Last Tango In Halifax - General Discussion

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Caroline: Uh, you won't like this, but me and Kate, we're going - well, we're going to have -
Celia: A bath?
Caroline: No. 
Celia: A party? 
Caroline: No.
Celia: A fortnight in the Bellonas?
Caroline: We're going to get married.

Celia: What will it call you when it arrives, the baby? Will you be its dad?
Caroline: No, I'll be its mum. It'll have two mums. 
Celia: Won't it get confused? 
Caroline: No.
Celia: A child needs a father.
Caroline: Mum, gay couples bring up children all the time. It's perfectly normal.
Celia: No, it's not normal, is it? That's not the right word.
Caroline: It's becoming increasingly normal. It'll have two very responsible, mature, loving parents and that's all that matters.
Celia: But no dad.
Caroline: No dad. What the hell is so fantastic about dads? Look at my dad. Look at John. They're a liability.

Celia: I thought you were in a rut.
Caroline: Yeah, but you do know that's all bollocks, don't you? I was born this way, to quote Lady Gaga.
Celia: Oh, I like Lady Gaga.
Caroline: Do you?
Celia: Mmm, she's nuts.
Caroline: I'm going now. She reckons to be a lesbian.
Celia: I bet she isn't, no more than you are.

Lawrence: What if Seb's parents decide to kick up a fuss about you being-
Caroline: Oh, they'd be very misguided and stupid to try anything like that. I'm a good head teacher. My private life has got nothing to do with the quality of my work.
Lawrence: Well, you know, they gave birth to Seb, so they probably are very stupid.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'm sad in theory that Judith lost the baby, in reality I think we all know that Judith and John raising a baby together would have been a disaster. When John was talking about how precious life is and held Lawrence's hand, the panicked look that Lawrence gave Caroline was hilarious. Seeing as how this show is turning into a total soap opera, I hope that Judith losing the baby doesn't lead to her trying to kidnap Kate's baby.

I take no pleasure in seeing that my suspicion about Celia was correct. Last season she claimed she had fixed everything up but now she's back to making snide comments about her daughter's sexuality and the baby not having a father. Ugh. And of course she sees herself as so open minded.

Poor Gillian. She's in a terrible position keeping this secret. I hope that Alan just tells Celia because it's not fair to Gillian to have to be the secret keeper. I don't blame her for being so defensive when Gary told her that he thought Alan was his father. Alan doesn't seem the type to cheat and Gillian had no reason to think he had, so her initial reaction was totally normal. But once Alan admitted to his affair, she was pretty nice to Gary. Even though I feel like this whole storyline was just created to add more drama, I like that Gillian has a brother now. It seems like she is really on her own these days, so I hope that Gary will be a good friend and brother to her.

I rolled my eyes when Alan got all indignant about the fact that Gillian had talked to Caroline about Gary. She's allowed to bounce ideas off someone else before deciding how to approach her dad about possibly having another son. And Alan has no leg to stand on since he's the one who blabbed to Celia about Gillian's abortion in the first place. See how that works, everyone? You don't like it when other people tell your secrets so maybe you shouldn't tell other people's secrets!

Gillian definitely gets an A+ for her time management skills. She manages the entire farm on her own, works at the grocery store, babysits Calamity, makes meals for Raff and Ellie, and still has time to deal with all of her crazy family members.

Edited December 7, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

While I fully approve of how much Celia dislikes John for being a terrible husband (and just a terrible person), I had to roll my eyes when she said that Caroline is too nice to him considering what he's done and that if it happened to Celia, she'd never let him darken her doorstep again. Really, Celia? This coming from the woman who stayed with her cheating husband until he died? It's so easy to say what you would do when you're not actually in that situation.

Similarly, it's so easy for Alan to say that Gary's mother should have told him she was pregnant so he could have done the right thing. What would he really have done in 1966? Supported both families financially? Confessed his infidelity to Eileen? Divorced Eileen to marry Mary? Pretended to be a family friend so he could see Gary?

I agree with Celia though - Caroline IS too nice to John. I can't believe she let that idiot move back into the house. He's such a drama queen. He couldn't just be quiet during childbirth class. He had to tell everyone that he's not the father of the baby and that Kate is his wife's girlfriend. Ugh.

I can't blame Kate for not wanting John at the hospital when she has the baby. I wouldn't want him near me during low stress things like unpacking the groceries. I definitely wouldn't want him around during high stress situations.

Poor Gillian. I know that Raff and Alan weren't trying to insult her or put her down while they were telling Ellie she couldn't just quit school and work at the grocery store, but it definitely hurt her feelings.

I hate that Alan's affair is being chalked up to "I married Eileen on the rebound and then I met this woman who reminded me of Celia and I just couldn't help myself!"

As much as I complain about Celia, I loved that she could see something was bothering Alan and told him, "You can tell me anything. Nothing's worth making yourself ill over. Just tell me."

I totally understand why she was upset. It's not just the cheating but the lying and deception. But I was so annoyed when Alan said that Gillian was upset too and Celia said, "But not above colluding with you." Bitch, please. You KNOW that Gillian's loyalty is always going to be with her father. Don't try to pretend that Gillian is culpable in any way or that she should have told you instead of letting Alan do it. And if the shoe was on the other foot, Celia would be livid if Caroline spilled one of Celia's secrets to Alan. But it's just so typical Celia that she thinks everything revolves around her.

I'm glad that Caroline pointed out that when you haven't seen someone for 60 years, there are going to be things about them that you don't know. I also loved that she straight up told Celia that this secret son isn't really about her. Celia says that she doesn't want to be small minded, but she doesn't make much of an effort NOT to be small minded.

I don't blame Cheryl for being upset that Robbie was cheating on her, but confronting Gillian about it at work was really low. She wanted revenge so badly that she bought an expensive vibrator just to humiliate Gillian. How much do you want to bet that she didn't do the same to Robbie at their place of work? I'm not saying that Gillian is blameless, but Robbie is the one who was supposed to be in a committed monogamous relationship with Cheryl yet Gillian is the one humiliated at work in front of her boss and random people. Ellie gets points for dealing with it so well.

Celia is officially THE WORST. First she projects all of her anger at Kenneth onto Alan, despite the fact that Alan did not cheat on her. Next she uses her anger at Alan as an excuse not to attend Caroline's wedding (sorry, "wedding), even after Caroline begs her to come and tells her how hurt she was when Celia didn't come to her graduation. Then to add insult to injury, she blithely tells Lawrence that he doesn't have to go to the wedding either. For fuck's sake, Celia! She is such so selfish, mean, and sour.

Angus, on the other hand, gets a high five from me. Sure, he initially said he would go to the wedding because he had nothing better to do, but it was so cute when he showed up with balloons.

Edited December 7, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Celia: Why are we whispering? Is it a secret?

Caroline: You know, when you haven't seen someone for 60 years, there will be things about them you don't know.

