Oliver Queen: The Arrow

[Angel12d]

I think this year everbody involved on the island should be negative or evil people, so Oliver will learn not to trust anyone. He needs to not trust people and easily use his skill with ease. At the end of this season and most of next season he needs to see actual nasty things. So he'll be non trusting and disillusioned. But something happens that he wants to feel hope and be able to help that leads him back to his father's book of names.

 

 

I agree. I'm finding the flashbacks dull again so far but I also didn't like how close to present day Oliver he seems. It's not exactly the dark kind of Oliver I was expecting in his fourth year in hell. I need to see more darkness, more killing, more people betraying him. Not really seeing that so far. Even last year he was housed with Maseo's family who embraced him and showed him kindness. I'm a bit confused tbh.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Angel12d

[quarks]

My question, and it's a non snarky one, is why did the bad guys on the island accept him so quickly? One of the bits that I liked about the season one and season two flashbacks is that nobody accepted anyone quickly - I mean, flashback Oliver was the most useless person in the show on either timeline, but Fyers still locked him up/tortured him because he had no reason to trust Oliver at all.  And vice versa. This season, we have the bad guys saying, "Huh, wealthy billionaire claiming that he's been stranded on this island for three years, and yet somehow never encountered us when we were planting these poppy things, and our people keep getting blown up around him? By all means, LET'S HAND HIM A GUN AND A KNIFE AND MAKE HIM ONE OF US!"

 

I'm missing Fyers. Yes, I know he was a jerk, but I'm missing him.

[Morrigan2575]

Shh don't think about it too much.  

 

Frankly, I find the flashbacks boring and usually play Candy Crush or Solitaire until it's over.

[bijoux]

quarks, I have no good explanation. Only hope that the bad guys are setting Oliver up for something. The guy in charge got some promotion before the season started and now we haven't seen him since the premiere. Why?

[AyChihuahua]

My question, and it's a non snarky one, is why did the bad guys on the island accept him so quickly? One of the bits that I liked about the season one and season two flashbacks is that nobody accepted anyone quickly - I mean, flashback Oliver was the most useless person in the show on either timeline, but Fyers still locked him up/tortured him because he had no reason to trust Oliver at all.  And vice versa. This season, we have the bad guys saying, "Huh, wealthy billionaire claiming that he's been stranded on this island for three years, and yet somehow never encountered us when we were planting these poppy things, and our people keep getting blown up around him? By all means, LET'S HAND HIM A GUN AND A KNIFE AND MAKE HIM ONE OF US!"

 

I'm missing Fyers. Yes, I know he was a jerk, but I'm missing him.

That's...a really good point.

 

I thought of another way Poppy is shitty.  Not only did she let the one guy get shot for her, she also let the other guy get tortured for awhile before finally speaking up, and then she dressed down Oliver for not knowing the name of the guy he was torturing...like hey Poppy, Oliver might have tortured him without knowing his name, but YOU are the reason he was tortured in the first place.  I mean, I get being too scared to speak up, but maybe then don't steal the drugs from the evil drug kingpin guys in the first place?

 

So yeah, flashbacks suck again, although I am kinda liking the second-in-command guy.

[Password]

Oh my gosh calling her Poppy is the best.

[kismet]

So I've been thinking in light of the Mayoral race and other reasons, OQ's academic record will probably come up at least once. It already has at various points throughout the series. I do not mind that his academic failures have been mentioned or used as a joke. However, I really wish they could also somehow weave into the narrative that his academic performance had more to do with a lack of focus and effort than his actual intellectual ability.

 

I feel like OQ is an intelligent person. I believe his level of strategic thinking is almost a superpower. It also can be a hindrance, because I think he can be over-analytical especially when it comes to relationships. But back to the point, I feel like he dropped/failed out of so many schools because he didn't try. He for various reasons, self-sabotaged himself and failed to live up to his potential. Now that he is a changed man with more focus and drive, I really wish the show would acknowledge that he is an intelligent man and probably would have excelled at some academics if he had only tried.

 

He will probably never be as smart as FS, but that's ok. I love that he is not and he is perfectly ok with her being the smarter one. I just don't want him toted around as this dumb kid who couldn't pass a class. On that note, I really wish they would show him perhaps trying to fix his previous failures by perhaps taking classes or reading up on subjects he is not familiar with or that come in handy with his night job, like forensics. I feel like a lot of people thought BA or RP were a better fit for FS because they were written as super intelligent. But in reality, OQ may be just as intelligent as them, he just applies it differently. FS wouldn't be with him if he was dumb, and I highly doubt he would have survived as long as he has under all the different conditions placed on him if he was dumb.

