Law & Order Discussion Topic (2019 - 2021)

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Watching season 12 today - good episodes, but Nora is so soft and has such a dull personality that she drags down the show. She just wasn’t a very good fit for the DA role. In The Fire This Time, she was so soft when talking about the perps who burned down the building and burned a woman to death, and then in Prejudice, she seemed to think that the defense of racism as a mental disorder had some merit. She just didn’t have enough backbone to be a DA. I know some L&O fans can’t stand Arthur but I thought Arthur brought authority, charisma and personality back to the DA role after 2 years of Nora.

McCoy was awesome in Prejudice, fiery and passionate, he despised racism/hate crimes and it showed. I liked how Jack referenced the season 5 episode Rage which was the case where a black defendant used the “black rage” defense for murder, good continuity. And an interesting note - Prejudice is the first episode that mentions the events of 9/11, it’s mentioned a couple of times in the episode.

I agree. At least Arthur knew what his job was Nora always seemed shocked that they were going to proscute those who committed crimes. 

[Xeliou66]

26 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I agree. At least Arthur knew what his job was Nora always seemed shocked that they were going to proscute those who committed crimes. 

Yes - Nora lacked authority and usually just sat on the sidelines making observations, frequently sympathizing with the defendants. She was just not fit for the DA role. Arthur on the other hand brought authority back to the role and had charisma as well, I’m one of the L&O fans that likes Arthur, while I disagree with the majority of his political views, I like him because of his colorful personality and the fact that he was willing to exercise his power as DA. 

[andromeda331]

Just now, Xeliou66 said:

Yes - Nora lacked authority and usually just sat on the sidelines making observations, frequently sympathizing with the defendants. She was just not fit for the DA role. Arthur on the other hand brought authority back to the role and had charisma as well, I’m one of the L&O fans that likes Arthur, while I disagree with the majority of his political views, I like him because of his colorful personality and the fact that he was willing to exercise his power as DA. 

No one will ever be able to top Adam but I'll take Arthur any day over Nora. I don't like his politics either I'll take it over Nora sympathetic to defendants and shocked that McCoys going to charge them for the crime they committed.  The only episode I liked her in was when she sought the death penalty for the murder of the Chinese delivery man. Even though she tried to find another way reading all the law books in the end she did her job. If they kept her like that it would have been better but they didn't. Instead it was "your going to charge him"? Why yes Nora that's the your job. When people commit crimes they need to be held accountable. I'm not surprise she ended up losing against Arthur. Anyone else would be better then her.

[Xeliou66]

59 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

No one will ever be able to top Adam but I'll take Arthur any day over Nora. I don't like his politics either I'll take it over Nora sympathetic to defendants and shocked that McCoys going to charge them for the crime they committed.  The only episode I liked her in was when she sought the death penalty for the murder of the Chinese delivery man. Even though she tried to find another way reading all the law books in the end she did her job. If they kept her like that it would have been better but they didn't. Instead it was "your going to charge him"? Why yes Nora that's the your job. When people commit crimes they need to be held accountable. I'm not surprise she ended up losing against Arthur. Anyone else would be better then her.

I wonder if Nora even ran for election, she was appointed to the position and she didn’t seem like a political type, somehow I doubt she even ran for another term as DA.

I agree that Schiff was impossible to replace he was such a fantastic character, but yes Arthur was much better than Nora, Arthur acted like a DA and also had a personality, Nora was dull as dirt. I agree Nora was interesting in Teenage Wasteland when she had to decide about seeking the death penalty, and I thought she was pretty good in Bronx Cheer as well. But for the most part she just sat on the sidelines. 

[wknt3]

19 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

 I'm not surprise she ended up losing against Arthur. Anyone else would be better then her.

One minor quibble. There was never any indication she ran for a full term. Given everything we know and were told I honestly can't actually picture her running for office. Arthur won the election, but I don't remember any indication of whom his opponent was. His arrival is just as unexplained and off screen as his departure so at least there is a sort of symmetry.

[Xeliou66]

5 hours ago, wknt3 said:

One minor quibble. There was never any indication she ran for a full term. Given everything we know and were told I honestly can't actually picture her running for office. Arthur won the election, but I don't remember any indication of whom his opponent was. His arrival is just as unexplained and off screen as his departure so at least there is a sort of symmetry.

Yeah like I said I don’t think Nora ever ran for office - she was appointed to the position and I doubt she ran for another term. I just don’t see her as someone who would run for office.

Arthur’s first episode was on tonight and yeah it wasn’t explained who he ran against, just that he was the new DA. And him and Serena didn’t like each other right off the bat, she seemed to have an issue with his politics and they just didn’t care for each other, it was noticeable because the main characters on L&O usually got along very well. 

[balmz]

from a wikipedia entry

 

 in his tie-in book Law & Order: Crime Scenes, Dick Wolf wrote that his intention for the character was that Lewin found herself disenchanted with the position of D.A., and opted not to run for election following her interim term. 

