Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[EmilyBettFan]

BkWurm1 that sounds good but I don't think KC has the chops to play nice or worried for others.

[LeighAn]

I had to laugh at the Dhark trial where they had the judge basically say that Laurel was a crappy lawyer but for some convuluted technicality she would rule in her favor anyway haha. The writers didn't treat her as a talented Lawyer who deserves respect in fact they had Laurel basically black mail herself into a job.

Edited December 28, 2016 by LeighAn

[BkWurm1]

15 hours ago, kismet said:

My biggest problem is that we can and have all written amazing fix its but if LL returns that is not what the writers will do. They will find some way to muck it all up again.

I also don't think KCs ideas or acting choices have changed much which will make her return problematic on Arrow. Well that and her antichemistry with SA.

I just don't see any good coming out of her return unless they allow her to be bad or let another shows writers room take her on.

Of course you are right. Nothing I said is really all that original.  We've all expressed similar thoughts in the past.  It's so hard not to see how this show could have been so much better.  

10 hours ago, EmilyBettFan said:

BkWurm1 that sounds good but I don't think KC has the chops to play nice or worried for others.

It will remain a mystery of how much different the show might have played out with a different actress.  I'm really not sure how much KC can be blamed.  I'll give her credit for the Laurel loves Ollie stuff that lingered when it should not have, but ...

 

4 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I had to laugh at the Dhark trial where they had the judge basically say that Laurel was a crappy lawyer but for some convuluted technicality she would rule in her favor anyway haha. The writers didn't treat her as a talented Lawyer who deserves respect in fact they had Laurel basically black mail herself into a job.

But when they deliberately wrote Laurel to look so bad, I just don't get what they were trying to accomplish.  

[statsgirl]

On 2016-12-27 at 2:41 AM, BkWurm1 said:

Her season arc would be becoming more and more disillusioned as she found more corruption within the system and more and more understanding of why her dad had come around to the Arrow's way of doing things.  She should have been shown to really find the reports of the woman in black fascinating.  She'd know she was working with the Arrow and maybe at the point where she finds out stuff about Blood, she tries to contact the Arrow only to instead get the Canary.  And then she keeps reaching out to the Canary, not knowing it's her not dead sister. 

Also, this would have been a good time for Felicity and Laurel to get to know each other.  Quentin knows what she does and so she could have been the way for Laurel to connect to the Canary as well.  Help connect the cast a bit.  

 Back to the subject of Sara.  Her dad will know and is keeping it from her.  It all comes to a head when Laurel finds out Sara is alive.  She's overjoyed at first only to find out that Sara had been in town for months as the Canary and working with her as the Canary (and starting to bond) and didn't tell her.  And her dad had known.  Cue thrown wine glass and furious at her family. 

I love this scenario, especially Laurel connecting through Sara.  I don't know why they didn't do it, because it didn't occur to them or because they wanted everything to go through Oliver, but it shows that they could have done Laurel so much better.

[kismet]

On 12/27/2016 at 8:18 PM, BkWurm1 said:

Of course you are right. Nothing I said is really all that original.  We've all expressed similar thoughts in the past.  It's so hard not to see how this show could have been so much better. 

I do think the majority of failures of the character can be blamed on the writing. There is some blame on KC's or the director's shoulders for how they chose to act out some of the seasons. I also think KC's personal head canon did interfere with some elements.

I have nothing against KC, but I was not really familiar with her before - I think the only project I saw her in was "Monte Carlo" when I was snowed in one day. I also have never found her acting style to make me want to dig more into her other acting projects. That being said, I did like her portrayal in s1 for the most part. I thought the character and KC had some potential. Oh how we were gravely mistaken.... However, on a personal level I will say that I am glad that I can blame some of it on KC... because I can only imagine how disappointed and upset I would be if an actress I really enjoyed was given such a dud of a writing & characterization. Sadly, this is what is happening for me with EBR/FS for a little while now. There are only some many times the actor can salvage the character before it starts to really take a toll on my enjoyment of the character.

[Chaser]

Because of the physical changes KC made in S2 (buccal fat removal I think and the weight loss) and Laurel's total style change, at first glance its like Laurel was recast. It's rather jarring when you watch S1 and 2 back to back.

Also that shifty eye stare that Laurel did with Slade made its first appearance long before that scene.

[Chaser]

Her motivation for going after The Hood in early season 2 still makes absolutely no sense. I know its denial but the thinking required to get to that conclusion makes Laurel look self-centered and stupid. 

Thinking about it, they really should have simplified her motive. Malcom was a hooded Archer who believed he was saving the city by killing 'bad' people. Kind of sounds like The Hood. She could have becomed concerned The Hood could turn into another Dark Archer.

Really makes me wonder if they didn't care so much how Laurel came across because they were only planning on keeping Sara.

Edited December 30, 2016 by Chaser

[GHScorpiosRule]

36 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Because of the physical changes KC made in S2 (buccal fat removal I think and the weight loss) and Laurel's total style change, at first glance its like Laurel was recast. It's rather jarring when you watch S1 and 2 back to back.

 

I thought that was just me! I knew something was off, but I couldn't put my finger on it, and it was just more glaring when she went blonde.

