Laurel Lance: Black Canary, Black Siren.

[EmeraldArcher]

I honestly thought I was being too critical by bringing it up but I'm glad someone else noticed it too!

So relieved I'm not the only one! Wonderwall, I think we're destined to be great friends! :-)

[wonderwall]

So relieved I'm not the only one! Wonderwall, I think we're destined to be great friends! :-)

 

I'm not sure you could handle that ;) 

 

*high five*

[Starfish35]

So......Laurel in Corto Maltese. Let's just say, after last week, I wasn't expecting good things. But I was a little surprised.

I'm not saying it was good. That first scene with Ted Grant was really obnoxious. And we can just insert that Oliver "Oh Laurel" gif in here for my reaction to her going to beat that guy up up with a baseball bat. And the fire thing is stupid.

But on the whole, I found her reactions this episode a little more understandable than last episode, for some reason. And honestly, I think there was a setup here (I think unintentionally) for what could have actually been a really interesting arc for Laurel. Because Laurel is going off the deep end here. It's in almost every scene. And if the writers had had the guts to actually let play that out all the way.....to have her seriously go dark and off the rails? I actually think that might have been something interesting to see. But they don't. This is all played as part of her hero journey, rather than what it looks like to me, which is the beginning of a slide into a dark place. And that's where, just like always with Laurel, the disconnect comes between what I'm seeing on screen and what the writers are trying to say.

Even with her drug and alcohol arc last season, they never went all that dark with her. They could have gone a lot of places with that, but the whole thing was handled very superficially. The worst thing that happened was losing her job, but then she got it back five episodes later.

I guess Corto Maltese just made me think about the potential of what Laurel's season could have been like if they'd actually played out Laurel going off the deep end, instead of just using it as a plot device to force her toward the BC costume.

Edited June 12, 2015 by Starfish35

[SmallScreenDiva]

Thought this would be interesting in light of conversations in the Relationships thread: Laura Hurley on whether Arrow needs Laurel Lance/Black Canary

[dtissagirl]

Wow, thanks for the link. I hadn't read that, but it seems Laura Hurley and I are sharing the same wavelength. I like being validated about my opinions on fictional characters, so. Yay. :)

[pootlus]

Thought this would be interesting in light of conversations in the Relationships thread: Laura Hurley on whether Arrow needs Laurel Lance/Black Canary

I can’t say that I’ve ever finished an episode and thought to myself, “It could have used more Laurel.”

Happy to admit I laughed like a drain at that.

[wingster55]

I've thought that often..I say she gets a spinoff with Gail Simone writing.

I often think that the show has continually taken the easy way out with Laurel instead of developing her over the course of several seasons. I don't know who to blame. I sometimes equate her to Britta Perry on Community..both characters weren't liked because they were perceived as sucking any fun of the show...but in Britta's case she developed amazingly over the course of two seasons (before Dan Harmon made her as dumb as rocks) while the writers didn't get discouraged by the lack of fan response. In fact I would call her the show's MVP. But I digress. 

[apinknightmare]

It's too bad Gail Simone wouldn't touch Arrow with a ten foot pole (<== not sarcasm). She would weep at the mess they've made of Dinah/Laurel, assuming she hasn't already. She says she hasn't ever watched Arrow, but I can't tell if that's her being diplomatic or not. She could maybe turn Laurel around and make her kind of awesome, but she'd definitely have to take her to a new show (and away from Oliver) for that to happen. Which would work, since she hates Oliver, haha.

Edited June 18, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Laura Hurley makes a number of good points. I like how she divides up the roles Laurel plays -- as an individual, as the Black Canary and as a lawyer.  I agree with her that Laurel is most useful on the show as a lawyer (something a number of us have been saying for a while) rather than 'least competent muscle'.  It's too bad that the one role the writers of Arrow want to have her being the least is the one the show as a whole most needs.

[tv echo]

jbuffyangel's meta on Laurel - as I've said before, I disagree that Sara was the great love of Laurel's life (it just wasn't shown that way on screen)...

 

THE LL VERDICT
JUNE 20, 2015 @ 02:52
http://jbuffyangel.tumblr.com/post/121985437453/the-ll-verdict

[Starfish35]

I also disagree with that. I don't think there's anything on screen that supports that. I can see how the argument could be made that Laurel's journey is more tied to Sara than to Oliver (not saying I agree necessarily - I'd have to think about it - but I see how the argument could be made). But I don't think anything supports Sara being the love of Laurel's life.

I also disagree with her that KC is a good cryer. I can't think of a single crying scene of hers that I've ever liked. To me they all seem very forced and fake (the one at the end of the Dollmaker episode always stands out to me, also the one in season one where Dinah admits she knew Sara was going on the boat). But that's going to be a matter of personal preference and opinion I guess.

About Laurel being better as a lawyer (this isn't necessarily to do with jbuffyangel's meta, more with something I was thinking about after reading Laura Hurley's)......

