Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[Menrva]

"Dinah Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world."

 

Swap "save" with "control" and that is Arrow's version of Laurel in a nutshell. You know who else likes to try and control the world? Supervillians. Still can't get the image of Laurel with Loki's helmet out of my head…

 

I have some more thoughts on Laurel and her behavioral patterns (honestly! and they're not all negative!) but I don't have time to post it now…

[fantique]

Perhaps someone here can explain the continued notion that the EPs and some fans have that the only reason Laurel isn't more popular on the show is because she wasn't BC/in on Oliver's Arrow secret.

I'll try to take a stab at it. 

This is from what I understand and from the what I think the perspective of different people who have reviewed it to be.

 

1) People who came from the comic books are people who were introduced to the character at a significant point in time and something about the GA/BC comics did it for them. So when they heard about the adaptation into a show, they were excited to see the fully formed characters they loved. 

Now of course that didn't happen as Arrow is about the before Oliver Queen became the Green Arrow. While there was disappointment, there was still a lot of action component and comic book mentions for them to warm up to this version of OQ. The problem is when we are introduced to Laurel, who the show screams with lit up arrows "She will be BC y'all", she is nothing like the comics' Laurel. Not just that she doesn't have the costume yet but everything else. 

However because BC is more of a persona anyway, if they could see her doing it for them in the action portion of it and see her kicking ass then it's fine that in this version she's a lawyer who is bitchy and used to be Oliver's girlfriend. I think they also thought that with Laurel the way she was, it would take forever to have BC on the show so all they wanted was her to be BC already. This is further supported by the fact that when Sara appeared as the Canary, a portion of that group had no time for Laurel because they could get their badass Canary somewhere else. If Laurel herself was the reason they liked her, her being BC or not would not affect their liking her. 

I think that's where the EPs are getting their "oh you'll like her when she's BC" idea from. In their mind, Sara's popularity was due to her being the Canary so once Laurel is the Black Canary, she will be popular too. And they're not necessarily wrong. Because for example last night's episode, which was just ok for me, got a lot of praise consistently when coming from a comic book fan. They were really excited about the boxing glove, Wildcat, etc. Whereas people who are not necessarily into the comic, one of the first things I hear from them is asking if Diggle and Felicity had a lobotomy.

 

2) People who are Laurel fans, well if they already like her and think she's awesome then all they need is more confirmation that she is a badass, strong woman and when she is BC, everyone else will see what they've been seeing in Laurel even without the costume.

 

To my utter dismay, this will not be enough to make me like her. I have a problem with who she is as a person, not as a superhero. I don't even hate her, I just think she's annoying. She's one of those people who I just don't get because their priorities in life and who they aspire to be is just not anything I find admirable or enviable. I don't want to sit down and know what's inside her head.

I am also frustrated because since she is not meant to come off that way, the show is trying to put her in the position of someone that is liked and have her do things that even if I loved her I would be major side eyeing her. I just don't think they can afford to have her behaving that way when she is not generally popular. It also baffles me because I can't see why it narratively makes sense to have her be bitchy and overstepping boundaries at work and in the lair. IT underlines the problems a lot of people have with her. I found her palatable last night because she wasn't !A.N.G.R.Y!, staring at her jacket or trigger happy but again that was when everyone is acting OOC and jumping the gun, why couldn't she be like this last week with the riot or earlier with the wife-beater? Their anvils for her becoming BC are unnecessary because we always knew she would be BC, so her awkward lines like "black, definitely black" and her 10 sec scenes staring at the jacket are stupid and emphasise how stupid and shallow her motivations are. She wants to be Bc because she's angry and wants to be in control of something. If it was about catching Sara's murderer why is she just leaving it to TA and just dropping in occasionally to try and kill the new suspect? They should have scenes with her looking for clues or making a list of searches Felicity could run since doing them officially would alert Lance (another stupid thing).

 

This is a nice transition into what I would like to see for Laurel to be someone I enjoy. First, I want her to be the one to tell Lance about Sara, and I don't want him to coddle her or explain away her unacceptable decision. He should be hurt and then calm down to mourn together because that's always better than mourning alone. I want them to stop her bitchiness and then have a character point out she is behaving like an a-hole since it can be easily solved by her not being a condescending bitch. I want her to have a scene talking about how until she is in a position to change things, she feels the need to work outside the Law because she has seen that there are limitations. Just like Lance did. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by fantique

[Actionmage]

fantique, I think you got the EP/some fans' opinions just right.  I was going to quibble on some points, but I reread the question and got that it wasn't about readers/posters like me. Yet, I will say that I loved the Easter eggs and thought Dig and Felicity had lobotomies.

 

I like your hopes for Laurel. They seem like many that I've read that feel that Laurel can be... course-corrected? She could be understandable and respectable, just not a shiny hero like Flash or Superman.  The world needs heroes like Oliver too, so it's not a failing.

[Carrie Ann]

I think the EPs might see "not being in on Oliver's secret" as perhaps a bigger problem than her not being the BC from the jump. I think they feel it limited the things she could do, the characters she could interact with, and the way she interacted with them.

 

So many things that make her distasteful to the audience (in S1, at least) were at least related to the fact that she didn't know what happened to Oliver, and didn't know what he was doing as the vigilante. She was set up to be angry with Oliver when he returned, and she made all these cruelly ironic comments about how he wasn't hero material, etc. I think the EPs overestimated how much viewers would sympathize with her position vs. Oliver's. Plus, he came home a man who hated himself more than Laurel ever could, so her continuing to tear him down just felt like piling on. It was a terrible dynamic to set up.

 

She also couldn't interact with the two most popular characters--Diggle and Felicity--in any meaningful way. So she needed to stay over in her corner with her father and Tommy (also popular, but that relationship didn't reflect well on either of them), and occasionally Thea who was also problematic in S1.

 

I won't go into Season 2, because you can apply a lot of the same logic there, only in that case it was worse because there was no one in the Laurel corner of the world except her dad and guest stars, until Sara showed up and then...ugh.

 

So what the writers are trying to argue is that you can trace so many things people dislike about her character back to her not knowing about Oliver, and about being on this sloooooooooooowwww journey to becoming the BC. And I can see their point.

 

But it's oversimplifying the situation like whoa. And the bigger problem is that you can't resolve those issues as easily as just reversing those conditions. You can't just say, "Well, she knows now," and erase two seasons of Laurel being off-putting and frustrating. You can't just put her in a leather suit and mask and think that will make her a compelling character. They needed to put this work in at the beginning of Season 2 at least, and instead, they took her in an even worse direction.

