Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[catrox14]

 

You mean other than her friend and all the people we saw before? Laurel just stayed longer...so that part isn't as bad as some think imo..it was clear to me that all of the CNRI employees were trying to save the files or what not.

IIRC, Laurel was not at CNRI but went back in spite of the warnings. That's what makes it different.

[wingster55]

But she wasn't the only one there...how do we know that all the others went back afterwards too?

[Orion]

You mean other than her friend and all the people we saw before? Laurel just stayed longer...so that part isn't as bad as some think imo..it was clear to me that all of the CNRI employees were trying to save the files or what not.

 

Since the only reason CNRI was shown at all in the finale was because Laurel was there (hence if Laurel had listened and not gone there none of the employees {actors} would not have been there.) it was my attempt at humor and why I put it in parentheses and not in the actual sentence.  I'll try to be more over the top sarcastic when I use humor in the future.

.

[apinknightmare]

But she wasn't the only one there...how do we know that all the others went back afterwards too?

 

All that would prove to me is that all the employees of CNRI were morons with no sense of self-preservation. I get they were there to save files or whatever, but it would've come off so much better if the the writers had them go and actually get their clients out of the Glades - showing that they were risking themselves (and others, as it turns out) to save human lives instead of paper.

Edited September 22, 2014 by apinknightmare

[catrox14]

 

But she wasn't the only one there...how do we know that all the others went back afterwards too?

 

Well, the show didn't focus on the others but I was under the impression that some had stayed and some may have gone back and I really don't care what their individual reasons are because they aren't main character in this case. Laurel was being told by people who love her to not go back. Laurel is the character making the choice here and that choice cost her boyfriend's life.

[statsgirl]

Given MG's comments about the deleted scene, that when we see it we'll know why Laurel went to CNRI even though it was dangerous and we'll love her for it, the purpose of that scene was to show us how dedicated and committed she is to the little people.  Unfortunately for the producers, what it showed was how incompetent she is. Maybe that's why it ended up on the cutting room floor.

So the whole thing looked to me as if the EPs thought they had to redeem Sara in the flashbacks AS WELL, which wasn't necessary. [And this was a huge problem with almost all flashbacks in S2: they seldom taught us anything new. They were either retconning crap, or overexplaining stuff that audiences had already inferred from the present time narrative.] And, surprise: the unpredicted result was that it just ended up making people reject Laurel even more. She came off petty for wanting to steal the guy her sister had a crush on, and blind and stupid for dismissing Sara's concern that Laurel wanted to move in with a cheater.

For me, in particular, it only aggravated the cognitive dissonance I feel from what the EPs intend to show for Laurel [good-doer, victim], and what I actively see on screen as end result [entitled, self-righteous].

That's a good point, that Sara's six years should have been enough redemption for her even if she had been Malcolm Merlyn levels of evil before.  Do they want to have us see Laurel as a do-gooder?  Or not?

 

Laurel calling the police of Sara bothered me because that's just something you don't do to siblings

Just like sleeping with your sister's boyfriend isn't something you do to siblings. And yet Sara gets all sorts of shade for it while Laurel doesn't.

 

For me, that conversation set up that there was a pretty antagonistic relationship between Laurel and Sara, and that Laurel was no white hat in it.

 

Although in terms of how long Laurel and Oliver knew each other, it makes most sense to me that they met at school, probably in grade nine which is an entry year for prep schools (they add in another class so a bunch of new kids enrol, otherwise you have to wait till someone drops out).  That would make Oliver knowing her half his life.  So Laurel would have known Oliver for at least two, possibly four years before that party since Sara was two years younger.  But if Laurel already knew Oliver that well, why be so worried that Sara had a crush on him? Was it that she wasn't dating him yet and wanted to cut Sara off at the pass?

I came into the pilot episode prepared to like Laurel because (1) she was one of the main characters on a show that I was looking forward to watching and (2) I'd read that she was to become Black Canary.  As a fan of the Green Arrow comics, I was all in. 

The Laurel Problem is something I haven't seen on a  TV show before.  Normally if there is a leading character that people are this split about (love/hate, two major fandom upsets in the past week), they either change the character or write him or her out.  But because of the comics, there is one group of people who insist that she must be on the show and take her place at Oliver's side, while there is another, those who didn't come from the comics or are tired of Laurel, who would happily let her off the show.

 

There's no secret that pre-island Oliver was an immature, cheating, lying, disrespectful and spoiled brat.  How and why Laurel stayed with him has been speculated to a large extent but the show has never actually showed us.  At this point, I don't need to see it especially if they will never be hooking up again.  But it may have helped Laurel's characterization if we'd seen a bit more of her emotional needs vs her logical reasoning (she must have, on some level, known that he was cheating) when she was younger OR have her talk about it with someone (Quentin, Tommy, Dinah, Sara). 

