Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Swebby]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this, but the challenge earlier to come up with a way that Lauren could work in S3 got me thinking, so I thought I'd share. It's weak, but would this work for any of you?

 

The Mirakuru guy that killed/hospitalized Quentin at the end of S2 was there for Laurel. Quentin is either dead or long-term severely injured. S3 starts with Laurel feeling enormous guilt over this (& Tommy), and vowing that she will make herself strong, even invulnerable, so no one will ever again suffer to protect her (she could also be shown to be aware of how many times she has been a DiD). We see her lawyering by day and training (maybe with a sensei sent by Sara??) by night. This is all played in a dead-eyed, "angry at the world but especially herself" kind of way, which the actress could probably pull off.

 

We see her being a good, effective lawyer trying to put away the bad guys, and sometimes succeeding, but regularly see them get away because the "system" is in some way faulty. She calls in Team Arrow to deal with these ones, and this is pretty much her only interaction with them, as she is not physically up to the task of helping them yet.

 

Her mother, meanwhile, has returned to Starling City because Quentin is dead/hospitalized, and we see convincing love/support between them during the season. At the end of S3, she fails to convict one final violent woman-hating criminal (not her fault, some problem with the "system") who then then kills her mother. This lead to Laurel abandoning the law completely as a solution & going after bad guys herself as a VERSION of the Canary, with the approximate physical skill-set of e.g. the Huntress, not the same skill level as Oliver or Sara.

 

This would all have to happen in a "show, don't tell" way to be even remotely plausible. Of course this also works best if Quentin dies, but nobody wants that!

[statsgirl]

That's a wonderful way of putting it Ceylon5.  It makes more sense than anything I've heard from someone affiliated with the show.

 

I don't think Laurel really loved Tommy, not until he died and she realized that he loved her enough to die for her.  Truly, I don't think Laurel has ever loved anyone really, not Quentin or Sara or Dinah. Mostly it's about what they can do for her, whether it's to show how superior she is (Sara), or to give her things (Oliver, Tommy, her parents), or be a justification for her anger (Quentin drinking, Dinah leaving, Oliver for not being what she wanted him to be,). I know that's harsh but that's how I see her.  When she's nice to someone, it seems more like she's saying "see what a good person I am" rather than being nice for the sake of the other person, as Sara is.

 

 

Thea's style is "club owner 24/7" in S2, but I love thea, and I think Willa is a wonderful actress, so I don't mind it. Moira's style is ~billionaire matriarch~ all the time, her perfectly coifed hair is basically a piece of art, but again, I love Moira and I can buy it. I'm not fond of Felicity wearing cocktail dresses to QC, but I can fanwank her overdressing as an armor to deal with being a fake executive assistent.

 

Thea is a club owner, and she's a kid so I can understand her wanting to play dress-up.  Moira's style seems like an armor or maybe it's stage clothes to suit who she plays. I can't imagine they would be comfortable but they are consistent with billionaire matriarch.  Most of Felicity's clothes make sense, some, like the boob dress seem like 

 

Laurel's clothes seem more model or reality star than junior lawyer, and that just adds to the lack of belief that she is a crusading lawyer out to do good.  I was picking up my kid from school one day during exam time and one of the high schoolers came out, upset at how little she could answer the exam questions and I thought "honey, if you spent half as much time studying as you do on your clothes and make-up, you wouldn't have that problem."  That's how I feel about Laurel.

 

I'm frequently pulled out of the show by KC's eyelashes.  Who told her Cupie Doll was a good look?  

 

 

We see her lawyering by day and training (maybe with a sensei sent by Sara??) by night. This is all played in a dead-eyed, "angry at the world but especially herself" kind of way, which the actress could probably pull off.

This makes a lot more sense than taking over the jacket.  Sara would know better than anyone else how dangerous it is to be a defenseless woman.

 

 

At the end of S3, she fails to convict one final violent woman-hating criminal (not her fault, some problem with the "system") who then then kills her mother. This lead to Laurel abandoning the law completely as a solution & going after bad guys herself as a VERSION of the Canary, with the approximate physical skill-set of e.g. the Huntress, not the same skill level as Oliver or Sara.

That makes sense to me and makes up for the mistake of not sending her down the Vigilante path when Tommy died and she realized it was her fault.  Good scenario, Swebby.

[AnyoneButYou]

I've noticed Laurel/KC's eyelashes. They bug me, but what bugs me more is all the rings Laurel wears. It wouldn't bug me half as much if I didn't know that that's a KC thing. I don't really like it when an actor's fashion sense starts carrying over to their tv character's. I know it happens sometimes, but it always bugs me.