37 minutes ago, Chaser said:

 

Also that shifty eye stare that Laurel did with Slade made its first appearance long before that scene.

Not just the eye stare, but the open mouth breathing palpitations, which I think of as her guppy fish tic. Something she did all the time when someone gave her news, she was trying to demonstrate anger or shock.

It's very eye roll worthy.

[bijoux]

47 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Because of the physical changes KC made in S2 (buccal fat removal I think and the weight loss) and Laurel's total style change, at first glance its like Laurel was recast. It's rather jarring when you watch S1 and 2 back to back.

Also that shifty eye stare that Laurel did with Slade made its first appearance long before that scene.

It took me a minute from reading this to googling buccal fat removal, to going to this-is-some-weird-shit, to thinking do I have fat cheeks? I haven't thought so but going through the before pics of what seem like perfectly normal faces, maybe? I landed back on, this is crazypants. It was an intense few minutes at the start of the day.

[BkWurm1]

On 12/30/2016 at 0:40 AM, bijoux said:

It took me a minute from reading this to googling buccal fat removal, to going to this-is-some-weird-shit, to thinking do I have fat cheeks? I haven't thought so but going through the before pics of what seem like perfectly normal faces, maybe? I landed back on, this is crazypants. It was an intense few minutes at the start of the day.

Lol, your post sent me down the rabbit hole for a while too.  The big issue with the buccal fat removal/reduction is that if done on the wrong kind of face, it makes them look gaunt and aged and gets worse as they get older since we naturally lose fullness in our faces as we age.  

[statsgirl]

Carrie Fisher said that when she was hired to play Princess Leia, she was told to lost 10 pounds. She weighed 105 lbs at the time, and the fat was on her face.  Imagine the pressure!

[BkWurm1]

I wish we could say that things are better in film and TV now a days, but...  yeah, not so much.  

After looking at the before and after pictures, I got the impression that the procedure is something a lot of actors (women and men) have done.  It was hilarious to read about how people that had done the procedure in their twenties are desperately scrambling by their thirties to have fat injected back into their faces cause now they look old and ill.   

[Chaser]

Oliver friend zones Laurel quickly in S2 season - we can't go back, friends, friends, friends. Ep4/5 introduces Sara - meeting, backstory, partnership with Oliver. Ep6/7 features Olicity - I can't be with someone I could really care about, killing The Count, There was no choice to make.

I suddenly get why so many thought people thought KC was on her way out. I'm curious about when she figured it out because they seemed like they were planning on writing a friendship with Oliver and Laurel but that just seemed to fall apart. At some point they stopped attempting to have KC and SA act at all with each other.

[Chaos Theory]

I always liked Laurel.  Especially when she was going through her downward spiral but then I always did love a good lady downward spiral.  Honestly I judge a show a lot on how it treats his female cast.  The females don't have to be leads or even appear every episode but when it seems the females get written badly I tend to get turned off a show quickly.  Then again Arrow got old pretty quickly anyway.

[kismet]

I really wonder if KC's contract sabotaged the natural progression of her character and the show. KC/LL as a villain would have been good. Even if KC was against LL becoming a villain, allowing her to be friends and fighting partners would have been better than what we got. But I do wonder if she or her representation put up a fight after losing her coveted LI slot and that created drama that the writers room just didn't want to deal with. So rather than writing her a hero's journey worthy of the legacy of BC, they just decided to write a basic rudimentary story to fulfill her contract and find a way to get her killed off as soon as they were legally able to. Because the writing for LL definitely tanked and became exceptionally worse after s2. Perhaps if KC had thought more outside of the box, LL/BC could have become a kickass female character. Instead her character became very cliched and virtually unnecessary. Even s5's obsession with WWLD is not really about her, its more just about a having a cautionary tale they spin as legacy.

Edited January 10, 2017 by kismet

[Featherhat]

11 minutes ago, kismet said:

I really wonder if KC's contract sabotaged the natural progression of her character and the show. KC/LL as a villain would have been good. Even if KC was against LL becoming a villain, allowing her to be friends and fighting partners would have been better than what we got. But I do wonder if she or her representation put up a fight after losing her coveted LI slot and that created drama that the writers room just didn't want to deal with. So rather than writing her a hero's journey worthy of the legacy of BC, they just decided to write a basic rudimentary story to fulfill her contract and find a way to get her killed off as soon as they were legally able to. Because the writing for LL definitely tanked and became exceptionally worse after s2. Perhaps if KC had thought more outside of the box, LL/BC could have become a kickass female character. Instead her character became very cliched and virtually unnecessary. Even s5's obsession with WWLD is not really about her, its more just about a having a cautionary tale they spin as legacy.

Possibly. I think the main writers/EPs gave up any hope of making her the primary LI mid S2 which co-incided with FS getting series regular status and CL and Sara being so awesome and basically BC without the official name (she even had a Sin). I do think it wasn't a great match on either side. KC had done some popular work previously on SPN, NuMP and Harpers Island. She was the next pick for CW Princess status. Except the writers saddled her with a truly toxic backstory and minimal fighting skills. I think they originally thought Rachel Dawes to Arrow's small screen Batman but even that was a bust, not totally KC's fault at all. Some fans say she got better before her death but isn't that the way of (especially female characters). Right before Sara was killed off in 3,01 everyone was saying how this season had such a big story arc for her..........yeah. Moira is a slightly different discussion but no proof that screen = good storylines. LL/and/orBS might be coming back but it can't go in indefinitely is she isn't coming back for good. Who wants to be a guest star (after being let go) in the show they originally thought was the shot at a leading lady?