 

My greatest hope for the character at this point is that she goes a grey/dark route and is an antagonist of Team Arrow for a few seasons, before being redeemed toward the end of the series. I think we've got her for the long haul, but I don't believe in or root for her as a hero right now. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[fantique]

fantique, I think you got the EP/some fans' opinions just right.  I was going to quibble on some points, but I reread the question and got that it wasn't about readers/posters like me. Yet, I will say that I loved the Easter eggs and thought Dig and Felicity had lobotomies.

And I love that you did. I think I was trying to explain that there are different things that make us "forgive" certain errors by the show. While I clapped when he did the glove thing because I knew GA fans would be delighted, it's not enough in the good pile for me when compared to the fact that 2 of my favourites seemed to have been abducted by aliens and brainwashed and Oliver was a stupid head. Just like last episode some people couldn't get over how bad the VotW was but I didn't care because his purpose was to tie into Felicity's life. I did appreciate this week though that the case helped to forge more trust between Oliver and Roy because sped up as it may be, I just melt when Oliver is in big bro mode. I just do. I want to have something like that for Laurel. I want to think in an episode, well that wasn't exactly trepidation but Laurel showed that side and I wanted to give her a hug, which I've only felt when she begged Sara not to hate her. I was feeling hopeful for her character and then she became annoying again. Dear Lord give me strength, now I'm terrified that because I liked her this week next I'm going to want to shake her.

 

Also yeah I know it's not all comic book fans who are like that. I compare those to the people who bitched and moaned because Katniss didn't get the mockingjay pin the same way in the movie as in the books. I was like really? That's what you're picking on. Never-freaking-mind. Some people have difficulty understanding that an adaptation is someone trying something different with a beloved work. I always say to those people: "If it was all the same then why the hell would you watch the movie/tv show just read the book/comic and spare yourself and others a migraine".

Edited November 14, 2014 by fantique

[Shanna]

I think the EPs might see "not being in on Oliver's secret" as perhaps a bigger problem than her not being the BC from the jump. I think they feel it limited the things she could do, the characters she could interact with, and the way she interacted with them.

Snip....

She also couldn't interact with the two most popular characters--Diggle and Felicity--in any meaningful way. .

The thing is, she did interact with Diggle and felicity before she knew and those interactions involved her treating them like servants. Now she knows, and she still treats them like the help, issuing demands. It's not like the writers have taken advantage of her knowing by working in good interactions and bonding with the team. So I don't know why this would make the audience like her Better.

I can sort of buy some of the explanation of why they would think the comic book people would like her better if she was bc, but not being interested in the comics myself I don't really get it. My main problem with her is her personality.

[Sakura12]

I think Laurel's name should the Lemming (They can black in front of it for comics) because it seems she only wants to be a vigilante because everyone else is. Not because she actually wants to save the world. (everyone and their mothers can keep saying that she does, I have yet to see her actually do any thing remotely world saving)

 

Both Oliver and Sara became vigilantes to right wrongs for the former and to help women for the later. Both of their main motivation was to help (by any means necessary, but still to help others). Laurel it seems she wants to be one so she can go around hitting people.  Am I supposed to see a hero in that? 

[Chaser]

The thing that I can't grasp, is when I picture everyone on there down time or just hanging out: I see Diggle inviting Oliver and Felicity over for dinner with Lyla, I see Roy and Felicity grabbing a burger at Big Belly, I see Felicity baby siting Sara, Diggle and Oliver grabbing breakfast when they leave the Foundry, Oliver training Roy, Oliver and Diggle training, Oliver picking up coffee for Felicity…..I can see all these things happening. I can't fit Laurel casually into that.

 

Her and Oliver only seem to be friends in name only. The kind of friend you've known forever so you still care and will be there when needed, but you don't really hang out with. I completely forgot that Laurel and Thea were friends. I doubt they talked while Thea was away and with Laurel now knowing who Thea's father is, would she even want to be friends? 

 

Her dad. That is the only geniue connection with the main cast. 

[Carrie Ann]

The thing is, she did interact with Diggle and felicity before she knew and those interactions involved her treating them like servants. Now she knows, and she still treats them like the help, issuing demands. It's not like the writers have taken advantage of her knowing by working in good interactions and bonding with the team. So I don't know why this would make the audience like her Better.

 

I agree with you--like I said, this POV is way over-simplifying the situation. I think the EPs saw the problems spinning out from this "not knowing" but that's just one aspect of it.

 

And honestly, the way her relationship to Team Arrow remains strained and awkward seems intentional to me, and I like it. I'm glad they didn't make everyone just love Laurel right away. In fact, I don't think they're going to get to that point this season at all.

[statsgirl]

I think the EPs might see "not being in on Oliver's secret" as perhaps a bigger problem than her not being the BC from the jump. I think they feel it limited the things she could do, the characters she could interact with, and the way she interacted with them.

...

She also couldn't interact with the two most popular characters--Diggle and Felicity--in any meaningful way. So she needed to stay over in her corner with her father and Tommy (also popular, but that relationship didn't reflect well on either of them), and occasionally Thea who was also problematic in S1.

And yet, now she knows and her plots are still tangential to the main Arrow story.

 

In Guilty, Laurel had the 'A' story, which was about her mentor Ted Grant and who was killing the gang members and it turned out to be a former mentee of Grant who they had tortured. None of this had anything to do with Oliver's List or his post-list mission, it was a story put in entirely for Laurel's sake as part of her origin story.  The actual Team Arrow story, Roy's nightmares and guilt, got short shrift and we still haven't even got to his guilt yet.

 

It's the same with knowing Diggle and Felicity.  Laurel now knows they work with Oliver but she's still barking out orders to them.

 

So while I'm glad she isn't instant BFFs with Felicity and a regular part of the Team down in the Arrow cave, and that they are consistent with how she treats people she doesn't think she needs to be nice to (although Felicity, Diggle and Roy just helped save her life again), the problem of her not being able to fit into the main Arrow storyline still remains -- to have Laurel have a part of an episode, she needs to take away time from the Arrow storyline.

 

To my utter dismay, this will not be enough to make me like her. I have a problem with who she is as a person, not as a superhero. I don't even hate her, I just think she's annoying. She's one of those people who I just don't get because their priorities in life and who they aspire to be is just not anything I find admirable or enviable. I don't want to sit down and know what's inside her head.