[Swebby]

The rings are particularly jarring for me as she wears a sovereign ring (in her fashion blog & on the show). In the UK this is an almost cartoonishly "trashy" look (search "chav" on google, it isn't a nice term but it will give you the idea). And thanks Statsgirl!

[Orion]

That's an interesting idea @Swebby and I think it would work as far as Laurel's motivations go but the one problem I see (two really but one is that it would mean Laurel would get more screen time and I don't care if she's curing diseases and rescuing puppies I don't want her to have more screen time) is that the writers would be "Fridging" two popular characters and putting another "On a Bus" all at alter of adding to Laurel's woman pain.  That is never going to work well for a character like Laurel that already feels like to much of the story is sacrificed for the sake of making her relevant. That type of story breeds resentment. Quentin, Dinah and Sara all have their fans and using their deaths and exits to build up Laurel would feel cheap and badly used. I have similar feelings on the writers killing off Moira to add to Oliver and Thea's pain. But at least I could see that she really didn't have a believable story going forward. Whereas Quentin and Sara especially have so much more story to tell and imo Laurel hasn't earned the death of two characters to save her story.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Orion

[Swebby]

 

Orion: Whereas Quentin and Sara especially have so much more story to tell and imo Laurel hasn't earned the death of two characters to save her story.

And that is indeed where the whole things falls down, I agree!

[Sakura12]

Laurel already has one death on her hand (Tommy) so I wouldn't want her to have another. Killing Sara, Dinah or Quentin for Laurel would not get Laurel any more fans. 

[dtissagirl]

Manhunter works so much more fluidly, though. Nobody has to die to prop Laurel. She's in the DA's office, possibly even as the DA. She's got Team Arrow working the streets, and her father working the Police Dept. She can start legally trapping perps with that much insider info, and the ones she can't trap she can deliver to Team Arrow. Or maybe even go after them herself with blackmail, or worse legal threats than the ones they were facing in the first place. Cynical depressed ruthless lawyer going outside the law fits Laurel. Suddenly starting to train for hours everyday to become a martial arts expert masked vigilante? That still reads as "Oliver and Sara do it, I wanna do it too me me meeee".

[statsgirl]

 

Manhunter works so much more fluidly, though. Nobody has to die to prop Laurel. 

I can understand why AK doesn't want to give up on the idea of Laurel as BC, but Berlanti and the WB suits shouldn't be so tied to it.

[BunsenBurner]

Isn't this supposed to be in California like Batman is in New York? In both places the DA's are elected officials. ADAs are not. I'm assuming California as it would make more sense to go to China on the Queen's Gambit from there. LL would have to be elected to become the ADA.

Edited June 28, 2014 by BunsenBurner

[Morrigan2575]

Could be San Francisco area or Seattle area. Star City was supposed to be somewhere in Northern CA but I heard SA once say just think of Starling City as Seattle area. I'm not sure if that's because they shoot in Vancouver or because current GA comics and GA under Mike Grell was set in Seattle.

In any case I doubt reality matters, especially when it comes to trying to give Laurel relevance.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[BunsenBurner]

State of Washington also elects their DAs.

[Orion]

Since Jennifer Crusie's blog was brought up in the Relationship thread I thought I would leave this here "How do you solve a problem like Laurel Lance." It's her take on Laurel and why should would work better going dark.

 

 

In The Sound of Music, a bunch of judgmental nuns sing “How Do You Solve A Problem Like Maria?” trying to figure out how to fix a novice who is just too damn exuberant. Of course, the problem isn’t Maria, it’s her context; that is, Maria doesn’t fit in the story the nuns want to tell because their story isn’t hers; she belongs in a different narrative, one with apple-cheeked children and Nazis and a lot of mountains. It’s one of the clearest examples I know of a basic truth about character in storytelling: Context is everything.

Characters are introduced in a context set up by writers to achieve the story they want to tell, especially those introduced as the protagonist (the one we root for) and the antagonist (the one we root against). That means that one of the first things we do when we enter a story is pick a side. That’s fine as long as we pick the side the writers want us to pick. But when writers put a character on the page or screen and say, “Love her!” and the majority of their audience says, “Nope,” the writers turn into misguided nuns and their narrative starts to come apart at the seams. I think that’s what happened to the character of Laurel Lance on the TV show, Arrow. While many people like Laurel, many more do not, which is a problem since she’s not only the hero’s love interest, she’s also a heroic figure on her own as the crime fighter, the Black Canary. We’re halfway through the second season, and the backlash against Laurel only seems to be growing stronger. It’s way too late to rewrite or reboot the character; she’s well established in the Arrow world, so if the writers want the character to be somebody people want to watch, they’re going to have to work with what they’ve already created. If they can’t change her character (and I don’t think they should), their next best bet is to change her context.