From the standpoint of Laurel's legal "expertise" being the only thing she brings to the table that isn't already provided by someone else on the show.....I get that. I totally get that. My problem is that I find Laurel as lawyer very nearly as intolerable as Laurel as BC. Personally, KC's attempts to play badass lawyer always come across to me as totally obnoxious. The scene with Ray in Suicidal Tendancies was possibly the only time I've liked her as a lawyer this season, and maybe even last. Now maybe if she was just a minor recurring character that showed up now and then to provide legal services for the team? *shrug* Ok. But she's not. She's a main cast member. And I don't have any more interest in them trying to find legal things for Laurel to do each episode than I do watching her run around in her clown BC costume. *sigh*

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

There is a conversation going on in Behind the Scenes concerning Laurel, I'm not bringing specific posts over but adding my two cents.

 

I'm a fan of specific roles of KC. I enjoyed her on Harper's Island. She wasn't remarkable on SPN. I don't remember much but I don't recall hating her enough so maybe she didn't make an impression. 

 

Which came first the chicken or the egg - bad writing or KC's inferior acting? 

 

Laurel's writing isn't great. It also isn't in the hands of an actress who can elevate the material. SA improved removing Felicity's glasses or checking Felicity's roots. EBR improved mimicking Oliver's nervous twitch. They know their characters and what will elevate the material. KC can't hide her personal feelings on being handed a leather jacket. KC is an actress who needs specific direction. You can't tell her to hit her mark and she'll infuse the dialogue with essence of Laurel. She hits her mark and spews her lines. It also doesn't help she has a resting bitch face. I think the resting bitch face also skews her con appearances. She's either phony in trying to be pleasant or she looks like she doesn't want to be there. 

 

Let's change a few of Laurel's scenes which might have improved upon her first impressions. 

Pilot:

Laurel walks into a conference room where the CNRI crew is watching breaking news Oliver Queen isn't dead. Instead of Laurel turning off the TV on the other dozen people in the room, a coworker turns it off as quickly as possible. Laurel leaves the room with tears in her eyes and leans against a hallway wall as she begins to sob.

Tommy brings Oliver to see Laurel. Laurel bitches at Oliver. She turns watery eyes to Tommy and asks in a betrayed voice if he expected it to go differently. 

 

The impressions from Laurel's first few episodes were mostly negative because she made everything about her and there wasn't anything in her story line for the audience to feel sympathy for. While Laurel might have had a rough time of it after Sara's death, the audience knew Oliver was in hell - literally. The odds were stacked against Laurel. She needed to be sympathetic and not super B. Ending the season screwing Oliver while her bed was still warm from Tommy didn't help either. S2 did her no favors either and it set up a complete lack of realness for her supposed heartbreak with Sara's final death. 

. 

Had KC gone for more than one emotion in any of her intro scenes Laurel might not be so polarizing. Some of the audience felt she was justified in her bitchiness. Some of the audience felt she was just a bitch. Others only saw the complete lack of chemistry with SA. The list goes on and on. 

 

Sadly for Laurel and KC it doesn't matter which came first the chicken or the egg. It ended up as road kill when the chicken tried to cross the road. They've attempted to scrape it off the pavement and serve it as part of a five course meal, but it tastes and smells like road kill.

 

[kismet]

Road kill is a delicassy in some areas, so if they must continue to serve it up - I hope they are able to better serve/prepare it in s4. If not, please not continue to put it on the menu.

[bethy]

It's really too bad they didn't have Laurel be evil. I've been binge-watching Nikita (thanks, 12 Monkeys), and there's something about Melinda Clarke's calculating delivery that reminds me a lot of Katie Cassidy's. It works for manipulative psychopath, but not so much for lawyerly do-gooder.

[kismet]

It's really too bad they didn't have Laurel be evil. I've been binge-watching Nikita (thanks, 12 Monkeys), and there's something about Melinda Clarke's calculating delivery that reminds me a lot of Katie Cassidy's. It works for manipulative psychopath, but not so much for lawyerly do-gooder.

Laurel as evil would be interesting... but some of her fans may not take it as well... But KC does seem to have that ability to play calculating & frosty.

I would love to see her working with someone evil though and use her relationship to really flip the tables on the evil person. Like Blood, but bigger, esp now that she is BC. (TBH, I would like to see her initially duped by the evil person, but that's just my opinion/hope I'm not expecting the show to be beholden to it).

 

**Melinda Clarke though would make a fabulous female villain!! Was a huge fan of her on Nikita & the OC. Perhaps they could snag her :)**

[Chaser]

Dumping the destiny theme meant the show had to also backtrack the idea that anyone who knew Oliver pre-island would become "his people" in present time. The relationships influencing Oliver's hero's journey would not be the ones from his past, because the idea that someone had seen something ~more~ in him before Lian Yu was tossed. It helped that Raisa was was gone from the show after the pilot, and it also helped that every pre-island flashback reinforced the idea that Oliver was a womanizing  entitled brat with little to no redeeming qualities. There was no hero hiding under that pile of douche.

