S02.05: Shadow Puppets

[shapeshifter]

Quote

A new revelation puts Howard Prime and Quayle in jeopardy. Life at Echo is disrupted. Clare reconnects with her past.

Episode airs Sunday, January 6, 9/8 CT.
New episodes generally drop sometime shortly after midnight Saturday night/Sunday morning via On Demand and STARZ streaming service--or so it seems.

[mxc90]

I had a feeling Qualye's secretary was the asset. Does Peter have enough time to convince them she is Shadow and leave no doubt? Peter is a "Lucky" man, somehow he will get out of this with no problem. 

Poor Peter. Going through all this for his love for Clare. 

I'm slowly beginning to like Naya. I hope she survives this season.

Ian/Wesley Pierce is from the other side working for Management. Where is his other? Wonder why he gave up that life to go over there and which management brought him over?

What a surprise! ECHO has terrible security. A guard is asked his name and instantly puts his entire family in jeopardy. I was shocked they didn't kill him after it was done.

Did Peter Prime survive? I will assume he did, we didn't see a body.

Was Osman going to kill Howard?

Emily is a tough one to go in alone. 

Yanek needed to have a chat with the Lamberts about his theory (too late now) . That would have been some discussion.

Yanek is Mira's father. I doubt she broke him out for a family reunion.

For a moment, I thought Spencer was going to the apartment to kill Clare. 

How can Lambert not see why his other is infatuated with Clare. She's gorgeous.

I gave a mini cheer when Howard told the guy "I don't have time for this". 

I wonder what's the punishment for the guy bringing a "picture of modern technology" to the office?

 

Howard to Emily: What do we do now?

Emily: Change the tire!

Edited January 6, 2019 by mxc90

[Coxfires]

Wow, that had me on the edge of my seat, the tension was incredible, so much happening! Less character study here but huge plot action 

I need to rewatch it though to now grasp the little details and subtelties, they turn out to be very important with that show.

And I repeat it each week but the acting on that show is magnificent, and Harry Lloyd was so good in this one

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Peter is a "Lucky" man, somehow he will get of this with no problem. 

"Luck." Yes. Coincidentally, this week I had several conversations about "luck" and the part luck plays in ones success vs. the part ones choices play in ones success.
On TV, the actors who have contracts generally play characters who have "luck" during gun fights and other life-and-death scenarios. When KindHoward didn't get shot in the volley of bullets, I first thought of it as lead-actor-luck.
But this show does not settle for that kind of luck. For one thing, Luck seems to be part of the narrative of the differences between the two dimensions.
Anyway, KindHoward might have had a bit of conventional or TV or Counterpart luck in dodging the bullets, but he ultimately survived when he went against his personal principles by shooting the shooter and proving Yanek's earlier-in-the-episode stated belief in self-preservation to be stronger than ones principles.
So, kudos to the show for doing more than just lead-actor-luck.
Peter too has more than just lead-actor-luck, but seemingly all of his "luck" has been manufactured by Management. 

 

2 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Poor Peter. Going through all this for his love for Clare. 

Really? I never thought he loved her. Or were you being sarcastic? I thought Peter appreciated marrying the daughter of a VIP who could further his career and that her beauty was just icing on the cake [and then later just kept her secret to protect himself].*
Spencer and Clare seem to be the OTP of the series (and maybe too, in the end, KindHoward and Alt-Emily).
*Editing to add: I forgot about Peter's heartfelt ILYs in what he thought were his final goodbyes in his voicemail to Clare (while she was making love with Spencer), so, yes, he evidently has grown to love her.

 

2 hours ago, mxc90 said:

I'm slowly beginning to like Naya. I hope she survives this season.

IMO, Naya's been awesome since she walked onto our screens.

 

2 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Ian/Wesley Pierce is from the other side working for Management. Where is his other? Wonder why he gave up that life to go over there and which management brought him over?

Perhaps because I live near Chicago, my first guess was that Ian was a victim of systematic racism in some way, whether that meant unsurvivable poverty, oppression by an unfair criminal justice system, or something else. But we shall see.

 

 

2 hours ago, mxc90 said:

How can Lambert not see why his other is infatuated with Clare. She's gorgeous.

My first guess would be that the Lambert in this episode was only into guys, whereas his other was bisexual.
My second guess would be that Clare deliberately only targeted one of the Lamberts with her wiles--but how would she ever tell them apart, especially when they were always in cahoots with one another? 
So, inclined to go with first guess.
Still, why even have Lambert say that?
Third guess: Maybe Lambert was lying and really loved her too and was protecting her with the comment.
Fourth guess: Neither Lambert "loved" her. This fits with what we've seen, IIRC. Lambert was lying to protect her, but lying to protect "the cause" and her role in it rather than to protect her out of "love."
Fourth guess it is!

 

2 hours ago, mxc90 said:

Howard to Emily: What do we do now?

Emily [@MXC90]: Change the tire!

Heh, that's what I thought too. I bet those versions of Emily and Howard are quite capable of changing tires, whereas their counterparts would not be. 
Having those versions of Emily and Howard get a flat would be an example of "real" luck.