This is how I feel about her too.  I liked Sara, I like Lyla and would like to know more about her. Thea's okay but the person who Laurel is written to be is someone I would never be more than acquaintances with.  I want her to be happy, but I don't want to know more about her.  That's not a bad thing for a secondary character but for someone who is intended to be the co-star, it's rather a problem.

[rue721]

the show is trying to put her in the position of someone that is liked and have her do things that even if I loved her I would be major side eyeing her.

 

I'm honestly not sure where they're trying to have her journey go, because to me, it seems like she's becoming a megalomaniac. She keeps upping the ante on how she abuses any power she can get her hands on (professionally, physically, she even oversteps and makes too many demands socially). I also am not a fan of vigilantism in general, but the other (moral/"good") characters who've turned to that have been fighting perceived injustices against society (or the city, or the Glades, etc) and not just against themselves/their family. In contrast, Laurel's quest to avenge Sara seems more similar, to me, to Merlyn's quest to avenge his wife, which in his case obviously led to him committing a massacre and becoming a *supervillain.* I don't see Laurel as being on a hero's journey right now. Is that what they're trying to do?

 

I also have very little patience with her by now, because I feel that I've spent seasons watching her (imo) lose her integrity -- her professional integrity is just the pits, and her personal integrity took a swan dive when she just *kept* escalating how poorly she was treating her family from Sara's return on, and now she's literally hurting people without seeming at all conscious of who *that's* going to hurt (such as when she went after that abusive boyfriend with a baseball bat, clearly identified herself as doing it in the name of his girlfriend, with apparently no more of a plan in mind than to piss off and scare the boyfriend even more and then leave the already-abused girlfriend to clean up that mess). I don't feel invested in her at all at this point, and *surely* don't want to see her get any more power, since it's clear to me that she shouldn't be trusted with it. All that is of course YMMV. This is pretty arbitrary, but the moment that I personally was just done with her as a "good guy" was way back when Sara, Dinah, and Lance were all standing in her apartment, and she stumbled out, toasted of course, and not even wearing clothes, just some nasty robe. Anyway, she just stood there drinking and being incredibly rude to her family, Sara got upset and finally left, and Laurel threw a glass at her so hard that it broke against the door. NOPE. That is a big NOPE for me.

 

I actually have liked Katie Cassidy on other shows (on Harper's Island and Gossip Girl specifically) and I was *happy* when it turned out she was cast in Arrow. I don't have an issue with the actress. However, I am really fed up at this point with Laurel, and it's not because I had some kind of issue with her set up as a character, it's because of her specific character/life-decisions over the course of the show. Her beating people up at this point is not at all what I'm rooting for. I'm also not rooting for things to go well for her, just like I'm not rooting for them to go well for Merlyn or somebody. I wouldn't even think I was "supposed" to, except that apparently, we're supposed to be interested in her romantic storylines?

 

I dunno, I guess my thing is, the show earned my dislike and distrust for Laurel honestly and over the long haul, through the character's own decisions and behavior. Any one of those decisions would have earned *any* character the side eye from me. It's not as though I would have been totally fine with Oliver throwing glasses at Thea's head or with Diggle waving a badge around and using his father's reputation and position to get into the position of manhandling an injured witness and then not even blinking as the witness is murdered right in front of him. I'm not understanding how showing Laurel do things that would earn anyone side eye, extremely often and in ways that make them seem consistent and characteristic of her, would result in her popularity as a "good guy." Maybe as a villain? Which is why I wonder if she's on the path to becoming a villain. If so, that's actually great, though I have other issues with the execution of it (mostly, giving Laurel random side-plots, like with Ted Grant, and having her trying to carry the A-plot so often, etc). I'm just kind of befuddled at this point, though, and unsure where they're going.

 

ETA:

 

If Laurel is becoming more similar to Malcolm, I wonder if Malcolm's relationship with his wife was chilly in the way that Laurel's was with Sara's? Malcolm definitely doesn't treat his family right, even when he's trying to be kind to them and "protect" them (like not telling Tommy the truth about a lot, but also probably w/r/t Thea now), and that's a major complaint I have with Laurel's behavior (including her misguided secret-keeping/"protection"). Malcolm is also very domineering and no-holds-barred in his professional/social life, which, thinking about it now, is imo not unlike Laurel, either. Have to say, this is making me see Tommy and Laurel's relationship in a whole new light! As well as Oliver's "protection" of Malcolm and his declaration that he'll always help Laurel. LOL.

Edited November 14, 2014 by rue721

[Chaser]

I had never thought about the similarities to Malcolm before. That is actually really interesting.

[Carrie Ann]

And yet, now she knows and her plots are still tangential to the main Arrow story.

 

Like I said in both of my posts above: the perspective I laid out, which belongs to the EPs and not to me, is an oversimplification. It's a convenient thing they could point to and say, "Well, see, the problem was that we were so limited in what we could do with her until she knew the truth and could be more integrated into the story." And yeah, now she's in on the secret, but not integrated properly, and the old problems remain and new ones have been created.

 

My hope is that we're heading toward something more interesting than InstaCanary, as @rue721 suggested. And if we're not, well, at least I don't believe that Team Arrow would become her team too. If she does this thing, and becomes some sort of hero through magic/three months of boxing lessons, then she'll be flying solo at least for the time being. If I'm wrong about that...

[Tangerine]

I think 'fed up' is a good way to describe how I feel too.

 

I just started watching Brooklyn Nine-Nine and I was a little worried that I wouldn't end up liking Amy Santiago because to me, her and Laurel on paper are very similar.  They're both the uptight, by the book love interests for the male lead. But I ended up loving her. Granted, because Brooklyn Nine-Nine is a comedy, it's easier to like the characters, but the underlying thing is that she's consistently written and the actress injects real human warmth to her. The other thing is that the characters in Brooklyn Nine-Nine react to Amy's ridiculousness appropriately and in ways that are consistent with their characters. We're given chances to laugh at her AND with her. Whereas on Arrow, we have people acting out of character around Laurel, coddling her, accepting her terrible behaviour or being written to act dumber than they actually are to prop her up. 