 

Enter the new people, Diggle and Felicity. Who not only didn't know pre-island Oliver -- so they come to the narrative without preconceptions of him -- but they both also quickly learn the truth about Oliver in present time. They become "his people" by seeing him in the present as a much truer self than the one he showed old friends and family, and by making the choice to join his crusade with eyes open. No fate, no destiny, no "I always knew you were meant for greatness", nothing even remotely ~meant to be~. Dig and Felicity both see Oliver's flaws *as a vigilante* from the get go, and that is what kickstarts the evolution from Hood to Arrow [to Green Arrow]. And so, what fueled Oliver's hero journey post pilot wasn't destiny. It was the actions and relationships he built in present time with his team, that got him from killer to vigilante to hero, all showed instead of told, and with not a hint of ~written on the stars~ in sight.

 

Which is how I happen to like my hero's journeys, please and thank you.

This is where Laurel's hero journey fall apart for me. I completely agree they dropped the "destiny" from Oliver's journey. I would say it stopped being about his "destiny" to be Green Arrow and it became about his "evolution" to Green Arrow. I think that adjustment also extended to Thea and Roy. For one reason or another, the wink-wink-nudge-nudge that they gave Thea at the start of the S1 decreased greatly. So when both Roy and Thea were named, it meant something.

 

I feel they didn't extend that courtesy to Laurel. She still got the "destiny" journey. The huge anvils throughout the season, her line in the flashbacks about always heading towards a mask, in the 2.5. comics about getting her own mask. Ignoring the contradiction of also trying to sell she was honoring her sister, "destiny" should never be used to fill in the blanks of her story. Or any story. It's a cheat. IMO. 

 

Edited because I hate being on mobile.

Edited July 31, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[kismet]

The destiny angle might have worked if they hadn't brought in SL to essentially be the Canary for a 1.5 seasons. (I say 1.5, because even though SL was off for most of s3, her presence as the Canary was still felt). The writers gave us a full fledge Canary complete with tragic backstory, heroic aspirations but hampered by self-thoughts. It really felt like it was SL's destiny to become Canary and then they pulled a bait & switch to place LL in the destined role. They should have kept more along the evolution to hero theme that worked for everyone else on Arrow.

 

Show us how LL goes from being a frustrated lawyer to vigilante, who was inspired along the way by the sacrifices & tragedies of losing both her boyfriend & sister (x2). It would have been more believable. It also would have been more belivable that as part of her recovery from her addiction, she decided to take up martial arts & that might have also been part of the reason she chose to use those skills to help others, especially if she was facing disbarment.  But like so many have pointed out in this forum & other sites, there are so many ways they could have executed LL's hero journey. It honestly makes me shake my head at times when I think about how they say they planned it all out and then this is what they gave us. Its like they went grocery shopping and bought the most amazing condiments, but completely forgot to buy the ingredients for the main course.

[BkWurm1]

This quote is from KC in an interview posted on GATV

I also think that Andrew Kreisberg made a good point: He said Laurel will always… sees the light at the end of the tunnel,” as opposed to Oliver who can get into dark place. Laurel always tries to see the positive in everything,

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this statement. Anyone care to give me some examples of Laurel always seeing the positive? All I can think of is when she told Sara that since her LoA name sounded pretty, Sara couldn't be all that bad of a person, but I always found that statement more painfully and willfully naïve than an example of positivity.

Really, this is a sincere request. I am quite willing to believe because Laurel bugs me, I do not recall any examples of her positive attitude.

I posted this request over at the site that shall not be named twice and all I got was "she's not a serial killer" and a comment about how what she said to Sara was not about positivity but being nice to her sister.

Can we do better or is Kreisberg just totally off his rocker?

Edited July 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[lexicon]

This quote is from KC in an interview posted on GATV

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this statement. Anyone care to give me some examples of Laurel always seeing the positive? All I can think of is when she told Sara that since her LoA name sounded pretty, Sara couldn't be all that bad of a person, but I always found that statement more painfully and willfully naïve than an example of positivity.

Really, this is a sincere request. I am quite willing to believe because Laurel bugs me, I do not recall any examples of her positive attitude.

I posted this request over at the site that shall not be named twice and all I got was "she's not a serial killer" and a comment about how what she said to Sara was not about positivity but being nice to her sister.

Can we do better or is Kreisberg just totally off his rocker?

 

I think when it comes to LL and KC's portrayal of her, Kreisberg is, as always rocking blinders, or maybe it's me because the LL he describes is not the one I've ever seen on screen. IMO this description of her is right up there with 'she's a hero because she gets knocked down but she keeps getting right back up' (repeated ad nauseam) or claims that she's the only one who challenges Oliver when anyone who looked at the show will be able to supply 3 seasons of worth of evidence to the contrary. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by lexicon

[dtissagirl]

I feel they didn't extend that courtesy to Laurel. She still got the "destiny" journey. The huge anvils throughout the season, her line in the flashbacks about always heading towards a mask, in the 2.5. comics about getting her own mask. Ignoring the contradiction of also trying to sell she was honoring her sister, "destiny" should never be used to fill in the blanks of her story. Or any story. It's a cheat. IMO.

