Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, statsgirl said:

Her unique role still could have been "You catch 'em, I cook 'em" working in tandem with Oliver to put the perps behind bars but the writers were never interested in doing that.

But that was the original plan they tried in the first episodes of season 1 and abandoned in favor of a better one.

[statsgirl]

They still referenced it with the "You catch 'em, I cook 'em" line in 3x01 though.  I agree that OTA was a better foundation for the show but they didn't need to make Laurel as irrelevant as they did, especially once she knew about Oliver and Team Arrow.  It's even more inexplicable when you factor in that they knew that she was going to be the Black Canary even in season 2.  It's writing 101.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Yes, but making Oliver catch criminals and Laurel prosecute them would have changed the structure of the show..it would have made it like it was during the first half of season one and obviously the writers thought that formula didn't work. They referenced her job in S3 but it never was a factor.

Edited April 11, 2017 by Midnight Lullaby

[Sakura12]

I don't know why they spent so much time building Sara's character in season 2 if their intention was to abruptly dump her in the garbage. They said Sara was part Laurel's journey, but they didn't even talk to each other until episode 13. Even after that Sara still spent a majority of her time with Team Arrow not Laurel. They shared maybe a handful of scenes where they talked about Oliver and nothing about what Sara's been through or her crime fighting. 

How does that translate to Sara being part of Laurel's journey? She basically took Sara mask and name because she wanted to be special. They even had Oliver say Sara wouldn't want that life for Laurel. So she became a vigilante against her dead sisters wishes. 

[kismet]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Not letting her in on the secret to me shows the love/hate thing they had with the character of Laurel.  They had to have her become the Black Canary but dammit, they were not going to let her into their A story before they had to.  They didn't even want to do an emotional reveal as they did with Tommy, Moira, Sara and Thea.

I don't think they could have waited until she was wearing the mask herself though.  If it was ridiculous to join Team Arrow with a handful of boxing lessons with all the team support and tech and training they had, how much more ridiculous would it have been to go alone after criminals with the same handful of boxing lessons?  She would have been bound to fail even worse than Rene  or Curtis.

ETA:  Here's a possible fix they could have done -- if they weren't going to have Laurel take martial arts since childhood or because she wanted to defend herself working in the dangerous Glades in s1, she could have seen the masked woman in black taking down perps and been inspired to train herself because she thought it was a good idea to be able to defend herself for reasons.  Instead they had her go from 0 to 60 in a matter of months.

Agree with the love/hate.  Agree with the ETA.

My thought was that if they waited for her to be in a mask, they would have had her operate as her own crime fighting unit like SL did in s2. That she would not join TA until after the reveal. I know this would have complicated their LL carries/drags a bleeding & dying SL across town to the lair. But I think they could have figured out another way to solve the how to we officially fridge SL scene.

[kismet]

1 hour ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I think the problem is that they found a better story: OTA. Originally it was supposed to be all about Oliver/Laurel/Tommy but that plan was abandoned and after that they struggled to find Laurel a place in the new plan. The moment she stopped having an unique role in Oliver's life because they couldn't sell her as his LI she stopped being relevant..from that moment forward she didn't have a connection to him that only she could have and the show was all about Oliver's journey..

Which is why they should have built her up as an independent unit as they did with SL. Start adding some martial arts & training stuff in there after Tommy's death or part of her addiction recovery. I agree that she lost a special connection with Oliver, I just believe that is not a valid enough excuse for their horrible writing. An independent woman seeking justice in a city as corrupt & dangerous as SC, is not that exceptional a story, there are many examples over the years they could draw from. They are experienced showrunners and TV writers, they could have and should have done better. They also have comics to help them get ideas. While OTA might have been the more compelling story, I don't think it being better is the reason they were not able to write for LL. I think it explains why OTA got more screentime, but not why the writing has struggled for LL for years.

Personally, I always wonder what s3 would have been if they had perhaps but LL more into Ray's story since their journeys were very similar. It would have matched up that LL & RP were both trying to save their city after losing people they loved, and both were not impressed with the Arrow's tactics. I get that FS is the better seller of new characters. But perhaps a shared storyline with the 3 of them might have been interesting. It also would have sold the story they try to tell me that FS & LL are friends, if they were working a side mission to protect the city with RP. Heck the training scenes would have helped RP be more believable as a hero. I also believe KC's smug take on LL would blended with BR's unaware but egotistical take on RP.  The few scenes they shared were actually enjoyable. It might have also broken up the sitcom sameness vibe and yet out of place feel that F/R scenes had. Palmer Island I believe had room for LL.

[Midnight Lullaby]

17 minutes ago, kismet said:

Which is why they should have built her up as an independent unit as they did with SL. Start adding some martial arts & training stuff in there after Tommy's death or part of her addiction recovery. I agree that she lost a special connection with Oliver, I just believe that is not a valid enough excuse for their horrible writing. An independent woman seeking justice in a city as corrupt & dangerous as SC, is not that exceptional a story, there are many examples over the years they could draw from. They are experienced showrunners and TV writers, they could have and should have done better. They also have comics to help them get ideas. While OTA might have been the more compelling story, I don't think it being better is the reason they were not able to write for LL. I think it explains why OTA got more screentime, but not why the writing has struggled for LL for years.

