The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[Amerilla]

Hell, yeah. But it' not going to happen. The show lost that train the day A&E decided to make him the Beast from Beauty and the Beast.

 

Yes and no. I think they lost that train the day they turned him into the Dark One.

 

In Desperate Souls, they positioned him as a cowardly but basically decent man who wanted to protect his child - the only thing of value in his life - and was driven through the fear of losing the child to stumble into a trap that turned him into a Big Bad.It was portrayed in S1 and into mid-S2 as a protective shell over a that original man, and they've mostly conveyed through though Belle, in large part to keep him vaguely human until they introduced Nealfire to the mix. 

 

Belle perceives his true self (his true heart) when she kisses him in Skin Deep and the curse begins to lift from him. The backstory of her freeing the Philip from the curse of the Yaogaui underscored that Rumpel, too, was a cursed persona. (Mr Gold, to an extent, is also a cursed persona, given to him by Regina as part of the Dark Curse 1.0.)

 

The implication through much of the series has been that his redemption, his happy ending, comes at the point when he's strong enough or willing enough to give up the Dark One's power and return to his fully human, original persona - when he can choose love over power. In S2 and early S3, that was shown as something he was struggling with.

 

As soon as they killed Neal off, all that ended, at least for the forseeable future. Belle, as we've seen this arc, is only as relevant to his story as the plot demands. She'll save him in the end, but I don't think it's a given that he won't stay "bad" right until that end.

 

I know a lot of you are enjoying it, but it makes me sad. There's no journey for him anymore. There's no point to his story. He's just a shit-stirrer now - and given that he can't hurt or kill anyone of consequence, that he can't be contained or killed until at least sometime late next season when Robert's contract expires, and we've already seen most of the tools in his bag of tricks, he's no less boring than any of the procession of Big Bads we've seen over the last two seasons. Just more familiar.

[kili]

In Desperate Souls, they positioned him as a cowardly but basically decent man who wanted to protect his child - the only thing of value in his life - and was driven through the fear of losing the child to stumble into a trap that turned him into a Big Bad.

 

I'm not sure I can agree. Would a decent man set fire to a castle full of people, not caring how the innocent would escape? Sure, the Duke deserved a firey death, but what about all those people working in the kitchens, the maids, the old crone in the tower and the kid sweeping out the dungeon? In all likelihood, their lives were put at more risk than the Duke's. Did they deserve that?

 

Also, would a decent man given the choice between temporarily controlling somebody to fix a problem or murdering that person choose murder? Rumple could have ordered Zoso to end the Ogre war or transport him and Bae to a new land far from the Duke and his men. Instead, he chose murder.

 

I think that the Dark Curse did have some of an effect on him, but I also think that the Dark Curse allowed him to act on some of his innate traits - traits he was too scared to act on earlier.  Rumple has always been willing to do whatever it takes to protect himself and his family. He never really much cared how many other people he killed or put at risk to do it.

 

Zoso was willing to die to escape the Dark Curse. Rumple isn't even willing to give his wife a True Love Kiss.

 

It was portrayed in S1 and into mid-S2 as a protective shell over a that original man, and they've mostly conveyed through though Belle, in large part to keep him vaguely human until they introduced Nealfire to the mix.

 

Is it a protective shell or a magnifying glass?

[Amerilla]

Would a decent man set fire to a castle full of people, not caring how the innocent would escape?

 

If his child was about to be taken away and killed? Yes. The desperation of a parent to save their child was a massive part of the entire plot of S1, not just for Rumpel for every main character and most of the minor ones.

 

Rumpel tried to run away with Bae, and when that failed, he was left we few viable options in his mind. If the Dark One, under the guise of the begger, hadn't given him the idea, it seems unlikely that Rumpel would have turned to violent means. 

 

(Is it canon that people died in the fire, or that the entire castle burned? I'm not trying to be an apologist, and I agree it seems logical that people would have died, but I can't remember a reference to it in the episode. Certainly the Duke's men survived, since they were out and about the next day.)

 

Is it a protective shell or a magnifying glass?

 

The show has certainly presented it as a shell. A cane, a crutch, an addiction, a protection, a crocodile skin - this is how they see it.

[KingOfHearts]

 

If his child was about to be taken away and killed? Yes. The desperation of a parent to save their child was a massive part of the entire plot of S1, not just for Rumpel for every main character and most of the minor ones.

I don't really give him a pass on that. Killing many innocent lives just to save your own son from being drafted is not decency. I think he was after the power too after that long speech he gave to begger Zoso in his house.

 

There's too much blood on Rumple's hands even prior to becoming the Dark One for me to count him as a decent person. After putting all that against how he treated Milah, it's hard for me to see him as a good person. I believe there was more hope for him then than now, however.

 

 

Certainly the Duke's men survived, since they were out and about the next day.

I'm not sure they were even there. If they caught Bae and Rumple in the woods the night before, they were probably on night patrol again.

 

Edit: Made it less argumentative, haha.

Edited January 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

Is it canon that people died in the fire, or that the entire castle burned?

 

We are told nothing other than he set the castle on fire as a distraction. As his intent was to create a fire bad enough to frighten the Duke out of the castle without being able to have time to retrieve the dagger (a very, very important item), he had to have known he was putting people at risk. If they all escaped, it wasn't because he made sure they did. It was luck.

 

If his child was about to be taken away and killed? Yes. The desperation of a parent to save their child was a massive part of the entire plot of S1, not just for Rumpel for every main character and most of the minor ones.

 

Snow and Charming don't go around sacrificing people to save Emma - they sacrifice Emma to save people. I can't even imagine Charming setting the castle on fire to steal the dagger. He and Snow would have figured out a way to sneak in and steal it. Anna gets the dagger and is very keen to protect her family, but she doesn't kill Rumple. She just orders him not to harm her family and to send her home.

 

One of the things that distinguishes the villains from the heros on this show is that the heros try not to harm innoncent third-parties while trying to save themselves or reach their goals.  Even before he became the Dark One, Rumple showed he only cared about himself and his son.

 

Also, I think Rumple is partially to blame for his situation. His lack of planning does not constitute an emergency that excuses all his actions. He knows there is an Ogre War raging. At what point was he planning on doing something about it?  If some Evil Duke is conscripting people to fight the war, surely he's going to come and conscript your son one day. Don't wait until the night before to try to make a run for it. Smart henchmen will be watching for that. Move sooner when people won't care that you and your 12 year old son are going on a trip. If he'd listened to Milah and moved when she wanted, this may have never even been a problem. But, as usual, pre-Dark One Rumple hides his head in the sand until the situation is dire.

