Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[wonderwall]

But seriously it was weirder for me that she wants to take SA in the ring. I don't get her need to always directly challenge him to physical stunts - first the salmon ladder, now this fight thing. He's been doing stunts for over 3 years now and spent the off season training for WWE. It's naive to think her year of training (being generous here) is enough to seriously challenge him. I really think she should learn to focus on herself and stop trying to attach herself to him & what he can do. We get it KC, you've been working out and training, why not just tell the audience about all the great new skills or martial art/stunt schools you have been studying under. IDK, it just always feels a little like she's trying to hard when it comes to SA.

 

I saw this too. I thought it was weird, but decided to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she was probably (hopefully) just joking? Because there's no way she could take him on. I think the only person who could on the show is David Ramsey. 

[kismet]

I saw this too. I thought it was weird, but decided to give her the benefit of the doubt and say that she was probably (hopefully) just joking? Because there's no way she could take him on. I think the only person who could on the show is David Ramsey. 

I think Caity Lotz could as well, but she is not on ARROW anymore :(

[Chaser]

Has she ever done a video with him? I know DR and EBR have done a couple and PB had done at least one.

I could of feel she is campaigning for one. The Salmon Ladder comments about him teaching her and recording it and now (possibly) calling him out. Her work outs seem to be impressive but I have serious doubts she could go toe to toe with him.

Edited September 28, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[AyChihuahua]

IRL David Ramsey would kick SA's ass.  He kickboxes, and he's ginormous.  They would also realistically both destroy Caity Lotz.  She is absolutely awesome, but a strong dude gets one hit in on a woman and she's done.  That is why I hated, hated, all the people who were being aholes about the girl Mike Tyson raped years ago, bc she didn't "fight back."  A man built like that hits a woman one time and she's likely dead.

[Delphi]

Training is an important factor, regardless of size. I've seen a 5'7 petite young police woman simultaneously take down two hugely well built men in a matter of seconds. I'm not saying Caity would win, but she wouldn't just fall over.

[AyChihuahua]

She could keep her distance and get some hits in, but they wouldn't really affect the guys.  She's not a real life ninja, so she doesn't know like nerve pinches or anything.  All they'd have to do is hit her once.  Plus they're both well-trained.  I also think I'd need to see some evidence re a small woman simultaneously taking down two large men w/o her having a weapon.  

Edited September 28, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Primal Slayer]

Caity Lotz could probably kick SA ass if it came down to it. Everyone takes hits differently.

 

I think Katie could've become more open to Olicity after watching them together this season since they are now a couple and she could like them together. 

 

As far as her challenging SA to things, I chalk it up to more then just fun banter to show that she can hang with the guys, even Willa said that she is better then SA at archery now. I don't remember her challenging him to the Salmon Ladder, just that she believes she could do it and wants to do it. He is suppose to show her. But to me it is normal that she would want to show off all of her training by wanting to tackle it since it isn't the easiest thing in the world and it is practically a right of passage into the badass group for the show. I want to see her take it on. 

[Hipkarma]

There are times for me when the phrase "Empty vessels make the most noise" is brought strongly to mind. I don't know about anyone else's experience, but for me, the men and women I respect the most for their skills and abilities in both the services and the martial worlds are quiet and unassuming. They prefer to "go quietly"  with or without the big stick. Just my experience though. I find chest beating to be precisely that for the most part.

[Primal Slayer]

Well pretty much everyone on this show likes to "chest beat". Majority of it is just for fun though.

[tarotx]

I don't have issues with being proud of yourself and laughing with the other actors about who's bigger, stronger, tougher etc....  KC kind of comes off a bit lacking in self confidence so talks big. I think she wants to be included in the stunt/fight club but instead of getting things done off screen she dreams about it at cons with her fans. 

[Primal Slayer]

She's talked about doing her own stunts and them letting her get in some here and there.  She wouldn't put in half the work she does if it was all talk and no show.

