Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[catrox14]

I thought it was mentioned that malcolm had used some type of drug similar to steroids or focusing/concentration drug to help thea thru her training, especially cuz it was so vigorous? If not, I stand corrected on that point. However, I still do believe that nobody is instant fighter training needs to be done even if not shown.

 

It was essentially said that Malcolm was training Thea 24/7 and given that Malcolm is the only person to beat Oliver twice, I'm perfectly fine with it taking 6 months or more for  Thea to become a badass.  If Laurel had been trained by Oliver, Malcolm, Sara or Nyssa in the same amount of time as Thea, I would accept it without seeing it. But boxing lessons is just not sufficient  for this viewer.

[KirkB]

I actually brought up this exact point here before the new season started. I asked why some people seemed to be okay with the idea of Thea being a bad ass after a few months of training and yet not Laurel. Of course, at the time, we didn't know Laurel wouldn't actually START training until well into the season and even then not from someone anywhere near as good as Malcolm. It would have been, IMO, easier to take Laurel in the field (not in the Canary costume, cause killing Sara so she could wear it is a whole other issue) if she has been intensely training for six months with Nyssa or Malcolm or someone like them. Along those lines, include me in the crowd who has no interest in watching Laurel train now. At this point, since she's obviously not going away, I would rather them literally have her insta-Canary through magic or something and just get it over with.

[Sakura12]

Isn't it pretty much over with? They just have people mentioning she has no training, are not really showing her train on screen and she's magically surviving her stint as a vigilante through luck. That seems to be the EP's comprise with Insta-Canary. Which is still a giant insult to the comic character. 

 

Thea trained probably non-stop with Malcolm for 5-6 months. Laurel was still a full time Lawyer during that time, then took 2 boxing lessons and quit. They are not even close to being on the same level. 

[wonderwall]

In the producers preview we saw Laurel going out in the night taking on the LoA, so I just can't believe that she could ever survive that much less believe that she'd decide to go out in a mask when there are ruthless assassins out there. 

 

This is why I sort of wanted her to stay indoors for a while. Because it makes no sense why she would be out in the field when the stakes are so high. It would be like asking a normal 12 year old do your advanced calculus homework

Edited March 31, 2015 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

I'm okay with Laurel being stupid in the field, I just don't like the fact it makes Oliver/Diggle and Roy stupid too.

[Menrva]

I'm still convinced that Laurel doesn't go out to fight crime because of Sara's death; no, she loves the high that comes with the adrenaline rush from hurting people. She is still an addict and I would love to see someone, anyone, call her out on this. Diggle certainly ought to recognize it; he had to have seen soldiers out in the field who loved the battle too much. Laurel is a dangerous liability and at least one person has died (the alderman, right?) because of her inexperience. How many more people will have to die for Laurel to see how selfish she is being?

[catrox14]

IMO Laurel is a narcissist. Even her own death won't make her realize. 

[wonderwall]

She is still an addict and I would love to see someone, anyone, call her out on this. 

 

Oliver called her out on this and Laurel didn't even deny it but what she did do instead of addressing her own issues, was turn it onto Oliver by falsely accusing him of pretty much being a vigilante because he wanted to hide the pain (which isn't the only reason he does what he does). 

So basically I don't think they're going to address it again. 

[Menrva]

Oliver called her out on this and Laurel didn't even deny it but what she did do instead of addressing her own issues, was turn it onto Oliver by falsely accusing him of pretty much being a vigilante because he wanted to hide the pain (which isn't the only reason he does what he does). 

So basically I don't think they're going to address it again. 

You're right; I forgot about that since I probably FF'd through it. My bad.

 

But that's classic Laurel: when someone confronts her, she deflects it by accusing them of being a hypocrite. She's such a brat.

[apinknightmare]

I'm still convinced that Laurel doesn't go out to fight crime because of Sara's death; no, she loves the high that comes with the adrenaline rush from hurting people. 

 

Didn't she basically admit that it was a high? She said so in Corto Maltese and she also said that it makes her pain go away in a way that nothing else does - like a drug. I can't remember which ep she said that in - it was towards the end of the Canary trilogy, IIRC. So in addition to trying to sell that she's doing it to honor Sara, they have also had her admit that it makes her feel good, too. 

[nksarmi]

They should have shown her getting closer to Sara in S2 and maybe starting to train w/ Sara for something (fun, justice, perhaps as means thru her darkness); so that when Sara was killed she could be not only honoring her sister but taking up the torch for her fallen teacher. It also would have avoided all the overdone Lance Drama that sucked up so much of season 2b.