Personally, I always wonder what s3 would have been if they had perhaps but LL more into Ray's story since their journeys were very similar. It would have matched up that LL & RP were both trying to save their city after losing people they loved, and both were not impressed with the Arrow's tactics. I get that FS is the better seller of new characters. But perhaps a shared storyline with the 3 of them might have been interesting. It also would have sold the story they try to tell me that FS & LL are friends, if they were working a side mission to protect the city with RP. Heck the training scenes would have helped RP be more believable as a hero. I also believe KC's smug take on LL would blended with BR's unaware but egotistical take on RP.  The few scenes they shared were actually enjoyable. It might have also broken up the sitcom sameness vibe and yet out of place feel that F/R scenes had. Palmer Island I believe had room for LL.

They could have but what I'm saying is that there was no interest in doing that and it wasn't mandatory anyway. If the initial idea was to have the trio Oliver/Laurel/Tommy as three characters with more or less the same importance (maybe setting up Tommy to be Oliver's nemesis) it was abandoned pretty early on and it became Oliver's story. At that point the rest of the characters are given importance if they are important to the story of the main character and Laurel stopped being relevant.

They could have written her journey into becoming BC but if they got a bad feedback for LL and thought other stories were better for the show why telling a story they didn't want to tell? It seems to me in season 2 they tried a few things with the character to see if they could find a way to make her work. The weird part comes when they killed Sara and made Laurel BC in that rushed way and with motivations that keep changing during the episodes but I think the weirdness comes from the fact that they had to keep changing their plans. I think if they could they would have written her off, instead they had to struggle to find a place for her on the show for years and the result wasn't that good.

[Primal Slayer]

Here is basically how I think they should've taken the character from the beginning and with KC

 Instead of introducing us to Laurel at CNRI and hearing Oliver was alive I would have loved it if they opened introduced us to her in the gym or some type of fighting dojo/Wildcats Gym. The way I envision it is we see her training some basic martial arts moves, the news comes on talking about Oliver Queen being alive, this gets her attention, throws her off, she is flipped down onto the mat.and we see her staring at the tv in confusion. 

She could still be a lawyer for CNRI but martial arts helps her quell her anger over what happened to her sister, her boyfriend, her family, and the general idea that Sara/Oliver were cheating on her behind her back. 

I always thought that it didn’t make sense that Laurel had to go through a 3 year “island” to finally suit up. Losing Sara a 2nd time and losing Tommy in S1 were no more impactful then her already losing her sister/Oliver/her family before the series began. What she went through off pre-show WAS her island. She already loved and lost in every way imaginable.

In Season 2, due to Tommys death and The Hood not being seen since the end of Season 1, Laurel could've suited up during the hiatus and has been taking down criminals as best she can.  She would be the woman shrouded in mystery for the first 1-2 episodes.

Laurel/Oliver would be playing a bit of cat/mouse for 2-3 episodes, she doesn’t know who Arrow is and he doesn’t know who Black Canary is. Arrow would find out who the Black Canary was and would confront her as Laurel Lance to tell her the usual “this isn’t your fight, blah blah blah” while Laurel would find out 100% that Oliver Queen is the Arrow towards the end of the season, it will be a suspicion that she always had. She would not be part of TA during S2 but would have the occasional team up with the team.

Sara Lance would reappear towards the middle of the season, she would still be part of the League of Assassins having come to town for a kill. She hasn’t seen anyone from her previous life since joining the LoA. Once she encounters Laurel and Quentin, it would start break through to her and she would reconnect with her family/Oliver but know that the LoA would come for her sooner or later so Nyssa would still come in and do her thing. She would still go by The Canary but by the LoA version or by Ravager.

Laurel would probably spend 10 episodes of S2 suited up as she would be weighing her life as a lawyer and a part-time vigilante. Once Arrow comes back she steps back into the shadows towards the end of the season since she would feel the Black Canary was not needed full time. 

After Oliver "disappears" in S3, she would suit up full time.

[Primal Slayer]

Even if Laurel/Oliver didnt work out as lovers, the writers should've made it a point to make Laurel his confidant and someone he turns to in general. They practically grew up together and had a relationship outside of dating. Instead of pitting these two against each other every turn they got, Tommys death should've brought them together as friends again. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

They could have done that if they didn't give them such a toxic backstory..instead Laurel was never the person he turned to, not before not after the island..she was the person he lied to over and over again. Also we don't really know if they were close when they were young before dating..Tommy and Oliver yes because their parents were close but Laurel's parents had a completely different background.

[Primal Slayer]

They all probably went to the same school the entire time and hung out with the same crowd. But even if they werent close until dating each other, they were together since they were teens, a long time to get to know someone.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Except what happened told us she didn't really know him. She planned a life for them while he was texting her sister behind her back and planning to get away from the responsibilities a life with her meant. Sara was the one that showed to know him better when she told Laurel he wasn't ready to settle down when they argued in the FB shortly before she and Oliver left on the Gambit.

[statsgirl]

The way they wrote Laurel in even the first two episodes killed any storyline of her being Oliver's confidante. She was just too angry and blaming him without show any awareness or sympathy for what he had gone through.

