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Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

Lisin

By Lisin
in Characters of Arrow

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slayer2

slayer2

(edited)

I think EBR is more tolerable to watch than KC but I think that may be due to Felicity being a more comedic character. When both have to portray dramatic moments...they both fall short of the mark imo (see the reveal to Laurel by Slade, and then Felicity's speech to Oliver/moment before the speech in...21 or 22).

Both are blown out of the water by the Queen women I think.

Which is neither here nor there I suppose.

I agree with this. I think it will be telling watching the outcome as Laurel's screentime diminishes and Felicity's grows. Laurel's character was a lead and as such she had a lot of room for flaws. She has family, a backstory, love interests, her own apartment set, co-workers that weren't Team Arrow, people to talk to about things that don't always have to pertain to Oliver.

I reckon it's easier to dislike a character who has all of that going because you see them a lot more, they're on camera a lot more which means a lot more time to say and do things that people don't like or necessarily agree with.

Felicity in comparison never exists outside Oliver's orbit. The character was created for him and for the show as a means of lightening it up and igniting chemistry where (to some) it seemed to fall short.

It will be a far more accurate comparison of Laurel vs Felicity (if we must trot out that tired trope) once Felicity has had more screen time and a chance to be an actually fully formed human with flaws and a history of making good and bad choices as opposed to Oliver's female appendage and Girl Thursday.

Edited by slayer2
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Carrie Ann
Carrie Ann

But seriously, has anyone considered--while Sara is running around the city alone, killing people, missing her soul; while Thea lies in a hospital bed after nearly being killed herself--has ANYONE sto

Morrigan2575
Morrigan2575

Based on what the show is telling us this is very true.  Even her lying to Quentin last year, it was superficially wrapped up in we can't tell Lance because of his heart problem.  However, the underly

Ceylon5
Ceylon5

Okay, I can speak as someone who, until a month ago, had no idea that 'Arrow' was based on comic book characters.  I'd never heard of Green Arrow or Black Canary and just thought this was a TV show.  

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(edited)

Well if you think perhaps the audience's esteem of Felicity may go down after we see more of her, that's fair enough. But Laurel has had 46 episodes of absolutely everything thrown at us and nothing stuck. One of my complaints regarding Dinah Laurel Lance is that her plot seemed too separate from the main plot with Oliver. She was polarised and uninteresting (to me) because it seemed like her plot was taking away from what I wanted to see.

 

They gave Laurel a lot to work with: warm rapport with her father, sweet relationship with Thea, anger, resentment, jealousy. Whilst I thoroughly enjoyed Laurel's exploding glass (I'm serious I actually did) I am not entirely convinced giving Felicity more to work with will act against her. Because regardless of what they give Felicity, we know her now just like we know Laurel now.  Right now, Felicity is sweet and kind but strong and loyal. Traits that people enjoy. One of the reasons BC being given to Laurel will go over like a tornado through a small town is because many simply cannot envision her as the BC, whilst having a perfectly good BC in existence. The motivation is not there, but the disillusionment with her character is because right now, I see traits like 'haughty' and 'selfish' thrown around alot.

 

So on one hand it seems like back story will help us flesh out Felicity, but on the other giving Laurel any more will prove to irritate many audience members. If I have to eat my words, so be it. But I personally don't think fleshing out Felicity's character to have her throwing exploding glasses will be a bad thing.

Edited by ArrowLimbo
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KirkB

KirkB

The main reason Laurel doesn't distract me as much as some people, and why her continued (or even expanded) presence on the show by itself isn't enough to make me stop watching, is that at the end of the day the show is not called Laurel. It's Arrow. It's about Oliver Queen and his quest to do...whatever the hell it is he plans to do this year. Diggle and Felicity and Sara and Quentin and Thea are all great characters, I like Roy and more Malcolm is never a bad thing, but none of them are the stars and it's really all about Oliver. If Diggle left, if Sara or Quentin died, I would be disappointed but I would keep watching as long as the rest of the show was still entertaining. If Laurel were in the Arrow Cave every week, or worse if/when she turned into that which shall not be named, I would find those scenes far less interesting but we'd still have more focus on Amell and Oliver. Let them do whatever they want with Laurel. I simply can't be bothered to care.