 

 

http://www.arghink.com/2014/02/07/character-and-context-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-laurel-lance/

 

She brings up an interesting point, I think, about taking sides on characters. From the first time Laurel is on screen in the grabs the remote and turns off the TV scene and the first scene with Oliver and she's bitching him out over not being hell longer than 5 years I picked a side. I think most viewers/readers choose sides when they are watching an argument or seeing conflict. Who's right or who's wrong. The problem with having Oliver and Laurel's first meet be a fight is once I decided that Oliver went through hell on that island and while Laurel is completely justified in her anger towards Oliver I felt sympathy for him, I put Laurel in she's a bitch box and every time she was on screen I saw her interactions through that filter.  I honestly think the writers lost me with Laurel from that opening scene and never gave me a good enough reason to change my initial opinion, if anything it was constantly re-enforced.

 

ETA because I forgot @BunsenBurner DA's can also be appointed by US Attorneys I'm assuming if Laurel does go to the DA's office that's how she'll get there. *sigh* One more thing handed to her instead of earned.

Edited June 28, 2014 by Orion

[Sakura12]

The only consistent trait with the Laurel character is she's just handed things just because. She was handed a high profile case at a job she just started ignoring the fact that she has a huge conflict of interest, she was handed her job back through blackmail and now probably was handed the Canary hero name which will magically include martial arts skills without having to go through blood, sweat and tears training. 

[statsgirl]

It does feel unfair that Lauren gets handed everything instead of earning it.  On the other hand, it cheats the character of development and consistency.

[Morrigan2575]

I hope it's ok to post this here. I think it actually explains a lot of what's wrong with Laurel
 

https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Black_CanaryAndrew Kreisberg's retelling of Dinah Lance's origin in Green Arrow/Black Canary. It was fairly apparent that Kreisberg hadn't even read even a summary of the character's background, much less the fairly recent Birds of Prey stories which established Dinah as being aware of her mother's double life as the original Black Canary.
Most fans were not amused that Dinah Drake was depicted as having quit superheroics to become a housewife or that she was ashamed of having been a superhero and hid that part of herself from her daughter. They were also less than pleased that the elder Dinah - who had worked with numerous superheroes during her time with the Justice Society of America - was horrified at the idea of her daughter being "a freak" (i.e. having super powers) or that she would call in one of the few non-powered members of the JSA (i.e Wildcat) to try and help her daughter get control of her powers.
The younger Dinah didn't fare much better in the above story, having been given a tragic background where she accidentally deafened her first love when she lost control of her powers. What is worse, she never took the initiative to start training on her own and take up her mother's name until Wildcat suggested it. Yes, you read that right - it never occurred to one of the most proactive Feminist heroines in The DCU to become a superhero like her mom until a man suggested it.

I'm beginning to suspect that Sara is

Gail Simone's Dinah

, Badass, rule breaking motorcycle riding heroine/leader and feminist role model. Laurel is AK's version, the wet dishrag, DiD that supports the male hero.

Edited June 29, 2014 by SilverStormm
Please spoiler tag, non show only info.

[Starfish35]

I was actually thinking about Gail Simone's description of Black Canary, linked further upthread.
 

we had spent years building the Canary into a force of nature, a wild, untamed chick with a motorcycle and the moves of a master martial artist. In GA/BC, despite the best efforts of everyone, she seemed to end up as a hostage, or a wet blanket fairly often.

While the description of Black Canary in GA/BC sounds like Laurel - "hostage", "wet blanket", I'm not sure I'd agree that Sara is

"a force of nature, a wild, untamed chick."

Sara's far too damaged at this point. She has the motorcycle and the martial arts skills, but the Canary I envision from Gail Simone's description isn't Laurel or Sara, to be quite honest. Sara's the Canary I'd prefer for the show by a long shot - I want no part of a Laurel Canary - but I'm not sure personality wise Sara is all that close to Gail Simone's Canary either. Laurel certainly isn't - there is no part of

"wild and untamed"

in Laurel's personality at all. Sara...Sara carries the weight of too many years as an assassin. There's too much shame and darkness on her right now, but I think maybe with time she could develop into this. But she needs to get away from the LoA for it to happen.

I don't know, just some thoughts. It would be interesting to know Gail Simone's thoughts on Arrow and Laurel/Sara, but when I looked at her blog, she said she'd only watched a couple of episodes.

