ago, tv echo said:

^^^ Here are my transcriptions from CL's appearance on SA's podcast yesterday...

****
SA: "But then, all of a sudden in season 4, they started kicking around the idea about a show called Legends of Tomorrow and miraculously Sara Lance came back from the dead via the Lazarus Pit. And since then you have established yourself, in my opinion, as the lead character on that show.

****
SA: "Well, listen, I'll say that - that through the years, you and I have had a lot of - had a lot of conversations that, um, are between you and I, but the one thing that I'll say is, you've - you're shown a real determination. You really have. You've - you've had to fight for every inch of what you've got. And, uh, it's well-deserved."
CL: "Thank you. And like it - 'cause it didn't end there. And then it was like, okay, Legends. And when I got on Legends, in terms of the call sheet numbers, I was at the very bottom. It was all the men and then the two women. Is where I started on that show. And - and I even remember my agent - because I was like, 'hey, guys, this seems, you know, like my character's been around longer.' He was like, 'well, you're a woman, so we kind of have to, like, don't want you to seem difficult and get a reputation.' And like - but I showed up every day and like that - there wasn't a plan to make Sara Lance captain. Like, she - it emerged as that. Um, and so my advice to people is, if people don't see it in you, make them see it in you. Keep going. Keep going. Persevere and like, be the best you can be and take any opportunity that you can and eventually like, you know, you'll - you'll get somewhere."
SA: "There it is. There it is."

Reading this, it just makes me more sad and frustrated about the current situation.  I don’t know if Caity pissed someone off, or if they’ve just lost interest in her character, but either way, as a diehard Sara Lance fan, it’s so frustrating.  I just don’t get the writers’ fixation on characters like Nate and Ava. 

[shantown]

Lots of interesting stuff from CL from SA's podcast too... and it made me realize they've been doing Sara/Caity dirty since her Arrow-days and the brutal and over-the-top way they killed her the first time.

[lurker22]

Yeah, hearing about how Caity had to fight her way from the bottom of the callsheet, I feel sad for her that she's still being overlooked. 

I feel like things were better when Guggenheim was in charge. At least in his interviews and the Arrowverse book he co-wrote, he's talked about Sara's progress and new story ideas for her. IIRC, he once said he didn't want to do a women-only episode if Sara wasn't in it as well (or something like that). Of course a lot of it was overhype and didn't come true, but at least I felt he genuinely cared about Sara as a character. And he's still pretty complimentary about Caity now when he didn't have to be.

IMO, once Phil Klemmer took control over the show, things changed. I don't think I've ever seen him talk about Sara as a character on her own. It was always related to finding her a love interest, being Ava's girlfriend, etc. He's shown way more interest in Ava than Sara, and basically talks about the legends as if they're idiots to be reigned in. I never got the sense that he was interested in exploring Sara's story. I think it was also around the time he took over when they said they're not interested in being linked to the Arrowverse shows anymore. That's probably why the writers are less interested in the original characters that had history on other shows, and more interested in characters they created from scratch like Ava, Gary, Mona, Zari and Nate.

Caity said in the podcast that she was asked (or she asked) to direct an episode again. So that means Sara'll be gone for at least 2 episodes. And she also said she has gained a lot of interest in directing. So I wouldn't be surprised if she directs a few more episodes (need not even be Legends, it could be other shows), or shadow a few other directors, thus, putting Ava in the Captain's chair for those episodes where Sara goes into a coma again. It's not like Caity's being challenged anymore playing Sara.

Edited May 15, 2020 by lurker22

[scarynikki12]

40 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

 I just don’t get the writers’ fixation on characters like Nate and Ava. 

I think it's a couple things. I think Nick was forced on the show by the network (if they truly wanted to have a historian on the team they wouldn't have turned him into a dudebro so quickly) and then they found that they liked him personally so they were both forced to write for him and happy to do so. With Ava it's that she's new(er) and shiny and they like Jes so they're happy to write for her too. I don't think they dislike Caity or Sara but she's established and I bet they honestly didn't realize how it looks to give more meat to Ava in their relationship. I hope they take the criticism and make adjustments next season.

[lurker22]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

I hope they take the criticism and make adjustments next season.

I admire your optimism, but I doubt that's going to happen. All the criticism expressed here have been expressed since S4, and even Caity has spoken about it, so they must know. Yet they're

Spoiler

making Ava co-captain next season. 

They're probably taking the same attitude as Klemmer's "if you don't like LoT, then you just don't understand it and we don't care!" to these criticisms.