 

If Oliver's son ever shows up, perhaps that include be a brief conversation between Laurel and Oliver - she realizes now that she never actually knew him then, that she is smarter now about what kind of person deserves to be with her, etc etc etc.  One scene that could go a long way in establishing a long needed truth, on her part, about who they both were all those years ago.  And to forgive each other now and move on.

I wonder if we are meant to see Laurel as a proto-Moira, staying with a cheating SO for the perks and because he's an alpha male. With Moira at least we got to see that she loved her children.

 

While it makes all the sense in the world for Oliver and Laurel to have a conversation if/when his child appears on the show, it's equally likely that Laurel will just assume that he came from one of the times she and Oliver were on a break.

Tommy is to blame for dumping a woman he wanted to be with. Oliver is to blame for being wishy washy about what his intentions were toward Laurel.  Laurel is to blame for following her feelings with Tommy and Oliver.  Everyone did crappy things but none of that made them hateful. 

Tommy said that if Laurel knew Oliver was The Hood, she'd be with him. And he felt that even if she didn't know, as soon as she knew that Oliver was available, she'd drop Tommy and be with Oliver.  And he was right.

 

That's on both Laurel and Oliver because they knew that Tommy loved Laurel. You don't do that to your best friend, or to the guy you know loves you and is having hard times.  Yes, Tommy could have fought for her, but what would have been the point?  He knew Laurel would pick Oliver if she could have him.

I imagine her personal life was stunted, that she focused on helping other people and neglected her emotional needs.

It's possible, but the problem is that there isn't any evidence of this other than Laurel accusing Sara of stealing her life.  If Laurel suffered, they need to show. Or even have Quentin tell us. The only indication is that she didn't date anyone other than Tommy.  Other than that, her life went on.

 

We also know she didn't help her mother, she completely rejected her, and while she helped her father, it was reluctantly and with bitterness.

 

 

I agree that almost ever character in this show has shades of grey. The problem with Laurel for me is that she's not owning up to her grey. Oliver doesn't claim to be a good person, Sara sees herself as a killer, Diggle wonders if he's still a good person after his mission in the war.  Laurel just flip flops around in her own story.  She's given shades of grey but then goes right back to staking her claim on the moral high ground. In Season one for example, she likes that the Hood helps her, likes the results that he gets but as soon as she has to personally witness him beating someone up, then she has a problem with it.  If the writers would stop telling everyone that she's a do-gooder I think it would go a long way for her character for some people.

If Laurel ever owned up to not being perfect and having the moral high ground, that would do a lot for her character.  In my experience, true do-gooders don't see themselves as saints.

 

You know who felt like they drowned on that boat, the people who actually did, Laurel. The writers can not include things where Laurel compares what she went through to what Oliver and Sara went through.

I think having Laurel compare herself to what Oliver and Sara went through is making the Laurel arguments more bitter. Some people agree, she did go through her own crucibles while others just as see it as being comparable.

 

Another thing that would help is if she didn't see herself as 'more sinned against than sinning'.  And as Orion pointed out, some emotional maturity and self-control would help too.

Edited September 22, 2014 by statsgirl

[apinknightmare]

Well, the show didn't focus on the others but I was under the impression that some had stayed and some may have gone back and I really don't care what their individual reasons are because they aren't main character in this case. Laurel was being told by people who love her to not go back. Laurel is the character making the choice here and that choice cost her boyfriend's life.

 

Eh, Tommy's choice to go after her is what cost him his life. Laurel's decision set off a chain reaction of bad decisions, yeah, but she's only responsible for the one that she made. Tommy's is on Tommy, IMO.

 

Laurel's not under any obligation to do what anyone tells her to. In hindsight, should she have? Yeah, absolutely. Much as I hate the decision Laurel made to go to/stay at CNRI, I'd also hate it if she was the type of person who just did what people told her to. What bothers me about her character regarding this particular trait is that more than once her decision to not stay behind when someone asked her to has proven to not have good results, but she still just does it without even thinking. There never seems to be any consideration of the consequences, she just heads out because she doesn't want anyone telling her what to do, I guess. Or maybe because she doesn't trust their judgment? It'd be nice if, even if she chooses to go, she paused a moment or two to show that she was considering not doing it because hey...it didn't work out so well last time.

[wonderwall]

Does it look like KC Laurel's rolling her eyes when the police officer says Sara is a hero? Was this before or after Laurel finds out about Sara?

 

Nevermind! I was mistaken :p

Edited September 22, 2014 by wonderwall

[statsgirl]

After Sara saves the kid from the building, so Laurel knew.