 

makes sense for her character

 

also meant to say this  as a joke when it was announced earlier, never got around  to it

 

plot twist nora and serena will return as the starring roles for law and order for the defense

[wknt3]

20 hours ago, balmz said:

plot twist nora and serena will return as the starring roles for law and order for the defense

I think it would be more likely to have Nora do a guest spot. I can picture it now -

Serena: Thanks for doing this pro bono Nora. We really need someone with your stature to negotiate this plea bargain given that it's such a high profile case and her co-defendant is looking to pin all the blame on her. Let's get over to Hogan Place right away.
Nora: Hold on just a second. It's true that our primary ethical obligation is zealous advocacy for our client, but what about our secondary obligations as officers of the court? And as citizens of the State and County of New York? It's true that her co-defendant had more power and should bear more responsibility, but is it really fair for him to receive 90% of the sentence when he only was morally responsible for 65% of the crime? Is there a restorative justice option we could pursue? Criminal cases don't have to be  a zero sum game. And what do the Canons of Ethics and case law say on the topic?
Serena: We really should take the offer on the table. I had to call in a lot of favors to even get this meeting.
Nora: We can't act until we've thoroughly considered all of our options. It's our ethical duty.

TITLE CARD: Offices of Dewey, Cheatham, Howe, Sutherland, and Associates. Tuesday September 21

Serena: I've compiled all of the relevant case law as well as law review articles and opinions of the Bar Association Ethics Committee. As you can see it's near unanimous that we should make the deal.
Nora: Hmmmm. Well this does appear to be dispositive although Mendoza seems to disregard the conflict between the ethical obligations of counsel in different aspects of the role. I guess we should go ahead.

Enter DANIELLE MELNICK

Melnick: Hello ladies. Just wanted to let you know that we cut a deal. My client will be testifying against yours and cooperating in the recovery of assets in exchange for 1 year of minimum security followed by probation. They'll be going after your client for 25 to life. Have a nice day.
 

Edited June 27, 2021 by wknt3
ducking autocorrect

[shapeshifter]

I just turned on Bounce in time to see the courtroom portion of 5.11 “Guardian” from 1995 with a 25-year-old Dallas Roberts, and a middle aged Sam Waterston.

The next episode just began (“Progeny”) with a still vigorous Jerry Orbach and a still youthful Chris Noth.

Good times. 

[coffee drinker]

Can anyone tell me how the 2nd episode of the two part Baby It's You case turned out?  Season 8, episode 6 on L&O.  It aired on the sister show Homicide: Life on the Streets.  Did it end up being the Dad who'd raped his daughter?  Or did that turn out to be a mis-direct and it was the young man infatuated with her?  

Edited June 28, 2021 by coffee drinker

[shapeshifter]

24 minutes ago, coffee drinker said:

Can anyone tell me how the 2nd episode of the two part Baby It's You case turned out?  Season 8, episode 6 on L&O.  It aired on the sister show Homicide: Life on the Streets.  Did it end up being the Dad who'd raped his daughter?  Or did that turn out to be a mis-direct and it was the young man infatuated with her?  

Because I couldn't recall, from davidbmorristvbonaza.blogspot.com/2018/03/homicide-episode-guide-baby-its-you.html 

Quote

...The major twist comes when the defendant reveals that he had an alibi for the time of the murder--- he was having an encounter with a woman he was having an affair with for the past ten years.  Unfortunately, the action from this episode starts falling afterwards. Through interrogations it is reveal that Mrs. Janaway sexually abused her daughter regularly and was responsible for the assault that killed her. Problem is, we haven’t had so much as an inkling of this so far and we don’t get any real explanation as to why she did it. This is like a lot of Homicide but in this case the build-up has been so great it’s a disappointment to just get this....

 

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, coffee drinker said:

Can anyone tell me how the 2nd episode of the two part Baby It's You case turned out?  Season 8, episode 6 on L&O.  It aired on the sister show Homicide: Life on the Streets.  Did it end up being the Dad who'd raped his daughter?  Or did that turn out to be a mis-direct and it was the young man infatuated with her?  

It turned out the mom was the perp - she had raped her daughter with a foreign object, because she was a sicko and was insanely jealous of her daughter I believe. The dad knew nothing about it. It’s been a while since I’ve seen Part 2 of that episode and yeah the revelation of the mom being the perp sort of came out of nowhere, they figured out it was her when the dad had an alibi and then they brought her in and she confessed, to Munch I believe.
Very dark episode but it did have some good humor in it and I liked seeing the characters from the 2 shows interact, Munch/Briscoe together was always enjoyable and McCoy and Danvers working together was interesting as well. 

[coffee drinker]

Thank you everyone for the update!  So Dr. Skoda was right, he just had the wrong parent pegged for it.  

[Xeliou66]

20 minutes ago, coffee drinker said:

Thank you everyone for the update!  So Dr. Skoda was right, he just had the wrong parent pegged for it.  

