Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[KirkB]

I'm not too familiar with the lesser known DC characters so I looked up Manhunter. After convincing Google I didn't mean the one from Mars I found the info I was looking for and you're right, that would be an interesting way to go. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Laurel being willing to kill people and conflicting with Oliver, who no longer is.

[BkWurm1]

In my view, Coulson is awful. Bland, smug, capable of only one facial expression (smug smirk, obviously) and a blackhole of anti-charisma

 

I came into Agents of Shield adoring Coulson and that included his rather placid demeanor.  He acts like I expected Coulson to act and I found and still find his kind of awkward earnest, straight arrow behavior endearing and charming. 

 

I like that he's supposed to be this awesome spy and that none of that is very obvious.  Smug becomes cute and smirk becomes sweet and boyish.  He's never been a character that is open about his feelings so any small hint or change in expression I see I pretty much amplify the meaning for and I've felt the "anti-charisma" is just another part of the calm, even personality he has.  He's steady and good and smart and patient and the rare occasions he's ruthless or impatient or even shouting or holding a grudge just makes those moments stand out more. 

 

He's not charming or charismatic in any standard way but I feel like even though we don't get to see the emotion in big ways, its always there.  I understand why someone might find him boring but I was past that before I started the show. 

 

I can't compare Laurel to Coulson because I don't think Laurel acts like Dinah Laurel Lance or Black Canary or a leading lady or a love interest should act.  She's prickly and unsteady and her motives and motivations are wildly all over the place.  The inconsistency is what more than anything has IMO made her a failed character.  Laurel isn't IMO believable, relatable,  likeable, or purposeful.  If she didn't represent a ruination of several other loved characters I would feel nothing but a passing irritation.

[Sakura12]

I'm not too familiar with the lesser known DC characters so I looked up Manhunter. After convincing Google I didn't mean the one from Mars I found the info I was looking for and you're right, that would be an interesting way to go. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Laurel being willing to kill people and conflicting with Oliver, who no longer is.

 

I forgot about the Martian Manhunter. It probably would've been easier to look up Kate Spencer. lol. But like I said, Laurel's already set up perfectly to take on that role without them having to force into a role that's already being played by someone better suited for it. Laurel already killed Blood's cop spy by shooting him about 10 times. So she definitely has the anger needed to begin as Manhunter did. She's already blackmailing people and going around the law to get what she wants on the criminals she thinks deserve to be punished. She'd still need more martial arts training but not near as much as the Black Canary requires. 

[Morrigan2575]

In my view, Coulson is awful. Bland, smug, capable of only one facial expression (smug smirk, obviously) and a blackhole of anti-charisma

I came into Agents of Shield adoring Coulson and that included his rather placid demeanor. He acts like I expected Coulson to act and I found and still find his kind of awkward earnest, straight arrow behavior endearing and charming.

Not to get too off topic but I think the big problem with Coulson (from my limited viewing) is that he's the straight man, the character works best when playing off/surrounded by larger than life characters. Making him the lead/hero doesn't work while keeping the same character type because he was never meant to be "the man"

[bluebonnet]

 

If they want to make Laurel into someone, they should make her Manhunter, who was a federal prosecutor that was fed up of the guilty criminals getting away their crimes. She stole evidence and blackmailed people to get what she wanted or killed the criminals herself. They pretty much have set it up perfectly for her to take on that role with what we've seen on screen. All the illegal things she's done during her hunt for Blood is basically the beginnings of Manhunter.

 

I could buy this.  I had been thinking that if they had made Laurel a competent lawyer, she would have been the perfect person to be legal counsel for all the various vigilantes that will ultimately pop up.  She could even be the crossover character for Flash.  I would be hard to buy her as some sort of fighter simply because her fight scenes have always lacked a natural ease to them.  Still, they've shown Laurel enough physically defending herself that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch.  I'm not sure if they intended drunk Laurel to be some sort of dark Laurel (if so, total failure), but they did have a line or two about "the darkness" so there is at least a platform for her to be a murderous vigilante.  

 

Yeah, more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm liking this.  

[pootlus]

Amell saves every scene he has with Laurel. But gods, it's like Cassidy is just not giving him anything to play off of.  Compare that with the earlier scene with Felicity where she is , in essence, giving him the same pep talk, that difference in quality and interplay is staggering.

 

Like I said over on TWoP, it's the dead eyes that get me.  She reads the lines but there's nothing behind them - it's completely empty and immediately destroys immersion.  There are also the other little tiny movements the other actors do with their head or their hands or their facial muscles that show what they're feeling.  Sadly it seems Cassidy has fallen victim to the 'my face must never move' brigade (why attractive young women want to freeze their facial muscles I have no idea) - I could see her attempting to furrow her brow when she was comforting Thea in the last episode, but nothing happened.

 

Perhaps if the other actors weren't so much better it would be less noticable.

[BumpSetSpike]

 

Like I said over on TWoP, it's the dead eyes that get me.  She reads the lines but there's nothing behind them - it's completely empty and immediately destroys immersion.  There are also the other little tiny movements the other actors do with their head or their hands or their facial muscles that show what they're feeling.  Sadly it seems Cassidy has fallen victim to the 'my face must never move' brigade (why attractive young women want to freeze their facial muscles I have no idea) - I could see her attempting to furrow her brow when she was comforting Thea in the last episode, but nothing happened.

 

 

That explains it perfectly.  The scene with Oliver telling Felicity and Dig that he was going to kill himself was so dang powerful and intense because they all rose to the same level of convincing storytelling.  When the scene with Laurel and Oliver started, she immediately takes you out of that scene and your thoughts go to how horrible she is and not what the scene is trying to convey.

[catrox14]

 

When the scene with Laurel and Oliver started, she immediately takes you out of that scene and your thoughts go to how horrible she is and not what the scene is trying to convey.

 

And aside from the bad acting, the main reason I hate that scene is that it became all about Laurel. (SURPRISE!)

 

In the similar scene with Felicity, Felicity is stressing to Oliver how much HIS presence helped her become who she is now which keeps the focus on Oliver and HIS importance, whereas the scene with Laurel is focusing on HER importance to Oliver.  Man that pisses me off.

Edited May 3, 2014 by catrox14

[Sakura12]

It's funny when I'm reading recaps of this show and they mention the strangeness of Cassidy's acting choices. 

 

This is from one of them.

Laurel looks down at the floor like a kid who’s being punished while Blood talks about what it’s like to lose a parent. I guess that’s the look they teach in acting class for expressing “I know you actually murdered your parents, bro.

 

During the Laurel bringing Oliver back from the darkness scene it looked like Laurel was staring at a dot on Oliver's forehead or something. I think the biggest issue is her scenes is they come across as unnatural and uncomfortable. That brings me out of the scene and shows me acting which you are not supposed to be seeing. I know Lotz is not the best actor either and has had some bad line readings, but a majority of the time Sara scenes don't bring me out of the show. 

[statsgirl]

With Cassidy, she almost always appears like she just really hates her job.

 

She sure didn't at the Calgary Fan Expo. She seemed positively delighted with the direction Laurel is going in .

It makes me very worried.

 

If they want to make Laurel into someone, they should make her Manhunter, who was a federal prosecutor that was fed up of the guilty criminals getting away their crimes.

It makes perfect sense but then she wouldn't be important enough in terms of the show or her connection to Oliver, though. For some reason, the EPs adore her and are determined to make her the show's lead. I thought when Felicity and later Sara were so well received

 

 

In the similar scene with Felicity, Felicity is stressing to Oliver how much HIS presence helped her become who she is now which keeps the focus on Oliver and HIS importance, whereas the scene with Laurel is focusing on HER importance to Oliver.

I've seen several comments in various places that the contrast between the two scenes shows how much better Laurel is for Oliver than Felicity because Laurel brought up his family and other people while Felicity made it all about Oliver himself, I guess reinforcing his self-absorption.