1 hour ago, kismet said:

My thought was that if they waited for her to be in a mask, they would have had her operate as her own crime fighting unit like SL did in s2. That she would not join TA until after the reveal.

They would have had to start her off being good at fighting and martial arts, like @Primal Slayer 's scenario above.

I think they had written the script and didn't realize that KC wasn't being what they needed Laurel to be until they started filming and saw the dailies.  And then it was too late to make the changes.  It's bizarre though that they didn't put in anything about her being a good fighter even though they knew she was going to be the BC in s3.

59 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

They could have written her journey into becoming BC but if they got a bad feedback for LL and thought other stories were better for the show why telling a story they didn't want to tell? It seems to me in season 2 they tried a few things with the character to see if they could find a way to make her work.

They kept writing stories for Laurel though. They gave her her own addiction arc, as bad written as it was.  There had to be some place between writing her as involved as she was in 1A and putting heron her own little island with her own storyline.  Even something as small as following up on her friendship with Thea would have made a difference.

[Mellowyellow]

I always got the impression that she knew him on a superficial level and didn't know the real him at all.

She was also arrogant and liked to act like she knew him thereby killing any chances of her actually trying to learn about him and grow with him. 

He always treated her like she was some nag that was always demanding things off him. It wasn't the best of friendships either. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think pre island the one person Oliver would have relied on if he needed to was his mother, in fact he went to her when he got Samantha pregnant. Other than that he probably went to Tommy for less important things but I have no troubles thinking his other relationships (other friends, Laurel and Sara) were superficial because they presented him as a careless person.

It's also significant to me that how the people from his old life treated him when he came back..it was like they didn't know or understand him at all. Digg after meeting him once got him more than them.

6 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

 

They kept writing stories for Laurel though. They gave her her own addiction arc, as bad written as it was.  There had to be some place between writing her as involved as she was in 1A and putting heron her own little island with her own storyline.  Even something as small as following up on her friendship with Thea would have made a difference.

Like I said to me it looked like they were trying to find her a place on the show since they had to keep her. But I think they abandoned their original plan and also would have written her off if possible because they struggled a lot to make her fit after the very beginning..

[kismet]

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

They could have but what I'm saying is that there was no interest in doing that and it wasn't mandatory anyway. If the initial idea was to have the trio Oliver/Laurel/Tommy as three characters with more or less the same importance (maybe setting up Tommy to be Oliver's nemesis) it was abandoned pretty early on and it became Oliver's story. At that point the rest of the characters are given importance if they are important to the story of the main character and Laurel stopped being relevant.

They could have written her journey into becoming BC but if they got a bad feedback for LL and thought other stories were better for the show why telling a story they didn't want to tell? It seems to me in season 2 they tried a few things with the character to see if they could find a way to make her work. The weird part comes when they killed Sara and made Laurel BC in that rushed way and with motivations that keep changing during the episodes but I think the weirdness comes from the fact that they had to keep changing their plans. I think if they could they would have written her off, instead they had to struggle to find a place for her on the show for years and the result wasn't that good.

Just because a lot of us here have little interest, does not mean there was interest in having LL, BC, or KC get a well written storyline. MG even posted & responded to part of that audience in his tumblr & social media. Now, if the writers had no interest I just don't believe that all the way. It's too much of a generalization, and she did have her fans in the writers room. Whether or not she fit well into their evolving journey & arc for the show, well there is some evidence that they struggled to find the best place to put her. I do not believe it was because of lack of interest, but rather perhaps just poor writing or planning.

It seems they did get some bad feedback, but that happens with all characters. There can also be a point made, that nothing stuck because they kept on changing their minds. And for me, I didn't love the addiction storyline, but I thought it worked for her character and was interested in it. I think they didn't follow through or resolve it in a realistic manner (which is classic Arrow) - but it was an interesting & believable crucible to give someone. And after losing Wildcat to another show, that ship sailed to build up her journey in s3.

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't know why they spent so much time building Sara's character in season 2 if their intention was to abruptly dump her in the garbage. They said Sara was part Laurel's journey, but they didn't even talk to each other until episode 13. Even after that Sara still spent a majority of her time with Team Arrow not Laurel. They shared maybe a handful of scenes where they talked about Oliver and nothing about what Sara's been through or her crime fighting. 

How does that translate to Sara being part of Laurel's journey? She basically took Sara mask and name because she wanted to be special. They even had Oliver say Sara wouldn't want that life for Laurel. So she became a vigilante against her dead sisters wishes. 

I was thinking of this earlier and I was think it was just a short-cut for the writers to give all the stuff to SL. Then kill her off dramatically and have LL just pick up the baton and acquire all the skills that come with the mask. It was really a cheap way of doing it. And on another show it might have worked. But considering Arrow is an origin show, and have painstakingly showed us all 5 years of his origin - that shortcut was not going to fly on Arrow, especially when there are no magical or superpowers. It really was asking a lot for the audience to swallow. Because they had failed to really tell LL's origin or set it up properly, they just decided SL was an option to get that origin story on the air. What they should have done in s2 was have SL train her sister as a means of bonding with her, then they could overcome their post s1 failure to set-up LL's fighting origin. Plus I would have believed then that LL was really honoring her sister's legacy and not just SWF her. It boggles my mind, that they get paid millions of dollars to write these characters and yet can't figure out a way to do it even half properly.