[Sakura12]

I think originally Sara Lance wasn't going to be anything more than a story device for Laurel. Then they saw that LL not only failed as a love interest, she failed as a character. So they decided to try something else and brought Sara back from the dead, found an actress that is an actual badass in real life and gave her the BC origin story, complete with rescuing a wayward orphan named Sin.

I know people said to expect Sara not to stick around because comics, but if you really watch Season 2, nothing about that season at all looked like they were getting rid of Sara for Laurel. Laurel was an after thought that entire season until the jacket scene. Even that was superficial. If Laurel was really meant for the mask, why did they show her start to train or show any kind of interest in her sister's life during that season? Why wasn't Laurel more involved with Sara's storyline? 

KC didn't make it a secret that she was upset that they brought in CL. She probably became more upset when Sara became popular, even when she got between Olicity. CL caught some flack for that but people still liked her better than Laurel. That's probably when the lawyers got involved and the whole storyline changed, Sara was killed off quickly and Laurel jumped straight into the mask. 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Sakura12

[BkWurm1]

On 1/9/2017 at 9:24 PM, Sakura12 said:

 

I think originally Sara Lance wasn't going to be anything more than a story device for Laurel. Then they saw that LL not only failed as a love interest, she failed as a character. So they decided to try something else and brought Sara back from the dead, found an actress that is an actual badass in real life and gave her the BC origin story, complete with rescuing a wayward orphan named Sin.

 

They have said they always intended for Sara to return but they also said they originally thought maybe Ravanger so I agree that plans drastically changed to end up making her the Canary. 

[CooperTV]

43 minutes ago, sadfangirl said:

Mooning over a guy who slept with everyone in sight including her sister - that's not love that's being a doormat - by episode 2 I thought she was a gold digger, there's no other way she'd put up with that. Sorry, a real badass would have dumped him years ago and never looked back.

Laurel (and Sara as well) comes from broken home and destructive family with a distant selfish mother and an alcoholic dad. There's no way she wouldn't be clinging to Oliver (who always was distant and selfish) for comfort. Unfortunately, Laurel clearly never knew any better. I mean, she was also distant and selfish and self-centered all way through but that's my headcanon for her.

[emarasmoak]

1 hour ago, CooperTV said:

Laurel (and Sara as well) comes from broken home and destructive family with a distant selfish mother and an alcoholic dad. There's no way she wouldn't be clinging to Oliver (who always was distant and selfish) for comfort. Unfortunately, Laurel clearly never knew any better. I mean, she was also distant and selfish and self-centered all way through but that's my headcanon for her.

Quentin was not an alcoholic before Sara's first "death". Also Laurel was not probably Dinah's favourite daughter, but I think that she was Quentin's and both sisters seemed to be happy and loved by their family in the flashback in Episode "Heir to the Demon" (2x13) showing a dinner at the Lances' home before the Queen's Gambit is missing. I don't think that Laurel was clinging to Oliver because she felt unloved by her family. I just think that she was hugely interested in him and possibly in his lifestyle. It is difficult for me to understand why she would stay with a cheating boyfriend for such a long time but everyone is different, I guess.

Edited January 12, 2017 by emarasmoak

[CooperTV]

13 minutes ago, emarasmoak said:

Quentin was not an alcoholic before Sara's first "death". Also Laurel was not probably Dinah's favourite daughter, but I think that she was Quentin's and both sisters seemed to be happy and loved by their family in the flashback in Episode "Heir to the Demon" (2x13) showing a dinner at the Lances' home before the Queen's Gambit is missing.

As I mentioned, this is my headcanon to reconcile not very good writing of Laurel to something resembling real world.

But here's the thing. For me the Lances could be seen as "good" family as compared to complete clusterfuck of the Queens or non-existent and/or pshychologically abusive of the Merlyns. They had a nuclear family thing going for them but it all fell apart completely after Sara's first "death". In "good", healthy families children don't grow up to be codependent (therefore controlling) the way Laurel Lance is codependent to Oliver and her father. From what I've seen on Arrow I could suggest that the Lances's perceived happiness was just not there or maybe it's because we saw an unreliable narrator's POV. Which, incidentally, how Laurel Lance always relates to her past in the present but that's besides the point.

On the other hand, I don't think the writers even consider how their writing of the Lances or Laurel comes off to viewers (or in this case, only to me). This is my usual struggle with Flarrowverse writing because it looks like character's reactions and responses are just there for plot and they react to things like aliens from Mars.