Edited October 27, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

I have no doubt that Oliver as he is now would excel at most anything. Of course he's not as smart as Felicity, she's a genius. Doesn't mean he's not smart. (BTW, Ray mentioned crazy high IQ scores, I don't know about Barry.) Plus, as I've mentioned the other day, his work ethics is top notch. He was the one who harped on both Roy and Barry to keep working at their abilities. Had he actually focused on QC when he was running it, and not using it as another front for being The Arrow I believe the company would be at least solid. Absolutely no reason this person couldn't finish college.

A while ago I wondered about the wisdom of Robert leaving him to fend for himself in the middle of the ocean when it seemed he didn't have the abilities to keep himself alive in the Queen mansion were he left alone in it for a week. But I've actually started to wonder if Robert saw all this untapped potential - the intellect, focus and drive. If he did, I wonder that he didn't pull his hair out from the frustration. Because there's his kid who could really be reat and he goes around pissing on cops. It would have driven me crazy.

[Angel12d]

I actually think Oliver is a very intelligent person. He's picked up a lot of skills over the last few years, including a couple of languages. That's not easy to learn, especially as an adult. I think he just needed the focus and will to apply himself and get things done. 

[AyChihuahua]

Prior to S3 I thought Oliver was extremely intelligent.  Then his brain was switched with an undergrown cabbage.

 

Hopefully the cabbage is fully grown now.

[kismet]

He made some dumb decisions in s3. But I think his brain was overloaded and fritzed out. I also think that sometimes people can overthink themselves into a corner which is what OQ did in s3. If you look at most of his decisions in s3 from a very analytical position they can be justified or explained. But once put in the context of relationships or the changing dynamics that occurred in s3 the decisions seem less intelligent. That being said, he does seem to get stuck in his own train of thoughts and often blocks out alternative trains of thought, which is why OTA was such a good system for him. A checks & balances, but as we saw in s3 OTA was not allowed to be there for OQ & the more he isolated himself the more tunnel vision his thinking became hence one dumb decision leading into another dumb decision.

[lexicon]

I agree with almost everything you said @kismet except that most of Oliver's season 3 decisions could be justified or explained from an analytical position, some sure just imo, not most. What really struck me about your post however, was your remark that OTA was not allowed to be there for Oliver and there I think you hit the nail on the head. I think, I spent so much time frustrated at Felicity deliberately being stuck on Palmer Island sans lifeboat that I failed to appreciate how isolated Oliver was from his support system. 

[kismet]

Currently in a rewatch of s3 so I could attempt to analytically explain the majority of his decisions. A lot of it depends on what the desired outcome is. A happy & emotionally healthy OQ, no I can't do that. A safe SC, probably. The only decision I can't explain is why he didn't turn MM over to the authorities that seems to be a major logical & ethical fail. I get not turning him over to Ras, but they should have tried the authorities, when he first showed back in town. Only thing I can logically think is perhaps he was afraid MM would spill the beans on him & TA.

[dtissagirl]

I think the last word I would use to describe S3 Oliver is "analytical". I mean, I can probably explain most of his decision making by *me* being analytical, but Oliver? No way.

 

- He had a glimpse at happiness that was violently interrupted? BAM, super reactionary overreaction, oh noes I neeeeeds to be #foreveralone if I'm gonna be a superhero because I can't have distractions or happiness.

 

- Sara was killed? Super harsh compartmentalizing of feelings. Which is a symptom of PTSD, btw.

 

- Believing in Malcolm + everything ever that had to do with Malcolm --  100% attached to over-protecting Thea, or Thea's soul, or whatever the hell his treating her like his 5 year old child was. All emotion, which both Malcolm and Ra's saw through, and took advantage of to manipulate Oliver into doing dumber shit.

 

- Thinking he could go without Team Arrow to dismantle the LoA and beat Ra's? Not only he was proven wrong, but putting his loved ones above him was all about Oliver believing he's expendable. In his mind, if he dies, but his friends and family are safe, that's okay with him.

 

[Which is what I think that "fight to live" line was about. It's not a good line, but imo the meaning behind it is "it's not okay to think you're expendable, because if you die for us, we'll be devastated and it'll be awful, and that's NOT OKAY, Oliver. Seriously, we went through this in S2 when you wanted to give yourself up to Slade, I'm sorry the writers forgot that part."]

 

On top of that I can also give BTS/out of text motivation for all of those decisions:

 

- Dumping Felicity: they needed to sell Palmer as a viable candidate for a spin-off, and that was Felicity's job.