Gillian: For me, this is win-win.
Alan: So you lost your job.
Gillian: No, I I resigned.
Alan: How is it win-win?
Gillian: I get time off and I don't have to listen to that jackass telling me what to do any more.
Alan: Oh, you pillock.

Alan: We're not going to parade all this in front of Gary, are we?
Gillian: What, all our dirty linen?
Raff: Oh, hell, no. We don't want him thinking any of us have sex, do we? Eh, Grandad?

Raff: Where the hell are we? 
Ellie: We're lost. 
Raff: I think it looks dead creepy. 
Ellie: So do I. God, this is dank.
Alan: I'm wondering if that was a wrong turn. That first one we took way back when we came off main road.
Gillian: Oh, now he says it! Shit. What was that?
Alan: Oh, we're all right. Keep going. The worst thing that can happen is we'll end up in Slaithwaite. 
Ellie: It's like we're in The Rocky Horror Picture Show. 
Raff: Yeah. Do you think Uncle Gary's a transvestite, Mum? From Transsexual Transylvania? 
Ellie: Hey, there's a light. 
Raff: Eh? Where? 
Ellie: Over at the Frankenstein place.

Kate: Have you chosen a poem?
Caroline: I might have.
Kate: I don't want to be the only one reading out a poem. 
Caroline: I might have written one. 
Kate: Have you? 
Caroline: Might have.
Kate: No, have you?
Caroline: My love is like a hot water bottle.
Kate: That's so flattering, Caroline.
Caroline: My love is like a thermal vest.
Kate: God, you've really missed your metier, haven't you?
Caroline: Shall I compare thee to my Jeep Cherokee?
Kate: Go on, then.
Caroline: Thou art more-
Kate: Built like a tank and guzzles diesel like it's going out of fashion?
Caroline: Yeah, okay. I've not thought that one through.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Celia continues to be the worst. She chose to be petty and selfish and not attend her daughter's wedding and then she has the gall to complain that Caroline isn't speaking to her? FFS. This is just further proof that Celia loves to play the victim to get sympathy from people. I was not at all surprised that Celia complained because Caroline didn't tell people that Celia was sick or make up some other excuse to explain why she wasn't at the wedding. Why is it Caroline's job to hide the fact that you're a bratty bitch who refused to attend her own daughter's wedding?

Tied with Celia is John who just keeps inserting himself into Gillian's life and then digging around for more family gossip. At least she was smart enough to know that being with John is a terrible idea. I don't know why John is so obsessed with her. That's not a knock on Gillian either. I just mean that John barely knows her. The little that he does know about her includes that she killed her husband. I think part of him wants her because he is totally adrift without a woman in his life (as seen by the way he went back to Judith). Part of him wants to stay close to her so that he can write his next book (apparently he has no imagination so he needs to mine other people's lives to have enough material for a whole book now). I think part of him also knows that being with him serves dual purposes: it allows him continued access to this extended family and it also causes friction within this extended family, both of which he loves having.

Kate's car accident was telegraphed very clearly by the huge anvils. It's soap opera 101. If a woman vomits, she's pregnant. If someone coughs, they have a terminal illness. If someone makes a big deal about taking a different car, there's going to be some kind of accident.

On 7/17/2015 at 4:15 PM, kassygreene said:

I seem to recall that Kate was 42, had been married, and had a history of miscarriages.  And her mother was working in NYC, which is not a cheap last minute flight, and quite possibly something more extended was planned for after the baby was born.

I'm 99% sure that in the previous episode when Celia said that Kate's mom wasn't coming to the wedding (to justify her own absence), Caroline said that Kate's mom was coming to stay with them for the whole summer.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Gillian: I don't like being dependent on people.
Robbie: I know that, Gillian. It isn't about being dependent. It's about sharing everything. Pooling our resources and, yeah, being equal. Partners.

Angus: Where the hell were you, penis head? Hi, Granny!

John: A woman like you shouldn't have to work at a checkout.
Gillian: There's nothing wrong with working at a checkout. If people didn't work at checkouts, snobby piss-heads like you who wouldn't have anyone to buy their Rioja off.
John: This is undoubtably true.
Gillian: In fact, people like you only exist to keep the checkout assistant amused. Did you not know that? Paying £14. 99 la-di-da for something a French paysan wouldn't chuck over a casserole.

Celia: Are you speaking to me?
Caroline: Have I got anything to say to you?
Celia: How did it go?
Caroline: It, um, well, it doesn't really matter how it went, does it?
Celia: Oh, don't be like that.
Caroline: What do you want?
Celia: Just to say I hope it all went off all right. It isn't that I don't wish you both well, I do. I just, you know, with Alan and all that business going on I just, I found it difficult.
Caroline: Everyone asked where you were. Everyone wanted to meet you.
Celia: Who's everyone?
Caroline: Our colleagues, my friends from Oxford. Few people wanted to pop round and say hello, but we didn't know what sort of a reception they'd get, so -
Celia: Oh, they should have done.
Caroline: We advised them not to.
Celia: Well, what did you say?
Caroline: That you're rather narrow-minded and you didn't want to be a part of what was going on.
Celia: Why did you say that? Why? Well, what did they say?
Caroline: Nothing! What do you expect people to say when they hear something like that? 
Celia: Well, you could have said I was ill. 
Caroline: Yes, I could. But it wouldn't have been true, would it?

Alan: How's Caroline?
Celia: Oh, she's not speaking to me.
Alan: No? And do you wonder?
Celia: I would have been at that wedding if none of this had happened.
Alan: You were wrong to take it out on Caroline.
Celia: I was upset!
Alan: Oh, yes, I think we all got that, Celia! Loud and clear!
Celia: I want to move on. And I don't want to fall out with you.
Alan: You're your own worst enemy.
Celia: I can't help how I am.

[Emily Thrace]

On 7/13/2015 at 9:17 AM, attica said:

Dramatic economy aside, Gillian is exactly the kind of woman that kind of man wants to 'seal the deal' with. Open-hearted, hard-working, long-suffering. Although they each frame the proposals as wanting to provide for her, what they want is the kind of emotional caretaking of themselves that she represents. She'll soothe their brows, buck them up, and run interference for them. Even Gary, a successful guy, used Gillian as his entree into the family. This is why she's such a screw up, I think. She's socialized (as are many, many women) to do all the emotional work of everybody in the household, but she doesn't want to. Her little rebellions run hard up against her inculcation, so she can't really commit to setting boundaries or telling people off in the ways they deserve. She ends up making an ass of herself and, as she put it, chipping away her personality bit by bit. (The drinking self-medicates, but it doesn't help.)