 

Whatever happened to Roland Fancher/Clare's father/Richard Schiff? Did he die? I can't recall, and it's not mentioned in the wiki: counterpartstarz.wikia.com/wiki/Roland_Fancher

Edited January 6, 2019 by shapeshifter

[mxc90]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

"Luck." Yes. Coincidentally, this week I had several conversations about "luck" and the part it plays in ones success vs. ones choices.
On TV, the actors who have contracts generally play characters who have "luck" during gun fights and other life-and-death scenarios. When KindHoward didn't get shot in the volley of bullets, I first thought of it as lead-actor-luck.
But this show does not settle for that kind of luck. For one thing, Luck seems to be part of the narrative of the differences between the two dimensions.
Anyway, KindHoward might have had a bit of conventional or TV or Counterpart luck in dodging the bullets, but he ultimately survived when he went against his personal principles by shooting the shooter and proving Yanek's earlier-in-the-episode stated belief in self-preservation to be stronger than ones principles.
So, kudos to the show for doing more than just lead-actor-luck.
Peter too has more than just lead-actor-luck, but seemingly all of his "luck" has been manufactured by Management. 

Peter Alpha has been mentioning many times of his "luck". Not all his luck is from Management: the success at the roulette table (passed the winnings to a homeless man), (last season) he was successful/lucky creating an alibi and surviving crashing the car with Clare as the passenger, and this episode: the story from the Peter Prime about the events at the soccer match/how their fortunes turned out. There's something else I'm forgetting.

 

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Really? I never thought he loved her. Or were you being sarcastic? I thought Peter appreciated marrying the daughter of a VIP who could further his career and that her beauty was just icing on the cake. Spencer and Clare seem to be the OTP of the series (and maybe too, in the end, KindHoward and Alt-Emily).

Peter had many opportunities to turn in Clare or kill her. Maybe he didn't turn her in for the sole reason he thought he would go to jail but I think he is still in love with her.

When he was on the phone reading the "script", I don't think "I love you" was a line. I could be wrong. I will have to go back and hear the other person reading the same script.

 

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

My first guess would be that the Lambert in this episode was only into guys, whereas his other was bisexual.
My second guess would be that Clare deliberately only targeted one of the Lamberts with her wiles--but how would she ever tell them apart, especially when they were always in cahoots with one another? 
So, gonna go with first guess.
Still, why even have Lambert say that? Maybe he was lying and really loved her too and was protecting her with the comment.

 

I'll go with you first guess too.  I will take the fourth for the win!

 

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Whatever happened to Roland Fancher/Clare's father/Richard Schiff? Did he die? I can't recall, and it's not mentioned in the wiki: counterpartstarz.wikia.com/wiki/Roland_Fancher

He is alive. In the first episode, he made a brief appearance at Clare's/Peter's apartment for dinner. I don't think we've seen him since.

Edited January 6, 2019 by mxc90

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

When he was on the phone reading the "script", I don't think "I love you" was a line. I could be wrong. I will have to go back and hear the other person reading the same script.

Oops! Right! Will edit my post.

BTW, I already edited my Lambert guesses while you were posting. You might want to go with my #4. ;-)

[mxc90]

5 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

BTW, I already edited my Lambert guesses while you were posting. You might want to go with my #4. ;-)

Ok. The fourth it is!

[shapeshifter]

19 minutes ago, mxc90 said:

Peter Alpha has been mentioning many times of his "luck". Not all his luck is from Management: the success at the roulette table (passed the winnings to a homeless man), (last season) he was successful/lucky creating an alibi and surviving crashing the car with Clare as the passenger, and this episode: the story from the Peter Prime about the events at the soccer match/how their fortunes turned out. There's something else I'm forgetting.

I totally missed/forgot about the use of luck previously in the show--and even glossed over the use in this episode regarding the soccer match. I may have to do some selective re-watching, or at least look at transcripts of the captioning. 

 

I wonder how long the writers were sitting on the title "Shadow Puppets" before they christened this episode with that title?

[mxc90]

3 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I wonder how long the writers were sitting on the title "Shadow Puppets" before they christened this episode with that title?

I think Sock and Meat were on the table before they settled for this.

[Quilt Fairy]

Does anyone remember the scene from In and Out where Joan Cusack's character, in her wedding dress, runs into the street outside a bar and shouts to the world " Is EVERYBODY gay?"  That's what I felt like watching this episode, except my question to the world would be "Does EVERYBODY on this show have a super-complicated backstory?"  Janek, I can understand.  He was obviously a complicated character from the get go, not your average torturer/interrogator.  But Ian? Why does Ian's character need all the shit they laid on him?

Make no mistake, I liked the episode, except for the parts with Mira and her apparent super-powers.  For a world that lost so much of it's population, she certainly doesn't hold life in high regard. (And to the poster who mentioned it earlier, I too thought that the turncoat who turned off the security system for her would be shot as soon as he opened the gate.)