Yes - I liked that scene between Skoda and Jack that was the final scene of Part 1, with them reflecting on the disturbing nature of the crime and Skoda saying McCoy was about to look into an ugly corner of the human heart. I love Skoda, he added to every scene he was in. 

[shapeshifter]

14.10 "Ill-Conceived" (2003) just re-aired on the Court TV Mystery channel (formerly Escape).

Reveal near the end of the episode: 

An undocumented woman agreed to accept $3K/mo. for 9 months of surrogate pregnancy. The surrogate was to be implanted with an embryo created from the sperm of her boss and the egg of the boss’s wife who had already had 3 miscarriages. But after the birth, the surrogate didn’t want to give up the baby. The baby’s biological father threatened to report the the surrogate and her husband to the INS (nowadays called ICE) if they didn’t give up the baby to its biological parents, after which the surrogate’s husband kills the baby’s biological father. 

The baby’s biological mother purgers herself on the stand in order to get the surrogate to give her the baby, but when the truth is discovered, the surrogate reportedly flees with the baby to Mexico. 

Shouldn’t we at least know whether or not the baby’s biological mother is going to hire someone to find and retrieve the baby? 

And how will a white, blue-eyed baby do in what was repeatedly described as an especially impoverished town in Mexico?

Probably she sells the baby? If so, in Mexico? Or…?

Dammit, I want a follow-up episode.  
But I guess the baby’s biological mom wanted follow-up too. 
So kudos to the writers for leaving the viewers with a sense of the bio-mom’s feelings.

[Xeliou66]

Regarding Ill-Conceived - I don’t think the victim’s wife/bio mom had any rights to the kid, the surrogate can decide she wants to keep the baby. The surrogate fled because she would be facing criminal charges as an accessory to the murder. I don’t know what would happen to the surrogate living in a poor town in Mexico, I doubt her life would be very happy so who knows what she would do to get by or if she would keep the kid.

It’s a very good episode, one that isn’t talked about much, I liked seeing Jack battle the defense attorney Vanessa Galiano, apparently they were lovers at one point, though that was unconfirmed. Galiano was quite abrasive and very zealous in her representation of the defendant, it was an entertaining legal battle. I didn’t feel any sympathy for Miguel or Maria, they were just trying to extort the victim. Good investigation as well, I liked the clue about the flour found on the victim which obviously came from the killer because there was nothing with flour in his stomach.

[txhorns79]

On 7/2/2021 at 2:44 PM, shapeshifter said:

 

The baby’s biological mother purgers herself on the stand in order to get the surrogate to give her the baby, but when the truth is discovered, the surrogate reportedly flees with the baby to Mexico. 

That reminds me a little bit of the episode where the gay couple adopted a baby, and the bio parents found out and tried to take the kid back, but ended up killing a member of the couple.  If I remember right, I think the mother or father was trying to flee with the kid when caught.  Though that episode I think was about whether the murder was a hate crime. 

[Xeliou66]

13 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

That reminds me a little bit of the episode where the gay couple adopted a baby, and the bio parents found out and tried to take the kid back, but ended up killing a member of the couple.  If I remember right, I think the mother or father was trying to flee with the kid when caught.  Though that episode I think was about whether the murder was a hate crime. 

That was Phobia from season 11 - good episode as well. In that one, the bio mom wanted the kid back, the bio dad didn’t care until he found out the adoptive parents were gay, then he went and confronted and wound up killing one of the adoptive parents and taking the baby. The bio dad had the baby at his house upstate, I don’t think he even wanted the kid as he didn’t seem to know what to do as a parent, he seemed almost relieved when Briscoe and Green showed up to arrest him. He just did the murder cause he was a bigoted piece of shit. The bio mom should’ve faced a harsher punishment - apparently she got off with probation after turning against the bio dad, but it was her actions that set the whole thing in motion.

[Scarlett45]

On 7/2/2021 at 1:44 PM, shapeshifter said:

And how will a white, blue-eyed baby do in what was repeatedly described as an especially impoverished town in Mexico?

Probably she sells the baby? If so, in Mexico? Or…?

Dammit, I want a follow-up episode.  
But I guess the baby’s biological mom wanted follow-up too. 
So kudos to the writers for leaving the viewers with a sense of the bio-mom’s feelings.

I didn’t get the impression the surrogate would sell the baby. She loved and was emotionally attached to the baby. She wanted to raise it. That’s why she wouldn’t give it up. Didn’t her husband say “after nine months…..”(implying that after gestation and labor she felt the child was her own)

Likely in her home town people would just think she had sex with a white man while she was in the USA for a spell. 

On 7/2/2021 at 5:13 PM, Xeliou66 said:

Regarding Ill-Conceived - I don’t think the victim’s wife/bio mom had any rights to the kid, the surrogate can decide she wants to keep the baby.

Surrogacy laws have changed so much since that episode originally aired. Now the “intended parents” would have legal rights to the baby after it was born, but at that time, laws hadn’t caught up with technology yet and the person that delivered the baby was always assumed to be the legal and biological mother. 
 

