Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[kismet]

I think a lot of it will depend on how many seasons Arrow actually goes. I think killing off OQ for real is plausible. A noble & heroic death, to bookend their OQ is a alive. I do believe that GA dying and OQ still living is the perfect balance of them to get both their heroic death and their happy ending. Which is why I think they will go that way. Also it allows them to bring in a new GA at a later date to reboot the show/role with a younger cast.

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, bijoux said:

Sadly, I think the fake death scenario is plausible. It's just not what I want to see here, because I don't think it tracka with the narrative of Oliver learning to be a real boy, one who already was "dead" and then was not really living for a while there even after coming back home. So for me, the right track would be him finall living in both his skins, or alternatively "killing" GA and still be around as Oliver. it certainly doesn't mean that's how it will play out, though.

I'd prefer he and the team continuing on with the fight while at the same time living their lives to the fullest but I'd happily take a fakes death over a real death (as long as Felicity is in on it...hey, he promised never to lie to her again so it's a given, right?)

[kismet]

After reading some of the excerpts from the reviews posted after the Kapushion episode, I really have a hard time believing that OQ was an actual serial killer that actually liked killing people. He killed a lot of people with a specific pattern, so technically he is a serial killer. But psychopathic, sadistic person that sought out people to kill them for pleasure of it does not ring true with anything I've come to know about OQ in all incarnations over the past 5 years. I do believe that he might have enjoyed the hunt, but the killing I don't think was something he liked or craved. I know there was his confession, but I really don't believe that was an actual confession. That was either a a statement he tells himself or just him playing Adrian. This is the same guy who apparently was brainwashed by the LoA and convinced his whole team of loved ones that he was ok with their death in LoA prison.

My point being, OQ has been trained in multiple styles of torture, was a skilled torturer and experienced multiple levels of torture (self-inflicted and done to him) for over half a decade now - so while I think what Adrian did was brutal, I don't think it broke OQ to reveal anything. He just told Adrian what he wanted to hear. It was a extended "safe word". If he had made that confession to Dig, FS, or TQ after a deep heart to heart or a tragic event, then I might have believed it. I think there is some truth in what he revealed to Adrian. I think he was ok with the body count and killing, so to be comfortable with that does require some level of emotional acceptance. I just don't believe that it is the whole truth. I don't believe that OQ likes killing people and that was his motivation for what he did when he returned to SC. He might have been a serial killer, but that was more a technicality than an ideology.

On a sidenote, I think this episode was a short cut to make up for the fact that they had claimed for so long that OQ had become so dark, while failing to show any of that in the flashbacks. So rather than go back and rewrite scenes (which they can't do), they decided to make a big controversial confession with salacious words. They had to get us closer to s1 OQ, and this confession/torture episode was perhaps the only way they could do it. The problem for me is that I always saw OQ in s1 as more PTSD than blind sociopath. But I guess, I can see them trying to say that he was more killer/monster than tragic PTSD victim. However, meeting Dig & FS really did change his life and start him on the healing process whatever they want to call it was haunting him in s1.

[BkWurm1]

I agree that Oliver Queen is not a serial killer in nature, only perhaps by technicality of his actions (same method, similar targets).  The reviewers that tried to claim otherwise were IMO just plain wrong.

But I don't think that Oliver faked his confession to Chase.  I think Oliver can withstand all sorts of physical torture and knew how to separate the drugged illusions from reality with the LoA but Chase strictly went mental torture and we have to assume was constantly for those 6 days telling him how he was going to hurt his loved ones and how easy it would be to do so if Oliver didn't confess.  

I agree that Oliver's confession shouldn't hold the same weight of truth that it would if he'd come to that conclusion while not under such duress but I do believe that at least right now he buys into it because of a kernel of truth to his confession.  

Like you said, he probably did love the hunt and there would be satisfaction in cleaning up the streets and knowing that that one at least wasn't coming back.  But yeah, it's WHY he felt that way that is so important and we clearly saw it came only after years of trauma, training and conditioning and that very soon after he got to Starling City, just by being around those that he could be honest with and who asked him to ask more of himself, he started backing away from even that kernel of truth.  