I don't think Gillian is someone who hates or resents doing emotional labour, I think she probably actually happiest when taking care of someone else.   I feel like sleeping with John is more like self sabotage then rebellion. Due to her abusive history she has a bit of impulse control issues. A lot of women after being tightly controlled by a partner go a bit to the other extreme and sort of run wild. I always felt Gillian's sleeping around was her way of reclaiming her autonomy and body after what her ex put her through. I think with this go round with John though was more about being wary of Robbie's proposal and wanting screw it up in someway.  Both because her self esteem issues say she doesn't deserve him and he's going to leave anyway but also because domesticity and marriage are terrifying for someone with her history.  Even if she knows logically that Robbie is not his brother and would never hurt her part of her still has PTSD and is terrified at the thought of being married. I do think Robbie knows her though and could be good for her. He's calm and patient  and really seems to love her even when she in a full on rant. That secret between them is a doozie though.

 

On 7/12/2015 at 10:39 PM, Starchild said:

The writer said she couldn't think of another way to bring Celia and Caroline back together, if you can believe it.

Why not just have the baby have some kind of health crisis? That would have given Celia a chance to really recognize what Kate and the baby meant to Caroline and that they are a family.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Ginika: That's the father. Don't look.
Celia: Which one?
Ginika: Pudgy, pale, face-hair, 12 o'clock. Keeps looking this way. He used to be called Greg, probably still is. He's an idiot.
Celia: They often are. And here's another one. John.

Ginika: You don't like [John]. I didn't like Kate's husband, Richard. My mother didn't like my first husband, Douglas, the one with Alzheimer's. Maybe it's normal. Maybe it's a thing.

Alan: Oh, shit. 
Celia: Are you smoking?
Alan: Hmm?
Celia: You were smoking. 
Alan: I wasn't.
Celia: Why else would you be standing out here in the drizzle?
Alan: I just-
Celia: Did you know, he has a heart condition?
Alan: This is Chris.
Chris: Hi.
Celia: You'd think a mathematician would know better.

Caroline: He's 76, if he can't have one single tiny cigarette without being made to feel like a six year-old.
Celia: We'll find he's been spying for the Russians, next.
Caroline: Well, we all have our shortcomings, haven't we? He smokes, you read the Daily Mail.
Alan: I don't smoke!
Celia: Only for the telly page. Of course, you're perfect, aren't you? 
Caroline: Ish.

Raff: Gary says why haven't you rang him? 
Gillian: Rung him.
Raff: That's what I said.

Caroline: There's John, the ex. You have met John several times. He was the one who was going on about Rudyard Kipling the other day when I was trying to have a nervous breakdown. He's an idiot. Well, he's not an idiot. He's just someone who never got the hang of being one of the grown-ups.

Lawrence: She's talking to herself.
William: She's talking to the baby, you nob.
Celia: Is that the sort of language that they teach you at Oxford?
William: Well, he is a nob. 
Lawrence: You're a nob.

Lawrence: Who's its father? 
Celia: He was here yesterday. 
William: Which one?
Celia: Tall, pasty faced, gingerish, got a bit of a beard thing going on.  Gavin, Gareth, Gilbert.
William: Gandalf?
Celia: Greg, it's Greg.

Raff: What confuses me though, Mother, if I'm being 
Ellie: Disingenuous. 
Raff: Honest. What does that mean?

Gary: He's such a nice lad.
Gillian: He can be when he's not being a cocky little dick.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Poor Caroline. That scene before the funeral where she was imagining talking to Kate about what to name the baby was just heartbreaking.

I don't understand why Caroline would even consider asking John to help watch Flora. The last thing she needs is to give John another reason to hang about and get entangled in her life. I mean, yes, technically he's free childcare but you can't put a price on how annoying he is.

And then poor Gillian has to manage Gary's feelings about Alan and feeling ignored. I had a friend who had a similar attitude. She would never call any of us but then she would complain to everyone that we never called her. I got fed up with it one day and said, "Is your phone broken? If it still works, then just CALL ME when you want to talk to me instead of waiting for me to call you and then getting upset that I didn't!" Gary seriously doesn't get that the family has had a wedding, a death, a birth, a funeral, and an engagement all in the space of two weeks? Ugh. I already didn't like when he yelled, "Can I get some tea?" as soon as he walked into the cafe, but then he got all agitated again later. Calm down, man.

As much as I loathe Celia's attitude 99% of the time, I thought she was very supportive in Caroline's bedroom so I appreciated that she was able to be there for her and give her some comfort and love.

The new nanny seems a bit much. I don't know if she's just nervous or what but, man.

[Quilt Fairy]

I've just had the 2016 Christmas special pop up on my PBS listings for next Sunday, 12/17.  Fellow Americans may want to check their local PBS listings. 

[Quilt Fairy]

I've just had the 2016 Christmas special pop up on my PBS listings for next Sunday, 12/17.  Fellow Americans may want to check their local PBS listings. 

Also posted in the media thread because I think some people will see the "Unaired USA" label on this thread and (rightly) assume it may contain spoilers.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Quilt Fairy

[kassygreene]

It's part 1 on Dec 17; part 2 will be Dec 24.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Caroline: Do you remember home economics?
Gillian: No, we did domestic science. 
Caroline: Ah, well, it's food tech now.

Caroline: Okay, so we're making Cornish pasties [in home ec class]. Cornish pasties, why? Just buy them.

Caroline: I can't believe that my mother has gone to a football match.
Gillian: No. No. No.
Celia: Oh, it was interminable! We thought we were going to pass out, didn't we, Alan?
Alan: I can think of other ways of spending a Saturday afternoon, champagne or no champagne.
Celia: And course we had to pretend we'd never had so much fun! It wouldn't have been so bad if one of them had scored. 
Alan: I've had more fun at the dentist. 
Celia: But they didn't. And Gary was thrilled. Apparently to them nil-nil is a good outcome. I said, "How?" I wished I hadn't, because he explained. 
Alan: And that took another three weeks.

Caroline: I don't think you do think, do you? I think you just let words spill out of your mouth and onto the floor and see if anyone's stupid enough to pick them up.

John: I just wanted to say, bit ironic now I've got the flat sorted out, but it was just to say that we had a great day, me and Lawrence, it was nice, he was happy, we enjoyed each other's company, and . . is there an argument? Bear with me. Is there an argument for you and me . . getting back together?
Carolilne: No.
John: Fair enough, I just thought it was worth suggesting. Asking. Seeing what you - well, anyway, I've put the idea out there. Perhaps it's something to dwell on. 
Caroline: Sorry, hang on, wait a minute. It's six weeks tomorrow that Kate died. It's less than six weeks since Kate died. Are you seriously asking me that question? God, you're like something out of a joke book.
John: It was just an idea. For Lawrence and, well, for Laura. Flora! 
Caroline: Do you seriously think?
John: You were the one who asked me if I'd help out the other day. Surely having two parents.
Caroline: I'm a lesbian. I like sleeping with other women, I always did. And this is after you've been trying so blatantly to get inside Gillian's knickers! Again.