.

 

Eh, Tommy's choice to go after her is what cost him his life.

He loved her and she was in danger.  "There was no choice."  

(Okay, there was, but I can't see Tommy not going to save Laurel.)

Edited September 22, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

After Sara saves the kid from the building, so Laurel knew.

Huh I thought that Laurel's line was "that's the canary" in that scene? Also Sara isn't wearing the BC suit in that scene so it can't be that...

[apinknightmare]

After Sara saves the kid from the building, so Laurel knew.

.

He loved her and she was in danger.  "There was no choice."  

(Okay, there was, but I can't see Tommy not going to save Laurel.)

 

Oh, I can't see him not doing it either, that's just the kind of guy he was. I just think that ultimately we're all responsible for our own decisions. He decided to go there and get her knowing the risks, so he was willing to give his life for hers. Did she play a part in is death? Yeah, sure. Is she responsible for it? No.

Huh I thought that Laurel's line was "that's the canary" in that scene? Also Sara isn't wearing the BC suit in that scene so it can't be that...

 

This is after she rescued the kid from the building. Sara took off to change (and maybe do something else, I can't remember), and Lance and Laurel went back to the station. That's when this scene takes place.

[KirkB]

I'm not positive, because of the way the gif is set up, but I think Laurel is looking up at her father and turns her gaze to Sara (who she knows is the mystery woman the cop is talking about). So she's not actually rolling her eyes, it just kind of appears that way.

Edited September 22, 2014 by KirkB

[wonderwall]

Ahhh thanks for the clarification @KirkB and @apinknightmare!

My bad.

[blixie]

 

 

Eh, Tommy's choice to go after her is what cost him his life. Laurel's decision set off a chain reaction of bad decisions, yeah, but she's only responsible for the one that she made. Tommy's is on Tommy, IMO.

Laurel's not under any obligation to do what anyone tells her to.

THIS. Laurel is not responsible for Tommy's poor life choices up to and including saving her pathetic ass, he wasn't The Arrow, and he wasn't a first responder he was as much a part of the problem as Laurel. I'm really grossed out by the constant insinuations Laurel never "does what she's told." ICK. If she wanted to risk her life for her clients/cases that was her prerogative. 

 

 

So she's not actually rolling her eyes,

 

UM, yes she is, because Katie Cassidy is a bitter bitch who wears too many rings and can't act, and really just needs to shut up because she doesn't know how to speak, or tweet, or act, or dress.

[iluv2fly]

It's really telling how bad a character is based on ones willingness to quit a show. I mean, I definitely don't watch for Laurel by far, I've fallen in love with the other characters: Diggle, Felicity, and Oliver, but whenever the EPs go on an interview and say this is Laurel's year or whenever they say she's so fantastic KC delivers an emmy worthy performance and I don't see it, it just grates me to know that the EPs aren't seeing what we're seeing.

I truly hope you stay and watch the show, I love reading your posts! Oliver+Digg+Felicity > Laurel. But as soon as they screw up that team dynamic for good, I'm out. Laurel will never be a part of the core team, she will always be an outsider to me, and the second they try to make her a core member is the second I leave.

^^This^^ This is my biggest frustration with the show — I have fallen in love with all the characters, but this ONE manages to spoil it all with her appearance. Because of this, I will walk away from the show rather than put up with her, especially if they in any way mess with the Team. She does nothing and brings nothing to the show that someone isn't already doing. Like I said, I'm holding out hope that the cutting room floor is as much of a magnet this season for her scenes.

[wonderwall]

UM, yes she is, because Katie Cassidy is a bitter bitch who wears too many rings and can't act, and really just needs to shut up because she doesn't know how to speak, or tweet, or act, or dress.

 

I'm assuming? Heh. My bad. I legit thought she was rolling her eyes at Sara which seemed weird (and hilarious because of how she couldn't stop smiling when Sara was leaving with the LoA) to me. 

Edited September 22, 2014 by wonderwall

[MostlyC]

It's getting a little heated in here- time to move on from dissecting the gif and the current Laurel/Sara eye rolling (it's starting to make my eyes roll).

 

I don't want anyone to cross the line into personal attacks, so let's please dial it back a notch.

[Starfish35]

Ok, here's a question - to change the subject a bit. Many of us here have said Katie Cassidy is a large part of our issue with Laurel. So...in a fantasy world where you could cast anyone you want, who would you have cast to play Dinah Laurel Lance, and what would her story be?

Edited September 22, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

Yeah sorry for bringing it up @MostlyC! 