[statsgirl]

She's posted some pretty impressive pictures of her workouts and I think said that she works out 3 hours a day so while I'm not sure about the salmon ladder (even Caity could only do a couple of rungs), I'm pretty sure she could kick my ass in terms of stunts.

[Chaser]

At the SDCC cast interview, she volunteered she could do the salmon ladder when Willa said she was asked but couldn't. However at her round table interview she was asked if she can do the ladder and she said no but SA gave her advice on it. A few months later and she is saying the same thing.

If she could do the salmon ladder, they would put it in in a heartbeat. SA said they haven't had a training scene together and it didn't sound like anything was planned at the moment. Those training scenes require more of the actors.

I remember Kim Manners on Supernatutal saying she was very uncoordinated. Which made me think of that boxing scene with Grant with her flailing around and her awful form when she punched that guy outside the court side.

KC is clearly in amazing shape and puts in the hours, but If she doesn't have some natural ability training only gets you so far. But I think she really wants to be recognized like SA and CL are and she just isn't there right now. I don't blame her for that at all.

Edited September 28, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Primal Slayer]

She's been consistent with her Salmon Ladder answers from what I can remember. She wants to tackle it, believes she can do it, talked to the stunt coordinator about showing her the ropes of it and they want SA to show her. It isn't something they would probably rush into in a heartbeat, she has to be shown how to do it and if she could, they aren't just going to rush it into a scene with how tight this first half of the season is at the moment.

[Chaser]

If she wants to do it, why not learn it? Why does she need to talk to the stunt coordinator and not her trainer? Why SA? Why not ask DR? Why doesn't she just ask instead of waiting for the high ups to ask?

She clearly wants to be able to do it.

[Primal Slayer]

Maybe her trainer hasn't done the Salmon Ladder? The stunt coordinator said they want SA to show her, SA knows she wants to do it. Thus she did ask, she works with these people who know how to do it. There is no need to ask DR to show her when they've already directed her to SA, plus I doubt DR will be doing anything serious due to his back injury. Now it is just a matter of setting the necessary time aside to actually do it. 

[Chaser]

Its not a big deal but it's something she had talked about for quite awhile and since you can learn to do it off YouTube, I would think it's something she would take the incentive to do esp given how motivated she is in being in shape (which clearly shows). But who knows, maybe the showrunners told her she has to wait for SA to make time.

Edited cause it was a bit snippy.

Edited September 28, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[TanyaKay]

How would an Amell/Cassidy fight look inside a ring? It would go with Amell holding her whole body with just one hand while holding his phone & going Facebook live with other hand.

[kismet]

KC talks a big talk, hopefully for her she can back it up. I'll believe her new & improved fighting ability when I see it. As for 3 hours training, that doesn't seem like whole lot, considering how much ground she has to make up. I know people that put 3hrs in just to look physically good, it wouldn't have helped them in a martial arts or hands-on battle. A lot of hours can be put in, but they don't always make up for lack of natural ability and to me it doesn't seem like fighting looked like a natural ability to her last season. But good for her that she is putting in the time.

 

Honestly, the physics of the Salmon Ladder does not seem that hard to figure out. To do it is another story, that requires actual practice/training. There is no magical way to get up & down it, that requires this much asking around. By the second time KC mentioned it in an interview/con she could have found the answer out by going to any extreme gym. Heck it's probably on YouTube. It's on American Ninja Warrior and other shows, it seems like part of an out of the box/extreme gym experience. She should just say she's working on it, as opposed to making it seem like this really hard answer to figure out how to do it. Or better yet, just do what DR did and randomly bust it out while on set, with no real prompting, pomp & circumstance.

[Sakura12]

Why does she need anyone on the Arrow set to teach her? She can just go to a parkour gym and have someone there teach her. If she wants to do it, she needs to stop talking about and go do it.