 

- Killing Sara: the rise of Because Comics.

 

- Malcolm: Barrowman is a nice fella, we wanna keep him around.

 

- Going lone ranger on the LoA: being proven wrongity wrongy wrong wrong wrong about that, as a set up for accepting the full team + a happy life with Felicity in the season finale.

 

But that's me being over-analytical, not Oliver.

Edited October 28, 2015 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, Oliver's S3 plans were tactically and strategically idiotic and failed, and failed, and failed again.  If not for the rest of Team Arrow, who he'd shut out, Starling City would be a smoking crater of death.

This cracked me up:

[Which is what I think that "fight to live" line was about. It's not a good line, but imo the meaning behind it is "it's not okay to think you're expendable, because if you die for us, we'll be devastated and it'll be awful, and that's NOT OKAY, Oliver. Seriously, we went through this in S2 when you wanted to give yourself up to Slade, I'm sorry the writers forgot that part."]

Oliver you ALREADY LEARNED THIS LESSON LAST YEAR!

[statsgirl]

Every year Oliver has to learn the lesson about not being able to do it all himself. Twice in season 3.  So I'm hoping that this time it finally has stuck  because honestly, I'm tired of the same idiocy every year.

 

I actually think Oliver is a very intelligent person. He's picked up a lot of skills over the last few years, including a couple of languages. That's not easy to learn, especially as an adult. I think he just needed the focus and will to apply himself and get things done. 

I'd also say that Oliver has a lot of "fluid intelligence" (Cattrell & Horn) which is "…the ability to perceive relationships independent of previous specific practice or instruction concerning those relationships"  as opposed to "crystallized intelligence" which is what Ray, Barry and Felicity to some extent have.  You can see it when Oliver has to teach Barry to expect those arrows from behind or Ray that his real weapon is himself not his suit.

 

S3 was just dumbass intelligence, or writing for plot.

[EmeraldArcher]

Hey, guys--Oliver Queen has brought sexy back!

I think seeing him shirtless and climbing Sally convinced me that he's not turning into a squeaky voiced suburbanite. Whew! There are still cutesy Olicity moments, as there should be, but SA has pretty much disappeared into Hot!Oliver again. YAY!

Loved that Oliver has assumed leadership of the team again. Nobody seems to be challenging his unofficial leadership like in 401.

[morakot]

(Just can't leave this thread at 666 comments...)

 

On topic, it is nice to see Oliver being sunny and happy instead of dark, gloomy, and miserable.

[AyChihuahua]

(Just can't leave this thread at 666 comments...)

 

On topic, it is nice to see Oliver being sunny and happy instead of dark, gloomy, and miserable.

I'm just happy he hasn't been unbearably stupid.

[bijoux]

Here's something that's popped into my head. Oliver very obviously wants a parental figure. Yet he found out all of them had lain down with the devil, figuratively, literally or both. Robert and Moira with Malcolm, Quentin with Damien Darhk. And then there's Donna who he'll get via Felicity. So how will he react once

the truth about Felicity's father being a bad dude comes out? Et tu, Donna? *sigh*

 

[tv echo]

I liked Laura Hurley's comments on Oliver's diminished fighting skills this season...

As much as I tend to rail on the writers, I’m not going to blame the marginalization of Oliver’s fighting skills on them. I think that the decision to promote the other muscle members of Team Arrow 3.0 to equal standing with Oliver put Guggenheim and Co. at the executive level in a tough position of how to give the impression of an egalitarian field squad when we had three seasons of evidence that Oliver is a truly exceptional fighter. Archer Oliver beat speedster Barry when Barry was in super-rage-aholic mode, for heaven’s sake!
 

To try to equalize the fighters of Team Arrow 3.0 as quickly as possible, the most convenient route was to show off the newbies while presenting that the original vigilante can no longer cut it on his own. This has been Arrow showing rather than just telling, but the determination to sell Team Arrow 3.0 as a group of equals as as early as possible in the fourth season has been at the cost of Oliver’s abilities. There are some aspects of the storytelling that just don’t work at Arrow’s absurd pace of churning through plots, and the action sequences of Team Arrow 3.0 have fallen short thus far.

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/132406431898/hi-laura-i-read-your-4x04-review-i-loved-it

I loved Oliver and Digg out in the field together at the end of 4x01 and in their scenes together in 4x03. Team Arrow 2.0 as a fighting as a single flashy unit alongside Oliver all by his lonesome is what has been lessening the impact of Oliver’s abilities.
 