 

@Sarfish35, that's an interesting question! I honestly don't know. The actress would definitely have to be vulnerable yet badass and the only person I can think of right now that fits that description is Yvonne Strahovski but I can't really see her as BC :p So... 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

 

 

That's on both Laurel and Oliver because they knew that Tommy loved Laurel. You don't do that to your best friend, or to the guy you know loves you and is having hard times.  Yes, Tommy could have fought for her, but what would have been the point?  He knew Laurel would pick Oliver if she could have him.

 

 

If Laurel ever owned up to not being perfect and having the moral high ground, that would do a lot for her character.  In my experience, true do-gooders don't see themselves as saints.

 

I think having Laurel compare herself to what Oliver and Sara went through is making the Laurel arguments more bitter. Some people agree, she did go through her own crucibles while others just as see it as being comparable.

 

Another thing that would help is if she didn't see herself as 'more sinned against than sinning'.  And as Orion pointed out, some emotional maturity and self-control would help too.

Bolded because that was said perfectly.

 

The majority of the issue I have with Laurel is she doesn't take responsibility for anything. Everything happens to her and nothing is a result of her decisions, actions, or lack of action. This is one of my biggest pet peeves in real life let alone on TV. At some point everyone has to grow up and take responsibility for some of their actions. I prefer to deal with people who take responsibility for a majority of their actions. Because she never pays a price nor takes responsibility, I don't find I can relate to her. She's teflon and typically only criminals are teflon until eventually everything catches up with them. Maybe this will happen to Laurel, but I don't see it happening. She needs to be liked by everyone so hopefully the audience will accept her too which is at the feet of the writers.

 

It irks me when people want to compare trials and tribulations. Each of us go through different circumstances which shape us. However, Laurel thinking even a portion of her life lines up with the five years of hell Sara and Oliver endured is ridiculous. They paid the price for their bad decisions and came back to anger and hate. Laurel hating Oliver is understandable. Laurel hating Sara is ridiculous. Laurel taking a while to forgive Oliver is understandable. Laurel throwing things at Sara is bitchy. 

 

Laurel has moments which are understandable. However, in the long run they don't hold up. Be angry at Oliver, but I think her first reaction to seeing Sara should have been joy/happiness/shock/disbelief. Instead she acts like she'd prefer Sara fall off the edge of the Earth. 

 

The problem of Laurel is a trifecta - writing, acting, and translation. She's written poorly. She's not portrayed by an actress who can show the audience any emotion but superiority. She's not being translated by the audience in the manner in which the writers are trying to communicate her due to the producing. Someone needs to put a stop to the insanity.

Edited September 22, 2014 by AnalyzeAndCritique

[catrox14]

As to who to cast as Laurel.  No one. Laurel serves no purpose in the show as a character no matter who plays her. I might like her better or love to hate her if played by someone else, but in general I think Laurel just needs to be gone. 

[Lokiberry]

Ok, here's a question - to change the subject a bit. Many of us here have said Katie Cassidy is a large part of our issue with Laurel. So...in a fantasy world where you could cast anyone you want, who would you have cast to play Dinah Laurel Lance, and what would her story be?

 

Emily VanCamp. In my version, Laurel (called Dinah, because that's her name), found clues that led her to believe that what happened to the Queen's Gambit wasn't an accident, but sabotage. No one else believed her, so she investigated alone. Eventually, this led her to an old friend of her mother's, Ted Grant (played by Adam Baldwin). Her taught her all kinds of fighting skills, and finally confessed that her mother was once the mysterious, and legendary, Black Canary..Well, you can guess what happened next.

 

Flash forward a couple of years to Oliver's return. Dinah grills him about the accident, and tells him her theory. He blows her off (because he wants to "protect" her).

Meanwhile, Oliver begins his misson to avenge his father, only to find another vigilante is already on the job, and she's got plans of her own.

 

Black Canary: You're nothing but a killer.

Arrow: I've got a mission. Stay out of my way.

BC: This is my town, freak.

Arrow: Not anymore.

BC: Grrr!

Arrow: Grrr!

 

This continues for awhile, while each becomes more attracted to their costumed counterpart (Oliver and Dinah have decided that  it's all too painful to get back together). This all comes to a head when they discover Malcolm was behind everything. They learn each other's secret identities as they desperately race to prevent the Undertaking.

 

Then, in season 2, Sara returns from the dead, with a story about wandering around for years with amnesia. Is it true, or is she really a member of  the LoA sent to by Ra's al Ghul on a secret misson that puts Oliver and all of Starling City in danger?

Edited September 23, 2014 by Lokiberry

[statsgirl]

Ok, here's a question - to change the subject a bit. Many of us here have said Katie Cassidy is a large part of our issue with Laurel. So...in a fantasy world where you could cast anyone you want, who would you have cast to play Dinah Laurel Lance, and what would her story be?