Edited June 29, 2014 by SilverStormm
Tagged non show only info.

[Sakura12]

I'm beginning to suspect that Sara is

Gail Simone's Dinah, Badass, rule breaking motorcycle riding heroine/leader and feminist role model.

Laurel is AK's version, the wet dishrag, DiD that supports the male hero.

 

That's what I thought too. 

 

Laurel is not the version of the Black Canary that will make me want to root for her. Add that to the fact that Sara got all the badass traits of the Black Canary master of martial arts, intelligence, leadership, stealth, escape artist, feminist, acrobatics, marksmanship, along with gadgets and motorcycles and taking in an orphan named Sin . All Laurel is left with is can't cook and could dress up like a prostitute. 

Edited June 29, 2014 by Sakura12
Tagged non show only info.

[Morrigan2575]

Oh sorry I guess that was a spolier.

Sara's far too damaged at this point. She has the motorcycle and the martial arts skills, but the Canary I envision from Gail Simone's description isn't Laurel or Sara, to be quite honest. Sara's the Canary I'd prefer for the show by a long shot - I want no part of a Laurel Canary - but I'm not sure personality wise Sara is all that close to Gail Simone's Canary either

Taking to Sara's thread Edited June 29, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Reminder: Please remember this forum/thread is about the Arrow - the TV show, therefore, any information that comes from outside of the show i.e. the comics or comic related comparisons, should be tagged in all threads except those prefixed as 'Spoilers'. Those who haven't read the comics and only watch the show must have the choice as to whether they want to know what a character 'should be' like or will/won't become.

Thank you.

[tv echo]

I moved my Laurel comments to the Hopes and Fears (Speculation) thread because they were about Season 3.

Edited June 29, 2014 by tv echo

[poetgirl925]

Laurel already has one death on her hand (Tommy) so I wouldn't want her to have another. Killing Sara, Dinah or Quentin for Laurel would not get Laurel any more fans.

I still think killing Sara was their original plan for the end of S2 and they wisely thought better of it. I am a little afraid Quentin won't make it to S3 - he's the law enforcement connection to Team Arrow and without him, Laurel has more reason to be involved. But I agree that would also be a mistake because right or wrong, I'm still blaming her a little for Tommy's death. Story wise it would make sense that she'd want to train to better be able to protect herself so no one else dies protecting her, but it won't endear her to people who are either on the fence or already don't like her. I also think they need to consider changing her image for S3 because the wardrobe/hair/makeup choices definitely took me out of her character. Like others mentioned here, I too noticed that the rings were a KC thing, and I'm assuming the other stuff might have also been KC's influence since the change coincided with the launch of her fashion blog. I just don't think these things fit Laurel's character at all based on how she was established in S1, and they certainly didn't fit the new job.

I watched the pilot again today and relived that awful first meeting between Laurel and Oliver. It made me wonder if the writers realized that we might compare that scene to her anger over learning Sara's alive. On the one hand, it makes a little sense. I got the impression that burying herself in school and then work was a coping mechanism, and coping only works for so long. Sometimes anger does build up, there's a trigger, and people blow in a spectacular fashion. Here the triggers were learning Oliver was alive and then learning Sara is alive, and following this reasoning it makes more sense that she's angriest with the person she loved most (Sara.) The problem is that she wasn't first happy and then angry - I can excuse that with a cheating ex but it's harder to do with her sister. In both cases, it's 'I wish you'd stayed in hell longer than 5 years' and 'You ruined my life' before she's expressing that she's happy they're at least alive. I do see glimpses of a more loving bond between Laurel and her father, and they worked a few nice Sara/Laurel moments into the script. The problem is that the first meets really do color how I feel Laurel views her relationships with everyone around her.

I've also been thinking about the blackmail. Was it really OOC? If we look at who the producers and even KC say Laurel should be, then it's definitely OOC. And yet we've seen examples of her being manipulative in the past. IMO the flashbacks firmly established she was manipulative. If we believe Sara (and I do because they never showed me another side) Laurel manipulated her relationship with Oliver right from the beginning. In another flashback, she was emotionally manipulating Oliver into going along with her plans to move in together. In both these cases, she could have justified it by telling herself Sara was too young for Oliver and they'd get each other into trouble and that Oliver would be better off if he settled down. She's not necessarily wrong in her reasoning, but the fact that she felt it was okay for her to decide what's best and that it should include her being with Oliver are both signs that she's very self-centered. When you gave this type of personality, I think it's not really a big leap to blackmail. She was able to justify the blackmail too - the ADA nearly got her killed and she was trying to help her father. The only one that really bothered me was the first one because she didn't lose her job due to the arrest - those charges were dismissed. She lost her job because Donner asked her if she was an addict and she couldn't deny it. The fact that she never questioned whether she deserved to get her job back bothered me more than the blackmail. It's really hard to believe these writing choices weren't deliberate, which is why contradicting interviews are so confusing.