 

My guess is that Kreisberg really really REALLY wanted to tell a DESTINY superhero story, so much so that he got an entire new show to do just exactly that? The difference being that Flash allows for a destiny theme to be subverted via time-travel and other shenanigans, and that the more whimsical tone of that show really helps to sell the more esoteric aspects of ~written in the stars~ [or, you know, written in a newspaper headline from the future].

 

But they nixed DESTINY from Oliver, and kept if for Laurel. Because Kreisberg? Because comics? A little bit of both?

 

Destiny storylines also demand a lot of telling instead of showing. Flash is a good example too -- the first person to tell Barry he was destined is actually Oliver, in the Flash pilot. The whole thing about that lightning being meant for Barry. But then they also did the showing part, by creating the character of Dr. Wells, who sure, was telling Barry he was meant for greatness, but since he was from the future, we in the audience were shown that Barry had a meant-to-be destiny.

 

I think the problem with Laurel is less in Laurel herself, but the fact that ~meant to be~ stories demand this kind of setting up that Barry got. Laurel didn't get any of that. Nobody was telling her she was meant to be anything, much less the story was showing she had a destiny. They minimized Laurel's presence all around in S2, when they should have been setting up her destiny storyline. Instead, all we got was the repeated "always trying to save the world" line. Not much else.

[tangerine95]

I'm trying to think of examples of Laurel being positive and really don't have any.Maybe in season 1 with Tommy?But I can't think of a specific scene.

And I agree in that scene with Sara she sounded naive and IMO stupid for saying that.

It's most of likely another example of the writers and KC seeing Laurel completely different then she is on the actual show.

[Sakura12]

The Laurel the EP's keep describing sounds like a much better character than the one we get on the show. That still brings it down to is it the acting or the writing that's giving us a different version? I still think that if we had a different actress playing Laurel we might've had a different outcome. Take Iris on the Flash, season 1 has ended and she's another terribly written character but I like Candice and want them to do better with Iris (it helps that CP feels the same way). Then at the same time at the end of season 1 of Arrow, I wanted Laurel to die instead of Tommy and found her a useless character. And that was before Sara showed up, after that Laurel was completely unnecessary and could've left the show without making a single difference in the narrative. 

 

As for the couples I'm not a fan of Barry/Iris but I can at least see the love there. While they don't always treat each other well. I get that they care about one another. I got nothing like that from Oliver/Laurel, I got contempt and whiplash with Laurel's constantly changing opinion on Oliver or in Oliver's case indifference. Which may have been worse. Oliver looked like he barely cared about Laurel at all. She seemed like a co-worker you say hi too at work. If something happened to them, you'd feel bad like any person would. But it wouldn't effect your day to day life. I believed Oliver cared more about McKenna and Helena then he did about Laurel. 

[tangerine95]

The writers don't know what to do with Laurel and how to write her into the story.Something I believe will only get worse now that they made her BC in less then a season.I actually interested to see what they're going to do with her after her storyline with Sara is done.

A lot of the failure of Laurel is on KC because she has a way of making everything Laurel says sound rude,angry,cold or entitled.

The lack of chemistry with SA is so bad,there's no fixing that.They're not even convincing as people who like each other.

[Sakura12]

The writers don't know what to do with Laurel and how to write her into the story.Something I believe will only get worse now that they made her BC in less then a season.I actually interested to see what they're going to do with her after her storyline with Sara is done.

 

Since Laurel is once again being used to set up Sara's story. I wonder if it will be like season 2 where Laurel was a small, not really that important part of Sara's story instead of the other way around. That's what made me think that Sara was more important to the show than her.  I almost think they hate the Laurel character because last season they pretty much tried to copy Sara's story with Laurel. That's some lazy, unimaginative writing. She's not even her own character, she's a copy of a better character that was created after her.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

I think the intent was to parallel Laurel's journey to Sara's journey. They do love their parallelism after all. But it came out Single White Female by accident/incompetence instead.

[Chaser]

Laurel was set up as the second Black Canary. She didn't earn the name Canary. Sara did. Laurel just took it with the mask. "Destiny" becomes Single White Female. 

 

Really if any Lance got the destined-to-be story, it was Sara.

 

I vote incompetence on the part of the writers. They tripped all over themselves to get to the finish line.

[tangerine95]

Since Laurel is once again being used to set up Sara's story. I wonder if it will be like season 2 where Laurel was a small, not really that important part of Sara's story instead of the other way around. That's what made me think that Sara was more important to the show than her.  I almost think they hate the Laurel character because last season they pretty much tried to copy Sara's story with Laurel. That's some lazy, unimaginative writing. She's not even her own character, she's a copy of a better character that was created after her.