I'm not that surprised that Quale's secretary turned out to be from Prime, she's had a small bit in every office scene this season, most of them totally unnecessary: "I couldn't get through to your wife, Mr. Quale", "Here's your coffee, Mr. Quale", etc. 

As to the 2 Lamberts, there's something missing in their story, something I assume we just haven't been told yet as opposed to a logical lapse.  Prime Management keeps a close watch on hundreds of people because of who their others are.  I don't believe that Alpha Management also wouldn't keep a close watch on the other of the highest ranking Prime official in our world.

I have to suspend my disbelief a little extra every time I hear about someone who has been living in the other world (in either direction).  There is only one crossing point, it's controlled closely on both sides.  How were all these people sent across and never accounted for?

Edited January 6, 2019 by Quilt Fairy

[mxc90]

44 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Why does Ian's character need all the shit they laid on him?

Just a guess: His story line will replace the departed Lambert's and needed some layers to his backstory. 

 

52 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Janek, I can understand.  He was obviously a complicated character from the get go, not your average torturer/interrogator.

 Makes me wonder how a scientist goes from finding or creating the split to being held prisoner. I hope we get answers next week.

 

56 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

There is only one crossing point, it's controlled closely on both sides.  How were all these people sent across and never accounted for?

Was it ever explained: (from Season one) When Howard would sit and interact with someone from the other side or when he met the other Howard, was that some big computer screen for them to see one another or glass separating them? If it's just glass, then there's another way to cross.

The House Keeping department is falling behind gathering the people who never came back.

[rwlevin]

Seriously, what was the point of introducing a second Lambert only to just kill them both off? The second asset could have been introduced a dozen other ways and it just seemed like lazy writing to me. 

 

And im not just saying that because I like the actor, he plays smarmy well and he's ever since his hollyoaks days, but I mean come on!

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

ave to suspend my disbelief a little extra every time I hear about someone who has been living in the other world (in either direction).  There is only one crossing point, it's controlled closely on both sides.  How were all these people sent across and never accounted for?

Maybe?:

[WaltersHair]

I would have given the show more props if they had dispatched Claire and/or Peter. I think they're here to stay, however, to help play out this protracted Armageddon that Mira is bringing.

I've always been bothered about the lack of people-tracking skills the crossing has, especially in regards to high ranking people like Emily Silk. But then remembered they are 20 years behind in tech, so no facial recognition software, GPS, etc.

I also wonder if Management is comprised of Singles without counterparts.

I really don't like the 'your fate is already laid out and you can't do anything about it' narrative. It absolved people of personal responsibility and implies there's no free will.

[scrb]

So Osman was on the inside, interrogating Howard Alpha — forget why they even brought him in — and then sent off to prison with this tracking device in the pill.

But he didn’t know the location of this secret prison until he tracked Howard Alpha?

And Mira’s real plan was to spring Yanek?

Why didn’t he track some other random guy before?

Wonder if we will see Peter Prime again or that was just a mini diversion to fill time before Mira hatched her all-out war plot.

Presumably the Prime world will be against her, as well as the Alpha world.  She may have indoctrinated and placed what, at most a hundred or two hundred shadows?

That’s not going to be enough to wage war against an entire world.  Sure they can commit a lot of terrorism but they need WMDs, not just fanatics like the secretary willing to kill herself for the cause — and why kill herself, because if she’s interrogated she might give up a few other sleepers?

Yeah Clare is suppose to be important since she’s close to Peter and her supposed father is a big shot.

But it will be ridiculous if Peter is ever taken seriously again.  If Nayah buys the cover story, she will appear like a sucker.

I still don’t get why Howard Prime is covering for Peter and Clare if his objective is to stop Mira’s conspiracy but knows Clare is one of Mira’s key shadows, if not THE key shadow.  

In any event, they’re going to have to do more than reveal secret identities of shadows if we are to take Mira’s plot seriously.  She’s supposedly on the run and keeps losing key colleagues yet she’s able to hire mercenaries or blackmail guards in a prison the location of which they just learned an episode or two ago.

Yet she wants to destroy the alternate world with what, targeted killings, blackmail and a few dozen or a couple of hundred at the most shadow sleeper agents?

[Bort]

2 minutes ago, scrb said:

So Osman was on the inside, interrogating Howard Alpha — forget why they even brought him in — and then sent off to prison with this tracking device in the pill.

But he didn’t know the location of this secret prison until he tracked Howard Alpha?

And Mira’s real plan was to spring Yanek?

Why didn’t he track some other random guy before?

They’d said that they hadn’t sent anyone new to Echo “for a long time.” I’m guessing anyone else he interrogated had cracked before he could try recommending they be sent to Echo and there were just no opportunities til Howard came along.

[Quilt Fairy]

1 hour ago, WaltersHair said:

I also wonder if Management is comprised of Singles

I read that and thought "Maybe they need a dating site".  

This is what happens when you watch Counterpart and Dirty John in the same evening.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

really don't like the 'your fate is already laid out and you can't do anything about it' narrative. It absolved people of personal responsibility and implies there's no free will.