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willpwr

willpwr

I'm not a shipper so to me it's not Laurel vs Felicity but since they get compared so much, it's a bit telling imho that EBR was able to make Felicity her own so much that when she does something unexpected a lot of viewers say it's out of character yet KC has had so much more to work with and it's difficult to tell what isn't in character because they try to make her so many things and it's like puzzle pieces that just don't fit. So far the only qualities I've found consistent are that she's not above blackmailing, she's condescending and self-absorbed even when they're trying to show her as helpful and heroic. 

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statsgirl

statsgirl

(edited)

I don't care enough about Oliver to watch the show for him.  It may be his name in the title, but after the pilot I skipped episode 2 and I wasn't back on board until I knew that Felicity was and that she and Diggle were a fixture in the Arrow cave.  If Laurel starts taking up large blocks of time, the way the Lance Family Drama did in season 2, and there isn't enough time for the characters I do care about, I'm out.  If ever there was a show about a single character, it was House and I dropped that when they started spending too much time on characters I didn't like and dropped the ones I did.

Personally, I think the issue with Katie Cassidy is that she doesn't exude warmth, at least not to me. I've seen interviews where she says that her acting method is very similar to Paul Blackthorne's and how they love discussing the Lance family backstory, yet she's never read the comics. She herself, appears very disconnected to what she says in regards to her role. I see the other actors and most of the time, I see them as their characters, when Laurel Lance appears, I see Katie Cassidy trying to act and IMHO, failing. Horribly.. I think the writers don't know what to do with her because she herself doesn't seem to understand her character. I've seen her interviews and don't see any difference between how she behaves, talks, etc in interviews than how she is on the show. She can work out as much as she wants but that does not make her acting "emmy worthy" as she delusionally said before.

I think it was Marc Guggenheim who called the scene in Heir to the Demon 'emmy-worthy' but I think he's delusional too.

 

I agree that whenever a female character gets a lot of screentime, the hating starts and if they spent too much time on Felicity, it would happen for her too. But I think the Laurel problem is separate from that.   A pretty good comparison of Laurel and Felicity could be drawn from their "keep fighting, Oliver" speeches at the end of s2.  Laurel dismissed Diggle and Felicity and then proceeded to tell Oliver that she knew him as well as she knew her own name (a line that has spawned a thousand parodies). hugged him while he looked uncomfortable and finally spewed out the information he needed.  The writing was pretty bad but KC acting'lady of the manor' toward Diggle and Felicity didn't helpn nor did the drama she put into talking to Oliver later.   EBR wasn't perfect in her speech to Oliver in the Clock Tower but it got her runner-up for Performer of the Week at TVLine, and that's not small potatoes. Both speeches roughly the same length, both full of anguish and hope. 

 

When Felicity was just there for comic relief, she did have an easier time of it than KC did playing Laurel but Felicity is not there for the lightness any more and I think that's because Laurel didn't succeed at doing what the EPs wanted from her.

Edited by statsgirl
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When Felicity was just there for comic relief, she did have an easier time of it than KC did playing Laurel but Felicity is not there for the lightness any more and I think that's because Laurel didn't succeed at doing what the EPs wanted from her.

 

That is an excellent point. You'd think these speeches would be dedicated to the most important people in the lead's life. Laurel's speech had me rolling my eyes too much to pay attention the first time because the words were utterly ridiculous. Felicity used her loud voice for that one line "you are not done fighting" and I'm flailing like a fangirl. So I may be somewhat biased here.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

I actually cheered for Felicity speech to Oliver, over Laurel's. Maybe if she didn't say she knew Oliver better than she knew her own name and wasn't dismissive towards Felicity and Diggle (did they really need to leave the room for her to say that?). It would've been better, but she did and my first thought was "are you sure you know your own name?"

 

I still stand by the fact that it's the actors job to bring the characters to life and make me care about them. Chloe on Smallivlle was crapped on all the time and no matter what she did I always rooted for her. Sara was thrown under a bus in the finale and I was angry about that because I cared about Sara and what was happening to her. EBR made me care about Felicity and want to see more of her. Alison Mack, Caity Lotz and EBR made me care about their characters and ignore or get mad when the writers do something stupid with them.  They all managed to do that in the first few episodes they appeared in. 