But I do believe that Oliver was emotionally at a very vulnerable place in season five, more so than even season three. In 5 he'd lost Felicity because of something he did.  In 3, he had to walk away because of circumstances.  I mean, he sunk low enough to date Rayporter so we know how vulnerable and lonely he was, lol.   So I don't think he's playing Chase but I do believe that the extent to how truthful his confession was is up to debate even if I think he believed it when he gave it.  

[statsgirl]

Bringing this over from the spoiler discussion thread:

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think Thea's had enough experience in the business world that she doesn't need business school (I mean, she ran Verdant practically on her own, and she's worked in the Mayor's Office), but if they need to give her something to do, then fine, send her to business school!! Maybe she can fight crime at night! 

 

3 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

I was always a bit iffy that they always made her such an expert in everything that Oliver was doing first. With no experience. 

 

2 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Thea's better in Moira-skills than Oliver is, business, politics, back-room negotiating, how social engagement works.  I fanwank that Oliver is so terrible in running things, including Team Arrow, because he has no interesting in the back-and-forth it takes, and no patience for it.  That's why being a vigilante, especially a lone vigilante, works so well for him -- he can just make a decision and go out and carry it through. No need for consultation or committees.

 

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

Maybe if they let Oliver be good at something other than killing people and disappointing his loved ones he wouldn't hate himself so much. 

I just want him to have a job where he doesn't fail miserably and/or get shown up by his equally as unqualified (even more so because she didn't even attend any colleges to drop out of and has way less life experience) little sister. I try really hard to be proud of Oliver, but these writers make it hard sometimes. 

 

1 hour ago, Mellowyellow said:

I don't think he would be so bad with the business thing and the major thing if insane baddies were not always wreaking havoc in his life and city. 

Even Felicity who is brilliant got fired because she was always running off to save Star City. When she worked for Ray she was always running off as well.

I don't see how any of them can hold down a job at this rate so I don't blame Oliver for being bad at his job. Thea always had the time to run things at the office and even at Verdant.

 

1 hour ago, leopardprint said:

Oliver has mastered the culinary arts.

He is internationally recognized for his skill is disappointing his loved ones though. 

 

1 hour ago, Hiveminder said:

I guess you're right, but it just looks worse with Oliver because, except for that once with Felicity, he's really the only one they've shown trying(and mostly failing) to balance a full-time job and full-time vigilanteing.* They never really showed that Felicity had any problems keeping up with her responsibilities as his EA, and he obviously would have understood if she did, and Digg's job was following Oliver around so being a vigilante had no impact on that. Thea has never been employed full-time and a vigilante full-time concurrently. 

*Except for Laurel, who, as I recall was doing just fine in that regard?  

 

46 minutes ago, leopardprint said:

Oliver's jobs have all been things he feels he should be doing for various reasons. He was basically trying to put out fires at QC (and didn't show up for a month) and ran for mayor because he's hard to kill. They haven't really shown him to have ambition in that regard. He wasn't looking for a job when he returned in S4. He showed enthusiasm and skill at creating a home with Felicity. 

Laurel should return as Time Management Canary though she blackmailed her way back into her job right?

 

42 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

In season 6, Oliver should open up a restaurant, but only for lunch and early dinner. So then he's free to go around as GA at night. But don't worry, no one in Star City will find that suspicious whatsoever and wonder if OQ is GA. 

It does seem like every job Oliver has done has either been because of his need to save the city (Verdant to hide the lair, mayor to work in the light) or from a family obligation (QC) and none of those have worked for him. Tommy did much of the work at Verdant and later Thea took it over, Thea did the management in the mayor's office and my personal fanwank is that Oliver wanted Felicity as his EA because he couldn't do his job on his own.

I think Oliver needs a job where he works independently and doesn't have to report to either a board or have to make committee decisions.  All that writing he's been doing in his journal -- maybe he could be a writer.  He has lots of experience stitching people up, a nurse practitioner might suit him (going to medical school would take too long).  Both of those would give him the flexible time schedule for his night-time job.

A chef, especially if he has his own gourmet catering company.  Or a personal trainer, like in redtoes Couch to 5K fic.