That's a hard one because I don't know many actresses of that age,  Mia Kirschner but she's older now. Tatiana Maslany but she's got a better gig.  Elyse Levesque? (currently on Cedar Cove)  Holly Deveaux from Hemlock Grove?

 

I guess the casting would make a difference depending on whether you wanted to see her end up with Oliver or not.  If not, then just a good actress who can do physical things.

 

Ted Grant (played by Adam Baldwin). Her taught her all kinds of fighting skills, and finally confessed that her mother was once the mysterious, and legendary, Black Canary.

Awesome.  (as much as I'm conflicted about Adam Baldwin due to the whole birth control thing.

 

I like your scenario too.

 

 

If she wanted to risk her life for her clients/cases that was her prerogative.

The problem with this parallels the problem with comparing Laurel's five years to Oliver's and Sara's.  Laurel was risking her life not for her actual clients but for the papers in their court cases.  Tommy lost his life for a flesh and blood person.

Edited September 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

To steer away from the negativity for a bit...

 

I think there were 2 times I was actually on Laurel's side. 

• The Lance family dinner from hell 
• When Laurel was sussing out Blood 

 

Were there any moments you were actually on her side for once? 

[apinknightmare]

To steer away from the negativity for a bit...

 

I think there were 2 times I was actually on Laurel's side. 

• The Lance family dinner from hell 
• When Laurel was sussing out Blood 

 

Were there any moments you were actually on her side for once? 

 

During the Lance family dinner from hell, for sure. Oliver and Sara were such dicks in that episode and I was totally on Laurel's side. Then they had her go and apologize to Sara, and I'm still not over it.

[blixie]

 

Her responsibility is to acknowledge her culpability. 

 

Culpable and responsible are synonyms, I'm not really getting the distinction that is being made. You clearly think Laurel shares some responsibility for Tommy's death and that she is morally culpable for it. I do not see her as responsible in any way shape or form for his death, no more than Oliver was responsible for Shado's.

 

The distinction for me is that we had scene after scene where Oliver feels guility and assumes blame for Shado's death , something I found incredibly contrived and annoying since I think it was an excuse to bolster the Slade arc (of COURSE Slade blames Oliver, Oliver blames himself!), but which was humanly understandable,  and hoary and damn effective trope that made Oliver empathetic/rootable, but I would have liked him just as much if he repeatedly told Ivo and Slade that FFS he was not responsible in any way shape or form for Shado's death. Instead they gave those lines to Sara, which of course made me like Sara the only one on that island who thought remotely straight for more than five minutes at a time.

 

I think you could wank that the writers, in early S2, are trying to portray Laurel as feeling guilt and projecting it outward at those around her, and her inability to cope with that guilt is what leads to her drinking and abusing pills. The problem with that though (aside from there being no dialogue to show this, and no consistent sense of this in KC's performance) is that that isn't relatable, it isn't rootable. People who respond to stress like this are selfish assholes. We are much more likely to relate to a character who takes on the weight of something they had no real obligation to pick up, and we tend to dislike characters who refuse to pick any thing up even when it is at least partially their fault (in Laurel's case choosing to ignore that Oliver cheated on her, lying to herself about the stability of their romantic relationship).

 

So again I'm back to blaming the writers more than anyone else for failing to make Laurel into the great character Dinah supposedly was in the comics. My question is what was DLL's occupation in the comics and what was her motivation for becoming Black Canary? It seems like making her a lawyer is just one more obstacle in a gigantic mountain of obstacles they've put in her way. I can't fathom why they've chosen to write her as a terrible lawyer (prosecuting or defending), terrible at self defense, terrible at being a girlfriend, terrible at being a friend friend, terrible at being a sister, and pretty crappy at being a daughter. Delaying her ascendancy to BC is one thing but what they have managed to do is DEMOLISH the entire idea of anyone ever believing she could or should become BC. It's mind boggling, it boggles the mind.

[Starfish35]

My question is what was DLL's occupation in the comics and what was her motivation for becoming Black Canary?

Spoilered for comics talk -

I'm far from a comics expert - what I know comes from Wikipedia and the DC wikia site - but it looks like Dinah Laurel became Black Canary very young (one site I think said 19) and her day job was as a florist. Her motivation was mainly that she'd grown up surrounded by superheroes and she wanted to follow in her mother's (the first Black Canary) footsteps.

Hopefully the comics experts can give more details. :)

Edited September 23, 2014 by Starfish35

[blixie]

That's right now I remember (

She *inherited* it. Not really an amazing motivation, but really kinda of too bad, Kingston could totes sell being a bad ass superhero in her youth)

). Yet they chose to ditch the only salient reason/motivation she had in the comic while giving her obstacle after obstacle in the show? 