Celia: I'm surprised [Petra] can balance with knockers that size. I'm surprised she doesn't just fall over.

Greg: I love making bread. I used to be rubbish at it, but it's one of those things you're going to be rubbish at it when you start. Why wouldn't you be? It's about persevering, it's about passion, it's about obsession. I reckon by the time I'm 90, it won't just be perfect, it'll be consistently perfect. Do I sound like a right wanker?

Caroline: Are those chrysanthemums? Eighteen years I was married to that man, and he still doesn't know I can't stand the smell of chrysanthemums.
Greg: Men.

Caroline: Eighteen years! Eighteen fucking years!
John: Caroline! Caroline! Stop it, Caroline! The boys are in tears. They don't know what's going on!
Caroline: Oh, well, shall we tell them? Do you want to tell them or shall I?
John: I think you're becoming hysterical. No, really, I think you are actually becoming-
Caroline: Daddy has been having it off with somebody else, boys!
John: That's, that's, that's just irresponsible.
Caroline: Despite having a beautiful home, two wonderful children and a pretty damned fantastic WIFE, Daddy has been putting it about elsewhere!
John: That's-
Caroline: What? What? What is it? Are you embarrassed? Embarrassed? You shit! YOU SHIT!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Loved the Pulp Fiction opening! I mean, I know what they did was definitely against the rules, but seeing it on my screen (as opposed to in real life) made me laugh. Gillian's previous "We cool, Vincent?" Pulp Fiction reference with Caroline just made Lawrence's stunt that much funnier to me.

I really loved the scene of Caroline and Gillian sitting in the kitchen peeling potatoes with Calamity and Flora in the background. I am really enjoying their growing friendship. Unfortunately, the specter of Dead Eddie spoiled everything again. I don't blame Caroline for her attitude about it. I just wish they hadn't introduced this stupid storyline to begin with.

Usually Celia annoys me, but I was with her and Alan when they said they were bored at Gary's football match. I'm sure everyone who has kids (or nieces/nephews) has been in that situation where you're trying to be supportive of someone's activities but you are dying to leave because you are so uninterested in what's happening. I have two sisters and my poor dad sat through more dance recitals than I'm sure he ever wanted to attend.

I think Alan is being overly sensitive about Gary introducing him as his real dad. And how does Alan think Gary should introduce him to his friends and teammates? "Here's this old guy who's, uh, totally not my dad but just wanted to come watch my football match." Gary is sketchy to me in many ways, but I think he's genuinely happy knowing that Alan is his biological dad and he's proud of being able to introduce him to people that way.

John is still an ass, but it was nice of him to buy noise canceling headphones for Lawrence since the baby's crying has been keeping him awake at night. But gawd, then he had to go and be an absolute idiot again. It's been six weeks since Kate died and he's asking Caroline if they can get back together. UGH. He's such a moron.

I get Gary offering to pay for Gillian's wedding, but I also understand why Gillian didn't want to accept it. The most important thing is that they both need to try to understand the other person's point of view which would hopefully get both of them to be less offended by the other. What really annoyed me is that Gillian made it clear to Gary, Robbie, and Raff that she wasn't comfortable accepting his offer and no one wanted to accept that she was saying no. As far as I'm concerned, the only other person who should have any input into letting Gary pay for the wedding is Robbie because it's his wedding too, but the fact that Gary is her brother trumps that. In my opinion, she is the only one who should get to say yes or not to Gary's offer.

One of my pet peeves is when one person is on the phone and someone else else in the room tries talking to them. Whatever it is, IT CAN WAIT. Celia's not the only one who does it, but I was SO annoyed when she kept doing it while Alan was on the phone with Gary.

The sight of three police officers trying to get Flora to stop crying was so sweet and hilarious. I also loved Celia and Alan singing "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend" to Flora later.

When Greg arrived, I thought the delighted look on Lawrence's face was because he was hoping Greg was there to take Flora away. I was so excited for John to find out about Greg. Their meeting was all the awkwardness I'd hoped for.

I just wish Celia hadn't spilled the beans about Greg being Flora's father. I would have enjoyed John squirming a lot longer, driving himself crazy while he imagined Caroline falling in love with Greg.

Listening to John try to justify his affair with Judith was so gross. Really? You were "trying to cool things off before things even started" which was after you'd had sex with Judith for almost five months? Why does anyone put up with John? Why did Celia invite him in? Why did Alan listen to him and keep asking him questions? Shut the door and ignore him.

John is such a narcissist. He really believes that he's the victim in the situation. He truly believes the lies that he tells other people. He was so indignant when he accused Caroline of being hysterical and didn't want her telling the kids that he had cheated on her. If you didn't want your kids to know that you cheated on your wife, you shouldn't have fucked your coworker for five months.

I don't care that Caroline kicked him out (versus him leaving Caroline for Judith). That knowledge doesn't make him any more sympathetic to me. Kicking out a cheating spouse is something I can respect (as opposed to saying, "Oh, okay," and letting him stay). And so what if she kicked his cheating ass out? That's what he deserved for having an affair for five months.

Now I can't wait for John to find out about Greg's career. He will be simultaneously jealous (that he's successful) and dismissive (because Greg is a comic book author).

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Gary: That's interesting. It's rubbish, but it's interesting rubbish.

Gillian: Why do men giggle?
Ollie: Cause it's silly.
Gillian: What is?
Ollie: Sex.

Gillian: Okay, it wasn't just, uh, Ollie.
Caroline: Okay. Well, what else?
Gillian: John. John. It was John. And that was your fault. 
Caroline: My fault? 
Gillian: Indirectly. 
Caroline: Oh, I'm dying to hear this.

Gillian: It's because of this Gary business that we've ended up with this bloody silly big do that I never wanted. And I've got to go to Majorca for two weeks! 
Caroline: Life's just full of crap, isn't it?

John: [Gary]'s so . . gauche. He wears flip-flops. In my house.
Gillian: I thought they'd bought you out. The lesbians.
John: Yes, but one still has an attachment, obviously.

Greg: [Simon] writes the scripts and I do the illustrations. Yeah, we're very collaborative. I tell him what I think. He ignores me. It works quite well.

Greg: Look who it is! It's Uncle John! Although, you're kind of her half-stepdad. If Lawrence is her stepbrother. Are you? Aren't you?
John: I don't know.
Greg: Can you do that? Can you have a dad and a half-stepdad? Because you and Caroline are divorced, so I don't know what I'm talking about.

John: Isn't that like Watchmen? In the inversion on the villain monologuing cliche, where it turns out they've already done it.
Lawrence: Have you read Watchmen? When did you read Watchmen?
John: When it came out in the 80s.

Gillian: I get covered in crap every day, as a matter of course, and it's not that bad. Honestly. It's just horse shit, that. It's nice. It's friendly. It's good for you. They're not carnivorous, so, you know could be worse. It's just grass. It's It's grass and bacteria, really. You're a chemist.