[Hiveminder]

He absolutely could not be CEO on his own, and no one should have asked him to do it. He was a four time college dropout with little to no knowledge of business laws and practices, and QC was a multi billion dollar company that he had previously shown very little interest in. 

I think Oliver would do well in a job where he could combine his creative talents (I assume he has some if he's a good cook.) and his mechanical/building capabilities. He got that airplane radio to work in season one, he had to do a good bit of construction to get the foundry functional. We've seen him making his own arrows and working on his bike. Maybe he could renovate houses or make furniture. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Hiveminder

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

He absolutely could not be CEO on his own, and no one should have asked him to do it. He was a four time college dropout with little to no knowledge of business laws and practices, and QC was a multi billion dollar company that he had previously shown very little interest in. 

 

This. And the fact that he was a dropout and no EXPERIENCE as a businessman when he disappeared apparently didn't compute in Moira's supposedly sharp brain. It really made me give Moira the side eye when she tore into Oliver for not showing any interest or willingness to take over, barely a week after his return. A return from his disappearance that clearly was fraught with Oliver being beaten and tortured. Principal Kwan The Doctor in the pilot was very clear to Moira about what he found when he examined Oliver.??

[Hiveminder]

31 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This. And the fact that he was a dropout and no EXPERIENCE as a businessman when he disappeared apparently didn't compute in Moira's supposedly sharp brain. It really made me give Moira the side eye when she tore into Oliver for not showing any interest or willingness to take over, barely a week after his return. A return from his disappearance that clearly was fraught with Oliver being beaten and tortured. Principal Kwan The Doctor in the pilot was very clear to Moira about what he found when he examined Oliver.??

I always felt Moira and Thea expected too much of Oliver in season one, and piled on the guilt when he didn't meet expectations. It annoys me that it still has not been acknowledged by anyone on the show that Oliver did not receive the support he needed when he first came back from the island, but I have to admit that that's at least partially because Oliver wanted it that way. He wanted people to think he was the same irresponsible kid he used to be and stay at a distance so he could do what he needed to do. 

[Mellowyellow]

My ideas for Oliver careers:

*Hot tradie

*Personal trainer like STATSGIRL suggested

*Run a restaurant - I thought about this and he could do a breakfast/brunch joint. Close at 2pm, go home and sleep until 9 or 10 pm. Deal with any evil masterminds that need dealing with or just send out noobs if it's only bank robbers etc. He could get ready for breakfast service after the nighttime vigilanting is done. 

[statsgirl]

For some reason, the idea of Oliver rounding up criminals and then setting up for breakfast service strikes me as hilarious.

15 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

*Hot tradie

We are "two countries separated by a common language."  What is a hot tradie?

31 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

I always felt Moira and Thea expected too much of Oliver in season one, and piled on the guilt when he didn't meet expectations. It annoys me that it still has not been acknowledged by anyone on the show that Oliver did not receive the support he needed when he first came back from the island, but I have to admit that that's at least partially because Oliver wanted it that way. He wanted people to think he was the same irresponsible kid he used to be and stay at a distance so he could do what he needed to do. 

Oliver didn't want support partly because he wanted to keep people at a distance as you say but given s5, he may also have wanted to keep people away because he thought himself a monster and not deserving of warmth and support.

Thea was just plain self-centered in s1.  But I have a bit of sympathy for Moira's situation. When she lost her husband and son it devastated her (maybe she saw it as partly her fault because she encouraged Robert to confront Malcolm).  Then a miracle happened and she got him back and she desperately wanted to push him into being the son that she had lost, or rather who Oliver would have been if he hadn't been lost for five years as if that could somehow make up for the lost years.  She was wrong to do that, of course, but I can understand why she did it.

[Hiveminder]

6 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

For some reason, the idea of Oliver rounding up criminals and then setting up for breakfast service strikes me as hilarious.

We are "two countries separated by a common language."  What is a hot tradie?

Oliver didn't want support partly because he wanted to keep people at a distance as you say but given s5, he may also have wanted to keep people away because he thought himself a monster and not deserving of warmth and support.