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I agree. I don't think the Lance family was as happy and normal as we saw in that flashback. Because Laurel being so codependent with Oliver has to come from somewhere. Pre-Island Oliver was not a catch. The only thing that makes sense for Laurel to stay with Oliver despite all his cheating is her being a gold digger. Then we had Sara who was stealing other girls boyfriends, getting into fights, skipping classes and going to the wild parties of Oliver and Tommy when she was like 14. They also mentioned something about Sara running away a lot when she was younger. I know some people just like to be rebellious, but it could also mean that the Lance's were not all that great.  Their mother doesn't seem all that interested in her daughters. I know they can't get Alex Kingston that often, but when she was there she didn't seem that motherly toward them. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Sakura12

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Yeah, I agree. I don't think the Lance family was as happy and normal as we saw in that flashback. Because Laurel being so codependent with Oliver has to come from somewhere. Pre-Island Oliver was not a catch. The only thing that makes sense for Laurel to stay with Oliver despite all his cheating is her being a gold digger. Then we had Sara who was stealing other girls boyfriends, getting into fights, skipping classes and going to the wild parties of Oliver and Tommy when she was like 14. They also mentioned something about Sara running away a lot when she was younger. I know some people just like to be rebellious, but it could also mean that the Lance's were not all that great.  Their mother doesn't seem all that interested in her daughters. I know they can't get Alex Kingston that often, but when she was there she didn't seem that motherly toward them. 

I don't know.  I think the Lances were shown to be a pretty happy and normal family.  That doesn't mean that they were perfect and it doesn't mean that they were great communicators or that when the bad times came that they knew how to lean on each other.   But falling apart under pressure doesn't mean they weren't pretty normal.  

It wouldn't even surprise me if their mom fostered some of their competitiveness and Dad probably didn't help by making Laurel look out for Sara even while Sara is resenting Laurel for being "perfect" but again, that's all pretty normal stuff.  Could the Lances been a better family?  Sure, but couldn't all of us say the same thing about our families? 

 Sara and Laurel had a rivalry that IMO got pretty mean and I think we did see a selfishness fostered in both of them even while we saw a certain familiarity and closeness, but all that doesn't mean they grew up in a bad situation or that had tragedy not hit, that they couldn't have all kept being a relatively normal and happy family with their normal ups and downs.  

[statsgirl]

I don't know what "co-dependent" means.  It's not a term in the psychology or psychiatric literature, it comes out of pop psych usage.

I see the Lance as a pretty normal family with normal flaws.  Dinah was a college professor and Quentin was a blue collar cop (per PB). so I guess there was a status difference there.  Laurel was smart and pretty and the eldest and Sara was only two years younger so I guess some rivalry was inevitable and made worse by Laurel seeing herself as the best and deserving of what she wanted.

I don't think there was any codependence with Oliver -- married to the cute rich guy with the family status was what she wanted and if it took a while to straighten him out, that's what she was going to do.  I know she was quite capable of planning to make him into what she wanted him to be because that's what she did with Tommy in s1 but it just worked better with Tommy because he was needier for affection and support.

Laurel took Oliver back after his cheating not because she was codependent but because she wanted to be Mrs. Oliver Queen, to the point of being delusional about it.  When Sara pointed out the flaw in her three year plan (now we move in together, a year later we get engaged, and after that we get married), that Oliver didn't want to be tied down, Laurel's reaction was "Why can't you be happy for me?"  That's not codependence, that's narcissism.  To be fair, Laurel was only 22 and adolescents are notoriously narcissistic.  But some of that narcissism remained 9 years later in s4 when she demanded that Oliver treat her as an equal on the Team.

And the idea that "I'll marry him/her and then he/she will change after marriage" is probably the most common myth around.

The story about seeing Sara liking Oliver and getting her grounded so that Laurel could grab him herself comes from an unreliable narrator (Sara) but it's consistent with what Laurel did to Dinah in season 1 when Dinah was convinced Sara was alive -- first get Quentin to convince Dinah she was wrong and when that didn't work, to arrange for Dinah to overhear the woman at the police station say it wasn't Sara in the photograph. That's one of the most cruel things I've seen a "good guy" on the show do.

I don't see the Lances as a dysfunctional family prior to Sara's "death" at which time Laurel was 22 and already set in her personality.  The Adlerians believe that people are controlling for two reasons: first because they don't want to be controlled by others; and second because they like controlling.  I see Laurel in the second category.  There was no way Tommy was going to control her and yet she always controlled him as well as Quentin.  Oliver she couldn't control no matter how hard she tried because he just didn't care enough.

7 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Then we had Sara who was stealing other girls boyfriends, getting into fights, skipping classes and going to the wild parties of Oliver and Tommy when she was like 14. They also mentioned something about Sara running away a lot when she was younger.

I don't remember this, except something vaguely about a dropped scene about Sara and girls at school?

I can understand why Sara could turn out rebellious though, with Laurel so perfect and so dominant, it might be the only way Sara could get attention in her family.

Edited January 12, 2017 by statsgirl

[bijoux]

Sara stealing another girl's boyfriend is from a tie in comic. I don't remember the running away part, but it could also be in there. I do vaguely remember shoplifting when Laurel tried to persuade Lance to give Thea a break in S1.

[statsgirl]

Thanks, @bijoux.   I knew I heard it somewhere.  I remember the shoplifting ... I wonder if they planned to bring Sara back at that point.