[Featherhat]

39 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

Reading this, it just makes me more sad and frustrated about the current situation.  I don’t know if Caity pissed someone off, or if they’ve just lost interest in her character, but either way, as a diehard Sara Lance fan, it’s so frustrating.  I just don’t get the writers’ fixation on characters like Nate and Ava. 

I don't know if she pissed anyone off, she's still being given some stuff to do, and some of her absences *have* been because she got a reasonable part in the crossover, the Arrow finale appearance and directing opportunities. It's just frustrating that they don't seem to make the most of her when she's there. 

I think it's a little that PK seems to love Ava and exploring her more because she's newer it's "funny" to push her as the socially awkward clone - notice that's come up a lot more since S3. Sara's her girlfriend so she's still required but almost nothing in the relationship is from her POV but she's now settled into being a fairly relaxed person from where she was. However it's also frustrating that nothing about being blind is from her POV or even part of her story. Sara is also a character that MG had a big part in creating on Arrow S2 and he does seem to enjoy her. 

I did wonder if Ray and Nate had been in a relationship then Ray wouldn't have been pushed off. 😉 But they made Nora a regular then did basically nothing with her and Charlie has had sweet FA until recently. Then there's Constantine and his big shadow. I don't think PK is as good as handling an ensemble by himself as when there was a co-showrunner. 

 

[Starfish35]

24 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

I hope they take the criticism and make adjustments next season.

Is there criticism coming from other places than here though?  I’m truly asking, because I don’t know.  I mean, on Tumblr it looks like as long as people keep getting Avalance they couldn’t care less about Sara as a character by herself (which is frustrating on a number of levels), but maybe that’s just Tumblr.  I haven’t been following the reviews and I’m not on Twitter, so I really don’t know.  

[tarotx]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Is there criticism coming from other places than here though?  I’m truly asking, because I don’t know.  I mean, on Tumblr it looks like as long as people keep getting Avalance they couldn’t care less about Sara as a character by herself (which is frustrating on a number of levels), but maybe that’s just Tumblr.  I haven’t been following the reviews and I’m not on Twitter, so I really don’t know.  

There has been some criticism from all over. Mainly people missing Sara and trying to explain it away by blaming the Crossover, Caity directing and the Arrow finale. But the Avalance fans have taken over the Sara fandom. As long as there are cute moments they mostly gush so the criticism is just a small part overall. A lot of proclaiming Avalance one of the healthiest relationship on Tv and definitely the healthiest in the Arrowverse. Even though one side, Sara has to always compromise to pacify Ava. Imo.

[Starfish35]

As far as PK vs MG goes, I don’t know.  I mean, I don’t want to be too hard on PK, because I have appreciated a lot of the things he’s done with the show, but I do agree that MG is probably more of a Sara fan.  He’s always been very supportive of her.  

I do feel like Sara’s characterization and writing has gone downhill though, ever since she and Ava got together in 3B.  They’ll never get rid of Ava now, and I wouldn’t want to see the outrage like what happened with Sanvers, but I really do think it would be the best thing for Sara’s character.  Write Ava off to go....discover herself or something, give Sara some focus without being in a relationship, and then maybe bring someone new in but keep the focus on Sara rather than on her love interest.  

[Sakura12]

The Sara tag on tumblr seems to just be another Avalance tag. Sara hasn't done anything meaningful or important since S2. I mean it should be meaningful and important that she survived seeing a goddess' true form. But the show is treating it like it's nothing. Frat boy Nate is more important and Loom of McGuffin is more meaningful. So who cares about Sara. The team sure doesn't since not one of them have asked Sara about it. Besides Charlie for again half a second. 

[lurker22]

I've seen criticism on Reddit (there's a lot of support for Avalance there too), and some on twitter. But yes, the Avalance fans are loud, which is frustrating for me as a Sara fan because it seems they only care about how many times they call each other "babe", and don't care or can't see how Sara is being mistreated.

[tarotx]

They wouldn't even have to get rid of Avalance though. Just allow for Sara's pov and let Sara's emotions drive development. And for Sara to have actual moments with her team. This kind of thing always happens when you become the love interest. It's just that Sara was way more than that and should have stayed way more. Especially to Ava, imo,  a boring character.

[scarynikki12]

Echoing what others have said about there being some criticism around various social media places that’s been drowned out by the ship but I’m also thinking of Caity’s own criticism. She’s been diplomatic about it but it’s out there so they surely know. 