Thea was just plain self-centered in s1.  But I have a bit of sympathy for Moira's situation. When she lost her husband and son it devastated her (maybe she saw it as partly her fault because she encouraged Robert to confront Malcolm).  Then a miracle happened and she got him back and she desperately wanted to push him into being the son that she had lost, or rather who Oliver would have been if he hadn't been lost for five years as if that could somehow make up for the lost years.  She was wrong to do that, of course, but I can understand why she did it.

I do cut Thea some slack because she was a troubled teenager, and even non-troubled teenagers are straight up assholes. 

Moira, I'm more conflicted about. I admire her dedication to her children, and I would never want to be in her position. At the same time, she was old enough and intelligent enough that she should have known better than to make some of the choices she made. As much as I respect her willingness to sacrifice for her children, I can't respect her willingness to sacrifice others for her children. 

[Mellowyellow]

18 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

For some reason, the idea of Oliver rounding up criminals and then setting up for breakfast service strikes me as hilarious.

We are "two countries separated by a common language."  What is a hot tradie?

 

Hot tradesman like a really good looking electrician, plumber, carpenter or handyman. 

[kismet]

Well if we are pulling out careers for OQ... I'm going to go back to suggestion TV host of a daily talk show that incorporates his cooking, carpentry and work-up skills. He could be SC's modern day Oprah with a twist. This ways he could film segments at certain times and leave time to save the city against crime.

[SmallScreenDiva]

26 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Also has he ever had that smile for anyone else? Cuz I always think of that smile as his "dopey Felicity" smile and I don't recall seeing it anywhere else except in relation to her. Feel free to correct me. Excitement is kinda getting out of control and this will end in TEARS if they botch it up! 

As much as I would like to believe he only reserves that smile for Felicity, Oliver has shone that smile on other people, too. I thought you'd find this gifset interesting: http://geniewithwifi.tumblr.com/post/153977493048/shy-little-sinnamon-roll-too-pure-too-good-for

2 of the GIFS there are definitely for Felicity, the wedding one and the one in Nanda Parbat. This one is with Kara (Supergirl, during the crossover, if I remember correctly). The rest I can't really place.

[Mellowyellow]

Haha @SmallScreenDiva I knew someone would bring me back to earth. 

I will stick with that smile meaning he's happy to see his little sis again. No more working myself up!

That gifset reminded me of how sweet he can be and why I still ship them despite the crap this season!

[catrox14]

It's all in the eyes. Oliver has the smile but he doesn't have the heart eyes that go with it with Felicity. IMO

[BkWurm1]

On 3/30/2017 at 8:13 PM, statsgirl said:

Bringing this over from the spoiler discussion thread:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It does seem like every job Oliver has done has either been because of his need to save the city (Verdant to hide the lair, mayor to work in the light) or from a family obligation (QC) and none of those have worked for him. Tommy did much of the work at Verdant and later Thea took it over, Thea did the management in the mayor's office and my personal fanwank is that Oliver wanted Felicity as his EA because he couldn't do his job on his own.

I think Oliver needs a job where he works independently and doesn't have to report to either a board or have to make committee decisions.  All that writing he's been doing in his journal -- maybe he could be a writer.  He has lots of experience stitching people up, a nurse practitioner might suit him (going to medical school would take too long).  Both of those would give him the flexible time schedule for his night-time job.

A chef, especially if he has his own gourmet catering company.  Or a personal trainer, like in redtoes Couch to 5K fic.

Well they say that you should write what you know.  He'd have a LOT of material to mine.  Though I personally think he'd be happiest as a romance writer.  He could tap into all the action adventure or mystical stuff but this time give everything a happy ending.  I know it sounds like a joke but honestly, I could see it.  It would almost be like therapy!

Edited April 1, 2017 by BkWurm1

[Mellowyellow]

2 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well they say that you should write what you know.  He'd have a LOT of material to mine.  Though I personally think he'd be happiest as a romance writer.  He could tap into all the action adventure or mystical stuff but this time give everything a happy ending.  

He's going to write THE BEST Olicity fanfic ever!!!!

[BkWurm1]

4 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

He's going to write THE BEST Olicity fanfic ever!!!!