I could slightly excuse away the loss to Anarky. Anarky’s defining trait was his total craziness, and Oliver did spend most of the episode concerned with his sister. Anarky had a dangerous weapon and was shown to have the reflexes to avoid being clobbered into a puddle of anarchist goo long enough to jab Oliver with his cattle prod. If Anarky had been an outlier, I would have been okay.
 

But Liza in 4x04 beating Oliver was too much. It doesn’t matter how much training she had as a member of the anti-vigilante task force; she’s not a large woman. We’ve seen Oliver defeat Sara and Nyssa largely because of his size, and Liza being able to get the best of him was ridiculous.

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/post/132370047331/no-intention-to-offend-but-i-just-wanted-to

Edited November 2, 2015 by tv echo

[KirkB]

I think at least once a season someone needs to come along, not a metahuman, who just kicks Oliver's ass. He may be a great fighter but he's not the only one and there are going to be people better. However, what I don't think the show needs to do is lessen Oliver's apparent abilities in the day to day fights on a weekly basis to make the rest of the team look good. The best way to do that is show Oliver taking down four or five guys in the same period of time it takes Thea and Laurel to stop one or two. Diggle gets an exception here since he usually just shoots them.

[Carrie Ann]

I might be remembering wrong because sometimes my eyes glaze over during fight scenes, but these two examples--of Anarky and Liza getting the better of Oliver--don't really track to "making others look better," IMO. In the first case, the point wasn't to make it look like Thea was stronger or more skilled than Oliver. Anarky went after Oliver harder because he IS the bigger threat*, and he got him with a device that would take anyone down. The purpose of that scene wasn't for Thea to save him and have her hero shot. It was so that she could go WAY overboard and set this dude on fire so Oliver sees that she's screwed up.

 

And in terms of Liza--I thought that was the best way for that to go. She didn't get the upper hand by fighting Oliver. He defeated her by tying her up, so he thought she was no longer a threat. She escaped and got a knife in his back while he was distracted by Lance. (S3 Oliver probably would have told Quentin that they couldn't be friends anymore because he was a distraction, lol.) She didn't overpower him. And if anything, that happened in order to give QL the opportunity to redeem himself. Again, not to show that any other team member is a better fighter than Oliver.

 

So my problem isn't that they're weakening Oliver in service of other characters. I think we're just not seeing as much of him as I'd like. Over the course of this show, the action scenes started at 100% Oliver doing cool shit, went down to maybe 90/10 O/D for a very long time, then 75/25 O/Other people, and now we're at MAYBE 50/50 Oliver/Other people. So it feels like he's getting the short end of the stick, when really it's just that they're not doing a great job of keeping Oliver centered. And they are way overcompensating on trying not to make it seem like anyone is a sidekick. That is ludicrous. I'm sorry the show screwed up by framing the One True Black Canary's journey this way, but she IS and should be a sidekick in this story.

 

*ETA: I actually re-watched this scene, and Anarky immediately takes Thea out with the taser, then very competently fights Oliver down the hallway until he tases him, and then Thea reappears. Oliver is down for a period of time, just like Thea was after she was tased.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[tarotx]

It's more the look Oliver has in the field. He's not as confident out there or have as strong or dominate presence. They also are having big staged scene where all the heros continue off what the others were doing. Imo it's too big for just a few hours filming. The big stunts needs more time and money than Arrow affords.

Edited November 2, 2015 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

@Carrie Ann, I completely agree.

 

It's the problem with having a team that's fighter, fighter, fighter, fighter, hacker. There's no variety of functions during action scenes with four people doing the same thing [uh, fighting bad guys], so Oliver's basically being diluted into sameness.

[tangerine95]

Yeah its not even that he's a weaker fighter,I think the show is presenting him as the best since the team needed him back and couldn't handle things without him while he was gone.Its that he's not getting the focus in fight scenes like he used to and should be getting.They're doing group fight scenes almost every episode so that takes away time to show Oliver doing stunts since they have to fit three other fighters.

[Carrie Ann]

It's the problem with having a team that's fighter, fighter, fighter, fighter, hacker. There's no variety of functions during action scenes with four people doing the same thing [uh, fighting bad guys], so Oliver's basically being diluted into sameness.

 

Yes, exactly. I've been having a hard time figuring out why this isn't working, when ensemble fighting teams have always worked for me before, and yeah, it's because these four aren't differentiated enough. It's not like Leverage, it's not like BtVS or Angel, hell it's not even like TMNT, where they each had their own weapon. I mean, you could argue that they sort of do, but they don't really highlight that on the show and even if they did, Oliver is proficient in all of them, so once again.... The only thing that really differentiates them is their skill and experience level, and the show is disregarding that.