 

[Scarlett45]

6 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

That was Phobia from season 11 - good episode as well. In that one, the bio mom wanted the kid back, the bio dad didn’t care until he found out the adoptive parents were gay, then he went and confronted and wound up killing one of the adoptive parents and taking the baby. The bio dad had the baby at his house upstate, I don’t think he even wanted the kid as he didn’t seem to know what to do as a parent, he seemed almost relieved when Briscoe and Green showed up to arrest him. He just did the murder cause he was a bigoted piece of shit. The bio mom should’ve faced a harsher punishment - apparently she got off with probation after turning against the bio dad, but it was her actions that set the whole thing in motion.

The bio Dad was a bigot. I don’t know if bio Mom really wanted her baby back or just regretted the adoption. I can’t recall if bio mom knew bio dad was murderous though. 

[shapeshifter]

11 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I didn’t get the impression the surrogate would sell the baby. She loved and was emotionally attached to the baby. She wanted to raise it. That’s why she wouldn’t give it up. Didn’t her husband say “after nine months…..”(implying that after gestation and labor she felt the child was her own)

When I saw the episode for my first time a couple of years ago, I too took the husband’s words at face value about her growing to love the baby after carrying it for 9 months. 
But this time I realized he changed his story at least 4 times, so I doubt that was true either. 🤷🏻‍♀️ 
 

11 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Surrogacy laws have changed so much since that episode originally aired. Now the “intended parents” would have legal rights to the baby after it was born, but at that time, laws hadn’t caught up with technology yet and the person that delivered the baby was always assumed to be the legal and biological mother

That didn’t occur to me! Thanks, @Scarlett45!

Edited July 4, 2021 by shapeshifter

[Xeliou66]

52 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

The bio Dad was a bigot. I don’t know if bio Mom really wanted her baby back or just regretted the adoption. I can’t recall if bio mom knew bio dad was murderous though. 

In Phobia, the mom did want her baby back as she was on drugs when she gave birth and then when she got cleaned up she wanted the baby back. She knew the bio dad was a bigot and would care that the baby was being raised by a gay couple, but I don’t know if she knew he had it in him to kill the guy.

As for Ill-Conceived, I think the surrogate did grow attached to the baby, but I don’t think the husband/killer cared, he was just trying to extort the victim for more money and that’s what led to the murder. I felt zero sympathy for him, and I didn’t feel much sympathy for the surrogate mom either. 

[shapeshifter]

21 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

As for Ill-Conceived, I think the surrogate did grow attached to the baby, but I don’t think the husband/killer cared, he was just trying to extort the victim for more money and that’s what led to the murder. I felt zero sympathy for him, and I didn’t feel much sympathy for the surrogate mom either. 

If the surrogate's own egg had been fertilized by the biological father of the baby, I could imagine the surrogate wanting to have a baby with a responsible, successful man who might sponsor her to stay in the country (no matter how unlikely that fantasy might be). But it wasn't even her egg. Also, the surrogate was apparently willing to give the baby to the biological mother in exchange for the bio-mom perjuring herself to get the surrogate's husband out of the murder charge. So, I think the surrogate valued the baby more as something she could monetize rather than as someone to love.

There was no indication that she couldn't have other children, was there? 
Of course, if her husband was in jail, her prospects for having another baby would be curtailed. 
Maybe that would motivate her to want to keep the baby.

[shapeshifter]

More legal background for “Ill-Conceived” pointing towards the surrogate’s motives:

At the time of the episode it was illegal for a surrogate to be paid*   
 —which is why there is a line about the $3K/mo. for 9 months being for her health, not a price for the service.  
Based on the current going rate,   
and adjusting for inflation, ($27K in 2003 would be about $39K now) the agreed amount was a little low, but they were going to get help with citizenship too, so fair?

But after the healthy baby was born, the husband of the surrogate went to the bio father claiming they wanted to keep it because of emotional attachment, which, as @Scarlett45 mentioned above, was their legal right at the time.

But I think we can assume he was really just expecting a bigger payout to deliver the healthy baby. No doubt the surrogate’s husband was shocked that instead of being offered more money, they were threatened with deportation —thus triggering outrage and murder.

I would have liked someone to have uttered a line about the surrogate's likely motives after she fled, but I guess it was more the L&O style to leave us hanging.

_______________
* From fertilitysourcecompanies.com/location/new-york-surrogacy 

Quote

Up until recently, surrogacy in New York was limited to arrangements that were altruistic and uncompensated (often referred to as compassionate surrogacy), making it illegal for New York gestational carriers to be paid for their time and effort. However, New York recently passed new regulations that not only make paid gestational surrogacy legal but also provide some of the most stringent protections for surrogates in the nation.

Starting in February of 2021, New Yorkers will be able to arrange and implement paid surrogacy contracts. The law includes a bill of rights for surrogates, which stipulates that the minimum compensation for surrogates is $35,000 and that health and life insurance must be provided by the intended parents for a year after the surrogate has given birth. The law also establishes criteria for creating surrogacy contracts that protect all parties in the process.