 

Okay then, makes sense, good plan!

[wonderwall]

Well Kingston did play River Song :') I may be in the minority here, but I absolutely adored her. 

[MostlyC]

Argument, meet circular. It's all been said, folks! 

 

Move on.  Otherwise, we will lock the thread.

[Starfish35]

Never mind....

Edited September 23, 2014 by Starfish35

[wonderwall]

*sweats nervously* now I'm afraid of posting anything on this thread :p 

 

Well I guess this will be good for me in the end. I did want to stop criticizing Laurel for a while now... This is the perfect opportunity. 

[KirkB]

Okay then, what ARE we allowed to talk about?

[Nanrad]

Just like sleeping with your sister's boyfriend isn't something you do to siblings. And yet Sara gets all sorts of shade for it while Laurel doesn't.

 

Is the last statement supposed to be said the other way around? I believe that most people (I would say all, but we know that's not true) agree that you shouldn't sleep with your sibling's significant others. Sara isn't getting a pass on that, but personally, I believe she already feels guilty enough and hates herself for what she did to Laurel. Laurel on the other hand, probably hasn't thought about that moment since until Sara brought it back up.

 

Also, just because I didn't mentioned Sara's misdeed doesn't mean I didn't think they were wrong, but we were talking about Laurel.

 

ETA: ummm...was my comment okay or did I walk into the danger zone?

Edited September 23, 2014 by Nanrad

[MostlyC]

Talk about Laurel.  Who/what/where/when/why about Laurel.  

 

Argumentative loops are friends to no one. 

 

We don't want same people posting the same thing over and over.

[wonderwall]

I actually wanted to jump into the conversation of whether or not it’s right to (partially) blame Laurel about Tommy’s death or not. I feel as though there’s no real correct answer to this. On one side, Laurel couldn’t have truly anticipated Tommy to come save her (and yes, it was Tommy’s decision to go into the unstable building ready to collapse in order to save Laurel because in the end, he loved her irrevocably) fully knowing the consequences of doing so and not regretting his decision at all. On the other hand, you have the issue that if Laurel didn’t go into that building at all and just listened to literally EVERYONE who told her to say away, Tommy wouldn’t have had to make that decision to go into that burning building in order to save her and he would still be alive (ceteris paribus). 

I would tend to go for a mixed argument. To me it’s pretty simple. If Laurel just listened to everyone, then Tommy could’ve been safe, but since she didn’t, it’s essentially both Tommy and Laurel’s fault that Tommy died because Tommy made that choice to save her. However, in the end, Tommy’s act of love and nobility outshined Laurel’s in every aspect which is why I can understand why people blame Laurel. 

And what I find interesting writing this post is that an issue that arises with this moment and how it highlights how Laurel operates by ‘acting now and thinking later,’ which, in the past (even before the undertaking) had proven to be an issue with Laurel. Scenarios where Laurel acted before she thought (before and after the undertaking):

• Sleeping with Oliver where she realized after that it was a betrayal to Tommy.
• Kissing Oliver because she truly didn’t understand what she wanted yet
• Laurel refusing Tommy’s help even though CNRI was failing, Laurel acted with pride without thinking of the ramifications of this action (possibly leaving everyone who works there jobless)
• Laurel making her client uncomfortable by calling out Oliver, Laurel let her emotions  take over her and she acted without thinking of how unprofessional it is
• She goes to CNRI to get files without thinking about how her actions will affect the people she loves (because of course the people who love her will try to save her).
• Laurel vows to take down the hood and traps him with a SWAT team without understanding why and what it would accomplish
• How she called the cops on the party Sara was to attend without thinking how much trouble Oliver/Tommy/Sara could get in
• How Laurel was willing to reveal Oliver’s identity as The Arrow without understanding the ramifications of doing so
• Following Team Arrow and running right into Slade’s army where she easily could’ve been found and killed

 

I’m sure there are a lot more instances where Laurel acts before she thinks, but it goes to show that she had never learned her lesson. Laurel continues to act before thinking even though doing so was one of the reasons Tommy died. Then we see characters who actually do think before they act (Felicity in warring over whether or not to tell Oliver the truth about Thea's parentage, Oliver literally over-thinks a lot of things unless he puts his penis in charge, Moira plays everything like it's a chess where it's all moves and counter-moves), and learn from their mistakes. This in turn makes Laurel look like a weaker character.
 
I would be more forgiving of Laurel if she actually came to an understanding that her actions have consequences and learn from her mistakes, but we never see her actually doing this. I think this is one of the reasons why people are so frustrated with her. She literally never learns from her mistakes (which is probably why her apartment is the most dangerous place in Starling).
 