 

Once again, I don't  understand what the writers are going for.  Which was the better speech?  Laurel pulling in everything she knew about, and finally giving him the information he needed to keep going, or Felicity telling him not to sacrifice himself because he is a valuable person?

[catrox14]

 

I've seen several comments in various places that the contrast between the two scenes shows how much better Laurel is for Oliver than Felicity because Laurel brought up his family and other people while Felicity made it all about Oliver himself, I guess reinforcing his self-absorption.

 

Once again, I don't  understand what the writers are going for.  Which was the better speech?  Laurel pulling in everything she knew about, and finally giving him the information he needed to keep going, or Felicity telling him not to sacrifice himself because he is a valuable person?

 

 

I don't see where telling Ollie he is a valuable person who makes a difference is appealing to Oliver's self-absorption (which also, LOL what. a guy that is literally willing to trade his life for everyone else's is self-absorbed? ) Pre-island Ollie sure, but not this Ollie.  Whether the writers meant to make it about Laurel or not, that is how it came across to me with her whole "I know you like I know my own name (worst line ever no matter who says that). If it was solely about delivering the Blood information why have her say that at all? IMO, she knew Ollie the douchebro.  She doesn't know Ollie the Arrow.  So that's why none of that worked for me.

[pootlus]

"I know you like I know my own name (worst line ever no matter who says that). If it was solely about delivering the Blood information why have her say that at all? IMO, she knew Ollie the douchebro.  She doesn't know Ollie the Arrow.  So that's why none of that worked for me.

 

Presumably Laurel spells her name X-H-Q-F-T or something.  "Yes, it's pronounced Laurel, but it's spelled a bit differently." "Uh, Laurel, it's spelled L-A-U-R-E-L on your driver's license." "Are you saying I don't know my own NAME?"

[BkWurm1]

The knowing you like I know my own name line is probably a semi hostile reminder from the writers that she is fucking Dinah Laurel Lance and the name is all that matters.

Edited May 3, 2014 by BkWurm1

[icandigit]

I'm really confused.They way she says "partners" when talking about Felicity and Dig seems like she has contempt for them. Or like she's their parent and caught them tortuing the neighbors dog or something. Then the next minute she wants to push her way onto the team. I don't understand her.

[Danny Franks]

I came into Agents of Shield adoring Coulson and that included his rather placid demeanor.  He acts like I expected Coulson to act and I found and still find his kind of awkward earnest, straight arrow behavior endearing and charming. 

 

I like that he's supposed to be this awesome spy and that none of that is very obvious.  Smug becomes cute and smirk becomes sweet and boyish.  He's never been a character that is open about his feelings so any small hint or change in expression I see I pretty much amplify the meaning for and I've felt the "anti-charisma" is just another part of the calm, even personality he has.  He's steady and good and smart and patient and the rare occasions he's ruthless or impatient or even shouting or holding a grudge just makes those moments stand out more. 

 

He's not charming or charismatic in any standard way but I feel like even though we don't get to see the emotion in big ways, its always there.  I understand why someone might find him boring but I was past that before I started the show. 

 

I can't compare Laurel to Coulson because I don't think Laurel acts like Dinah Laurel Lance or Black Canary or a leading lady or a love interest should act.  She's prickly and unsteady and her motives and motivations are wildly all over the place.  The inconsistency is what more than anything has IMO made her a failed character.  Laurel isn't IMO believable, relatable,  likeable, or purposeful.  If she didn't represent a ruination of several other loved characters I would feel nothing but a passing irritation.

 

This is all why I think Coulson was fine as a bit part guy in the Marvel movies. I've said before that his dullness and bureaucratic pettiness was the perfect counterpoint to the larger-than-life garishness of Iron Man, Thor and Captain America. But making him the focal point of a show has demonstrated just how ill-suited such a character is to being any more than a bit part.

 

I've seen several comments in various places that the contrast between the two scenes shows how much better Laurel is for Oliver than Felicity because Laurel brought up his family and other people while Felicity made it all about Oliver himself, I guess reinforcing his self-absorption.

 

 

That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Laurel bringing up other people when Oliver was in the middle of being determined to sacrifice himself for those other people could easily have been utterly counterproductive, because it would be just as likely to reinforce his belief that he should do 'the right thing' for those people. Felicity making a point of talking about Oliver Queen's worth as a person in his own right? Talking about why he is a good man and why he should value himself? That seems like a better tactic.

 

Felicity was telling him "you are important. You make a difference." It didn't work, in that moment, but I think the sentiment was heartfelt and completely valid. Laurel's approach of tying Oliver's value into how his death would affect other people feels colder and less personal, to me. So, Laurel's appeal might have worked better, but I don't think it shows that she knows what is best for Oliver, in the long term.

[quarks]

I've seen several comments in various places that the contrast between the two scenes shows how much better Laurel is for Oliver than Felicity because Laurel brought up his family and other people while Felicity made it all about Oliver himself, I guess reinforcing his self-absorption.

 

 

Interesting on various levels:

 

1. This is the same episode where Laurel showed almost no concern for Sara, her family - brushing it off that she got a text from her. The people showing concern for Sara were Quentin and Felicity, who seemed genuinely worried. And since at this point Laurel is aware that her sister is a vigilante and has been fighting next to Oliver, you'd think Sara's name would have been brought up more. 

 

2. Suicidal people like Oliver genuinely believe that their friends and family are better off without them to the point where reminding suicidal people about their friends and family beyond "Is there someone else you can talk to? Is there someone who can be with you right now? Would you like to talk about your family/friends?" can sometimes make a person worse, to the point where what Laurel said - "Don't do this to me! Your friends! Your family!" is something counselors and suicide hotline people train family members not to say.

 

3.  If the idea is that Laurel is better for Oliver because she makes Oliver think of other people - that's pretty much exactly what Felicity has been doing since the Odyssey episode in almost every episode - getting Oliver to think about other people and the effect his actions have on them. She even started the season off convincing Oliver that he had to stop feeling all sorry for himself on the island and come back and save people's jobs at QC. So by that argument, Felicity is better for Oliver.  

[statsgirl]

I'm trying to think of in what possible way Laurel would be better for Oliver than anyone else, including Helena.  Even setting aside that she doesn't know Oliver and that he has successfully lied to her for 7 years, and that he's put her in the category of someone like Thea who he can't be honest with because she's too fragile to know the truth... Is there anything about Laurel that would be good for Oliver?

 

what Laurel said - "Don't do this to me! Your friends! Your family!" is something counselors and suicide hotline people train family members not to say.

Thanks, I didn't know that.  Nor, I hope, did the producers but why am I not surprised that what they had Laurel say is exactly the wrong thing?

 

This is all why I think Coulson was fine as a bit part guy in the Marvel movies. I've said before that his dullness and bureaucratic pettiness was the perfect counterpoint to the larger-than-life garishness of Iron Man, Thor and Captain America. But making him the focal point of a show has demonstrated just how ill-suited such a character is to being any more than a bit part.

I agree.  He was the perfect tie-in to get the movie audience to like the show but making him the team leader has ruined him for me (along with his OTT anger at May and the show's expectation that she needs to be the one to appease him.)

 

However, another way S.H.I.E.L.D. has ruined Coulson for me is his constant propping of Skye especially over Simmons who is a better character. Rather like the Arrow producers prop Laurel as knowing Oliver bestest over Sara and Felicity.

[BkWurm1]

Skye and Ward were the big disappointments for me. Your right that Coulson needs bigger characters around him but I think it could have been fine if this time bigger just meant bigger personality. Fitz and Simmons are perfect. May is the contrast to Coulson's boundless optimism but Ward has been a blank dull, boring, cold, consumed with duty guy - no joy. He should have been some reckless guy Coulson needed to hold back and teach patience. And Skye, sigh, the character is mildly better since they shot her and revealed a mysterious backstory better than random super hacker but I don't think the actress is up to playing the character. Toss in the horrid chemistry between ward and Skye and the shows clear intention to make them the OTP and just eww. Maybe she will continue to get better. AoS seems to recognize its problems and work to fix them. Ward has been revamped. Skye is now getting better writing though they still are trying to push the OTP thing and it's as bad as Oliver/Laurel levels of awkward IMO, but the show seems to have written in the ick factor on purpose now. The show isn't perfect but it is trying.

