Felicity Smoak: Bitch With Wifi

Ceylon5 · November 24, 2014

There's a well-known saying: "Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to tell the difference."

While I take issue with much of the writing this season, one thing I think has been spot on is the way Felicity has handled Oliver breaking up with her. I love how much self-respect and backbone she's shown. I love that even though he's continued to do exactly what she asked him not to (dangle maybes), she has had the strength to walk away each time. I don't think that there are many break-up situations where the person who is being dumped can "fight" for the relationship without coming off as desperate and/or delusional, and this break-up definitely wasn't one of the exceptions. It's not the same as giving a motivational hero speech - it's too personal and emotionally compromising when the thing you're trying to talk someone into is having a relationship with you. There are times to be vulnerable and times to protect yourself, and Felicity is smart enough to to know which is which. Protecting herself (in so far as she can), in this situation, is IMO the right move. And it's certainly not weakness to protect yourself when the situation calls for it (just as being vulnerable is sometimes a strength and other times a weakness). Oliver knows she wants to be with him. He's told her repeatedly that he loves her but, as he said in the last episode: "I know what it's like to want someone, but not be able to be with them; how you wish things could be different, but they can't. I can't be with you; I can't be with anyone. I have to be alone." How do you argue with such sheer mind-boggling stupidity? Felicity has shown the strength and serenity to accept something that she can't change and adapted accordingly. On this subject the ball is not in Felicity's court at this point, and she knows that. Good for her.

Felicity gave in to Oliver's unreasonable demands last season (by becoming his EA), and I really, really didn't like that. So I'm very happy with what she's doing this season - not letting him emotionally blackmail her (not that I think he's in any way doing that maliciously; he's just a mess), not letting herself be caught in the undertow of Oliver's life, getting a decent job based entirely on merit, going out with other men, and basically just saying "No!" to the pathetic substitute for a real relationship that Oliver secretly hoped she'd settle for. She's young and smart and beautiful and the man she loves isn't willing to be with her for reasons which I'm certain make no sense to her, given that they make no sense to anyone else. So she's taking control of the parts of her life she does have a choice about. I think this shows growth, both in her as a person, and in her relationship with Oliver. Felicity is not Oliver's property, and I think it was long overdue that it be made clear, both to those in the show and those outside the show, that Felicity is on Team Arrow entirely by choice. She is loyal to Oliver entirely by choice. She is her own person and can work where she wants, live where she wants, love who she wants. She can't force Oliver to date her, but she can choose not to let him dictate her love life. And although I don't think this is her intention, I think the fastest way to budge Oliver out of his stupid stance is to move on with her life. If she doesn't, all she will be doing is enabling his poor choices. By living her life outside of him and the cave, she's forcing him to see her as more than just "his Felicity", who's always there for whatever he needs her for.

[side-note: While some can probably convincingly argue any number of dangled maybes from earlier in the show, one that is unequivocal and not left open to interpretation was him saying he loved her and then declining to either take it back or do something about it. That is the very definition of a dangled maybe. Then 5 months of flirty-flirt culminated in a date, which included him taking back his "I can't be with someone..." with "Maybe I was wrong". Then he broke up with her with a "Not now; maybe not ever". Contradiction, thy name is Oliver. I agree with Felicity - stop saying 'maybe', Oliver! Pick a lane. He's stringing her along and he knows it and she knows it and we know it. He might not like to admit it, but he wants her to wait around for him, possibly forever.]

ETA:

What arguments has she mustered to counter that?

She says, "You're still a human being, Oliver. You're allowed to have feelings. I know sometimes it is easier to live under that hood." He tells her this life he's chosen only ends one way, and she responds, "So, that's it? You're just going to spend your life hiding down here in this cave waiting to die? I'm sorry, I'm not going to wait with you because if there is one thing that today has taught me is that life is precious and I want so much more in mine than this."

Edited November 24, 2014 by Ceylon5

tv echo · November 24, 2014

When Oliver and Felicity had their talk in the hospital corridor, that's when Felicity might've first tried to argue with Oliver but didn't. Why?

One might think that the EPs thoughtfully reasoned that Felicity knows Oliver so well that she knows there would be no point. For the past year, she's probably spent more time with him than anyone else, even Diggle - she spent her days with him as his "EA" at QC, she spent her nights and likely weekends with him on Arrow business. So 24 hours a day for about a year, and most particularly for the previous five months, they've gotten to know each other inside and out. They know how each other thinks and what they're going to say. You could argue that she knows the present day Oliver better than anyone else in the world right now. As soon as their date was interrupted by an explosion, she probably knew it was over.

Alternatively, one might think that the EPs wanted to stuff so much into "The Calm" episode that they only allotted two minutes to the pivotal hospital corridor scene, so therefore there wasn't enough time to show a lengthy or subsequent conversation between Oliver and Felicity in that episode.

Edited November 24, 2014 by tv echo

Password · November 24, 2014

Hmmm she was probably optimistic until Oliver spoke to Diggle. Then she knew.

BkWurm1 · November 24, 2014

I wouldn't say that Felicity shut Oliver down when he brought up his feelings for her in the Secret Origin of Felicity Smoak, but she didn't encourage him to go on. He was saying he was glad she went through the trauma of her past because it made the person she was today and during the first part of his speech she was touched and pleased by his words and then he threw in ' and you know how I feel about her'. (There's those maybes again). Felicity's face went blank and a beat later she said she needed to get to work.

Oliver saying 'and you know how I feel about her' is,one of those things that are worse than meaningless without action supporting it. Again, Oliver's feelings aren't in question, it whether or not he's willing to do anything with them other than remind her he refuses to be with her despite loving her and just wanting her to be happy. As Diggle told him, if that was true he would be with Felicity.

Ceylon5 · November 24, 2014

Hmmm she was probably optimistic until Oliver spoke to Diggle. Then she knew.

Yes, Oliver broke up with Felicity first by proxy when he told Diggle, "My risks can't be your risks. Diggle, you have a life. You have a new life. It's a life I can't have." Felicity was crying in the foreground during this conversation. Super-douche-Oliver moment. I found that much sadder than the actual break-up scene, actually. That was when her brief little moment of happiness was squashed like a bug.

apinknightmare · November 24, 2014

Yes, Oliver broke up with Felicity first by proxy when he told Diggle, "My risks can't be your risks. Diggle, you have a life. You have a new life. It's a life I can't have." Felicity was crying in the foreground during this conversation. Super-douche-Oliver moment. I found that much sadder than the actual break-up scene, actually. That was when her brief little moment of happiness was squashed like a bug.

Yeah, this was very sad. I was glad that she got a chance to have her moment of heartbreak where Oliver couldn't see though.

I guess I just don't see how "fighting" for a relationship with someone who has repeatedly said both to you and in front of you that he can't/won't be in a relationship isn't pathetic? It's not like she's doggedly pursuing a job she's been turned down for or something of the like. The man she loves told her that he's scared to be himself (twice, and that not being himself precludes him from having a relationship), and that he can't have "that kind of life." His repeated assertions that he can't and won't be with her is a clear indicator that he's not ready. Why would she fight for someone who isn't ready for her and will likely wind up breaking her heart? Who's to say she even wants to fight for that? She deserves to be with the kind of person who's all in and not scared of a future with her. Right now, Oliver is not that person.

If he was saying he was ready and willing to be with her but couldn't because of some outside, unpredictable force like being worried about her safety, then I think she would've fought him on it. What kind of argument is she supposed to give? That he loves her? He's not denying that. That he's scared? He told her he was. He's just flat-out saying that he can't be with her, that he has to be alone. There is nothing to be said that can change his mind without coming off as (and, IMO, being) pathetic. That's not the Felicity I love. The Felicity I love knows herself and loves herself and has enough self respect to move on when someone isn't willing to commit to her. I agree with Ceylon5 completely - the writing has been atrocious this season, but Felicity with regards to her relationship and feelings for Oliver? Spot on.

Edited November 24, 2014 by apinknightmare

Betweenthisandthat · November 24, 2014

This is such a weird inversion of feminism that only really exists in dumb TV shows, as far as I can tell. The guy has to do all the work, and has to win the girl, and she has to do nothing at all except wait for him to fix everything.

I usually hate that kind of thing and I see it often on TV and in fandoms. The guy has to confess his feelings, chase the girl, and if he's deserving he gets her, while the woman is there to accept or deny him which doesn't feel like the foundation for a relationship between equals. I can think of at least three shows that tried to do this in the last couple of years and it was a turn off. I want the woman to show as much power to move a relationship forward as a man has.

The Olicity thing is different though. Oliver has to fix himself and I don't want Felicity to do that for him. There isn't anything really for Felicity to do except pursue her own happiness. She hasn't done anything wrong except not wait for him to dangle more maybes. There's nothing for her to fix. She can't convince him of his worth or encourage him to take a chance. Felicity doesn't have much power over Oliver in that way or I haven't seen proof of that yet. He's too stubborn.

I don't mind Ray and Felicity but I'd like to see her branch out from this romantic story line. Arrow isn't good at romance. I'd prefer to see her bond with the other women on this show and focus on balancing her career with crime fighting. It would be good for Felicity to focus on herself and her life.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Betweenthisandthat

doesntworkonwood · November 24, 2014

Again, I feel like the writing is failing Felicity, not because of her actions, but because of the ridiculous pace.

This is my idea of what could have happened if the pace was a bit slower.