Stealing another girl's boyfriend could do either way, an awful thing to do (like getting your sister grounded so you could get the boy) or minor payback to a mean girl.  Like shoplifting, it could indicate a serious problem or it could just be minor acting out.  Since Sara ended up a good person, I'm going with the latter.

[kismet]

I do believe the Lances were a loving and relatively normal family. I think the death of SL was tragic and it broke them, as many tragedies do. Nobody is perfect, and every family makes mistakes. I think the Lances probably innocently indulged their children's worst attributes, which sometimes happens. They let SL be the free spirit and LL be the dominant perfect child/mean girl. I haven't met one parent who doesn't have at least one regret in how they raised their children. And I haven't met one person, who doesn't have something in their present day that they can link back to their childhood. It's human nature and growth that people make mistakes with the best intentions. Parenting and childhood do not come with an owner's manual or a instructional guide.

I never saw LL as co-dependent. And nothing in her character portrayal would indicate that she is co-dependent. Co-dependent people require other people to help them do basic stuff. LL was relatively independent. She loved her father which is why she stayed to help him after their lives fell apart. Which is why her pretending to be her dead sister and lying to him was for me one of the most atrocious things they ever showed her doing. Even as a gesture of love, that was beyond cruel and malicious.

She most definitely was a Narcissist. She was self-absorbed. I do believed she loved to control people & situations. She was very delusional. Her having some mental health issues was not that far of a stretch for me, because they wrote her so extreme at times and KC played her a little unhinged. But while they flirted with the idea, I don't think they had the brains or the chutzpah to pull it off. Even her addiction story got tossed rather quickly to the for plot category.

As for her staying with OQ for so long, I think she was a gold-digger in many ways. It wasn't about the money, but about the status. She wanted to be Mrs. Queen and rule SC's elites. She could look beyond his infidelities because either 1. she would eventually change him or 2. the end justifies the means. She could have a successful marriage with him that would give her all she ever wanted in life - success, prestige and presumed happiness. I actually think the Gambit incident helped her see that there was more in life, but I think it also rightly made her question if it was worth it to put yourself out there emotionally. Because there is always the risk of getting hurt when you make yourself emotionally vulnerable. And LL does not like to be hurt or emotionally vulnerable.

Ultimately, for me LL's character actually made sense in the early seasons. It wasn't necessarily an appealing or likeable character. But it was logical. It was when they started writing her back to the girl forever in love with OQ that it became absurd and pathetic. Her death bed confession had to be one of the most insulting things they ever could do for a character, especially a female character.

[Sakura12]

I actually don't think the Gambit incident helped her see anything. She held onto that resentment and anger for 5/6 years, she could never give herself to fully to Tommy and lashed out at Oliver and Sara when they came back alive. 

Then we saw she never let go of Oliver even after he choose her Sara over again, then almost married Felicity. She still held onto her delusion that Oliver would love her. 

[statsgirl]

3 hours ago, kismet said:

It wasn't about the money, but about the status. She wanted to be Mrs. Queen and rule SC's elites. She could look beyond his infidelities because either 1. she would eventually change him or 2. the end justifies the means. She could have a successful marriage with him that would give her all she ever wanted in life - success, prestige and presumed happiness.

You could even tie that back to her time at Starling Academy.  Her  parents, especially her mother, would have wanted her to have the best education possible but the daughter of a beat cop and a lecturer wouldn't have anywhere near the money the other students had.  Teenage Laurel could have decided that she wanted what the other students had, the status, the spending money and the admiration and envy of others, and being Mrs. Oliver Queen was the way to do it.  She'd fix any problems later.

[Featherhat]

The way I make sense of LL in those flash backs with pre island Ollie is that she is someone who has always done everything right on schedule in a grand plan for a perfect life. Damn the torpedoes listening to what the other person actually wants as well (both Ollie and Laurel were being extremely narcissistic at this stage): Good school, good grades, good college, good degree, handsome, wealthy boyfriend who's heir to a big company. Followed smartly by getting a place, engagement, big perfect wedding, couple of perfect kid and prestige, status, great career, perfect power family life. There are lots of people who follow (or try to) the same formula when their SO is NOT a billionheir and it's common for people to be "oh well we've finished college, now lets progress to the next part, without finding out if they are both on the same page or thinking about deviating from that "perfect progression path" so whilst she definitely liked the prestige of being Mrs Oliver Queen I don't think it was just/only money.

The denial thing is similar and I can see her trying to blank on it as his "official public girlfriend" hoping he will get with the program eventually but that scene with Sara where Sara flat out points out Ollie has a dozen girls on the go (at least) and isn't ready for Laurel's schedule (if ever) is still strange, as she doesn't deny it, explain why she can ignore it but bitches "why can't you be happy for me!" I guess it's denial but it's some serious self delusion that none of what Sara is saying matters and she only wants to rain on Laurel's prefect life parade. I mean Sara is one of those girls and her motives aren't exactly 100% pure here but Laurel's brain couldn't even compute enough to make a response whether it be "so in love she's blind" or "eyes on the ultimate prize". Then again, Sara has a much clearer idea of what Ollie's actually like and she still professed to be in love and go with him on a 3 week cruise that was bound to end in misery one way or the other.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Featherhat
spelling and Grammar

[kismet]

I always wondered if Sara in love with OQ was a retcon after they ditched LL the LI. It just seemed a little out there and a little convenient esp to explain Mama Lances involvement in the boat trip. I think it was writers shortcut to explain why there was division in the Lance family. And to allow some romantic stalling by setting up O/S as a couple or at least friends with benefits & emotions.