That's what I think will happen.IMO they were hoping the BC arc would go over much better with the audience then it did.That's why Sara is coming back.Well and so they could get the spinoff Ray couldn't sell on his own.But bringing her back makes Laurel whole arc in season 3 pointless.When Sara is back she just looks like a crazy person who took her costume and added buckles on it and took her name and added black in front of it.Forever lol at the mess they made of Laurel.

[AyChihuahua]

She was really seeing the light at the end of the tunnel when she was all drunk and high on her daddy's stolen Percocet in S2.  You mean y'all didn't see how optimistic and cheerful in the face of adversity she was then?

 

Utterly ridiculous thing for KC/Kreisberg to say.  They obviously have no idea what Laurel is even about, meaning they're never going to fix her.  But whatevs, in S4 I'm hoping for enough good stuff that I can FF her scenes and Ray the Toad's scenes.  (I feel really bad calling Ray a toad, because toads are actually awesome.  Maybe Ray the Asian Carp?  Something really destructive that worms its way into an environment in which is does not belong and then destroys that environment.  Ooh, maybe Ray the Cane Toad, specifically?)

[EmilyBettFan]

There are many things that irk me with fans of Laurel and one of them is the whole "she stands up to Oliver like no one else." LOL or how they made Oliver hear two different speeches with Felicity saying how he helped her be more than just some IT girl. Laurel saying she "I know you like I know my name" or some shit like that. Where Felicity is talking about how he is helping people like her, Laurel is talking about herself once again. That's why this character never works. It's always me, me, me.

[Menrva]

 But whatevs, in S4 I'm hoping for enough good stuff that I can FF her scenes and Ray the Toad's scenes.  (I feel really bad calling Ray a toad, because toads are actually awesome.  Maybe Ray the Asian Carp?  Something really destructive that worms its way into an environment in which is does not belong and then destroys that environment.  Ooh, maybe Ray the Cane Toad, specifically?)

Zebra mussels. They're awful and you can't even eat them. Or Starbucks?

 

Seriously, I'd like to know what light Laurel sees at the end of the tunnel. The only tunnel I'm interested in is the one that takes Laurel and KC far, far away from Arrow. Laurel is all about surfaces: much like her costume, it only reflects the brightness surrounding it and generates no light of its own. There's no depth there. Sorry, that's just how I see it.

[EmilyBettFan]

Menrva I totally agree with you!

[NumberCruncher]

I think the intent was to parallel Laurel's journey to Sara's journey. They do love their parallelism after all. But it came out Single White Female by accident/incompetence instead.

^This 100%. I could see what the writers/producers were trying to do, but in keeping with Arrow's grand tradition of incompetent story development, they failed miserably at it. Much in the same way that their intended hero trajectory for Ray Palmer fizzled out and instead made him come off looking like a poor man's Oliver Queen with stalkerish tendencies, their BC origin story was meant to be organic and just ended up looking forced and awkward. This is why they made a huge mistake bringing Sara in back in S2. All that did was guarantee that the audience would forevermore be forced to compare the two.

The much smarter thing to do would have been to use Laurel's grief over Tommy's death at the end of S1 to start Laurel's BC trajectory instead of creating such a weird addiction storyline. Had she started with that slow transition starting early S2 with her taking up the full BC identity towards the end of S3, I think the audience would have accepted a lot better than it did watching her box for 3 episodes, hang out with Nyssa a couple of times, and then start jumping out of windows and beating up trained assasins.

I know I'll always part ways with most posters on this board, but I don't blame KC at all for this mess of a character. She was merely cast as a character the showrunners simply had absolutely no idea how to write for and it painfully shows. I don't think even the most skilled actor could have elevated it, TBH.

Edited July 31, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[kismet]

There are many things that irk me with fans of Laurel and one of them is the whole "she stands up to Oliver like no one else." LOL or how they made Oliver hear two different speeches with Felicity saying how he helped her be more than just some IT girl. Laurel saying she "I know you like I know my name" or some shit like that. Where Felicity is talking about how he is helping people like her, Laurel is talking about herself once again. That's why this character never works. It's always me, me, me.

This bothers me too because its barely LL that stands up to OQ. FS has from s1 both before & after she knew he was the Arrow. Dig has done it on multiple occasions. RH & TQ have had a few moments, as well. In s1, I could see LL standing up more to OQ in a productive manner. But still itw as Dig & FS that stood up to him on multiple occasions and he actually listened to what they said. I can't think of any times when LL made a stand against OQ, and OQ was like yes that's a good Idea I see what you mean. As s2 & s3 progressed, LL did stand up to OQ more, but it was like an insolent child fighting against them. It was productive & motivational confrontation. It was selfish whining & bickering. I really do try to see LL as a selfless person, but all of that disappeared after s1. Once they moved her out of the LI spot, she no longer kept any glimmer of that selflessness.