Edited July 4, 2021 by shapeshifter

[Scarlett45]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But it wasn't even her egg. Also, the surrogate was apparently willing to give the baby to the biological mother in exchange for the bio-mom perjuring herself to get the surrogate's husband out of the murder charge. So, I think the surrogate valued the baby more as something she could monetize rather than as someone to love.

There was no indication that she couldn't have other children, was there? 
Of course, if her husband was in jail, her prospects for having another baby would be curtailed. 
Maybe that would motivate her to want to keep the baby.

I get it wasn’t her egg- but after gestation, labor and delivery along with nursing, I could 100% see how the surrogate would be emotionally attached to the baby and not want to give it up. Gestation, labor and delivery can take toll on a woman emotionally and physically- genetic tie or no.

(Isn’t that why they now require compensated surrogates to have children they are raising? A live birth record isn’t good enough, you have to be parenting a child to qualify as a commercial surrogate in 2021 as a general rule)

 

I could see how she might consider it get her husband released on murder charges, but in the end run away to stay with the child. Especially if it looked like her husband was going away for a long time and she couldn’t change it. Given the option of giving up the baby and possibly being charged as an accessory to murder vs going back to my hometown where I have a support network (despite the poverty etc) and get to keep the baby I gave birth to- option 2 looks attractive to me. 

I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. The husband did want more money for baby, the victim got cocky and entitled and pulled out the “ICE card”(which was dumb- these people have your baby, why would you do that????) and the husband murdered him in anger. the husband was wrong (of course!). 
 

I feel awfully for the bio Mom who likely won’t see her child again and has lost her husband, and I also feel a sympathy for the surrogate mother. I believe she was exploited and may not have had informed consent as well as genuinely wanted to be with the baby. 

 

15 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

In Phobia, the mom did want her baby back as she was on drugs when she gave birth and then when she got cleaned up she wanted the baby back. She knew the bio dad was a bigot and would care that the baby was being raised by a gay couple, but I don’t know if she knew he had it in him to kill the guy.

Ugh that was a tragic storyline. 

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

the victim got cocky and entitled and pulled out the “ICE card”(which was dumb- these people have your baby, why would you do that????) and the husband murdered him in anger. the husband was wrong (of course!). 

Not only that, but was he also employing illegals?  I'm actually a little sketchy on the details as to whether the mom was going to get deported also, which would mean he was employing them.  If so, that would probably cost him a heck of a lot more than whatever the guy was asking for.

 

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

get it wasn’t her egg- but after gestation, labor and delivery along with nursing, I could 100% see how the surrogate would be emotionally attached to the baby and not want to give it up. Gestation, labor and delivery can take toll on a woman emotionally and physically- genetic tie or no.

(Isn’t that why they now require compensated surrogates to have children they are raising? A live birth record isn’t good enough, you have to be parenting a child to qualify as a commercial surrogate in 2021 as a general rule)

And that's why I see paid surrogacy shady as heck.  Renting your body out for prostitution is illegal in most states.  Selling organs is illegal. Selling babies is illegal. But, selling sperm and eggs and renting out wombs for gestation all perfectly legal. Always has seemed like huge disconnect to me.  Plus, like you said, it's a huge emotional toll on the surrogate, which she may not realize until she's 3 to 5 months in, at which point there's not much she can do about it.

[Scarlett45]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Not only that, but was he also employing illegals?  I'm actually a little sketchy on the details as to whether the mom was going to get deported also, which would mean he was employing them.  If so, that would probably cost him a heck of a lot more than whatever the guy was asking for.

The husband was sketchy. Of course that doesn’t mean he should’ve been murdered.
 

But I do believe he was exploiting and mistreating those people because they were undocumented and he could get away with it. He paid the bare minimum to get his fetus gestated and who knows if the surrogate mom was coerced. 

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

The husband was sketchy. Of course that doesn’t mean he should’ve been murdered.
 

But I do believe he was exploiting and mistreating those people because they were undocumented and he could get away with it. He paid the bare minimum to get his fetus gestated and who knows if the surrogate mom was coerced. 

I don’t believe the victim was mistreating his employees - his employees spoke highly of him and I don’t think he coerced Maria into becoming a surrogate, I didn’t get that impression from anything in the episode. I didn’t feel much sympathy for Maria as I think she was in on the plan to try to extort the victim for more money. 

[Notwisconsin]

I just wanted to tell everybody that the Pilot is re-airing on the 14th on SUNDANCE. It's called "EVERYONE'S FAVORITE BAGMAN"  and aired originally as episode 6. It was filmed in 1988. That was 33 years ago.

[andromeda331]

On 7/3/2021 at 2:46 PM, Xeliou66 said:

That was Phobia from season 11 - good episode as well. In that one, the bio mom wanted the kid back, the bio dad didn’t care until he found out the adoptive parents were gay, then he went and confronted and wound up killing one of the adoptive parents and taking the baby. The bio dad had the baby at his house upstate, I don’t think he even wanted the kid as he didn’t seem to know what to do as a parent, he seemed almost relieved when Briscoe and Green showed up to arrest him. He just did the murder cause he was a bigoted piece of shit. The bio mom should’ve faced a harsher punishment - apparently she got off with probation after turning against the bio dad, but it was her actions that set the whole thing in motion.