I read a suggestion months ago that they should have killed off the mother, had the murderer go to trial and get off, and had Laurel start training with Sara to avenge her mother and then just have Sara alive and with the LoA.  I've also read that many people think they missed a great opportunity to have Laurel in CC when the particle accelerator accident happened because they could have made her a metahuman with the Canary Cry which would have made her more believable in the field and separated her more from her sister.  I want to like Laurel and I'm starting to again, but I do think they missed some opportunities to do this story better.

[Sakura12]

We have a Black Canary with no martial arts or weapons training, is addicted to the high of beating people up, acts like an entitled brat when anyone dares to question the training she doesn't have, doesn't work well a team and manipulated her father into thinking her dead sister was alive. 

 

That doesn't sound like any description of the comic Black Canary I've ever seen. 

[apinknightmare]

I like the idea of Dinah being the one who died, with Laurel training with Sara for revenge. I'm steadfastly against any metahumans on this show, apart from one-off villains if we have to go that route. 

[nksarmi]

Oliver called her out on this and Laurel didn't even deny it but what she did do instead of addressing her own issues, was turn it onto Oliver by falsely accusing him of pretty much being a vigilante because he wanted to hide the pain (which isn't the only reason he does what he does). 

So basically I don't think they're going to address it again. 

I think this is one of the lamest lines they have ever dropped on the show and I do NOT want to see them pick it up again.  Laurel superheroing because she is an addict would be worse than when they did the Willow is addicted to magic/addict story on Buffy (and I wasn't even a fan of that show - but boy did that story suck!).

 

I think they could have setup Laurel's drive better - I think the best way would be highlighting that fact that everyone she puts away keeps getting out! And really emphasizing more how she went from believing what her dad taught (you don't need justice outside the law) to believing that he was wrong and the Arrow was doing justice. They set this up a bit in season one but haven't hit the right notes for me since.

 

Besides, when Oliver - the playboy who even Thea points out had plenty of run-ins with drugs and booze - tells Laurel (who probably picked his unfaithful butt up and vouched for him when they were dating multiple times) that she is an adrenalin addict - it reeks of "take the log out of your own eye before you mess with mine."  Especially when Oliver has been spending the entire season using his vigilante persona as a reason to avoid feeling and being with the people he loves.  He is as messed up - if not more so - than Laurel and is not the right person to be pointing this stuff out to her.  And then he keeps trying to protect the man who killed her sister - so yea he kind of sucks this season when it comes to Laurel.

 

I actually like Laurel this season even though I want to see her train more.  But frankly, I want to see Roy train more too.  I miss when they used to show sparing sessions between characters.  I'd rather have 30 seconds of training montages every couple of episodes than all the drama we've had all season.  I kind of hope they show Nyssa and Laurel sparring at some point, but I would take her doing some cool fight move and telling Roy who taught it to her (I want her and Oliver to speak as little as possible right now lol).

[Menrva]

Didn't she basically admit that it was a high? She said so in Corto Maltese and she also said that it makes her pain go away in a way that nothing else does - like a drug. I can't remember which ep she said that in - it was towards the end of the Canary trilogy, IIRC. So in addition to trying to sell that she's doing it to honor Sara, they have also had her admit that it makes her feel good, too. 

Okay, I seem to have forgotten a lot of what happened this season. But can anyone really blame me?

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that there seem to be no consequences for Laurel. So people are calling her out on her BS, but then what? She throws it back in their faces. Her dad is mad at her. Big deal. He's mad at everyone these days. Nothing is going to stop her from feeding her high. Oh, she hurt her wrist? She's not going to let an injury prevent her from suiting up. What would happen if she was prevented from going out as BC? A serious, perhaps permanent injury (spinal injury, compound fractures, brain injury). Or will Laurel get outed as the BC? That would definitely end her law career and people would probably follow her around and make her vigilantism quite difficult. But that's not going to happen because…JUSTICE. (insert eye roll here)

[KenyaJ]

Besides, when Oliver - the playboy who even Thea points out had plenty of run-ins with drugs and booze - tells Laurel (who probably picked his unfaithful butt up and vouched for him when they were dating multiple times) that she is an adrenalin addict - it reeks of "take the log out of your own eye before you mess with mine."  Especially when Oliver has been spending the entire season using his vigilante persona as a reason to avoid feeling and being with the people he loves.  He is as messed up - if not more so - than Laurel and is not the right person to be pointing this stuff out to her.  And then he keeps trying to protect the man who killed her sister - so yea he kind of sucks this season when it comes to Laurel.