I don't think Arrow is trying anymore. Worse yet, the've fully reverted to their original intentions.

I feel like Arrow producers realized Laurel as a OTP and as a future BC wasn't working in season one. They seemingly grasped the mood of the audience and responded not only with creating Olicity moments to support the pairing but also in interviews and promos. Then added to this they brought on a fully fleshed out Black Canary and went out their way in the storyline to make Sara seem sympathetic AT the expense of Laurel. And now it's like someone else is running the show, or were they just waiting until in their mind they fixed Laurel? All the stuff that was bringing them praise and enthusiasm from the fans seems about to be completely scrapped. I just don't get it.

[Guest laurendrew]

Hi all, first comment here at the Arrow forum! I'm happy to find a place that seems to discuss the show maturely and without bashing each other lol. To be on topic, here's how I feel about Laurel. I actually posted it here before so if you check greenarrowtv.com you might have seen it.

 

Katie Cassidy is amazing at playing the bitchy, “bad girl” character. She was delightfully evil on Gossip Girl as Juliet. I just cannot buy her as the goody goody, saves the day “hero” Arrow is trying to sell her as. I try, I really do. I know she’s the “lead” and all the comic book canon nonsense, which makes me want to like Laurel so I won’t be disappointed with what has become one of my favorite shows. And before someone screams Olicity or some similar bs, it has nothing to do with shipping. We all know the true otp of the show is Oliver and Diggle anyway lol. I liked Katie Cassidy before watching Arrow, so I was surprised when I immediately disliked Laurel from the pilot episode. I think the character has been mishandled from the start and no amount of backtracking or forcing her into scenes will work now. To me, she feels completely out of place on the show. There is a distinct lack of chemistry between Katie and all the other actors except for Paul Blackthorne. The only time I’m not cringing at Laurel being on my screen is when she’s with her dad. When Katie is in a scene with anyone but Paul, it seems so forced and awkward. It’s jarring. I immediately lose interest in what is happening as soon as she enters a scene. It changes from “here’s Oliver and Thea talking…” to “oh, here’s Stephen, Willa, and Katie doing this scene together.” And it’s not Katie’s acting ability. Caity Lotz, in my opinion, isn’t as good of an actress as Katie Cassidy. But Sara is believable and fits into the show. I know why she’s there and it feels natural. Thanks to bad writing, I am constantly wondering why Laurel is on my screen and why I am even supposed to care what she’s doing. I’m sorry Arrow writers, but her having the name Dinah Laurel Lance does not make her automatically and seamlessly fit into the show as you’ve written it. I guess the good thing about more Laurel scenes is more opportunities for snack and bathroom breaks. Hopefully the writers can turn things around for next season, but after two seasons of mistreating the character I don’t know why they think we should care.

[BumpSetSpike]

 

We all know the true otp of the show is Oliver and Diggle anyway lol.

 

Actually the true OTP is Oliver and Sally, the salmon ladder, but Diggle is right up there ;)

[Guest laurendrew]

Actually the true OTP is Oliver and Sally, the salmon ladder, but Diggle is right up there ;)

True, true. I forgot about Sally! It's been far too long since we've seen her.

[TwistedandBored]

Laurel is here to stay. She will also get a major push next season. Minus her scenes, I hope the rest of the episodes action and story would be good during season 3. However, since I know these writers. I won't hold my breath. 

[quarks]

I decided to bring the rest of my thoughts on Cassidy's description of Laurel as a "good-doer" over here. I found Cassidy's insistence on this interesting.  Partly because of the phrasing - "good-doer" to me sounds like, er, someone that just does - that is, sleeps with - good people. I realize that wasn't at all what Cassidy meant, but it's interesting that she didn't use the word "do-gooder."  Which can also sometimes have the negative connotation of someone interfering in other people's lives without finding out important stuff first, but at least implies that yes, the person is running around trying to do good things - feed the poor, heal the sick, prevent forest fires, whatever.

 

But let me go with what I think Cassidy was going for here, which is to say, Laurel also is someone who does good things - or at least tells herself that she's done good things. And sometimes, we even see this on the show - quite a few in the first season, and most recently in Birds of Prey, where she convinced Sara to go back for the hostages and not kill Helena.

 

But then we keep seeing all of the times when Laurel has NOT been a good person: when she was willing to let her legal clinic shut down, harming several people, rather than accept Tommy's help; blackmailing her boss, twice; stealing drugs; shooting someone in the back (ok, he'd kidnapped her, but still); sleeping with Oliver just a couple of days after Tommy dumped her.  This is actually all ok - characters work better when they are allowed to have shades of grey, and honestly, given everything that happened to Laurel in the past, she probably shouldn't be saintly.

 

So my question here is: have the writers told Cassidy that Laurel is supposed to be a good person?

 

Because right there, that's yet another disconnect: Cassidy has been told that she's playing a good person, and yet she can read the script and see otherwise, which causes a major disconnect, and issues with the acting. She's also being told that Laurel loves Oliver because he's a good person - except that the Oliver she's seen in recent months hasn't been a good person, or been good to Laurel. 

 

That's got to be hard to play, which may explain a lot of the problems I'm seeing here. 

 

And more to the point, if so, then why do the writers keep failing to give Laurel likeable, good moments?

 

Over on TWOP, before "Birds of Prey" aired, I noted that Laurel was the sole character, good or bad, who had failed to do anything heroic or for that matter even accomplish something - anything - the entire season so far. Indeed, her first attempt to do something heroic led to her getting captured; the second led to the bad guy getting away. That right there is a definite disconnect: viewers are being told that this is the character who will be the heroic Black Canary - especially in this last episode - and yet, viewers are seeing a character who is doing no such thing. This can work, by the way, if certain character beats are established first, especially if played for laughs - Romancing the Stone did it brilliantly.  Though to be fair, Romancing the Stone was also careful to create a setup where the first things we find out about Joan Wilder is that she will rush off to save her sister after a single phone call and that she loved and pampered her cat, so she was seen to be a good person first, before we saw how completely unsuited she was to actual adventure/heroism.

 

Anyway. As of this past episode, Laurel has now finally done two (count them, two) heroic things, both in Birds of Prey; and accomplished two (count them, two) general things: getting her job back and bugging Blood's office. And what did she do this information about Blood? She took it to Oliver to handle. And her second heroic moment - stopping Sara from killing Helena - was not exactly an Action moment for her.

 

I think this is why her later actions - showing up in the Arrow Cave and demanding to come along -  feel not just unearned, but off to me, and why I'm wondering if I will see them differently once this show ends and I know what happened because of those scenes.  Right now, I see them as the first steps to her becoming the Black Canary, and given the speed at which this show moves, this is suggesting to me - rightly or wrongly - not someone who has gone through a hellish year and is now finally ready to fight back (which is one thing the show might be going for, maybe), but rather someone who has accomplished zilch suddenly elevated to hero. That might be an interesting story - how can she handle it, given that Oliver Queen, who had a lot more going for him on this road to start with, is still trying to figure out what a hero is and how he can be a hero.  Especially if it's a journey with a lot of bumps in the road. But the key there is "might." If the show acknowledges that she's not really ready to be a hero - that might be interesting.  But I'm not sure the show is going to go there.

[writersblock51]

Laurel may be 'here to stay' but I'm of the opinion that she hasn't added anything to the show that couldn't be done by anyone else. Or, the show just would have hummed along without in the first place.