301 - Felicity and Oliver still have a cute conversation, but maybe no mention of a bed. The love-fern is still given to Oliver as a present. Ray meets Felicity, she's not working at a tech store (because that makes no sense), but maybe they meet at a tech store because Felicity needs a new processor or something. It's a cute first meet, they finish each others sentences, she doesn't help him hack into QC though. Ray asks her out, she declines. Felicity and Oliver still have a convo about him taking back QC, but no asky outy. Ray and Felicity are both surprised when they see each other later at the QC meeting. Ray wins, without having to hack, because, lets face it, Isabel pretty much ruined QC. There are many mentions of how environmentally friendly he is. Ray chases her out of the boardroom to tell her that he could use her help. He makes it clear this is business not romance, but she politely declines.

302 - Ray sees Felicity upset, and attempts to comfort her. He does so in a way that makes him seem socially awkward but not creepy. There is a reminder of the business, but maybe another offer of friendship. Felicity accepts the offer of friendship but declines the business offer. The same arguments happen with Oliver, as the suddenness of death hits her, Sara is after all the first person that Felicity really knew to have died. She mentions how much she cares about him, and how she can't see him shut down like that as he hasn't done that in ages. There are hints, but no overt mention of love.There's a conversation with Diggle, where they talk about death (a good place to get more history about Diggle whilst we're at it e.g he talks about his first friend who died in Afghanistan and how he dealt with it). They talk about moving on, she tells him of the job and he encourages her to go for it. (This is, of course, after Oliver has mentioned that he's going to give up on QC)

303 - The gang go to Corto Maltese, sans Felicity. Felicity starts her first day, but she doesn't think she's going to be an EA because that was stupid. She works on encrypting project for Ray, whilst helping the others. Felicity and Ray are shown to get on well.

304 - She's not in that episode much, but I'd have liked to see a scene where she meets Nyssa.

Flash 104 - The same as it was.

305 - Mama Smoak turns up at QC rather than her house. More mentions of Ray being super environmentally friendly. He's nice to her mother. Donna initially thinks she's going out with Ray (which sets up Raylicity) , until she meets Oliver. Stronger Villain, i.e. Cooper didn't do it for the money. There's a nice moment with Oliver at the end, the 'and you know how I feel about her' gives Felicity a bit of hope.

306 - Roy tells Felicity about his dreams, but she doesn't believe him. He makes her check over the evidence again, and she lists it out to him, which makes Roy look like the main suspect. However, Felicity still doesn't believe it, and realises that he's having hallucinations about the cop. Felicity feels guilty as she's the one who lied to him about it in the first place. When Roy finds out about the cop, he's really angry, and Felicity apologises. She isn't instantly forgiven, and there's a bit of a strain on their relationship.

307 - Ray asks Felicity to go to a work do, there is no dress or jewelry, but she still says yes, because she actually wants to go.This builds up their friendship more, and during the evening they have a bit of banter and shmooze. When she tells Oliver about the work date, he's a bit annoyed. Diggle still has a conversation with him about the implications of that, and Oliver admits to his feelings. Cupid and Oliver have a conversation about true love, during which he admits he's in love, but not with Cupid. Felicity overhears on comms, and asks him about it that night. This is the episode where they get together.

308 - Crossover!

309 -

It's the ultimatum given by Ras that makes Oliver re-think his relationship with Felicity. Maybe Ras threatens Felicity in some way. Felicity fights against his decision, and is visibly upset by it. She talks about how she's in danger everyday working for The Arrow, but Oliver argues it's different because she's never had the league after her.

She actually gets targeted, and ends up in hospital, which just makes Oliver more adamant about no more relationship, but she still fights back.

Oliver leaves

During the next few episodes, whilst Oliver is gone,

we see Ray and Felicity's relationship develop. He tells her about the Atom suit and his motivation. After this he attempts to kiss her, but she declines.

When he comes back,

Oliver's even more adamant that he can't be with her.

Being with Ra's has

made him believe that he can't be Oliver and the Arrow at the same time.

Felicity overhears Oliver talk to Diggle about how Oliver doesn't love her (or something like that). She's angry that he didn't think to include her in this conversation as it has implications for her. Oliver tells her that he doesn't think he can be with her (basically the same convo at the hospital). As this is the third time he has told her that he wont be with her, Felicity decides she's done fighting.

Over the next few episodes, Felicity decides that being with Ray Palmer could make her happy, and she starts a relationship with him. When he tells her he loves her, Felicity can't say it back, and realises that her attempt at moving on hasn't worked due to the depth of her feelings for Oliver. She and Ray agree to go back to being friends. She doesn't go straight to Oliver as she doesn't want to get her heart broken again, but by the end of the season, something big happens which leaves Oliver hurt badly, and Felicity tells him how she feels. They restart their relationship.

Sorry that was really long, I tried to keep that as in line with what we've seen so far, and I'm sure there are loads of plot holes and things that don't make sense, and there's a lot of cliches and tropes, but I think that the slower pace would have meant that we saw Felicity's feelings more, and maybe got a bit more character development from her.

statsgirl · November 24, 2014

Didn't Oliver start talking about how he felt about her in the super special Felicity episode? And she shut him down and left? That seems pretty pigheaded to me. If she wanted to actually address the issue, she should have told him right then to either man up or shut up. Was he changing his mind? Who knows, because she never asked.

That was a dangling maybe and Felicity knew it. He knew she wanted a relationship with him and wasn't going to wait patiently while he decided if he could ever have a relationship with her. 'You know how I feel about you even though I've told you repeatedly why I won't be with you so stick around for this shadow life.' At this point, it's getting to be just plain cruel to her, like a cat teasing a mouse who is trying to survive and has little chance.

Felicity knows that there is no argument she could make to convince Oliver to be with her because she's pretty much made them all between The Calm and Sara. And we know, if Felicity doesn't, that Diggle has tried to make a few too., but it hasn't budged Oliver There comes a point when a girl has to keep some dignity and self-respect for herself rather than becoming a doormat begging the guy to give her another chance.

He's stringing her along and he knows it and she knows it and we know it. He might not like to admit it, but he wants her to wait around for him, possibly forever.

This.

If Felicity waits around for him, it's not good for her and it's not good for him. It's enabling. And nothing is going to change because Oliver doesn't want it to, limbo is working for him. Limbo is what he wants so that he doesn't have to make a change.

Freud said that change is so uncomfortable we don't do it unless the situation we are presently in is even more uncomfortable. Felicity is doing the right thing for herself and for Oliver, shutting down his dangling maybes and moving on with her life. I don't want her counting on it, but as an viewer I want Oliver to be so uncomfortable with that that he finally does something. Or doesn't, and lets her move on.

This show is called Arrow so it's going to be about Oliver and his perspective (when it's not about Laurel). They don't do justice to Felicity in terms of how little time we get to know what she's thinking and feeling, but they are doing justice to her in making her move on from being "Oliver's crush object."

apinknightmare · November 24, 2014

Again, I feel like the writing is failing Felicity, not because of her actions, but because of the ridiculous pace.

I guess I don't feel like the pace is failing her so much as maybe it would be nice to get a scene or two extra with her talking to...I don't know, Diggle or someone if we can't have an outside friend for her or maybe a couple more scenes with her and Ray at work developing that relationship. I don't think anything has been rushed so far with regards to her feelings for Ray, because I don't think they actually exist yet. I think we need to see what the next few episodes hold, because so far to me it hasn't seemed rushed? He took her out for what he told her and she believed was a work dinner, and then he kissed her at the end of the night and walked away.

I think part of the issue here was that EBR sold it as a date in an interview before the episode even aired, and said something along the lines that they were examining their feelings or some such thing. So we went in with the expectation of one thing, but the show didn't really show us that it was a date or that they were exploring anything at all other than Ray's desire to not be bored and Felicity's desire to wear a nice dress to a restaurant.

The kiss seemed kind of quick, but it was spur-of-the-moment. We don't know what Ray's deal is, but Felicity had just heard Oliver say for the bazillionth time that he couldn't/wouldn't be with her, and a lot of her kissing Ray back probably had to do with the fact that she wants to move forward with her life. I think her kissing Ray can be likened to what happened to Oliver and the "I love you." It makes you think about things, makes you want to maybe act on them once you put it out there - maybe Felicity didn't think there was anything there until Ray said those nice things to her and kissed her - I think that's the starting point for the developing relationship (if there ever is one); I don't think we've missed anything yet.

Edited November 24, 2014 by apinknightmare

wonderwall · November 24, 2014

I agree, I don't see how Felicity's arc regarding Oliver's feelings being rushed at all. She's still in the limbo between trying to move on and trying to reconcile her feelings towards Oliver. And she's been in this stage since episode 2. I honestly don't see that as rushing. I mean, if you believe that Felicity genuinely has feelings for Ray, then yes, I would call that rushing, but I honestly don't think she does. I think that Ray is her rebound. Is that fair to Ray? Probably not, but then again, he's the one who made the first move, not her. From what I saw in episode 7, Felicity kissed Ray as an attempt to move on from Oliver. Now if this attempt was successful (which I doubt it was and we'll see in the upcoming episodes), then yeah that will be rushed. I don't see Felicity moving on from Oliver anytime soon.