 

As for LL always looking for the positive and seeing the light as opposed to the dark. I can't really find any examples of that after mid s1, and even in early s1 it would be a stretch to say that her motivations was always seeing the positive in situations. This I think is a combination of acting & writing. But I tend to blame it more on writing. Since it is in script that when both her ex-boyfriend & sister returned from the dead, rather than be happy they were alive. She immediately attacked them with anger & hatred, wishing that they had essentially stayed dead on multiple occasions. That's not always look on the bright side of life persona. Yes she had valid reasons to be angry with them. But if you've ever loved someone & they returned from the dead, your first responses should be happiness for them that they are no longer dead. I always imagine the melodramatic hug then face slap that you see in movies/tv.

 

Dig is a perfect example of this seeing beyond your anger to respect the love/closeness that you once shared. in s3 finale, when he is utterly & rightly pissed at OQ before he walks away he says to OQ that he deserves to be happy despite everything. That is someone that can look past his own anger & see positivity. There have never been inscript moments like that for LL and KC has never portrayed that through her non-verbal acting. OQ did not have many in-script reasons to express his longing/guilt/hurt, but his happy & sad puppy eyes have made numerous visits (esp in s3) when the script failed to verbalize just how OQ was truly feeling. That is on SA & his acting choices. These are just 2 examples of both inscript & acting choices that compensated for when the characterization was getting lost in translation.

 

There are many other examples using other Arrow actors/characters. However, I can't think of any inscript or acting choice that compensated for some of the imbalance to LL's character. The only one I can think of is the inscript LL "always saving the world", but there isn't a whole lot of evidence to back up that claim esp. after they destroyed CNRI, nearly disbarred her and chose to have her blackmail her way back into the legal system. Even her training in the Wildcat gym felt like she blackmailed her way into getting Grant to train her. She essentially weaseled her way into her sister's suit and onto a fighting role on TA. There has NOT been a whole lot of LL's character development in s2 & s3 that felt on the up & up. It was a whole lot of wheeling & dealing, with her manipulating her way. The possibly selfless, but emotionally compromised LL from s1 no longer existed after they killed Tommy & CNRI. Its like everything that could have possibly used LL as a looking for the positive character got destroyed & left in that rubble.

 

But in all fairness to LL, I will say that the one trait that she has yet failed to lose is her perseverance. She is like those groundhogs in the arcade game. They keep on getting whacked down and yet they always pop back up. So I will give LL that, she's got perseverance going for her. Problem is eventually the quarters run out and the game ends. I just wonder when the writers will eventually run out of quarters, because it seems like her storyline is not going as well as they might have imagined.

Edited July 31, 2015 by kismet

[Chaser]

I have no doubt that Laurel was supposed to be the heart of the show. I think KC took that as one her character's defining traits. Much like everything else from the pilot, KC has not adjusted her viewpoint.

 

I wish I was working PR for the show and have a sit down with her. I would use words like driven, aggressive, bull-headed. Give your character layers and talk about the positives and negatives of her presonality and how it relates to her story. 

 

I swear whenever I read an interview of hers I rewrite her answers.

[kismet]

^This 100%. I could see what the writers/producers were trying to do, but in keeping with Arrow's grand tradition of incompetent story development, they failed miserably at it. Much in the same way that their intended hero trajectory for Ray Palmer fizzled out and instead made him come off looking like a poor man's Oliver Queen with stalkerish tendencies, their BC origin story was meant to be organic and just ended up looking forced and awkward. This is why they made a huge mistake bringing Sara in back in S2. All that did was guarantee that the audience would forevermore be forced to compare the two.

The much smarter thing to do would have been to use Laurel's grief over Tommy's death at the end of S1 to start Laurel's BC trajectory instead of creating such a weird addiction storyline. Had she started with that slow transition starting early S2 with her taking up the full BC identity towards the end of S3, I think the audience would have accepted a lot better than it did watching her box for 3 episodes, hang out with Nyssa a couple of times, and then start jumping out of windows and beating up trained assasins.

I know I'll always part ways with most posters on this board, but I don't blame KC at all for this mess of a character. She was merely cast as a character the showrunners simply had absolutely no idea how to write for and it painfully shows. I don't think even the most skilled actor could have elevated it, TBH.

Totally agree that they should have started more of the origin story in s2 after Tommy, esp if it was supposed to be destiny. Bringing in Sara into the present, was just a bad idea, esp when they went so deep into letting SL truly become the Canary both in physicality & story.

 

I will say that I blame the writers for the majority of the mess that is LL. Although, I will say that KC's acting choices have not helped to compensate for some of their missteps. I think Candice Patton from FLASH is a good example of where her acting choices have compensated for some of the writing deficits. KC has not brought those acting choices to the table that make LL more like the character they keep on describing. I think some of her acting choices have almost gone the opposite way and brought more of a modern-day anti-hero power bitch that is all the trend these days. And honestly, that is fine to make those acting choices. But don't spin around and try to sell LL as this always looking towards the positive, its just inaccurate. When they had moments between Helena & LL about letting the darkness in, I thought of this is where you're going with the character. She is somehow going to claw her way out of addiction & darkness, try to help people but always have a more vicious & cold approach. So now in s3, it feels like misfirings & misconnections on all ends. We are supposed to see LL as this great heroic & selfless force/beacon of hope. But that's not always what the script says &  then her performance contradicts it when the script might actually be trying to do that.