 

It's like he ignored the fact that his son was sick for 4 years, suddenly realizes that his son is going to die unless he gets to the hospital immediately and because he doesn't own a car, he stabs his neighbor to death and steals his car. Yes, he did it to save his son and saving his son is a good thing, but he could have taken action sooner and/or chosen a less lethal way of getting to the hospital.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Also, I think Rumple is partially to blame for his situation.

Backtracking to The Crocodile and Manhattan, his situation with Bae was setup because of him continually putting his own self-preservation over the well-being of those around him. He injured himself so he didn't have to fight in the war and he refused to move for Milah (which, if he did do that, might not have ended up in the Duke's kingdom). My big problem with both pre and post-dagger Rumple is that he's always putting himself over others. His power and security always comes first, even when it comes to Milah, Bae and Belle.

 

Moral lines mean nothing it comes to saving his own crocodile skin.

Edited January 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[legaleagle53]

Backtracking to The Crocodile and Manhattan, his situation with Bae was setup because of him continually putting his own self-preservation over the well-being of those around him. He injured himself so he didn't have to fight in the war and he refused to move for Milah (which, if he did do that, might not have ended up in the Duke's kingdom). My big problem with both pre and post-dagger Rumple is that he's always putting himself over others. His power and security always comes first, even when it comes to Milah, Bae and Belle.

 

Moral lines mean nothing it comes to saving his own crocodile skin.

 

Ah, but the reason that he gave for injuring himself was that the Seer had predicted that he would die if he fought, and he didn't want Baelfire to have to grow up without a father the way Rumpel himself did when Malcolm abandoned him.  Of course, the irony is that that is exactly what happened -- because Rumpel was too much of a coward to follow Baelfire into the Land without Magic, Baelfire was forced to grow up without him, which is why adult Baelfire (Neal) wanted nothing to do with Rumpel hundreds of years later when Rumpel finally did find him again.

[KAOS Agent]

There is also the fact that Rumpel told Cora that his magical motivation (the thing he uses to power his magic) is the hatred of the people who treated him badly as a coward. He said something like how he imagined crunching the veins in their necks or something equally gross. Now I think the Dark One's curse may have made his thoughts about revenge on these people really nasty because most people don't fantasize about killing in that manner, but there is most definitely a strain of very dark anger running through pre-curse Rumpelstiltskin.

 

Give him all the power in the world and he runs around only serving himself even though it wouldn't hurt him a bit to help others. If his true heart is still there like Belle believes, why does it never assert itself? It seems like the only trait we ever see of Rumpel is his cowardice. Given that the cowardly nature of his original self does shine though, why doesn't anything else? It appears that it doesn't exist. 

Edited January 10, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

Given that the cowardly nature of his original self does shine though, why doesn't anything else?

I think saying "magic me made me do it" is kind of a cop-out. The mileage may vary, but I don't believe the dagger changed all that much immediately. His power lust was already there, but magic let him finally use it. Take his speech at Neal's grave, for example. He said that telling Bae that everything was going to be okay made him finally feel like he was in command. That's what he wants, and it's what he always wanted - power.

 

He didn't really love Bae either, in my opinion. He treated him more like a possession than a son. Taking care of him was more about not being like his dad than actually loving his son.

Edited January 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

He didn't really love Bae either, in my opinion.

 

I agree. Rumple loved the concept of a son - he didn't love the individual. Rumple was determined to be the best Papa ever (unlike his dad), but he consistently did things that were very upsetting to the child (like killing people and giving him things he took from other people). Bae/Neal is only ever able to change his behavior by stating outright ultimatums (Neal has to order Rumple to help Charming with a cure).

 

Regina initially had the same problem with her relationship with Henry. She loved the concept of being a Mom, but she didn't give much thought to the individual. She eventually came to see him to be a person and to modify her actions because she did not want  to upset him. At first, she just did things based on what Henry would want, but she's internalized that behavior and now makes good choices without reference to him (telling Hood to go with his wife over the town line). She's not all the way there yet, but she is making some progress.

 

Meanwhile, Rumple has regressed. With Bae, he just ignored what Bae wanted or tried to convince him that there was nothing wrong with what he was doing. With Belle, he just freezes her or plans to erase her memories when he does something to upset her. Not doing something to upset her doesn't appear to be an option he considers. Being good  isn't even on the event horizon.

[YaddaYadda]

He didn't really love Bae either, in my opinion. He treated him more like a possession than a son.

 

Bae really had a sad existence when we think about it.  His mom ran away, his father was the village coward.  When Rumple became the Dark One, it becamse harder for Bae to interact with other kids.  When he finally thought he had a chance at starting over in a world that had no magic, his ever coward father was too scared to make that sacrifice.

 

Rumple will forever be a coward, even if he becomes the most powerful person in the world, he will still be a coward.  I thought it was interesting how he stood there over Hook, holding his heart and telling him how he thought he would have crumbled by now at the sight of his demise and then five minutes later, Rumple is the one crying about being banished because he's afraid.  

 

I'm still not really getting where Rumple got that boost of courage at the end of 3A.  Did he smoke a doobie in his shop?  Drink a courage potion?  Did a coward stripping spell?  Did he hit his head really hard when Pan sent him against the furniture?  I mean the man was terrified of cutting his own hand (even though we know he can reattach body parts, he did it with Whale) to remove the cuff but then became willing to sacrifice himself.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm still not really getting where Rumple got that boost of courage at the end of 3A.

Maybe it wasn't courage but rather wanting to die? It was an easy way out for him. He probably knew the seer's prophecy would come to past and he may as well get it over with. Since Pan's Curse was supposedly a fate worse than death, dying was probably the better option.

 

You're absolutely right though - it does conflict with his constant self-preservation. It was for the plot more than anything. The fact he's back in two episodes just shows the emotional element wasn't built to last. I have a feeling they're going to do the same thing with the intense Rumpbelle break-up. Finale drama!

Edited January 10, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[YaddaYadda]

Maybe it wasn't courage but rather wanting to die? It was an easy way out for him. He probably knew the seer's prophecy would come to past and he may as well get it over with. Since Pan's Curse was supposedly a fate worse than death, dying was probably the better option.