 

It shouldn't take 46+ episodes (since I still don't care about Laurel) to bring a character to life. 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)

The MC was like "I have read the comics" and it made me laugh. I don't think it came off that badly in the moment, but I've heard it before so I cringed before it even happened.

The MC was Geoff Johns Chief Creative Officer of DC Comics, EP of The Flash, and one of the big Comic Book Writers out there, 15 years worth including Flash, Justice League, Aquaman and Green Lantern.

I did not get the impression he was amused.

Edited by Morrigan2575
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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

He didn't sound amused at all. Then he immediately went to CL to talk about how much of a badass her Black Canary is and that he liked when she wears the BC outfit.

 

Cassidy doesn't seem to really understand her character or care about digging into the depth of Laurel and finding out who she is. Her read the comics answer is really sad to me. Especially hearing the rest of the actors give in depth details of who they think their character is and why they do things they do. KC can get as pumped as she wants, but the not understanding the creation of the character the main reason I can't ever see her as the BC. 

Edited by Sakura12
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He moved on super quickly to CL. I thought that KC would get a little more time because she's Laurel and has the jacket now. Meanwhile, he let EBR babble endlessly about all her men which was hysterical, and I admit I watched that part a few times.

Haha that was some babble as well. Felicity is rubbing off on EBR in a serious way.

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strikera0

strikera0

(edited)

Yeah, that "have you read the comics?" bit was a definite foot-in-the-mouth moment. A better way to handle the Ted Grant question without giving anything away would have been to ask GJ "what do you think (is he coming on for)?" with a bright and lovely smile on her face. Then he could have hinted at some of Ted Grant's comic book history as it pertains to her character (he trained the second BC Dinah Laurel Lance in the comics) and asked her if we might see the same thing play out on Arrow. Then she could have said "you have to tune in to find out" and winked at him.

 

I think in general, KC could use some media training. To me, it almost seems as if she's trying too hard to be entertaining and witty at these functions and she just falls flat on her face with that. It's better to simply be yourself even if you're a bit of a bore.

Edited by strikera0
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Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

Her 'read the comics' thing - and GJ's reaction - has gone viral

Has it really? :) do you have any links?

ETA: I just realized that might not have come across like I meant it. :( I believe you, I wasn't asking for proof. I'm just not hooked into any of the social networking sites, so I was just wondering where to look.

Edited by Starfish35
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wonderwall

wonderwall

Not a lot of people have been talking about the introduction of

Ted Grant

in terms of how it would affect Laurel... IDK if that's a good thing or a bad thing? I'm actually trying to keep an open mind when it comes to her. While I'm not optimistic about her being written well, I'm going to try not to be too critical when it comes to Laurel. 

 

I think that it'll be interesting to see her growth this season. The writers are notorious for bringing up the sordid past (what with Oliver sleeping with Isabel, Thea having a crush on Tommy, and supposedly having two terrorist attacks in two years etc.), but I wonder if they will somehow try to forget/retcon Laurel in order to make her into a stronger and likable character? From what I've heard about Laurel wondering whether she's her sister or someone else, I'm not too hopeful. 

 

But I'm glad that she'll finally get in on the action (even if it's in sort of a round about way). Right now it's important for the writers to ease her into the arrowverse instead of just plopping her in there trying to make it as natural as possible. Hopefully we see a more competent lawyer in Laurel and a less self-centered, self-important, egotistical one. Now I don't expect her to be as good as Alicia Florrick from The Good Wife, but I do expect her to be at least stable and professional. 

 

Other than that, as much as I've been whinging about KC working out, it's been nice to see that she's been dedicated at the gym. I just hope she puts that much work in all aspects of Laurel and makes her likable this season. I guess only time will tell if I come to like her or not. 