 

If Laurel is going to continue to be part of this show I want them to fix her, but it doesn't mean putting her in leather and making her a superhero. It means building her up as a character that I want to root for OUTSIDE of the mask. I don't know if it's too late three season in, but when they keep shoving a storyline in our faces that is obviously not working, or telling us something that is completely the opposite of what's happening on screen, you start to get the feeling that the writers think the viewers are idiots and we become resentful.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Tangerine

[statsgirl]

If Laurel is becoming more similar to Malcolm, I wonder if Malcolm's relationship with his wife was chilly in the way that Laurel's was with Sara's? Malcolm definitely doesn't treat his family right, even when he's trying to be kind to them and "protect" them (like not telling Tommy the truth about a lot, but also probably w/r/t Thea now), and that's a major complaint I have with Laurel's behavior (including her misguided secret-keeping/"protection"). Malcolm is also very domineering and no-holds-barred in his professional/social life, which, thinking about it now, is imo not unlike Laurel, either. Have to say, this is making me see Tommy and Laurel's relationship in a whole new light! As well as Oliver's "protection" of Malcolm and his declaration that he'll always help Laurel. LOL.

Malcolm was the guy who wouldn't take his wife's repeated phone calls as she lay dying because he was busy and didn't want to be bothered with her.  He also said that he loved Tommy but cut him off without a penny because he thought Tommy wasn't living up to what Malcolm thought he should be.  It is like Laurel rejecting Sara for all those years and being mad at her for stealing Ollie from her.

 

That's a very interesting theory and it would make much more sense than what I foresee happening. It would also play to KC's acting strengths.

 

 

Like I said in both of my posts above: the perspective I laid out, which belongs to the EPs and not to me, is an oversimplification. It's a convenient thing they could point to and say, "Well, see, the problem was that we were so limited in what we could do with her until she knew the truth and could be more integrated into the story." And yeah, now she's in on the secret, but not integrated properly, and the old problems remain and new ones have been created.

I think the EPs really did/do believe it, that the problems with Laurel were that she wasn't in on the secret and that she hadn't put on the fishnets yet, as AK said. Well they fixed that, but many of the basic problems remain.

 

Something interesting that SA said about The Flash in the ArrowAfterShow last night,

that by episode 7 everyone knows Barry Allen is The Flash

.   Maybe they learned from what they thought were the problems with Laurel.

[Actionmage]

If Laurel is becoming more similar to Malcolm,

 

Someone hold me: I got a flash of vision-- Malcolm keeping tabs on Laurel and taking her under his wing. All while we freak over him training Thea. 

 

I am scared of my brain right now. It could be awesome or it might not be.

[Starfish35]

I hope this is the right thread for this - I'm not totally sure. Earlier today in the Spoiler thread there was some discussion about Laurel's new BC costume. I've been looking around the web at different versions of the BC costume, and I found this. Someone on deviantART has done a chronology of Black Canary costumes.

http://femmes-fatales.deviantart.com/gallery/49738060/Black-Canary

The thing I found to be interesting (and perhaps it's just me) is that looking at this, I actually have to give the costume designers some credit, assuming this was done intentionally. Of course neither Sara's or Laurel's costumes are going to have actual fishnets (and people still hoping for the fishnets to come later for Laurel are going to be disappointed), but the difference in the way the costumes are designed struck me. Sara's costume seems to be more inspired by earlier versions of the BC costume, with a jacket over a low cut bodice, and fishnet lacings on the pants. For Laurel's costume, they seemed to look for inspiration to later versions, with the bodysuit up to the neck, and the buckles on the boots mimicking the horizontal stripes on the boots of the later costumes. And it appears that the new 52 Canary wears fingerless gloves, another detail on Laurel's costume.

Don't get me wrong - I'm still not crazy about Laurel actually becoming the BC. But details like this do intrigue me, and makes me wonder whether someone behind the scenes actually put the thought into this to deliberately model Sara's costume more after earlier versions of the BC costume and Laurel's costume after later versions.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Starfish35

[fantique]

Astute observations Starfish35! I like that idea. Also in the 52 comics, I think BC never married GA. Maybe that fit in more with the idea that they are no longer romantically involved That at least means they have a new vision for her and revised from the version they imagined her as when starting the show because that obviously didn't work.

Edited November 14, 2014 by fantique

[dtissagirl]

Astute observations Starfish35! I like that idea. Also in the 52 comics, I think BC never married GA. Maybe that fit in more with the idea that they are no longer romantically involved That at least means they have a new vision for her and revised from the version they imagined her as when starting the show because that obviously didn't work.

 

This is correct. The new 52 Black Canary is the mother, not the daughter. She's married to a dude named Kurt Lance, even.

[Morrigan2575]

The thing I found to be interesting (and perhaps it's just me) is that looking at this, I actually have to give the costume designers some credit, assuming this was done intentionally. Of course neither Sara's or Laurel's costumes are going to have actual fishnets (and people still hoping for the fishnets to come later for Laurel are going to be disappointed), but the difference in the way the costumes are designed struck me. Sara's costume seems to be more inspired by earlier versions of the BC costume, with a jacket over a low cut bodice, and fishnet lacings on the pants. For Laurel's costume, they seemed to look for inspiration to later versions, with the bodysuit up to the neck, and the buckles on the boots mimicking the horizontal stripes on the boots of the later costumes.

 

I don't see anything similar to Black Canary, old or new, KC's costume doesn't remind me of any incarnation of Black Canary and, if I understand what you're saying you actually have it backwards, the 52 costume is Dinah Drake, the original BC not Dinah Lance.  If anything her new costume is a generic Black Widow x Baroness Costume, it's not inspired at all, least of all by Black Canary or what constitutes her look, IMO

Edited November 14, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[Starfish35]

Did you look at the link I posted? I realize the new 52 Canary is Dinah Drake, not Dinah Lance, and her costume doesn't look like Laurel's at all except for the fingerless gloves. I'm more specifically talking about this version of the costume.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/1/11957/784599-774258_black_canary_by_dinei.jpg

http://femmes-fatales.deviantart.com/art/Black-Canary-Justice-League-of-America-471932731

Obviously Laurel's costume isn't going to have the bare legs and fishnets any more than Sara's did, but it does have the bodysuit zipped up to the chin with the jacket over it, just like this one does, and the buckles on the boots mimic the effect of the yellow stripes on this version (and a couple of earlier versions) of Black Canary's boots. I have no idea where the garter thing comes from though, unless that's supposed to be some sort of nod to the fishnets.

Neither the Baroness costume (judging by your picture-I don't actually know who that is) or the Black Widow costume have a jacket over the suit, which Laurel's and Black Canary's does.

