Fosse/Verdon - General Discussion

[alexvillage]

13 hours ago, luvthepros said:

One question or concern......why didn't Gwen raise her son along with Nicole? I don't understand why she eliminated her son from her life when she longed for children.

Her son was about 20 years older than Nicole but according to the book He did see his mother from time to time and he got to spend time with Bob and Gwen when he was a tween/teen. 

[tennisgurl]

I finally saw All That Jazz, and it was certainly an interesting watch after this show. I can’t watch now without thinking of Bobby in the background working out his mountains of issues. While it’s not a full on Disney style real life revision or anything, you can see Bobby trying to show himself warts and all, it feels like he was always holding back, possibly because even he didn’t even really understand the severity of many aspects of his life, especially involving his screwed up relationship with sex and power dynamics. This show and the film are a really interesting double viewing and even beyond Gwen and Bobby (or the Gwen stand in) it’s great seeing the way Hollywood and Broadway changed over the years, it’s a fascinating little look at a specific time and place and the people there.

[MJS]

On 5/30/2019 at 1:34 PM, iMonrey said:

Yes but it felt gratuitous and short-handed. They should have either incorporated Nicole's story with the same attention paid to her parents or omit it. There were scenes with just Nicole, or just Nicole and her friends. So it wasn't entirely limited to her interactions with her parents. I'm proposing it should have been since they didn't really flesh out her character.

The scenes with Nicole and her friends was to contrast how neglected she was, making really bad choices, while he played make believe with a Nicole stand in on the set of ATJ. it was to highlight, IMHO, his (and Gwen's) limitations as a parent.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, MJS said:

The scenes with Nicole and her friends was to contrast how neglected she was, making really bad choices, while he played make believe with a Nicole stand in on the set of ATJ. it was to highlight, IMHO, his (and Gwen's) limitations as a parent.

Eh, Nicole in the ATJ was younger and by that point teenage Nicole was demanding freedom to hang out with friends even when Gwen tried to stop it.  The other kids in the scene with her didn't have G&B as parents and were also getting high. 

I thought it was more about Nicole being angry at Bob's using her moment for his movie. 

[MJS]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Eh, Nicole in the ATJ was younger and by that point teenage Nicole was demanding freedom to hang out with friends even when Gwen tried to stop it.  The other kids in the scene with her didn't have G&B as parents and were also getting high. 

I thought it was more about Nicole being angry at Bob's using her moment for his movie. 

Well, yes, that’s part of what I was getting at.

It was the parallel- while she’s not being paid attention to and getting into trouble he has the relationship with her daughter-stand in. This happened both the dancing rehearsal scene but more obviously with the “take a lap scene”. The scene when he picks up his “daughter” applauding him in the “audience”, it was being cut along side the scene with a Nicole almost falling off the building with her friends. 

While the Nicole and her friends scene did provide some insight into her life, I think the reason it was shown was to illustrate that he wasn't having a meaningful relationship with her, just the idea of her. So it’s not that they skimped on her story, but what that part of her story revealed about him. 

[alexvillage]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

Eh, Nicole in the ATJ was younger and by that point teenage Nicole was demanding freedom to hang out with friends even when Gwen tried to stop it.  The other kids in the scene with her didn't have G&B as parents and were also getting high. 

I thought it was more about Nicole being angry at Bob's using her moment for his movie. 

That scene and was a mix and match of things that happened at different times. Bob did ask Nicole to do the ballet movements to his, but the dialogue wasn't how it appeared in the series (according to the book). It also happened at a different time, when Nicole was younger. I am not sure if Nicole was present when the movie was being shot.

[Domestic Assassin]

15 minutes ago, alexvillage said:

I am not sure if Nicole was present when the movie was being shot.

She's an extra in the film. (She's doing stretches in front of a vending machine and Joe asks her if she can do that somewhere else).

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

While the Nicole and her friends scene did provide some insight into her life, I think the reason it was shown was to illustrate that he wasn't having a meaningful relationship with her, just the idea of her. So it’s not that they skimped on her story, but what that part of her story revealed about him. 

That sums it up better than I did, you're right--that for him she's almost more real when he's changed her into his own creation for what he's making. He clearly has a lot of affection for Michelle, her fictional counterpart. He sees himself as letting her down. But he channels his guilt into presenting it as art rather than really making an effort with her that we see.

1 hour ago, Domestic Assassin said:

She's an extra in the film. (She's doing stretches in front of a vending machine and Joe asks her if she can do that somewhere else).

Oh wow, that's her? I didn't know that. Cool! 

[alexvillage]

1 hour ago, Domestic Assassin said:

She's an extra in the film. (She's doing stretches in front of a vending machine and Joe asks her if she can do that somewhere else).

Right, sorry. I meant that scene. Actors do their bit and they are done, they usually don't stick around to watch other actors' scenes. 

sistermagpie, Nicole is credited as "dancer" in the movie.

[luvthepros]

On 5/29/2019 at 10:15 AM, Rinaldo said:

It seems to have been deliberately and successfully kept secret. One website today congratulated frequent tweeter LMM for never breathing a word.