I agree the bio mom should have gotten a harsher punishment. I don't think she knew her ex would kill the dad. But she wanted her baby back and knew if she told him the baby was being raised by a gay couple he would get the baby away from them. Which is what she wanted. She knew what was she doing. 

[shapeshifter]

I just caught the last 20 minutes of 6.1 “Bitter Fruit,” tuning in just in time to hear a great line:

• [Schiff] Normal looking people out there taking the law in their own hands!

This line out of context makes me think of stories in the news these days.

But this is the episode in which:

Quote

Det. Lenny Briscoe and his new partner Det. Ray Curtis investigate the abduction and murder of 12 year-old Jodie Gaines. She was dropped off by her school bus less than a block from her after school piano lesson. She never showed up. They get a lead from an ATM camera where they find a white van parked on the street where walked by. It leads to the arrest of Nick Capetti who is charged with murder. At his arraignment however the dead girl's mother, Karen Gaines, shoots him dead. She gets a sympathetic judge and a lenient sentence leading DA McCoy to have the case re-investigated. The new suspect in the case is Karen Gaines herself.  imdb.com/title/tt0629176/plotsummary?ref_=tt_stry_pl

—it is revealed that the mother who shot the kidnapper in the courtroom paid a known child molester to kidnap her daughter from the father, who had custody.

After the hired kidnapper is killed by the mom who hired him, the mother of the dead kidnapper claims the kidnapper told her he wanted to take the girl to the hospital before she died, but the girl’s mother told him not to.

However, we never know for sure if this is true. 🤔

 

 

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

I just caught the last 20 minutes of 6.1 “Bitter Fruit,” tuning in just in time to hear a great line:

• [Schiff] Normal looking people out there taking the law in their own hands!

This line out of context makes me think of stories in the news these days.

But this is the episode in which:

—it is revealed that the mother who shot the kidnapper in the courtroom paid a known child molester to kidnap her daughter from the father, who had custody.

After the hired kidnapper is killed by the mom who hired him, the mother of the dead kidnapper claims the kidnapper told her he wanted to take the girl to the hospital before she died, but the girl’s mother told him not to.

However, we never know for sure if this is true. 🤔

 

 

Bitter Fruit is a great episode - some really good investigative work and twists. The mom is that episode was despicable, she hated her husband more than she loved her daughter, as Jack pointed out at the end.

I think it’s pretty clear the kidnapper’s mom didn’t know anything about the crime, Jack basically put words in her mouth and let her know that if she said she knew about the crime then they could put away with woman who killed her son, Claire seemed disturbed by Jack’s actions and called him out, and Jack replied that wouldn’t put the mom on the stand. It was one of the times Jack came close to being unethical but I don’t think he did anything wrong as he just used what the mom said to scare the perp into taking a plea, after she had nearly evaded justice. Still it’s not something that a more straight laced attorney like Ben Stone would’ve done. 

[Spartan Girl]

Jack toed the ethical line quite a lot in the series. But with “Bitter Fruit” I’ll give him an exception because like it was stated he just wanted to scare her into talking a plea. 

Also, that mom was the worst. She deserved everything she got, having her daughter kidnapped by a RAPIST just to get back at her ex. Miss me with the bitch tears about how she didn’t mean for her to get killed. Was Claire actually buying it? I hope not, that’s the kind of crap I expect from Serena!

Edited July 5, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Xeliou66]

38 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Jack toed the ethical line quite a lot in the series. But with “Bitter Fruit” I’ll give him an exception because like it was stated he just wanted to scare her into talking a plea. 

Also, that mom was the worst. She deserved everything she got, having her daughter kidnapped by a RAPIST just to get back at her ex. Miss me with the bitch tears about how she didn’t mean for her to get killed. Was Claire actually buying it? I hope not, that’s the kind of crap I expect from Serena!

Yes that mom was despicable, I really hated her. And no Claire didn’t buy it or have sympathy for her, she was just a bit concerned with Jack’s actions when he basically told the kidnapper’s mom what to say. I didn’t think Jack did anything wrong in that episode, it wasn’t the only time he lied to a defendant to get them to take a plea - it happened at the end of the episode Blood as well, when McCoy told the killer her ex husband would testify about how she didn’t want custody of her son because he was part black. That woman was an evil witch as well. 

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

48 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

...having her daughter kidnapped by a RAPIST just to get back at her ex. Miss me with the bitch tears about how she didn’t mean for her to get killed. Was Claire actually buying it? I hope not, that’s the kind of crap I expect from Serena!

...no Claire didn’t buy it or have sympathy for her, she was just a bit concerned with Jack’s actions when he basically told the kidnapper’s mom what to say.