[AyChihuahua]

I might be remembering wrong because sometimes my eyes glaze over during fight scenes, but these two examples--of Anarky and Liza getting the better of Oliver--don't really track to "making others look better," IMO. In the first case, the point wasn't to make it look like Thea was stronger or more skilled than Oliver. Anarky went after Oliver harder because he IS the bigger threat, and he got him with a device that would take anyone down. The purpose of that scene wasn't for Thea to save him and have her hero shot. It was so that she could go WAY overboard and set this dude on fire so Oliver sees that she's screwed up.

 

And in terms of Liza--I thought that was the best way for that to go. She didn't get the upper hand when fighting Oliver. They fought, he defeated her by tying her up, so he thought she was no longer a threat. She escaped and got a knife in his back while he was distracted by Lance. (S3 Oliver probably would have told Quentin that they couldn't be friends anymore because he was a distraction, lol.) She didn't overpower him. And if anything, that happened in order to give QL the opportunity to redeem himself. Again, not to show that any other team member is a better fighter than Oliver.

 

So my problem isn't that they're weakening Oliver in service of other characters. I think we're just not seeing as much of him as I'd like. Over the course of this show, the action scenes started at 100% Oliver doing cool shit, down to maybe 90/10 O/D for a very long time, then maybe 75/25 O/Other people, and now we're at MAYBE 50/50 Oliver/Other people. So it feels like he's getting the short end of the stick, when really it's just that they're not doing a great job of keeping Oliver centered. And they are way overcompensating on trying not to make it seem like anyone is a sidekick. That is ludicrous. I'm sorry the show screwed up by framing the One True Black Canary's journey this way, but she IS and should be a sidekick in this story.

I don't know whether they're doing it to make the others look good or for PLOT (see, e.g., Oliver had to get beaten so Thea could go nuts), but they're definitely doing it.  At the end of the day Lonnie Machin is a tiny man with a cattle prod, and Lady Cop is a tiny little woman with a knife.  They should not have beaten him at all, in any way.  

[Angel12d]

I don't see it as them portraying him as a weaker fighter or anything but they're not giving Oliver the focus he should get as lead of the show. I do see it as them trying to give other characters more importance or a chance to shine when I think Thea and Laurel should be in more of a sidekick role.

 

And that scene where Lady Cop gets the better of Oliver with a knife was so jarring. It was like 'Oh, plot dictates that Quentin needs to make an empowering speech so Oliver needs to just stand there with a knife in his back and take it until QL's finished.' Um no.

[Carrie Ann]

I don't know whether they're doing it to make the others look good or for PLOT (see, e.g., Oliver had to get beaten so Thea could go nuts), but they're definitely doing it.  At the end of the day Lonnie Machin is a tiny man with a cattle prod, and Lady Cop is a tiny little woman with a knife.  They should not have beaten him at all, in any way.  

 

Okay, I just fundamentally disagree that Oliver can't be temporarily beaten by people who are smaller than him. It's not like LL being able to toss large LOA guys around like ragdolls (or fight at their level in any sense). In both of these cases, it was the weapon that ultimately hurt him, not the person wielding it. It happened in previous seasons, and then he'd go back to the lair, regroup, restrategize, and beat them.

 

Basically: I think we're not seeing as many moments of OQ being badass, AND I find LL and TQ's skill level and expectations of equal treatment eye-roll-worthy, but these two moments don't represent either to me. I don't see Oliver's abilities being lessened here, and definitely not in service to propping another characters' skills. That's all I was saying. Maybe over the course of the season, we'll see more of this, of Oliver always being the one who the villains get the drop on, and then I too will say "enough!" I just think OQ is getting short-shrift because the show is giving him less time in their fight scenes and giving it to LL/TQ, and therefore he's getting to have fewer moments of doing cool shit. It sucks.

[dtissagirl]

This might also be a problem with the concept going into the 4-hero stunts. I mean -- if you are gonna put them all in a stunt sequence, you're gonna design the scene in a way that highlights all of them, or else, why are they even there? So they are giving equal spotlight/screentime/wins to each of them, and... it's making Oliver seem less by comparison.

Edited November 2, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Chasity]

They are not giving equal spotlight/screentime to all of them though. That's the problem for me. Oliver just stands around watching during those fights while the majority of the sequence is spent of Laurel and Thea with Diggle getting a little of the action.