I'm not sure that the writers wouldn't agree with you and want viewers to believe in free will—or at least consider it.

 

 

2 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

3 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I also wonder if Management is comprised of Singles

I read that and thought "Maybe they need a dating site".  

This is what happens when you watch Counterpart and Dirty John in the same evening.

Hee. I momentarily took it that way too. 

[Haleth]

Harry Lloyd was superb in this episode.  With both Peters.  I knew Peter Prime (our side, right?  I get confused about which is Prime and which is Alpha) was not likely to shoot himself but I held my breath the whole scene.  I hope Peter Alpha was off looking for his tapes when the bullets were flying.

Last year I never would have believed I'd be sympathetic to Peter.  And I'm even starting to feel sorry for Clare, especially after she learned her parents were murdered because of her.

Man, JK Simmons, Harry Lloyd, Olivia Williams, James Cromwell, and a whole lot of actors whose names I don't know.  What an outstanding cast!

[Coxfires]

14 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Harry Lloyd was superb in this episode.  With both Peters.  I knew Peter Prime (our side, right?  I get confused about which is Prime and which is Alpha) was not likely to shoot himself but I held my breath the whole scene.  I hope Peter Alpha was off looking for his tapes when the bullets were flying.

Last year I never would have believed I'd be sympathetic to Peter.  And I'm even starting to feel sorry for Clare, especially after she learned her parents were murdered because of her.

Man, JK Simmons, Harry Lloyd, Olivia Williams, James Cromwell, and a whole lot of actors whose names I don't know.  What an outstanding cast!

Alpha is our world and Prime the other. This comes from mathematics where the alpha value is the original one and prime is the derived value (derivations and integrals,  ah the memories, all nighters for partials...). 

And yes, what this cast does superbly is make these characters deeply human and relatable. Quayle represents the epitome of what should be hated these days, egoistical priviledged incompetent white twerp, but he manages to make him real, flaws and all.

And Peter Prime reminds me of Brad Pitt in 12 Monkeys, with a childish side that makes him endearing. I honestly felt bad for both versions. The self depreciating one locked in that basement for too long, always thinking he is the bad version, and the other put in the deepest shit ever because of his incompetence and gullability. It was interesting to see Alpha reverting to being a lost child when he asked Prime Howard what to do, you could see the similarity with his other right there.

Even if you despise the character, Alpha Peter call to Claire, saying goodbye to their daughter before going killing himself was touching.

I really need to rewatch to analyse everything in this episode.

[wilnil]

10 hours ago, scrb said:

I still don’t get why Howard Prime is covering for Peter and Clare if his objective is to stop Mira’s conspiracy but knows Clare is one of Mira’s key shadows, if not THE key shadow.

I think just because letting their situation be revealed is likely to get him outed as Prime, which would lead to him getting sent straight to that OI holding cell for stranded crossers, or worse, unless he killed Peter and Clare before they could talk.

[go4luca]

8 hours ago, Coxfires said:

I really need to rewatch to analyse everything in this episode.

Right there with you.  There was a lot to unpack in this episode. 

Every week I am more impressed with the stellar cast.  Especially in portraying two succinctly different versions of their characters.  Must be a blast for them as actors.  I freely admit at times my brain hurts trying to keep both worlds and human versions straight.  But I love that the show keeps you on your toes and makes you think.  

Do we really have to wait two weeks for the next installment?  Just when everything that went down just happened?!  I've been seeing mention of this in various places.

[WaltersHair]

Quote

I read that and thought "Maybe they need a dating site"

LOL. I actually mulled over what term to use. Doubleless? Counterpartless? Otherless? The characters themselves seem to favor the term "My Other" which is too close in name to a couple of horror movies that scared me as a child.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

LOL. I actually mulled over what term to use. Doubleless? Counterpartless? Otherless? The characters themselves seem to favor the term "My Other" which is too close in name to a couple of horror movies that scared me as a child.

"Otherless" is poetic and descriptive.
Plus, I don't generally do horror, so no bad associations.

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, go4luca said:

Do we really have to wait two weeks for the next installment?  Just when everything that went down just happened?!  I've been seeing mention of this in various places.

That's what it said when they gave the next episode preview and Starz should know what its own schedule is.  There must be something big airing next Sunday night, but I don't know what it is.

Was there any purpose in the guard hiding Peter Prime's tapes and notebooks other than knowing he would then pitch a fit that would precipitate the brawl?  I can't see any reason beyond that, and yet it seems a stretch to imagine that chain of events.  Also, he didn't take them but put them in among the dirty laundry as if someone would retrieve them.  They couldn't actually have anything useful in them, could they?  I can't imagine anyone except Janek finding PP's detailed analysis of the two soccer games worth studying.

[Amethyst]

This was a great episode, I was losing it near the end.  I really need to watch this show from the beginning though.

I knew the cracks were showing with Howard Alpha.  The way he snaps at Emily, and now Brody, the guy in the containment room.  People who know you well can pick up on subtle changes and details in personality.  Even if Howard Prime were bored senseless by the story Brody was telling, he would never tell someone off like that.