Except there's a big difference between partying and using alcohol/drugs recreationally and being an addict. And Oliver has many issues, but I don't think we've ever been shown or meant to believe that Oliver does what he does for the adrenaline rush.

Oliver is and ineffective messenger for Laurel because they're not friends in any true sense of the word. Nevertheless, he's not wrong in his assessment of why she's trying to be a vigilante (so far).

[statsgirl]

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that there seem to be no consequences for Laurel.

I think this has always been a problem in the writing for Laurel's character.  She's never faced consequences for what she does.  Being at CNRI when three people told her not to go and getting Tommy killed, driving while drunk, her reception of Sara when she came back from the dead, killing a cop in s2.  I'd even like Laurel to have a conversation with someone about her relationship with Oliver in the past when she just turned a blind eye to his infidelities.

[dtissagirl]

Continuing the talk in the spoiler thread about Laurel being publically known as "Black Canary".
 

Fair point. So for your sake, I hope they do address it. The way they drop and manipulate a lot of things can be really annoying. I'm sure we all have out little list of pet peeves. Gosh knows I have my list. I've also just decided to try not dwell too much on some things as MG/the show seem content in some of his mission statements/goals & unlikely to change. But then again I said TRY, so who knows what tomorrow will bring. That's what makes this forum so great we can bring all our rants & frustrations to light. We also can share all the great things about this show too.

 
I wish I could handwave it. I keep going back and forth in thinking this was done on purpose, or they just legit couldn't figure out a way to work Laurel's motivation into the narrative. Which is something they've admitted having trouble with Laurel before.
 
First there's the in-text confusion. The second Palmer said "Black Canary" to Oliver, I checked out of that episode -- how does he know that name?! Did I miss a scene wherein it became public knowledge that Laurel is calling herself Black Canary? And why is Laurel using a name her father threw at her as an insult?
 
And then there's the importance of the moniker. All other characters got some sort of explanation for their codenames. I mean. Laurel is appropriating an insult and turning it around to an empowering thing -- I figured that would be kind of important to her journey, wouldn't it? So why wasn't that on the show? I understand the "because comics" reasoning, but they've at least tried to write in-text reasons for Laurel's journey. The complete lack of an explanation for her using that name is forever confusing, though.

Edited April 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[lizonthefritz]

Did I miss a scene wherein it became public knowledge that Laurel is calling herself Black Canary? And why is Laurel using a name her father threw at her as an insult?

 

And then there's the importance of the moniker. All other characters got some sort of explanation for their codenames. I mean. Laurel is appropriating an insult and turning it around to an empowering thing -- I figured that would be kind of important to her journey, wouldn't it? So why wasn't that on the show? I understand the "because comics" reasoning, but they've at least tried to write in-text reasons for Laurel's journey. The complete lack of an explanation for her using that name is forever confusing, though.

 

My only fanwank is that Lance called her that in a press briefing (perhaps also as a veiled warning to Laurel to stop what she's doing?) and then Laurel, like you said, appropriated it in an act of defiance and as a means of empowering herself. The only problem with that is that the only reason for her to do so (that I can think of) is out of spite and anger against her father and she has absolutely no reason to be angry with him, SHE'S the one who betrayed him, not the other way around.

 

Not that that's stopped her from being pissy that he hasn't forgiven her yet. I mean, GOD, it's been like...what? Five minutes? Isn't he over it already? I would never hold a grudge that long! /Laurel thought process

 

*sigh*

[tv echo]

Didn't Ray Palmer call Laurel the Black Canary (to Felicity, iirc) before Quentin went on his rampage against the Arrow and associates (before he held any press briefings)?  Even if Ray had bugged the Arrowcave and Felicity's purse, no one in Team Arrow used the Black Canary name before - it was only said at that private meeting between Quentin and Laurel at Sara's gravesite.

[Oscirus]

The one thing that bugged me about Laurel this episode is that she didn't read Nyssa the riot act for nearly killing her father.  I get that their relationship isn't good but there is no way in hell that Laurel should be cool with anybody putting their hands on him.

[Menrva]

Just need to get this off my chest…

 

The smug, self-satisfied expression on KC's face when she tells Cisco she's the BC and his subsequent "ILY"…just ugh. Wanted to smack the both of them.