I'm pretty sure the reason the writers gave Claire the lines questioning Jack's interrogation of the dead rapist's mother (no doubt with direction notes to look disapproving) was so the viewers would be sure to note that the mother was lying.
The previous time I saw "Bitter Fruit," I missed that the rapist's mother was lying, because L&O is often on in the background while I'm doing other stuff. 

[Ailianna]

23 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

Yes that mom was despicable, I really hated her. And no Claire didn’t buy it or have sympathy for her, she was just a bit concerned with Jack’s actions when he basically told the kidnapper’s mom what to say. I didn’t think Jack did anything wrong in that episode, it wasn’t the only time he lied to a defendant to get them to take a plea - it happened at the end of the episode Blood as well, when McCoy told the killer her ex husband would testify about how she didn’t want custody of her son because he was part black. That woman was an evil witch as well. 

Actually, at the end, I think the husband was going to testify about the custody issue. I don't think that was a bluff.

[Xeliou66]

18 minutes ago, Ailianna said:

Actually, at the end, I think the husband was going to testify about the custody issue. I don't think that was a bluff.

If you are talking about the episode Blood, no the husband was absolutely not going to testify against the ex wife and he explicitly said so, he didn’t want his son knowing his mother hated him because he was part black. McCoy even said that he lied at the end, Ross asked him “don’t you feel bad about lying to her?” and Jack replied that he didn’t. 

[Scarlett45]

“Bitter Fruit” reminds me of the one where a woman’s parents HIRED a man to rape her while she was in a vegetative state so that she would become pregnant and they would have a grandchild. That horrified me. Horrified me. Treating their daughter like a breeding cow, never mind the fact that there are people out there get get off on raping people who in no way could defend themselves (like that poor woman in AZ who was raped by a caregiver in her nursing home and gave birth).

 

Does anyone know what that episode was called?
 

And at the end of the story the rapist’s parents as well as the maternal grandparents were going to fight for custody. 

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

I didn’t think Jack did anything wrong in that episode, it wasn’t the only time he lied to a defendant to get them to take a plea - it happened at the end of the episode Blood as well, when McCoy told the killer her ex husband would testify about how she didn’t want custody of her son because he was part black. That woman was an evil witch as well. 

The ex-wife in Blood was awful. She MURDERED the second wife because the woman wanted to raise her own child.

Although, every passing black person I’ve ever spoken to in that generation understood that either 1. Not having kids, 2. Keeping their bio family hidden from their professional life was important. If the guy was so terrified of being “outed” why didn’t he have a vasectomy? Especially after his first son was born and he didn’t want any more children? (For the record I’m not excusing his ex-wife’s murderous ways, the writing was just weird on that one)

I feel awful for his poor second wife who was murdered.

The first wife already knew her husband was black years before, it’s not as if the “shock” lead her to murder. She was convicted right?

 

[Xeliou66]

24 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

“Bitter Fruit” reminds me of the one where a woman’s parents HIRED a man to rape her while she was in a vegetative state so that she would become pregnant and they would have a grandchild. That horrified me. Horrified me. Treating their daughter like a breeding cow, never mind the fact that there are people out there get get off on raping people who in no way could defend themselves (like that poor woman in AZ who was raped by a caregiver in her nursing home and gave birth).

 

Does anyone know what that episode was called?
 

And at the end of the story the rapist’s parents as well as the maternal grandparents were going to fight for custody. 

The ex-wife in Blood was awful. She MURDERED the second wife because the woman wanted to raise her own child.

Although, every passing black person I’ve ever spoken to in that generation understood that either 1. Not having kids, 2. Keeping their bio family hidden from their professional life was important. If the guy was so terrified of being “outed” why didn’t he have a vasectomy? Especially after his first son was born and he didn’t want any more children? (For the record I’m not excusing his ex-wife’s murderous ways, the writing was just weird on that one)

I feel awful for his poor second wife who was murdered.

The first wife already knew her husband was black years before, it’s not as if the “shock” lead her to murder. She was convicted right?

 

The episode you are talking about is season 8 episode 14 Grief, it was only the mother who hired the nurse to impregnate the comatose daughter, the father had no clue what his wife had done. I agree that was a fucked up episode and I didn’t have any sympathy for the mother, who in their right mind would hire someone to have sex with their comatose daughter? That woman was sick.

And yeah the murderer in Blood was a despicable, racist bitch. And yes she did go to prison, after McCoy told her the ex husband was going to testify she didn’t want custody of her son because he was black, (Jack was lying, the ex husband wasn’t going to testify) she accepted the man 1 plea and was sentenced to 8 and a third to 25 years in prison. 

[Scarlett45]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The episode you are talking about is season 8 episode 14 Grief, it was only the mother who hired the nurse to impregnate the comatose daughter, the father had no clue what his wife had done. I agree that was a fucked up episode and I didn’t have any sympathy for the mother, who in their right mind would hire someone to have sex with their comatose daughter? That woman was sick.