If this artist's timeline is right, this would also be (coincidentally or not) the costume Black Canary was wearing when Andrew Kriesburg was writing GA/BC, because it says that during the time she was wearing this costume she married (and then later divorced) Green Arrow.

Anyway *shrugs* Mileage will vary. I just wanted to clarify what I was thinking.

ETA: I just took a closer look at Laurel's costume, and there are also stripes set into the sleeves of the jacket, as well as curved insets over the breasts.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Starfish35

[Morrigan2575]

I did look at your link and I also read the comics and as I said, there's nothing about Laurel's costume that screams Black Canary, it's a standard/generic comic show costume.  They put no effort into making it even look like the Black Canary, at all, IMO.  In fact it's something most fans make fun, there's even a trope for it.

[Starfish35]

*shrugs* That's fine. As I said, mileage varies. Agree to disagree.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Starfish35

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

The worst thing this show did to the Laurel character was introduce Sara as Black Canary and everything that went along with it, including her death.

 

The best decision they've made for is give her a custom that doesn't make her look like a sex toy. It is badass actually. Besides removing her as the main character's love interest. 

 

I am simple like that.

 

Hi, bye!

*shrugs* That's fine. As I said, mileage varies. Agree to disagree.

 

Seeing the original custom as it is, I say it is a good thing they went a totally different with KC's. 

 

Both are black and have leather in them. That enough similarities for me.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[fantique]

I just thought of something when reading the episode thread for 3x06. Laurel says "I am not a part of your team. I don't work for you!" Does that mean that she equates being part of Team Arrow as being a subordinate to Oliver? That might explain her attitude when in the lair. In a way that reflects badly on her, because even if they were just his employees that doesn't mean she shouldn't respect them, but it kind of does. Obviously that shows how obtuse she is because it's been more than a year since we all know from the dynamic and then from Oliver's mouth that he sees them as his partners. In my head now, I imagine the 5 months were spent with only Oliver interacting with her for the info and her rarely seeing the others. That frustrates me because I feel like even the writers don't know what happened during those 5 months in general. It seems all they were thinking was "Ok, so we open like this..." I always find it more effective when the writers have their own idea of what goes on in the everyday life of their main characters and choose certain parts to be pushed to the front for narration.

 

Also I think that when the writers mention the not in on the secret thing, they mean that because it's not an aspect that interests them, they were not able to come up with a lot of things to do because they did not enjoy writing the out of the loopers' stories. I think it worked with Moira and Thea the relevance is they are Oliver's family but with Laurel she literally only had Lance. Sara later but we saw Sara more with Oliver.

Edited November 16, 2014 by fantique

[BunsenBurner]

 

 

The worst thing this show did to the Laurel character was introduce Sara as Black Canary and everything that went along with it, including her death.

 

The best decision they've made for is give her a custom that doesn't make her look like a sex toy. It is badass actually. Besides removing her as the main character's love interest. 

 

I am simple like that.

 

Hi, bye!

 

Seeing the original custom as it is, I say it is a good thing they went a totally different with KC's. 

 

Both are black and have leather in them. That enough similarities for me.

Except if you look at the costume for LL it looks like she is wearing a garter and the way the legs and buckles on her lower half are designed they look like the fishnets done in leather.

[statsgirl]

I just thought of something when reading the episode thread for 3x06. Laurel says "I am not a part of your team. I don't work for you!" Does that mean that she equates being part of Team Arrow as being a subordinate to Oliver? 

I took it to mean "you're not the boss of me and I don't have to listen to you" which is something she pulled on Quentin in season 1 when he tried to provide police protection for her and her client.  And then of course they attacked her.

 

I see it as consistent with them showing that she's not very smart or self-aware (as others have said), in contrast to on-screen characters saying how smart she is.  Especially now when she's only reacting to the immediate stimulus instead of thinking ahead.

 

But if Laurel prefers to not be a part of Oliver's Team and out of the lair, that works for me.  (Of course, I don't think that will last past ep 3x09.)

 

 

Also I think that when the writers mention the not in on the secret thing, they mean that because it's not an aspect that interests them, they were not able to come up with a lot of things to do because they did not enjoy writing the out of the loopers' stories.

But she knows now, she's known since ep 2x18 and she's still out of the loop in terms of the stories.  Either they write a completely Laurel-centric A story, as Guilty was, or they're still trying to shoehorn her into the main Arrow story as they did having her call out the riot squad in Secret Origins.

 

My best guess is that the original plan for Laurel failed in s1 and they still haven't got a Plan B, or C, that functions.   Part of the problem is that the Black Canary of the comic books was the Green Arrow's equal or superior in vigilante-ism and that's not going to work on this show given she's 8 years behind Oliver in learning the skills.  Nor does it seem that making her his sidekick is going to work either.  So she's still left out of the main Arrow storyline and I don't see how they can get her in. 

[fantique]

Oh yeah I definitely don't think it's a valid excuse for S3 but I think they meant that's the reason why her story wasn't as compelling for the first 2 seasons and hence people didn't like her. I don't think that's it because I really like Iris in the flash and she's out of the loop but she's shown to be a nice person who cares about Barry.

 

And obviously coming into the new season we carry the feelings from the previous one. Their problem is that people would call them out on restarting the Laurel path without addressing the past problems if they wrote her without the remnants of the bad parts. Hence the bitchy behaviour that gets called out on, they want to say we know that's a bad thing and we want to own up to it. It's not fully working but I get where they're going with this. I actually was so over S1-2 Laurel that I wouldn't have minded that she seemed like a new person just because there is no redeeming the genuinely awful person that she was then. I could have forgiven and forgotten but they reminded me why I didn't like her instead.

[statsgirl]

I like Iris too, and I like her interactions with Barry.  Personally I think Laurel's reactions to Oliver, her parents, Tommy and Sara had more to do with why people didn't like her character than the fact that she was out of the loop. Tommy didn't find out till nearly the end of the season but he was a favorite long before that.

[tv echo]

I took it to mean "you're not the boss of me and I don't have to listen to you" which is something she pulled on Quentin in season 1 when he tried to provide police protection for her and her client.  And then of course they attacked her.

 

But if Laurel prefers to not be a part of Oliver's Team and out of the lair, that works for me.  (Of course, I don't think that will last past ep 3x09.) 