I did feel for Peter, Alpha and Prime.  Both versions are hapless losers, but they go about it in different ways.  Peter Alpha is so mentally damaged that believes a childish temper tantrum ruined a soccer game and somehow warped the timeline.  Peter Prime finally runs out of luck (or so he thinks) and would take his own life.  I don't think his call to Clare was a ruse, I think he does love her, even knowing she's not the real Clare.  And they showed him looking at a picture of himself and baby Spencer.

Naya is a great addition.  She's smart without giving herself away.  Glad she caught on to Peter, even if it wasn't the way she thought she would.

Are there no security cameras in that building?  Even with Milla having access, no one saw anything on a camera?

Still confused on Milla, though.  I get that she was the asset sent into take out Lambert, but why did she kill herself and give Peter a backstory?

I'm fine with replacing Baldwin with Mira as a baddie.  I'm not sure what the point of Baldwin is anymore.  

[shapeshifter]

@Amethyst, I think you may want to edit your post^ to swap your Alphas and Primes:

14 hours ago, Coxfires said:

Alpha is our world and Prime the other. This comes from mathematics where the alpha value is the original one and prime is the derived value (derivations and integrals,  ah the memories, all nighters for partials...). 

 

27 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

Still confused on Milla, though.  I get that she was the asset sent into take out Lambert, but why did she kill herself and give Peter a backstory?

I'm assuming killing herself was something she was trained/programmed to do under certain circumstances.

 

28 minutes ago, Amethyst said:

I'm fine with replacing Baldwin with Mira as a baddie.  I'm not sure what the point of Baldwin is anymore. 

Baldwin has always been a convenient assassin. 

[kikaha]

On 1/7/2019 at 12:26 AM, scrb said:

 

Yet she wants to destroy the alternate world with what, targeted killings, blackmail and a few dozen or a couple of hundred at the most shadow sleeper agents?

Her father, who said he helped create the alternate world, must also know how to destroy it.  Not with blackmail or targeted killings, but technologically.  That is why she broke him out of prison. 

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I'm assuming killing herself was something she was trained/programmed to do under certain circumstances.

But I think she mentioned she only got word "this morning" about what she had to do, which apparently included stealing the tape that no one but Quale knew about and a quickie execution of 4 guards and Lambert Alpha.  (I will say Mira trains some kick-ass agents.)  Presumably she got her instructions from Spencer (the guy, not Clare's baby daughter).

[Coxfires]

1 hour ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Presumably she got her instructions from Spencer (the guy, not Clare's baby daughter).

The specification made me laugh ! Baby Spencer is the mastermind Management who protects her mommy and daddy 🤣, that is why Quayle is so lucky and Clare still not discovered!!!!

[tennisgurl]

Baby Spencer was the mastermind the whole time! Oh my God! 

For real though, that was a super intense episode, so much to unpack. The cracks are starting to show in the plan learn more about Indigo's evil scheme, especially with Howard Prime showing his actual self more and more (its just so hard for him to be nice for so long!) and Peter Alpha falling apart more and more. Plus now Claire's child hood bestie original Spencer is in town, so thats adding yet another wild card into the situation. 

I like Naya, she hasn't figured everything out, but she is certainly getting closer than anyone else has to the plan. I think that she might say that she buys into Peters whole "it was my secretary, not my wife!" last minute plan, but is actually just going along with it to keep an eye on him. 

I really do feel terribly bad for both Peters, both in over his head falling apart rich kid Peter Alpha, and poor, twitchy, little boy lost Alpha Peter. Alpha Peter going on about how he must have broken the timeline and ruined his own life because he got upset when he got lost at a game as a child was just so terribly sad to watch. I think that Peter Alpha really does love Claire and baby Spencer, even now that he knows who Claire really is. I think that last I Love You was for real, and he really did want to say goodbye to his family before he killed himself. Which makes it extra sad that his wife was boning some other guy in their living room. Of course, Peter was earlier picking up hookers, so they have a lot of issues from the start, even beyond the whole "assassin from an alternate universe" thing. Both Peters are being manipulated by forces beyond their control, just by different means and to different extents. 

I am really interested in seeing more about why and how the universe was split in the first place. It sounds like the original scientists had good intentions, but it somehow went wrong, and this somehow led to one of them becoming a memory extractor/interrogator who had an evil terror daughter. 

[Mardo2044]

On 1/6/2019 at 3:05 PM, rwlevin said:

Seriously, what was the point of introducing a second Lambert only to just kill them both off? The second asset could have been introduced a dozen other ways and it just seemed like lazy writing to me. 

 

And im not just saying that because I like the actor, he plays smarmy well and he's ever since his hollyoaks days, but I mean come on!

I know, pope was a very good counterpart villain.  Lambert made my skin crawl and was just an interesting opportunist playing both sides and I would have loved to see that character play out a little more.  Mira is just meh.... very one dimiensional compared to the other "villains"

[Haleth]

So apparently even with the crossing closed there is some way to communicate across worlds?  Maybe stealing Peter Prime's tapes was a test to see how Peter Alpha would react to finding his recording stolen?  