 

I gave this list to someone else with my theory:

If Laurel never existed on this show, take a moment to think about how things would be different.

a) S1: No Laurel but Oliver would still be facing Quentin's anger & grief for the loss of Sara on the boat

b) S1: Tommy and Oliver would have stayed friends, Tommy may not have listened to his batshit, blood thirsty father, and he'd still be alive since he wouldn't have gone to the Glades at all

c) S2: Roy, Thea and Sin would have followed up with the Blood is Evil story, hopefully convincing Oliver to look into it more.  Which would have still linked to Slade being in town

d) S2: Oliver and Sara would have saved Quentin from the Dollmaker

e) S2: Malcolm still would have rigged Moira's trial to get her released

f) S2: A wineglass would have been spared

g) S2: Sara and her parents would have a wonderful reunion, with rainbows and unicorns

h) S2: Slade and Blood would still be doing everything they can to destroy Oliver, his family and Starling City

 

The bottom line is that the show could easily do without Laurel - and they could have from the beginning. And Oliver's character?  Maybe he'd been less of a jerk but still, pre-island, would have been a serial womanizer who also got 1 girl pregnant.  Whose picture would he have carried around?  Sara's?  Does it matter, really?  At this point, most viewers know that his "love" for Laurel was based more on guilt than anything else.

 

But since the show seems hellbent on keeping her around, I say Manhunter is the way to go (and definitely not the Martian variety, hahaha). I keep thinking that the Kate Spencer appearances aren't without meaning.

 

And if Laurel really wasn't integral to Oliver/Arrow's life already, then her being Manhunter won't make much difference.

Edited May 7, 2014 by writersblock51

[TwistedandBored]

I know she hasn't added anything to the show. But, it seems like these writers are not hearing their fans. They live in alternate universe where Laurel is well liked. 

[Sakura12]

I know people will say the internet fans don't make up the majority but if the dislike of Laurel has gotten all the way to the producers it's enough people for them to notice it. 

[ArctisTor]

All these Katie Cassidy interviews of late and her really seeming to try to make any kind of effort, even being super-gushy?  When she's pretty much done little to zip with regard to promoting her character, much less "Arrow" as a whole, in ages?  I suppose this is what my brain does, but all I could think was she's getting in whatever self-promotion she can while she can because she knows:

 

A) The media has a tendency to focus on certain aspects of "Arrow", herself and her character tend not to be among those things. (From what I can tell, the media tends to love the action sequences/stunts, Oliver/Stephen Amell, Team Arrow, Olicity and Felicity/EBR).
 

B) If any significant attention is given to any of these other aspects of "Arrow" the media loves in the last two eps of the season?  She knows she's likely going to get steamrolled and she and her character potentially forgotten all summer.  Even if Laurel does manage to get some story which could be considered relevant in the overall narrative / season 3, Cassidy believes the media won't focus on that or won't care.  Or worse, could even potentially pan it, make it some kind of punchline and then ignore it.  

 

C)  I think she and the EPs already know whatever happens probably won't turn the audience tide in favor of her character, so she's got to try to focus on working the media.  Again, while she can.

 

I'm wondering if whatever Laurel has left in the last two eps, we pretty much saw the bulk of it in the trailers?  2x22 could be the last portion of Laurel in any substantial way for the remainder of the season?  Hence all the more reason Cassidy is getting out there right now.

 

Of course, the media tends to focus on the stuff they know will get them some traffic/sell magazines and considering that, more often than not, tends NOT to be news about Cassidy or her character in "Arrow"?  I think she's either in denial of that or her people have encouraged her to put herself out there much more than she has done the past several months because they know they may not get many more opportunities after whatever happens in the finale happens.  I'm just wondering if something's happened where things got very real for her and potentially for her place in "Arrow" and it's finally got her out there doing something about it.  Except it all kind of feels way too little, too late.  Though anything here is basically Sisyphus climbing up that mountain considering how indifferent the fans and media are to or flat-out dislike Laurel.   Largely for sound, justifiable reasons and unfortunately for her, it's not all her fault and that other stuff she can do virtually nothing about.  When the writing for Laurel isn't schizophrenic, it's just plain dull and removed from the action or some mess of all three of those.  As many have pointed out, doesn't help in the slightest either she has almost this anti-chemistry with Stephen Amell.  It's like a void every time Laurel and Oliver are in a scene together attempting to be ~romantic~.

Edited May 7, 2014 by ArctisTor

[quarks]

Arctis Tor, I think your theory is very possible. 

 

To add to that, I'll just note that convention appearances are sometimes arranged by the show, and sometimes by the agent/convention. As a SAG-Astra actor Cassidy has to get paid, but that doesn't necessarily mean the show has pay her. Usually conventions pay, and some actors have made a decent to more than decent living doing the convention circuit. And although this may not be as true for actors, it can be a good place to network/pick up new work. I don't think Cassidy is concerned about the money, but she might well want to be out there and being very visible.

 

To further add to that, a few other interesting notes from her interviews:

 

1. She states that she's been told the long term plan for her character. She may very well believe this. But that statement is contradicted by other things, notably:

 

The other actors on the show have all said that they don't know the long term plans for their characters at all; Colton Haynes even sounds frustrated about this. Amell and Ramsey have apparently been told that next season will be more "intimate," which now seems to be a reference to the plot twist of this season where Oliver loses all his money, therefore ending the formal balls and all that. But that's about it.

 

In these same interviews, she also says that she doesn't know what role she'll be playing in Team Arrow. If she knew for certain what her role would be, the answer should have been - "Laurel's got some really exciting stuff coming up with Team Arrow, and I'm so delighted that I finally got to do this," or, if the idea is that she's not going to be Black Canary, it would have been - "Well, it's not the role you'd expect for Laurel Lance - but it gives Laurel a chance to discover who she really is." 

 

And she tells us that when she read the script where Slade tells Laurel his secret, she was shocked and initially scared that she would be the next one to die, given what happens to people who find out Oliver's secret.  I believe that, but if she knew the long term goal - unless the long term goal was death - why the fear?

 

2. That statement about characters learning Oliver's secret and then dying was revealing in another way: Cassidy's not stupid, and she can see that the show killed off the character everyone initially assumed would eventually be one of the Big Bads (Tommy) and killed off the character played by arguably the best known/most lauded actress on the show, who has gained critical praise for her role - right after these characters learned the truth. I'd panic too.

 

3. Last episode, these interviews and the long term plan comments suggest that Laurel is becoming the Canary. Which is fine, except that, again, in these same interviews she specifically states that if Laurel found out some life-threatening secret she'd go to Oliver, not to Sara, because she knows from her own personal experience that sisters can be harsh and Oliver won't be. Which in turn means that she's telling us that if Laurel ever learns a life threatening secret, her first response is not, "What can I do about this to save lives," or even, "Who's the best person to help me save lives here, Sara or Oliver," but instead, "Who will make me feel better about this?"

 

It's an incredibly unheroic response, and this, along with her admission that she hasn't read the comic books yet, suggests that no one has yet sat down with her and discussed what a hero is or what Laurel thinks a hero is, which is pretty critically important given that the entire show is exploring what heroism is. That's the whole point, that Oliver Queen doesn't know what a hero is, thinks he wants to become one, and is trying to figure the whole thing out. This was just discussed back in the Birds of Prey episode and in the Seeing Red episode. The show is not subtle about this.

 

4. I realize that between this comment and my rant over at TWOP I probably sound obsessive about this, but honestly, the quote is one of the most worrisome things on the show, because it suggests that Cassidy, who in other interviews has sounded intelligent and knowledgeable about the show, doesn't know what type of show she's in. She is instead focusing on the soulmate issue and being a support system to Oliver.  Which is another problem for the Laurel character: the show has blatantly set up Felicity and Sara as crime fighting partners/teammates and occasional emotional support systems.  Given that Sara took off because although she could be Oliver's fighting partner, she couldn't be Oliver's emotional partner, it makes some sense for Cassidy to focus on this as the way Laurel stands out - except for one slight problem: viewers have been expecting Black Canary to be Oliver's partner, not his support system.

 

5. Meanwhile that soulmate thing sounds like something that Cassidy has latched on to so that she can explain to herself why Laurel is even still talking to Oliver. I can see that. 