[Sakura12]

I don't need Ava gone. I just need Sara to matter. She's just kind there to call Ava babe right now. 

[Starfish35]

36 minutes ago, tarotx said:

They wouldn't even have to get rid of Avalance though. Just allow for Sara's pov and let Sara's emotions drive development. And for Sara to have actual moments with her team. This kind of thing always happens when you become the love interest. It's just that Sara was way more than that and should have stayed way more.

1 minute ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't need Ava gone. I just need Sara to matter.

I agree with both of these, tbh.  And realistically, I know Avalance and Ava aren’t  going anywhere.  I’m just frustrated.  😢

19 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

I only felt like Sara bonded with Stein, Kendra, Jax and Snart. And maybe Rip. As for the others, she has like one good conversation with them and then never interacts with them again outside of missions or team meetings. Just like Behrad. Or the weekly historical figures she used to bond with in S2. But the people I felt she bonded with have been gone since S2 or S3. So in that sense, yes, ever since Ava became the love interest, that's all Sara has.

I think she was close with Amaya.  And she’s had....moments, here and there, with Nate.  But it’s not consistent really, especially this season.  She had more with Nate and Constantine last season I think.  

She’s had nothing with nu!Zari that I can think of, and not a lot with Charlie.  And I can’t think of a lot with old!Zari come to think of it, once they got past their differences in the time loop episode.  

[Josh371982]

7 hours ago, Delphi said:

I really hope they aren't making a feeble attempt to write Sara out,  like I only started watching this show for Sara and Ray.   As much as I enjoy Zari, she's not going to keep me around. 

I'm more concerned with the showrunners Obession with Lame Nate. 

[One4Sorrow2TooBad]

I love this show, especially Caity. I was keeping up with this show til about the first third  this season. I don't know if the network switched nights or what and it conflicted with another show I watched(?)  Whatever it was , I missed out on the rest of the season. 😞 Saity makes the show IMO. 

[Sakura12]

I think if the Legends get invited to the next crossover. Sara's still safe because the other showrunners don't care about Ava. Sara is an established Arrowverse character. That's where she's shown more as an equal to the other leads. Only LoT writers care about Ava so she would only really get screentime on the Lot ep. 

With Arrow finished, the crossover is the only hope for me to see Sara be Sara again and see her have actual conversations with other characters.

[lurker22]

I don't know how well Batwoman and Superman (and Supergirl) writers know about Sara's history to write about her. I don't remember anything interesting that Sara did on Batwoman's part of Crisis. I didn't particularly care for Sara's part with Alex Danvers in that earlier crossover either.

Spoiler

Since the next crossover will be on Batwoman and Superman, I'm not getting my hopes up on seeing the old Sara again, other than perhaps a short cameo for ratings boost.

I did like Flash and Arrow's writers' take on Sara. 

I also loved the scene between Barry and Sara written by Keto, that talked about Sara's past. But then Keto said she wouldn't mention Quentin being alive again on Legends as that sets back Sara's growth. So it's strange to me how she's willing to spend time on Sara's history/family in the crossover, but not on Legends.

[MarkHB]

15 hours ago, lurker22 said:

So it's strange to me how she's willing to spend time on Sara's history/family in the crossover, but not on Legends.

Since the real answer is probably either that a) that stuff is felt to be way too heavy for lighthearted Legends, or b) there's a sense up there that that's MG's story to tell, I'll venture that an in-world answer could be that meeting up with people from your past causes you to revisit the times you had with them and who you were then. 

[Sakura12]

Yet we see Zari dealing with the loss of her brother and Constantine sending a little girl to hell. Those are both heavy and dark stories for a "comedy" show. For some reason its only Sara that can't have any heavy or dark story lines. So I see it as they don't care to write for Sara anymore but need to keep her on the show for Avalance.

The producers said they let BR go because they had no more stories for him. It's clear that's the same for Sara. If Sara wasn't with Ava, CL probably would've been let go like Brandon. Being Ava's love interest is what's keeping her on the show. Which is sad because CL/Sara is the only reason I started watching this show and stuck with it after S1. Which now S1 is in my top 3 favorite seasons. S4 and this season are worse for me. S1 had a lot of great character moments and storylines for all the characters. They just suffered with a terrible villain storyline. I'm including the Hawks in that. 

The fun humor parts of the show the past 2 seasons are ruined by the fact that my favorite character is treated like she doesn't matter and her only purpose now is to be Ava's girlfriend. 