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I think you may want to edit your post^ to swap your Alphas and Primes:

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused!  (Thanks, Coxfires, for the explanation.  Got it now.)

[Bort]

I don't think it was anything more than Mira telling the guard to create a distraction and the guard knowing Peter and his tapes would be the easiest way to set everyone off.

[WaltersHair]

Hmm. I thought last season Mira had made it plain they were going to release the virus on Alpha? Or implied it?

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, kariyaki said:

I don't think it was anything more than Mira telling the guard to create a distraction and the guard knowing Peter and his tapes would be the easiest way to set everyone off.

That's what I think too, but this does fit with the narrative--

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

So apparently even with the crossing closed there is some way to communicate across worlds?  Maybe stealing Peter Prime's tapes was a test to see how Peter Alpha would react to finding his recording stolen? 

--and maybe the writers saw the parallel as a sort of poetry that was too contrived to be otherwise unpacked.

[Coxfires]

OK, after rewatch, time to drive more into it.

We finally got more information on the origins of the duplication. What we knew till now was only Quayle's exposition in the Pilot, an experiment gone wrong, but that could have also been BS, just what he was told. Yanek seems to confirm that he and a team of scientists are responsable for this, and that the initial utopia of "2 worlds twice the knowledge" got corrupted by greed. There are huge hints he is Mira's father or at least was his mom's lover. Juma hinted that Mira used to be privvy to Management, but she apparently needs Janek's knowledge (I doubt she freed him out of daughterly love). What is her final endgame? It could be either destroying Alpha world out of revenge or wanting to recombine the 2 worlds in one.

Ian/Wesley is an Alpha who defected to Prime under Management protection due to threats on his life. What was he doing in Alpha world that put his life at risk but still mattered enough for Prime Management? Was his affair with Emily Prime a ploy or sincere ?

Clare' s weaknesses are Spencers, both Big and Baby. Big Spencer is her childhood love while Baby Spencer is the most precious thing she has. She seemed sentimental when she deemed Peter still valuable, although I think it is not because she loves him but because he remains Baby Spencer's father. Clare enrollment to the cause was due to her parent's death and I would think that even if she despises Peter, she wouldn't want to have her daughter's dad die. Now Big Spencer's sincerity with her remain to be proven,  but good for them to finally do it, I guess.

Howard Alpha kills for the second time. After all these talks with Yanek he might ask himself lots of questions now. What his and Emily Prime next moves are going to be is a good question.

Naya is an awesome addition, I don't think she will get fooled by Quayle cover story about the secretary being Shadow. She might suspect that he is covered and persistent as she is I don't see her letting him off the hook just like that 

And even if the secretary story is bought,  Quayle will still be viewed as the moron who got fooled by a woman, how could he stay director of strategy in these conditions?

But he is "important", at least to Indigo, and his other was locked for super long, since he was quite young apparently, but why, and would Management really not know about it? Last season when he was named responsible for the Mole search it sounded like Management deliberately put him there but then they hire Naya to uncover him? 

This episode felt more like a 2h thriller than a simple episode really!! And apart from all that, the little touches here and there... The stolen tapes in both worlds. The Lamberts contradicting Janek's theory. Mira's look to Emily. "No one important ever call me here..."

And unfortunately not enough people watch the show, despite it being stellar. If it isn't renewed I hope the end of S2 is satisfying or that it gets picked back up by Amazon or Netflix, whatever. Come on viewers, help quality shows live on!

Edited January 9, 2019 by Coxfires

[shapeshifter]

17 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

Clare enrollment to the cause was due to her parent's death and I would think that even if she despises Peter, she wouldn't want to have her daughter's dad die. 

Good point. I wonder if they will have Clare give voice to this motivation. A lot is left to the viewers to figure out or not.

 

22 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

The Lamberts contradicting Janek's theory.

I'm not following this comment about the Lamberts contradicting Janek's theory. Maybe I missed something important. Or are you just expressing a dislike for the Lamberts and remarking that even one of them is too many? 

[Coxfires]

@shapeshifter 

Yanek seem to say that 2 versions cannot coexist and will end up destroying each other, while Lamberts (And the ménage à trois women last season) were on the contrary symbiotic and perfectly happy with each other. Yanek is all "this is war" while Lambert was "double the fun". So even if Yanek was there as the beginning, Howard wasn't so wrong in challenging him about having authority on how you act towards your other. Maybe it doesn't have to be war, and maybe you can be "the same but different" (as Quayle Prime said,  once again brillant dialogue to sum up the whole show). You can be very similar but still have a choice.

[Mardo2044]

I don't buy that Howard Prime would lose his cool and expose himself as other than Howard Alpha so easily in the evidence room.  The guard read it as "pressure" from Quayle Alpha but that is sloppy covert work.  Howard P. has stayed alive longtime in prime and I doubt they stay alive long in prime If they are sloppy.  Now when he was telling Quayle he can't keep covering for him being impatient and expedient Howard Prime....yes!  Also not playing the part being patient always with Emily at "home", yes.  And I think he would start taking some serious iron chef lessons on the sly!