[statsgirl]

Don't forget she manipulated Tommy too, when she told him to ask Oliver f(he ex) r a job, and then without checking to see if he did it, she brought it up at the dinner table with Oliver and Helena. 

 

I don't think this needs to be spoiled tagged about Quentin but just in case 

Paul Blackthorne has said that since he's doing interviews for the show, we can take it as read that Quentin is still alive.

 

Something quarks spoiler tagged on the Burned thread:

This may be what the writers are talking about when they say that it's more fun to write for Laurel now that she knows: it's very difficult to allow Laurel to triumph - which is a big problem on a superhero show - when she's only sorta working with the Hood.  Felicity and Diggle can figure things out since they're right next to Oliver and working with him, making this is a team effort that supports Oliver; Laurel's kinda in opposition. We'll see how this goes.

Not sure where to put this (Burned?  speculation without spoilers?  here?) but I'm going to try here because it's about Laurel.

 

The idea that Laurel will be in the new Arrow lair with them next season makes me want to running screaming for the door.  But am I being unfair to her just because I don't like the character?  No, I decided. The problem with Laurel being in the lair with them next season, beyond her superiority to Diggle and Felicity, her judgmentalism, and her sense of possession of Oliver, is that Laurel just isn't competent, as a lawyer or as a person.  It wasn't just because they couldn't find anything else to do with her last season that she kept getting DiD'ed, it was because she would do stupid things like wear a white coat to break into a file room -- a file room she should have had access to as an ADA.  If you're working on a stealth operation of superheros, she's the last person I'd want to trust with the secret much less let her on the team.  

Edited June 29, 2014 by statsgirl

[formerlyfreedom]

@statsgirl, this is the perfect place to put it! And thanks for the spoiler tag there.

[poetgirl925]

What if they kill him and Laurel decides to switch from practicing law to law enforcement and replaces him as the Arrow's police go-between? Ugh I could see them doing something like this. The other characters usually have to get screwed over in the attempt to make Laurel relevant.

I don't know - they had Laurel resorting to blackmail to get her job back. That makes me think they want to keep her in the DA's office. As for her in the Arrow lair, I really hope we don't see her taking over there. I know she'll be involved now. There's no way to avoid that. I just can't imagine her having anything but a negative impact on Team Arrow if she's in the lair because it will end up being all about her one way or another. Even Quentin doesn't belong there, and I say that even though I love him. But being in the lair is not his role because he's a support member. Laurel should begin any involvement that way too. I don't think throwing her into the middle of the team will make people like her more.

I do remember thinking Laurel was manipulative with both Tommy and Oliver in S1 - the job thing with Tommy and then asking Oliver to intervene with Tommy on her behalf. A few episodes into S2, I'll admit I was hoping Laurel would just disappear. My episode reviews were bordering on rants, and I usually try to analyze characters objectively (even when they're like Laurel.) Another reviewer accused me of not being impartial because I like Felicity, which I felt was absurd because I have no problem liking multiple female characters. But to be fair, I spent a few hours one afternoon watching most of Laurel's scenes in S1, and my opinion didn't change. She's not a well written character. Out of the 10-15 people I know in real life who watch the show, not one of them likes Laurel. That's telling because I can almost always find one or two people who like characters I don't.

I am doing my S1 rewatch right now since I'm on vacation. I just finished ep. 2 a little while ago. I'm paying special attention to her scenes and instead of being all negative, I am looking for positive things. The writers just don't make it easy where she's concerned.

Edited June 30, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Happy Harpy]

I do remember thinking Laurel was manipulative with both Tommy and Oliver in S1 - the job thing with Tommy and then asking Oliver to intervene with Tommy on her behalf. A few episodes into S2, I'll admit I was hoping Laurel would just disappear.

I remember thinking "Ha! I knew it!" re: manipulative Laurel, when Oliver turned her down in S2 (League of Assassins?). The last time they had interacted on a personal level, she had served him the "we can't be together because of Tommy, let's be friends" speech. (I hoped it would be so, I unfortunately knew better) And not only she made a pass at Oliver, but she made a WTF, offended face when he wouldn't sleep with her at the snap of her fingers. I almost could see her thinking "Hey, I'm using your blindspot here! Why's it broken?!". Manipulative, indeed.