 

Overall, though, showrunners generally don't comment on negative feedback from fans unless there's a lot of negative feedback from multiple places.

 

My personal guess right now - and I've been very wrong before, so, throw grains of salt around - is that Laurel will survive this season.  But not necessarily next season, or even all of next season.  After all, this season was the "throw different plot lines at Laurel and see what works," so we had Vengeful Laurel, Self-Pity Laurel, Investigation Laurel, Drunk Laurel, Depressed Laurel, Throwing Innocent Stemware Laurel; Getting Yelled at Laurel; Relationship Counselor Laurel; I Will Stay With the Hostages Even If This Makes No Sense Laurel; Actually Heroic There for a Moment Laurel; Blackmail Laurel; and Huggy Laurel. Fan response to all of this has probably been collected by interns along the way, along with ratings/whatever Amazon numbers they can get. And that might mean still More Laurels next season. Or a write-off of the character.

[Sakura12]

After all, this season was the "throw different plot lines at Laurel and see what works," so we had Vengeful Laurel, Self-Pity Laurel, Investigation Laurel, Drunk Laurel, Depressed Laurel, Throwing Innocent Stemware Laurel; Getting Yelled at Laurel; Relationship Counselor Laurel; I Will Stay With the Hostages Even If This Makes No Sense Laurel; Actually Heroic There for a Moment Laurel; Blackmail Laurel; and Huggy Laurel. Fan response to all of this has probably been collected by interns along the way, along with ratings/whatever Amazon numbers they can get. And that might mean still More Laurels next season. Or a write-off of the character.

What's funny is that's how I viewed Laurel last season as well. She was whatever Laurel they needed for the plot. She wasn't a fully fleshed out character in season 1 and she's even less of one now. Which I really didn't think was possible. 

[quarks]

She was inconsistent last season, but I don't think she was this inconsistent.

 

And also, last season she was only contrasted with her friend Joanna, who was just there to be the Supportive Friend; Helena, who was nuts; McKenna, who screamed Temporary Character; Thea, who last season was a spoiled brat; and Felicity, who babbled and was funny but was rarely on screen next to her until the last couple of episodes.

 

This episode, Oliver had to talk Laurel through shooting a single arrow towards a wall just as Felicity, without orders or advice, was running over Isabel and arranging to get the Mirakuru cure from Star Labs. Right after that, the show had Sara run into a burning building to save a kid while Laurel stood in the street. 

 

And you know, that's fine if the plan is to keep her in the DA's office as a supporting character - the Oliver's support system character. Not everyone on the show needs to be a hero. But if the plan is to turn into into Black Canary, we need to know why the woman standing in the street should be that hero instead of the woman that just saved a kid. 

[catrox14]

That's more versions of Laurels than Sam Winchesters and that's not including demon possession! That's gotta be a record! Also LOL

Edited May 8, 2014 by catrox14

[BkWurm1]

It made sense that she gave the pep-talk to Sarah and Oliver since both, in a way, have wronged her. But even so SHE sees how much they've changed and how much good they have/will do

 

But she has no first hand knowledge as to how much either her sister or Oliver really have changed.  Yes she now knows that Oliver is the Arrow but she is barely familiar with the post island Oliver. 

 

It's not like Laurel and Oliver have spent lots of time off screen together since the beginning of season 1.  An ice cream "date", a dozen or so short conversations, a hook up after Tommy, a dinner out and crashing dinner with her family.  On the Arrow's side a few more meet ups and a trip to county records.  And that is IT.  Laurel knows the new Oliver less than she knows Blood or that assistant DA she used to almost date.   

 

She has spent more off screen time with her sister but she doesn't know or even have a clue about the biggest parts of her past.  Maybe she can see Sara has a different approach to life but Sara feels like she is beyond forgiveness and how can Laurel offer that forgiveness if she isn't even aware of what needs to be forgiven?? 

 

It's this utter disconnect from reality that keeps me from being able to root for Laurel saying anything meaningful.  The words are great but they come from ignorance and a place of self delusion.  She has no weight behind what she says.  She may passionately feel what she says is true but her speeches come without authority. 

[quarks]

That's actually why I liked Laurel's speech to Sara much more than her speech to Oliver. Laurel said something along the lines of admitting that she didn't know everything that Sara had been through, which started things off on an honest note. Then, she didn't completely try to disagree with Sara's self-assessment - since she didn't know what Sara had done. Instead, she offered a distraction by asking about the name, and then twisting something good from that name.

 

Mind you, the line was as corny as hell, and also, a group of assassins finding something beautiful about you is probably not the best sign that your morality is on track, but this was a lot better than Laurel telling Oliver, all evidence to the contrary, that she knows him better than anyone else, and also taking forever to get to the actual point of "Hey, remember Blood? He's evil."  Or the "you should take me along! You're risking their lives, why not mine? I can help!" and then running off after a wall fell near her. So I was ok with it. 

[BkWurm1]

Mind you, the line was as corny as hell, and also, a group of assassins finding something beautiful about you is probably not the best sign that your morality is on track

 

Yeah, there is this.  Lol.

 

I didn't really mind Laurel trying to cheer up Sara but if the question is who would be the best person to give this pep talk, well, it's all very sweet to have big sis find something nice to say but how helpful is it in the long run? 

[Sakura12]

Mind you, the line was as corny as hell, and also, a group of assassins finding something beautiful about you is probably not the best sign that your morality is on track,

That's exactly it, Laurel doesn't know a thing about Sara. Ta-Er al-Asfer (however it's spelled) is Sara's assassin name. That's the name she used to kill people. So yes, Laurel, Sara can take a beautiful name do horrible things with it. To take a line from a far superior show. "You know nothing Laurel Lance"

[quarks]

Maybe Laurel was thinking of that show and thinking, well, at least they didn't name you Reek. Or even Grey Worm.

[Gwen-Stacys]

I can't compare Laurel to Coulson because I don't think Laurel acts like Dinah Laurel Lance or Black Canary or a leading lady or a love interest should act.  She's prickly and unsteady and her motives and motivations are wildly all over the place. 

 

I didn't realize a leading lady was meant to act a certain way. You mean like quirky and bubbly? I disagree. Their are plenty of leading ladies -in books and TV- who aren't conventional or overly likable. I think that's very realistic. She's going through a lot (e.g. Tommy's death which she blames on herself; the man she wanted to spend her life with comes back after he swanned off with her sister -an act that ultimately cost her sister her life; said sister coming back from the dead and Joker-in-a-nurse's-uniforming her (i.e. Hi.....)) and she spent the season trying to find a way to deal. There were a lot of emotions and feelings that I don't think Laurel felt like she had a right to feel or were wrong of her to feel in light of everything (betrayal, anger, guilt, etc). In response, she buried them. When they came bubbling up to the surface, she used alcohol and pills to bury them even further. Her recovery as an addict had to do with her owning up to her feelings and working through them. Of course she'd be erratic! Most addicts (recovering or otherwise) are. They're unpredictable and they're frustrating (for the people that care about them). I thought her arch this season was very realistic (if not a bit rushed). She ended this season forgiving the two people who turned her world upside down -Oliver and Sara. 

 

Now, is Laurel my favorite character? No, not at all. Sara is. Followed by Thea, Oliver, and Diggle in that order. But I ptsd from all the Lois Lane hate from the early Smallville fandom, as well as a thing for defending characters who get so much hate....Laurel's thread is full of hate...and it has so many posts in it. It reminds me of the way people (who didn't read the books) hate Sans and blame her for a lot of the bad things that happened to her family. I guess I just. Don't. Get it.

 

I didn't really mind Laurel trying to cheer up Sara but if the question is who would be the best person to give this pep talk, well, it's all very sweet to have big sis find something nice to say but how helpful is it in the long run? 