Lin-Manuel Miranda is listed in the credits on IMDb. I scanned the credits before starting to watch the series so I knew to look for him as Roy Scheider.

[luvthepros]

On 5/29/2019 at 11:42 AM, TimWil said:

Fosse had epilepsy? Why did they slip that in at the very last moment?

Fosse's epilepsy was mentioned in an earlier episode. In fact, I believe it was Bob who stated he was on medication for seizures. I can't recall which episode he mentioned this.

[luvthepros]

On 5/29/2019 at 4:38 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

Out of curiosity, what did they do with the opening performance of Sweet Charity that night?  Did they cancel or go on? 

Since viewing this series, I've read many articles about Fosse/Verdon.....many linked on this forum. In one of those articles, the performance went on but the cast was not notified of Fosse's death until after the performance. They did have the opening night after party although, it was very sombre, toasting Fosse.

[Loandbehold]

37 minutes ago, luvthepros said:

Fosse's epilepsy was mentioned in an earlier episode. In fact, I believe it was Bob who stated he was on medication for seizures. I can't recall which episode he mentioned this.

I believe it was Gwen who mentioned it to the doctor when Bob was in the hospital after his heart attack. 

[luvthepros]

On 5/29/2019 at 8:24 PM, raven said:

Here is an interesting interview with Nicole.

Now I realize why the actress playing teen Nicole was cast........she is a dead ringer for Nicole Fosse as a young girl. Just WOW at the resemblance. Thanks for this link and this photo of Nicole.

[JeanneH]

I just found this fascinating 1983 interview with Gwen on YT.  She is being interviewed by Rian Keating for a public access program. 36 years later Rian Keating posted it on YT (in March 2019).  In the notes he wrote:

Quote

Gwen Verdon answered the phone when I called number for Nicole Fosse in the Manhattan phone directory. When I explained what I wanted, she very politely said no, but reconsidered when I said But Spotlight! was a poor man's Dick Cavett show without the self-referential narcissism and you-can-talk-about-anything you-want!" It was then she agreed to an interview, so she could discuss the psychological issues facing actors trying to balance family life. She asked what she should wear and I said not black or white, but what could I say when she walked in and saw how tongue-tied and young I was? She was extremely kind and this would have been at any age. Turn up the sound because there has been a lot of deterioration on the VHS.

Edited June 12, 2019 by JeanneH

[luvthepros]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:47 PM, scrb said:

One of the last scenes, they're watching another dancer/singer do one of the numbers and they're contemptuous of her performance.

The dancer they were watching was none other than Debbie Allen.

[luvthepros]

On 6/5/2019 at 2:50 PM, iMonrey said:

Nicole is different, she's a product of Fosse and Verdon and the writers couldn't seem to decide if they really wanted to flesh out her character or not, so what little they did felt half-assed.

I'm in another camp as I thought I was given enough insight into Nicole. In fact, I could have done with less. My main focus was on Bob and Gwen and actually, I would have liked this series to go on for another eight episodes focused on them. As other have said, I wanted more behind the scenes of the creation of their shows and Bob's movies. I just didn't get enough of that. LOVED this mini series.

[rur]

On 6/3/2019 at 10:47 PM, scrb said:

One of the last scenes, they're watching another dancer/singer do one of the numbers and they're contemptuous of her performance.  Fosse tells Verdon to show her how to do it and Verdon does this false modesty "are you serious, me, dance and sing now?"

I'm not sure contemptuous would be the right word. Or maybe it could be said they were contemptuous of the interpretation. Gwen had already talked about how good Debbie was. 

[luvthepros]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:00 PM, sistermagpie said:

When she got pregnant the first time she was very young, had no career and didn't yet really long for a child. Raising her son meant spending her life in the town where she was born and being married to (and financially dependent on) the father. She left the son to make a career and life for herself. Then when she was older and had a career she was at a time in her life when she wanted children. By the time Nicole was born in 1963 her son would have been 20 years old and Gwen was a very different person.

Oh, I didn't do the math. Had no idea her son was 20 when Nicole was born.

[luvthepros]

22 hours ago, Loandbehold said:

I believe it was Gwen who mentioned it to the doctor when Bob was in the hospital after his heart attack. 

Yes, you are correct about that.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Making the music:

[AriAu]

Whole lot of Emmy's

Best limited series,, best actor, best actress (gotta beat out Amy Adams to win) and even best supporting for Margaret Qualley.

[Loandbehold]

LA Times article where Michelle Williams and Sam Rockwell discuss their time on Fosse/Verdon.

[wendyg]

Going back to the piece about the strippers and molesting him, I think lost in the sexual abuse aspect is the fact of the viciousness of the  timing, which was guaranteed to ensure maximum public humiliation for him as a performer. (That comes across very clearly in ATJ, where the audience laughing at his public shame is the real horror of the whole thing.)

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Three Emmy wins!