[TanyaKay]

Blackmail does seem to be one of the few things Laurel is actually good at though.

 

Oh we call her Blackmail Canary on tumblr ... I mean she has already blackmailed to get her job back and to get her dad back on duty, may be in season 3 she can blackmail Oliver into dating her again?

[statsgirl]

From the Relationships thread:

 

The setup of crusading lawyer for Laurel should have worked, but IMO it got sacrificed on the altar of her back and forth relationship with The Hood/Oliver. We never saw her do much, and what we did see her do was only successful because The Hood helped her.

That makes me wonder why they couldn't write something for Laurel as a character independent of her relationship with Oliver/Arrow.  They did for Diggle, a character they had to create from scratch, giving him a military background, knowledge of PTSD. as assassinated brother, an ex-wife and the whole Suicide Squad set-up. They did for Sara and Thea, who also don't exist in the comics.  Even Felicity, whose existence pretty much revolves around Oliver, we can see as a strong character in her own right.

 

I think the problem is twofold.  The first is KC's acting strengths. There's nothing wrong with a bitchy or unpleasant character, for example from Paul Blackthorne's old show ER which had both Kerry and Romano as anti-heroes the audience ended up caring about.  KC is best when she's playing bitchy but they won't let her do it on this show.  I don't know why, maybe it's the idea of Dinah Laurel Lance playing an anti-hero that is unacceptable.

 

The second problem is who the Black Canary is, as Orion has talked about above. In the comics she's equal to or more important than the Green Arrow.  But this is a TV show about the Green Arrow and it's hard to do the Black Canary justice if they want her as anything other than a sidekick and that will upset comic book fans even more than GA not ending up with BC. Even with Sara, who was still on guest star status, as soon as she joined the team, it became the Oliver & Sara Hour, instead of Arrow or Team Arrow.  And people liked Sara.

 

 

You really get the feeling that writers see her becoming involved in the A plot as the solution to all their problems with Laurel but if anything its just going to make it worse.

.Good point.  The only way I can see keeping Laurel good and on "team Arrow" (as opposed to Team Arrow) is to give her a completely different skill set -- legal -- and away from the black leather jacket fighting squad.  Otherwise, they're going to find themselves in an even bigger mess.

Edited July 1, 2014 by statsgirl

[Morrigan2575]

You mean Alex Kingston? I don't remember Paul Blacktorne being on ER but I didn't watch every season

Edited July 2, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[KirkB]

I was just thinking the same thing. Blackthorne may very well have been on ER at some point but I don't recall him being a star.

 

@statsgirl is right. Laurel's character is in a weird in-between place where there is very little they can do to make the character work at this point. No one but the hardest of the hardcore Laurel/KC/BC fans will accept her as the Canary, the crusading lawyer thing no longer really applies, few people want to see her with Oliver, so what other option do they really have? The Manhunter thing is about all that makes sense at this point.

Edited July 1, 2014 by KirkB

[Morrigan2575]

Thanks for the info. I stopped watching before that but came back for the finale. Guess I missed PB.

Manhunter makes sense and would play to KCs strengths. Unfortunately this really all come down to her name...they're almost damned if the do and damned if they don't. At this point their best bet is to set her on the path to BC...offscreen. Then if they really want/need to they can bring her back in the final season.

This way the can give Laurel/KC the title without hampering the show...of course YMMV

[pootlus]

I think the main issue isn't even that KC can't act - she can, just not particularly well.

 

It's 1) that she seems to make the weirdest acting choices with line delivery - making Laurel sound bitchy when she should be tired, or conflicted, or teasing, or a hundred other things people have pointed out on this forum and over on TWoP, and 2) that she can't seem to add layers to her performance.  When Sara came back it should have been happy, angry, disbelieving, but she seemed to only be able to do one thing at once and plumped for angry.

 

Less important, but kind of tied to 1) is that she doesn't seem to act with her body. Amell's posture completely changes depending on whether he's doing pre-Island or post-Island Ollie, and post-Island whether he's interacting with people as "Oliver Queen, (former) CEO and playboy", "The Arrow" or "Oliver, friend and partner of Diggle and Felicity".  Emily Bett Rickards clearly thinks a LOT about her body language, it always reflects Felicity's mood.  I can usually tell what mood Quentin is in before he opens his mouth because of Paul Blackthorne's posture and expression.  Katie Cassidy seems to be this stick figure that talks occasionally.

 

I'm not saying it's easy - I'd struggle to do it too.  But it takes me out of the moment when I'm not mentally tuning out of Laurel's scenes.