 

You'd be surprised how much a word from an older sister can do for a younger sister. Sara's been feeling guilty about a lot and to have Laurel basically end the episode being proud of her.....that probably meant more than anything Oliver, Dt. Lance, etc could have said to her. Now that Laurel has her back, Sara has her family back. She has their approval, their love, and their support. And the fact that it doesn't matter to her big sister what she's done..../shrugs

[Sakura12]

And the fact that it doesn't matter to her big sister what she's done..../shrugs

 

Laurel doesn't know the things she's done though. She just found that Sara runs around town fighting crime in a costume like 2 weeks ago. That's why I felt that Laurel's speech while uplifting to hear doesn't mean much since she knows nothing about what Sara's actually going through. All she knows is Sara has a bunch of scars (which means that all this time Sara's been back she never bothered to ask her about what happened) and that she's a vigilante. She doesn't know about Sara helping torture men with a mad scientist, that Sara was willing to strap a bomb to man so he can blow up another man and the biggest thing she has no clue that Sara was a killer for hire. 

 

Sara was depressed about being a killer. Since Laurel does not have that important information of course she's going to tell Sara she's a good person. So having someone that doesn't know that say nice things isn't going to mean much. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by Sakura12

[Zalyn]

I didn't realize a leading lady was meant to act a certain way. You mean like quirky and bubbly? I disagree.

 

Now, is Laurel my favorite character? No, not at all. Sara is. Followed by Thea, Oliver, and Diggle in that order. But I ptsd from all the Lois Lane hate from the early Smallville fandom, as well as a thing for defending characters who get so much hate....Laurel's thread is full of hate...and it has so many posts in it. It reminds me of the way people (who didn't read the books) hate Sans and blame her for a lot of the bad things that happened to her family. I guess I just. Don't. Get it.

 

[snip]

You'd be surprised how much a word from an older sister can do for a younger sister. Sara's been feeling guilty about a lot and to have Laurel basically end the episode being proud of her.....that probably meant more than anything Oliver, Dt. Lance, etc could have said to her. Now that Laurel has her back, Sara has her family back. She has their approval, their love, and their support. And the fact that it doesn't matter to her big sister what she's done..../shrugs

 

Hi again, Gwen-Stacys.  I'm glad you came over here. I do encourage you to start at the beginning to try to get a feel for how our feelings about Laurel have evolved over the last season.  I'm sure you wouldn't mind doing the reading since you are an advocate for reading the source material first before jumping to conclusions.

 

I can't speak for others, but I'm glad to see a female character in the spotlight who isn't trying to be ditzy and cheery all the time.  But it's frustrating to see the EP insist that Laurel and Oliver at the OTP we're supposed to root for when the scenes between Laurel and Oliver have mostly been ascerbic and tense, and the chemistry between the actors, SA and KC, has been very negative.  It would be better if Laurel could be an interesting antagonist to Oliver/Arrow, but instead she is being shoehorned into a romantic relationship with him when it's not appropriate for either character and not feasible to watch on-screen.

 

Laurel's storylines have been poorly written and have not done the character justice; again, the EP said she was going "dark", which seemed to allude to her drug problem, but I don't see being addicted in itself as dark.  If others came to harm because of her addiction and she didn't care, that would be dark.  She as a character deserved more scenes that allowed her to emotionally connect with others, like Det. Lance, Sara, maybe even Thea (a former addict), but any conversations they had were mostly short and serving other plotlines.  In the last episode, I wish Laurel had actually emphasize that she is Sara's big sister; that would have been a powerful emotional cue to use, but the writers didn't bother, one of many failures on their parts.

 

Finally, Laurel doesn't get to make her own choices; there are many examples in this thread where her "choices" were actually rehashes of other characters' motivations or intentions.  She deserved to represent herself more with her own agency.

 

I am trying to give you some of the background for the negative feeling around here towards the character of Laurel, and I once again encourage you to read the full thread before you come in accusing us of being haters.  It is hard to take you seriously when you only seem interested in throwing out accusations and blame without starting an actual conversation.

[BkWurm1]

Quote: ""She's going through a lot (e.g. Tommy's death which she blames on herself; the man she wanted to spend her life with comes back after he swanned off with her sister -an act that ultimately cost her sister her life; said sister coming back from the dead and Joker-in-a-nurse's-uniforming her (i.e. Hi.....)) and she spent the season trying to find a way to deal. There were a lot of emotions and feelings that I don't think Laurel felt like she had a right to feel or were wrong of her to feel in light of everything (betrayal, anger, guilt, etc). In response, she buried them. When they came bubbling up to the surface, she used alcohol and pills to bury them even further. Her recovery as an addict had to do with her owning up to her feelings and working through them. Of course she'd be erratic! Most addicts (recovering or otherwise) are. They're unpredictable and they're frustrating (for the people that care about them). I thought her arch this season was very realistic (if not a bit rushed). She ended this season forgiving the two people who turned her world upside down -Oliver and Sara. ""

I I think this arc could have been done in a manner that might have been compelling and sympathetic but I found it undersold then way oversold, a whole lot of bad writing and weak and confusing acting (she's on pills and drinking but I couldn't tell the difference) and her pity party is constantly compared to others who have had a much worse time of it which meant in that context which is what I felt the show did, she came off not looking like a trauma victim but someone who was weak in character and a ungrateful whiner. Then poof, a sudden dramatic turn around, zero to sixty and she forgives everyone which was just as unbelievable and now all the crap that she did and said is whitewashed out of existence and still Laurel is portrayed as entitled, snobbish and self centered.

I don't think I should have to convince myself to appreciate a character the show has not done a good job IMO making worth my appreciation. I hate because the character is badly drawn and I despise when a show tries to pretend it's done it's job when it hasn't. Laurel needs to earn her lines and place on the show and that doesn't seem to be happening.

[Gwen-Stacys]

Quote: ""She's going through a lot (e.g. Tommy's death which she blames on herself; the man she wanted to spend her life with comes back after he swanned off with her sister -an act that ultimately cost her sister her life; said sister coming back from the dead and Joker-in-a-nurse's-uniforming her (i.e. Hi.....)) and she spent the season trying to find a way to deal. There were a lot of emotions and feelings that I don't think Laurel felt like she had a right to feel or were wrong of her to feel in light of everything (betrayal, anger, guilt, etc). In response, she buried them. When they came bubbling up to the surface, she used alcohol and pills to bury them even further. Her recovery as an addict had to do with her owning up to her feelings and working through them. Of course she'd be erratic! Most addicts (recovering or otherwise) are. They're unpredictable and they're frustrating (for the people that care about them). I thought her arch this season was very realistic (if not a bit rushed). She ended this season forgiving the two people who turned her world upside down -Oliver and Sara. ""

I I think this arc could have been done in a manner that might have been compelling and sympathetic but I found it undersold then way oversold, a whole lot of bad writing and weak and confusing acting (she's on pills and drinking but I couldn't tell the difference) and her pity party is constantly compared to others who have had a much worse time of it which meant in that context which is what I felt the show did, she came off not looking like a trauma victim but someone who was weak in character and a ungrateful whiner. Then poof, a sudden dramatic turn around, zero to sixty and she forgives everyone which was just as unbelievable and now all the crap that she did and said is whitewashed out of existence and still Laurel is portrayed as entitled, snobbish and self centered.

I don't think I should have to convince myself to appreciate a character the show has not done a good job IMO making worth my appreciation. I hate because the character is badly drawn and I despise when a show tries to pretend it's done it's job when it hasn't. Laurel needs to earn her lines and place on the show and that doesn't seem to be happening.

 

Thank you for the welcome! And thank you for having a discussion with me vs an argument (I mean it. I really really appreciate it).

 

Oh I agree the writing has been a bit shoddy for characters all over the show. Diggle has a motive/life outside of Oliver, but with Felicity she's been demoted to Ollie's cheerleader?! Please do better show! I need more female characters who's stories and lives aren't male love interest focused like Thea's and Sara's. Both have issues and story lines that go outside their romantic prospects.  I would love that for Laurel (she had it in season 1 when she was focused on fighting for people who didn't have the means to fight for themselves.) as well as Felicity. 