Now regarding Felicity having a life outside of Team Arrow? I don't think that's rushed either. She's a genius. She's bound to have some prolific prospects, and Ray's offer happened to be the most fruitful and familiar. I think that Felicity being VP is a bit of a stretch because she doesn't really have a business acumen, but I suppose it depends on whether she's VP of applied science branch or VP of the entire company which hasn't been elaborated upon. I will go with the former because unlike what a lot of people think, Felicity can't do everything.

So while Felicity's career is skyrocketing, personally, her developments have been strained (as they should be). She's getting a life outside of Arrow, but she's still very much so stuck inside the foundry when it comes to her feelings for Oliver. Why else would she cut dinner short in order to help Oliver? I don't really think she was needed there, but she went anyways. Right now, Felicity is still in the process of moving on. This is why I don't think her arc has been rushed at all. Would it be nice to see her transformation more clearly with a few extra scenes? Of course! But that doesn't mean her arc has been rushed at all.

BkWurm1 · November 24, 2014

I guess I don't feel like the pace is failing her so much as maybe it would be nice to get a scene or two extra

I think this is where I land, extra scenes to fill in some of the questions about her emotional state , her interactions with Oliver, and a couple extra to show Felicity impressed with what Ray is trying to do before she is shown to be his biggest fan. Ideally I would have liked to have seen the flirty flirt months that came before but I think I'd rather take having the date and the break up back to back rather than be strung along with a few happy episodes that are never really happy since the show naturally would be dropping anvils telling us this isn't going to last at all or worse yet, allow for a rational reason to arise for why Oliver breaks up or even more annoying, allowing for misunderstandings to be the reason for a split.

Say what you will about Oliver's reasons, at least nobody is where they are due to a contrived bit of miscommunication.

Edited November 24, 2014 by BkWurm1

doesntworkonwood · November 24, 2014

I guess I don't feel like the pace is failing her so much as maybe it would be nice to get a scene or two extra with her talking to...I don't know, Diggle or someone if we can't have an outside friend for her or maybe a couple more scenes with her and Ray at work developing that relationship. I don't think anything has been rushed so far with regards to her feelings for Ray, because I don't think they actually exist yet. I think we need to see what the next few episodes hold, because so far to me it hasn't seemed rushed? He took her out for what he told her and she believed was a work dinner, and then he kissed her at the end of the night and walked away.

I agree with you. I do think that the reason that we aren't able to get into Felicity's head and understand her viewpoint as a character is because she doesn't have a sounding board to bounce her feelings off. There's only so much that EBR can convey with her facial expressions, and if she had a friend to talk to the episodes and her arc would have been a hell of a lot better.

However, and this is probably where we disagree, I think that we've had to put an excess amount of thought as a viewer to justify or understand her actions. And don't get me wrong, I can easily justify them with a few tweaks each time. But those tweaks add up to create a bigger problem, which IMO is the characterisation of Ray Palmer and Felicity's reaction to him (as well as the pace of the entire show).

Ep 1 & 2 take place over 1 week max, 3 & 4 a week together (I think), 5 could feasibly happen a week later, and so could 6. Because of the cliffhanger ending of 6, and the murder of Isaac Stanzler at the beginning of 7, I'm giving that another week (despite what Ray said because it doesn't fit in with the cliffhanger which goes straight into episode 7). That's five weeks, max.

Five weeks in which Felicity meets Ray, calls him a stalker several times, takes a job from him, without knowing the job description, becomes physically attracted to him, changes her mind about him and is able to pull out a speech about how great he is, and sees him as a viable person to move on from Oliver with.

And that just doesn't make sense to me. I understand that a lot of people see her speech as her channeling her feelings for Oliver, and that's great, but for me it felt like was clunky writing as an attempt to show why Felicity liked Ray, because they hadn't really done that over the past episodes.

dtissagirl · November 24, 2014

And that just doesn't make sense to me. I understand that a lot of people see her speech as her channeling her feelings for Oliver, and that's great, but for me it felt like was clunky writing as an attempt to show why Felicity liked Ray, because they hadn't really done that over the past episodes.

Yeah, as I was watching I got no sense Felicity was projecting her Oliver feelings onto Palmer. My main reaction to the speech was external to the narrative: Arrow likes to use Felicity as a barometer with regards to trusting newcomers, and this was the big tell instead of show moment of What Felicity Really Thinks of Palmer, for the audience's sake. It bothered me because I thought they went overboard with the earnestness and emotional tone. I kinda yelled TONE IT DOWN, EBR! at the tv, something I had never thought would ever happen.

My general feelings about pacing and Felicity's arc can be pretty much be explained by my lack of connecting to that scene was well. I'm ok with everything she's done to try and move on with her life, but I'm extremely bothered by the fact that I cannot see Palmer as a real character at all. And Palmer's pacing is fucked up. So every time Felicity interacts with him, her pacing goes off, and I'm left having to fanwank the whys of her reactions.

I wish I could trade Palmer for Felicity getting a puppy, and talking to him about her feelings instead.

quarks · November 24, 2014

I wish I could trade Palmer for Felicity getting a puppy,

Ok, now I desperately want Felicity to get Wonder Dog!!!!

Kriesberg! I know we both watched that show! You even put a little Wonder Twins joke in Arrow once. MAKE THIS HAPPEN! Right down to the little cape!

BkWurm1 · November 25, 2014

Five weeks in which Felicity meets Ray, calls him a stalker several times, takes a job from him, without knowing the job description, becomes physically attracted to him, changes her mind about him and is able to pull out a speech about how great he is, and sees him as a viable person to move on from Oliver with

Five weeks can be a very long time. My best friend met the guy and got married in three weeks (and divorced in four years but that's another story lol) I'm just saying that very strong opinions and feelings can form and unform in a short period of time. Add in the trauma of losing Sara through death and Oliver through his pigheadedness, and a lot of intense changes were already happening in Felicity's life so fast changes were already her new norm.

Not liking Palmer, calling him a stalker, quitting her job and then turning around and taking the job - all that happened in 3-4 days. That leaves a few weeks for her to grow to appreciate Ray and his vision. I'd say her physical attraction to Ray happened only in this last episode so that's not too soon but I'd argue that while she kissed Ray, I don't think she's at all got to the place where she is thinking that he is a viable replacement for Oliver. Worthy of responding to a kiss, but it's a big leap to go from that to planning a life with him. I don't see that last part at all.

And that just doesn't make sense to me. I understand that a lot of people see her speech as her channeling her feelings for Oliver, and that's great, but for me it felt like was clunky writing as an attempt to show why Felicity liked Ray, because they hadn't really done that over the past episodes.

Yeah, I didn't see it as her directly channeling her feelings for Oliver though we know she has a weakness for crusaders for good so that isn't out of character. The writing of that particular scene works only if there had been previous scenes where we saw Felicity seeing and becoming excited about Palmer's vision. It's soooo needed to make sense of the restaurant moment that I wonder if it was in a previous script and got cut for time. I'm not hung up on it mostly because in the space of about five seconds I ran through all the WTF in my mind and instantly inserted a missing scene that made sense of where Felicity was coming from. I don't think the writing in the restaurant is bad or off because it is not a bad scene for what they were doing, it just is a scene that hadn't been earned yet by what we the audience had seen but all the pieces for it to be earned had been sprinkled into our interaction with Ray.

I'm not quite expressing myself right. Normally I hate tell not show but in this case I feel like they almost had done enough for me to believe Felicity would give a warm and glowing speech about Palmer. Him being (at least on the surface) some unique visionary didn't come out of no where, only the part where Felicity sees him like that did and her believing in him (if she had her proof) and her being then a big supporter is in character so I guess that is why I was fine with inserting a little head canon to make sense of it.

Edited November 25, 2014 by BkWurm1

foreverevolving · November 25, 2014

The only thing that bothered me about Felicity's speech is that it looks like she is on the verge of tears... which is why I am in the camp that her speech was about Oliver and semi-projected on Ray.

but like i said in multiply posts in the past, nothing about the Felicity-Ray storyline bothers me because it is such an obvious rebound story for her (what we are seeing is what we are getting) that I can just sit back, relax, and enjoy it for what it is.

BkWurm1 · November 25, 2014

The only thing that bothered me about Felicity's speech is that it looks like she is on the verge of tears... which is why I am in the camp that her speech was about Oliver and semi-projected on Ray.

but like i said in multiply posts in the past, nothing about the Felicity-Ray storyline bothers me because it is such an obvious rebound story for her (what we are seeing is what we are getting) that I can just sit back, relax, and enjoy it for what it is.

I think the speech (the facts) was/were about Ray but the emotions fueling it were about Oliver, hopefully that makes sense.

Edited November 25, 2014 by BkWurm1

Pothunter · November 28, 2014

Felicity is my favourite character, but I think the writing is failing her to a certain extent. My opinion could be coloured by all the fanfic I've been reading, but the acceptance of the dress and the necklace without comment was strange to say the least.

While she should always be herself, in certain circumstances I would like her to ask 'what would Laura Holt or Aeryn Sun do?'

Edited November 28, 2014 by Pothunter

Password · November 28, 2014

That's my biggest point of contention concerning that exchange. She didn't question the dress or the necklace. I've said before perhaps this is Felicity being swept off her feet, but I still side eye it.

Danny Franks · November 28, 2014

Felicity is my favourite character, but I think the writing is failing her to a certain extent. My opinion could be coloured by all the fanfic I've been reading, but the acceptance of the dress and the necklace without comment was strange to say the least.