Outstanding Makeup for a Limited Series or Movie (Non-Prosthetic)

Outstanding Hairstyling for a Limited Series or Movie

Outstanding Music Direction - Life Is a Cabaret

[Inquisitionist]

Rolling Stone gets behind Michelle Williams.  

Quote

Outstanding Lead Actress in a Limited Series or Movie

Amy Adams, Sharp Objects
Patricia Arquette, Escape at Dannemora
Aunjanue Ellis, When They See Us
Joey King, The Act
Niecy Nash, When They See Us
Michelle Williams, Fosse/Verdon

SHOULD WIN: Throw a dart at a board with these six names, and you likely won’t go wrong no matter where it lands. For most of the year, I was Team Adams for her searing work in Sharp Objects. Then I saw the Fosse/Verdon episode about the making of Chicago, and the razzle dazzle of Michelle Williams moved her to the top of my list.

WILL WIN: Arquette beat Adams at the Golden Globes and SAG Awards in the winter and seemed the clear Emmy favorite. Then Fosse/Verdon debuted, and I think the sheer excellence of what Michelle Williams does, coupled with the showbiz themes, will get her the win.

I'll be honest:  I've seen only two episodes of When They See Us, and nothing from the rest, but it's really hard to imagine anyone surpassing MW in this category.  She was sublime.

[alexvillage]

I only watched Fosse/Verdon and When They See Us, out of the other ones with the nominated actresses. The thing is, I cannot even compare the other two with Michelle for the simple reason that I was so taken aback by the men's performances in one show, and Michelle was magnificent as Verdon.

Maybe it is not fair but that's just how it is. Michelle was great, she had more exposure as far as screen time, and she deserves it. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Congratulations to Michelle Williams for winning an Emmy for Lead Actress in a Limited Series or Movie!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

At the Emmys!

Michelle Williams:

Margaret Qualley:

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Michelle's acceptance speech:

[Inquisitionist]

I'm so thrilled that Michelle Williams won for her portrayal of Gwen Verdon.  And what a speech!

[aradia22]

I had my reservations. I've never liked Michelle Williams and I saw Sam Rockwell give a terrible performance in a play. But I ended up loving it.

From the moment they started doing the Big Spender number from Sweet Charity, I was hooked. They captured the strengths of the movie but there's also a way all these scenes are directed and lit and costumed and set decorated that has its own artistic merit and energy. 

It took me a while. I kept seeing the actors, and I don't know if they ever really disappeared. But the two leads play things so naturalistically and the script is also well-written so they felt like real people.

What I loved was the dialogue and situations really felt like being backstage on a show or the set of a movie. Both the artistic decisions and the drama. THIS is what Smash should have been like. 

Michelle Williams wasn't really doing a Gwen Verdon voice but I didn't mind. She was less affected than I've ever seen her. Usually I can see her "acting."

I think I recognized all the theater actors from Laura Osnes to Andrew Kober. It took me a second to see Norbert Leo Butz through the hair but I got there. I was already annoyed at Laura in 30 seconds but I LOVED Kelli Barrett as Liza. She was fabulous. The only issue I had was with the title song when she was singing at the piano. I think the accent slipped a little and in general you could hear how different their voices are. What's Liza? An mezzo... maybe an alto? Kelli is a soprano all the way and she can belt but it's not going to sound the same. 

I think they did a good job of weaving the marriage drama into what was already happening in their lives. I didn't mind the time jumping though I'm hesitant about how it will play out through the entire series. I felt a little burned by AHS Versace. I don't know that non-linear storytelling is that effective. It gets unwieldy quickly.

[aradia22]

EPISODE 2: This show is so smart. Everything is working. The script, the acting, the direction... You see that initial antagonism with that obvious attraction between Verdon and Fosse right from the start. And there's no tertiary character giving exposition or a meaningful look or having a conversation with one of the leads to underscore it. You just get it because the show is constructed well enough for you to get it.

As a theater person and someone who clearly dives deep into thinking about artistic choices in media I love all the little explanations of why certain choices were made. 

I think the show has been smart so far about showing a little of Williams and Rockwell singing and dancing but not so much that the audience would start to get judge-y. They're both decent singers but especially with her, she's not doing the voice. And it's not Gwen Verdon without the voice. But this isn't a Smash situation where you had long musical numbers and time to think about how neither actress was a very good Marilyn. 

I love the subtle ways in which the show is consciously depicting Fosse. It's in the dialogue a little but it's really in the acting and direction which are so smart. You can see the way he pushes into her space, the way he puts his hands on her, the way he doesn't back down at times... It's not overplayed. He's not violent or overly coercive. No one is dropping an anvil about sexism or different times. But the show also doesn't leave it flat where you might assume any of this behavior is okay or even romantic when depicting the affair. 

I do like the quick flashbacks and the use of the intense tap-dancing for him. It does remind me of Hamilton a little. But that idea that he never forgot to work hard because he could always be replaced and that giving him anxiety. 