 

Now, to the person who said that Laurel doesn't know what Sara's been through (idk how to quote you.....), Laurel says much of the same. I think the writers could have done a better job with what she had to say about Sara's alias being The Canary. Canaries, in a sense, could be seen as protectors. From Wikepedia "Canaries were once regularly used in coal mining as an early warning system.[9] Toxic gases such as carbon monoxide, methane or carbon dioxide in the mine would kill the bird before affecting the miners. Signs of distress from the bird indicated to the miners that conditions were unsafe."

 

It would've been more poignant if she'd said something to that effect instead of focusing on their beauty. But that's on the writers, not Laurel or KC. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys

[BkWurm1]

I like your idea about focusing in on the greater symbolism for a canary. Laurel could have said she didn't know what the name used to represent, but she knows what it could mean and then launch into the good things she does know that Sara has been doing. (I would buy that she's heard of the woman in black out there protecting women in the glades, plus didn't she save Laurels life?). I wanted to root for what Laurel was saying and it wasn't offensive, but it could have been so much more!

And I am so glad I didn't come off as argumentative. I don't mean to. I respect that others are going to view what's on screen differently and I welcome seeing it from another perspective. I too suffer from PTSD after Smallville. And yes, I do see some alarming similarities between how Laurel and Lois are being used, but I'm trying not to let that make me too crazed.

[Sakura12]

The writers write for Laurel so it is Laurel. I did say what she said to Sara is uplifting, but doesn't mean much since she doesn't the know the real reason Sara is upset. So her words have empty meaning behind it. Felicity's speech to Oliver meant more because she knows the man he was in the past and she knows the man he is now. 

 

A lot of Laurel's lines can be said differently to make the scene better but that's not how they choose to go. So that is Laurel character we are being presented with. And most of the time she comes across as very unlikable or completely unnecessary. They said they were going to fix her this season and imo they haven't. The producers, writers and executives are aware Laurel's not liked, so it's more then just a few disgruntled internet fans. It was enough for them to notice and acknowledge. But obviously not understand the reason she's not well liked. 

 

The biggest issue for me is I don't like Laurel and I don't want her replacing the characters I do like which seems to be what they plan on doing. Sara dying so she can become BC makes very little sense and is not something I want to see. So for that I can't bring myself to enjoy a character that is going to force another character out. So yes, it is the writers fault for thinking that bringing in Sara, making her an awesome female character just to be a place holder for a character that is not well liked was a dumb move on their part. 

 

I can't see Laurel and Lois as the same because Laurel was the one there from the beginning. Lois came in the third or fourth season I forgot which one. So she was the new character, much like Sara. She was the one that had to work their way into the established cast and audience. Laurel is more the Lana, the character we're supposed to like but don't because the way they write the character. 

Edited May 9, 2014 by Sakura12

[BkWurm1]

The reason I see Laurel and Lois in a similar light is because they are both the character that comes with the name and in both cases in order to get the destiny tied up with the name, other characters have to be sacrificed and I found Lois to be written as badly if not more so than Laurel. She never earned her ultimate place on the show IMO. She was just hanging out for several seasons not adding much more than IMO cringeworthy comic relief until one day 8 years of characterization was ignored and Lois was handed the title bestest reporter ever and can't live without status out of no where not to mention knows him better than anyone and I was told so what, she's Lois Lane, just go with it. :(

They way I see it Sara is first as Canary and therefore Laurel can only come later like Lois did.

Edited May 9, 2014 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

 

She's going through a lot (e.g. Tommy's death which she blames on herself; the man she wanted to spend her life with comes back after he swanned off with her sister -an act that ultimately cost her sister her life; said sister coming back from the dead and Joker-in-a-nurse's-uniforming her (i.e. Hi.....)) and she spent the season trying to find a way to deal. There were a lot of emotions and feelings that I don't think Laurel felt like she had a right to feel or were wrong of her to feel in light of everything (betrayal, anger, guilt, etc). In response, she buried them. When they came bubbling up to the surface, she used alcohol and pills to bury them even further. Her recovery as an addict had to do with her owning up to her feelings and working through them. Of course she'd be erratic!

 

Just to weigh in.  I'm not a fan of Laurel and I think Cassidy is not very good in the role but I did like her on Supernatural.

 

Feel free to correct me here, but I can't remember any dialogue or acting nuances that communicated that she blamed herself for Tommy's death at pre addiction issues or during recovery. But to be fair, sometimes I do kind of check out during Laurel scenes but I can honestly say that I do not remember that ever being directly or indirectly shown. I remember she told Oliver that she was upset and wondered why everyone she loves leaves her, which IMO didn't really communicate that she blamed herself just that she felt abandoned...by Tommy. The only time I recollect Laurel seemingly feeling ashamed of her actions was during Moira's trial when she couldn't understand how Oliver could still talk to her (which was a really weird scene because Laurel was doing her job which she should have recused herself from anyway but that's a whole other kettle of fish).

 

If Laurel's supposed self-loathing over Tommy's death was the reason for her addiction issues, it sure didn't come across to this viewer. IMO, Cassidy never played any kind of self-loathing underneath it all. Contrast that with Paul Blackthorne who communicated with nuance beyond the dialogue that Lance had been an alcoholic and that he regretted it immensely and did not want that for Laurel.  I might even argue that Blackthorne did more to communicate Laurel's problems than Cassidy.

 

Worse yet,though, is that the show seems to be wanting to use Laurel's very incomplete and badly underplayed addiction storyline as her crucible  as a parallel with Sara's crucible as a victim-of-the-island-turned-killer-to-survive-turned-assassin-turned-hero.  And I think that is where a lot of the resentment towards Laurel comes from.  That her weak storylines are being used to propel her into a more important role in the show as BC when we have Sara who has earned the Black Canary persona already.

[icandigit]

Im on tumblr so I know how the Laurel hate can get,  But, most of the post here generally deal with the mechanics of the show. And how specifically Laurel's character and the acting choices don't flow organically with the story.

 

For most of the first season I was indifferent to Laurel. i don't know much about acting but usually I'm cool as long as I can buy what you are selling. In the beginning I believed she was a lawyer who had her boyfriend who screwed her over with her sister come back from the dead. Her stuff was cool with her dad and Tommy. I just took it all as part of the show. It's a comic book show on the CW. I wasn't expecting Shakespere. I didn't really care or need her to be all that compelling. I still don't.

 

The problem for me is that when she is with Oliver it feels shoehorned in and its distracting. It wouldn't matter if it were another charcter. But he's the goddamn arrow, those scenes really need to atleast not suck when charcters are in his orbit. They keep trying to create this connection between the characters that they didn't do a good job of establishing in flashback or in the present. They barely come off as aquaintences chemistrywise. And storywise they don't add simple stuff in the scenes that shows they have a connection or history together. I know nothing about writing but I know the little moments Oliver had with Thea and Tommy about candy canes and football playing models go along way to paint relationships. And they don't really do much of that with Oliver and Laurel.

 

I think they would do much better to work with what they have. Play up the fact that Laurel doesn't blend well or know Oliver as well as she did in the past. Play up the fact that they don't know each other. Stop trying to paint Laurel as a good girl when she's kind  of a bitch. And I'm ok with that.  Don't try to pretend she was a good sister to Sara, let the disconnect between her and Sarah be the storyline. That they never got along, never liked each other and probably don't now. I believe they could make it work if they would go with what they have instead of trying to create something that's not there.

 

I think I know the moment I went from indifference to not liking her character. When she was so ready to kill things with Tommy just because Oliver who she barely talked to, might still be in love with her. The second was how she treated Sarah in their flashback.I was rooting for Sarah to board that boat.