While she should always be herself, in certain circumstances I would like her to ask 'what would Laura Holt or Aeryn Sun do?'

I don't think your perception is being coloured by any outside influences. I think fans gain a substantial understanding of who a character is, in a relatively short period of time. Call it assumptions, call it hopes, but I think the writing and performance can inform a character's personality and moral code and background, before any of that stuff is written. It's incumbent on the writers to then honour that established characterisation, or provide valid reasons for why it is now going to be different.

By the sounds of it, Felicity accepting 50 Shades' attentions without questioning them happened because the writers needed it to happen, rather than because it's what Felicity might be reasonably expected to do. I can't even really imagine Laurel accepting extravagant gifts (or loans) like that without questioning the intentions behind them, let alone Felicity, but I guess the writers wanted to do the whole, 'poor, neglected girl gets treated like a princess and can't believe it' trope. The stills I've seen of him putting the necklace on her look like they actually told EBR, 'give us your best 'Cinderella, you shall go to the ball' Disney face'.

quarks · November 28, 2014

By the sounds of it, Felicity accepting 50 Shades' attentions without questioning them happened because the writers needed it to happen, rather than because it's what Felicity might be reasonably expected to do. I can't even really imagine Laurel accepting extravagant gifts (or loans) like that without questioning the intentions behind them, let alone Felicity,

:: snaps fingers :: That's what was nagging me.

When faced with an admittedly different type of extravagant gift in the first season, Laurel did question the motives behind the gift - throwing a CNRI benefit party - even though a number of people were going to be thrown out of work and/or lose legal assistance if she refused the gift, and even though at least on the surface the gift looked like pure charity, and though the guy giving her the gift was a long term friend as well as someone who wanted to sleep with her. Now, granted, a number of people, including me, yelled at her reaction there - but mostly for refusing the gift which under the circumstances of a lot of people losing their jobs and Tommy's wealth, really wasn't something she could do, and because the script had presented the whole party idea as a way for Tommy to show that he was serious about Laurel, not just trying for sex.

Which means that a couple of things could be going on here: Laurel is being presented as more suspicious than Felicity, which is fine; the show recognizes that wealthy men often pursue beautiful women with extravagant gifts (and it's probably important to realize that although Diggle and Joanna both point out that Felicity and Laurel don't have to reciprocate, both eventually do); or the show thinks that beautiful women should just accept gifts from wealthy men without questioning their motives.

It's also kind of interesting that Oliver doesn't tend to shower women with expensive gifts, and when he does, it's generally after he's slept with them (the crossbow/costume for Helena in season one; the welcome home party for Sara in season two - which she didn't want anyway and which the show has apparently forgotten about anyway.)

To bring this back to Felicity, that may be part of the issue here: we have a woman accepting extravagant gifts, or at least loans, from her boss, after a full season and a half of her other boss not only doing no such thing, but accepting gifts from her, and after an episode where a less sympathetic character did express reservations about an expensive gift from someone who isn't her boss. So while I'll agree there's certain Cinderella elements here, including that hairstyle (although Cinderella got her gifts from a fairy godmother in order to get the guy, not the guy possibly in order to get her into bed), and definitely an attempt to contrast Oliver and Ray, I also think that this is working against a background already established in the show, and if we weren't already supposed to have uneasy feelings about Felicity expressing interest in someone who isn't the protagonist like THANKS DARK LIGHTING for making that particularly clear, that element is also in the background.

Password · November 28, 2014

I just desperately want to know what's happening in dear Miss Smoak's mind. I'm tired of fanwanking decisions and thought processes. What annoys me even more is, we saw her questioning Ray's intentions from the beginning. She called him a stalker, did nasty things to his tech and rebuffed him continually. Then there were a series of Ray being a shoulder to cry on because this show can't do subtle, and hey presto! Things are totes cool between them. I just think Felicity isn't naiive, and accepting gifts from already shady bosses seems...naiive.

Her decisions have seemed fairly emotional where Ray is concerned and it bothers me. But perhaps that's what they're going for here.

Axel · November 28, 2014

I don't see, what is there to fanwank here ? Felicity went from disliking Ray to liking after spending two months working and getting to know him, there's nothing unnatural about it. I don't need to see every boring day of their life at work to fill the blanks.

Never it has been shown that Felicity didn't like expensive gifts or fashion or would refuse it. The only thing always clear is that she is not kind of person who would change her moral beliefs because of money, not that she doesn't enjoy it . It didn't change. For the record, Felicity is attracted by Ray, before he asks her out. Maybe she didn't spend two years pining for him, but it was made clear when she said he's her "type". The dress is merely play, like when Oliver promised her a bottle of expensive wine to make a research. We all know she didn't do it for the wine but because Oliver picked her interest. It doesn't mean she would have refused it. She didn't accept Ray's invitation for the gifts either. She did because she's interested.

Giving extravagant gifts (or spending a lot of money) for someone is just a way the show says you value someone : Tommy for Laurel , Felicity for Oliver and while it's too early to talk about love with Ray, it's the way to say he values Felicity.

Danny Franks · November 28, 2014

I don't see, what is there to fanwank here ? Felicity went from disliking Ray to liking after spending two months working and getting to know him, there's nothing unnatural about it. I don't need to see every boring day of their life at work to fill the blanks.

Never it has been shown that Felicity didn't like expensive gifts or fashion or would refuse it. The only thing always clear is that she is not kind of person who would change her moral beliefs because of money, not that she doesn't enjoy it . It didn't change. For the record, Felicity is attracted by Ray, before he asks her out. Maybe she didn't spend two years pining for him, but it was made clear when she said he's her "type". The dress is merely play, like when Oliver promised her a bottle of expensive wine to make a research. We all know she didn't do it for the wine but because Oliver picked her interest. It doesn't mean she would have refused it. She didn't accept Ray's invitation for the gifts either. She did because she's interested.

Giving extravagant gifts (or spending a lot of money) for someone is just a way the show says you value someone : Tommy for Laurel , Felicity for Oliver and while it's too early to talk about love with Ray, it's the way to say he values Felicity.

But what you're doing here is fanwanking. You're fanwanking an explanation by assuming that Felicity and 50 Shades have worked together and got on and improved their relationship offscreen, to the point where she has gone from thinking him a creepy stalker, to the point where seeing him without his shirt on gives her palpitations.

It's necessary when shows take shortcuts about any aspect of the storytelling, but it's especially evident with this one because people do pay attention to Felicity, and do want to know what's going on inside her head. Being asked to accept that what's going on is not what they thought requires more than just, 'this has happened because reasons'. You don't show any of the developments that you know a lot of viewers will consider important? You will get criticised for it.

It's like if Tommy and Laurel went from her blowing him off at the end of the pilot to agreeing to date him, without any of the scenes in-between that highlighted their mutual attraction and built on him trying to prove to her that he was a datable prospect. And the fact I'm comparing Tommy/Laurel to anything favourably says just how bad this show has been at building romantic relationships.

Axel · November 28, 2014

But what you're doing here is fanwanking. You're fanwanking an explanation by assuming that Felicity and 50 Shades have worked together and got on and improved their relationship offscreen,

She works for him. It was on-screen. They work closely enough for her to stand by his side during a press conference where he renames the company. It was on-screen. He drops at her place just to talk about a new idea. And she's quickly more interested by the project than bothered by the fact he came at her place at dawn. On-screen too. Every new scene shows their relationship getting better : from furious (302), to ok when he gave her a job she loves, to sharing a mutual deception (305) and ultimately physical attraction (307)...I don't need more scenes of Felicity crying over his shoulder, drooling over his body or sharing tech nonsense to make it clear.

Ceylon5 · November 28, 2014

Getting to wear something for one night for a boring dinner that she mostly bailed on isn't IMO in any way, shape or form a gift. She wasn't getting anything out of it that I can see, other than the extreme stress of being responsible for a $10 million dollar necklace for an evening and the dubious pleasure of wearing an expensive (but probably uncomfortable) dress for a few hours.

She supposedly also accepted a dress and shoes from Oliver (which I'm guessing she kept), so it's not really anything new for the show or for Felicity. Of that episode (1x15), Emily said:

Felicity “gets to go out ‘in the field’ at an art auction,” Rickards says. “So the idea is that Oliver went out and got her a dress and heels,” Pretty Woman-style, for the assignment. Of the temporary transformation, “We could safely say this is the first time, ever,” Ms. Smoak has gotten so dolled up, Rickards ventures.

So they're really just re-using something that, as far as the cast is concerned at any rate, has happened before on the show. I don't really see what the big deal is. Sure, it's something of a stupid head-scratcher of a plot-point, but there are so many of those in this show (and on most TV shows) that it seems pointless to over-think them when they most likely have no meaning whatsoever. If it does turn out to have some meaning (which is highly improbable), then that will be to tell us something about Ray, not Felicity.

I didn't find Felicity's actions in the scene in any way confusing (Ray's motives were much less clear). All I saw was her being initially surprised and quite chuffed about him asking her out, then a bit put off by his really inept way of going about it, and then finally using the dress as an excuse to say yes, which I'm sure she had wanted to do all along. At that point she was still caught halfway between treating Ray with somewhat snarky disrespect (a hangover from 3x02) and her growing appreciation of him as a decent boss and a guy who's doing things she admires (every episode since then), so although she wanted to oblige him by going to the dinner, she still wasn't quite able to bring herself to just say yes right off the bat. She was trying to figure out where he was coming from, and getting understandably confused, because his signals were mixed at best.