Luckylyn

Luckylyn

I kinda wish they modeled Laurel on Cordelia Chase (Angel. BTVS) because I think KC would work better as a good hearted bitingly snarky woman.  I really want to see a focus on Laurel caring about others and wanting to help through being a lawyer and eventually with Team Arrow.   I think her story should be of a woman who tries to help others through legitimate means but is blocked by corruption which makes going the vigilante root tempting for her.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

Listening to the Women Who Kick Ass panel and the Badass Women Nerd HQ panel, where those actress all talked about having to believe in the character, wanting to understand them and really embody them, makes me really see why KC is not a good fit for this part. She doesn't seem to understand anything about Laurel or really want too. It's great that she's getting shape everyone should do that, but her public appearances answers to questions about Laurel as a person is non-existent. That's what she she should be working on instead of talking about how many push ups she can do. CL is asked about her stunt work, she doesn't go around bragging about it or showing off her muscles. We know she's fit, it's the rest of what she brings to Sara that got her fans. The wounded bird as Geoff Johns put it. CL even said she wanted to show Sara's strength but also let her show emotions and weaknesses, to show that Sara was constantly struggling with the horrible things she's done and were done to her. I think she did manage to do that and that's why I love Sara. 

 

I understand not being able to answer the spoiler questions, but even those should be answered with a wait and see or watch and find out (not read the comics) then there are plenty of questions that have nothing to do with spoilers, like when she's asked about Laurel's relationship with Sara. Saying she has sisters is like, okay, but the question wasn't whether or not you had siblings. It was about your character's relationship with her sister. She has no answer for that and supposedly she came up with a back story so why not mention a little about what she discussed with CL?

 

Even Dylan Neal who plays Ivo had more to say about his character's relationship with Sara.

 

Always keep in mind that Ivo is at his heart a manipulator and he'll do whatever it takes to get his way. And, so, in that phone call is a great example of he's trying to pull on Sara's heartstrings. They had a rapport and they had an understanding that the research was for a higher purpose in that presence and her involvement in this research really keeps Ivo grounded and keeps the darkness away.

 

There probably is a certain truth to what he's saying, but of course he's saying all this to ultimately manipulate Sara and to bring her back. But, I do think that he does have a bit of a special bond with Sara in his own mind. He deeply did care about her. He did sort of rescue her from research that he could have done on her and then treated her like an aide, sort of like a partner. I think even Ivo is a bit conflicted about what Sara means in his life. At the end of the day, he's a manipulator and he'll do whatever it takes to get his way.

 

She could even say something like, I think the sister's have always had a rocky relationship with Laurel being an overachiever and Sara being a troublemaker, so they probably always clashed and had trouble getting along, but at the end of the day no matter what happens, Sara's, family and after having thought she lost her forever, Laurel would want to find a way to keep her as part of her life. 

 

We as fans can think of that in regards to her character. If KC was really trying to embody Laurel she should be thinking of those types things to say at cons or interviews. Show me that she is thinking beyond what the script (and the comics) say. Show me that she is bringing Laurel to life. The fact that I haven't seen that in 46 episodes and still don't see that she's working on the actual character she's playing is why I will probably never like her character. She's not Laurel, she's Katie Cassidy. 

Edited by Sakura12
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writersblock51

writersblock51

Ugh, my whole post just disappeared...

 

Just before summer hit, I finally convinced a friend of mine to give the show a try.  So she watched all of S1 and even the first 3 episodes of S2.   I asked her about the show, and we talked about many aspects of it.   She has never read the comics or is interested in doing so.  I sent her a few YouTube clips of SA/Oliver working out, with some actions scenes and she was intrigued enough to watch.  I encouraged her to get through the first 5 episodes before giving up.  She liked it enough to stick with it, obviously.

For this particular thread, here's what our conversation about Laurel turned out to be:

 

- her relationship with Oliver

"I liked her with Tommy a lot more.  Oliver seems unable to be honest with her, about their past or what he's up to now.  She and Oliver seem better as lifelong friends, that's it.  They don't seem to be 'in love' with each other although it's clear they care about each other, deeply.  But now she's hunting him, and he still won't tell her the truth.  Plus, he slept with her sister.  That's a big no-no."

 

- her job as a lawyer

"I didn't see her working much to be impressed but that's OK, the show is about Oliver Queen.  If her job deals with him, then I can see why it would be on the show.  He seemed to help her a lot.  Why didn't her company have digital backups?  Why did she go back to save some files?  That made no sense.  And Tommy died. That was very sad & shocking."