Celia: Are you drinking too much, Robbie?
Robbie: I just want to get on with it, Celia. I've got a banging headache.
Celia: Well, Robbie, brandy's not going to cure that.

Celia: You can't put a price on avoiding deep vein thrombosis.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Awww, I loved the pre-wedding talk between Gillian and Caroline. They really are sisters now. Caroline was against Gillian marrying Robbie, but she was the one talking her down and gently guiding her toward getting on with the wedding. But then she also offered to turn the car around and call Robbie's best man to break the news.

I also had to laugh when the guests mistook Greg and John as Flora's parents. And the irony that John was such a moron about Catherine and Kate being lesbians, but he was acting like such an idiot with Greg that someone thought they were a couple.

Wow, Gillian really has a self destructive streak. She had sex with Ollie in the back of his van to get back at Robbie for calling her a twat. She had sex with John and blamed it on Caroline because John thought that Caroline was sleeping with Greg. I don't want to be judgmental, but common sense says that if you're going to cheat on your fiancé, at least sleep with people who aren't going to be at your wedding!

Despite this, John continues to be the more pathetic of the two. Obsessing about Caroline's relationship with Greg down to the minutest detail (he thought they were having sex but not sleeping in the same bedroom) is just absolutely pathetic. He doesn't even like Caroline but he's obsessed with who she might be having sex with because he has the mentality of a spoiled child.

And he's so mental that he believes the lies he tells, his rewriting of history. He blames all his troubles on Judith, which he describes as "one ridiculous mistake." I guess if you count five months of cheating on your wife as ONE mistake.

He's also so self centered that he thinks being friends with Gillian means that he gets to bitch and complain about Caroline and trying to get her back.

The way everyone is at least tangentially related, I was trying to remember who was actually blood related to make sure here wasn't going to be any incesty cousin loving when Lawrence started eyeing Gary's daughters, Matilda and Rowena.

Hmmm, you know things are out of whack when Celia, the pettiest grudge holder on the show, is being the voice of reason and telling Alan to get over it. Alan is starting to sound like John when he talks about Gary. He doesn't want to be reminded that he cheated on his wife, which is understandable, but the fact of the matter is that he DID cheat on his wife and Gary was born.

I wasn't crazy about the constant flashbacks. I also dislike that they want us to believe that Gillian kept ALL of this information from Caroline until the wedding day and then just kept blurting it out. It felt like a deliberate storytelling decision just so they could use this flashback format. It was kind of a relief to find out that what I thought were Gillian's self-destructive tendencies were her way of finding several different excuses to give Robbie to break off their engagement in case she realized that she couldn't go through with marrying him.

The way Robbie kept talking about how he didn't feel right, I was convinced he was going to drop dead throughout the episode. Puking at the altar was something I've never seen before.

Are we going to find out that Gary doesn't have as much money as the family thinks he does. Or maybe his wife was just upset that he'd spent over 50K on Alan's family in the space of a month.

For all her alleged poshness, Caroline took it pretty well showing up to the wedding covered in horse shit and limping along on a broken heel.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Celia: It's a state school!
Gillian: What, like where the ordinary people go?
Celia: I don't think it's in a very nice area.
Alan: How can you tell?
Raff: Omigawd. Crow Wood Park? That's where Adrian Bottomly got sent when they expelled him. It's where that science teacher got stabbed last year.
Celia, Alan, & Gillian: ...
Raff: He pulled through.

Catherine: I've always been lucky. My whole life I've been lucky.
Gillian: Being married to John all those years. Was that lucky?

Angus: Why are you dressed like James Bond?

Gillian: I'm thinking about becoming a lesbian.

Celia: That room we've been allocated.
Caroline: Allocated? No, mom, no one's been allocated anything. You CHOSE it the first time we looked round.

Celia: It's damp! I can't sleep in there with my chest.
Caroline: Your chest? What's wrong with your chest?
Celia: I had bronchitis when I was seventeen.

Robbie: Why don't you wear that dress?
Gillian: What dress?
Robbie: That green one.
Gillian: Because I'm wearing this.
Robbie: I like that green one.
Gillian: You wear it then.

Gillian: [Robbie]'s driving me up a wall.
Alan: He seems busy enough now.
Gillian: I have to keep setting him tasks. It's like having a six year old during school holidays, finding him activities so he's not under your feet.
Alan: Oh, he'll settle down. Takes a bit of getting used to, retirement. It's not as easy as people think, especially if you've been very active.
Gillian: Active? He spent the last ten years sitting in a patrol car eating pies.

Celia: At least your father wasn't a lesbian.

Olga: You're a really easy person to like to begin with but then it becomes like quite hard work.

Edited December 15, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I wish someone would tell John that there are more women in the world besides Caroline, Gillian, and Judith. Is he simply too lazy to put the effort into finding someone else who's willing to shag him?

Celia is back to being the same self absorbed pain in the ass I remember. Only a brat would sit in the car and sulk because Caroline wouldn't go inside to rehearsal with her. Celia, you're not a five year old so you're not actually supposed to bring someone with you to rehearsal.

I was pleasantly surprised that Caroline was so unconcerned about moving into that fixer upper after living in that large modern house. I had to laugh while rolling my eyes when Celia was going on and on about how damp the new house was and then insisted that she couldn't sleep there because she had bronchitis when she was 17. How Caroline puts up with her dramatics I have no idea.

Lawrence is an idiot. If he wants to get up at 5am and sit on a bus for two hours to get to school then he can get a bike and get himself to the bus station. If he doesn't want to do that, then he can just stay at Judith and John's place. The end.

To be honest, I have no interest in Celia's "I'm going to be in a play!" storyline, and I'm even less interested in her peer pressuring Alan into taking a part. It's all a little too sitcomy for me. Same goes for the ghost in the barn AND the ghost in the new house plots.

My favorite thing about Olga was the explanation for her name. Olga Korbut was before my time but even I know about her! I thought it was rude of Olga to just barge in, make herself at home, and essentially expose her relationship with Caroline to the entire family when Caroline had made it clear that she had no interest in any of that.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Celia: These are sophisticated people. They live in Kent, for goodness' sake.

Lawrence: We'll be off out in his jalopy as soon as [Angus] gets here.
Celia: Oh, that'll make your mother happy. You and Angus the nitwit taking hairpin bends at breakneck speed across the moors in a car with no brakes.

Celia: Where did [Angus] get a ouija board from? 
Lawrence: Amazon.

Ellie: Well, it would help if one-third of the women's team wasn't babies, and the other third weren't outside having a fag, or whatever it is they think they're doing.

Alan: You don't fancy doing this play instead of me, do you? Playing this Dr. Bradman fellow?
Harry: Me? 
Alan: Yeah. 
Harry: I can't act any more than you can.
Alan: Well, I don't think that matters, as such.