I also like that the show is smart in showing the way Gwen stands up to him or undercuts him. She has agency. She chooses how much she's going to let happen. She chooses to be with him... until she doesn't. I don't want that to sound like victim blaming for anyone in an abusive relationship. It's more like... the show doesn't depict her as gullible or naive. She knows exactly what he's doing and whether having an affair is healthy, etc. She's not a dumb character. She's not tricked into anything. She's not even swept up by emotion. She makes choices. It's subtle and mature in a way so many pieces of media are not. 

[aradia22]

EPISODE 3: Okay... okay... They're making choices. I mean, they've been making choices from the beginning with Fosse imagining himself committing suicide and all the flashbacks but I feel like they were really trying some things this episode with the fantasy sequences and the flashbacks. I'm not going to love everything but I like direction with personality and vision.

Again, I liked how Fosse wasn't a cartoon villain while still being the bad guy of the show. He isn't presented as a monster but the show clearly isn't condoning his behavior. 

I'm not sure yet how I feel about the serial cheating. On the one hand, they sorted of flirted with the idea he was just not cut out for monogamy on the beach. But of course with that sort of thing, everyone needs to be on the same page or else you're just cheating on your spouse. And he clearly didn't want her doing the same. But they've also moved to depicting the womanizing as an unhealthy addiction as much as the sleeping pills/drugs. It's more than a healthy libido. It's more than loneliness or arrogance or selfishness or whatever else. It's compulsive and self-destructive in the way addiction and mental health issues are. 

This episode was rough in the depiction of the rape and her parents coercing her to marry her rapist and raise the baby (at least until she found a way out). And to think, I was so happy to see Santino. All I'll say is that I appreciated that since it had to happen (as a part of her life story) that it was not fetishized or exploitative. We didn't linger on it. The choppy editing made it intense so we could empathize with the character without forcing the audience to watch sexual violence or to mine her emotional pain and misery.

I appreciated how this episode showed why they were drawn back together. Though it is clearly on the side of him needing her more than she needed him with the way he undermines her acting in a straight play and then his advice doesn't help at all when her input always helps him. I do wonder how much of that is true. I don't doubt that she contributed artistically to his work, even more than most spouses given her expertise. But it's Bob Fosse. He couldn't be completely incompetent without her. Starting from the affair on Damn Yankees the show has been depicting him as completely lost without her advice. 

[aradia22]

Quote

I loved when he asked if anyone had acting experience. When one asked if porn counted, they then all raised their hands. Hah!

One thing I really appreciate is that though this is very much a drama, it finds some natural moments of levity. Sarcasm and wit is fine when Fosse and Verdon are fighting and trading barbs but without genuine humor and joy, this would be a slog. Weirdly, I'm enjoying this more than season 1 of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel which also depicted the dissolution of a marriage but much less effectively.

Quote

Michelle Williams WAS in "Cabaret" on Broadway, y'all. She's not some Hollywood wannabe.

Hrm. That performance wasn't met with universal acclaim. I chose to see Emma Stone. And Sally isn't really a strong singing part anyway.

I feel like I have a good knowledge base to appreciate this show. I know enough of their Broadway careers to follow what's happening but not too much. (Damn Yankees is a show that has continued to escape me. I know it has fans but... baseball.) I've seen enough of Cabaret to appreciate the musical numbers but I've never been able to make it through the movie from start to finish. And I've never seen anything of All That Jazz so any homages/ripoffs feel brand new to me. 

[aradia22]

Quote

Gritty realism was the name of the game almost the whole decade (I can almost always tell a 70s movie just by the gritty look of it!), people clamored for stories with sex, violence, and anti heroes, and studios basically let all of these super artsy quirky genius perfectionist directors do whatever they wanted

Quote

There were not a lot of female centric films that was critically acclaimed in the 70s. I lived it. I hated it.

Yeah... probably why my film knowledge stops somewhere in the 60's and only picks up again in earnest in the 90's. Not that there wasn't machismo or male-orienting filmmaking throughout the history of movies but it's pretty easy to skip all the Westerns and gangster movies of early cinema and still be left with great rom-coms, musicals, and "women's pictures." Off the top of my head, the only 70's movie I can think of that I've seen is The Way We Were.

Quote

And she can be ruthless too, cutting out dancers.

I'm not certain how I feel about everything yet but for now I'm glad things aren't too catty. For instance, on another show I could see them implying that Gwen just cut dancers that she worried Bob was attracted to. And the scene with his first wife in the powder room was cutting but didn't devolve into histrionics or even much of a fight. 

Quote

I think people go to the movies to escape today, not to look for anything real.

I think people look to TV for real emotions/situations. It's easier for writers/actors to develop stories and characters and for audiences to connect emotionally. With the ticket prices and the declining movie theater experience and the big movie budget it makes sense why the mid-tier movie is being pushed out when the mid-tier movies that do get produced are generally mediocre (of course there are exceptions). But even the successful mid-tier movies tend to have a gimmick or genre edge. 

Quote

I had to look up what exactly Joan McCracken's "illness" was, only to find out that it was Type 1 diabetes.

I guessed from the urine sugar test. I don't know how it was treated at the time or how debilitating it would have been but yeah, they treated it like it was the 1970's version of consumption. I wasn't 100% until I looked up the Slate fact check.