 

Would Laurel kill to keep being BC? I would not put it past her. I don't think Oliver has killed anyone to keep his secret (though I might be wrong about that) but it's clear that he will give up being the Arrow if it puts those he cares about in danger or if Starling City no longer needed him. But I can't see Laurel giving up being BC for anything. She needs it too much, and since there's always going to be crime somewhere, she has the perfect justification to keep on going.

 

Anyway, I'm probably just being grumpy since I'm stuck eating matzah for the next 7 days and I have a leak in my basement… ugh.

[dtissagirl]

Would Laurel kill to keep being BC? I would not put it past her. I don't think Oliver has killed anyone to keep his secret (though I might be wrong about that)

 

He did in the pilot, when he killed one of the kidnappers. The guy said he didn't have to do it and Oliver went "Yes, I do, nobody can know my secret", and snapped his neck. And then [well, actually, before that. Hee!] he killed Thea's drug dealer buddy in the flashbacks in 314 because the guy figured out who he was.

 

But your point still stands. That was the old Oliver.

[Menrva]

I knew I was forgetting some killings! Ok, my bad. Carry on.

[statsgirl]

I think the question is, why do they want to be the Arrow and the Black Canary respectively?  For Oliver, when he started, it was to do what his father asked and for him to be able to do that, no one could know that Oliver Queen could fight like that.  I don't think it would matter so much now, he's reached a point where he does it to help the city and it wouldn't matter so much if he were outed as the Arrow, he'd find another way to do it.

 

For Laurel, we've been told it's an addiction, it quells the burning inside her.  Killing may be a problem with respect her job, but it doesn't seem to be so much morally, whereas Oliver goes to extreme lengths not to kill.

 

An addiction is the hardest thing to get over, and almost impossible to handle when you're doing just a bit of what you're addicted to.. 

[nksarmi]

I think the question is, why do they want to be the Arrow and the Black Canary respectively?  For Oliver, when he started, it was to do what his father asked and for him to be able to do that, no one could know that Oliver Queen could fight like that.  I don't think it would matter so much now, he's reached a point where he does it to help the city and it wouldn't matter so much if he were outed as the Arrow, he'd find another way to do it.

 

For Laurel, we've been told it's an addiction, it quells the burning inside her.  Killing may be a problem with respect her job, but it doesn't seem to be so much morally, whereas Oliver goes to extreme lengths not to kill.

 

An addiction is the hardest thing to get over, and almost impossible to handle when you're doing just a bit of what you're addicted to.. 

I've said this before and I will say it again - the addiction thing was one line and I hope they drop it among all the other illogical, nonsensical stuff they have introduced this season.  I don't know want Laurel Lance being Black Canary because she is addicted to it.  Ugh. Gross. No.

 

I think they have given her other believable motivations - avenging her sister, fighting for justice she can't get as a lawyer, doing good, protecting the city, etc...  I strongly suspect they will give her the ultimate motivation if they kill Quentin this season (not a spoiler - just something I really believe is going to happen).  I think her mission will tie in very strongly to something to do with his death.  Her mission has to be separate from Oliver's - she is not Green Arrow's sidekick and she needs a story of her own.

[AyChihuahua]

The problem with her having her own journey/story as a hero and not Oliver's sidekick is that this show is Arrow.  I'm not being snarky.  If she just does her own thing every episode and occasionally teams up, it won't really work.  People generally don't care about Laurel, certainly not enough to watch a show within a show just about her.  So really, simply because of the setup of the show, she's sort of stuck being his sidekick or at least teammate, even though it goes against comic canon.

[dtissagirl]

The problem imo to killing Quentin for Laurel is that they've already killed Tommy and Sara to advance her storyline. Tommy for her downward spiral, Sara for her picking up the suit. I know this show only ever motivates masked heroes by killing their loved ones, but Laurel needs something else. Death as motivation for superheroing was her storyline this season. Repeating it would be not only boring, but would probably add fuel to the "Laurel Lance, always trying to save the world" death curse.

[nksarmi]

But come on - doesn't it FEEL like Quentin is going to die?  Especially after that last episode?  I was bummed when Tommy died, shocked when Moira died, pissed when Sara died, but with Quentin it just kind of feels almost overdue.  I know that's sad, but seriously I can't take any more rage and judgmental BS out of him.  In season one, it was annoying, but it made sense.  Now its just over the top and so illogical I can't take it.

[statsgirl]

The problem is that Quentin holds a very specific place, he is the police liaison in the show. Get rid of him and they have to come up with a new character to fulfill the same function.  Ordinarily that would be Laurel but now that she's fighting with Oliver, it doesn't make sense.