 

It seems like she wants the same experience CL had, where the Stunt team asked if she wanted to do it, she said yes so they and SA helped her train. She keeps thinking she's the same as CL who has been dancing her whole life, took martial arts since she was little and started training as a stunt woman years before she was up for a part on Arrow. While she only started training last year. She needs to slow her roll or go do it and brag about it after she's done it. 

 

That's another thing that bothers me, she's always bragging about how badass she is. CL's never does that, she doesn't talk about it, she just shows us on the show what she's capable of. In fact she's the one that mentioned that she could only do two rungs. She didn't try to pretend she was so awesome at it. Her skill set is in the fight scenes not in the strength ones. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[BkWurm1]

I'm trying to hold back judgment on the Salmon Ladder but she's now been talking about it since the end of June. I suppose she might legitimately have been too busy in the last three months to seek out a gym with the ladder and I can sympathize with psyching yourself up a head of time and I know I tend to talk about even doing a load of laundry before I actually do it but at this point all the talk backed up with no action is getting embarrassing.

For her sake I hope she either gets it done or discourages the conversation in the future. Even a not yet and a subject change would be fine. It's the at length discussion of the plan or why it hasn't happened yet that is making me cringe.

Edited September 28, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Primal Slayer]

Basically anything can be found on youtube, doesn't mean that people will use it just because. Hell there wouldn't be a need for personal trainers then. Maybe she doesn't feel like seeking out alternative ways just yet when she has a whole team of people on her show that can show her how to do the salmon ladder. But working out 3 hours of day when you shoot for 10+ hours a day is a long time, if she put in anymore time she would just be going from gym to show every day when personal life and other work related things still exists. 

[kismet]

Well, she only recently started filming again so she wasn't really shooting 10hrs over the summer when some of those work-outs happened. So who really knows what her availability to work out is now? I personally usually work 12-13hr shifts with barely time to go to the bathroom or even take a solid 30 mins of uninterrupted time to eat. So I really have no sympathy for her needing to find time in her day to work-out when that is part of her job requirement. It's not like they are on location for 10+ hrs and there are no places to work-out, I'm pretty sure there are other actors that are in similar situations on sets throughout the world.

 

If she wants to do the Salmon Ladder, she should stop talking about it and just do it. But I don't think she wants to do the Salmon Ladder, I think she wants everyone to start considering her part of the actors that do their own stunts group and she's just not there yet. I don't think there is any special password to get into the "group", despite her constant attempts to join the group. She's doing the leg work now to make her more eligible for that group. So just do the work and prove yourself onto the group. No one is gonna hand you a membership card just for doing some work-outs. Stop asking or talking about it and just do it.

Edited September 28, 2015 by kismet

[Morrigan2575]

I seem to recall KC talking about doing the Salmon ladder for over a year now. In May 2014 she gave an interview saying she'd be able to beat SA in a race by May 2015. Later that Summer (2014) she told Australian Convention goers that she could do the salmon ladder, she also had them film her backstage doing pushups. Even later that Summer (August) she told Dragon Con that she could do 1 rung on the Salmon ladder. At a convention in October 2014 she said she hadn't tried it yet but is pretty sure she could do it because she was now capable of doing pull ups and she used to do gymnastics.

In July 2015 she once again stated she could probably do the Salmon ladder because she can do pull ups. However apparently she needs someone from the show like SA to show her how do to it.

[Sakura12]

If she can work out 3 hours a day, just replace that with a workout at a Parkour Gym, I'm assuming there is one nearby since SA posts vids from it. If she really thinks she can do she should go do it, instead of talking about doing it. She doesn't need the Arrow crew. 

 

I do agree KC wants to join the stunt club. There is no club to join, a year of working out is just not enough experience. Caity was training to be a stunt woman before Arrow and did her own stunts in other projects, that's why she got to walk on set and do some of them. Bam Bam and the Team knew she was capable from that.  

[tangerine95]

She should just do it and film it if she wants.Thats what DR did,he never did it on the show either.I only heard that they asked Willa if she wanted to it on the show but she said she couldn't.Maybe it's better if they don't have Laurel doing the salmon lader,there's already way to many similarities between her and Sara,no need for another one.She looks like she' Single White Femaling Sara enough already.