Edited January 15, 2017 by kismet

[Featherhat]

30 minutes ago, kismet said:

I always wondered if Sara in love with OQ was a retcon after they ditched LL the LI. It just seemed a little out there and a little convenient esp to explain Mama Lances involvement in the boat trip. I think it was writers shortcut to explain why there was division in the Lance family. And to allow some romantic stalling by setting up O/S as a couple or at least friends with benefits & emotions.

I think they maybe were trying to set up the Sara/Oliver for the second half of the season in a more sympathetic light, even if a less "relationship-py" hook up might have made more sense. 

Also maybe at this point they were thinking Sara wasn't going to get killed off in 3.01 and would either be a regular next season or strongly recurring. I still think that was the intention, whoever eventually decided otherwise, in which case they'd need to retcon Sara into someone who had a more complicated reason for a move that could only ever blow up her family, especially once Dinah's knowledge/involvement came to light. (whilst also making LL look more pathetic, I think it did suck to be KC in S2, even if I don't think she was ever capable of being BC or a viable LI.)

It may just have been making viable stalling but I think it might have been better if they'd shown Sara and Ollie were also a narcissistic couple who didn't give a shit on the boat but had both "had their Islands" and were so far past that now that it didn't matter what they had/hadn't felt beforehand. Although in a season with so much Lance Family Drama the fact that neither sister actually had more than a minute's convo with each other is the worst.

Also other Dinah and Dinah/Lance issues but I tend to forget about her when she isn't around (and I always *try* to forget River Song sorry).

[Midnight Lullaby]

I don't think there were particular issues that led Laurel to cling to Oliver even when he was a horrible boyfriend..there are many women that choose to ignore what their boyfriend/husband does because it's easier. It isn't a behavior to admire but it's not that uncommon for people to choose the easy way and not confront the issue.

I think Laurel was fine with pretending her life with Oliver was perfect even if he slept with other women because admitting to herself that he didn't want the same would have meant not being Mrs Queen, and that seemed her plan for her future, and having to look for someone else which would have been harder than just keep going as if nothing was happening.

What I don't get is why they thought this type of relationship was something they could sell as the show's great love. 

[Sakura12]

I think even if Sara was in love with Oliver she was more pragmatic about him. She knew what type of guy he was and since she was into girls too I could see her bringing a girl with her and being like if you want to sleep with other girls, sleep with both of us together because I want to sleep with this girl too. I also think that if Sara had never gone on the boat with him or they made it back safely, Sara would've eventually found someone else, a woman perhaps and Oliver would be in the past.

While Laurel never gave up her "love" for Oliver even to her dying breath. She knew about him and that he choose Sara twice over her and was almost going to marry Felicity. That goes beyond just trying to be Mrs. Oliver Queen and have the status. She was delusional about their entire relationship. And she held on to that delusion. I don't think Oliver ever loved her, he cared about her and felt guilty about what he did to her, but I don't think he was ever in love with her. 

[statsgirl]

Interesting... I just assumed that Sara didn't get into girls until she fell in love with Nyssa, I guess because if she had an alternative, I can't see why she would have thought she was in love with Oliver.  After the island it was a different situation, they both thought they were so broken they didn't deserve anything better than the relationship they had with each other.

6 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

What I don't get is why they thought this type of relationship was something they could sell as the show's great love. 

They also thought that the sister swapping was something we would be impressed by in terms of Oliver's great sexual prowess and even with it they could still sell Laurel as the love of his life.  Laurel isn't the only person/character who was delusional in all this.

Interestingly, I think if they had gone with Tommy as being the love of Laurel's life (as he is in ash818's Legacy stories where she tries to marry twice after Tommy dies but they both fail), I think they could have redeemed Laurel as a character.  She was young, she thought she was in love with Oliver and they would both get beyond his cheating and have the perfect life she was planning for them.  Then he comes back from the island, he's not who she thought he was or who she wanted, she falls in love with Tommy in a mature way and grows up.   Instead the writers and KC chose to go with Laurel delusional about her relationship with Oliver to the end.

Edited January 15, 2017 by statsgirl

[Sakura12]

It was never said on the show but the writers said that Nyssa wasn't Sara's first female relationship. Then in the alien dream world they had Sara not hook up with Oliver and prefer girls.  I think that was their way of putting that information out there. I don't see how liking girls means she couldn't love Oliver. Sara's Bi, so she'll fall in love with men or women. I could actually see why Sara was attracted to Oliver, he was cute, fun and liked to party like she did. Sara and Oliver seemed to have similar personalities before the Gambit. Laurel's attraction to him seems be based on the hotness and the wealth since she wasn't into wild parties.   

Laurel never seemed to get out her delusion that her and Oliver would have a perfect life together. When she discovered that Sara was alive, the first thing she did was yell at her about ruining that life she imagined she'd have with Oliver. When in reality even if she got Oliver to marry her it would've been a loveless, destructive marriage where Oliver would still be cheating on her. 