[AyChihuahua]

 

Okay, I just fundamentally disagree that Oliver can't be temporarily beaten by people who are smaller than him. It's not like LL being able to toss large LOA guys around like ragdolls (or fight at their level in any sense).

It's not just size, it's skill.  I'd be fine with Sara beating him, and she's much smaller.  But she spent five years with the real LOA, before the LOA was replaced by the Junior League of Assassins.  Lady Cop was just a SWAT cop.  No way should a tiny little SWAT cop with only a knife be able to get the drop on him.  If his bolero arrow thing can be that easily escaped, he should have been paying a lot more attention, and then he should have noticed her cutting her way out of it and sneaking over to him.  Re Lonnie Machin, we had no reason to believe he was some awesome hand-to-hand fighter, and re Lonnie's weapon being the real thing, well, Deathstroke had double swords and was amazing with them and Oliver beat him 1.5 years ago.  Oliver beat RAG, the man who gave the special forces nightmares for years, six months ago, and now a tiny little female SWAT cop armed with just a knife can take him by surprise and hold him hostage while Quentin speechifies for five minutes.  There's just no way that's not a lessening of his S1-S3 abilities.

Edited November 2, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Carrie Ann]

Well, I think there IS a way, and I've tried to make clear that this is just my opinion. Personally, I don't require a full background and life story of every baddie in order to believe that they might be able to bring down Oliver, and particularly not in these instances, for reasons I've already stated a few times.

 

I think maybe what's happening is that, in previous seasons when Oliver's been (temporarily) bested, he had to get himself out of the tight spot, so we ultimately got that affirmation that he was still the superior fighter. (Or we just didn't care if Dig was the one who saved his ass, because he's Dig and we love him.) For me, nothing I've seen made me feel like Oliver couldn't have gotten out of it himself if he needed to, so that hasn't bugged me, personally. What has bugged me, and what may also be contributing to this overall feeling that Oliver's fighting prowess is being lessened, is the amount of time. People are right that in 402, in the big opening fight scene, Oliver stands above it all and watches while the other three do the fighting. It's stupid. That doesn't make me feel like his power has been lessened; it makes me feel like the show is selling something else right now, and they're selling it way too hard.

[kismet]

@Carrie Ann, I completely agree.

 

It's the problem with having a team that's fighter, fighter, fighter, fighter, hacker. There's no variety of functions during action scenes with four people doing the same thing [uh, fighting bad guys], so Oliver's basically being diluted into sameness.

Not true!!! There is one crucial member of the team that stands there screams & poses - this is a vital & key component to all takedowns :)

 

The team is more - fighter, fighter, fighter, hacker & the MVP screamer. There is your variety :)

 

In all seriousness - I do think there needs to be a variety of skills on a multi-person crime team. That's just logical. Every team needs variety, its inherent in why we create a team to maximize success by utilizing different strengths. I actually think one of the reasons the show had TQ train the way they did under MM's tutelage (minus the mind-raping) was so she could have the LoA skills that SL brought to the team. As much as I loved Roy in the end, a lot of his skills were OQ-lite. He was a mean parkourer but he didn't have the hands combat with weapons skills that TA was missing.

[kismet]

If I am going to fanwank why OQ's performance may be a little off this season in the field. It is because he is spending his nights & his stamina on more important vigorous activities with FS on the regular ;)

 

Realistically, I know the script demands OQ skills be weakened for plot & prop (aka PROT) purposes.

 

The best way for them to fix their problem is to have less group action scenes for every episode and every fight scene. Switch it up. Have some solo, duo & trios taking down crime. Having the whole team out there diminishes just how “talented” TA is or is not. It shouldn’t take 4 people to take down every bad guy group. I also think it would help to make the bigger moments bigger when they do come down the pike.

[AyChihuahua]

Hi! Thanks for reading my review. I’m glad you liked it!

http://laurawritesabout.tumblr.com/

 

"As much as I tend to rail on the writers, I’m not going to blame the marginalization of Oliver’s fighting skills on them. I think that the decision to promote the other muscle members of Team Arrow 3.0 to equal standing with Oliver put Guggenheim and Co. at the executive level in a tough position of how to give the impression of an egalitarian field squad when we had three seasons of evidence that Oliver is a truly exceptional fighter. Archer Oliver beat speedster Barry when Barry was in super-rage-aholic mode, for heaven’s sake!