[Luckylyn]

 

that she can't seem to add layers to her performance.  When Sara came back it should have been happy, angry, disbelieving, but she seemed to only be able to do one thing at once and plumped for angry.

That's my issue with her performance.  She doesn't do nuance.   She switches from one emotion to another abruptly.  Part of that is a writing issue because they tend to take her in different directions without much development, but her performance could fill in the gaps.   She doesn't do that.  She takes whats on the page that moment without consideration of what went before or what will follow.

[tv echo]

I've been thinking about what someone said earlier - that Laurel has no motivation to become the Black Canary (if she does become the BC).  Her previous acts of blackmail have shown that she is willing to bend or break the law to get what she wants (even though she is a lawyer and now an ADA).  As a teen, she was willing to sabotage her sister's attempt to hook up with Oliver.  She turned a blind eye to pre-island Oliver's infidelity.  She was determined to save those files during the earthquake regardless of what anyone else said.  I think she wanted both Tommy and Oliver, and would've kept them both on the hook if Tommy had lived.  But Tommy died and she let Oliver go, out of guilt.  While part of the prosecution team, she violated legal ethics in meeting with Moira without Moira's lawyer present and disclosed prosecution strategy. 

 

Another thing about that first blackmail act - As I recall, Laurel demanded that DA Kate Spencer let her keep her ADA job or else Laurel would expose the trap set up by the DA's Office to capture Helena that resulted in endangering public citizens' lives.  If Laurel really was a hero and a good person, then she would have cared more about the public's safety and the integrity of the DA's Office, and gone to the press with the whole story, to ensure the DA's Office never did this again.  Instead, she used it as a bargaining tool to get her job back.

 

Laurel has a pattern of keeping her eye on the prize while doing what she must in order to achieve it.  So maybe there's something she wants that can only be accomplished by turning vigilante.  Maybe she thinks she's being a hero and that the end justifies the means (like Oliver when he first returned to Starling City).  As for training, just like the addiction storyline, we'll see a few shots of her training and, voila, she's a trained fighter! 

Edited July 3, 2014 by tv echo

[calliope1975]

I was just killing time on Instagram and there are a few pics of Willa and Katie hanging out. KC still has the blonde hair, and it looks quite nice. Superficial question - do ya'll think she'll dye it before they begin filming (next week, right?) or is this the latest new-and-improved Laurel?

[writersblock51]

I think KC is blonde to fit better into taking over for Sara and BC.

 

Which ticks me off in soooooooooooooooo many ways.  Should move this to the bitterness thread *sigh* again.

[strikera0]

I think KC will be keeping the blonde hair, too because Black Canary in the comics was blonde, as well. The change in hair color will probably be part of Laurel's upcoming transformation.

Edited July 4, 2014 by strikera0

[tv echo]

Maybe KC thinks that Felicity's blonde hair is the reason for her popularity, so if Laurel goes blonde ... yeah, bitter.

[Sakura12]

Sara's blonde as well. Laurel suddenly having blonde hair will make it look like Laurel is trying to take over her younger sister's life even more.

[Starfish35]

I thought Laurel was blonde in season two. I know she had the brown hair in season one, but I thought she went blonde for season two (long and blonde actually, which I did not think was the best look, but then I am not the fashionista Miz Katie Cassidy is).

ETA: never mind, been checking out pics. I guess it was just the season two promo pics she looked more blonde in. It's lighter than season one, but it's still not blonde blonde. Wow I'm losing it. :(

Her hair was long in season one too, but somehow it looked different this year. The curls maybe, instead of just straight? I don't know. I stand by thinking it looked better in season one, but beyond that I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Starfish35

[Pyramid]

If only a change of hair colour could solve the problem of KC as Laurel Lance.

[strikera0]

I thought Laurel was blonde in season two. I know she had the brown hair in season one, but I thought she went blonde for season two (long and blonde actually, which I did not think was the best look, but then I am not the fashionista Miz Katie Cassidy is).

ETA: never mind, been checking out pics. I guess it was just the season two promo pics she looked more blonde in. It's lighter than season one, but it's still not blonde blonde. Wow I'm losing it. :(

Her hair was long in season one too, but somehow it looked different this year. The curls maybe, instead of just straight? I don't know. I stand by thinking it looked better in season one, but beyond that I obviously don't know what I'm talking about.

 

If I remember correctly, KC had some blonde highlights in her hair during the latter half of season 2, but she wasn't fully blonde like she is now.

Edited July 4, 2014 by strikera0

[statsgirl]

I think KC will be keeping the blonde hair, too because Black Canary in the comics was blonde, as well. The change in hair color will probably be part of Laurel's upcoming transformation.