 

You're absolutely right though - it does conflict with his constant self-preservation. It was for the plot more than anything. The fact he's back in two episodes just shows the emotional element wasn't built to last.

Interesting take on this.  So even in his "heroism" he's still a coward...well done show!

[Delphi]

Just chiming in off topic during my S2 rewatch.

Milah becomes more horrible of a person if you take in all her fairy backs. She's so bi polar its ridiculous.

Also during the Queen is Dead during the clock tower scene Regina looks so appalled at cora when she's not the focus of the scene. But then chimes in with sassy evil queen snark.

It's visually jarring but shows how clearly Regina wants her mother's love and is kinda sad.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Delphi

[Amerilla]

Snow and Charming don't go around sacrificing people to save Emma - they sacrifice Emma to save people.

 

I don't know if this makes any sense, but I'm less interested in the "woulda- coulda-shoulda" of the characters and their choices than I am in how the writers structure the story. For example, Snow and Charming would go around sacrificing people to save Emma if the writers decided that they would, and depending on how they did it, it could be a way to add depth and complexity to characters, or just cheap drama.

 

One of the ways I found S1 superior was that they could tell essentially the same story, told in different ways. Rumpel losing Bae and the Charmings losing Emma was the same story. In both cases, desperate parents are backed into a corner trying to save their children from forces much stronger than themselves. In both cases, the Dark One offers them a deal - dressed up as a suggestion or a prohecy - that gives them a path to save not just their children, but their kingdoms as well. In both cases, it goes sideways, due to the manipulations of the "dark" magic represented by Zoso and Rumpel and of the "light" magic represented by the Blue Fairy, and they end up being separating from their children in ways they couldn't have anticipated when they started out. Then, those two children meet in this world and produce a new child, who becomes the key to unlocking the curse and reuniting them all. As "fairy tale" stories go, it's pretty solid.

 

In S1-S2, I would have put money on Rumpel being "redeemed" fairly early on in the series and Regina becoming the show's ongoing Big Bad, simply because Regina was the one they didn't tie in to the Charming-Stiltskin bloodline and the one they didn't give a HEA she could actually attain. In that, Regina has always struck me as far more unpredictable and dangerous than Rumple, because her wants and needs are an endless game of whack-a-mole, and because her anger is quicker to flair. That was much more evident in S1, but shifted as Lana/Regina became A&E's darling.

 

Maybe it wasn't courage but rather wanting to die? It was an easy way out for him. He probably knew the seer's prophesy would come to past and he may as well get it over with. Since Pan's Curse was supposedly a fate worse than death, dying was probably the better option.

 

I disagree. Rumpel clearly didn't want to die. He and Bae had just reconciled, he and Belle had just reunited, his fear of that prophesy was behind him. Pan, long since having lost his "World's Greatest Dad" coffee mug, was about to kill all of that, simply because he could and because it would cause Rumpel pain. If there was a motivation beyond fear that Belle and Bae were about to be murdered, it didn't come across in the script or in Robert's performance. 

 

In the end, I don't think it mattered if he had the cuff on or not, since they'd already established that even with his powers, he'd die in the process of killing Pan. Doing it without the cuff made it a "braver" act, because we hadn't really seen him be able to do that sort of thing without the Dark One's influence

 

Rumple loved the concept of a son - he didn't love the individual.

 

How Rumpel and the Charmings reconciled their concepts of Bae and Emma with the reality of Bae and Emma should have provided a couple of seasons' worth of emotional fuel. And a family discount with Archie.

[FabulousTater]

One of the ways I found S1 superior was that they could tell essentially the same story, told in different ways. Rumpel losing Bae and the Charmings losing Emma was the same story. In both cases, desperate parents are backed into a corner trying to save their children from forces much stronger than themselves.

Meh, I think that's hogwash. Rumple had choices and he always chose power. He didn't lose Bae because of machinations beyond his control. Rumpy lost Bae because he let him go on purpose. Rumpy may have come to regret that choice, but it was a choice he made of his power and cowardice over his son. Rumple chooses power over everything and everyone. He did it to Bae and he did it (and continues to do the same) to Belle. Comparing Rumple's situation to Snow and Charming's is like saying every planet in the universe is the same because it has mass. Certainly, all people reduced to their most basic building blocks appear all the same (we're all carbon based life forms that rely on a oxygen nitrogen rich atmosphere to breathe), but then you've removed anything that makes them actual individuals. You've scrubbed the salient points from Rumple's story with "sin bleach" to somehow make Rumple and Snowing's stories appear as "the same story".

 

Snow and Charming, because of Rumple's machinations and his duel quests for power and to retrieve his son without losing that power (because he wants his cake and to eat it too) were forced to choose between letting Emma die or send her into the unknown hoping that she would come back. Yes, Gepetto (and to lesser degree the Blue Fairy because she told Gepetto to fess up and do the right thing ) played a part as well in separating Snow, David, and Emma, but again, at the root Snow and Charming's concern was about saving Emma. They weren't quivering chicken shits to afraid of letting go of power so that they could keep their kid. Snow and Charming were willing to be separated from each other (which we know they care more about each other than anyone else) to be able to keep Emma safe and hang-on to her. That's not at all the same choice as Rumpy's.

 

Rumple's story with Bae was always rooted in Rumple choosing his own cowardice and his own thirst for power over Bae. Rumple made his own bed of misery. Snow and Charming's story with Emma has been about how due to outside forces were left with sucky choices all around -- sucky choices that were forced upon them due to Rumple's own selfish manipulative actions and Regina's psychosis.

Edited January 11, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

The show lost that train the day A&E decided to make him the Beast from Beauty and the Beast.