 

But really, I don't want Quentin to die to further Laurel's journey because as a character, he's worth six of hers.  She's one of a band of vigilantes (Oliver, Diggle, Felicity, Roy, Thea probably and whoever else they want to add next season), whereas he is the only law enforcement/city administrator the show has.

 

Unlike Tommy's death, which made Oliver into a hero, and Moira's death which made him realize he can't give himself up and he has others to fight with him, Quentin's death serves no purpose for Oliver, and enough people have died for Laurel already.

 

I've said this before and I will say it again - the addiction thing was one line and I hope they drop it among all the other illogical, nonsensical stuff they have introduced this season.  I don't know want Laurel Lance being Black Canary because she is addicted to it.  Ugh. Gross. No.

More than one line though. As soon as she said she wants to beat up people because it's the only thing that calms the fire in her, posters were saying "addiction".   That's a classic addiction line because someone who wasn't an addict would react in the opposite way.  When Oliver said it in Canaries (?), it felt like the show was acknowledging what the audience had already seen.

[Genki]

I've said this before and I will say it again - the addiction thing was one line and I hope they drop it among all the other illogical, nonsensical stuff they have introduced this season.  I don't know want Laurel Lance being Black Canary because she is addicted to it.  Ugh. Gross. No.

 

I think they have given her other believable motivations - avenging her sister, fighting for justice she can't get as a lawyer, doing good, protecting the city, etc...  I strongly suspect they will give her the ultimate motivation if they kill Quentin this season (not a spoiler - just something I really believe is going to happen).  I think her mission will tie in very strongly to something to do with his death.  Her mission has to be separate from Oliver's - she is not Green Arrow's sidekick and she needs a story of her own.

 

Regarding the alternative motivation for Laurel and I can see your point, unfortunately for me, as a viewer, these motivations are all instances of Tell rather than Show, whereas the addiction and replacing the addiction with vigilantism has been (for better or worse) established within the show. I would have appreciated if they had established for her the system was failing, more and her disillusionment with working inside the Law, frankly there should have used Kate Spencer Manhunter to do that in S2. I get where they were going with the Arrow and Canary are symbols to the city but, you need a competent Canary to sell it.

 

I have no investment in the Comic version of the BC but I don't think they should be killing off yet another character to motivate her storyline. I already think she didn't do enough to find Sara's killer (She wanted vengeance and but she didn't want proof before she went after any). 

[Morrigan2575]

More than one line though. As soon as she said she wants to beat up people because it's the only thing that calms the fire in her, posters were saying "addiction". That's a classic addiction line because someone who wasn't an addict would react in the opposite way. When Oliver said it in Canaries (?), it felt like the show was acknowledging what the audience had already seen.

Not just on the show, KC has axactually stated it in interviews, I think she said it at PaleyFest. Laurel is doing this because it feeds her addiction

Edited April 5, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[nksarmi]

Lalalalala I can't hear you.  Magic is not a drug.  Vigilantism is not a drug.  Lalalalalalala.

[statsgirl]

But needing the high of being a vigilante superhero is.  (A drug, I mean)

 

Not just on the show, KC has actually stated it in interviews, I think she said it at PaleyFest. Laurel is doing this because it feeds her addiction

That's interesting. I wonder if she was told that by the writers or if it came from Oliver's line in the script.

 

If it's true and that's how the EPs see her, it could make for an interesting storyline, better than the current one where she rises to BC with meteoric speed. I hope they don't drop it as they did the opportunity to became a vigilante after Tommy's death.  (I still think the best storyline for Laurel would have been to try to bring MM to justice, fail, and then take the law into her own hands.)

[nksarmi]

But needing the high of being a vigilante superhero is.  (A drug, I mean)

 

That's interesting. I wonder if she was told that by the writers or if it came from Oliver's line in the script.

 

If it's true and that's how the EPs see her, it could make for an interesting storyline, better than the current one where she rises to BC with meteoric speed. I hope they don't drop it as they did the opportunity to became a vigilante after Tommy's death.  (I still think the best storyline for Laurel would have been to try to bring MM to justice, fail, and then take the law into her own hands.)

That would have made season two so. much. better.  Don't get me wrong - I love Sara but I have thought they made a HUGE mistake bringing her in like they did.  I mean, to me, she was everything I wanted out of Black Canary.  Now I am trying - so very hard - to get behind Laurel's transition and while I am liking her this season so much better than last, I'm having to overlook a lot.