 

- as the show's Leading Lady

"I actually think Oliver's mother is the leading lady, but I guess it's not that kind of show.  I suppose Laurel is the leading lady.  But I like Felicity - I can see where she'd become a bigger part of the show.  At least she knows all about Oliver and he trusts her."

 

- as a possible kick ass hero

"Is that what's supposed to be happening to her?  I can't see that at all.  I know she can shoot a gun but that's not the same thing.  Maybe she's secretly training but it hasn't been shown yet?"

 

- as a damsel in distress

"She needs to move.  And she should ask her father to teach her more self defense or something, or she could classes."

 

It was interesting, to say the least.

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scarynikki12

scarynikki12

What's great about Comic Con is that I can have all sorts of conversations with fellow Arrow fans that I can't in real life.  The one thing that everyone agreed on was a general dislike of Laurel and how the character was written and portrayed.  But, being Comic Con, a lot of these same people wouldn't entertain the idea of Sara being the Black Canary long term on the grounds that Laurel had the name.  I pointed out that Laurel doesn't even go by Dinah (and Dinah Laurel Lance in the comics still goes by Dinah) and that the show can easily make Sara's middle name Dinah if that's all they require but I got a fair amount of blank stares, as if such a notion never occurred to them.  I have a girlfriend from high school who works at one of the booths in the Exhibit Hall and her boss and I ended up in a serious conversation about Arrow and Laurel.  Like so many on these forums, he said that he'd gladly dispense with comics canon and replace Laurel with Sara since it's been almost fifty episodes and he still doesn't understand what she (Laurel) contributes to the story.  He said that Laurel being the designated Damsel in Distress was the only consistent thing about her characterization and he just couldn't imagine a believable way for her to end up as the Black Canary with or without Sara.  I couldn't agree more.

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TanyaKay

TanyaKay

 

- as the show's Leading Lady

"I actually think Oliver's mother is the leading lady, but I guess it's not that kind of show.  I suppose Laurel is the leading lady.  But I like Felicity - I can see where she'd become a bigger part of the show.  At least she knows all about Oliver and he trusts her."

 

Now that your friend has pointed it out, Oliver's mother was a very important character in the first season and could very well be the leading lady. 

I mean Moira was close to the leading man, involved in the season long mystery of Undertaking, looked beautiful, tragic, strong and a little crafty when the occasion called for it. Had a romantic arc of her own (Walter left her, then came back and they had a teary eyed reunion and then Walter left her again) had a bit on the side (Malcolm Merlyn whom she tried to murder rather unsuccessfully) and also a dead former husband.

Laurel, on the other hand, had nothing to do with the first two plots of the show, the hero's journey (She was not in the know about Oliver's secret) and the undertaking (her only contribution to the undertaking was saving old archives so that Tommy could be fridged for Oliver's manpain). Her only independent story line spanned three episodes when her mother came to visit her claiming Sara was alive. She played either the rather useless love interest or a damsel in distress masquerading as a lawyer for the rest of the time.

Guest

Guest

Not a lot of people have been talking about the introduction of

Ted Grant

in terms of how it would affect Laurel... IDK if that's a good thing or a bad thing? I'm actually trying to keep an open mind when it comes to her. While I'm not optimistic about her being written well, I'm going to try not to be too critical when it comes to Laurel. 

 

I think that it'll be interesting to see her growth this season. The writers are notorious for bringing up the sordid past (what with Oliver sleeping with Isabel, Thea having a crush on Tommy, and supposedly having two terrorist attacks in two years etc.), but I wonder if they will somehow try to forget/retcon Laurel in order to make her into a stronger and likable character? From what I've heard about Laurel wondering whether she's her sister or someone else, I'm not too hopeful. 

 

But I'm glad that she'll finally get in on the action (even if it's in sort of a round about way). Right now it's important for the writers to ease her into the arrowverse instead of just plopping her in there trying to make it as natural as possible. Hopefully we see a more competent lawyer in Laurel and a less self-centered, self-important, egotistical one. Now I don't expect her to be as good as Alicia Florrick from The Good Wife, but I do expect her to be at least stable and professional. 

 

Other than that, as much as I've been whinging about KC working out, it's been nice to see that she's been dedicated at the gym. I just hope she puts that much work in all aspects of Laurel and makes her likable this season. I guess only time will tell if I come to like her or not. 