Edited January 15, 2017 by Sakura12

[CooperTV]

34 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Then in the alien dream world they had Sara not hook up with Oliver and prefer girls.  I think that was their way of putting that information out there.

My impression is that the scene was there to be small "This is wrong" moment, the same way the Queens were overwhelmingly happy and functional family or the fact Dig was the Hood/Arrow/whoever.

[Chaser]

I thought that scene was to remove some of the toxicity of the Oliver and Laurel relationship. 

[Sakura12]

I didn't see that line as "this is wrong" moment since on LoT they've made Sara prefer girls. I took it as a line to show the audience that Sara was always into girls. However they could've also used it to try and make the dream Laurel/Oliver romance less toxic. Even the aliens thought that was wrong and erased it in their dream scenario.  

[statsgirl]

There was just something about the Sara/Nyssa interactions that made me feel like Nyssa was Sara's first female relationship.

26 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I thought that scene was to remove some of the toxicity of the Oliver and Laurel relationship. 

Yes, that's how I saw it too.  Sara was a little too adamant about preferring girls to make it seem natural.  Like if she really was only attracted to girls, why would the thought of being with Oliver even cross her mind? (Was Oliver's cheating that much on the surface of everyone's thoughts?)) And if she was bi, why would she say that about not being with Oliver in the first place?

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Laurel's attraction to him seems be based on the hotness and the wealth since she wasn't into wild parties.   

Laurel never seemed to get out her delusion that her and Oliver would have a perfect life together. When she discovered that Sara was alive, the first thing she did was yell at her about ruining that life she imagined she'd have with Oliver. When in reality even if she got Oliver to marry her it would've been a loveless, destructive marriage where Oliver would still be cheating on her. 

I'm willing to give Laurel the benefit of the doubt that there was something she saw in Oliver that was good and had potential.  Presumably she'd known him for several years pre-Gambit, so maybe she knew him before the parties.  After all, she could have gone for Carter Bowen instead.

After all the blaming of Oliver in s1 for killing her sister, Laurel's first response to Sara being how she ruined Laurel's potential life with Oliver was all kinds of WTH?  Unless there was another reason for Oliver to mature out of the douchebag that he was, it wouldn't have been the life of Laurel's dreams.  And since she repeatedly rejected Oliver in s1 for not being the kind of person who saves other (i.e. not like The Hood), it seems like Laurel was still hanging on to the fantasy while rejecting the reality that she thought Oliver was.

[Sakura12]

I didn't see enough of Sara and Nyssa's relationship to make that judgement.

Sara said she prefers girls not that she only likes girls, so dating Oliver wouldn't be out of the question. It was still strange for Laurel to bring that up during her Wedding rehearsal. It was like isn't funny that I though you and Oliver would hook up behind my back.  That's what I'm thinking about as I'm about to marry that guy. 

[statsgirl]

That part was Sara's fantasy creation so if it was about righting regrets, it makes sense that she would put the words into Laurel's mouth.  Adding that she prefers girls is the icing.

Taking up with Oliver behind Laurel's back was just such a wrong thing, the only explanation I have for it is 1. Sara was really, really angry at Laurel or 2. Sara was preferentially into pretty party boys.

[Starfish35]

I'm always going to be a little confused about why Laurel is held up as a standard of "no-killing".  It's like her shooting the fake Brother Blood in Blind Spot never happened.   She put six bullets into him.  She would have shot Komodo if Oliver hadn't taken the bullets out of her gun.  She had no problems trying to kill Malcolm herself and when that didn't work, turning him over to Ra's to be killed.  I guess I just don't get it. *confused*

[BkWurm1]

She gets excused for the Blood copy cat since it was saving a life and the rest people don't count since apparently intent doesn't count in their books.

So logic be damned?

[Starfish35]

Lol.

edited to delete the rest of my ranting.:)

Edited February 7, 2017 by Starfish35

[EmilyBettFan]

KC had racy photos of herself leaked by someone.

[kismet]

13 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Why didn't they give her a more "athletic" job if she was to be BC? We're they aiming for the Rachel Dawes character by making her a lawyer?

Do you guys know if she was always meant to be BC or just the love interest? 

Her BC origin story was silly right up there with Mr Terrible Curtis! They should have tried harder! Even Thea was off to be trained by Malcolm who was LoA.

I actually didn't mind her being a lawyer. I thought it might make sense to have someone on the inside. Also MG has experience writing & living lawyers, so write what you know. I've been saying they should have tried harder for years. I'm not a huge fan of KC's acting style, but my biggest issue was the writing. I can say that KC is not a great actress.... but her material was crap and her origin story was an afterthought.

And some people will blame KC for not being as good a stunt actress as others. But frankly, I could have gotten over that if the story and the characterization had supported that LL was capable of being an in the field action hero. However, nothing in the story supported that. She did some self-defense & boxing classes. At that rate, just about anyone can wear the mask. Go to any university after a rape. Not to make a comparison, because I think their journeys are different. However the writer fails are similar. FS has been shown to get just about as many boxing lessons on screen and seems to have been training from time to time. So if that is all it takes, than why is MG forbidding FS from ever wearing a mask? The writers have told me and shown me all it takes is boxing lessons and heart. And that formula continued with newbies. So don't now try to tell me it takes something more special to be a success as a masked hero.