 

But then she has no problem using his team and their resources.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Oliver used people in his quest in the beginning. Granted they didn't know it at first. Batman used Lucius. I think having a quest/mission/goal can make one blind to social manners. However, Laurel isn't ready to be a true vigilante; she has the wrong mindset. She's definitely well down the road to revenge. Oliver came back with a single purpose, but it wasn't completely selfish. It wasn't completely unselfish, but the pendulum wasn't swung closer to the selfish side. Laurel's motivations are overwhelmingly selfish. She also doesn't have the required self-sacrificing mentality for her crusade. Every comic book hero has a purpose. Batman, Superman, etc all have their own version of a list like Oliver does. They also are willing to forego their happiness to achieve the mission. Laurel's mission is to make herself feel better. 

 

Laurel isn't motivated by anything but her own pain. Even Sara's death isn't a catalyst because she isn't righting a perceived wrong. She just wants to hit something. Which is another reason why they haven't remedied the character IMO. 

Edited November 16, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[statsgirl]

Laurel isn't motivated by anything but her own pain. Even Sara's death isn't a catalyst because she isn't righting a perceived wrong. She just wants to hit something. Which is another reason why they haven't remedied the character IMO. 

I agree.  But I don't think that's the message the EPs are getting.  A lot of people are happy that Laurel is becoming the Black Canary and not questioning that her story looks more like Malcolm Merlyn's than it does Oliver's or Sara's.

 

As long as people accept Laurel as the BC, that's all the producers want.

[tv echo]

I think Oliver's use of people was different from Laurel's use of Team Arrow.  The only person Oliver really used was Felicity before she knew he was the vigilante, by asking her multiple times for help when she was a QC employee and couldn't refuse a request from her employer.  This also exposed her to risk.  Diggle and Roy both volunteered to help him.  The three of them became Oliver's team and, together, they all united in a joint effort to fight the bad guys, with Oliver as their leader.  Oliver's mission was originally to fulfill his father's dying wish and right his wrongs, but now it's a broader, more noble goal of protecting the city and people.

 

Now that Laurel knows Oliver's secret and has access to the Arrowcave, she is not interested in joining Team Arrow, letting Oliver be the leader, or fighting for their cause.  She's only interested in her own personal agendas (finding a crime witness, killing Sara's murderer/avenging Sara's death).  Having access to his team just means that she now has poor Felicity on 'speed-dial' as another underling to boss around, and the rest of Team Arrow as added muscle when she needs it.  She doesn't have to abide by their rules or even keep Oliver's secret if she doesn't want to. 

 

Anyway, that's my opinion.  It might change if there develops more of a natural and equal give-and-take in Laurel's relationship with Oliver and Team Arrow.

Edited November 17, 2014 by tv echo

[writersblock51]

I like the theory that Laurel's trajectory is more like Malcolm's than Oliver or Sara's. I can see her going villain before hero because her motive still remains angry revenge without a thought about how her actions will made the city a safer place. She has a very myopic view.  She didn't in S1 - she was trying to help the down trodden of the city. But that changed after Tommy died.

 

I think Laurel's time in the lair would be slightly easier to take if she actually offered her help, asked how she can help, etc. Her inclination when she's there is all take-take-take.  What does she actually bring to the team? 

[statsgirl]

What Laurel could bring to the team is her legal expertise, which is exactly what she's not using right now.  Other than that,  she treats them, especially Felicity,as her personal underlings.

 

But I don't mind because she's not in the lair.  Sure, they have to save her now and then but she's not fighting with Oliver and she's not on-site being bossy to Diggle, Felicity and Roy.

[Menrva]

I admit, I haven’t had the heart to really take a good look at Laurel in the Black Canary costume. I guess I’m not really ready to accept her in that role.

So I’ve also been thinking about Laurel and the bitterness I’ve both felt about her and witnessed here in this forum. I have a few thoughts about Laurel’s anger and violence and what’s going on in her head.
I have a pre-school age child. And sometimes, like most kids her age, she has tantrums. She’s loud. She screams. She throws herself to the ground and refuses to cooperate. It’s really frustrating. But why is she doing this? Maybe it’s because I said no, we can’t eat cookies for breakfast. But it’s really about my kid’s frustration over the lack of control she has over her life and decisions. Sometimes, all a little kid has is the power to say no.
And when I see Laurel, angry, flailing and lashing out at everyone and everything, becoming jaded and bitter, I see someone so very angry that she can’t control the world the way she wants. It's understandable in a kid; less so in an adult. However, when you had your whole life planned out, when you played by the rules, listened to your parents, got good grades, tried to do the right thing and then see it seemingly all for naught, it has to be infuriating. When Laurel called the cops on Sara when they were teenagers, it wasn't purely out of jealousy; it was a course correction. The path she had defined for herself wasn't matching up to reality, so she had to help it along. When the man she was planning to spend her life with cheated on her, with her screwup sister, it was another devastating blow. Her goodness, her beauty, her intelligence was not enough to change Oliver into the man she thought he should be.
And look at the world she lives in. It's a world where her little sister gets all the attention and Laurel doesn't because everyone assumes that Laurel is just fine. Where her lying, cheating little sister’s death causes her parents’ marriage to fall apart and lead to their father’s descent into alcoholism. And when Sara turns up not dead, everyone is so happy. And not only is Sara alive, but she kicks ass. And Laurel is once again ignored in favor of one who she deems not worthy. I think Laurel not telling her father about Sara’s death is another way she is exerting control over an impossible situation.
One of my problems with Laurel taking up vigilantism is that it doesn’t seem to be so much about her finding and punishing the one who killed her sister; rather it’s more about Laurel punishing the world for failing to meet her expectations. It’s kind of like corporal punishment and kids; sometimes, it can work but when it becomes an adult getting revenge on a child who’s been disobedient, then it becomes child abuse. I still find that scene of Laurel attacking that guy in the hospital really distasteful.
I grew up with a sibling who got a lot more attention than I did; my sibling had medical conditions that simply required it. It wasn’t her fault and I knew that; but it was sometimes frustrating when I felt taken for granted because I was ok. And then I’d feel intensely ashamed for feeling that way. But I knew that my parents weren’t favoring her over me; that’s just how it was. And I never felt like the world owed me anything. That’s why I have such a hard time sympathizing with Laurel. I can see where she’s coming from and even understand it, but I do not for one second agree with or condone her behavior.
Anyway, this is all way longer than I’d intended and I apologize for all the child-rearing analogies. It’s been on my mind a lot lately.