Thank you thank you! Yes yes, the father had no idea what was going on- I remember now. That awful mother, she was very sick.

[ifionlyknew]

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

That awful mother, she was very sick.

She said God owed her a grandchild.  Way to make it all about yourself.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, ifionlyknew said:

She said God owed her a grandchild.  Way to make it all about yourself.

Most mothers with an incapacitated daughter would do everything to protect her from sexual assault and pregnancy- knowing how vulnerable women are in that position. Not PAY someone to violate their own child. Awful. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Most mothers with an incapacitated daughter would do everything to protect her from sexual assault and pregnancy- knowing how vulnerable women are in that position. Not PAY someone to violate their own child. Awful. 

Regarding the episode "Grief," I'm taking the Devil’s Advocate position, beginning with this bit of dialogue between Lennie Briscoe and (I think) the doctor:

Quote

[DOCTOR] …She's been here about two years. Head-on collision on the Taconic. Bad road. Her husband died on impact, as did the five-month-old fetus Wendy was carrying.
[LENNIE] Well, we'll try not to tire her out, but we do have some questions for her.
[DOCTOR (CHUCKLES)] I didn't make myself clear, I guess. Wendy Singer has been in an irreversible coma since the accident…

I consider: With her daughter in “an irreversible coma” for 2 years, I imagine the mother wished she could end the indignity of her daughter’s “existence,” much like I grieved for my mother’s horrible state of life during her last 2 years of immobility and not being able to speak, which followed 3 years of her regularly begging us to kill her after the death of my father.

The daughter was 5 months pregnant when she went into the coma and lost the baby, so the mother grieved that loss too.
And, the show made it clear that carrying a baby to full term would likely kill the comatose daughter, whereas the daughter might otherwise stay in a vegetative state for many more years.
So, the comatose daughter's mother:

Quote

[WENDY'S MOTHER] I cried all the time. I had daydreams Wendy was fine. We were in the park, with a stroller, everyone saying, "What an adorable baby."
[DETECTIVE?] What about Harding?
[MOTHER] I used to watch him bathe Wendy, (SIGHS) and I finally got up the nerve to ask him.
[DETECTIVE?] To ask him what?
[MOTHER] To To make a baby with Wendy.
[DETECTIVE?] And he agreed?
[MOTHER] If I paid him

So I don’t see the mother as a monster, but rather someone who made bad choices that nobody stopped. If Harding hadn’t been the one caring for Wendy’s body, the pregnancy scheme would never have been hatched. 

Edited July 6, 2021 by shapeshifter

[Xeliou66]

I just think the mother in Grief was a loon - I mean no one in their right mind hires someone to impregnate their comatose daughter. I think the parents of the guy who had sex with the comatose woman would be more fit parents to the kid than the loony mom and her husband. Either way I feel bad for the kid entering the world under those circumstances.

[Katy M]

14 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

think the parents of the guy who had sex with the comatose woman would be more fit parents to the kid than the loony mom and her husband.

Are you sure about that?  They raised a guy who would have sex with a comatose woman.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

16 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

think the parents of the guy who had sex with the comatose woman would be more fit parents to the kid than the loony mom and her husband.

Are you sure about that?  They raised a guy who would have sex with a comatose woman.

That’s what I (and Claire) thought too. 
The maternal grandfather would be the only suitable parent of those we saw. 

[ifionlyknew]

20 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So I don’t see the mother as a monster, but rather someone who made bad choices that nobody stopped

Her bad choices included facilitating a rape.  Her daughter was comatose so she could not consent. That is rape. Just because the daughter was unaware of what was happening shouldn't be waved away as her mother making a bad choice.  She might have been grieving the loss of her daughter and unborn grandchild but that doesn't mean what she did isn't a crime.  

[Ailianna]

Not just a rape. She knew the pregnancy would most likely kill her daughter. She planned a horrible violation that would also result in death. That's not just "a bad choice."

[Spartan Girl]

And the fact that the daughter was brain dead and never going to recover makes it even more of a violation. No amount of grief and pain can justify paying someone to basically desecrate your daughter’s corpse.

[Xeliou66]

Memo From The Dark Side was just on, I love this episode and I have to say, without trying to start a political fight, it’s a shame no real life lawyer has had the balls to do what McCoy did in this episode and prosecute torturers, even if those who ordered torture could probably never be put away for the reasons we saw in this episode, it was still awesome seeing McCoy and company try, this is one of Jack’s best episodes, I love seeing his fiery passion even as DA, and I loved Cutter’s lawyering in this one as well, asking the smug bastard law professor “what is it about this country you don’t get?” and he gave a strong closing argument as well.

It was infuriating how the law professor was able to get away with not only torture but also the shooting death of the veteran that started the episode, he wiggled his way out of punishment with technicalities. That guy was scum.

On another note about this episode, I also liked how Van Buren announcing she had cancer was done quickly and not in a soapy manner that detracted from the episode, the detectives were concerned for her but they got on with their business of solving the case and Van Buren didn’t let her illness get in the way of work.