And there in lies the problem with the writers. They get these preconceived notions about the characters, that they forget to translate their rationales & reasoning to screens. It's ok for LL to have no official training, but just the heart to be a hero - and we the audience is supposed to buy their song & dance that she is the greatest masked hero on the show. Even by Disney & fairy tale standards, LL's journey fails to be a good origin or hero story. I don't read comics, so BC's legendary martial arts history & training does not immediately translate to the screen just because they gave her the name. They also have been adamant that they are telling their own story, so her being a comic legend is not enough to justify their complete lack of building any infrastructure into the TV character that LL is an action hero. My gut tells me KC was not the best match for the character. But my brain tells me that the majority of the problems with character comes down to writing & BTS shenanigans.

8 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

Common sense, not this shows strong suit. Laurel should've been let in on the secret at the end of S1/beginning of S2 and been training. But thats fanfic world now.

Totally agree that common sense is not the strong suit. I think s2 was the perfect time to let her in on the secret. It would have been too much in s1, since they were keeping the Queens out of the secret. However, the way she found out was ridiculous. I would have preferred a more emotional reveal like Tommy's. Or even wait until s3, when she is wearing the mask herself and make it like SL's reveal. Have LL reveal herself to GA and that is how OQ reveals himself.  There were so  many better ways to do it.

I do think though that she should have been training from before the season premiere. Even if it was just a hobby. Having her never show any interest or time training in martial arts is really unforgivable.

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

MG loves Nolan's Batman so definitely Rachel Dawes.  The problem is that if they were planning on having her become the Black Canary, and everything  says they were at that point, leaving it at "she took self-defense classes because her cop father made her" was wholly inadequate.  One presumes Sara also took those classes but it took five more years with the LoA before she learned adequate Canary fighting skills. At the least they should have said she took martial arts classes for concentration to be better in her studies/law practice as well as for relaxation.

It really seems like the EPs had decided to end Laurel as Oliver's OTP and were looking around for another love interest within the first few episodes of s1, but were they still planning on making her the Black Canary?  In s2 MG and AK said that Sara was part of Laurel's path to becoming the Black Canary but it doesn't make sense to give Sara all the comics BC traits and story knowing they were going to get rid of her after the season.

Agree with most of this post. It goes back to the previous quote that the writers have little common sense. While I do think the taking up mask in honor of her fallen sister was a nice idea. The problem is that LL had no training what so ever. If they had built up her training from the pilot as something she does, then her taking over the mask would have made sense. Instead, you had an untrained person trying to become a masked hero and replace someone who had 5 years of training and years of work experience as a ninja assassin. It just made no sense whatsoever.

The love interest fail was pretty obvious. Although I will admit that I did root for them to reunite in s1. Until it became obvious just how bad they were for each other and how the writers had no intention to write them in a healthy way. Also it became obvious that SA/KC chemistry or anti-chemistry did not lend itself to a romantic love story. People that hate each other, yes. People that have a complicated past, but work together for the greater good, yes. But two people with an undying and enduring love story, nah.

Edited April 11, 2017 by kismet

[statsgirl]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

I think s2 was the perfect time to let her in on the secret. It would have been too much in s1, since they were keeping the Queens out of the secret. However, the way she found out was ridiculous. I would have preferred a more emotional reveal like Tommy's. Or even wait until s3, when she is wearing the mask herself and make it like SL's reveal. Have LL reveal herself to GA and that is how OQ reveals himself. 

Not letting her in on the secret to me shows the love/hate thing they had with the character of Laurel.  They had to have her become the Black Canary but dammit, they were not going to let her into their A story before they had to.  They didn't even want to do an emotional reveal as they did with Tommy, Moira, Sara and Thea.

I don't think they could have waited until she was wearing the mask herself though.  If it was ridiculous to join Team Arrow with a handful of boxing lessons with all the team support and tech and training they had, how much more ridiculous would it have been to go alone after criminals with the same handful of boxing lessons?  She would have been bound to fail even worse than Rene  or Curtis.

ETA:  Here's a possible fix they could have done -- if they weren't going to have Laurel take martial arts since childhood or because she wanted to defend herself working in the dangerous Glades in s1, she could have seen the masked woman in black taking down perps and been inspired to train herself because she thought it was a good idea to be able to defend herself for reasons.  Instead they had her go from 0 to 60 in a matter of months.

Edited April 11, 2017 by statsgirl

[Midnight Lullaby]

I think the problem is that they found a better story: OTA. Originally it was supposed to be all about Oliver/Laurel/Tommy but that plan was abandoned and after that they struggled to find Laurel a place in the new plan. The moment she stopped having an unique role in Oliver's life because they couldn't sell her as his LI she stopped being relevant..from that moment forward she didn't have a connection to him that only she could have and the show was all about Oliver's journey..

[statsgirl]

Her unique role still could have been "You catch 'em, I cook 'em" working in tandem with Oliver to put the perps behind bars but the writers were never interested in doing that.