I hope my post wasn't in the 'danger zone'. :)

Edited September 23, 2014 by wonderwall

[dtissagirl]

There's one thing that I put solely on the writers that frustrates the hell out of me re: Laurel -- they decided that she wouldn't know Oliver's secret, and thus, for 40+ episodes, she was operating without complete information. She was made to be an incompetent lawyer time and time again, so Oliver could have the narrative victories. Even her personal choices about Oliver and Tommy were at an immense disadvantage, because she didn't know Oliver was fighting crime in tights every night, and she didn't know Tommy knew that. And a lot of times you can see that if only she knew, her decision making process wouldn't look so stupid. 

 

That went on for a season and a half, and then in mid-S2, the one time she had the full information -- even more so, the one time she was the ONLY ONE who had all the info: Sebastian Blood -- they set up the narrative against her. That was when I gave up entirely on these writers ever making Laurel a character I can cheer for. They set it up so that I could, and then yanked it away almost immediately afterwards. 

 

I can't even be much hopeful that this pattern will change now that she's in on Team Arrow's secret, because the writing for Laurel in the last 3 episodes of S2 still wasn't sure about how to include her in the narrative with a clear function. They went back to her info on Sebastian Blood, but instead of giving Laurel a moment of catharsis, they gave the dude a moment of redemption instead. They made Laurel's presence in the Arrow cave feel more like a nuisance than a victory for her. Then they had Nyssa tranq Laurel so the plot could move without her. And finally, they used Laurel as a red-herring to fake-out Felicity taking Slade down. The conclusion is none of these narrative functions spell writer understanding of a character to me. SIGH.

[icandigit]

Her entrance in the Arrow cave was a real screw up by the writers. This was a real opportunity to rehabilitate her and they screwed the pooch. Oliver wakes up, Diggle is ticked at him and then Laurel appears. Diggle came off to me as having this yeah,  we brought Laurel, now what you gonna do. So I'm watching like ok, Oliver's mom was just murdered and he tried to sacrifice himself. Laurel has known him for years so she's going to comforting and inspiring. Instead it was awkward and off putting and she was withholding critical information.  It was another moment like the ice cream scene in S1 where I was hoping for something genuine and it didn't happen. Even if it didn't happen with acting, the dialogue should have been tighter.

[blixie]

In terms of what actress I wish had been cast as Laurel instead of KC, I'd have gone with a different SPN actress, Ms Tyra Collette herself Adrianne Palicki, she was only thing that excited me about the Wonder Woman TV show, she was perfect fit for a badass comic book heroine. Instead AoS has her, dammit!

[Sakura12]

With their supposed plan for Laurel, they have managed to render her pointless.

 

If they want to suddenly bring her into the story it should be done slowly and make sense. It shouldn't be that Laurel has her third personality change and have all these special skills that we've never seen in the past 2 seasons suddenly pop up. She shouldn't do things that someone else can already do (no sudden computer skills, she shouldn't be better with a gun than Diggle,  she shouldn't have information that Captain Lance wouldn't have had first, etc...) If she finds something out it should be because it was her case or the DA's office previous case. No one should be made suddenly incompetent so she can appear competent. Most importantly she shouldn't be handed cases or storylines without working for it or earning it. Nothing should ever be handed to Laurel, just because ever again. 

[icandigit]

On recasting Laurel. I'm not a comic book aficionado so I don't know what Dinah Lance is supposed to be like. I'm really of the mind that the creators should have worked with what they had.  Don't try to force her to be sweet. Let her be entitled and a little bitchy and let other characters respond how they would respond. I think Diggle/Laurel is the only honest thing they got going.

[statsgirl]

That's a good point, icandigit.  They've got Katie Cassidy cast as Laurel Lance and she doesn't work as the warm-hearted crusader for the little people. (See her interactions with Felicity, Diggle, Sara, Dinah, Quentin ...). They've made enough changes from the comics that they could do that with Laurel too. Have her tough, bitchy, not someone whose shoulder you'd pick to cry on or go out for a drink with but someone who believes that she has a responsibility to write the wrongs the law and the mayor's office has done, either legally, or if that doesn't work, as a vigilante.  Someone you can count on when the chips are gone to do whatever it takes.

[olicityfan25]

The first time I saw Laurel and how she told Oliver that she wished he would rot in hell a lot longer than 5 years left a bad taste to me. It was so over the top at the beginning of the show. I just don't believe Laurel and I don't believe Katie Cassidy for playing her. Oh and this was all before I was a Felicity/Olicity fan.

Edited September 26, 2014 by olicityfan25

[Angel12d]

To steer away from the negativity for a bit...

 

I think there were 2 times I was actually on Laurel's side. 