Yeah, the further they go with it, the less it works, no matter how many ballroom scenes they do. There's really nothing about this story that maps to Beauty and the Beast. The Beast was a decent (if poorly socialized) person with a fearsome appearance, but Rumple actually does bad things. That "Kill the Beast!" sequence in the Disney movie would take on a whole different character if the villagers were heading to the Beast's castle with pitchforks and torches because the Beast had murdered someone who stood in between him and something he wanted, ripped out the tongue of someone who criticized him for doing that, and tortured everyone who came near his castle. In the stories, the Beast actually wants to break his curse. He doesn't resist it because he likes the strength and power he gets from being the Beast. In fact, that's the point of the whole story. He demands that the Beauty come live with him because he thinks she has the qualities that might make her be the one who can break his curse. We don't know why Rumple demanded Belle, other than "magic always comes at a price, dearie." In the story, the Beauty is an honored guest, given a nice room and attended by servants (there's even a whole musical number about this in the Disney version). That makes it a little less of a leap when she comes to like the Beast. She wasn't treated like a prisoner, kept locked up in a cell, and made a slave to do all the domestic labor in the castle while the Beast denigrated her and mocked her. The only real similarity to the story, other than the Stockholm Syndrome, is the fact that the Beast isn't immediately and obviously loveable, but then Rumple isn't that great even when you get to know him. He really is a bad person. He's a bit of a sadist because he's not just getting what he wants, but he's hurting people along the way and reveling in their pain. For instance, I could have bought that he killed his wife in a fit of rage that he later regretted, but now he's gloating about having killed her, so there goes that idea.

 

Then there was this interview bit mentioned on the spoilers thread (non-spoilery because it's about the past):

But he began the season with honorable intentions — he really was going to give Belle the knife – but when he saw the [sorcerer’s] hat, that made him realize, ‘I did the noble thing and it ended up with my son dying and me being a slave. So if I can never have to wake up and worry about someone getting my dagger, why can’t I have everything?’

Apparently, this is the latest explanation for his recent behavior. I guess it supersedes the "PTSD" explanation, since this sounds like a deliberate choice while PTSD isn't a conscious thought process. Not that we saw any of this onscreen.

 

But how could he have started with honorable intentions when he apparently switched the daggers either right away or immediately after giving it to Belle, and the first thing he did was kill Zelena and then use Belle as an alibi? I could actually have believed the PTSD idea and the unease at the thought of ever being controlled again, but it would have had to play out in a different way -- like he gave the dagger to Belle honestly, but then had nightmares or otherwise freaked out and switched daggers, and then it was an incremental thing with him at first trying to behave like she controlled him even if she didn't, then gradually doing more and more things she'd never want him to do while feeling guilty about it, and then finding the hat and thinking it was the solution to his problems.

 

I really don't like the "I tried being good, and what did it get me?" thing because it comes awfully close to Regina's "I haven't killed anyone in a while, so where's my happy ending, dammit?" attitude. And if they really go there, they've opened a can of worms because Rumple giving up on being good because all he got for sacrificing himself was his son being killed and him being turned into Zelena's puppet is actually a lot more understandable than Regina pouting about not being able to keep her boyfriend. Not that this excuses Rumple's behavior, and at least Regina hasn't yet gone back to full-on evil because of losing her boyfriend. But still, if it's villainous for him to feel this way, then how is it a great thing for Regina to feel this way?

[KingOfHearts]

 

But still, if it's villainous for him to feel this way, then how is it a great thing for Regina to feel this way?

There's a double standard here, and 4B looks to be the same way. It's great if Regina wants to find the Author and force him to give her a happy ending, but if Rumple and the Queens do it, it's evil. I really don't care if Regina's trying to "change". Coercing someone to give you what you want is not good behavior and it's no better than what Rumple plans to do.

Edited January 11, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

There's a double standard here, and 4B looks to be the same way. It's great if Regina wants to find the Author and force him to give her a happy ending, but if Rumple and the Queens do it, it's evil. I really don't care if Regina's trying to "change". Coercing someone to give you what you want is not good behavior and it's no better than what Rumple plans to do.

Oh, but, quoting Regina's stupid son, she "has come so far".

Yeah, everything about this storyline is idiotic and makes no sense. My big doubt here is if the writers see the contradiction (what Regina wants to do is cool, Rumple is a very bad boy) and they don't care, or if they are so blinded for their love for Regina that they don't even see it. I really don't know which one is worse.

Edited January 11, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Shanna Marie]

Coercing someone to give you what you want is not good behavior and it's no better than what Rumple plans to do.

Even aside from the coercion issue, just the fact that she thinks that something's wrong that must be corrected because she didn't get this one thing she wants -- when she's actually somewhat responsible for not having it -- is a bad sign. She was the one who chose not to go into that tavern and talk to the guy who'd been guaranteed to be her soulmate. Instead, she chose to stay in her unhappy marriage so she could get revenge on a child. Later, she was the one who barged into another ruler's court and arrested one of his guests. If she hadn't arrested "Princess Leia," then Marian wouldn't have escaped and been brought to the future. Or if she'd never arrested Marian, she and Robin probably wouldn't have started anything and she wouldn't have known what she was missing. She's experiencing the consequences of bad choices she made, and yet she thinks this means something is fundamentally wrong with the universe that must be rewritten.

 

Rumple has more room to complain because bad things happened to him after he made good choices. He sacrificed himself and saved the town, and his son got killed. He then finally, for once in his life, chose something else -- his son -- over power, and his son still died and he ended up as the prisoner and puppet of a psycho witch. He's got a lot more reason to want to complain to the Management about something being wrong with this situation. That doesn't excuse the subsequent actions he took, and the story would have made more sense if we'd actually seen some of this rationale in his thought process, and he's got enough negative karma built up that he could probably save everyone in town several times over and rescue puppies without balancing the scales enough for him to deserve a happy ending, but at least he had a direct negative consequence of him making the right decision to complain about rather than complaining because things didn't work out for him after he made a series of bad choices.

[FabulousTater]

That doesn't excuse the subsequent actions he took, and the story would have made more sense if we'd actually seen some of this rationale in his thought process, and he's got enough negative karma built up that he could probably save everyone in town several times over and rescue puppies without balancing the scales enough for him to deserve a happy ending, but at least he had a direct negative consequence of him making the right decision to complain about rather than complaining because things didn't work out for him after he made a series of bad choices.

But Nealfire killing himself was not a direct consequence of Rumple's actions so I don't see how that should be tied to Rumple's "I did something not for selfish reasons and my son still died." Rumple's big sacrifice of killing Pan and himself was his happy ending -- that is, it was as good as it was going to get for Rumple. If Rumple hadn't killed Pan and himself Belle and Nealfire were going to die, so the best happy ending Rumple could get was to know they would survive even if he couldn't, so in Rumple's mind that was a "happy ending" of sorts. But Nealfire died because of his own actions, not because Rumple was bad (though Rumple is a bad, bad, very bad man and deserves to be slapped silly with more karmic justice than this show will ever actually drop on him). Actually, Nealfire's selfish and moronic actions caused Rumple to be captured and enslaved by Zelena and then lose Nealfire himself, so if anything, Rumple didn't get a happy ending because of his own son! HA! (that's just poetic)

 

I guess I could see Rumple going full dark because it didn't get him anything in the end, but the show didn't really approach it like that. It was more like "I can have all my power, none of the downside of the dagger as my leash, and my silly little wife too? Okay, I'm in! Who do I have to kill?"