2 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Like I said to me it looked like they were trying to find her a place on the show since they had to keep her. But I think they abandoned their original plan and also would have written her off if possible because they struggled a lot to make her fit after the very beginning..

She was never going to get written off earlier than her contract was written of that I am almost certain. She was always going to mask up and live until at least s4 or s5. They needed someone for those death slots. In retrospect, Tommy, Moira & Sara were obvious kills for their seasons, if you were looking at the whole gameboard like the writers are able to. And I wonder if her special contract in s5 was given as part of the settlement for ending her contract earlier than the initial 5 years.

[statsgirl]

SA, CD and KC all got 7 year contracts when they signed up for the show.  But a contract only binds the actor, not the show.

25 minutes ago, kismet said:

What they should have done in s2 was have SL train her sister as a means of bonding with her, then they could overcome their post s1 failure to set-up LL's fighting origin. Plus I would have believed then that LL was really honoring her sister's legacy and not just SWF her.

Now that would have made sense.

[kismet]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

SA, CD and KC all got 7 year contracts when they signed up for the show.  But a contract only binds the actor, not the show.

I thought it was 5 with an option for 2 extra years, but neither here nor there. Either way I think there was some clause or high pay out that guaranteed KC the BC moniker/mask & a certain number of seasons.

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 hours ago, kismet said:

Just because a lot of us here have little interest, does not mean there was interest in having LL, BC, or KC get a well written storyline. MG even posted & responded to part of that audience in his tumblr & social media. Now, if the writers had no interest I just don't believe that all the way. It's too much of a generalization, and she did have her fans in the writers room. Whether or not she fit well into their evolving journey & arc for the show, well there is some evidence that they struggled to find the best place to put her. I do not believe it was because of lack of interest, but rather perhaps just poor writing or planning.

It seems they did get some bad feedback, but that happens with all characters. There can also be a point made, that nothing stuck because they kept on changing their minds. And for me, I didn't love the addiction storyline, but I thought it worked for her character and was interested in it. I think they didn't follow through or resolve it in a realistic manner (which is classic Arrow) - but it was an interesting & believable crucible to give someone. And after losing Wildcat to another show, that ship sailed to build up her journey in s3.

I was thinking of this earlier and I was think it was just a short-cut for the writers to give all the stuff to SL. Then kill her off dramatically and have LL just pick up the baton and acquire all the skills that come with the mask. It was really a cheap way of doing it. And on another show it might have worked. But considering Arrow is an origin show, and have painstakingly showed us all 5 years of his origin - that shortcut was not going to fly on Arrow, especially when there are no magical or superpowers. It really was asking a lot for the audience to swallow. Because they had failed to really tell LL's origin or set it up properly, they just decided SL was an option to get that origin story on the air. What they should have done in s2 was have SL train her sister as a means of bonding with her, then they could overcome their post s1 failure to set-up LL's fighting origin. Plus I would have believed then that LL was really honoring her sister's legacy and not just SWF her. It boggles my mind, that they get paid millions of dollars to write these characters and yet can't figure out a way to do it even half properly.

She was never going to get written off earlier than her contract was written of that I am almost certain. She was always going to mask up and live until at least s4 or s5. They needed someone for those death slots. In retrospect, Tommy, Moira & Sara were obvious kills for their seasons, if you were looking at the whole gameboard like the writers are able to. And I wonder if her special contract in s5 was given as part of the settlement for ending her contract earlier than the initial 5 years.

I didn't say there was no interest in the character in general, I said I think there was a lack on interest in writing for her the story you wanted them to write. Initially they had a plan, they changed their minds because of what they/network/WB/audience thought work and didn't work and there was no interest at that point in writing for her the story they initially thought about since the show changed so much (focus shifted on Oliver and OTA, Tommy getting killed off). Imo they have tried to find her a new place on the show after season 1 that wasn't a BC origin story and haven't succeeded. They could have written her becoming a vigilante independently from Oliver and the team, training on her own but that clearly wasn't what they wanted to do with the character since they did none of that. In this sense I said there was no interest. They went back on the BC train once they decided to kill Sara off.

They all had 7 years contracts and we know from the paps they wanted to write her off or recast her since season 1 but the network didn't approve of that.

[BkWurm1]

It's funny, none of the suggestions posted are that different from scenarios that we've all posted about and pitched before.  The same essential bit always shows up.  Give her more training right from the start.  Tone down the rage.  Give her a reason to want to take matters in her own hands.  DON'T have Oliver sleep with her sister, lol.  And if Sara was always going to be that bridge, let them actually bond and work together.  It's frustrating since nothing suggested should have been that hard for any of their writers to come up.  It all feels like common sense no brainer stuff.  And yet...

I don't think I'll ever understand the thought process behind their choices.  I think that's why it's hard not to embrace the conspiracy theories.  They honestly make an illogical process make sense. The alternative is just sheer incompetency and I'd get behind that theory but as awful as they are with other characters, they've never come near the level that they have with Laurel.  IMO.     