Edited May 9, 2014 by icandigit

[quarks]

I like Sansa quite a lot, as it happens. Which is why she's almost certainly going to die a horrible, painful, death, but this isn't that thread :)

 

But Scandal aside - and that is a huge exception - for the most part, the woman lead is supposed to be someone we can like and cheer for. In the case of Olivia Pope, "likeability" was exchanged for "competence and force," fairly deliberately - Shonda Rhimes is on record about this, saying that she was interested in creating a lead that wasn't likeable - as a commentary about sexism on television/politics, which, like or hate the show, Scandal has certainly explored. And Game of Thrones and Scandal don't expect us to like their characters. (Fortunately, because that ship has sailed.)

 

Arrow, however, does seem to want us to like its leads.  They already have a huge problem with Oliver - last season he was a mass murderer with anger management issues; this season although he's definitely improved he can still be one hell of a jerk. The usual response to this - unless you are Shonda Rhimes, who is trying to explore other issues - is to make your other lead likeable. 

 

Arrow has lurched back and forth on this. Laurel has had some likeable moments, but she's also frequently been written to be very judgemental and condescending, and the writers have often failed to write small fixes that would make her more vulnerable and more likeable. Does she have to be bubbly and funny? Not at all - it's a drama show.  Abbie over on Sleepy Hollow isn't - very snarky, sure, but not quirky or bubbly, and she's one of the most popular leads I've seen in years. But I do think Laurel should be likeable, and so far, that hasn't been happening consistently.

 

It does help that Abbie has been written fairly consistently as a determined, skeptical, hard hitting cop with snarky lines. This, alas, has not happened with Laurel, who is rarely given the opportunity to joke or smile, and who could best be called "inconsistent." On another site someone made the excellent observation that with Laurel, we are almost always discussing "this episode," and not Laurel over all, in contrast to other characters.  And it doesn't help that for whatever reason this show rarely gives Laurel funny lines. I really don't know why - Cassidy's comic timing has been great whenever the show lets her be funny, and I really wish the show would write more funny lines for her. 

 

But I think the major problem is that, inevitably, Laurel is going to be compared to other characters on this show - and not just Felicity, her rival love interest, either.  That's particularly true when it comes to "going through a lot." There's no question that Laurel is going through a lot.  However, she's on a show where nearly every character, except arguably Felicity and Amanda Waller, has been through the same or far, far, worse. (And we still haven't heard all of Felicity's backstory and we have no info on Amanda Waller's backstory at all.) Yes, Laurel lost a sister - but Laurel got her sister back. Slade isn't getting Shado back; Diggle isn't getting his brother back; Thea and Oliver aren't getting their parents back; Malcolm isn't getting his wife back; Barry isn't getting his mother back; Moira wasn't getting her husband back.  Yes, Laurel lost a close friend - but Oliver lost the same friend; Roy told us that he lost eleven friends; Sin is living on the streets and found her friend murdered; Diggle and Lyla lost friends in Afghanistan; Isabel claims she lost the love of her life (whatever); Helena lost the man she was going to marry.  Yes, Laurel was kidnapped (a lot) but so were Walter, Thea, Oliver, Sara, Roy, Felicity (briefly), and apparently everyone on the island at one point or another (I've kinda lost track there, to be honest).  Laurel didn't grow up wealthy, but neither did Blood, Roy, Sara, Sin and apparently Kate Spencer and Felicity. I could go on.

 

So when Laurel tries to tell me in the show that she's gone through much worse than anyone else and that no one can understand what she's going through - ok, no question that she's been through hell, but my immediate response is, are you paying attention to anyone else on the show?  You just, a few months ago, prosecuted a murder case with over 500 victims. That's trauma. You are saying this to your father, whose work partner was just murdered. I'm not saying that this isn't a realistic response for an addict - it fits right in with the behavior of other addicts I know who consistently make everything about them and their suffering and how life hates them and nobody else blah blah.  But when the person who just tried a mass murder case and (seemingly) allowed the murderer to get off scot free and go back to throwing parties tells me that her life is worse than anyone's else - ouch.

 

Then we have the problem of comparing Laurel to Thea. In some ways, they are very comparable: their lives both got slammed by the shipwreck. And in some ways, Laurel's response was admirable, and indeed much better than Thea's "I'm going to party and act out a lot and be thoroughly irresponsible!": she headed on to law school and worked at a legal clinic to help people. That's all great. 

 

Minus about several thousand points for deciding to sleep with Oliver's best friend, in something that wasn't described as two friends finding comfort in each other, either. Minus more points since Tommy genuinely cared about Laurel, and not so much vice versa for years.

 

 

Then we have this season. Thea, who has not been responsible for any of her trauma except the car wreck last season, has managed to get her life together and take some control of her life until people started kidnapping her again, at which point Thea made the sensible decision to leave town and try to get her life back together again. 

 

Versus Laurel, who is, by her own admission, at least partly to blame for some of her own suffering. (I think the lesson the show would like us to learn from this is: when in doubt, use Microsoft's Cloud Drives so that in the event of an earthquake machine your boyfriend won't die saving you.) Now things get a little worse, because although Thea's drug addiction last year hurt Thea and her family, it only hurt Thea and her family. Laurel's drug and alcohol use this season, however, is directly responsible for allowing Blood to get away with murder and with working with Slade. Which means that yes, she is indirectly responsible for what is happening to the city right now. Blood took responsibility for his role in that, and died for it. Oliver took responsibility for his role in that. In other scenes, Sara is once again taking responsibility for the people she killed, and even Malcolm whose grip on reality doesn't seem to be all that strong was sorta taking responsibility for his actions - ok, that one is a stretch. I don't know what Amanda Waller is doing but she seems to be willing to own the decision to kill about 600,000 people.

 

Laurel?  Well, yes, she admitted to her father that when she last tried to investigate Blood, she was an addict which is why she wasn't believed - but that's the only responsibility she's taken for this. And unfortunately, although she did eventually admit that she was partly to blame for Tommy's death, this isn't the first time that it's happened.

 

So, to sum up, you have a character who is often written inconsistently, who tries to claim that her problems are worse than everyone else's problems when we can see on the show that they aren't, and who often fails to take ownership of her own decisions and mistakes, who jumps between cold hearted fury and sudden forgiveness, who is often judgemental and condescending, and well - the result is that I do have moments of liking Laurel, as I did in this past episode, but like Laurel herself, those moments aren't consistent.

Edited May 10, 2014 by quarks

[BkWurm1]

At first Laurel blamed the Hood for Tommy's death. Eventually she blamed herself but the show did a,terrible job connecting her Tommy issues to her turn toward drugs. I wasn't even sure she had a addiction problem until after we found out she stole her dad's pills. She wasn't even on the show for a couple weeks and I thought they had dropped the storyline.

[Sakura12]

Who said anything about a lead character having to be bubbly and funny? Their personality could be dark and depressing, bubbly and funny or just being general badass. That doesn't matter, what matters is their importance to the show as whole. They shouldn't be missing multiple episodes and not be missed. Felicity is not the lead female, but it feels like she is or should be. Sara was billed as guest character all season. Laurel is billed as the lead female. Her name is right after Stephen's.

 

But as others and I have said, we can delete Laurel's scenes and it would not have done anything to the narrative. Which should never be the case of one of your leads. 

[pootlus]

I don't know why but I really dislike the term "leading lady" lol. But, to me, a leading lady should be vital to the show. The character who is considered the lead should feel so important that you couldn't even imagine the show without them. That's why I feel Laurel is no leading lady. Personally, I feel her role could be eliminated and the show would go on just fine. Remember all the episodes this season that didn't even show her? The lack of Laurel during that time didn't deter the show in any way. I know she's important to the other characters but a "leading lady" should be important to the show as a whole, in her own right. I feel like Laurel doesn't add much and her presence isn't necessary to the show.

 

This to me is the number one problem with the character, even leaving aside the anti-chemistry with her supposed true love and the lack of skill of the actress portraying her.

 

You could remove Laurel from the show and it would make very little difference, in fact the only substantive difference I can see is that Tommy would still be alive.

 

That's really not a very good role for a leading lady, and just leads me to more head scratching and "What in hell were they thinking?".