To try to equalize the fighters of Team Arrow 3.0 as quickly as possible, the most convenient route was to show off the newbies while presenting that the original vigilante can no longer cut it on his own. This has been Arrow showing rather than just telling, but the determination to sell Team Arrow 3.0 as a group of equals as as early as possible in the fourth season has been at the cost of Oliver’s abilities. There are some aspects of the storytelling that just don’t work at Arrow’s absurd pace of churning through plots, and the action sequences of Team Arrow 3.0 have fallen short thus far."

 

"My problem is with the handling of Team Arrow 3.0. Personally, I think that Oliver’s earned abilities have been marginalized toward the ordinary end of the vigilantism spectrum to try to sell how super mega awesome great the team is together. There’s not supposed to be a leader of the team, and so Oliver hasn’t been allowed to be the best in the field. Now that Digg has been lumped in with Laurel and Thea as equal partners, he’s part of the problem in the team action scenes. None of the members of Team Arrow 2.0 complement Oliver when the muscle members of Team Arrow 3.0 are in the field together; instead, they overshadow him.

I loved Oliver and Digg out in the field together at the end of 4x01 and in their scenes together in 4x03. Team Arrow 2.0 as a fighting as a single flashy unit alongside Oliver all by his lonesome is what has been lessening the impact of Oliver’s abilities.

I could slightly excuse away the loss to Anarky. Anarky’s defining trait was his total craziness, and Oliver did spend most of the episode concerned with his sister. Anarky had a dangerous weapon and was shown to have the reflexes to avoid being clobbered into a puddle of anarchist goo long enough to jab Oliver with his cattle prod. If Anarky had been an outlier, I would have been okay.

But Liza in 4x04 beating Oliver was too much. It doesn’t matter how much training she had as a member of the anti-vigilante task force; she’s not a large woman. We’ve seen Oliver defeat Sara and Nyssa largely because of his size, and Liza being able to get the best of him was ridiculous."

Edited November 3, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[theacostov]

I personally felt Oliver would and should have been able to get himself out of the situation with the cop, or actually not get in that position in the first place. The only reason was so QL could have his speech. I actually wish she'd held QL hostage with the knife and had Oliver aim his arrow at her but QL talks her down. Same thing is achieved but Oliver doesn't look like his skills have been diminished.

[tv echo]

ITA.  I thought that Oliver's LOA training with Ra's and Malcolm (plus whatever other training he had while he was away, his continued training, and his years of fighting experience) would've given him situational awareness, the ability to ignore pain (the knife stab), and the ability to get out of a garotte hold.

Edited November 3, 2015 by tv echo

[KirkB]

I haven't watched the scene since the episode aired, but recall finding it odd that Oliver wasn't paying more attention to the specifically trained and equipped to fight him cop tied up with the bola arrow. Not noticing her cutting herself loose and her managing to get anywhere near him. Plus where the hell was the rest of the team? I know they wouldn't have been of much use in that situation but they did a cool walking away shot and they seemed to disappear.

Edited November 3, 2015 by KirkB

[bijoux]

I haven't watched the scene since the episode aired, but recall finding it odd that Oliver wasn't paying more attention to the specifically trained and equipped to fight him cop tied up with the bola arrow. Not noticing her cutting herself loose and her managing to get anywhere near him. Plus where the hell was the rest of the team? I know they wouldn't have been of much use in that situation but they did a cool walking away shot and they seemed to disappear.

 

This is my biggest gripe, that he wasn't paying attetion to his surroundings. It's kind of his thing? He was preaching it to Roy while he was still just his informant. But I'm starting to think that the reason for this is to have Oliver going all Arrow Smash later on in the seasson (no spoiler, just speculation since it seems inevitable) to be all the more jarring. I think the audience would have picked if they used a lighter touch but I can see them rationalizing it this way.

[AyChihuahua]

While I wish we had seen at least one of Oliver's apologies to Digg, I really appreciate that he didn't try to justify his actions or make excuses.  I don't want to restart the whole discussion re whether he was justified, I just appreciate that Oliver didn't try to do it, that instead he accepted responsibility and just asked for another chance.

 

Way to grow emotionally/as a person, Oliver!  I'm so proud of you so far this season, and I haven't wanted to punch you really hard in the face at all yet!

[kismet]

I haven't watched the scene since the episode aired, but recall finding it odd that Oliver wasn't paying more attention to the specifically trained and equipped to fight him cop tied up with the bola arrow. Not noticing her cutting herself loose and her managing to get anywhere near him. Plus where the hell was the rest of the team? I know they wouldn't have been of much use in that situation but they did a cool walking away shot and they seemed to disappear.