Edited September 28, 2015 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

Well I am hoping she does do it and if the entire season passes without Laurel/Katie performing it in the show or bts, I will have to give some side eye by then.

[Sakura12]

She really does need to stop comparing herself to CL. They are not the same. She should want to separate Laurel from Sara by finding another workout that she can do. She should try the Jumping Spider or Cliff Hanger. The Salmon Ladder is not that amazing anymore since we've seen a bunch people do it already on the show. Or you know focus on her stunt fighting instead of something that has nothing to with it. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[calliope1975]

I kind of wish they would keep Sally as Oliver's thing. I don't really need to see any other character do it. I thought it was goofy when CGI Barry did it, though I got the comedic effect they were going for. (However, I did enjoy Cisco's brief pull up attempt.)

 

I understood that Sara was burning off her anger and frustration, but I don't need to see Digg or Thea on it (even if DR looked mighty fine in that video he posted.) KC/Laurel has enough stuff going for her that her ability to hang out on Sally is on the low list of priorities that I want to see. But if KC really wants to do, just do it. 

[kismet]

She really does need to stop comparing herself to CL. They are not the same. She should want to separate Laurel from Sara by finding another workout that she can do. She should try the Jumping Spider or Cliff Hanger. The Salmon Ladder is not that amazing anymore since we've seen a bunch people do it already on the show. Or you know focus on her stunt fighting instead of something that has nothing to with it. 

Personally, I hope LL/BC does not do it on the show. I don't care if KC does it in her free time & posts a video like DR. Frankly, for all of her talk about it, I think she needs to do it at this point. But I feel like there can be another workout routine that could be her thing. Give her character some unique thing to do that is separate from what the others have already done. It's like leg warmers in the 80s, they were cool until everyone was wearing them.

 

The Salmon Ladder should really just be Oliver's thing. I have to agree with @Calliope1975. It was nice to watch OQ do it in earlier seasons because he seemed to actually do it for fun and performed dialogue during it. It seemed like habit to him, like just an everyday occurrence. I loved watching SL do it in s2, because it introduced her to the audience as someone on OQ's level & kick-ass. And it was nice to see a woman take on the challenge without making a big deal about it. It personally lost a lot of its appeal when we had Ray & Barry both do it in s3, because it was just to make RP OQ like & BR did not seem that natural doing it. And as laughable as CGI salmon laddering was, it wasn't necessary although it did set-up that sushi joke. DR looking amazing in his video, but I don't need to see Dig do the ladder to know what he is capable of.

[Primal Slayer]

I doubt she is trying to compare herself to CL. The Salmon Ladder seems to be a huge accomplishment on the show with how much they hyped it up in the past.

 

I wonder if MG and co. have decided on a specific martial arts style for the character and if so, then having Katie focus on semi-perfecting it should be the thing to focus on. But Laurel in general should be the type of character who is into bettering herself and expanding her horizon by learning different techniques throughout the show. I really want to see them incorporate more boxing into her fight scenes as it seems like it was completely forgotten after Ted disappeared. But they should plan on bringing in Richard Dragon and Shiva to add to her training.

[Menrva]

Does KC really feel that insecure? I honestly couldn't care less if she can do the Salmon Ladder or not. Better she get a better PR person and perhaps an acting coach. It's nice that she's working out so hard to maintain her physical presence, but it's not just about having abs. (Though the abs are nice.) I wish LL/KC seemed more at ease with herself. There's more than one way to show strength. I feel like all this talk about beating people/doing the salmon ladder, being a badass is a poorly veiled cover for a sense of inferiority. Which isn't really her fault. I can't imagine that as a child she'd decide she better take karate because one day she would play a tough female superhero who was a martial arts expert. 

 

I just don't need Arrow to be the "Let's Be Nice to Laurel Because Her Self-Esteem Is Fragile" show.