[kismet]

3 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

It's funny, none of the suggestions posted are that different from scenarios that we've all posted about and pitched before.  The same essential bit always shows up.  Give her more training right from the start.  Tone down the rage.  Give her a reason to want to take matters in her own hands.  DON'T have Oliver sleep with her sister, lol.  And if Sara was always going to be that bridge, let them actually bond and work together.  It's frustrating since nothing suggested should have been that hard for any of their writers to come up.  It all feels like common sense no brainer stuff.  And yet...

I don't think I'll ever understand the thought process behind their choices.  I think that's why it's hard not to embrace the conspiracy theories.  They honestly make an illogical process make sense. The alternative is just sheer incompetency and I'd get behind that theory but as awful as they are with other characters, they've never come near the level that they have with Laurel.  IMO.     

IDK, they are getting pretty close with some of the characters for me. And I do wonder how incompetently Tommy, Moira, or Roy would have become if they were allowed to live on. I get wanting to believe the conspiracy theories. I believe some. I just think the belief that the character was a lost cause is bullocks. We have planned and pitched a lot of ways the character could have worked with little alteration or casting. Which makes me think that sheer incompetency does factor into it, or at least an inability to understand & synthesis constructive critiques. They were almost so bullheaded about LL and living in some little bubble about her. She was completely in their blindspot.

How I imagined the writer's room every season trying to address the problems with LL.

[wonderwall]

41 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

I can't even remember a single decent stunt that KC did on screen, do you consider screaming and then winking a stunt? I don't know how someone looks uncoordinated while running, but KC managed to do that on screen. 

 

LOL Oh we're doing this? Fun! 

I don't know if you consider this a stunt. but this is hilarious

LOL this one was particularly bad

That time she punches the US Marhsal (couldn't find a gif but she clearly missed lmao)

KC was just so hilariously unqualified for this job... What a shame...

Edited May 23, 2017 by wonderwall

[SmallScreenDiva]

On 4/11/2017 at 7:14 PM, statsgirl said:

They kept writing stories for Laurel though. They gave her her own addiction arc, as bad written as it was. 

Her addiction arc was a means to keep her as far away from the main story as possible. It's not because they want to develop the character. They had to justify what they were paying her, and KC was probably the second most expensive actor on the show at the time. So they gave her her own "arc." 

[SmallScreenDiva]

Seeing those gifs again reminded me of something a friend had asked: Why is Laurel's main weapon a tonfa? Did the show ever provide an explanation? I don't know why Sara uses a bo staff either but I'm not really curious because I can explain it as a weapon she learned to use/favor during her time with the League. But Laurel, we saw her evolution (bad as it may be) to BC and never once did I see her pick up a tonfa before she showed up in her dominatrix gear. She wields it like a police baton, they should just have given her one. Because a tonfa actually has many uses but she just uses it as a blunt stick. That's the stunt team/fight coordinator's fault.

[Primal Slayer]

5 hours ago, wonderwall said:

LOL Oh we're doing this? Fun! 

I don't know if you consider this a stunt. but this is hilarious

LOL this one was particularly bad

That time she punches the US Marhsal (couldn't find a gif but she clearly missed lmao)

KC was just so hilariously unqualified for this job... What a shame...

But i thought they didn't allow her to do stunts?

[wonderwall]

12 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

But i thought they didn't allow her to do stunts?

IDK who ever said that but if only lol. I know KC does some of her stunts, but she's so hilariously terrible at them (looking at the examples and her previous work).

Which, all actors have their strengths and weaknesses. This just happens to be one of KCs. Which is one of the reasons why I think she was a terrible miscast for the role. She just isn't believable as a fighter for me.

YMMV though *shrugs*

Edited May 23, 2017 by wonderwall

[SmallScreenDiva]

The CW should have listened to Kim Manners (SPN director). He called KC one of the most "uncoordinated" actresses he's worked with (or was it he's seen?) when she was playing Ruby over at Supernatural. But Arrow still cast her as BC, apparently one of the best fighters in DC comics, LMFAO! 

[Starfish35]

1 hour ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

Seeing those gifs again reminded me of something a friend had asked: Why is Laurel's main weapon a tonfa? Did the show ever provide an explanation? I don't know why Sara uses a bo staff either but I'm not really curious because I can explain it as a weapon she learned to use/favor during her time with the League. But Laurel, we saw her evolution (bad as it may be) to BC and never once did I see her pick up a tonfa before she showed up in her dominatrix gear. She wields it like a police baton, they should just have given her one. Because a tonfa actually has many uses but she just uses it as a blunt stick. That's the stunt team/fight coordinator's fault.

Ehhhhh.  My personal theory is that KC is just so uncoordinated that they were just trying to find something that she could hold and look cool.  I remember when she started out she was trying to use Sara's bo staff and she was awful at it.  Which fair enough, she's new, but still.  There was that one gif of her walking with it held straight in front of her where she looked like some sort of robot.

[wonderwall]

1 minute ago, Starfish35 said:

Ehhhhh.  My personal theory is that KC is just so uncoordinated that they were just trying to find something that she could hold and look cool.  I remember when she started out she was trying to use Sara's bo staff and she was awful at it.  Which fair enough, she's new, but still.  There was that one gif of her walking with it held straight in front of her where she looked like some sort of robot.