Alan: I keep having nightmares. We're standing in the wings and I'm in costume and I'm just about to step on stage and, God knows why, it's only then I realise I've never actually sat down and learned the lines. None of them.
Harry: Ooh, shit.
Alan: I know. I've had it three times now.
Harry: You only got the part two days ago.
Alan: Yeah, but I have naps.

Celia: Harry?! 
Alan: Yeah He'll be better than me. 
Celia: He'll muck it up!
Alan: No, he won't. 
Celia: He'll do it daft. 
Alan: He's got some very interesting ideas. 
Celia: I bet!
Alan: I think he'll put his heart and soul into it. 
Celia: He doesn't look like a doctor. 
Alan: Well, neither do I.
Celia: Yes, you do. You look distinguished. 
Alan: So does he!
Celia: Does he buggery!
Alan: Anyway, what do doctors look like? They're just people. They come in all physiognomies.
Celia: He's got a beard. 
Alan: Freud had a beard. 
Celia: Yeah, and he was a pillock. Sex, sex, sex.

Celia: I'm sick of Harry! 
Caroline: No, you're not. 
Celia: Yes, I fucking am! 
Caroline: Oh, Mum! 
Celia: Well, if you can't say the F-word when you're pissed off at my age, when can you say it? Oh, [Flora]'s not listening. She's not bothered. Anyway, you like hearing your granny swear, don't you? She finds it liberating and uplifting, don't you, chicken?

Celia: Are you a man or a mouse? Go on, get up on the stage, be the mouse that roared. Cry havoc! For England and Boy George What's that quotation?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I wasn't crazy about the play or ghost plots in part one. The payoff for the play was okay, but I don't know that it was worth all the time we had to spend on it.

I knew it was just a matter of time before Gillian confessed to Robbie so in a way, I'm glad that it finally happened (and before they could add another twist to that entire storyline, like Gillian drugged his food so that he would be out of it when he stumbled to the barn so that it would be easier for her to kill him). I was not a fan of the way they kept adding more sinister details to the circumstances of Eddie's death, but it did give us that moment after Robbie said he wasn't going to take her to the police station where Gillian looked disappointed that she wasn't going to be punished for what she did. Although I haven't always liked the choices that Gillian made, Nicola Walker did a great job playing her.

I wish we'd spent less time on the play stuff so that they could have mentioned things like whether Raff is going to Leeds and if he married Ellie. I'm glad Gary was not present. I understand the purpose of that plot last season, but it's not something I wanted to spend a lot of time on for a two episode Christmas special. Thank goodness we got very little John too. His character is a waste of time for me.

Although ouija board scenes are very predictable on tv and in movies, I still enjoyed this one. It was an interesting mix of characters participating (Judith being into it, Greg being freaked out, Celia taking it very seriously).

The last scene definitely had the feeling of a finale. I wish we'd heard a little bit about Celia and Alan's trip to New Zealand and Australia. I also wanted to hear about Caroline's trip to New York with Flora!

Although S3 and the Christmas special felt a bit different in tone from S1-S2, I will miss this show and most of the characters.

[fauntleroy]

Forgot about this show for ages. Watched this episode so remembered why I stopped watching. So many annoying characters, primarily Celia but also both sons (?) Who seem useless twats. Support your mum for god sakes. Oh and that ex John? Awful.

And the accident with the angle grinder just to do a plot point, careless on both parts.

All too bad, because I like the well, not sure what, really!

[Quilt Fairy]

Have I missed a season? At what point was Judith supposed to have cleaned up her act and written a prize-winning children's book?  Is my memory that hazy?  The last thing I remember is her losing her baby due to her alcoholism.  And I thought Lawrence had tried living with his dad and Judith once before and bailed.  Why would he agree to go back?  Surely Caroline would have taken that into consideration. 

[JudyObscure]

I wasn't expecting a new season, so I was thrilled to see something on PBS last night that wasn't a concert re-run.

I still find the whole messy group delightful. They do have many faults but they ring true to me  and they entertain me.

I liked seeing the two babies grown to toddler age. I wonder if it's the same actors?

Caroline said before that she was ambitious and I wondered how much higher she could climb beyond head mistress of a posh boarding school.  I guess reforming a great ugly  school full of hooligans would be a feather in any educators cap, but -- wow.  She'll deserve to be Prime Minister of Education if she succeeds.

Lawrence should just suck up the awkwardness of living with Judith and John.  His last year at school will be too busy to care where he sleeps.  Was our show's writer, Sally Wainwright, making a dig at successful children's writers, with Judith's prize?  Heh.

I liked John and Judith's ultra modern house contrasting with Caroline's rustic farm house. I know the British upper-class loves those ancient piles of stone but I would be like Celia: "Vermin!  Damp!"  When English people say, "There's damp under the window," or "We smell damp," do they mean mold?

I'm interested in Celia's acting because local theatre is something I love and I can see room for both types of drama with our old couple there.  Celia says, "Just make up most of your lines. It's what I do!" and once again I'm wondering if Sally Wainwright is letting us in on a running joke.

I don't blame Jillian for being hurt on her mother's behalf.  If my father had married again after my mother died I would have hated to see him act like that 49 year marriage never happened.

Jillian looked older and Caroline looked heavier.  Glad I'm not the only one who's aging and gaining.

[Pallas]

On 8/4/2015 at 8:14 AM, JudyObscure said:

Put me down as loving John and falling about laughing at all his childish, transparent attempts to get people to like him, sleep with him, amuse him and generally take care of him.

Me too! That is, I love that this particular masculine character has been depicted. Of course he married a headmistress: his nanny will always be the love of his life, and the headmistress of one of Britain's top public schools is next best. And yes, he works so hard at being taken care of, that people --especially mothers -- find themselves moved to "reward the try" before they quite realize that the reward he has maneuvered them toward doling out is in keeping with his age, not his maturity. 

I think it's a question: was it more John's affair, or how it re-arranged her perspective on her marriage, that brought Caroline closer to coming out with herself? Somehow she came to realize that following the rules -- even making the rules -- however brilliantly, and with whatever light touch, would still not bring her nurturing love. That has to fall within the powers of the other person. 

[JudyObscure]

I think I just notice this when we're re-staring a thread like this.

I've wondered about this a hundred times and finally just have to ask.  Why does every topic on every show forum on Previously TV have a picture of the last poster next to it saying that it was the first post?  In other words, why does it say, "1st" when it seems to mean, "lst"?

[Pallas]

Hover over those "1st"'s in each forum thread title, and you'll find that they offer to escort you to the first post in the thread. The poster avatar, name and date all refer to the most recent post. 