[Mardo2044]

Quayle alpha says he made the tape, asks what he should do?  Howard Prime says can't keep covering for his weakness...there is no containing it.  Wow, some classic Howard Prime throw down.  Love it!

Anyone wonder if Fannie's future spouse Felix becomes important later?  The small seemingly unimportant moments are normally there for a reason.  Great writing!

[Quilt Fairy]

2 hours ago, Mardo2044 said:

I don't buy that Howard Prime would lose his cool and expose himself as other than Howard Alpha so easily in the evidence room.  The guard read it as "pressure" from Quayle Alpha but that is sloppy covert work.  Howard P. has stayed alive longtime in prime and I doubt they stay alive long in prime If they are sloppy.  Now when he was telling Quayle he can't keep covering for him being impatient and expedient Howard Prime....yes!  Also not playing the part being patient always with Emily at "home", yes.  And I think he would start taking some serious iron chef lessons on the sly!

Howard Prime has been a covert agent, a Prime operative in the Alpha world, but he's never had to be undercover as his meek "other".  I think they are different skill sets. Remember, he was Pope's agent, not Mira's. 

But I totally agree he should learn the f*ck how to cook.  Preferably Emily's favorite dishes.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Howard Prime has been a covert agent, a Prime operative in the Alpha world, but he's never had to be undercover as his meek "other".  I think they are different skill sets. Remember, he was Pope's agent, not Mira's. 

But I totally agree he should learn the f*ck how to cook.  Preferably Emily's favorite dishes.

Maybe we're supposed to see how the Yanek Method (of training Howard Prime to disdain his Other) makes him a terrible stand-in for Alpha Howard? IDK—is Howard Prime a Yanek graduate?

Anyway, we are seeing the results of Howard Prime having skipped Mira's finishing school—you know, the one that teaches you how to finish off your Other and then take their place.

Or maybe Howard Prime is just starting to unravel/disassociate—with his cultivated meanness and aggression taking over to the point of blowing his cover and assuring self destruction.

Edited January 9, 2019 by shapeshifter

[tennisgurl]

It would be hilarious if what finally blew Howard Primes cover was making Emily some shitty pasta or something. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 1/6/2019 at 7:57 AM, mxc90 said:

Wonder why he gave up that life to go over there and which management brought him over?

 

Presumably Prime Management, since that's who Yorke (Mysterious Guy) represents. Assuming it wasn't both.

I had a feeling Yanek was Mira's father as soon as they were facing each other.

On 1/8/2019 at 9:21 AM, WaltersHair said:

Hmm. I thought last season Mira had made it plain they were going to release the virus on Alpha? Or implied it?

No, not really. Just that they would make them pay, which could mean anything.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 1/6/2019 at 9:06 AM, shapeshifter said:

Really? I never thought he loved her. Or were you being sarcastic? I thought Peter appreciated marrying the daughter of a VIP who could further his career and that her beauty was just icing on the cake [and then later just kept her secret to protect himself].*

 

My first guess would be that the Lambert in this episode was only into guys, whereas his other was bisexual.
My second guess would be that Clare deliberately only targeted one of the Lamberts with her wiles--but how would she ever tell them apart, especially when they were always in cahoots with one another? 
So, inclined to go with first guess.
Still, why even have Lambert say that?
Third guess: Maybe Lambert was lying and really loved her too and was protecting her with the comment.
Fourth guess: Neither Lambert "loved" her. This fits with what we've seen, IIRC. Lambert was lying to protect her, but lying to protect "the cause" and her role in it rather than to protect her out of "love."

I didn't use to think that Peter loved Clare, but then in this episode I got the idea that he did, both from Lambert saying it and from Peter saying it on the phone.

Lambert Prime, the one who didn't have a crush on Clare, was the one having sex with the female prostitute while Lambert Alpha watched. So, I'd say they're both bisexual, Prime just wasn't into Clare. I don't think Lambert Alpha loved Clare, either, and Lambert Prime didn't word it that way; he just had a thing for her.

On 1/6/2019 at 9:52 AM, mxc90 said:

He is alive. In the first episode, he made a brief appearance at Clare's/Peter's apartment for dinner. I don't think we've seen him since.

Fancher was also with Clare and Spencer in the playground in the first episode.

On 1/6/2019 at 11:43 PM, WaltersHair said:

I also wonder if Management is comprised of Singles without counterparts.

I got the impression from Yanek's story and from Juma, who we know was a member of Management, 's familiarity with Mira that Management was composed of the people responsible for the Crossing and that Alpha Management and Prime Management are each other's counterparts.

On 1/7/2019 at 8:36 AM, Coxfires said:

Alpha is our world and Prime the other. This comes from mathematics where the alpha value is the original one and prime is the derived value (derivations and integrals,  ah the memories, all nighters for partials...).