Quote

Rema Webb (Broadway: Lion King, Book of Mormon, Violet, The Color Purple, Escape to Margaritaville)

That was Rema? I was not paying enough attention through the costumes and makeup. Rewatching it, I still don't recognize her. 

[aradia22]

Quote

And his face when Gwen walked into the booth was Everything.  She felt it, too -- how gratifying it is to be that adored by someone you adore.  

At least at this point in the show I feel like that's where the attraction is, aside from the physical attraction which I do think the actors convey well. The show seems to be suggesting that Fosse grew more and more dependent on Verdon's advice, critique/opinions, assistance, reassurance, etc. and that for a time she enjoyed the collaboration and being needed in that way. What seems to tip the scales is the repeated infidelities. She isn't irritated by his irresponsibility, poor parenting, etc. until after she decides to break up. Or not that I've seen yet up to episode 3.

Quote

He took a huge risk with Cabaret, changing it drastically from the stage version. It would be very interesting to explore why he made those changes, and how his collaborators felt about it. 

I am curious how many more notable creatives we will be seeing during the show. Where's Kander and Ebb?

[aradia22]

EPISODE 4: This was a rough one for me. I didn't know until the end of the episode that the writer and director were different. I think even Kail and Levenson would have struggled to make this interesting though. Of course, they might have chosen to not focus on this at all.

First of all, I have little to no interest in Pippin so that made the musical numbers more dull to me this episode. But the whole thing was dull. It gave me a Californication vibe. Like, a male antihero but not one who is a competent genius doing stuff but just like... a dude. I was so bored by the drugs and women this episode. Which I think was the point but it was a point that did not need to be made for the good part of an hour. 

I did think it was important to show Fosse being more openly coercive and aggressive. Yes, 100% he was terrible before and even with everything being consensual, he's still taking advantage of his position. But I think it was important to see how he didn't take no for an answer and that actress just happened to get away from him and how he was then retaliatory at work. I feel like it was a clear display of how this kind of sexual harassment does affect a workplace. The dancer performed worse because she was uncomfortable. He took advantage of his position as her boss to criticize and berate her. He made decisions on promotions/solos because she wouldn't have sex with him. Then she felt compelled to have sex with him to get back in his good graces. Of course the work suffers when you make decisions like this instead of based on merit. 

I'm not sure about the Ann Reinking character yet. I'm not seeing the physical similarity. I don't know the actress. Maybe she's a good dancer? It's interesting that so far they've set her apart as the one actress who won't sleep with Fosse. Who knows if that was true? 

This may be wrong but according to an article I found, Joan passed away at 41. Aya Cash looks way too young for this part. 

I finally heard some rasp in Michelle Williams' voice as Verdon this episode so that was nice. 

One small point. I get what they're trying to do in showing how much Verdon supports him and he doesn't support her but it felt unfair for her to blame him for her play. Him checking in during the last 1-2 weeks was not going to save a play that was so bad it closed in one night. 

I was going to go into this whole thing about Dear Evan Hansen and glamorizing suicide and the sentimentality of using Nicole and WTH were they even trying to accomplish at the end? But it turns out the episode was written by someone else. 

[aradia22]

EPISODE 5: Woof. This was even worse than the last one. What happened after the first three episodes? Kail was back for this one but I didn't think the direction was all that great. There were even little things like instead of the shot being lined up or panning naturally, I noticed how it was sort of framed and then the camera would awkwardly pan a little to include both characters who were talking fully in the shot. Weird.

The writing was also bad. None of the dialogue really sparkled. And besides that, most of it was just talking about things that had happened. There was none of the subtlety of previous episodes. Everyone was just talking out their feelings in that bad soapy way that doesn't trust the audience.

This episode really put Reinking in a positive light. I wonder if that came from the book/source material or Nicole or maybe the relationships the creatives might have with her or a combination. Who knows if the real Bob Fosse did keep calling her on the phone but in this episode their relationship comes across as so chaste. He doesn't kiss her and he barely touched her in contrast to how they've depicted him with Verdon. As much as they showed Gwen mothering him, in this episode Reinking really comes across as the one who is the caretaker. 

I didn't really get the sudden focus on Nicole. She's been around these adult parties for ages. Why is she just now drinking and smoking? I don't need an after school special in the middle of this. Was it just there to highlight how Joan had asked Gwen to look out for Nicole and instead she did the opposite and pursued Chicago and her own ambition (I don't believe the bit about setting up Nicole for life. There's no guarantee any show will be a success.) Whatever it was, it took too long. God, this was such a boring episode. 

This episode also really complicates Verdon as a character. She lies about Bob wanting to move forward with Chicago. Unlike Reinking who just wants him to rest, she pushes him to do Chicago. She seduces Bob to get him to do Chicago, cheating on Ron and preying on all of Bob's weaknesses that she knows all too well. And then she weirdly tells Ann to stick it out for the way Bob's creative genius will help her career. What? It's like they dropped in a character from Game of Thrones. Somehow with all the blathering I never heard anything that would make this character shift make sense. 