 

They could have brought Sara in with the same story, but without the costume.  Come to think of it, why is her costume so different than the rest of the League anyway?  She could have joined Oliver in his fight in a modified version of the LoA outfit - or maybe just come up with something else that wouldn't tie her to BC image-wise.  And honestly, I could have done without Laurel's decent in season two.  I know they think that decent was part of her superhero journey, but I didn't need it and I think it hurt them with the fans.  They took a character who wasn't a fan favorite and made her downright unlikable.  Who does that on purpose?

 

I mean sure Charmed made Phoebe unlikable, but they didn't mean to.  Once seems to be trashing Snow White, but they don't seem to know that's what they are doing.  This show purposefully made Laurel unlikable in season two (ranting against Arrow, being bitchy to her dad, drinking and drug abuse, self-pity, etc...none of those can be considered good no matter what).  I guess they thought they could redeem her since she wasn't that different than Thea in season one and they made Thea infinitely more likable later.  But the problem is that Thea was young and stupid and grew up.  Laurel was supposed to already BE a grown up.  It just didn't work. 

 

So here we are and I want to like the Black Canary/Laurel Lance.  I liked her well enough with Tommy and I liked her interactions with Ted/WildCat.  I like her with Arsenal and Nyssa and even Thea.  I think I would like to see her become friends with Felicity.  But I just don't want her part of Team Arrow - it doesn't work for me.  I hope they find the right way to use her in season four, because I think they are failing her character big time in the writing.

 

Also, after reading a quote or two by the actress, I think I have to choose to ignore everything she says or I will like Laurel even less.

[Starfish35]

Even if Ray had bugged the Arrowcave and Felicity's purse, no one in Team Arrow used the Black Canary name before - it was only said at that private meeting between Quentin and Laurel at Sara's gravesite.

That's exactly the problem. Once the writers tossed the name out there once via Quentin, it's like they assumed that was all the basis they needed to establish the Black Canary name as a known name like the Arrow. Even though it makes no logical sense in universe.

[Chaser]

I'm actually wondering if Quentin started calling her the Black Canary at the police station because he wanted people to know that this isn't the woman in black. Press got a hold of it and what not.

[Oscirus]

While I agree that Tommy's death and Sara's death benefitted Laurel's character development, I fail to see how the writers killed them both for her  when the two deaths served bigger purposes in the narrative.  Tommy's death, punished Malcolm for his recklessness and inspired Oliver to be a type of vigilante that didn't need to kill people. Sara's death, is the thing that this season is based around. It bought the LOA here, forced Oliver to make numerous sacrifices on his sister's behalf and caused Oliver to be revealed to everybody on the show that didn't know his identity. That being said, I doubt Quentin dies anytime soon. Having him die so close to a heart scare would just be silly.

 

I do agree that the Black Canary moniker fits Sara better then Laurel since Laurel's not a killer.  I'll just assume that Ray calls her that because she's a canary who's dressed in black.

[dtissagirl]

I wonder if there was a scene that was cut for time, that will be in the DVD extras, much like so many of Laurel's development moments in previous seasons.

It's just weird, though. The Hood was a bit of an insult, and then they made a thing out of Oliver not wanting to be called that anymore. Everyone else got a nice moment with their superhero names. Oliver naming Roy, and giving Barry the idea for Flash. Laurel naming Sara. Laurel got an insult too, but this isn't her temporary hero name. It's her endgame name. Forever awkward storytelling, Laurel Lance for the prize.

Edited April 6, 2015 by dancingnancy

[wonderwall]

To be honest, I don't care enough about Laurel to worry about or be angry about the fact that she's seemingly getting everything that fulfills her comic book 'destiny' in less than a year because it means that I won't have to suffer through her ridiculous 'transformation' in the upcoming seasons. Honestly, she's training with Nyssa so she'll probably become a pretty good fighter in the next 6 months (look at Roy), she's going to get the

canary cry from Cisco

, she already has the mask and suit, and people are already calling her BC... What other story of hers is left to tell? Literally nothing compelling. So the sooner they finish her arc, the sooner the show can get to stuff that's more interesting like Diggle's association with HIVE, Felicity's father (which I'm hoping is intertwined with the HIVE arc),  and more focus on Oliver's journey. 

 

So yeah, I'm bummed that I have to sit through this, but on the other hand, I'd rather rip the bandaid off because it seems like next season she will be more of a background character which I like. 