 

Will I ever think that KC is the best actress on Arrow? No. But I did enjoy her in s1 and I do think she has some acting strengths. The problem is that her acting  strengths do not align with what TPTB keep on trying to tell us how LL in interviews. And both in-script & her acting choices have made it difficult to really understand or appreciate her character as she stands right now in the Arrowverse. SL as a more competent fighter & Canary only complicates the situation. I find myself wondering more how I can fix her character, rather than enjoying what could possibly happen for her in the future. I don't begrudge her a spot in the Arrowverse, but there are times when I look around & wonder why is she still here? Shouldn't she be some other place or playing a different role. Let's face it the scripts for s3 were pretty bad for most of the characters, but the actors compensated for the gaps. Heck even CH made RH a more dimensional character from the crappy scripts he was given.

 

Where I will fault KC is that her acting does not always compensate for these gaps in quality writing. No script or writing team is going to be perfect, there will always be weak & crappy writing from time to time. But an actor should be able to make his/her character not fall down miserably in these writing holes. I don't feel like KC does that consistently. Even her work with PB, which generally is her stronger and more likable work, was not that good this season. When the writers forced angst & separation between the characters due to the lying over SL, at no point did KC make LL empathetic or even villainous in her acting choices. You felt every moment of pain from PB because he projected his suffering and made us feel it. KC just made us shake our heads at her characters inability to get it together on so many levels, but it spurned more apathy or just beaten down acceptance that it is what it is.

Edited July 31, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

He said Laurel will always… sees the light at the end of the tunnel,”

I think it's that Laurel always thinks she knows the right thing to do, or she can fix things, or that she knows better than anyone else.  She's positive she can take on Sara's mantle even though everyone, from Ted Grant to Diggle to Oliver, tells her she's not trained enough; she's positive the right thing to do is to hide Sara's death from Quentin.

 

AK may see this as being positive; I see it as part of her narcissism.

Edited July 31, 2015 by statsgirl

[tv echo]

This quote is from KC in an interview posted on GATV

I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around this statement. Anyone care to give me some examples of Laurel always seeing the positive? All I can think of is when she told Sara that since her LoA name sounded pretty, Sara couldn't be all that bad of a person, but I always found that statement more painfully and willfully naïve than an example of positivity.

Really, this is a sincere request. I am quite willing to believe because Laurel bugs me, I do not recall any examples of her positive attitude.

I posted this request over at the site that shall not be named twice and all I got was "she's not a serial killer" and a comment about how what she said to Sara was not about positivity but being nice to her sister.

Can we do better or is Kreisberg just totally off his rocker?

If you want to watch the video of KC saying this (but don't want to visit GATV), it's part of her media interview during SDCC 2015 press roundtables and is posted as a TV Equals video on page 165 of the Behind the Mask thread.

Edited August 1, 2015 by tv echo

[BkWurm1]

I ended up also posing my question in the comment section over on GreenArrowTV under the KC interview. (Again pretty much the same thing I said here) and I got a reply from Craig pretty much agreeing the characterization seemed off.   This is what he said. 

 

I actually don’t think we’ve seen that side of Laurel on the show yet, or if anything, it’s been implied but unseen.

 

I suppose in season one it was implied when Oliver makes that claim that Laurel always saw the man he could become or something like that.  I wonder when AK made the comment that KC was quoting.  I have a hard time believing she'd quote something he said three years ago. 

[Chaser]

There is a video from SDCC 2012 where she talks about Laurel. I could have sworn she uses the same language.

[Starfish35]

AK has always had a little bit of a....well, different view of Laurel. He's the one who said in season two that people didn't like Laurel because she hadn't put on the costume yet, and he's also the one that made that infamous comment comparing Oliver and Laurel to Lois and Clark.

It's the main reason I've never been too sad that he's not on Arrow anymore, much as there's been issues with MG's writing/showrunning. I don't think AK would have been quite as willing to let go of Lauriver as MG has been.

Edited August 2, 2015 by Starfish35

[BkWurm1]

AK has always had a little bit of a....well, different view of Laurel. He's the one who said in season two that people didn't like Laurel because she hadn't put on the costume yet, and he's also the one that made that infamous comment comparing Oliver and Laurel to Lois and Clark.

It's the main reason I've never been too sad that he's not on Arrow anymore, much as there's been issues with MG's writing/showrunning. I don't think AK would have been quite as willing to let go of Lauriver as MG has been.

He still has a strong voice in shaping the series though. 

[kismet]

The opposite of love is not hate its apathy. Hate implies that you actually care enough to feel an emotion. I think the radio silence, the apathy & the lack of really trying to make an effort is perhaps the worst thing for a character. At the end of the day it seems like less and less people really care to figure why LL is there or what her purpose is. That's not a promising place for any character, comic destiny or not.