For a woman who spent the summer supposedly training to take on the role... I'm not gonna give her any slack for not being able to use the bo staff. For god's sake she couldn't even walk with it lmao 

I mean good for her for jacking up her arms during the summer but she should've focused more on martial arts/boxing etc. considering we wouldn't even be able to see how defined her arms through the suit anyways. 

I even doubt she spent any time taking lessons during her 'time off'. She doesn't really seem very invested to commit which is unfortunate.

[Starfish35]

3 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

For a woman who spent the summer supposedly training to take on the role... I'm not gonna give her any slack for not being able to use the bo staff. For god's sake she couldn't even walk with it lmao 

lol I should have been more clear - I meant Laurel was new to using it.  But as you say, KC couldn't even walk with it, so I'll bet the stunt crew was just like "here, hold this".  Lol.  I was embarrassed for her that time she tried to show off using it on stage and just couldn't do it.  

Edited May 23, 2017 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

Just now, Starfish35 said:

lol I should have been more clear - I meant Laurel was new to using it.  But as you say, KC couldn't even walk with it, so I'll bet the stunt crew was just like "here, hold this".  Lol.

LOL! It's not hard to walk with one :p But then this is the same person who didn't know that the gun wasn't loaded so... 

Laurel is just dumb... Remember the time she didn't even have a plan on trying Damien Dahrk? Lol yeah, she's dumb all around so I shouldn't be surprised if she doesn't know how to walk with a bo staff.

[ladylaw99]

I have always tried to stay neutral  when it came to KC (never neutral about LL/BC - that character kills me).  I have never seen her in anything until Arrow but reading some of her interviews all I get is she delusional about LL/BC.  I just hope she doesn't play BS the same way.

[Morrigan2575]

17 hours ago, Starfish35 said:

Ehhhhh.  My personal theory is that KC is just so uncoordinated that they were just trying to find something that she could hold and look cool.  I remember when she started out she was trying to use Sara's bo staff and she was awful at it.  Which fair enough, she's new, but still.  There was that one gif of her walking with it held straight in front of her where she looked like some sort of robot.

Well, the late great Kim Manners did call her horribly uncoordinated (from her SPN run)

[SmallScreenDiva]

50 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Well, the late great Kim Manners did call her horribly uncoordinated (from her SPN run)

Do you remember if he said that in an interview or a video, and if so, do you have a link? I remember that from her SPN days but I can't remember if it was something I'd read or watched.

[Sakura12]

I love the scene where Sara and Laurel are sparring and you could tell CL was sparring with the stunt performer for most it, but the shots where we did see KC's face she looked terrified because CL was moving so much faster than her. 

I guess KC thought that all she needed to do was look like CL and didn't think about the fact that CL spent years training in dance, stunts and martial arts. All the pics she posted were her working out in a gym not doing any kind of martial arts or weapons training. While CL took archery lessons to hold a bow twice without ever actually using it on the show.

[Cleanqueen]

41 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I love the scene where Sara and Laurel are sparring and you could tell CL was sparring with the stunt performer for most it, but the shots where we did see KC's face she looked terrified because CL was moving so much faster than her. 

I guess KC thought that all she needed to do was look like CL and didn't think about the fact that CL spent years training in dance, stunts and martial arts. All the pics she posted were her working out in a gym not doing any kind of martial arts or weapons training. While CL took archery lessons to hold a bow twice without ever actually using it on the show.

and it was always just pictures, not even a video of her working out. Compare that to how many videos of Emily and Stephen and even the other actors Thomas shared. 

[Primal Slayer]

Not even videos of her working out??? Or are you just talking about her weapon/fight training?

[Starfish35]

On 5/24/2017 at 10:23 AM, SmallScreenDiva said:

Do you remember if he said that in an interview or a video, and if so, do you have a link? I remember that from her SPN days but I can't remember if it was something I'd read or watched.

I was waiting to see if someone else with a better memory answered this.  But... I seem to recall someone on the TWoP board saying it was from one of the official Companion books.   Probably this one, since that was her season, or possibly the season immediately following, when they brought in the replacement Ruby.  But I don't have any of those so cannot confirm this.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Starfish35

[Chaser]

Honestly the lack of physical coordination didn't bug me nearly as much as the lack of facial awareness.

[johntfs]

Somebody on the Stephen King Message Board started a thread for the most unlikable characters on TV and I nominated Laurel Lance from Arrow seasons 1-4.  Ironically, even though she's playing Black Siren an evil, kind of bitchy villain, I like her better in that role.

Edited June 24, 2017 by johntfs

[statsgirl]

The Black Siren role is a much better fit for KC's acting strengths.   I never understood why they didn't play up the bitchy parts of Laurel in season 1 - 4, whether it was DC preventing them from making Laurel Lance a grey character or if the EPs were just afraid to.

[Primal Slayer]

They definitely should've made the character more of a wise cracker, that was always when she was at her best.

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

They definitely should've made the character more of a wise cracker, that was always when she was at her best.