 

But really, no one gets everything they wanted (especially on this show) even if they do the right thing because you can't control other people (even those that are important to your happiness) and there's no guarantee that they won't do something stupid or bad to get themselves killed or that will negatively impact your happy ending. Seriously, even the "good guys" lives totally suck. I don't know where any of these idiots are getting the idea that anyone has had a happy ending...oh wait, I know. Stupid ass Henry. Dumbass little twerp. (Why isn't he dead yet?! Why?!) (No lie, this show would be 200 times better if they killed off Regina AND Henry. )

 

Ugh, all this happy ending BS on this show is written so badly. There's no logic to it! The writers. Are. Idiots.

Edited January 13, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Shanna Marie]

But Nealfire died because of his own actions, not because Rumple was bad. Actually, Nealfire's bad actions caused Rumple to be captured and enslaved by Zelena and then lose Nealfire himself, so if anything, Rumple didn't get a happy ending because of his own son! HA!

True, it's not a direct cause/effect, but then neither was Regina's behavior and having or losing Robin. Regina's acting like she's been good, therefore she deserves Robin, and what happens with his life and his choices have nothing to do with how good or bad Regina is. Both of them (well, Rumple according to the latest interview. It could change) seem to be taking the approach of "I've done something good, so why are bad things now happening to me?"

 

Really, when you think about it, Neal's death could be considered a result of Rumple doing all the things he did to find his son. If he'd left Neal alone and hadn't done the curse, Neal probably would have lived out an ordinary life. He wouldn't have reconciled with his father and may have gone through his life with that bitterness, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have died to revive the Dark One. But by arranging the curse, Rumple put things in motion that brought Neal back into the kinds of events Bae made a point of escaping from in the first place, and that got him killed.

 

And really, no one gets everything they wanted (especially on this show) even if they do the right thing because you can't control other people (that are important to your happiness) and there's no guarantee that they won't do something stupid or bad to get themselves killed and impact your happy ending.

And therein lies part of the idiocy of Operation Avoid Personal Responsibility/Villains Should Get Happy Endings. The good guys don't get absolutely happy endings, either. Marian was good and she was imprisoned, sent to another world, was frozen, learned that her husband wanted to leave her for her tormentor, then got banished from everything familiar with a husband she knew no longer loved her -- all things that were someone else's choice. Belle's a hero and she learned that her husband was lying to her and deceiving her and was cheating on her with power -- his choices. And then there's all the stuff Snow, David and Emma went through in spite of being good because of Regina's choices. If the villains would stop being villains, then the odds would improve for everyone, including the villains, to have happier endings.

[FabulousTater]

True, it's not a direct cause/effect, but then neither was Regina's behavior and having or losing Robin. Regina's acting like she's been good, therefore she deserves Robin, and what happens with his life and his choices have nothing to do with how good or bad Regina is. Both of them (well, Rumple according to the latest interview. It could change) seem to be taking the approach of "I've done something good, so why are bad things now happening to me?"

Yes, IA. I didn't mean to imply that Regina's whining of "why don't I have a happy ending with my sparkly Boo-boo-Robin-kitty" was a direct cause/effect of her behavior either (Well, not completely. She left sparkly Boo-boo-Robin-kitty in the pub when she could've first met him...so she's reaping what she sowed).

 

Bad crap happens to everyone, but the difference here is that the villains had it coming/brought it upon themselves and really should have no room to complain when they've done nothing but bring pain, death and destruction upon everyone else. But instead of everyone telling these a-holes "Hey, jackass! Take a lesson from all of this:  Being a villainous asshat doesn't pay. You're unhappy because of you! Look at your life! Look at your choices! ", they're saying, "Aww, you're right evil person (usually named Rumple or Regina) who has tried to kill me 2837429347 times. You deserve happiness because for the last 365 days you didn't kill anyone! Yay, you get a one year murder free chip! I mean, you did try to kill some people, but you didn't succeed in your murderous plan so who cares! You deserve all the happiness. I just don't know why killing hundreds of people should stop the universe/an author/karma from giving you anything but eternal happiness. It's a mystery *SMH*"

 

I just think this is all so stupid it hurts. And the further they go with it the more painfully dumb it gets (which I didn't think was possible). Just when you thought the show found the bottom of the idiot barrel there's another episode brought to you by the writers of ONCE that says, "Wait, there's more [dumb]!"  These writers have infinite layers of stupid.

Edited January 13, 2015 by FabulousTater

[YaddaYadda]

Rumple has more room to complain because bad things happened to him after he made good choices. He sacrificed himself and saved the town, and his son got killed. He then finally, for once in his life, chose something else -- his son -- over power, and his son still died and he ended up as the prisoner and puppet of a psycho witch. He's got a lot more reason to want to complain to the Management about something being wrong with this situation.

 

But they keep beating us over the head with the "All magic comes with a price".  Well this is it.  Rumple's magic cost him his son not once, but twice.  It's karma at the end of the day and he still doesn't understand.  Belle banished him from SB and instead of telling himself well, I need to go back and make amends with everyone, he is instead finding these super villains so that he can get what he wants.  The price of magic seems to be a retroactive one.  I won't cry for Rumple if Belle dies, same as I won't cry for Regina if Robin never comes back (but she must have her happy ending, so whatever...)

 

It's about time these people paid their price for using magic in such an ill manner.

[Mari]

It makes me think of that episode of Friends when Joey was trying to find a selfless-good-deed. Are Regina and Rumple's good deeds actually an effort to be good or an effort to make good happen to them?

 

If Rumple sacrificed himself at the town line for the benefit of the town that is great, but if he did it to rid himself of an evil parent and gain back the trust of his son...

 

I feel like with Regina it is similar to that student who goofs off all semester, skips class, fails tests, doesn't do homework and then right before the final he or she studies like crazy. Does that student deserve the same grade as the one who studied and worked all semester? You can see both arguments, but I'm always one to appreciate the benefits of consistent behavior and work vs a 23rd hour turn around.