[lurker22]

4 hours ago, MarkHB said:

Since the real answer is probably either that a) that stuff is felt to be way too heavy for lighthearted Legends, or b) there's a sense up there that that's MG's story to tell, I'll venture that an in-world answer could be that meeting up with people from your past causes you to revisit the times you had with them and who you were then. 

I don't think it's a) since both Zari and Constantine got to explore their dark past and loss of loved ones. In a way, I think Constantine's past with Desmond was darker than Sara's.

I'm inclined to think it's b) since LoT didn't start cutting ties and announcing they're not going to talk about anything Arrowverse-related until S3. IMO, they're fine writing dark stories in a comedy as long as they are stories they came up with.

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

The producers said they let BR go because they had no more stories for him. It's clear that's the same for Sara. If Sara wasn't with Ava, CL probably would've been let go like Brandon. Being Ava's love interest is what's keeping her on the show.

I agree. Brandon's last 2 seasons were pretty much all about his romance story with Nora, and since the show didn't have to worry about backlash from fans, they could cut both of them. Sara's the same since S3 where her only storyline is being a happy girlfriend for Ava. The fear of backlash from the Avalance fans is what's keeping her on the show. Plus they have legit reasons to not write for Sara since they're probably just going to give Caity more directing gigs, which makes Caity happy as well.

This whole thing just reminds me of how another favorite character of mine suffered so much character assassination that I didn't even care when she left the show (also with the excuse that they had no more stories for her). That's sad, and I don't want to see that happen with Sara too.

Edited May 18, 2020 by lurker22

[Starfish35]

2 hours ago, lurker22 said:

IMO, they're fine writing dark stories in a comedy as long as they are stories they came up with.

I’m not even sure it’s so much this, because if I understand correctly, the Astra storyline is carried over from Constantine’s show (I’ve never watched it, so cannot personally verify).  It just feels like, for whatever reason, they’ve lost interest in Sara.  😢   

[lurker22]

21 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

I’m not even sure it’s so much this, because if I understand correctly, the Astra storyline is carried over from Constantine’s show (I’ve never watched it, so cannot personally verify).  It just feels like, for whatever reason, they’ve lost interest in Sara.  😢   

Astra, I think, is part of the Constantine comics (I don't read the comics, but I think I've seen people say that), but they definitely fleshed it out a lot for the past 2 seasons. I did watch the TV show, and IIRC, Astra's name was mentioned, but it was never a full arc (it was a long time ago and I could be wrong). She basically remained the little girl Constantine sent to hell. Everything after that was LoT's idea.

Looks like Ava is already the "best" co-captain.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by lurker22

[Starfish35]

18 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

Astra, I think, is part of the Constantine comics (I don't read the comics, but I think I've seen people say that), but they definitely fleshed it out a lot for the past 2 seasons. I did watch the TV show, and IIRC, Astra's name was mentioned, but it was never a full arc (it was a long time ago and I could be wrong). She basically remained the little girl Constantine sent to hell. Everything after that was LoT's idea.

Oh good to know.  Thanks.  

[Starfish35]

23 minutes ago, lurker22 said:

Looks like Ava is already the "best" co-captain.

 

 

Arghhhhh. 🤦🏻‍♀️😡🤬🤯

[Sakura12]

Yep, I saw that even the LoT Instagram account has been all about promoting Ava as Captain. Oh sorry Co-Captain. 

[Starfish35]

Wow.  Just.  Wow.   They wouldn’t even do “co-captains” for Rip, but of course super special Ava is co-captain! Of course!  This just screams that they really wanted to make Ava captain, but they know there would be outrage if they demoted Sara.  

I am so mad right now.  I would not blame Caity Lotz if she just walked away from this whole mess.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Starfish35

[Featherhat]

I do wonder if they think it's cute the girlfriends are co-captains "Go Avalance!" Sigh. Ava's not even a good captain and has no natural way with people. 

From what I remember of Constantine the show the Astra story was used as Constantine's backstory for why he'd shut himself in a mental hospital in the pilot and several episodes visited the member of the Newcastle gang who were still alive so it was a big part of the show even if it wasn't always the focus. Bailey Tippen who played Astra in the flashbacks was also her voice in "Necromancing the Stone". I think it's a magical/hell storyline that fits in well with what the show wanted to do.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Featherhat

[lurker22]

Yeah. They just quietly promoted Ava to co-captain. I thought it was bad that she would become co-captain next season, but they couldn't even wait till then. I wonder if the Legends/Gideon are going to start calling her Captain from now on. Argh.