The bottom line for me is that Felicity can take care of herself. I was way more put off by Oliver making her his EA (which affected her whole life, to her detriment), than this innocuous few hours in a loaned dress and necklace, the wearing of which has no lasting affect on anything at all. It's not like she's going to do anything with Ray that she doesn't want to and choose to do, so I'm not sure what the issue is. And I don't for a moment believe (nor do I think she believed) that Ray expected anything from her other than her company at dinner (the kiss seemed to surprise him more than it did her). Nothing nefarious happened, unless you're someone who has a blanket rule against all employer-employee relationships, regardless of the true power dynamics involved, in which case you'd feel lines were crossed. I feel that life is too complicated for blanket rules, and know lots of people who have ended up dating and marrying people who they worked for/worked for them - so for me, as long as no-one is abusing their power (regardless of the source of that power), then I don't think that stuff is really relevant.

I think the Felicity/Ray power dynamic is actually pretty even - unlike the early Felicity/Oliver one, which he definitely abused at times. He's the hero, so we know his viewpoint and cut him a lot of slack as a result, but he was as dodgy as hell in the beginning (it really should bother us all more that he was a serial killer...), and is only marginally better now. Whatever Ray may or may not be, I think Felicity is older, stronger and more sure of who she is now than she was two years ago, and I hope from here on out she will continue to make choices based on what she wants to do, and never again allow someone else to push her around the way Oliver did. The condescending way he still keeps telling her she needs to give 100% or get her head in the game (after everything they've been through!) really annoys the crap out of me, and I hope one of these days she tells him to go and watch High School Musical and then see if he ever wants to use that expression again. Dammit, now I have that song in my head!

Axel · November 28, 2014

Getting to wear something for one night for a boring dinner that she mostly bailed on isn't IMO in any way, shape or form a gift.

Very true. We keep talking about it like if it was gifts but, until the end, it wasn't. Not that I mind if she ends up keeping it, I consider it as a bonus for helping to make the deal.

TanyaKay · November 28, 2014

^^^^

Everything Ceylon5 said.

Edited November 28, 2014 by TanyaKay

dtissagirl · November 28, 2014

I guess what bothers is me I'm incapable of seeing what Felicity sees in Palmer, both before and after dress+necklace boring dinner not-date. And that might be a 100% emotional reaction on my part, because ALL I SEE ARE HIS CRAZY EYES, so basically in my head he's totally gonna kill her and eat her brain and look at the camera and burp happily afterwards.

But I know what Felicity sees in Oliver, and I know what she sees in Barry too. And especially Barry -- it legit took me "The Scientist" alone, and I could buy why she would be interested in him and vice-versa -- so maybe Crazy Eyes also loses in narrative comparison.

calliope1975 · November 28, 2014

I guess what bothers is me I'm incapable of seeing what Felicity sees in Palmer, both before and after dress+necklace boring dinner not-date. And that might be a 100% emotional reaction on my part, because ALL I SEE ARE HIS CRAZY EYES, so basically in my head he's totally gonna kill her and eat her brain and look at the camera and burp happily afterwards.

But I know what Felicity sees in Oliver, and I know what she sees in Barry too. And especially Barry -- it legit took me "The Scientist" alone, and I could buy why she would be interested in him and vice-versa -- so maybe Crazy Eyes also loses in narrative comparison.

This is me, too. I could absolutely see her dating Barry, especially after her visit on The Flash. I know in my head Ray is supposed to be the perfect version of Oliver, but I'm not feeling it. I don't think BR's crazy eyes are on purpose, but it takes me out of the scene every time I see them. I would much rather Felicity and Barry given a go at a long distance relationship. Oh well. This 9/10 Olicity scene better live up to the hype, Show!

apinknightmare · November 28, 2014

I guess what bothers is me I'm incapable of seeing what Felicity sees in Palmer, both before and after dress+necklace boring dinner not-date. And that might be a 100% emotional reaction on my part, because ALL I SEE ARE HIS CRAZY EYES, so basically in my head he's totally gonna kill her and eat her brain and look at the camera and burp happily afterwards.

But I know what Felicity sees in Oliver, and I know what she sees in Barry too. And especially Barry -- it legit took me "The Scientist" alone, and I could buy why she would be interested in him and vice-versa -- so maybe Crazy Eyes also loses in narrative comparison.

The crazy eyes are seriously terrible. I wish someone would make him stop it.

Despite me thinking some of the things he does are creepy (although to be honest, a lot of his creepiness is lessened for me upon rewatching, but ymmv), I totally get what Felicity sees in Ray. She's an idealistic woman, and what he's presented to her thus far (giving up his salary and encouraging the business elite of Starling to do the same, the cogeneration project, his vision for "saving" SC, who knows what else he has her working on that we don't know about) must hit all of those buttons for her. He does seem genuine in his desire to help/save the city, since she doesn't know that he's up to some shenanigans with super suits and dwarf stars.

It doesn't take too much for me to understand why Felicity would be interested in dating Ray, or at least why she might be open to the possibility.

dtissagirl · November 28, 2014

It doesn't take too much for me to understand why Felicity would be interested in dating Ray, or at least why she might be open to the possibility.

I wish I could, but it's not happening for me at all.

Well, actually, it was just this last episode that seriously bothered me. Everything prior I was fine with how Felicity reacted to Crazy Eyes. And the Pretty Woman crap was irksome, but they played it for laughs, so I'm choosing not to care. It was her emotional speech at dinner that lost me. I can see what you're saying in how he's trying to do great things for the city, and Felicity likes idealism. But she also already does something incredible for the city every night with Team Arrow? And here she was, almost teary eyed in her ~complete belief~ in a dude she just met, but the words felt shallow because she runs ops for TA every night on idealism alone.

I was expecting a wink that told me she was selling it like that on purpose, but it never came. And it's bothering me that I'm having cognitive dissonance with something related to Felicity because FAVORITE.

I feel like instead of creating a real character, like they did with Barry [Geoff Johns, *bless*], they just went through a list of crap they needed Palmer to be to fit the story, and Felicity is now reacting to the exact same list in her scenes with Palmer. Maybe it was last minute because they wanted Ted Kord and got Crazy Eyes instead. But everything is deliberate with him, and nothing is organic. All the stuff that makes him similar to Oliver, to the point where in this episode he's doing the Salmon ladder AND doing the My Name is Oliver Queen speech almost word of word [TOO MUCH, SHOW. TOO MUCH], and then all the stuff that in theory makes him the ideal partner for Felicity, which is basically being a tech geek and speaking too fast. It's all superficial too.

Somewhere between the writing and the directing and the CRAZY EYES, they forgot to give him an actual personality. Or maybe to give Felicity a friend she can sound off so we can get a bit more inside her head and learn what she's feeling about him. And I know I'm biased, but I can also smell plot-driven from miles away.

Edited November 28, 2014 by dancingnancy

BkWurm1 · November 28, 2014

It was her emotional speech at dinner that lost me. I can see what you're saying in how he's trying to do great things for the city, and Felicity likes idealism. But she also already does something incredible for the city every night with Team Arrow? And here she was, almost teary eyed in her ~complete belief~ in a dude she just met, but the words felt shallow because she runs ops for TA every night on idealism alone.

I was expecting a wink that told me she was selling it like that on purpose, but it never came. And it's bothering me that I'm having cognitive dissonance with something related to Felicity because FAVORITE.

I think it's perfectly fair that there'd be a 'what the hell' reaction to her speech because it absolutely popped up virtually from no where. I don't think it was a sales tactic at all, Felicity sold it as completely sincere. But I also don't think that there is any need for what she does with Team Arrow to inform any opinion that she has about Palmer. I can't imagine Felicity thinking less about someone else because what she does is more special and I know that is kind of an extreme way of looking at it, but that's what seems implied by bringing up what she already does to save the city.

I think where I was eventually ok with the scene of her praising Ray is that I could believe that she could have come to admire and believe in him based on what we do already know...even if we never got to see the actual moments that triggered her reaction. It would have been much better story telling if we had the chance to see it happening (her appreciation of Palmer growing) but knowing Felicity and having been told lots of good things about Palmer, it makes sense that she would be very supportive of him and not because he's some kind of Oliver clone since I think that's a stretch. All he really has in common is CEO, Salmon Ladder, and wishes to make the world better but with Oliver it is all about the personal sacrifice. Ray makes sacrifices but that's tied up in money and he has so much that what he does sacrifice doesn't seem like he misses it.

I suppose he's the idealized version of what Oliver Queen the CEO could have been but since Oliver Queen was too busy being the Arrow, he neglected to figure out any way he as the head of a huge corporation could do good in a more open way. He did try a little with the gun by back but that was about it.

Edited November 28, 2014 by BkWurm1

KirkB · November 28, 2014

.

It was her emotional speech at dinner that lost me. I can see what you're saying in how he's trying to do great things for the city, and Felicity likes idealism. But she also already does something incredible for the city every night with Team Arrow? And here she was, almost teary eyed in her ~complete belief~ in a dude she just met, but the words felt shallow because she runs ops for TA every night on idealism alone.