[SusanSunflower]

Writing's still sharp but I was dismayed to find Caroline as Uber-Mother-of-us-All rapidly approaching Saint Caroline Territory as other characters regress or lose all edge.   Agree, very hard to imagine Caroline buying that (relatively small) and "remote" house to co-habit with sundry but most importantly her unsparing mother.  Yes, I think "damp" is polite words for mold or the smell of mold (even if odorless or nonexistent).  Caroline said the tests were negative and as a savvy business woman I'd expect her to test for same before trading in her prior palace.  (Mold treatment can be intrusive and expensive).  She may have financial constraints, but she's hardly poor or desperate and she's about to have a decent regular salary again.  A bit too broad a reference to Cold Comfort Farm, guilt-ridden Gillian slowly going mad.  

I haven't given up on them all ending up relatively happy .... 

[Quilt Fairy]

9 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I liked John and Judith's ultra modern house contrasting with Caroline's rustic farm house. I know the British upper-class loves those ancient piles of stone but I would be like Celia: "Vermin!  Damp!"  When English people say, "There's damp under the window," or "We smell damp," do they mean mold?

The thing is, it IS a old stone farmhouse.  Stone floors, stone walls (at least the outside walls.  I can't imagine it being anything except cold and damp, with the odd mouse hole here and there.  The answer for that? Get a cat.  Although I honestly think the mouse/mice might just be in there because it's been uninhabited (by people) for a while.

 

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I've wondered about this a hundred times and finally just have to ask.  Why does every topic on every show forum on Previously TV have a picture of the last poster next to it saying that it was the first post?  In other words, why does it say, "1st" when it seems to mean, "lst"?

 

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

Hover over those "1st"'s in each forum thread title, and you'll find that they offer to escort you to the first post in the thread. The poster avatar, name and date all refer to the most recent post. 

Thanks for the answer.  I'm like Judy, I've noticed that for years and it never made any sense to me. 

[Ms Lark]

Maybe in a twist of fate, Alan will outlive Celia -- soon! Shouldn't Jillian inherit the farm? She's been working it for years. No way it should go to Celia and/or Caroline at all.

[Pallas]

59 minutes ago, Ms Lark said:

Shouldn't Jillian inherit the farm?

Isn't the farm Gillian's and not Alan's?  Or did Alan invest in it when it was at risk of foreclosure? 

[JudyObscure]

Thanks for the "1st" explanation, Pallas.

 

Yes, I always thought the farm was Gillian's through her first husband, the one who seems to still be hanging out in the barn.

[Ms Lark]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, I always thought the farm was Gillian's through her first husband, the one who seems to still be hanging out in the barn.

 

7 hours ago, Pallas said:

Isn't the farm Gillian's and not Alan's?  Or did Alan invest in it when it was at risk of foreclosure? 

 

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Thanks for the "1st" explanation, Pallas.

 

Yes, I always thought the farm was Gillian's through her first husband, the one who seems to still be hanging out in the barn.

Thanks for the explanation, guys. Glad to know she won't lose that! Still despise Celia, though.

[Quilt Fairy]

I'm pretty sure the farm is Gillian's, although it's been stated that Alan has helped her financially from time to time.

2 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

Still despise Celia, though

Celia's a conundrum.  I always thought that her philandering first husband had made her bitter, and that the dream marriage to good-natured Alan would finally make her happy.  But she remains a judgmental shrew.  I wonder if Alan sometimes wishes he hadn't married her.

[SusanSunflower]

Celia is so out-of-line abusive she's the sort of person that other people would likely tell-off.  It's hard to watch Caroline "just take it" from Celia, but also cringe worthy wrt to the other characters "holding their peace".... (both of which are things audience members would viscerally relate to) ... takes a lot of the fun out of Celia being so over-the-top, out-of-line ... I kept wanting someone to simply smack (slap) her.   Ferchrissake -- her daughter is about a 10 out of 10 for the life-change stress scale ... be (just a little bit) supportive, or if that's too much, be helpful. 

eta: I guess I was just trying to explain why Celia's nastiness, which was arguably funny in the first season, before subsequent tragedy and upheaval has now palled simply feels mean. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[BetyBee]

It was good at first to have the old crew back, but then I ended up only caring about Caroline and Gillian.  Celia is so shrewish and selfish - why would Alan be with her?  Her voice is so wonderful and surely the actress is too.  I wish they'd write her a bit more human.  I felt sorry for Gillian when Alan explained his burial choices.  I'd probably sprinkle a few of his ashes near her mother if I were her, but I guess if he goes first, then it's up to Celia.  Caroline is a saint, but she's bound to blow later in the season, the way everyone is pulling at her.  

Edited December 24, 2017 by BetyBee

[IrishPirate]

The dates for the Christmas specials, parts one and two, are incorrect. They should reference 2017, and not 2016.

[Quilt Fairy]

33 minutes ago, IrishPirate said:

The dates for the Christmas specials, parts one and two, are incorrect. They should reference 2017, and not 2016.

The dates are for the original UK airings, regardless of when they are shown in the US.  PBS is just catching up with last Christmas.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Quilt Fairy

[JudyObscure]

Sign of a good, nicely complicated show?  I was awake thinking about it last night, wondering why  everyone is so mad at Celia? Yes, she was a little cranky and critical but that's not abusive is it?  She's 78, was happily settled in the other house and now she suddenly has to either find an entirely new place or go live somewhere uncomfortable, far from their favorite restaurants and shops, or else miss seeing her granddaughter every day.  I'm sure Celia and Alan have become super attached to Flora by now.  They probably spend far more time with her than Caroline does.

 I think if anyone is being selfish it's Caroline.  For the sake of a "more challenging" career she has uprooted the whole family, her elderly mother, who may not have a bad chest, but surely shouldn't be taking stone stairs up and down every day, her son who had to go  live with Judith and John, and most of all Flora who might lose her father and primary care-giver if he can't come that far every day.

Edited December 25, 2017 by JudyObscure

[SusanSunflower]

I thought that for some impossibly complicated financial reason staying in the old house (palace with separate mother/Alan apartment) was impossible, unless that was somehow (via some impossibly complicated solution) made a non-issue.  Celia and Alan are likely quite capable of living un-attached or moving nearer Gillian although Celia predictably would find fault in any/all solutions proffered.  It's only a 2-part Christmas series and the details of why and wherefore and other alternatives are probably not going to be answered being unworthy of using up precious screentime.  I don't have any idea how big much less luxurious or spartan the new house is (nor do I have a good sense of where it is in relation to anything/anyone else).   As someone living in the "middle of nowhere", I can't recommend it for most pensioners given the lack of simple, if expensive, public transportation type amenities (like taxis or even Uber).   Sticking Celia and Alan in a refined and generous retirement condo seems like the best for everyone -- but there's no fun in that. 

eta:  There was no explanation that I recall as to why they moved en mass, with even the kettle still unpacked -- into the new house -- cold and unfurnished -- almost dumped at the doorstep.  It felt contrived, as if to provide Celia more to bitch about .... 