I think a lot of it comes down to motive and follow-up.

 

If the 23hr turnaround comes with actual follow-through that shows it was sincere--apologizing, returning hearts, actual fairly consistent improvement?    I can live with a 23hr turnaround. 

 

Occasionally, you see comments about why Hook changed his ways.  While I personally think his turning back to help had more to do with Baelfire memories and Emma's offer of something more honorable and meaningful than piracy, I am also okay with his motive being he was interested in starting something with Emma. . . provided  that was only the reason he did the self-eval and decided he needed to make changes.

 

In Hook's case, if wanting Emma made him take a long hard look at himself and motive to make changes, I'm okay with it--as long as he continues to improve and that does not stay the reason he's different.

 

But if you combine the selfish motive with continued selfish behavior?  That wasn't just a 23hr turnaround.  It wasn't a change.  It wasn't a heroic deed, and I'm far more likely to see it as manipulation or self-interest.

[Shanna Marie]

To me, Regina is like the person who did the frantic last-hour cramming and then threw a fit when she didn't get an A after doing all that work. By golly, she changed her ways and started doing the same thing the good students had been doing all semester (even if it was just at the last minute), so why was she stuck with a lousy B? The professor was obviously out to get her. Meanwhile, she didn't actually learn anything in the class and didn't retain any of the material she crammed.

 

And then next semester, she figures she'll change her ways, so she goes to class (but doesn't actually listen while she's in there, because what does the professor know?) and she goes to the library with her books every day (but doesn't actually read them). Everyone can see that she's being a good student, so she figures she should get the same grades as the other people who are also going to class and to the library, without realizing that these other people are listening, taking notes, reading, and studying, and that's why they're getting good grades.

 

I think Hook comes closer to someone who reaches that last hour, realizes he really screwed up the whole semester by blowing off classes and not studying, crams furiously, then is relieved when he squeaks by with a passing grade that he knows he probably doesn't deserve. Next semester, he's all in -- going to class, taking notes, studying, doing the reading, spending time in the library, and going to study sessions. He might be occasionally tempted by a night out with his old friends, but then he feels bad and goes back to work.

 

As for the "selfless good deed" concept, there's a difference between doing something that you see needs to be done and doing something so people will think you're good or even so that you can feel good. The most selfless would be someone who sees, say, an old lady who needs help crossing the street and offers to help just because that person needs help. Then there's the person who sees the need and thinks "Aha! A good deed I can do!" and then feels self-congratulatory for having done it. Then there's the person who helps because someone else is nearby and they want that person to think they're good. They might not have done it if they hadn't been watching. And then there's the person who does it because she expects to be showered with good things because she did a good deed and wants the person she helped to be beholden to her.

 

I would say that Regina tends to veer among feeling self-congratulatory for having done something good, wanting to be noticed for doing good and expecting to be showered with rewards. I'm not sure how much good she'd do if she knew nobody would notice or if there was no chance of her being blamed for the bad thing that happened if she didn't stop it. I do think she got to "it's the right thing" in suggesting that Robin needed to go be with his wife in the outside world, but she doesn't get full credit, since she just had the idea and the decision was still up to Robin. All she did really was not try to hold him back. Though there, you'd think his behavior would give her second thoughts about him. Who'd want to be with a man who has to have someone else suggest to him that maybe he shouldn't send his wife and child alone into a strange world where he'll never be able to see them again?

Edited January 13, 2015 by Shanna Marie

[kili]

Though there, you'd think his behavior would give her second thoughts about him. Who'd want to be with a man who has to have someone else suggest to him that maybe he shouldn't send his wife and child alone into a strange world where he'll never be able to see them again?

 

Robin should have wanted to go because otherwise either he or Marian would be separated from their son. I don't really understand what value he adds to being in a strange land since he has no more knowledge than Marian does. It didn't even appear that the Merry Men got the "Storybrooke Download" and even characters with that download would struggle outside of Storybrooke. Regina's happy ending is not being stuck with that loser. Meanwhile, Marian is made to continue to suffer.

 

To further the student analogy, Rumple is the guy who doesn't study at all, but uses his massive wealth to buy the exam answers or steals them himself. This works beautifully for years until he finally gets caught and booted out of university. He too feels hard done by.

[YaddaYadda]

To further the student analogy, Rumple is the guy who doesn't study at all, but uses his massive wealth to buy the exam answers or steals them himself. This works beautifully for years until he finally gets caught and booted out of university.

 

But then because he has money and power, he gets to another university because...corruption.

 

I would like to say that Rumple is the most morally bankrupt character on the show, but I'm really not sure at all.  

[Shanna Marie]

To further the student analogy, Rumple is the guy who doesn't study at all, but uses his massive wealth to buy the exam answers or steals them himself.

Or he tortures or otherwise threatens the professors into giving him good grades. Or maybe all of the above. Every so often, he might take an exam honestly if it's in a subject he already knows well and that isn't necessary for his degree. His girlfriend will see this as proof that he really is a good student.

[Mathius]

In S1-S2, I would have put money on Rumpel being "redeemed" fairly early on in the series and Regina becoming the show's ongoing Big Bad, simply because Regina was the one they didn't tie in to the Charming-Stiltskin bloodline and the one they didn't give a HEA she could actually attain.

If that WERE the case, then thank Heavens it was changed! That would have been disgusting: Rumple, the mastermind behind all the evil, including Regina's, and all the pain, including Regina's, gets special treatment from the Charmings and is considered redeemed just because he happens to share BLOOD TIES with them? Blood ties that only happened because his adult son knocked up a teenage girl and then abandoned her to go to jail? Sickening idea.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Mathius

[Serena]

Honestly, it's disgusting for both of them. Quibbling over whether Regina or Rumple are more evil is useless, because when you reach the "mass murder" kind of Evil Threshold, there should be no going back. And the 'they're family' idea (which has been used for both) is so terrible, because it basically sends the message that you should forgive abuse if it comes from family members. With Regina, there's the added grossness that Henry should be grateful for her adopting him.

[Mathius]

^ I never said the forced redemption wasn't disgusting for Regina as well, as it most certainly is and almost everyone here knows it. Rumple getting an "early redemption" due to blood-related family ties would have been sickening, and Regina getting her early redemption through NON-blood-related family ties is sickening.