Also, the overall effect was a bit like when Samuel L Jackson played Mace Windu in the Star Wars prequels.  Sam Jackson is an emotive, explosive actor at his best when he has a scene allowing him to display his character's passion.  Mace Windu was a Jedi and supposed to be calm, controlled and understated at all times.  By forcing Katie to play against her acting strengths, I think the show-runners made Laurel come off as fake.  She was always seemed to put up a false front and you can't really like someone  who isn't genuine.

It's one reason I really disliked Oliver until Felicity helped bring out his humanity.

Edited June 25, 2017 by johntfs

[wonderwall]

The problem is that the show required Cassidy to play her character with nuance and that's not her forte. She is a very one dimensional actress. She can do the extremes pretty well but when it comes to portraying more than 1 or even 2 emotions at the same time she fails. 

That was my biggest issue in season 1. Laurel was supposed to be angry at Oliver but she was also supposed to have a sense of softness towards him especially if they were ever going to get back to being love interests. But Cassidy fell short and she came off as ONLY angry. That's why it was really jarring when she switched from being angry to kissing Oliver in episode 3 or 4. 

Cassidy definitely plays a better villain... But that's not really saying much considering the bar was held spectacularly low in the first place.

Edited June 25, 2017 by wonderwall

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, wonderwall said:

The problem is that the show required Cassidy to play her character with nuance and that's not her forte. She is a very one dimensional actress. She can do the extremes pretty well but when it comes to portraying more than 1 or even 2 emotions at the same time she fails. 

That was my biggest issue in season 1. Laurel was supposed to be angry at Oliver but she was also supposed to have a sense of softness towards him especially if they were ever going to get back to being love interests. But Cassidy fell short and she came off as ONLY angry. That's why it was really jarring when she switched from being angry to kissing Oliver in episode 3 or 4. 

Cassidy definitely plays a better villain... But that's not really saying much considering the bar was held spectacularly low in the first place.

One other thing that really hurt the Laurel character was that her role on the show was defined exclusively by her personal relationship with Oliver.  It's like her job was "angry ex-fiance."  Felicity worked better because she has an important role beyond being Oliver's "love muffin."  Even through Season 5 when she was dating another guy, she was at the Arrowcave getting info, working, well, Overwatch.  Even if Oliver got killed, Felicity would likely continue in her role, just maybe on a TV show called Spartan.

One of the worst things for Laurel is they had a pretty good opening for that with Laurel's non-profit.  If they'd showed Laurel focused on doing legally what Oliver was trying to do extra-legally.  Give Laurel some of her own power.  Have her be followed and threatened by some rich guy's thug with Oliver about to jump in to save and she suddenly tasers the guy in the nuts and tells him his boss is next.  Like that.  Don't do the training to turn Laurel into a badass, show how she already is one.  Don't do some technological canary cry.  Let her get real meta powers in Season 3 since you're already setting up The Flash anyway.

Edited June 25, 2017 by johntfs

[bijoux]

Are you using ex-fiance to make a point? Because she and Oliver were never anywhere near to getting engaged.

[Morrigan2575]

5 hours ago, wonderwall said:

The problem is that the show required Cassidy to play her character with nuance and that's not her forte. She is a very one dimensional actress. She can do the extremes pretty well but when it comes to portraying more than 1 or even 2 emotions at the same time she fails. 

 

Cassidy definitely plays a better villain... But that's not really saying much considering the bar was held spectacularly low in the first place.

You're way more charitable to KC then I am. As far as I can see she can't act. Period.

She fails at everything that an actor should do in a scene. She can't/doesn't emote; change her body language; facial expression; voice (cadence or pitch). There's no way to tell what the character is supposed to feel/think because all she does is deliver lines.

Case in point, 522. WTF was Black Siren thinking in that scene with Lance (at the safe house)? Was she playing him? Did she really care?  Paul Blackthorne/Lance and Willa/Thea have every emotion on display and, KC is a fucking block of wood, nothing there.

Her delivery of the daddy line makes no sense when you take in the emotionless acting. Yes, I'm sure her defenders will point to the follow up/chained scene but, then go to 523 and there's nothing. Not only can KC NOT do nuance, she can't even understand what she's supposed to do in a scene because she doesn't understand the scenes she's in. 

Her "acting" consists of look down/look up, deliver line. Her angry/upset "acting" consists of taking a deep breath and deliver line. Her tough "acting" consists of crossing arms and delivering line, etc etc. Tough walk = runway walk, badass villain walk = drunk walk etc. Oh and let's not forget the follow to laser pointer acting in 218.

I don't consider that good acting I can barely lable it as acting. Is she better as a bitchy character? Sure but, that's IMO damning with faint praise. Well, she's not absolute Dog Shit like when she tried to act as Laurel. Doesn't make her good though (IMO). 

[quarks]

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

One other thing that really hurt the Laurel character was that her role on the show was defined exclusively by her personal relationship with Oliver.  It's like her job was "angry ex-fiance."  Felicity worked better because she has an important role beyond being Oliver's "love muffin."  Even through Season 5 when she was dating another guy, she was at the Arrowcave getting info, working, well, Overwatch.  Even if Oliver got killed, Felicity would likely continue in her role, just maybe on a TV show called Spartan.