It's how he gets his start.  Later he changes the names, publishes and they make it into it's own movie.  

Edited April 1, 2017 by BkWurm1

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Well they say that you should write what you know.  He'd have a LOT of material to mine.  Though I personally think he'd be happiest as a romance writer.  He could tap into all the action adventure or mystical stuff but this time give everything a happy ending.  I know it sounds like a joke but honestly, I could see it.  It would almost be like therapy!

And he's already got the flashback hair for the cover.

[BkWurm1]

Thea would make a great publicist.  

[kismet]

From media/article thread.

3 hours ago, leopardprint said:

@kismet and @bijoux, I think Bratva Dirtbag Oliver's hair game is vastly superior to Bro Oliver or Jr. Serial Killer Oliver but Alone on the Island Oliver wins on strength of look. It's amazing how much the wigs change his appearance.  

Serial killer look was just special... and especially bad. I truly believe that photo being used in its various scenes was a wink-wink from the costume & prop department.

I see a lot of bro Oliver hairdos, so I get that costuming choice. It worked for him in the sense I knew exactly just what type of douche OQ was.

If I was ranking flashback wigs I would have to best to worst (s5, s1, s3, s2, s4)

S5 - It has the best body and I think actually fits his character. He looks like a Russian mobster thug. Plus it appears to be well managed with some nice shine & layers to really take it above just a haircut.

S1 - It was horrible hair but he was stuck on an island. And its not like he arrived there with a good haircut to begin with. So I give it a fashion pass. Plus compared to Yao Fei it was at least semi-ok.

S3 - Just edges out s2, if only because it's so bad that it is hysterical. It's a satirical take on wigs. And I remember the wind machine in the night club scene and it was pure action comedy.

S2 - While still island bound, I'm sure they had come across some modern conveniences to help shape that hairdo. Both Slade & Shado were able to look jungle chic despite being castaways. There really was no excuse for OQ to be slumming that do.

S4- Well I hated the early on hair cut because it really was too close to present day OQ. Plus it wasn't too flattering once he started interacting with Poppy & co. He looked like some reject from military academy or an ANTM makeover gone wrong. Nor did it help to inform his character. Like most of s4 flashbacks, it was a narrative snoozefest.

[Hiveminder]

6 minutes ago, kismet said:

From media/article thread.

Serial killer look was just special... and especially bad. I truly believe that photo being used in its various scenes was a wink-wink from the costume & prop department.

I see a lot of bro Oliver hairdos, so I get that costuming choice. It worked for him in the sense I knew exactly just what type of douche OQ was.

If I was ranking flashback wigs I would have to best to worst (s5, s1, s3, s2, s4)

S5 - It has the best body and I think actually fits his character. He looks like a Russian mobster thug. Plus it appears to be well managed with some nice shine & layers to really take it above just a haircut.

S1 - It was horrible hair but he was stuck on an island. And its not like he arrived there with a good haircut to begin with. So I give it a fashion pass. Plus compared to Yao Fei it was at least semi-ok.

S3 - Just edges out s2, if only because it's so bad that it is hysterical. It's a satirical take on wigs. And I remember the wind machine in the night club scene and it was pure action comedy.

S2 - While still island bound, I'm sure they had come across some modern conveniences to help shape that hairdo. Both Slade & Shado were able to look jungle chic despite being castaways. There really was no excuse for OQ to be slumming that do.

S4- Well I hated the early on hair cut because it really was too close to present day OQ. Plus it wasn't too flattering once he started interacting with Poppy & co. He looked like some reject from military academy or an ANTM makeover gone wrong. Nor did it help to inform his character. Like most of s4 flashbacks, it was a narrative snoozefest.

Now I'm picturing season five FB Oliver at the hairdressers describing exactly how long he wants his layers to be. 

[kismet]

3 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Now I'm picturing season five FB Oliver at the hairdressers describing exactly how long he wants his layers to be. 

Likewise, I also seen him getting some full foil highlights :)

[BkWurm1]

Maybe Anatoly took him on a spa day?

[Hiveminder]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Maybe Anatoly took him on a spa day?

Lol. I can legitimately see Anatoly trying but getting fed up because Oliver keeps complaining. 