The only sensible writing choices were neither her or Rumple are redeemed, or they are both redeemed through actual continuous EFFORT on their parts. But instead, Regina is considered redeemed without effort on her part, while Rumple is unredeemed even when he is currently aiming for the EXACT SAME GOAL that the "redeemed" Regina is that the other characters think is such a swell idea on her part. It's a mess all around.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Mathius

[KAOS Agent]

I actually thought they did achieve redemption for Rumpelstiltskin...when he died. However, he did not stay dead and then came back to continue on with his evil ways. Just as I would've bought into Regina's redemption at the end of Season 2 had she actually died, Rumpel would have been redeemed at the end of 3A if he'd stayed dead. Making a sacrifice along with the realization that you are the one who needs to fix the problem and the understanding that your actions mean that you don't get a happy ending are what provide the redemption. The Snow Queen's redemption worked because she did all of this and then stayed dead. Also, her background was less psychopathic killer and more accidental killer with family issues, so she had much less to come back from.

 

Both Regina and Rumpel's characters have made the big sacrifices, but if you don't really sacrifice anything and then come back and repeat the same evil stuff that caused a need for sacrifice and redemption in the first place, then you learned nothing and the redemption is nonexistent. That's where both characters' stories fall down because it's often presented in such a way as to say that if a villain does one good thing, they get a pass on actually working through the huge backlog of apologies and actions required to even gain acceptance.

[Shanna Marie]

Rumple says all the right things about where he's gone wrong and what he's done wrong, but he hasn't changed his actions at all.

 

Regina has changed her actions without changing her attitude at all and without ever admitting that she was wrong.

 

Redemption requires changing both the attitude and the actions. And it's nice if there are still some consequences because there's no get out of jail free card in life.

[KingOfHearts]

 

And it's nice if there are still some consequences because there's no get out of jail free card in life.

One of Regina's issues is that she cares too much about her circumstances and what people think of her. She, even before she went psycho, is so concerned about getting approval that she never acts like her own identity. There's always a facade, whether it be the Evil Queen or St. Redeemed. She's ridiculously insecure and paranoid. "Cora's out to get me! The Author's out to get me! Snow's out to get me! Emma's out to get me!" If she wants to be happy, she needs to realize that she can't make everyone love her and that circumstances don't control her heart. Blaming everything else instead of taking control will always leave her unstable. 

 

She, like everyone else, is responsible for her own happiness. This show portrays happy endings as circumstance-dependent, which is fine for little fairy tales but I don't find it true here.

Edited January 22, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Blaming everything else instead of taking control will always leave her unstable.

 

Her blame casting is a problem, but even if Regina accepts responsibility and takes control, she is still stuck with the problem of not understanding what happiness is. She constantly gets what she wants and then is disappointed that it's not exactly how she pictured it. Instead of adjusting expectations, she gets all whiny and wants more because she deserves it damn it! She's incapable of being satisfied with what she's got and focuses on what she doesn't with no regard to others. This is mirrored by Emma, who also doesn't really understand how to find happiness, but doesn't think she deserves it and tries so hard to get it for everyone else. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

Her blame casting is a problem, but even if Regina accepts responsibility and takes control, she is still stuck with the problem of not understanding what happiness is.

This is what I'm saying - "I'm only be happy if I get x or if y happens" is what her mind set is, and it's the reason she's never happy and it's the reason she can't be consistent. That's what annoyed her so much about Snow - that she could be content in all situations, no matter what was thrown at her. For this, I think Snow is one of the few people on show to actually have her happy ending or an idea of what one actually is.

Edited January 22, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

Exactly. Snow is happy with what she has right now. If Regina were in Snow's situation, it would be whining 24/7 about how she can never be happy because she didn't get to raise her baby. 

[Shanna Marie]

Oh, gosh, if Regina were in Snow's situation, it would be non-stop whining -- Her mother died. Her stepmother didn't really love her. Her father died. She was kicked out of her home and had to live in the woods. Her true love was betrothed to someone else. People were out to get her. She didn't get to be queen even though she was the rightful heir. She had to give up her baby to escape the curse. She had to be a spinster schoolteacher during the curse. She found her husband again, only to have him taken away by a fake wife. He slept with someone else during the curse. She slept with someone else during the curse. She was slut-shamed by the whole town for sleeping with her own husband during the curse. She found her daughter again, but she was already an adult who didn't need a mom. Her castle was destroyed. And that's just for starters. Each one of those things would have been cause for epic angst, whining and complaining about how she couldn't get a fair shake. Regina went all evil because her mother murdered her boyfriend -- the equivalent of just one of Snow's tragedies. Just imagine the level of evil if she'd had Snow's life. And yet she's feeling ill-used because she thinks Snow has a happy ending and she doesn't. (Which kind of makes it look like the current definition of happy ending is purely romantic if Snow has a happy ending because she has a husband and Regina doesn't because she lost her boyfriend.)

[Faemonic]

Which kind of makes it look like the current definition of happy ending is purely romantic if Snow has a happy ending because she has a husband and Regina doesn't because she lost her boyfriend.

What's strange is that I don't even know what happened to the maternal definition of a happy ending. Regina and Emma are kind of co-parenting now but ever since Henry got his memory back Regina's just sort of like, "Henry who? Oh, yeah. Can you help me write a sternly-worded letter to God about how I don't have a very specific boyfriend and have to share something that used to be so important to me but now I forgot because I'm just so angry at Emma Swan because of reasons so I am abysmally miserable. What the hell is a Roland? Henry who?"

[Trek]

The world would not stand for a man like Rumpel as a petty tyrant. Good luck dodging snipers and drones, Rumpel. He tries to rule the world or even take over a small part of it and he'll go down. It doesn't even make any sense.

That’s actually not quite true. America in particular has a very, very long history of actually actively supporting virtually every tyrant in the world - both petty and large - as long as they were non hostile to US interests. Marcos, the Shah, “baby doc” Duvalier, Pinochet, many unelected gulf leaders to this day etc. all got US money and they couldn’t really do much shit in return for it apart from being non-communist, non-jihad or non-whatever… unlike a Rumpletyrant.

 

“I can scry for you the location of a 50billion barrel oil deposit for, oh say, two Navy Seal teams to be assigned to my Island on rotation as ‘honor’ guard for 10 years. Do we have a deal deary?”