See, I think the problem is a disconnect between us and the EP's. Felicity all of a sudden, as far as we can tell, has all this gushing respect for Ray probably because she has spent all this time with him and knows what he is really like. The problem is, we haven't SEEN him do anything but buy the business she was working at so she would have to work for him, act in a way many people found stalkery, make crazy eyes and give her extravagant stuff to wear for a dinner she didn't want to go to. If they want us to like/respect/care about Ray, and to understand why Felicity feels however she does about him, they need to give us more of a reason than just put her on camera and have her say he's so cool.

Edited November 28, 2014 by KirkB

dtissagirl · November 29, 2014

I can't imagine Felicity thinking less about someone else because what she does is more special and I know that is kind of an extreme way of looking at it, but that's what seems implied by bringing up what she already does to save the city.

Yeah, that's not what I meant at all. I meant that her speech felt to me like there she suddenly believed Palmer was the sole savior of the entire city, when in reality Felicity knows he's not.

I think what's also tripping me here is both episodes that ended with a Crazy Eyes reveal -- the OMAC stuff and the Atom suit -- were portrayed in ~ambiguous low light and ominous music, and this entire vibe that maybe he's evil after all. And Felicity knows nothing of that. On the contrary, her speech pretty much said she believes with all her heart this dude is gonna save the city.

But the framing of the reveals was shady, so there's the implication that she might be getting cozy with a real creeper. It's kind of a repeat of the Laurel/Blood stuff last season -- audience knows more about dude than the other characters, except we knew a whole lot more about Blood, because he was a much better constructed character.

I *almost* feel like it's okay for me to be extremely bothered by Felicity trusting this dude, because the ambiguous framing of the narrative is telling me to yell FELICITY. RUN RUN RUN AWAY FROM THE PSYCHO KILLER [Qu'est-ce que c'est]. YOU'RE BEING GASLIGHTED. But I can't tell for sure, because they jumped so many important points in the develoment of Crazy Eyes and his relationship with Felicity, that it might as well just be super shitty writing after all.

Edited November 29, 2014 by dancingnancy

statsgirl · November 29, 2014

I understand what Felicity sees in Ray. He's got Oliver's desire to make Starling a better place, he's got her own exuberance and not knowing where the boundaries are, and he seems like a pretty good boss, giving her a position at her worth and time off when she needs it. Also, he's not bad to look at. Or pretty much what apinknightmare said. But..... it's been badly done and too Pretty Woman for me to even enjoy the storyline much less take it seriously. And the speech at dinner felt like something from a Mel Brooks movie.

They're trying to get us to accept Ray by having Felicity be his cheerleader and then they want to play with the idea that he's really sinister with that suit and the dwarf star stuff. But they can't play it both ways. Either we take Felicity's speech at face value, or we look at the other stuff and think that Felicity is being played. (That's a big problem with this season, that all of Oliver, Felicity and Diggle are acting stupid to drive the plot.)

When faced with an admittedly different type of extravagant gift in the first season, Laurel did question the motives behind the gift - throwing a CNRI benefit party - even though a number of people were going to be thrown out of work and/or lose legal assistance if she refused the gift, and even though at least on the surface the gift looked like pure charity, and though the guy giving her the gift was a long term friend as well as someone who wanted to sleep with her. ound.

Laurel didn't question it so much as assume that Tommy's only purpose was to get into her pants, even though he had been there before.

Felicity doesn't think she's worth that kind of extravagance and that the man wouldn't do it just for sex with her ... which leads into its own kind of problem in this episode.

Never it has been shown that Felicity didn't like expensive gifts or fashion or would refuse it. The only thing always clear is that she is not kind of person who would change her moral beliefs because of money, not that she doesn't enjoy it .

Agreed that she would not change her moral beliefs, but she's also not the kind of person who would expect these kinds of presents. Even more so because growing up in Vegas, Donna would have taught her that that kind of gift comes with strings attached.

Maybe Felicity did think that it was the same thing as Oliver getting her a dress for the Dodger's auction. He wanted her to look good, so he provided the dress. And in Ray's case, a fortune in diamonds. So that leaves us with the options that either Felicity is shallow because an expensive dress and necklace leaves her panting for dressing up and not asking the questions of Ray that she should be (like why did he buy a dress for her specifically when there were a hundred other women who he could have gone to the dinner with), or she's become stupid and doesn't question Ray's actions. Frankly, neither possibility thrills me.

We keep talking about it like if it was gifts but, until the end, it wasn't. Not that I mind if she ends up keeping it, I consider it as a bonus for helping to make the deal.

I'd be shocked if she had to give the dress back at the end of the night. That was a gift.

There are bonuses, and there are bonuses. If he gave her $2500 of tech as a thank you, I'd still think it was overkill and inappropriate. But a $2500 dress? I wish Moira could have a talk with Felicity on trust and boundaries and how men aren't always what you think they are.

I *almost* feel like it's okay for me to be extremely bothered by Felicity trusting this dude, because the ambiguous framing of the narrative is telling me to yell FELICITY. RUN RUN RUN AWAY FROM THE PSYCHO KILLER [Qu'est-ce que c'est]. YOU'RE BEING GASLIGHTED.

And so are we, it looks like.

foreverevolving · November 29, 2014

I *almost* feel like it's okay for me to be extremely bothered by Felicity trusting this dude, because the ambiguous framing of the narrative is telling me to yell FELICITY. RUN RUN RUN AWAY FROM THE PSYCHO KILLER [Qu'est-ce que c'est]. YOU'RE BEING GASLIGHTED. But I can't tell for sure, because they jumped so many important points in the develoment of Crazy Eyes and his relationship with Felicity, that it might as well just be super shitty writing after all.

perhaps that IS the point? With Oliver she immediately saw through his shit ass lies and was suspecious but she helped him nonetheless- for somereason she was willing to trust him. Yet that hasn't been the case with Ray, she seems to trust him but is unable to see through his lies and real motives. now it could be that Ray is just a better lier (probably) than Oliver, but maybe the fact that she is like this is a tale sign- not bad specifically, I am not yet convinced Ray is evil or shady, but... for some reason, unlike with Oliver, Felicity has a "cloth over eyes" like Lady Justice or the three monkeys.

HK_Central_Statue_Square_Legislative_Cou

FYI, Not sure if even i understand my own metaphor ... :-P but it's the only one i can think of.

ETA: so i've been thinking about this. and if I remember correctly lady justice represent the unbiased justice system, she hold the scales and the sword. she is judge and executioner, she has the power to decide a person's destiny if you will.

Freedom, jail & rehab/community service. so.. freedom (cloth over eyes?) = regular person/someone like Ted who gave up the hero/evil way or still undecided, Jail (sword?) = evil, Rehab/C.service (scale of justice?) = Hero. ?? or maybe cloth is rehab and scale is freedom?

So perhaps like Lady Justice (or like a judge-ish) for us viewers Felicity holds the key to Ray's future as either a villain or a hero, and that is why we the viewers are still unable to make up our mind if he is good or bad, because Felicity (AKA Lady Justice) verdict is still "out" (that's the term right?).

I mean look at her view on Oliver... she very quickly, before anyone else- let alone he himself, called him a hero. The scales had been tipped in his favor as far as she was concerned, there was no blind over her eyes, everything was laid out on the table - even before she knew Oliver was the Vigilante.

ETA02: from Wiki-

Her modern iconography frequently adorns courthouses and courtrooms, and conflates the attributes of several goddesses who embodied Right Rule for Greeks and Romans, blending Roman blindfolded Fortuna (fate) with Hellenistic Greek Tyche (luck), and sword-carrying Nemesis (vengeance).
Lady Justice is most often depicted with a set of scales typically suspended from her right hand, upon which she measures the strengths of a case's support and opposition.[citation needed] She is also often seen carrying a double-edged sword in her left hand, symbolizing the power of Reason and Justice, which may be wielded either for or against any party

The blindfold represents objectivity, in that justice is or should be meted out objectively, without fear or favour, regardless of identity, personal wealth, power, or weakness; blind justice and impartiality.

Interesting Trivia: prior to 15th century Lady Justice was not blindfolded because her

“maidenly form” is supposed to guarantee her impartiality

Edited November 29, 2014 by foreverevolving

Password · November 29, 2014

That's actually a good point. She does seem to not see him that clearly. I mentioned up thread that her reactions have been very emotionally charged with him.

I'm not convinced Ray is eeeeeviillll, he's just shady with his...dealings. And I also don't think the writers would necessarily do that to Felicity. They're hell bent on her "having a choice" and if Ray turns out to be evil, and Felicity told Cooper she's not down with that, then "there was no choice to make".

foreverevolving · November 29, 2014

You know? the more i think about it the more it makes sense... The Lady Justice analogy (or is it metaphor?)

Whenever Felicity liked someone they ended up being a good person, and whenever she didn't or was nervous in a fearful way they ended up evil or super gray/dark.

I think we said something similar before, that Felicity has this inner barometer and she just knows when someone is a good person and when they are not. and yet she still blindfoldedly accepts everyone - to her anyone can be redeemed. Isn't that what the system is for? if you are found not guilty you are free to go, but if you are found guilty you are punished for your crimes by serving time, and by serving you have paid your debt.

ETA: and I am sorry if i'm getting the Lady Justice & Justice System mythology/info wrong. I am not in the Law business and my roman mythology isn't as strong as my grecian one- and even that one is rusty, so..