• The Lance family dinner from hell 
• When Laurel was sussing out Blood 

 

Were there any moments you were actually on her side for once? 

 

Same. I've been doing a s2 rewatch and during and after 210, 211 and 212 I was totally on Laurel's side. When she was trying to figure out Blood I was rooting for her which surprised me because I barely remembered the storyline when I watched it live. I just imagined how frustrated I would feel if I knew the truth about someone and no one believed me. Admittedly she would have faired better if she wasn't on drugs at the time but yeah. That must have been really frustrating. 

 

I was also on her side during the family dinner. I am still not over Sara inviting Oliver and I never will be. It was ridiculously contrived for the sake of plot but still. That was terrible to do to Laurel. Again. 

[catrox14]

I feel like that entire scene was contrived to give Cassidy her 'Emmy' moment, which SA easily usurped without even trying (and no it was not Emmy worthy no matter what). Ollie is too smart to go to a dinner like that, Sara is not so insecure as to beg Ollie to go with her, Laurel burned Oliver and Sara with with shenanigans in the past so the only person I actually felt sorry for during that dinner was Detective Lance  :(.  Now that work from Blackthorne was close to Emmy worthy

[looptab]

Oliver going to that dinner might have been the dumbest thing he has done in present time, or at least in the top 3. That would have been the right moment to throw glasses, IMO. At his head.

[wonderwall]

Oliver going to that dinner might have been the dumbest thing he has done in present time, or at least in the top 3. That would have been the right moment to throw glasses, IMO. At his head.

Once again, all logic has to be thrown out the window so Laurel can get more screentime which is kind of ironic because Laurel didn't even fit in to the story, she was just as isolated from the plot as ever. This was just unnecessary drama. 

[TanyaKay]

That dinner and that scene where canary points out at Felicity's jacket in Starling National Bank were the two worst scenes in two seasons. What were they thinking when they wrote them? That episode was one of the real bad ones.

Edited September 26, 2014 by TanyaKay

[BkWurm1]

 So...in a fantasy world where you could cast anyone you want, who would you have cast to play Dinah Laurel Lance,

 

Cassidy Freeman aka Tess Mercer from Smallville.  (As I type this I just realized she even has experience playing one of Oliver's betrayed ex lovers.lol)

 

Cassidy had the tougher than nails, we are doing it my way or I will stomp you to death in my stilettos persona in spades  but still also managed to make the character retain her vulnerability.  Even when she was doing heinous things, you felt for her. 

 

I can't help but imagine how different Laurel would have been perceived if after she told Oliver she wished he had stayed dead on the island that we got to catch a glimpse of her regret for saying something so cruel to someone she had supposedly loved.  I guess  I think adding the more nuanced level to her performance would have changed a lot of my knee jerk dislike of her as a character.  I know just that little touch would have made when she then reached out to Oliver and offered to listen if he wanted to talk seem just a hair less what the hell?

 

Were there any moments you were actually on her side for once?

 

For a second at the dinner until she then in turn decided she should make her father feel as shitty as she did.  So what...10 seconds?

 

I wasn't actively against her the rest of the time but I was most often whenever she was doing something on screen just waiting for the shoe to drop on whatever annoying thing she was going to do next. 

 

I guess I felt a retroactive weak pity slash disgust on her behalf when we found out the reason Oliver was moping about with his head on her lap was because he knocked up another woman!!!!!!  Actually, I'm still ticked about that. 

 

My problem with her investigating Blood was all the reasons she was doing the investigating felt contrived with a heaping helping of yeah, as if.  So Laurel goes to see the crazy aunt how never talks to anyone but she not only is allowed in to visit a stranger, she's left alone with her and the woman spills her guts and (and this is the big and) why would Laurel actually believe the crazy lunatic locked up for the past twenty years???  But that's more a storyline failure than a character failure.

 

I was actually on Laurel's side when she blackmailed the DA into giving back her old job.  Hired back under false pretenses so she could be bait? Seriously?  They absolutely better give her back a paying position.

 

Of course the second she spewed that drivel about letting the darkness in, I was through with her character once again. 

[TanyaKay]

I had no idea who Black Canary was before I saw the show but after watching the very first episode, I did wonder if the show would've been better if they had cast Eliza Dushku as Laurel Lance. She is older than Cassidy but she is the same age as Stephen Amell and would've totally sold a tough as nails lawyer with little patience for non sense. Her voice has the gravitas for her to be a strong empowered female. KC comes as whiney when she tries to portray strong woman. Eliza Dushku is also capable enough to bring some nuance to her character. Now that I think about it, she would have looked great with Colin Donnel who played Tommy.

Ah the missed opportunities.

Edited September 29, 2014 by TanyaKay