 

“What do I want for deradiating every single uranium atom in N. Korea?” Heaheh, I love it when they ask me that.”

 

“I can indeed expunge your part in the Iraq has WMD debacle from collective memory, but all magic comes with a price!”

 

(To a Senator) “I can guarantee you the Presidency in 4 years if your youngest would like to be my apprentice. Deal Deary?”

 

“I have the potion that completely eliminates cocaine addiction right here in my hand dearie. Ah ah ah, I didn’t say it was free.”

 

I can see deals getting done, above and below board. No shortage of demand - I actually have a harder time thinking up things that Rumple would want in return than what people may want from Rumple. His medical abilities alone (complete heals for all but the most serious ailments, re-attach limbs like he did for Whale, conduct non-surgical complete heart transplants in 30 secs with a 100% success rate, and ‘rewind’ people back to youth) is going to make him richer that Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and the world association of plastics surgeons combined.

 

PS. He is also immortal. Does this mean immune to bullets, definitely. Can he create a magi- dome Cora style for anti-air, he’s more powerful than her so that’s a yes. Can he take a nuke? Uhmm, maybe not, but if the US/UK or some other is thinking a strike (don’t forget he absorbed the seers power so has early warning), he “purple-mist vaporates” to China and provides services there. Anyone going to nuke China? No. Rumple lives!

Edited January 26, 2015 by Trek

[legaleagle53]

That’s actually not quite true. America in particular has a very, very long history of actually actively supporting virtually every tyrant in the world - both petty and large - as long as they were non hostile to US interests. Marcos, the Shah, “baby doc” Duvalier, Pinochet, many unelected gulf leaders to this day etc. all got US money and they couldn’t really do much shit in return for it apart from being non-communist, non-jihad or non-whatever… unlike a Rumpletyrant.

 

“I can scry for you the location of a 50billion barrel oil deposit for, oh say, two Navy Seal teams to be assigned to my Island on rotation as ‘honor’ guard for 10 years. Do we have a deal deary?”

 

“What do I want for deradiating every single uranium atom in N. Korea?” Heaheh, I love it when they ask me that.”

 

“I can indeed expunge your part in the Iraq has WMD debacle from collective memory, but all magic comes with a price!”

 

(To a Senator) “I can guarantee you the Presidency in 4 years if your youngest would like to be my apprentice. Deal Deary?”

 

“I have the potion that completely eliminates cocaine addiction right here in my hand dearie. Ah ah ah, I didn’t say it was free.”

 

I can see deals getting done, above and below board. No shortage of demand - I actually have a harder time thinking up things that Rumple would want in return than what people may want from Rumple. His medical abilities alone (complete heals for all but the most serious ailments, re-attach limbs like he did for Whale, conduct non-surgical complete heart transplants in 30 secs with a 100% success rate, and ‘rewind’ people back to youth) is going to make him richer that Bill Gates, Warren Buffet and the world association of plastics surgeons combined.

 

PS. He is also immortal. Does this mean immune to bullets, definitely. Can he create a magi- dome Cora style for anti-air, he’s more powerful than her so that’s a yes. Can he take a nuke? Uhmm, maybe not, but if the US/UK or some other is thinking a strike (don’t forget he absorbed the seers power so has early warning), he “purple-mist vaporates” to China and provides services there. Anyone going to nuke China? No. Rumple lives!

 

True. Science may follow the rules, but Magic can bend them as needed.  So if you're going to pit Magic against Science, put your money on Magic.  Always. 

[LizaD]

 

I actually have a harder time thinking up things that Rumple would want in return than what people may want from Rumple.

Well since this is Once, he would probably want Angelina Jolie's dress that would be able to take you across all realms. You just know the land of no magic will be brimming over with magical objects.

 

I wished they would de-magic Rump. He was way more interesting when he had to use his brain to work people over. But I guess that would ask for too much creativity from these writers. Magic-less Mr. Gold getting one over everybody in S1 was way more interesting than anything he's done since, which is just brute force. Even in the fairybacks, he used manipulation rather than magic directly. He should be the poor man's Littlefinger from Game of Thrones. I say poor man's because while Robert is the slightly better actor, the writing over there is about a million times better.

[Camera One]

I was watching the "Cruella de Vil" song, and she says that furs and fur coats are her "only true loves".  We'll see about that, LOL.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Camera One

[Geeni]

 

True. Science may follow the rules, but Magic can bend them as needed.  So if you're going to pit Magic against Science, put your money on Magic.  Always.

 

Oh god, let's hope we don't get a "Man of Science, Man of Magic" theme ala Lost now, with Rumple and someone else.

Edited February 2, 2015 by Geeni

[Serena]

I was watching the "Cruella de Vil" song, and she says that furs and fur coats are her "only true loves".  We'll see about that, LOL.

I just know 5-year-old Snow White dropped her apple juice on her favourite fur coat, thus ruining her true love for all eternity.

[Camera One]

I really don't like the actress they chose to play an "ancient" sea goddess.  She looks more like someone from Real Housewives of Atlanta.  There is no gravitas.  Tyra Banks would have been more believable.

 

So far Ursula has been kind of bland, both in her scenes and in her costume. She's probably the Queen I'm least excited about. I agree they should have chosen someone with a more unique look for the role.

 

I do like the actress, and she did a great job in "Alias".  However, I will have to agree she was the least memorable in "Heroes and Villains".  She also didn't have the air of an ancient sea goddess.  It didn't help that the story dictated she was an apprentice of Rumple even though she should have pre-dated him.  They didn't really give her a personality... Cruella was basically telling her what to do with her tentacles.  The whole Aquarium scene fell flat.  Again, Rumple was dictating what she was doing.  

 

I'll still give her a chance though since if the writing is up to it, the actress will be.  Casting someone older and making her NOT Rumple's apprentice would have been better, but that ship has already sailed.  I still find it annoying that they made Maleficent Rumple's apprentice too.  Give me a break.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Camera One

[kpw801]

Wouldn't it be nice if they threw in a romantic triangle involving Rumple, Belle and maybe Cruella.

Edited February 15, 2015 by kpw801

[myril]

Wouldn't it be nice if they threw in a romantic triangle involving Rumple, Belle and maybe Cruella.

Like Cruella charming Belle and Rumple getting sidelined?

[Souris]

I'm still wishing for a Cruella-Ursula romance.