[statsgirl]

My worry is that Laurel won't be a background character next season, she'll be right there on Team Arrow in the field like she is in the comics.  David Ramsey talks about a HIVE storyline but Diggle usually gets 2 episodes a season and they can do the HIVE storyline in that. Meanwhile Laurel will be out fighting with Oliver all the time, blonde hair swinging.

 

While I agree that Tommy's death and Sara's death benefitted Laurel's character development, I fail to see how the writers killed them both for her  when the two deaths served bigger purposes in the narrative.  Tommy's death, punished Malcolm for his recklessness and inspired Oliver to be a type of vigilante that didn't need to kill people. Sara's death, is the thing that this season is based around. It bought the LOA here, forced Oliver to make numerous sacrifices on his sister's behalf and caused Oliver to be revealed to everybody on the show that didn't know his identity. 

I think Tommy's death was to push Oliver forward.  Malcolm wasn't punished because he didn't care that much about Tommy, John Barrowman even says that Malcolm cared more about Oliver than he did about Tommy, and he was quite willing to kill Oliver four times by my last count.

 

I think Tommy's death should have done more for Laurel's storyline, it should have been the thing to push her towards seeking justice first legally, and then on her own when the legal system failed.  They could have done it at the same time as Sara's return, and Sara could have inspired her to go vigilante. Instead, Tommy's death pushed her addiction arc which IMO was a failure for all concerned, from the show overall to Laurel herself.

 

The Death of Sara has been a mess all around, although they may pull it together in the last episodes.  It cleared the way for Laurel to become the Black Canary but it didn't push her towards it other than to give her an excuse to beat up people.  Everyone seemed to forget looking for Sara's killer except Felicity, which made no sense since it was supposed to be such a big thing. Occasionally it came up again when it was required to push forward the plot of another character, mostly Malcolm and Thea and Ra's, to some extent Nyssa and now Quentin but because the show treated it as more of a plot contrivance than an underlying motivation for the season, it was pretty much wasted. 

 

Since Ra's didn't seem to care about Sara other than to use it to bring Oliver into the LoA, all the other plots could have been tweaked differently, except Laurel putting on her sister's clothes and mission.

[TanyaKay]

To be honest, I don't care enough about Laurel to worry about or be angry about the fact that she's seemingly getting everything that fulfills her comic book 'destiny' in less than a year because it means that I won't have to suffer through her ridiculous 'transformation' in the upcoming seasons. Honestly, she's training with Nyssa so she'll probably become a pretty good fighter in the next 6 months (look at Roy), she's going to get the

canary cry from Cisco

, she already has the mask and suit, and people are already calling her BC... What other story of hers is left to tell? Literally nothing compelling. So the sooner they finish her arc, the sooner the show can get to stuff that's more interesting like Diggle's association with HIVE, Felicity's father (which I'm hoping is intertwined with the HIVE arc), and more focus on Oliver's journey.

So yeah, I'm bummed that I have to sit through this, but on the other hand, I'd rather rip the bandaid off because it seems like next season she will be more of a background character which I like.

I really really wanna believe it but I am afraid it will be the exact opposite. They have significantly increased Laurel's screen time this year despite extremely poor showing and fan response last year. I don't see that pattern changing in future.

[KirkB]

I can't stand Laurel but even I think they did the character a huge disservice over the seasons, first by minimizing her role and worse by bringing Sara back to play the role she was 'born' to play. Laurel should have been building toward the role the entire time, not picking up the ball and running with it at the last minute because all of the other players have been knocked out of the game. I accept they are doing Laurel differently from Dinah, the comics character, because this is an adaptation after all, and everyone from Oliver to Tommy to Ra's are getting the same treatment, for good or ill. But they've given themselves extra work by spending the first two seasons making Laurel a mostly unlikable character then turning around and trying to get me to like her. As she's gotten more screentime and started wearing the mask, not to mention what she did to Quentin, I've gone from not caring to hating her. What does that tell you?

[Ang]

Catching up on posts from the last week, I was struck by @NumberCruncher's post in the relationships thread about how Tommy's death should have been the one to motivate Laurel to become the Black Canary. I'm amazed at how easy, in retrospect, it would have been to create a reasonable Black Canary arc without cutting a single thing we've seen in the show, and in fact it would have made a lot of elements make more sense. Swap martial arts obsession for alcohol in season 2, and boom: Black Canary.