Why would the team stay around to help the hired help? Clearly they had a very important arms crossing w/ side-eye conference to get to.

Sorry just a little bitter. OQ has to have his talents reduced to build up the team onscreen. But in actuality there is no team ts just a group of people fighting at the same time. I want to feel some level of camaraderie & teammwork, but the new TA just keeps on failing to impress on all levels.

[BkWurm1]

But in actuality there is no team ts just a group of people fighting at the same time. I want to feel some level of camaraderie & teammwork, but the new TA just keeps on failing to impress on all levels.

 

This.  Right now they are a bunch of co-workers just putting in the hours.  It's all so cold and distant.  The closest thing to "team" moments was Oliver smiling at Speedy one time but that was before she started showing her blood lust.  The new group hasn't gelled. 

[tv echo]

Oliver also taught situational awareness to Barry.

[zxy556575]

I only recently started watching and am halfway through season 2. Liking the show overall but Oliver's unchanging, ugly beard-scruff bugs me so much! Perhaps I'll be treated to a shave in upcoming episodes but I doubt it. I also hate his haircut, but that's slightly less intense.

 

Whew, Aaaaand breathe.

[BkWurm1]

I only recently started watching and am halfway through season 2. Liking the show overall but Oliver's unchanging, ugly beard-scruff bugs me so much! Perhaps I'll be treated to a shave in upcoming episodes but I doubt it. I also hate his haircut, but that's slightly less intense.

 

Whew, Aaaaand breathe.

Yeah...I'd make peace with the beard.  Sorry (not sorry, I like it a bit too much) 

 

Since you haven't started season three yet, start prepping for lowered expectations.  Some great moments but lots of whatthehell mixed in too.  And not in a good way. I feel like I'm doing a public service. 

Edited November 5, 2015 by BkWurm1

[DeadZeus]

I literally made an account here just to ask this because it's driving me nuts.

Oliver saved Walter and beat over 10 men at once in hand to hand combat. Oliver also saved Felicity from an underground casino beating over 10 armed men in the process. He beat Malcolm, Slade and Rha's Al Ghul. Easily 3 of the most dangerous people on earth and he was trained by all 3 of them.

And now in S4 he gets his ass beat by a dude with an electric stick, a dude that throws with cards and lets himself get shanked in the back by Star City cop?

I LOVE this show but the fact Oliver is becoming a weakling even after being trained by the most deadly people on the planet is really ruining the experience for me.

Am i the only one annoyed by this?

[AyChihuahua]

I literally made an account here just to ask this because it's driving me nuts.

Oliver saved Walter and beat over 10 men at once in hand to hand combat. Oliver also saved Felicity from an underground casino beating over 10 armed men in the process. He beat Malcolm, Slade and Rha's Al Ghul. Easily 3 of the most dangerous people on earth and he was trained by all 3 of them.

And now in S4 he gets his ass beat by a dude with an electric stick, a dude that throws with cards and lets himself get shanked in the back by Star City cop?

I LOVE this show but the fact Oliver is becoming a weakling even after being trained by the most deadly people on the planet is really ruining the experience for me.

Am i the only one annoyed by this?

Tons of people are pissed off about it.  There are lots of conversations on the subject in various threads, plus a comment from the actor (Stephen Amell) on his Facebook page that pretty strongly implies he's also pretty irritated by it.

[BkWurm1]

I was ok with what I saw as a pretty weak opening fight in the first episode.  I could actually buy into Oliver being a bit rusty, plus MAGIC! 

 

I made excuses for him with Anarhky (Sp?) because he was so distracted with Thea's problem, plus we got that cool sequence of Oliver actually running around. 

 

Double Down at least surprised him with razor blade cards but still not sure why some trick arrow shots wouldn't take care of it, but hey, in the end, he and Dig working together took him down.  (Even if, lol, Felicity softened him up first)

 

So for three episodes, I had this annoyance over his weaker performance but found ways to get around it.  But the Beyond Redemption was just a mess, from the first fight to the last where he's taken unaware.  Why couldn't that last scene have happened to someone else?  Sure, let Quentin have his speech, but how about Laurel or one of the other team members get shanked in the back rather than Oliver?  Why did it have to be Oliver?  He could have been there listening still, afraid to fire for fear of the damage Lady Cop inflicted to his team member.  Why did they have to make Oliver look bad? 

 

At least in this most recent episode we got back to Oliver having a good reason for holding back, not wanting to hurt Sara. 

 

Still, they need to address the weak way they've "dumbed" his fighting down. 

 

And yet my expectation of that happening soon enough to make me happy are very low.