12 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

I am so mad right now.  I would not blame Caity Lotz if she just walked away from this whole mess.

TBH, I would be fine if she left the show. At least then Sara would be spared and we can keep whatever's left of her. It makes me sad to think that Caity had to fight for her place in S1, and now we're in S5 and she still has to fight for stories and her place (sadly, it looks like she's losing).

I still don't get the need to have a co-captain. We've never called Jax, Amaya or Zari 1.0 "co-captain", even though they had stepped up to lead the team when Sara wasn't able to do it herself. Jax, when Sara was dying from being shot by Rip (Sara put him in charge then). Zari basically behaved like the de-facto captain last season with the way she handled Mick, John and Charlie, while Sara was too busy making sure Ava played nice with Mick.

The favoritism shown to Ava at the expense of Sara is making me mad.

[Sakura12]

They do find it cute that its basically Captain Avalance.Gideon has already called Ava, Captain. The team just accepted it as well. Sara never needed a co-captain before. Even when it looked like she was prepping second in command for some. No one ever started calling them Co-Captains. 

They made her Captain because Rip programmed her to be a leader. I don't even know that would even work? She's supposed to be a person right? Not a robot. How did he program her to have any skills? I can get programming her to act a certain way but learning specific skills isn't part of your DNA. And that's why the clone part is the most interesting thing about Ava and they chose not follow up on it. All she is now is a Sara's girlfriend that magically had all the skills. 

Ava doesn't like people calling her clone but that's what she is until she finds out who she is away from her programming. 

If were Caity I would speak out more about wanting actual storylines for her character. They won't want to face the backlash of breaking up Avalance so she probably pretty safe speaking her mind on that front. 

 

[Screamnastics]

Considering both the response to the "co-captains" thing in the press release and Stephen and Caity talking about her struggles for recognition (with Stephen repeatedly stressing he views her as the lead) happened just days ago, it's hard not to feel this is a deliberate flipping of the bird.

[lurker22]

I feel like they're going overboard with wanting to show 2 equally powerful women in a relationship. Because Ava is Sara's girlfriend, Sara now has to share everything with her. Her ship, her team, her leadership, and even her fight scenes (now it's mostly shown as Sara throws a punch, Ava throws a punch, then Sara, Ava, Sara, Ava, ...) It has gotten formulaic at this point, IMO. They can't possibly not have Ava on an equal footing with Sara. This even goes back to their first S3 fight when they fought to a draw. Yet because Ava is super special, Ava needs to have the same title as Sara, even though they overlooked the part where it seems as if Sara reports to Ava/TB (they might not have considered that as Sara reporting to Ava, but it's definitely a gray area when Sara needs to ask Ava for funding).

4 minutes ago, Screamnastics said:

Considering both the response to the "co-captains" thing in the press release and Stephen and Caity talking about her struggles for recognition (with Stephen repeatedly stressing he views her as the lead) happened just days ago, it's hard not to feel this is a deliberate flipping of the bird.

I loved how Stephen was so supportive of Caity! He fought for her since the very beginning.

Edited May 19, 2020 by lurker22

[tarotx]

It's sadder because this is the second time Sara has had someone become her. I know Laurel was destined to become black canary but it was done awful and the wash repeat for Sara's captain role just depresses me. 

[Sakura12]

It doesn't really feel like they are sharing it. Sara is mostly in the background now or gives the team send off and then goes to the back. While Ava is shown leading the team on missions, making the decisions, bonding with the team and getting the pat on the back when the mission works. 

Sara barely speaks to anyone directly except for Ava anymore. I don't count giving the mission send off as talking to her team. She's like Mick has been since S1. She's brought out for one liners and maybe if they need her for something. Otherwise she's somehow unavailable. Then the power they gave her made her even more unavailable. And they barely made it matter as a storyline for Sara. It will probably be solved by the loom and that will be it. Her minimal storyline is over. 

[MarkHB]

On 5/18/2020 at 11:43 AM, lurker22 said:

Brandon's last 2 seasons were pretty much all about his romance story with Nora, and since the show didn't have to worry about backlash from fans, they could cut both of them.

That makes me saddest. The biggest reason I wanted to watch this show in the first place was that the Atom was going to be on it.

[lurker22]

Wow, they're really pushing this co-captain thing hard. Kill Sara, Ava becomes captain. Well, it's moot anyway since everyone dies (until the next episode), but Ava's co-captain status stays. 🙄