Thanks, I hadn't known that about the significance of the two terms! I thought they had just chosen two words that both mean "Number One" so that both worlds had equal stature.

On 1/7/2019 at 9:08 PM, Quilt Fairy said:

That's what it said when they gave the next episode preview and Starz should know what its own schedule is.  There must be something big airing next Sunday night, but I don't know what it is.

Nope, the digital guide on the TV shows it's just a new episode of Outlander followed by a repeat episode of Outlander.

On 1/8/2019 at 7:02 PM, Coxfires said:

Last season when he was named responsible for the Mole search it sounded like Management deliberately put him there but then they hire Naya to uncover him?

They hired Naya to uncover moles, not Peter specifically; they don't know he's compromised (as evidenced by their putting him in charge) or who the moles are. Naya's onto him only because the evidence pointed her there and his behavior made her suspicious. Management put Peter in charge because he was the only one to emphasize the seriousness of finding out what Baldwin was there for, back when Diplomacy took over.

On 1/9/2019 at 6:14 AM, shapeshifter said:

Anyway, we are seeing the results of Howard Prime having skipped Mira's finishing school—you know, the one that teaches you how to finish off your Other and then take their place.

Hahahaha!

[Coxfires]

50 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

They hired Naya to uncover moles, not Peter specifically; they don't know he's compromised (as evidenced by their putting him in charge)

That is where I am not sure that they did not know he was compromised. I mean Management is pretty elusive and I wonder how much they know. I assumed Peter Prime being in Echo was because Prime Management was monitoring him to get Intel from his Alpha, and as we don't know if there is one or two management I thought what was going on with both Peters was known. To sum up, I didn't think management was stupid enough To not know alpha Peter was compromised but that is just me assuming indeed

[Noneofyourbusiness]

16 minutes ago, Coxfires said:

That is where I am not sure that they did not know he was compromised. I mean Management is pretty elusive and I wonder how much they know. I assumed Peter Prime being in Echo was because Prime Management was monitoring him to get Intel from his Alpha, and as we don't know if there is one or two management I thought what was going on with both Peters was known. To sum up, I didn't think management was stupid enough To not know alpha Peter was compromised but that is just me assuming indeed

If they knew about Clare and Peter, they'd have been able to prevent the whole crisis, though. And if there are not two Managements who have their own agendas and communicate only certain facts to each other through messengers that go through the Crossing, they're doing a good job of making it seem like it. Prime Management says they cannot take responsibility for the attack. Alpha Management wants Prime Management to take responsibility and shuts down the Crossing.

At the end of "Inside Out", Alpha Management even referred to what they had been told by Prime Management years ago about Mira being dead. "It was never proven." "You think they kept it from us?" "We have to reach out" ("They" would be Prime Management, "We" would be Alpha Management). After which, the Crossing was briefly opened by the Alpha side in "Outside In", Alpha made the offer to reopen relations in exchange for Mira, and Prime Management tasked Emily through Yorke to hunt her down.

Peter Alpha is being monitored to get intel about his Alpha, yes. Because his Alpha is a Director, and was a rising star on the Director track before that.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Quilt Fairy]

3 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Nope, the digital guide on the TV shows it's just a new episode of Outlander followed by a repeat episode of Outlander.

When I said there must be something big on TV that night, I didn't necessarily mean on Starz.  I meant something big on a different channel (like the Superbowl or the Oscars, although obviously it's neither of those) so that they wouldn't want to waste a new episode when no one would watch.  Although if they're airing a new episode of Outlander, my theory goes down the drain.  Maybe they're doing it just because we're at the half-way point of the season. :(

I find it hard to trust Naya, mostly because I learned not to trust anyone on this show.  I know she's supposed to be from the outside and uncompromised, but that seems like a really convenient plot contrivance.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

When I said there must be something big on TV that night, I didn't necessarily mean on Starz.  I meant something big on a different channel (like the Superbowl or the Oscars, although obviously it's neither of those) so that they wouldn't want to waste a new episode when no one would watch.  Although if they're airing a new episode of Outlander, my theory goes down the drain.  Maybe they're doing it just because we're at the half-way point of the season. :(

There is the Critics' Choice Awards, so maybe that's it.

 

5 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I find it hard to trust Naya, mostly because I learned not to trust anyone on this show.  I know she's supposed to be from the outside and uncompromised, but that seems like a really convenient plot contrivance.

I've been assuming Naya is pretty straightforward. Maybe since Alpha Howard killed someone this episode after being so determined not to get brainwashed into responding with violence even when he was seemingly being beaten to death, now  Naya might serve as some sort of point of Common Sense Reality to Alpha Howard since she doesn't have all of the emotional baggage due to personal trauma (that we know of) that the Emilys have. Naya would sort of be Howard's Jimminy Cricket ("let your conscience be your guide")—although that doesn't mean that Howard will necessarily have a happy Pinocchio ending and become a real boy.

Or Naya may just continue as a sort of audience point of view.

Edited January 12, 2019 by shapeshifter