[Tangerine]

What Laurel could bring to the team is her legal expertise, which is exactly what she's not using right now.  Other than that,  she treats them, especially Felicity,as her personal underlings.

 

In the last episode they showed exactly a logical and perfectly reasonable way how Laurel could be integrated into the main storyline as a lawyer. She was helpful and used her resources and it was fine. I mean the plot was awful, but regardless...I also don't know why they made a point to say Laurel and the Arrow were now "business partners" with the "catch 'em/cook 'em" line when we didn't actually get to SEE any of it.

 

One point I always wondered is that just because the Arrow catches the bad guys, they would still have to go to trial in order to be sent to prison and I'm betting any decent lawyer could probably argue to get some of the evidence tossed. This is where Laurel's legal expertise could have come in. She could have told Oliver what to look for, how not to compromise evidence etc...etc...Then again I'm trying to apply logic to this show.

[Nanrad]

1. As long as Quentin is in the dark, I'll forever have a problem with Laurel keeping Sara's death a secret. There was a certain point in my life where, for consecutive years, I had to break the deaths of loved ones to my sisters. I even found my long lost sister because I thought she deserved to know. So, I can't related or be sympathetic to Laurel all because of her father's heart condition. 

 

2. I can't buy Laurel as a vigilante. I'm not referring to training, but her motivation. And that is why Oliver was correct in saying she wasn't cut out for it: she's wanting to be one for all of the wrong reasons: anger and revenge. Her learning boxing is supposed to teach her to control her emotions, but all it teaches her is how to fight. Then, what next. She'll terrorize and beat up people who she feels are criminals. We all saw her break the arm of a man already in the hospital and not flinch when he got killed. 

[wonderwall]

2. I can't buy Laurel as a vigilante. I'm not referring to training, but her motivation. And that is why Oliver was correct in saying she wasn't cut out for it: she's wanting to be one for all of the wrong reasons: anger and revenge. Her learning boxing is supposed to teach her to control her emotions, but all it teaches her is how to fight. Then, what next. She'll terrorize and beat up people who she feels are criminals. We all saw her break the arm of a man already in the hospital and not flinch when he got killed. 

That spoiler about Diggle having a heart to heart with Laurel, I think, shows that he's going to steer her towards the direction of heroism rather than retribution. I think after this heart to heart, Laurel will realize that she shouldn't honor Sara by essentially doing what she is doing right now, she should honor Sara by being a hero or whatever. And how will Diggle achieve this? Well he went through what Laurel is going through right now. He'll probably tell her revenge and anger are both stupid reasons to suit up and this will magically transform Laurel and her entire motivation. It's so obvious that this will happen... And I'm so not looking forward to this considering KC has a resting bitch-face and I don't think she can actually look very vulnerable without overacting. I think this is why it's hard to see her connect with other characters... I never see her face soften up unless she's with PB or CL. 

[pootlus]

What's weird is that I frequently see her being goofy away from the camera, so I don't get why she's so stiff and unlikable when she's in front of it. If it's a deliberate acting choice it's a very unwise one imo.

[statsgirl]

All the time we spend trying to make sense of fictional characters.

And when I see Laurel, angry, flailing and lashing out at everyone and everything, becoming jaded and bitter, I see someone so very angry that she can’t control the world the way she wants. It's understandable in a kid; less so in an adult. However, when you had your whole life planned out, when you played by the rules, listened to your parents, got good grades, tried to do the right thing and then see it seemingly all for naught, it has to be infuriating. When Laurel called the cops on Sara when they were teenagers, it wasn't purely out of jealousy; it was a course correction. The path she had defined for herself wasn't matching up to reality, so she had to help it along. 

I agree that Laurel is lashing out at the world because it's not going the way she wants it to.  And the more it doesn't, the more she tries to make it.

 

Laurel seems to be one of those people who have everything planned out and they want it to go according to plan.  She even told Sara her plan:  move in with Oliver, after a year get engaged, then get married.  When Sara pointed out that Oliver wasn't ready for this, as shown by his cheating on her with a number of women they both knew, her response was "Why can't you be happy for me?"  Sara was was only trying to get her to see reality but for Laurel, it was attack on her 

 

I agree with your child parallels but I don't think that Sara was the golden child in the family, I think Laurel was while Sara was the screw-up.  When Sara came home from university mid-term, the question was asked if she had got kicked out, whereas the conversation with Laurel was about her applying to law school.  In season 2, Sara was the one who felt that she wasn't good enough, that what she had done wrong was so horrendous, she could never be forgiven.  When has Laurel felt she was wrong?  She's always been more 'sinned against than sinning'.

 

When Dinah came to Starling City looking for Sara, Laurel was angry at her for believing Sara was still alive and called in Quentin expecting him to tell her she was wrong. When Quentin started hoping himself, Laurel shut them both down in a very cruel way in Salvation.  But Sara was alive and did come back and Laurel's reaction to the attention being on Sara now rather than herself was to throw a wine glass in anger. 

 

When Laurel was suddenly representing the DA in ep 3x05 and they told her Starling City bank was in trouble, she told them to call in the riot squad. That's not something most of us would do with zero experience, but she was so sure of herself that instead of getting someone who knew what to do in that situation or even finding out the regular procedures, she called immediately called in the riot squad*.  That's the action of someone who is very confident in her abilities, not someone who watched her sister get all the attention.  That's where the attitude that the world owes her what she wants because until the Queen's Gambit went down, it did give it to her, beauty, brains, a rich boyfriend and probably prom queen too.  (Ironically, the show keeps giving it to her too, which is why people complain that it's "unearned".)

 

Did Laurel call the cops on Sara because she wanted to correct Sara's course?  Or because she knew Sara was interested in Oliver and she wanted Oliver for herself?  We'll probably never know unless one of the EPs spills.

 

*That scene reminded me of something. When I was an undergrad, I worked part-time as a ward clerk in the emergency room of my local hospital (a great job, I recommend it).  Every year on July 1st, the new interns would arrive.  Some of them would see their first patients and order tests all on their own.  These were the ones you wanted to avoid as your doctor in the future. Others, knowing that they had very little experience and didn't know much, would go to the senior nurses to double check with them.  Even though the nurses were significantly lower on the status ladder, these interns appreciated just how much they knew and experienced, and used them to avoid making a mistake. Later on they did the test ordering all on their own but it's a wise man who knows what he knows not..