[Trini]

When did Katie say she was insecure?

It's a good thing she's trying to stay in shape to do more of her own stunts.

 

 

I just don't need Arrow to be the "Let's Be Nice to Laurel Because Her Self-Esteem Is Fragile" show.

Who implied that?

[Primal Slayer]

What's there to be insecure about when wanting to tackle the Salmon ladder? When half the cast is able to do, wanting to see if she can tackle it is fine, they do this for fun. Everything out of her mouth is not suppose to be taken as some serious thing. It's in jest.

She is a former gymnast i believe, they should incorporate that into the charecter.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Starfish35]

Rhythmic gymnastics IIRC. Not that rhythmic gymnastics isn't gymnastics. Just saying, if we're thinking Mary Lou Retton-type of gymnastics, it wasn't that. (And I just showed my age. Ha.)

Edited September 28, 2015 by Starfish35

[Sakura12]

How long ago was she in gymnastics? I'm just asking because CL being a dancer you can see her almost dancing the moves. KC's never looked very fluid in her fight scenes. 

[kismet]

Rhythmic gymnastics IIRC. Not that rhythmic gymnastics isn't gymnastics. Just saying, if we're thinking Mary Lou Retton-type of gymnastics, it wasn't that. (And I just showed my age. Ha.)

So she should be good with fluid movements & props. Maybe they can incorporate some balls, ribbons, clubs, ropes & hoops into her stunt work. It's not a bad idea - I just don't know how well it will translate to vigilante fight sequences.

[Chaser]

I can see some insecurity with KC in terms of the physical aspect. Arrow really set the bar high with SA, CL, DR plus various guest stars like Manu and Summer. I'm sure she wants to be seen in apart of that group. I feel like there is a certain bragging right/cool factor about the Salmon Ladder within Arrow.

KC wanting to do the Salmon Ladder makes total sense. I'm just annoyed that she keeps talking about it but hasn't seemed to do anything about it.

[Happy Harpy]

I wish that my problem with Laurel was that K.Cassidy can't do the salmon ladder (Edit, just in case it wasn't clear enough: I don't expect K.Cassidy to be able to do the salmon ladder, more than I expected G.Clooney to be able to treat children  IRL when he played a doctor). I also wish that her obvious dedication to her training could make me forget about the huge mistakes I think were made in Laurel's conception, storylines and characters development. Alas, it isn't that simple.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[Sakura12]

She appears to be waiting to be asked by the stunt team and having SA show her how. Instead of just going ahead doing it on her own like DR. 

 

If she can do it, then do it then maybe they'll let Laurel do it on the show. Even though it doesn't matter anymore since Sara/CL already did it. And it will be yet another thing that Laurel copied from Sara. Might as well go all the way with the SWFing. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Sakura12

[tangerine95]

I wish that my problem with Laurel was that K.Cassidy can't do the salmon ladder. I also wish that her obvious dedication to her training could make me forget about the huge mistakes I think were made in Laurel's conception, storylines and characters development. Alas, it isn't that simple.

Same.The least of my problems with LL is that KC doesn't do a lot of her own stunts like CL did.I don't care about that at all,they should just make the stunt double less noticeble because it was really bad in season 3.My problems are the writting and the acting and those I doubt will ever be solved at this point.

Edited September 28, 2015 by tangerine95

[Primal Slayer]

She appears to be waiting to be asked by the stunt team and having SA show her how. Instead of just going ahead doing it on her own like DR. 

 

If she can do it, then do it then maybe they'll let Laurel do it on the show. Even though it doesn't matter anymore since Sara/CL already did it. And it will be yet another thing that Laurel copied from Sara. Might as well go all the way with the SWFing. 

It isn't really copying to me. It isn't exclusive to Sara just as riding a motorcycle doesnt mean that Laurel and Thea are copying Oliver/Roy/Sara. Now maybe if they start having her do the whole ribbon thing, I maybe can see that.