That made me laugh, because like much of  Laurel's "transformation", it's totally superficial.

[wingster55]

I really don't see the problem with her character in season 1. Season 2, sure but that was partly because of the negative reaction to her in s1 which baffles me. Because she dared to be upset with Oliver? Because she dated Tommy? Because she didn't have humorous moments constantly? I just don't get it (and this is a problem that spans many shows and characters male and female for me).

[KirkB]

I think for a lot of people (obviously only those familiar with the comics) the problem with Laurel from the beginning is that

she is not Dinah Lance, the strong-willed kick ass character who is, or becomes, the Black Canary

. But for others it didn't seem like Laurel had a lot to do in the first season, the character mostly existed to create tension between Oliver and Tommy. Her whole crusading lawyer thing might have been a way to go, except they mostly abandoned that for going after and helping the Hood, and she pretty much forgot about CNRI half the time. By the time season 2 came around it seemed even the EP's didn't have any ideas left about what to do with Laurel, since her biggest storylines (the CW's version of alcoholism and her sister being alive) didn't really amount to much and whenever she did appear she was often outclassed by Oliver and Quentin in importantance to the story. Hell, her two biggest qualities, blackmail and professional kidnapping victim, are little more than excuses for her to get in trouble so one of the two men in her life can save her. I think to save the character, if they can, they need to figure out exactly what her role on the show is and do it. Is she going to be a DA? The Canary?

Manhunter

? Whatever. Pick one and do it. Characters need a reason to be on a show, even if its just as comic relief, and right now I personally don't think Laurel has one.

Edited July 4, 2014 by SilverStormm
Comic info tagged.

[Starfish35]

Well this is just from my point of view and my personal opinion, but 1) Katie Cassidy is a mediocre actress (at best) who was painfully miscast in this role, and doesn't have the skills to pull off the layers that a role like this requires. Yes, the writing's been terrible, but a better actress could have pulled off making the character more sympathetic (she was wronged after all) instead of just angry and entitled. 2) She has little to no chemistry with anyone else in the cast, especially Amell (the possible exceptions being Paul Blackthorne and, ironically, Caity Lotz). 3) The writing for her character has been all over the map, and it seems obvious the writers have struggled to get a grip on her character, and if they can't, how is the audience supposed to?

For more specific examples from the episodes, I'd suggest checking out quarks' episode reviews in the episode threads, because the problems with Laurel's character in season one are gone over point by point in more detail than I could ever hope to do.

Edited July 4, 2014 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

Because she dared to be upset with Oliver? Because she dated Tommy? Because she didn't have humorous moments constantly? I just don't get it (and this is a problem that spans many shows and characters male and female for me).

 

One of the reasons I started watching Arrow was because I liked Katie Cassidy in her previous roles. Right from the pilot I realized KC and SA had horrible screen chemistry, and that has never changed for me. Every scene they had together felt like a black hole of suck. It gave me secondhand embarrassment. I kept waiting for it to get better, but it never did.

 

The two things I liked about Laurel in S1 are the two things you listed -- her anger towards Oliver, and her relationship with Tommy. I really liked Laurel/Tommy. I felt KC had real chemistry with Colin Donnell, I enjoy the bad-boy reformed because he fell for the good girl trope, and I hoped the show would explore that for real. But it turned out Laurel/Tommy was really all about Oliver.  And possibly worse was that even her anger towards Oliver was taken from her, and given to Tommy in the second half of the season. That made pretty clear to me that the writers had absolutely no idea what to do with Laurel by mid-S1. And S2 only made it clearer.

Edited July 4, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Sakura12]

I really don't see the problem with her character in season 1. Season 2, sure but that was partly because of the negative reaction to her in s1 which baffles me. Because she dared to be upset with Oliver? Because she dated Tommy? Because she didn't have humorous moments constantly? I just don't get it (and this is a problem that spans many shows and characters male and female for me).

 

Her anger at Oliver changed depending on the episode and really she was only angry at him until she found out he still had feeling for her, then she dropped Tommy like he was nothing. She is also partly responsible for getting Tommy killed, I still haven't forgiven her for that. She didn't have to be humorous all the time but as the lead female she shouldn't be boring and useless which is what she has been in both seasons. If you just removed all of her scenes not one thing would've changed in the story. 

[wingster55]

If you just removed all of her scenes not one thing would've changed in the story.

 

I can't agree with that as the major focus of the season was the triangle and it was the main character interaction of the season (which I enjoy more than the action a lot of the time). 

[icandigit]

I was indifferent to Laurel in the first season till she dropped Tommy like a bad habit.