[kismet]

Not to kill drama or anything... but I would totally watch an episode that included Anatoly & OQ on a spa day.

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

Not to kill drama or anything... but I would totally watch an episode that included Anatoly & OQ on a spa day.

Totally.  I'll help crowd fund it if they also stopped at Bed Bath and Beyond on their way home.  

[Hiveminder]

9 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Totally.  I'll help crowd fund it if they also stopped at Bed Bath and Beyond on their way home.  

Only if Felicity meets them there. 

[BkWurm1]

19 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

Only if Felicity meets them there. 

We'll have to set it in the future then, at a time when Anatoly and Oliver are back to being buds.  

[Hiveminder]

22 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

We'll have to set it in the future then, at a time when Anatoly and Oliver are back to being buds.  

It can be a dream sequence for all I care. As long as we see it. 

[BkWurm1]

7 minutes ago, Hiveminder said:

It can be a dream sequence for all I care. As long as we see it. 

Well then I want a song and dance number added.  ;)

[kismet]

@Hiveminder & @BkWurm1 you guys are describing such a fun episode. :) I would definitely help crowdfund it. Of course it might have to happen on another show.... Arrow only handles SERIOUS topics :| No FUN for this crew.

Of course, they could have Anatoly & OQ's spa day be interrupted by Bratva business. Both Nikita, Chuck & Alias had spa day interruptions... It is a classic Spy genre cliche to have a mission set in a Spa. We could get fun disguised as serious.

[Hiveminder]

4 minutes ago, kismet said:

@Hiveminder & @BkWurm1 you guys are describing such a fun episode. :) I would definitely help crowdfund it. Of course it might have to happen on another show.... Arrow only handles SERIOUS topics :| No FUN for this crew.

Of course, they could have Anatoly & OQ's spa day be interrupted by Bratva business. Both Nikita, Chuck & Alias had spa day interruptions... It is a classic Spy genre cliche to have a mission set in a Spa. We could get fun disguised as serious.

All of Team Arrow could go.  Oliver and Dig could get a couples massage. 

[BkWurm1]

Wild Dog gets a pedicure.  

Curtis gets a facial.  His pores risk getting clogged from that weird grease T mask.  

Edited April 9, 2017 by BkWurm1

[kismet]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

Wild Dog gets a pedicure.  

Curtis gets a facial.  His pores risk getting clogged from that weird grease T mask.  

Curtis does really take his "T-Zone" to a whole other level :)

[tv echo]

Here's this oldie but goodie MG quote about Oliver from last November...

-- MG: “One of the things we embrace on the show is he’s a hypocrite, he’s kind of a lousy leader, he makes terrible decisions. It gives us fodder for a lot of stories... [But] in season 5, we’re probably telling more stories about the conflicting moralities of what Oliver’s been doing over the life of the series. Everything we’ve been trying to do in season 5 has been building off of our history, our long history, because that’s something that the other shows just can’t do.” (Nov. 10, 2016 Entertainment Weekly article, page 190 of Starling City Times thread)

Do you think or hope that Oliver will change/evolve next season? Or will Arrow end up playing the same old beats of Oliver making stupid decisions and wrestling with inner angst?

[statsgirl]

More than the question of whether Oliver will change/evolve next season, for me it's whether the writers can, or if they are limited to the same beats for him that they write every season, wash rinse,repeat.  (Sadly, I fear the latter.)

[bijoux]

I think the discussion about Oliver probably fits here better.

6 minutes ago, johntfs said:

That's a definite use.  It's not good or healthy use, but it's a use.  Also, once Billy was killed he seemed to focus and care less for Susan.

Their relationship, such as it were, happened after Billy's death.

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Even Roy he took on only reluctantly and more to keep Roy from getting hurt by going off on his own than because Roy could be useful to him.

Roy was my first thought as well. Oliver's primary purpose in bringing him into the fold was protecting him and others. 

[statsgirl]

13 hours ago, johntfs said:

That's a definite use.  It's not good or healthy use, but it's a use.  Also, once Billy was killed he seemed to focus and care less for Susan.