Edited November 29, 2014 by foreverevolving

calliope1975 · November 29, 2014

The problem is we know Felicity is generally a really good judge of character. And I actually don't think Ray is a bad guy. The show wants to be ambiguous though and keep us guessing about Ray, but they are not good at this. Plus, they use Felicity to introduce characters they want liked. I guess it all seems lame to me - I know Ray isn't a real option for Felicity, and I know Ray becomes a hero. I feel like they are dumbing down Felicity in order to facilitate both these things.

While the show used to flip the script, that creativity seems to have left the building and now we get cliche after cliche. Turn Ray into a villain or have Laurel fail at becoming BC and decide to remain (only) an attorney, and I will praise TPTB to the high heavens.

Ceylon5 · November 29, 2014

I don't really see the big deal about Felicity's speech. First, with regards to the way her eyes glow when she's wearing contacts - that's something I've noticed every time she doesn't wear her glasses. She looks younger, more vulnerable and more emotional when she doesn't have her glasses on, and I think people just noticed it more in this scene because they were objecting to the scene in general. She didn't actually seem especially emotional to me at all. Just sincere. As to what she said:

Felicity: "I don't blame you for not wanting to sell Ray your mine, 'cause you don't know what his plans are. The thing about Ray is he's not a businessman. Businessmen make deals; they make money. What Ray is is something else entirely."

Other dude: "Perhaps you'd enlighten us?"

Felicity: "He inspires. Ray isn't interested in making money; he is interested in making the world a better place. So if Ray wants your mine, believe me, it's because he's going to put it to the kind of use that's gonna make you proud."

All of which I've seen from the beginning and agree with. Ray has, from the get-go, said he wants to "save" Starling through QC. He's an ideas guy, and he's full of enthusiasm and drive (too much sometimes!). There is nothing even remotely surprising about all that appealing to Felicity or about her being glad and proud to be a part of his vision. Ray may have additional ulterior motives (she helped Oliver before she knew his secret, despite knowing he was lying, so that's not really an objection that would fly anyway), but I still believe that he's doing a lot of good at face value with and for QC, and there's no reason why Felicity shouldn't enjoy her work or respect what Ray is doing. (And really, do you all want to be told more about co-generation than we have been already? I don't. It's a Good Thing they're doing, is all I really needed to know.) I get that some people dislike that character/actor, but that isn't any reason why Felicity should. We've been shown enough reasons why she'd like him despite her initial anger at him. Given that she puts up with Oliver, who is far more controlling than Ray and a murderer to boot, I find it surprising that anyone thinks it odd that she doesn't find Ray a problem.

Look, I absolutely wish that Felicity appeared in at least 20 minutes of every episode and got to have her own storyline well fleshed out and carefully written, but that has never, ever happened for her on this show, and it's unlikely to ever happen in the future, so I'll put up with getting patchy story-telling, because I prefer that to her having no story-line of her own at all. They've told us enough for me to not feel confused, just vaguely irritated that they always skip the parts I want to see (like the 5 months of flirting with Oliver between seasons). I knew when they did her big Very Special Episode that that was most likely the only time we'll get to see her home or really get any real back-story on her this season (or possibly ever again). I think Very Special Episodes are the shoddiest, laziest ways to tell a character's story, because they use a sudden information dump in lieu of developing the character's back-story steadily the rest of the time, but since it's a hell of a lot better than nothing at all, I take what I can get. And Felicity is getting more screen-time than she used to, and it's her own separate storyline, which is a huge change, so even if it's only a few minutes every other episode, into which they can't cram enough story to really make it flow the way most of us would prefer, it's still better than nothing.

Another thought while I was writing this - I was wondering why they decided to start Ray's story off on the back-foot (making his bid for QC slightly - and completely unnecessarily - unethical, and infuriating Felicity into the bargain). Why even do any of that, and create all that friction between Felicity and Ray? In retrospect, though, that is part of what gave Felicity power in the Felicity/Ray dynamic. Without that beginning, if he was just a visionary billionaire who saw Felicity's gifts and offered her a top level job, all the power in their relationship would have been on his side, and the relationship would have been pretty dull to boot. Her relationship with Barry works because they don't have an uneven power dynamic. Her relationship with Oliver bothers some people because they still feel that Oliver has too much power in their dynamic (they see her as his subordinate), even without his money. Ray and Felicity's even power balance has been created by how their relationship started (her anger negated any awe she might have felt and his imperfections off-set his wealth) and his huge respect for and need of her skills (which off-sets his power as her boss). Ray is, at the very least, ambiguous and interesting. Felicity likes mysteries, so this works out well for all concerned. Well, except maybe Oliver, but that's his own stupid fault!

Regarding Ray keeping secrets from her - that's neither here nor there to me. Why shouldn't he? She certainly doesn't tell him all the stuff she gets up to! They don't yet have the kind of relationship where I'd expect him to tell her all his Special Secrets or vice versa.

ETA: For interest's sake - Felicity has had quite a bit more screen-time with Barry (in 2x08, 2x09 and Flash 1x04) than she's had so far with Ray in the 5 episodes he's been in.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Ceylon5

katniss85 · November 29, 2014

I think the Felicity/Ray power dynamic is actually pretty even - unlike the early Felicity/Oliver one, which he definitely abused at times. He's the hero, so we know his viewpoint and cut him a lot of slack as a result, but he was as dodgy as hell in the beginning (it really should bother us all more that he was a serial killer...), and is only marginally better now. Whatever Ray may or may not be, I think Felicity is older, stronger and more sure of who she is now than she was two years ago, and I hope from here on out she will continue to make choices based on what she wants to do, and never again allow someone else to push her around the way Oliver did. The condescending way he still keeps telling her she needs to give 100% or get her head in the game (after everything they've been through!) really annoys the crap out of me, and I hope one of these days she tells him to go and watch High School Musical and then see if he ever wants to use that expression again. Dammit, now I have that song in my head!

YES. This always pissed me off so much. Like, Felicity has been doing this arrow stuff for more than 2 years now, she knows what she is doing.

Like, Oliver you don't get to be consdescending to her and take your anger out on her when you are in a bad mood as Felicity does the arrow stuff everynight for free becasue she wants to save the city as much as Oliver and Diggle.

So, Oliver could at least be sometimes, i don't know grateful that she is still willing to take risks for the arrow cause while still having a busy job as vice president of PT and unlike, Oliver who at the beginning of the season, got recognition for the hero stuff by Quentin and the people of starling city, neither Felicity nor Diggle get any recognition for the many ways, they helped Oliver save the city.JMO.

BkWurm1 · November 30, 2014

Maybe Felicity did think that it was the same thing as Oliver getting her a dress for the Dodger's auction. He wanted her to look good, so he provided the dress. And in Ray's case, a fortune in diamonds. So that leaves us with the options that either Felicity is shallow because an expensive dress and necklace leaves her panting for dressing up and not asking the questions of Ray that she should be (like why did he buy a dress for her specifically when there were a hundred other women who he could have gone to the dinner with), or she's become stupid and doesn't question Ray's actions. Frankly, neither possibility thrills me.

Or the third possibility that Felicity feels that she has all the answers that she needs right now. Neither the dress nor the necklace come with strings because not only does she know Palmer wouldn't expect them, but also because even if he got some cockeye idea in his head, she's not bound by anyone's expectations. That 's where the question of power comes in and Felicity is not in any danger of being coerced or pressured by Ray.

tessaray · November 30, 2014

I didn't get a Pretty Woman vibe from the dress/necklace scene but more of a Kaylee/Shindig vibe. (Firefly) I think it's an interesting part of Felicity's character that she likes pretty dresses and isn't the stereotypical geek. :-) I laughed when she inhaled the couture dress.

statsgirl · November 30, 2014

Interesting Trivia: prior to 15th century Lady Justice was not blindfolded because her "“maidenly form” is supposed to guarantee her impartiality"

That's funny/interesting because if anyone on the show has the innocence of the unicorn's virgin, it's Felicity.

Or the third possibility that Felicity feels that she has all the answers that she needs right now. Neither the dress nor the necklace come with strings because not only does she know Palmer wouldn't expect them, but also because even if he got some cockeye idea in his head, she's not bound by anyone's expectations. That 's where the question of power comes in and Felicity is not in any danger of being coerced or pressured by Ray.

I think that's the problem, that Felicity feels that she has all the answers she needs right now because if she were thinking straight, she'd know that she doesn't. She doesn't know Ray Palmer well enough to know if he's a really a good guy or just putting on a show. He comes in, takes over QC, says he's going to save Starling... er... Star City, buys Tech Village just to have her working for him, jumps her at least four levels ahead in management, gives her mother an expensive prototype wearable tech, and supplies her with an expensive dress and jewels for a business supper. Felicity very much underestimated Moira and just got completey snowed by Cooper. I love Felicity but I'm thinking that they are writing her to have flat learning cutve when it comes to trusting shady people.

The problem is we know Felicity is generally a really good judge of character. And I actually don't think Ray is a bad guy. The show wants to be ambiguous though and keep us guessing about Ray, but they are not good at this. Plus, they use Felicity to introduce characters they want liked. I guess it all seems lame to me - I know Ray isn't a real option for Felicity, and I know Ray becomes a hero. I feel like they are dumbing down Felicity in order to facilitate both these things.

I just saw a good documentary on psychopaths (followed by one on Jian Ghomeshi), and honestly, I wouldn't rule Ray out. That is, I will because I know the show isn't going there but in real life, I wouldn't.