Michelle Williams singing "Where Am I Going" was a mess. Please let her never release a "jazz" album of standards. 

The one thing that was solid was that the episode established that Fosse could never be satisfied with his work. This character is constantly changing the parameters of what he needs to do to prove himself. It's not the outside world telling him he's not enough. He just won so many awards. But he feels inadequate inside and so he changes the parameters of what will be necessary to finally prove he's a great artist to be taken seriously.

[aradia22]

https://slate.com/culture/2019/05/fosse-verdon-fact-fiction-episode-5-historical-accuracy-fx-series.html

EPISODE 6: Ah! Brandon Uranowitz!

That's who they got for Kander and Ebb?

The fantasy sequence of Fosse as a stand up made him more arrogant and self-important than ever. He's the victim. Ugh, it was the worst kind of stand up.

Did Michelle Williams make the choice to really exaggerate the Verdon rasp as the character aged or did they film out of order and decide as they went along to either lose or amp up the voice?

It's interesting that Ron is sticking around but Slate wasn't able to verify if he was based on a real person.

[aradia22]

EPISODE 6: The Chita was nothing like Chita Rivera who even now is incredibly dynamic and captivating. What was that voice?

So we're continuing with Gwen being a bit of a dark character. She kept Ann (who is being depicted as this angel who only has Bob's health and best interests at heart) away from Fosse so she wouldn't try to dissuade him from doing Chicago. Then in lighter plotlines, she was shrewd with the doctor who was a theater fan and in dressing/making up Nicole to look older to get into the hospital. 

I will say Michelle Williams is better at aging into the character than Rockwell. There's depth to the way the character seems to be developing and changing over time. I think that's why the makeup fall a little flat on Rockwell. He's not playing it differently so he just feels like a young-ish guy wearing a bald cap.

I thought this too when Ann and Gwen were talking in the other episode at the rented cottage... Ann feels like a millennial awkwardly dropped into the story. I'm not sure if it's the actress' delivery or her look or the writing but she stands out. 

I appreciate them treating Fosse's sexual abuse/mollestation as what it was regardless of how it would have been seen at the time. However, this episode was only a slight improvement from 4 and 5. It was trying way too hard to be edgy with the stand up and with him coercing Ann into sex in the hospital bed. I did not need it. I did not need any of it. 

I'm optimistic for the next episode because I love Chicago. Hopefully it'll pick up again.

[aradia22]

EPISODE 7: I don't know if it was because Levenson was back for this one but I enjoyed it a lot more than the last few episodes. It still had problems though.

I do think it got a big boost from the focus on Chicago. I LOVE Chicago. Hearing all the songs made me so happy. 

Weirdly I found Fosse most sinister at the beginning of the episode. It was something about the way his voice was so gentle and he was promising Gwen love and marriage and a baby and a family. In light all we've seen, it felt monstrous. Though who knows if at the time he was serious about wanting to try and build a life and stop philandering. But it was hard to buy into after all the episodes that came before this one. 

I still think the Chita was miscast but whatever. 

Ah! Tyler Hanes! He's so handsome. Even made up to look like Roger Bart he's still so attractive.

Norbert is so good in this part. I cackled when he threw the cigarette.

I wonder if the staging of the Roxie numbers in Chicago was really affected by how much Gwen Verdon was capable of. I think the seated ventriloquist dummy really works. 

It was interesting to put the focus on Bob's search for drugs instead of sex this episode. It was repetitive but it emphasized his addiction in a different way. He might seem relaxed but he was still tenacious.

I did think Michelle Williams sounded better than ever singing with a quasi-Gwen Verdon voice this episode.

This episode continued the Gwen is also bad thing. Though I'm not sure if the show sees in that way. Gwen is not following Joan's advice at all. She kept distracting Bob throughout Nicole's recital to focus on what she wanted.  She was also pretty terrible when Fosse suggested making the finale a duet. And he was right. Chicago is not about Roxie. It's about Roxie and Velma. She was nasty in going after him just because he suggested they try it as a duet. She stabbed at all his weak points. 

Danny Burstein! I didn't expect the infertility/adoption plotline. I'm not sure it was necessary but it does confirm that Fosse/Verdon is as much about a marriage as it is about these two specific creative people. 

I thought Bob was actually pretty nice about Liza coming in as a replacement. I don't know if the show wants us to side with Gwen thinking that he was nefarious and just wanted to replace the older actress who was a laughable ingenue. I feel like Gwen would have been more sympathetic if we had any understanding of her POV. Like, we skipped ahead so we didn't see any of her desperation during those 4 months he was recovering from surgery when she was lending money to the cast and figuring out how to keep everything together. We haven't got a lot of her anxiety about aging out of being a star or whatever else. So it comes across like she's just being petulant and nasty because she wants another big musical comedy where she's the star. This was different from the Gwen in earlier episodes who seemed to have an understanding of the material and know the best way to present a story. That Gwen was willing to go against conventional wisdom and make bold choices. 