Susan pursued him.  She even got his staff to tell her when he was leaving the office so that she could waylay him and invite him out to have drinks with her.  She was also the one pushing the relationship, including getting him into her bed.   If anyone was using the other, it was Susan using Oliver to get a story.  For Oliver, it seemed like he was trying to move on from Felicity and Susan was pushing him for a relationship.

As well as Roy, Oliver was protective of Thea (to the extent offering to fight Ra's to save her) and was the first person to notice when something was wrong with her in s4, unlike Laurel or Diggle.

[LeighAn]

On 31 March 2017 at 2:56 PM, SmallScreenDiva said:

As much as I would like to believe he only reserves that smile for Felicity, Oliver has shone that smile on other people, too. I thought you'd find this gifset interesting: http://geniewithwifi.tumblr.com/post/153977493048/shy-little-sinnamon-roll-too-pure-too-good-for

2 of the GIFS there are definitely for Felicity, the wedding one and the one in Nanda Parbat. This one is with Kara (Supergirl, during the crossover, if I remember correctly). The rest I can't really place.

The others are for his parents Tommy and Thea. So I think good company in the people who make Oliver smile ?

[statsgirl]

13 minutes ago, johntfs said:

He was a little worse about it in the first season than in others because his constant "must complete Dad's book mission" outlook.  He only ever shared his secret when he was stuck in some version of a situation of no choice.  When he did add people to Team Arrow, he added people who could complement his own skills (John Diggle) and add new capabilities he didn't have (Felicity Smoak).  In terms of Laurel's relationship with Tommy, it felt a little like a weird version of Oliver's relationship with Laurel.  Tommy was the person Laurel should want, just like Laurel was the competent, respectable kind of girl Oliver should want.  He's brave, kind and generous of spirit.  He's exactly who she needs to get over Oliver.  Except Laurel and Oliver had a lot of emotional inertia and unfinished business.  Neither of them wanted to hurt Tommy.  They just didn't choose to stop themselves.

We were speculating on another thread whether Oliver would reveal himself as the Green Arrow at the end of season 5 thus justifying Susan's existence or whether they'll do it in season 6.  I hate the idea of him being outed because I think it takes away a lot of potential story lines.  I am all for Oliver not revealing his identity to anyone unless it's a no choice situation.  The more people know, the less interesting I find the chase.

In that vein, I also agree with his decision to add people to Team Arrow who are useful to the team.  Diggle was a fighter, Felicity added tech support. He added Roy to channel Roy's determination into a safer vein but Roy added to the fighting capabilities.  I find the s5 team to be rather a mess but I blame the writing. Still, Curtis and Evelyn were little value added on top of being forced on Oliver.

I think Oliver would agree with you that Laurel was "the competent, respectable kind of girl Oliver should want" which is probably why he stayed with her long past the date they should have broken up. Laurel never understood him, he never curbed himself because he didn't want to be the kind of man she wanted, and they made each other into their worst selves (see:  sleeping with each other right after Oliver encouraged Laurel to fight for her relationship with Tommy). 

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, statsgirl said:

they made each other into their worst selves

So, this, then.

 

But seriously, you're absolutely right.  When she was with at least certain other characters, Laurel wasn't... completely awful.  She was good in scenes with Quentin and almost fun with Tommy and her friend from the law foundation.  But put her in even the same room as Oliver and she was just... completely awful.  Stephen with his "I smell rabid dog diarrhea" face wasn't all that great either.  The weird thing is that from the blooper reel (witness the bed fail) Katie Cassidy seems like a really fun person, just laughing her ass off at the mess up.  You just kind of wonder what the failure/disconnect was that the real-life fun person couldn't (or wasn't allowed to) convey that to the audience.

Black Siren Laurel seems a little closer to that but I guess we'll see. 

Edited June 27, 2017 by johntfs

[bijoux]

From Mind Your Surroundings:

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Shots like that always make me wonder what would happen if there was no island and he ran into Felicity. Would he go from Ollie to baking souffles and trying to marry her.

Because they made it clear that he cheated with anyone and everyone in his youth but he's so freaking smitten with Felicity he perpetually looks at her like she hung the moon.