 

And it seems like it is more of a scheduling thing right now since Stephen was right there when it was said that the stunt guy wants him to show her. Just as Stephen wants the both of them to have a training session together on the show.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Primal Slayer

[Menrva]

When did Katie say she was insecure?

It's a good thing she's trying to stay in shape to do more of her own stunts.

 

Who implied that?

 

 

What's there to be insecure about when wanting to tackle the Salmon ladder? When half the cast is able to do, wanting to see if she can tackle it is fine, they do this for fun. Everything out of her mouth is not suppose to be taken as some serious thing. It's in jest.

She is a former gymnast i believe, they should incorporate that into the charecter.

I need to apologize because I don't think I explained myself very well. To me, all that talk about the salmon ladder and the like just sounds like she's trying to compensate for something. The lady doth protest too much. And all the contortions and assassinations, both literal and character-related required to make Laurel BC feel like accommodation, and excessive for a character that doesn't really fit in anywhere. I think KC is gorgeous and she seems like a fun person in real life so sometimes I feel bad for beating on LL so much, but really, she's doing a great job with her physique. She doesn't have anything else to prove. She gets to be BC. 

Sorry if this didn't clear things up more. And sorry if my earlier remarks offended anyone.

[statsgirl]

I really like the idea of Laurel having her own signature move.  Something that's just hers, not Oliver's or Helena's or Sara's.

 

We mocked Ray when he did the salmon ladder because that's Oliver's thing and it made Ray Oliver-lite.  I associate Sara with the salmon ladder and I don't want the Black Canary to be Canary-lite.

[Primal Slayer]

It seems like Laurel having Tonfas will be her signature move. It is the main weapon Katie was training with and from the videos I've seen, they can be badass when used correctly.

[Pyramid]

I really like the idea of Laurel having her own signature move.  Something that's just hers, not Oliver's or Helena's or Sara's.

 

We mocked Ray when he did the salmon ladder because that's Oliver's thing and it made Ray Oliver-lite.  I associate Sara with the salmon ladder and I don't want the Black Canary to be Canary-lite.

Well, she does have her own signature move. Unfortunately it's the Canary Cry. One of the most ridiculous looking things ever committed to film. It's like the writers hate her.

[HighwayFlower]

Canary Cry! Ugh! Sara's version was perfect. Having her scream like that does not translate well to TV and just makes her look even more like a joke.

[Primal Slayer]

She looked badass to me the first time she did it but it sounded so weak and was not as effective as it should've been.

[kismet]

Well it also looks dumb because she has the Canary Cry Choker and my guess is the majority of the noise comes from that and not her actually vocal cords. I don't honestly remember if Cisco discussed her needing to actually scream or not to activate the device. So there is likely no need for her to actually scream, if she could simply press a button. Which makes is more practical & in-line with the type of show Arrow is.

 

Now if they had chosen to remain faithful to the comic canon which I believes makes her a meta & that is how she acquires the Cry, then standing slightly bent over with your mouth wide open would make sense. Even if they had held off until this s4 and had magic/mysticism be the source of the Cry, the face might at least seem required.

 

But they chose to have Cisco create a tech piece for her so why does she actually need to scream? Ray didn't have to actually train in order to get the ATOM suit to box/fight for him. If its good tech it shouldn't need an actual scream posture that looks like bad D-roll for an unreleased horror flick. It's not even KC's fault, that posture would probably look dumb on anybody. At least if it was coming from her voice & not some tech, it might be able to work or at least one could accept that face is a requirement for the scream.

[Sakura12]

For me it's the posture that looks dumb and would look dumb on anyone. And that power just does not translate well to live action, I also find it kind of sexist. BC's power is to scream really loudly. I get that it's a sonic scream and could cause damage, but most of the time we associate someone screaming with that person being afraid.

 

That's another reason the sonic bombs worked for me, that was a device that put out a high pitched sonic sound, while Canary could continue to kick people asses without having to stop to pose.