[aradia22]

EPISODE 8: Norbert is so good in this part. I felt like there were a lot of good things in this episode and it felt like a return to what I'd enjoyed in the first few episodes. However, it was all over the place. For any episode of TV but particularly for a finale, I didn't feel like it was trying to say anything. All this time jumping should have been in service of paring down the biographical details to focus on a specific thesis or theme. 

The timeline was confusing at the beginning. Ann had found a new boyfriend. I feel like her character was pretty much wasted in this show. It was a relatively positive portrayal but she was flattened into a supportive girlfriend. And there was no real explanation of why this beautiful, talented young girl would want to put up with all this BS and basically act as a live-in nurse for years.

I feel like if they were going to put focus on Nicole, they should have done it. It didn't go anywhere. From the beginning we saw her as a child in the background of parties. And then suddenly she started experimenting with the substances (alcohol, cigarettes, etc.) around her. And then all of a sudden she had a substance abuse problem. Sure, I can connect the dots but the show was very unclear about why she was resentful towards Gwen and how she turned to her father but when he was a letdown, she went back to Gwen. It was so vague for something we spent so much time on. I get that directors like to slow things down and have languidly paced quiet scenes but that only works if you still communicate all the necessary information to the audience. 

Ann auditioning for All That Jazz was dramatic but then it didn't go anywhere and we just learned about the Oscar nominations. I did find it funny that Lin played the thinly veiled Bob Fosse stand-in for All That Jazz. 

Jake Lacy is very attractive but what in the hell was the point of Ron as a character? He was a perfect boyfriend for Gwen until he got fed up with it all. He wasn't developed enough as a real person for me to care about when he left. Was he an amalgamation of her real life boyfriends or did they just need a character to move the plot along and be a sounding board? Because it felt like the latter. 

Paddy dying was sad but the show didn't seem to know what to do with it. It didn't have an effect on Bob. 

The actress playing Charity in the revival was great. Who was that?

Michelle Williams is a little dead eyed when she's singing. Since her taking over as Charity was a pivotal moment, I think it was smart that they pulled the camera so far back and shot her from different angles (e.g. in profile) to hide that no, she doesn't actually have that much charisma and sparkle when she performs. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, aradia22 said:

Was he an amalgamation of her real life boyfriends or did they just need a character to move the plot along and be a sounding board? Because it felt like the latter. 

I believe yes, he was an amalgam of several boyfriends.

[aradia22]

RE: The success of the original Broadway staging of Chicago

As discussed, I'm not a great arbiter of anything from the 70's. It's a sensibility I really don't get. Personally, based on the clips that still exist of performances from that original production... it seems weird. I greatly prefer the gloss of the movie or the almost barebones abstraction of the current revival. The costumes and styling in the original strike me as so odd. Certainly the cast was full of talented performers but that version of Chicago doesn't look like it was set in the 1920's. And I just usually find the 70's aesthetic rather ugly. 

Of course who knows how audiences felt at the time. I mean, they were living with that 70's look. 

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And the ensemble in the episode looked racially diverse when in reality there was one African-American woman (Candy Brown, who was also given the fabulous line “And then he just ran into my knife. He ran into my knife TEN TIMES.”), one woman from Argentina (Graciela Daniele) and that was pretty much it. 

OK, thank you. I have been wondering about that. Yes, it's New York and they're artistic types. But there have been a lot of times over the series where I wondered if those spaces were as integrated as the show made them appear. 

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  ON 5/23/2019 AT 5:24 PM, ALEXVILLAGE SAID:

It is pretty ridiculous how expensive tickets are these days. The price you paid for your Chicago ticked would probably get you some bottled water today.

Drinks are pretty ridiculous these days too. These were the drink prices when I saw the national tour of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory a few weeks ago. And that’s on top of the ridiculous ticket prices! 

Every time someone brings up old ticket prices, I die a little inside. Also, I Scotland, PA a few weeks ago (off-Broadway) and paid $7 for fries that tasted like plastic. I was hungry and by the time I got to the front of the line, I didn't want to look cheap and leave even though I thought the sign said $3 or maybe $5 (it was partially covered). 

[aradia22]

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It's true that we've skipped over a decade in the couple's life, everything between Damn Yankees and Sweet Charity (except for flashbacks for the baby stuff), and with only the finale to go, it's safe to predict we won't see any more of it. Which, though understandable for the arc they're building, is too bad, because there was some substantial work in there:

I feel like we could have skipped a lot of Bob Fosse is addicted to drugs and sex montages and marital problems to put more focus on their theatrical careers. I still think the series took a dip in the middle and while the last two episodes were an improvement, they still didn't end the series on a satisfying conclusion. 

Had he finally proven his old dance teacher wrong and shown that he was irreplaceable? Was it like Paddy was saying where he realized it was Gwen all along but it was too late to say anything? By agreeing to direct a revival of his own work, had he given in and admitted he had nothing left to say as an artist? The last two episodes were "stuff that happened" vs. a presentation of select events to make a particular point. And I'm just saying that they might as well have covered lesser known musicals in that time rather than the repetitive material they did focus on.