 

I'm not exactly hopeful about it but I want to be. I do think letting go of L/O as a romantic pairing will make her more likeable because the reasoning behind that relationship made no sense after what Oliver did to her. It would be nice if we could see Laurel realize that and finally move on from relationships that were holding her back. I want to see that strength and growth if we have to see her become BC. Maybe the introduction of

Ted Grant

will bring out a lighter and more relatable side to her?

Guest

Guest

(edited)

What's great about Comic Con is that I can have all sorts of conversations with fellow Arrow fans that I can't in real life.  The one thing that everyone agreed on was a general dislike of Laurel and how the character was written and portrayed.  But, being Comic Con, a lot of these same people wouldn't entertain the idea of Sara being the Black Canary long term on the grounds that Laurel had the name.  I pointed out that Laurel doesn't even go by Dinah (and Dinah Laurel Lance in the comics still goes by Dinah) and that the show can easily make Sara's middle name Dinah if that's all they require but I got a fair amount of blank stares, as if such a notion never occurred to them.  I have a girlfriend from high school who works at one of the booths in the Exhibit Hall and her boss and I ended up in a serious conversation about Arrow and Laurel.  Like so many on these forums, he said that he'd gladly dispense with comics canon and replace Laurel with Sara since it's been almost fifty episodes and he still doesn't understand what she (Laurel) contributes to the story.  He said that Laurel being the designated Damsel in Distress was the only consistent thing about her characterization and he just couldn't imagine a believable way for her to end up as the Black Canary with or without Sara.  I couldn't agree more.

 

Laurel is the weakest link and it's a shame because I think a lot of people wanted to root for her. Even with L/O backstory we were set up to be on her side but the way KC played it was kind of too abrasive? I know her character is supposed to be a do-gooder and an amazing lawyer but I never really saw those things either. There was definitely something lacking in her performance and I think this, coupled with her lack of chemistry with SA, contributed to her character kind of being pushed to the side. 

 

My main concern right now is how she's going to transition to BC because I don't understand how they'll make that work unless someone dies. But as someone pointed out to me earlier, they could have given her that motivation with Tommy's death but chose a path of addiction instead. I'm willing to see what they're going to do but I'm also aware that it has been 46 episodes and they have not sold me on her character at all. What's going to change here?

Edited by Guest
NumberCruncher

NumberCruncher

I don't know Laurel wasn't that involved with Oliver in season 1 when she was with Tommy and she still sucked imo.

Honestly, were it not for Tommy, I wouldn't have liked her at all--he made her more enjoyable to me, and unlike her toxic relationship with Oliver, I thought they brought out the better in each other. She made him want to stop his man-whoring and he gave her character a lightness and humor that was sorely needed. I rooted for the pairing because of that (plus I saw chemistry between KC and CO that she didn't didn't have with SA). It wasn't until the show killed off Tommy and she reverted back to her moody self that I started to tune her scenes out. I get that without Tommy dying Oliver would have lost his whole S2 motivation, but it really killed Laurel's character in the process.

  • Love 1
Guest

Guest

Is Laurel really the leading female? Does there have to be a leading female? Because she's not. Moira. *sniff*

 

Well, personally I don't think she is. But she was cast as the leading female. Her name comes up second in the credits which is supposed to be a big thing if the internet is to be believed. But do I watch the show and immediately think 'leading female?' NO WAY!

 

Ah, yes. Moira. I really liked her even if her methods were questionable at times. I hope we get to see her in flashbacks! 

KirkB

KirkB

(edited)

I think they intended Laurel to be the leading female, but it was a combination of KC's acting/lack of chemistry with Amell and Moira's charismatic presence, not to mention the surprise popularity of Felicity, that pushed her into the background. And no, it doesn't bode well when the character's absence seems to have more of a positive effect on episodes than her presence.

Edited by KirkB
  • Love 3
KirkB

KirkB

I don't think the "married thing" being the cause rings true, since IMO it's not just Amell Cassidy has no chemistry with. She and Lotz never seem too comfortable on screen, and she did okay with Donnell but I could tell he was having to act his ass off to fuel the scenes. The only one she seems to click with is Blackthorne, and I'm willing to bet that's more because of him.

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