[dtissagirl]

It's still weird, though, because apathy generally translates into characters being written out. And Laurel's had bouts of apathetic reactions before, and yet she's still hanging in there. [because comics? Because contract? Because WHY?]

 

The way they structured her character arcs in S2 and S3 confirm to me that they don't really want to spotlight Laurel that much: they give her a bunch of episodes there in the middle of the season to advance her characterization, but mostly leave her out of the big moments. It's SUPER WEIRD writing all over.

Edited August 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[tangerine95]

It's still weird, though, because apathy generally translates into characters being written out. And Laurel's had bouts of apathetic reactions before, and yet she's still hanging in there. [because comics? Because contract? Because WHY?]

 

The way they structured her character arcs in S2 and S3 confirm to me that they don't really want to spotlight Laurel that much: they give her a bunch of episodes there in the middle of the season to advance her characterization, but mostly leave her out of the big moments. It's SUPER WEIRD writing all over.

I'm honestly starting to believe that KC just has an amazing contract.At the start of the season I thought maybe they  really like Laurel but the way they wrote what was supposed to be her biggest arc on the show doesn't reflect that.They do leave her out of every big moment.In the season 2 finale she was pretty much like an extra getting captured by Slade.In this year's finale she was one of the many masks that had a fight scene.Nothing important that no other character could not have done.  And now they're bringing Sara back and that just makes her whole BC arc pointless. I have no idea what they're even doing with her at all.

[EmilyBettFan]

Just to give a comparison for doing big things in finales. Felicity helped dismantle an earthquake machine in season 1 finale. She cured Slade so he and Oliver could be on equal terms for the fight. Season 3 she saved Oliver from certain death and helped find all of the bio weapons.

I can't think of any big moments Laurel had in any season finale.

Where you saw Felicity helping save people in season 1 finale, you had Laurel staying back in CNRI to become damsel in distress (her own doing as she was told to get out/stay away many times by different people.)

Season 2 damseled again in the finale. While Felicity was scared she held herself and in the background you can hear Laurel's screeching from being held by a goon. Felicity had a sword to her neck. Which is funny because when we learned Slade had Felicity, a goon was holding her and then Slade takes out his sword. Is this the same goon who then has Laurel. So why didn't she try to get away when the goon had Felicity?

Season 3 Finale, Laurel took down one guy and you can't even see her face while she's doing it so most likely a stunt double. If it was Sara you would have seen her face taking down the bad guy.

Edited August 3, 2015 by EmilyBettFan

[Sakura12]

In season 1 Laurel stayed in her office in the glades after everyone repeatedly told her to leave because of the Earthquake machine. Tommy went to save her, dying in the process. In season 2 she was kidnapped by Slade and no one but Quentin cared, then she punched a guy after Sara already got him with the Mirakuru cure and he was passing out. Didn't watch season 3, so I don't know if she did anything. 

[Morrigan2575]

S3 finale she was teamed with Nyssa and took out one of the 4 virus carriers. She also tried and failed to get Lance to help them.

Felicity found the 4 carriers and saved Oliver

Diggle/Thea took out 2 of the 4 carriers

Thea saved Diggle's life (IIRC)

Ray created a way to dispurse the vaccine using his nano tech

Malcolm took out one of the virus carriers.

Oliver fought Ras at the dam

Oliver/Nyssa fought Ras on the plane

Edited August 3, 2015 by Morrigan2575

[wonderwall]

S3 finale she was teamed with Nyssa and took out one of the 4 virus carriers.

Felicity found the 4 carriers and saved Oliver

Diggle/Thea took out 2 of the 4 carriers

Thea saved Diggle's life (IIRC)

Ray created a way to dispurse the vaccine using his nano tech

Malcolm took out one of the virus carriers.

Don't forget, Felicity also talked Quentin into mobilizing his team which was supposed to be Laurel's job. but my memory is a little hazy

[KenyaJ]

Back to the topic, I can't believe that's what they wanted to go with Laurel's first reaction to finding out Oliver's not dead. 

 

This is my problem with her turning off the television. Was it rude? Yes, but so what. Laurel is a rude character, in general. But finding out that moment was the first she'd heard that Oliver was alive blows my mind. If I found out my presumed-dead-for-five-years (ex) boyfriend was actually alive, I would be too stunned to even be able to turn the television off. Given everything Laurel learned about Oliver after his "death," I can understand why happiness wouldn't have been her initial reaction. But being pissed, storming over to turn the television off, and then glaring at your colleagues accusingly is not the initial reaction most people would have to that news, IMO. To this day, I still don't know what the writers, director, and KC were intending to convey with that scene.

[Morrigan2575]

Don't forget, Felicity also talked Quentin into mobilizing his team which was supposed to be Laurel's job. but my memory is a little hazy

she did? I remember Laurel trying to get Lance's support and then yelling at him for drinking. I also remember Lance calling Felicity to warn her Arrow was about to be toast. I don't remember Felicity getting Lance to mobilize but it's totally possible.