The show wants it both ways -- to make Ray a good guy and to have him shady enough that it keeps the audience guessing. It doesn't work because as Robert Docherty said, "As much as the Hunger Games and Arrow masterminds have still gotten right recently, the crucial things they’ve gotten wrong so far -- and may keep getting wrong for a while yet – have caused too much doubt for even loyal fans to go completely on faith anymore."

YES. This always pissed me off so much. Like, Felicity has been doing this arrow stuff for more than 2 years now, she knows what she is doing.

Like, Oliver you don't get to be consdescending to her and take your anger out on her when you are in a bad mood as Felicity does the arrow stuff everynight for free because she wants to save the city as much as Oliver and Diggle.

Oliver's always been a jerk like that, taking it out of Felicity when life doesn't go the way he wants it to go. I don't know if we're supposed to think it romantic, that she's his 'unconditional positive regard' but it's really annoying me this year because she deserves better than the way he treats her.

After a point, as a viewer I can't be so much in love with Oliver that I handwave how he treats those who are close to him.

Edited November 30, 2014 by statsgirl

MsSchadenfreude · November 30, 2014

Or the third possibility that Felicity feels that she has all the answers that she needs right now. Neither the dress nor the necklace come with strings because not only does she know Palmer wouldn't expect them, but also because even if he got some cockeye idea in his head, she's not bound by anyone's expectations. That 's where the question of power comes in and Felicity is not in any danger of being coerced or pressured by Ray.

Yep, I don't see how Felicity is acting stupid or OOC by trusting her instincts with Ray, when she did the exact same thing with Oliver. At the time Felicity started doing favors for Oliver, the vigilante had already killed how many people in Starling...7,8 or more. But for some reason Felicity thought she could trust Oliver even though his behavior should have set off multiple red flags. As it turns out Felicity's instincts were right about Oliver and I'm inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt with Ray.

Edited November 30, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

BkWurm1 · November 30, 2014

I think that's the problem, that Felicity feels that she has all the answers she needs right now because if she were thinking straight, she'd know that she doesn't. She doesn't know Ray Palmer well enough to know if he's a really a good guy or just putting on a show. He comes in, takes over QC, says he's going to save Starling... er... Star City, buys Tech Village just to have her working for him, jumps her at least four levels ahead in management, gives her mother an expensive prototype wearable tech, and supplies her with an expensive dress and jewels for a business supper. Felicity very much underestimated Moira and just got completey snowed by Cooper. I love Felicity but I'm thinking that they are writing her to have flat learning cutve when it comes to trusting shady people.

I guess we are at different places of understanding here because while Felicity doesn't know all of Palmers secrets or even that he isn't just some transparent guy, I still don't think that is a problem or something that stands in her way of deciding he is a good guy. All the different things you list like taking over QC, planning to save Starling, buying Tech Village, promoting her to VP, and being generous to her mother and to her - none of that is IMO given the circumstances some big red flag.

Going after QC, wanting to turn around Starling and doing an over the top pursuit of her as a business asset - Felicity knows all of this and at this point she's decided that he's not a crazed stalker but is actually a visionary that puts his goals and the good of the city ahead of profit. She got to know him better and adjusted her impression.

I think it is fair to say the show didn't take the time to show us WHY Felicity decided to trust him or when it happened, but it hasn't given her any ongoing reasons not to trust him. Ray promoting her to VP and being even overly generous with the watch to her mom and the dress and the necklace isn't seen as nefarious from Felicity's viewpoint and given who Palmer is and what we know of Felicity's relationship with him, I can't view it as suspect either.

Felicity has only known him for a few months and yes, that isn't long enough to know a person through and through but sometimes decades or lifetimes isn't enough to know a person through and through. People can hide their dark side but I think it is very much in Felicity's personality to look for the best of people until they give her reason not to. Not in a naïve way or some foolish blindness, but due to a basic belief in people. I can't say I found Felicity naïve about Moira and I certainly don't think she EVER trusted her. The whole reason she was investigating her past Walter telling her he would handle it was because she didn't trust Moira. She went to Moira because she thought it was the right thing to do, not because she thought it would be an easy or simple conversation. I think even if she was 100% sure Moira would brush her off or try to turn things around on her, I think Felicity would still have gone to Moira and given her the opportunity to tell Oliver and I guess I look at that as a strength rather than a weakness or a sign of naivety.

As for Cooper, we don't know how actively he deceived her before going to jail. We know their views of acceptable were in different places but the roommate also seemed shocked by Cooper's actions so at least we know that it wasn't something obvious that she was willfully overlooking. Again, having faced betrayal in her life but still being able to believe and trust in people, I can't see that as a weakness.

Now if Palmer actually does something that she becomes aware of that is worthy of investigating and she puts her head in the sand, that would be a different ballgame, but for now, what she knows and what she needs to know lets her trust at the very least that his intentions are genuine and I tend to think she's going to be right.

I think it is also important to remember that while Ray's actions might trigger some people's alarm buttons, his actions don't do that to everyone and I don't think that makes one group of people so decidedly more correct over another group, it just means that different people have different experiences that lead them to different understandings. The very definition of MMV. :)

Edited November 30, 2014 by BkWurm1

Ceylon5 · November 30, 2014

I think this is a clear case of the audience having a double standard. The audience will always have more sympathy for the hero, whose story we know well and with whom we can therefore sympathise. Characters who can see what we see about the hero, even without having the information we have, are applauded (e.g. Felicity in the first season when she helped and trusted Oliver, despite knowing he was lying to her and was clearly up to some dodgy stuff).

Palmer is not the hero and the audience doesn't yet know his story or his motivations. Because he's painted as ambiguous to us, we're not sure whether he can be trusted. A character who then trusts someone we don't yet trust, even though they don't know what we know, is therefore criticised, even if their actions are completely consistent with past actions (Felicity).

It's really simple to me. I liked that Felicity saw good in Oliver even when he really wasn't good at all. Her belief in him is part of what is changing him from being a killer with a hit-list into someone who is genuinely doing good. He's still mostly a hypocritical, controlling jackass, but he's our hypocritical, controlling jackass, so we don't criticise Felicity for loving him anyway. Felicity had just under 11 minutes in Oliver's company in the first 12 episodes of season 1 (i.e. prior to finding him bleeding in her car). I think, based on what we saw, it's fair to say we saw pretty much the sum total of their interactions at that time (i.e. there were no scenes between them off-screen that we were not privy to, other than maybe a couple of minutes of hellos or goodbyes at the beginning or end of a couple of the scenes). Based on those 11 or so minutes, Felicity chose to trust Oliver, evidence that he was Up To No Good notwithstanding. And whether she was right to is very much a matter of opinion. Oliver may be the show's hero, but he's not exactly a good guy (IMO). I find Felicity's shades of grey (in that she's always been mostly okay with Oliver and what he does) is part of what makes her interesting and unusual.

With Palmer, she's already had considerably more than 11 minutes of screen-time, but quite aside from that, we know that she's spent tons of off-screen time with Palmer which we didn't see. She's been working with him closely for a while now. She therefore knows him better than the audience does, which is a very different situation to the one with Oliver, where we knew him and she didn't. Sure, we've seen two tiny scenes where he's shown having a side-project that Felicity doesn't know about, but that doesn't help us know who he is as a person. Felicity has chosen to believe in the good he's doing, and even if he turns out to be a bad guy, I don't see how that makes her stupid or naive or whatever other names are being bandied about so freely. It's not in her nature to go around squinting distrustfully at everyone on principle. It's a lot more likely, though, that she's right about him in the same kind of dubious way she was right about Oliver. Either way, there's no harm in her believing in what he's doing right now. If she finds out more about him and changes her mind, that's fine by me too.

With Cooper, I don't think it's fair to say that what happened there needs to inform how much/whom she trusts going forward. I think that situation initially paralleled her one with Oliver - the guy was more zealous than her and went about things in a way she couldn't get behind (Cooper with the loans, Oliver with the killing). Unfortunately, she never got a chance to coax the hero out of Cooper because he went to prison. He then used her program as a get out of jail free card, selfishly didn't risk his freedom to let her know he was alive and ultimately went over to the dark side. That he changed over those five years apart from her isn't any reason for Felicity not to ever trust anyone again. One of Felicity's finest qualities is believing when no-one else does and I hope she doesn't lose that as some perverted form of 'character growth'. Being someone who has hope and faith is not a character flaw, IMO.

So, I think the point that is being missed is that Felicity doesn't just trust people who are already perfectly trustworthy up-standing citizens - she trusts people (like Oliver) who are far from "safe" or "good" in the now, but in whom she can see a future good; a future heroism. Even if Oliver fails to achieve what she hopes for him, that doesn't make her faith any less appealing. And her choosing to place some of that faith in people other than Oliver, people the audience isn't as sold on (like Ray), does not diminish her in my eyes. I like Felicity not being defined purely in terms of Oliver. Her ability to believe is about her not him. Some of the audience would clearly prefer Felicity to be all about Oliver all the time, but I'm glad we're being shown that Felicity is who she is and will continue to be who she is with or without Oliver.

And I apologise - I seem incapable of short posts!

Edited November 30, 2014 by Ceylon5

foreverevolving · November 30, 2014

..........

And I apologise - I seem incapable of short posts!

if you'll allow me:

Edited November 30, 2014 by foreverevolving

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