[Menrva]

 

 

I agree with your child parallels but I don't think that Sara was the golden child in the family, I think Laurel was while Sara was the screw-up.  When Sara came home from university mid-term, the question was asked if she had got kicked out, whereas the conversation with Laurel was about her applying to law school.  In season 2, Sara was the one who felt that she wasn't good enough, that what she had done wrong was so horrendous, she could never be forgiven.  When has Laurel felt she was wrong?  She's always been more 'sinned against than sinning'.

When Dinah came to Starling City looking for Sara, Laurel was angry at her for believing Sara was still alive and called in Quentin expecting him to tell her she was wrong. When Quentin started hoping himself, Laurel shut them both down in a very cruel way in Salvation.  But Sara was alive and did come back and Laurel's reaction to the attention being on Sara now rather than herself was to throw a wine glass in anger.

I actually agree with your analysis; I think I didn't explain my point very well. I don't think Sara was "the golden child". Rather, I believe it was more that "Sara is troubled and we need to support her to make better choices". And Laurel doesn't understand why someone wouldn't make the right choices right from the start. Perhaps Laurel wanted to punish her parents for supporting Sara when Sara returned because they chose to celebrate her not being dead rather than chastise for sleeping with Laurel's boyfriend. Maybe that's why Laurel chose to become an attorney? Because she would be in a position to punish those who broke the law? Although real life doesn't always work out that way…

 

It's sad that I spend so much energy trying to explain the motivations of a fictional character whose behavior is more the result of lazy/indifferent writing than anything else.

[KirkB]

It's sad that I spend so much energy trying to explain the motivations of a fictional character whose behavior is more the result of lazy/indifferent writing than anything else.

 

First of all, very good analysis. Well done. Secondly, I think the sad part is you, a viewer, have probably put way more thought into Laurel's motivations than the writers and EP's of the show.

Edited November 18, 2014 by KirkB

[statsgirl]

 Maybe that's why Laurel chose to become an attorney? Because she would be in a position to punish those who broke the law? Although real life doesn't always work out that way…

That makes sense.  And when she's angry that Sara's been killed, she goes vigilante and beats up a guy who she has heard hits his girlfriend.  Punishing him however she can, just as she wanted to punish Oliver when he first came back, and the Hood for letting Tommy die.

[formerlyfreedom]

Just wanted to remind everyone, that part of the mod note includes this line "Continued and/or repeated posts saying the same thing over and over again will be deleted."

 

If it's been said and you agree, use the 'like'; posts are being deleted when nothing new is being added to the conversation.

[chaos is welcome]

There was a moment during the dinner of doom when I felt very, very sorry for laurel. It was when lance said something to Dinah to the tune of (paraphrasing) "why wouldn't you want to move back, Sara is back home now."

I wonder how many times laurel was made to feel like she wasn't enough while Sara was gone, too...not enough to keep her dad sober, or her mom there. She wasn't enough to keep Oliver's d in his pants, no matter how much she wanted to be. There were so many moments with great potential for laurel to connect with Sara, connect with her family, connect with Oliver. The thing that is so frustrating is that they never capitalized on them, and the entire characterization fell flat. In part because they never (as is becoming the theme) let the character moments happen. It's annoying, mostly because the show is becoming boarder line unwatchable bc of it. Sometimes I can see shadows of what they could have done with the character ...things that would have made her an excellent character. But they chose to give whiplash to us instead.

Edited November 18, 2014 by chaos is welcome

[statsgirl]

When Dinah returned in season 1, she told Quentin that she moved to Central City because both he and Laurel had moved away from her, he into the bottle and his job and Laurel into her life, and she was so alone.  (This may have been a deleted scene, I can't remember.)  Laurel was applying to law schools and planning on moving out when the boat went down so she probably did soon after.

 

Of course, Laurel may have felt that she wasn't enough at the same time that Dinah felt that no one wanted or needed her.  Talking to people about your feelings is a good thing.

[Sakura12]

I think Sara was the trouble child and Laurel probably thought her parents paid too much attention to Sara and that made her jealous. While I think Sara didn't care whether or not her parents paid attention to her. Sara always seemed independent and someone that didn't care what others thought of her. 

 

Laurel is all about status and people paying attention to her. That's why she demands things rather than asks. 

 

Sara getting into trouble all time, Sara dying and Sara coming back took all the attention away from Laurel. That's probably why she's not telling her dad Sara died again. If she did, all the attention would be on Sara. Then she's trying to be a vigilante and beat people up making Quentin pay attention to her.

 

The writers have really screwed up in making Laurel a believable hero. It shouldn't have even been that hard. Sara killed people for hire and she was more of a hero than Laurel will ever be, with the way they've shown her and continue to show her character. I get them showing that Laurel is messing up now and everything but that's not enough for me. Laurel has no motivation to be a hero other than everyone is else is one so she wants to be too. Laurel just looks like a 5 year old kid saying "Gimmie, gimmie". 

 

That is not any incarnation of the Black Canary I want to see. Guggenheim is doing a worse disservice to Dinah Lance on this show then he did with his horrible comic run with the character. Even when she puts on the costume, she'll still be the BC in name only. She has no other characteristics, traits or skills from comic BC.

 

That's why I don't get the "Because Comics" argument. I would hope the character is more than just a name to comic fans. 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

When Dinah returned in season 1, she told Quentin that she moved to Central City because both he and Laurel had moved away from her, he into the bottle and his job and Laurel into her life, and she was so alone.  (This may have been a deleted scene, I can't remember.)  Laurel was applying to law schools and planning on moving out when the boat went down so she probably did soon after.

 

Of course, Laurel may have felt that she wasn't enough at the same time that Dinah felt that no one wanted or needed her.  Talking to people about your feelings is a good thing.

Yes it was a deleted scene, Dinah didn't leave until after Laurel left for Law School and she left because Quentin had crawled into his work, Laurel went on with her life and Dinah was left alone in her grief with a husband who wouldn't even go to counseling with her.   Lance didn't apparently crawl into a bottle until after Dinah left and he was alone while Laurel was at Law School.

 

[statsgirl]

Thanks, Morrigan.  So after Sara died, Laurel went off to law school and Quentin buried himself in his work.  He gets no points from me for "i stayed because I still had a daughter" when she wasn't even in the city.

 

It was a really good scene.  I wish the show had done more like that instead of the others.

(Also, I have to remember that that length of skirt is not a good look on someone of Dinah's age no matter how much I love it.)