This is why I ship them so hard *happy sigh*

I don't know how Ollie meeting Felicity would have gone, although I do hope it would be like that. However, while I can't see any scenario in which he would cheat on Felicity, I really don't see him cheating on anyone post island, nor did he. He took the whole Gambit clusterfuck as a punishment for his sins, and cheating on his girlfriend with her sister among a legion of others was certainly one of them. So, post-island Oliver is no cheater IMO, regardless of who he is in a relationship with. He is just nowhere close to as happy, content and fulfilled as he is with Felicity. 

I don't even see him cheating on Laurel. Just running away to hellish places. 

[statsgirl]

A while ago the question of what were Oliver's parents like when he was a child.  According to this interview at eonline

Quote

3. Oliver's a Better Dad Than You Might Expect

"I would say he's better than you expect. He doesn't exactly have a lot of role models. He doesn't have a lot to work off of when it comes to being a parent. He's pretty much on his own here," Guggenheim explains.

[Featherhat]

Ok I was watching Legacy a couple of days ago, and I'd forgotten this: "I'm Mayor of a City that thinks I learned politics from watching The West Wing. And all I could think of was "Oliver, if they think you've watched The West Wing that's actually a step up considering when it originally aired it's finale you were punching Paps and inviting your girlfriend's sister on a sex cruise having dropped out of school no 4. You probably couldn't have named many real staffers or politicians let alone TV ones, even the ones you're Dad financed or knew socially. 

[bijoux]

5 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Sara Lance is the best version of Black Canary and I'm cool with that.

I've posted before that they made a huge mistake basically making Arrow's version of Laurel Lance  Rachel Dawes from Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight movies. They thought they could somehow evolve her into the Black Canary just as I'm sure they thought they could eventually turn Oliver from the more extreme Batman vigilante in the beginning  to the snarky, left-wing Green Arrow in the comics. Those plans went out the window when they cast Stephen Amell. Rachel Dawes is the worst characters ever that two actresses couldn't make appealing and her only purpose was to die, or as "fridged". Now they're trying to course correct by bring in Black Siren, from another Earth and making her Ollie's Selina Kyle/Catwoman and a redemption arc.

I don’t get that impression. I think Oliver and GA were always supposed to be dark and broody, and Barry and The Flash were supposed to be light and cheery. The crossovers seem to reflect this vision. The show certainly has been painting him with socialist strokes since at least season 2 and his efforts to work with Blood though IMO. Then we had his platform in S4 and initiatives as mayor in the following two seasons (more so inS5 than S6 I believe, but correct me if I’m wrong), and finally, two episodes ago he had barely cleaned himself up after 7 months of prison before campaigning for prison reform. 

[BkWurm1]

I agree, his Green Arrow was never going to be the light wise cracking guy from the comics.  The show went its own way and yes, that steps into Batman territory with all the brooding but otherwise, he's veered far away from Batman's Bruce Wayne's playboy persona since some point in mid season two while also starting in on his activism.  

[TrueMyth]

Does the whole “Mark of Four” tattoo really sound like Oliver’s brain child to anyone?

On the one hand, Oliver has struggled for a long time about learning to rely on people and be part of a team. The amount that he can and does now is possitive character growth. So... maybe? Maybe he rallies “heroes” with this tattoo crew?

However, even though Oliver has three tattoos when he returns from Lian Yu, we ultimately learn that ALL three were forced upon him under various degrees of duress, and, given the chance, he has actually started to remove them. Would he really pick a tattoo as his Hero Crew team calling card?

[KenyaJ]

No way. First of all, the way Dinah explained the tattoo, it all sounded much to sentimental to have come from Oliver. Oliver is only gooey and sentimental like that with Felicity and Thea. Obviously, we don't know what happened in the 20 years leading up to the future, but it's hard for me to imagine Oliver feeling so strongly about the rest of the team that he'd create that tattoo as a symbol of their loyalty to each other. Especially since he should know by now that NTA is not loyal to him or the team. All the proof we need is in the way that Future Dinah has talked about not trusting William because he's Oliver's kid and her repeated insistence that Felicity is totes evil.

So yeah, I'm not buying that story.