Edited December 24, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[JudyObscure]

Yes, Susan I agree, we didn't get a lot of details, maybe tonight will answer some of my questions.  I love Sarah Lancashire's beautiful soft voice, but it's part of her acting style to mumble some lines under her breath and I miss things. 

My church's Christmas Eve service starts at seven and tonight's show at eight.  Would it be wrong for me to raise my hand at 7:45 and tell the pastor to wrap it up?

[SusanSunflower]

episode thumbnails over at wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Last_Tango_in_Halifax_episodes ) aren't very helpful but -- yes, back in season 2 (S2E2), Caroline and Kate and Celia are all talking about pooling resources to buy-out John... which then is not mentioned but I'd guess Kate's death put an end to that scheme ... (There's also mention in season 3 of Alan and Celia looking into buying a bungalow??).  Not worth fretting over -- except I recall several episodes into the show realizing that "home" was a virtual palace the purchase of which (if memory serves) was possible only because of John's prodigious talent as a middle brow best-selling author (which is not mentioned in Wiki) ... but which allowed Caroline to live in a manner far far far beyond her means with even more longstanding reason to look down on John as a fraud (like their largely sham marriage).  

Was John seen in part I of this special?  (He's listed as being in every episode ever, but I don't remember seeing him) although there was mention of him.  Not worth dwelling on, but it's a lot of money and security to be up in the air (or glossed over) for so many people (particularly the kids -- yeah I didn't understand the lack of concern about the boys.... Certainly with all that Caroline has been through, she's overdue for some (more) very bad decisions (that belie her in-control persona).

[JudyObscure]

Well now.  I loved part two and much was explained.  Caroline was "let go," from her posh school, Flora's bio-dad is still in the picture, and John and Judith are regular visitors now.

It was sad and frightening when Gillian told Robbie the whole story, but it's probably for the best if he goes to Canada.  From a story standpoint we'll probably get the old wild Gillian back and she was so much fun.

The play was a riot. 

[SusanSunflower]

Why did I think this Christmas 2-Fer was the series finale?   Was that wishful thinking on my part (having watched too many shows post-resuscitation)?  Sorry, all far too breakneck with too little charm crowded (for me) with far too many poorly remembered characters I didn't care about.  Oh well, better than average Christmas Eve fare, happy to leave the crew in that memory. 

[Valny]

Holy shit, when I first heard about a Christmas special for some reason I thought it was something I'd seen/aired already, so I just decided to check it out a few minutes ago and then knew after a few seconds, hey! I've never seen this! Such a nice surprise, feels like I'm seeing a long lost episode or something! Anyway, I'm going to go back to watching and enjoy whatever we have left of this little series. 

[Quilt Fairy]

I thought part 2 was really, really strange.  As in a "Say what?"  thought bubble over my head when the final credits rolled.  Aren't BBC Christmas specials supposed to give you a warm, fuzzy feeling?  ( Except, of course, when they killed off Dan Stevens' character on Downton Abbey, so what do I know? )

At the end, when Caroline is walking towards her new school and Gillian is walking towards the barn, I thought, OK, they're both moving on and facing their demons.  Except instead of entering the barn Gillian locks up the barn door and walks away.  What is that supposed to mean?

Edited December 25, 2017 by Quilt Fairy

[Pallas]

On 12/24/2017 at 3:43 PM, SusanSunflower said:

Was John seen in part I of this special?  (He's listed as being in every episode ever, but I don't remember seeing him)

Yup, we see him, Judith, Laurence and Angus at his and Judith's even more palatial House that Fantasy Built. John is vexedly lamenting that Britain will never be a socialist republic, as he stands in the kitchen dressed like James Bond (as Laurence points out). Judith wonders if the boys are house-broken enough to be left alone while they go collect her latest award, and John croons "Of course," then gives the boys a very Dad-dish, silent, warning-finger-narrowed-eyes gesture before following Judith out the door.

Then we see him drop Laurence off at Caroline's new house because, as John says, "He's not happy living with us" (shrugged off and yet confided in a sincere yet very conditional,  "But then you're his mum: you'd know all about that" tone). John also wonders if -- well, test-launches the accusation that -- Caroline moved too quickly in changing her life, and gave no thought to anyone else (John). "At least you can have him over the holidays, can't you," says John, reasonably, of these next weeks when Laurence isn't in school, Caroline is moving into a new home and preparing to take on a new career. He is halfway back to London before Caroline lifts up her steady gaze and uncrosses her arms.

[proserpina65]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 9:01 PM, fauntleroy said:

Forgot about this show for ages. Watched this episode so remembered why I stopped watching. So many annoying characters, primarily Celia but also both sons (?) Who seem useless twats. Support your mum for god sakes. Oh and that ex John? Awful.

And the accident with the angle grinder just to do a plot point, careless on both parts.

All too bad, because I like the well, not sure what, really!

Yeah, I watched it mostly out of obligation.  I really think they should've stopped after season two, 'cause it's gone downhill badly.  Especially all the ret-conning of Eddie's death.

[SusanSunflower]

I felt a bit of irritation that they had predictably checked off the box harboring any suspicion that Caroline might either "not be gay" or be bisexual or that her romance with Kate had been uniquely all about the glory of Kate (I'm being facetious)... however, Olga, the new girl, seems to fit into the "Kate slot" and seems -- if the show continues -- will be no rival to the Caroline Supremacy either financially or educationally or tempermentally.  Like Kate, she will yield to the power of the Caroline the Great.... do I hear patter of yet more little feet?    feh

[JudyObscure]

I thought Caroline yielded to Kate in their biggest decision -- having a child.  Caroline didn't want more children then, I doubt if she does now.

[SusanSunflower]

meh, I thought Caroline yielded to Kate's desire to be mother with the suggestion that Kate would be doing the heavy lifting and was the one whose career would consequently be placed on the back burner (very conventional).  Actually, I was joking about little feet ... just feeling that the show has somehow acquired a bunch of toddlers ... what's another one?  Babies look so festive and homey, particularly when they're as easy going, no fuss, no muss, and quiet as churchmice (or simply off camera).   I guess I find Caroline's "impulsiveness" a bit off-putting ... leaping into bed with a new lover in the middle of all this tumult is predictable enough, although taking life-altering career and other advice from an virtual stranger a bit more problematic (given how many lives are altered Caroline's decisions).  I'm still not quite over Kate's death and the feeling that the relationship between Caroline and Kate was likely lucky to have been "killed off" ... and yet, here it again, except this time her name is Olga. 

eta:  I'm reminded of the shopworn and never terribly apt joke about "What does a lesbian bring on a second date?"  "A U-haul."  attributed to rapid progression to move-in-together, get married, have kids...  by which I mean -- not to offend anyone -- the show seemed to be reinforcing that stereotype. 

Edited December 26, 2017 by SusanSunflower