One of the worst things for Laurel is they had a pretty good opening for that with Laurel's non-profit.  If they'd showed Laurel focused on doing legally what Oliver was trying to do extra-legally.  Give Laurel some of her own power.  Have her be followed and threatened by some rich guy's thug with Oliver about to jump in to save and she suddenly tasers the guy in the nuts and tells him his boss is next.  Like that.  Don't do the training to turn Laurel into a badass, show how she already is one.  Don't do some technological canary cry.  Let her get real meta powers in Season 3 since you're already setting up The Flash anyway.

The first five episodes of Arrow suggest that having Laurel pursue things legally as Oliver pursued things extra-legally was the original plan. Arrow set up an office for Laurel, complete with an attorney friend. In episodes 1, 2 and 4, she pursues the same villains Oliver did, and there's a couple of lines in the script for episode 2 where the villains suggest that they need to fear her.  Laurel and the Hood also have some conversations about the law versus vigilantism, and in episode 4, Oliver notes that he can't help the victim of the week - the guy needs an attorney.  In episodes 2 and 4, Laurel has as much (2) or nearly as much (4) screentime as present day Oliver (he has more overall screentime only because of the flashbacks). She and Quentin (the other "law" side) were also introduced with their own supporting casts. It seems pretty clear that the plan was to introduce a villain of the week, pursued by Laurel and Oliver, with help from Quentin and the cops, with Arrow going back and forth with whether the legal or vigilante approach was more effective.  She was also setup to be a badass - episode 3 showed us that Laurel was capable of fighting, something season 3 later forgot.

For whatever reason, this plan - along with the plan to have Thea slowly figure out that Oliver was the Hood - was abruptly abandoned after episode 5.  KC/Laurel's screentime was drastically cut - rather than the 15 to 20 minutes per episode she was originally given, she dropped to five to seven minutes or even less for the rest of the season - in a couple of episodes, she has only two minutes of screentime.  Diggle and Felicity, not Laurel, started helping Oliver research the cases of the week. Arrow continued to portray Laurel as a workaholic, but we didn't see her work on any specific cases again until 510 - an episode where Laurel's friend, not Laurel, had suspicions about what was going on, and where Laurel pretty much immediately decided that she couldn't really investigate this on her own (in complete contrast to her attitude in the first two episodes) and called the Hood.  With the exception of her personal research into Sara, that ended her investigations on the show until the next season. Her lawyer friend pretty much left the show and the CRNI set was used as part of the "Thea stops being just a rich brat" storyline and "let's kill off Tommy for paperwork" instead of a location to launch investigations, and Laurel was reduced from co-lead to supporting, never getting back her original 15-20 minutes per episode and lead investigative role, even in the third season when she returned to a somewhat more prominent role in the show.

Regarding the Canary Cry in the third season - I think Arrow was a bit stuck there. The second season had established that Quentin Lance was in the hospital during the metahuman creating reactor incident, so Laurel would presumably have been visiting him rather than her mother in Central City.  If she had been in Central City - well, this was during the "we have got to make Laurel a touch more likable stage" and retconning that she'd abandoned her father in the hospital wouldn't have helped. Arrow did have a brief moment later on, with Ray and Cisco, suggesting that metahumans also appeared outside Central City, but I don't think this was something Arrow really wanted to run with, since this would have forced them to add more metahumans to the Arrow villains rather than having the metahumans as occasional threats, but mostly a Flash thing, to help differentiate the shows.

[wonderwall]

Not only that - Laurel had been given the opportunity to be more likable when she started dating Tommy. And with rose colored glasses you can almost say that she actually was a more likable character around him, but when you look at their relationship, Laurel came off absolutely horribly. Cassidy, while she did become looser with Colin, couldn't save the cluster she was given by the writers. The double date with Oliver/McKenna, Laurel refusing to accept Tommy's help for a benefit (which... why?! Stop being such a selfish idiot Laurel and think about the people who need it), etc. So even in that aspect she failed. Honestly, her getting together with Tommy while she knows she's drawn to the Hood/Oliver made her such an asshole because Colin made Tommy so likable that it was hard not to want the best for him.

I mean there were a few moments in season 1 where I kind of felt bad for her - like when Quentin used her - but those moments were so few and far between that they hardly mattered. It didn't change my opinion of her. 

[marihunc]

2 hours ago, quarks said:

Regarding the Canary Cry in the third season - I think Arrow was a bit stuck there. The second season had established that Quentin Lance was in the hospital during the metahuman creating reactor incident, so Laurel would presumably have been visiting him rather than her mother in Central City.  If she had been in Central City - well, this was during the "we have got to make Laurel a touch more likable stage" and retconning that she'd abandoned her father in the hospital wouldn't have helped. Arrow did have a brief moment later on, with Ray and Cisco, suggesting that metahumans also appeared outside Central City, but I don't think this was something Arrow really wanted to run with, since this would have forced them to add more metahumans to the Arrow villains rather than having the metahumans as occasional threats, but mostly a Flash thing, to help differentiate the shows.

Actually, the particle accelerator exploded at the end of 2x09, when Barry got back to CC, and back then Laurel was still in her drunk, pill-popping phase. :)