 

Tommy dies, Laurel spirals, whatever, but imagine if they'd had her throw herself into training instead of booze. There were a few indications that she'd had some self-defense training in season 1, so in season 2, she deals not with booze but with a physical adrenaline rush, obsessively spending all her free time in various martial arts training. They could have even kept the addiction theme if they wanted by creating parallels to a brief bout with alcoholism in flashbacks. It's enough that it interfere's with her job, she still turns on the Hood (and they introduce themes of "because she thinks she could have done better."), etc. Sara plays out the same way, except that this time when she sees Sara as a hero, the spark she gets in her eyes makes a little more sense. She could still get kidnapped by Slade, since a little Kung Fu isn't going to be enough to fight off Mirakuru soldiers. 

 

I also love the idea of seeing Laurel butt heads with the limitations of the legal system. Then when Sara dies, we see that come to a head. She's been training all along, but in times of stress she goes a little nuts with it and we're introduced to Ted Grant when she turns to him as a confidante. And then when she starts as a vigilante it makes a modicum of sense. 

 

I don't know, just the idea of it made the character so much more palatable to me, and it's such a simple, obvious change for the character. Imagine if Laurel's insufferable sense of self-entitlement and superiority were accompanied by some actual bad-assery?

[kismet]

They waited too long to start her physical journey to bc. I think they still could have done some alcohol overuse if they wanted but she should have starting training during s2 with SL perhaps as healthier way to channel her frustrations/emotions. Also if sara had started her training as a sisterly thing it would have bonded them more. Plus would have made sara look better that she wants her sister to have some ability to protect herself considering LL seemed to get kidnapped & was in danger very often.

Edited April 6, 2015 by kismet

[olicityfan25]

Not to be mean or anything but, their bodies must of had something to do with it. Look at Caity and then look at Katie. Caity is a trained martial artist who was doing some of her own stunts on the set. With Katie they need the stunt person more than the actress on set.

[Oscirus]

My only real problem with Laurel is that she forces herself into dangerous situations without any forethought and somehow, she usually gets rewarded. Hell, the beginning of the Black Canary storyline where she pretty much forced her way into the fight and Diggles the military man apparently just agreed to let her, pretty much shows  this and it also shows an annoying aspect of her personality. But I digress. I do think that if more people told Laurel don't do that and meant it, then she wouldn't be as hated as she normally is.

 

I like that Laurel's a complicated character with many strengths and weaknesses. I just wonder why the actress always chooses to go the mad route even when that's obviously not what the writers are going for.

 

Upon further thinking another thing occurred to me about last week's episode. Why didn't it occur to anybody that team Arrow would be better off if she was running interference at the DA's. I get that she's an ass kicker but... priorities.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Oscirus

[statsgirl]

I think it's the "only masks and costumes matter" mindset that the writers and EPs seems to have got themselves into.  Laurel is most effective, and best liked, when she's the kickass lawyer of The Calm or Suicidal Tendencies.  But it seems that the writers and Laurel herself like her most when she's in Black Canary fighting gear, even when she screws up in that role.  IMO what Team Arrow needs is a good lawyer, not a fighter who still needs training wheels.

 

I think the thing that has most hurt the show this season is writing to comic books, and this is an example of it.

[nksarmi]

Not to be mean or anything but, their bodies must of had something to do with it. Look at Caity and then look at Katie. Caity is a trained martial artist who was doing some of her own stunts on the set. With Katie they need the stunt person more than the actress on set.

But you can't factor this in when you consider that Caity did not play Sara in the pilot and that Katie was cast knowing all along that Dinah Laurel Lance was going to become Black Canary.  So, while yes the fans think Caity/Sara is a more believable BC bodywise - the Executive Producers knew they were going to have to give Laurel/Katie a convincing story at some point to turn her into BC. 

 

I almost wish we could retcon some things about Laurel - like toss some martial arts training or kickboxing into her teenage years.  Yes, they mentioned self-defense, but they could have done more.  Or they should have just had her butt in Central City when the particle reactor accident happened and let her get caught up in the accident and get the Canary Cry from it.  It doesn't have to be all *that* logical (this show has proven it doesn't care about logic this season anyway) - they just needed to give her something from the start that would make it believable that she could get into this fight.

[KirkB]

It obviously doesn't matter now, but I think the best thing for Katie and Laurel both would have been if they never invented Sara Lance in the first place. For one thing it would have avoided the repulsive sister swapping. It should have been Laurel on the Gambit, Laurel who was on Lian Yu, and Laurel who wound up with the LoA. 

Edited April 7, 2015 by KirkB