Of course there are always practical considerations we might not be privy to. What was the budget for the show? Did some of the creatives have scheduling conflicts that pulled their focus? Sometimes effectively and sometimes not they were using A LOT of the same footage in flashbacks.

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In one scene in “Fosse/Verdon,” Bob tests his fears by having Ann mount him on his hospital bed. Reinking hadn’t seen the episode, but said, “I heard that I’m in the hospital with Bob and we’re having intimate relations?” She let out a hoarse laugh. “That didn’t happen. At all. First of all, there’d be a nurse in the room in two seconds flat the moment his heart rate went up. He was under severe observation. He almost died. It was the last thing on his mind, or mine. He was just trying to get well.” I read aloud from page 402 of Wasson’s biography: “Having sex with Reinking, he wept with relief that impotence hadn’t set in. She had never seen him cry before.” “But that was later on,” she clarified. “It wasn’t in the hospital.” Besides, when he had the heart attack she was in a back brace, having fractured her vertebrae during a “gravity-defying” jitterbug in the Broadway show “Over Here!”

Whew.

RE: Another season. If it was just going to be about songwriting/artistry and not drama, I would want Rodgers and Hammerstein or Lerner and Loewe. For mild drama, they could do Frank Loesser given the circumstances of his second marriage. For more drama, they could do Leonard Bernstein though I highly doubt his family would allow them to really delve into any suggestion of bisexuality or infidelity. Whatever happened to those two warring Bradley Cooper and Jake Gyllenhaal biopics? For my personal enjoyment, I would like an Andrew Lloyd Webber series about how he steals all his best musical phrases from other composers.

[aradia22]

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As a fellow actor, I thought Ron would understand that drive, so it seemed strange that agreeing to do a tour of Chicago was what annoyed Ron and made him think that Gwen couldn't say no to Bob. Of all the things that happened between the time that Gwen started dating him and the Chicago tour (which was years), THAT was what made Ron realize that Gwen was always running off whenever Bob asked for her help?

I mean, I maintain that "Ron" was a plot device used by the writers as they saw fit and not a real character at all. But I think we were supposed to understand that Chicago had been the worst experience ever for Gwen (even though in Fosse/Verdon's retelling, I think she came across as worse than Fosse, being incredibly insecure and defensive and emotional and unprofessional with little cause). And so it was an issue for Ron because she wanted to go back and do a tour of a show that had been one of the worst, most stressful periods of her professional career. 

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Poor Nicole. It's one thing to see your dad take what you thought was a nice moment and put it on display, but it's another thing entirely to realize that your dad manufactured that moment just so he could use it to portray himself a certain way.

I didn't read it as harshly. I thought it was a genuinely nice moment. But then Bob changed his mind about casting Nicole or had just floated that idea on a whim but wasn't really entertaining it and she'd taken him seriously. I feel like the show has portrayed him as a neglectful parent but he's never been that cruel or manipulative with Nicole. 

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They didn't show Gwen with her cats, my understanding is she was a cat fancier.

The worst part of this show is that when I went to her wikipedia page, I realized we could have gotten so many cats and the cat count for the whole show was... zero. Zero kitties!

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I wondered at the end if Nicole was harboring a bit of unresolved "something" towards her mother. 

Oh, definitely. I feel like there was enough onscreen to hint at it but it was never made explicit for some reason. Nicole in the show was definitely resentful of her mother for more than being the strict parent. The later curfew was not the only reason she went to stay with her dad. There were little things in each episode... her reaction to being dressed up to go visit Bob in the hospital, her anger over her mom not wanting to watch the Partridge Family, the way she complains to her mom about being the only kid at the summer cottage party, the inclusion of Gwen telling Ron to not make those NYCB comments, etc. Maybe Nicole let little things slip unconsciously that were then put into the show. But my sense is that she was probably more vocal about her feelings about her mom and that was soft-pedaled because Nicole is a secondary character and they wanted a more charitable depiction of Gwen Verdon but they didn't cut the material completely so we ended up in this weird gray area where you can see tension in their relationship but it's never fully explored in the show. That doesn't mean she's still angry about it now like Joan Crawford's daughter with Mommie Dearest. But in recounting the truth of that period of her childhood, I did sense some negative feelings at the time. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Golden Globe nominations!

Best Television Limited Series or Motion Picture Made for Television
Michelle Williams: Best Performance by an Actress in a Limited Series or Motion Picture Made for Television
Sam Rockwell: Best Performance by an Actor in a Limited Series or Motion Picture Made for Television

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Critics' Choice Award nominations!

Best Limited Series

Best Actor in a Limited Series or Movie Made for Television – Sam Rockwell

Best Actress in a Limited Series or Movie Made for Television – Michelle Williams

Best Supporting Actress in a Limited Series or Movie Made for Television – Margaret Qualley

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Screen Actors Guild Award nomination:

Outstanding Performance by a Male Actor in a Television Movie or Miniseries - Sam Rockwell

Outstanding Performance by a Female Actor in a Television Movie or Miniseries - Michelle Williams