The Villains of Once Upon a Time

[stealinghome]

Regina, Rumple, Zelena and Peter Pan are not villains.  There are only five villains on this show, and their acronym is BELSS.

Hee. They can also spell "BLESS." Take that as you will. ;)

[KingOfHearts]

I'm holding my ground on Evil Blue. She's so freaking shady. Without her, there'd be no dark curse. I believe she has manipulated everything from day one. If they never do that, I am writing a fanfic!

[KAOS Agent]

I just love that Keegan Connor Tracy calls the Blue Fairy by the name Shady when she's referencing her character. It's obviously tongue in cheek, but she knows almost everyone in the fandom thinks she's super sketchy. You just know that when the day comes these writers run out of sob stories for villains, the Blue Fairy will be revealed to be the biggest villain of all. Totally unremorseful and gleefully proclaiming her evil to all and sundry. 

Edited October 25, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[MadyGirl1987]

I loved the Hans scene too and I also like Hans. But that's cause he's allowed to remain, well douchebag Hans.

 

As for the moral ambiguity they pretty much have 2 strategies. For Rumple, I feel it's true blue moral ambiguity. He does bad things but he didn't start out that way and his evil deeds are for a pretty good purpose, reuniting with his kid. Even then no one besides dim bulb Belle is patting him on the back for it. Not even Neal, the only one who matters to him.

 

The other strategy which I find distasteful is to tear down the good guys and make them seem evil and victimized the other party and the "villain's" misdeeds are whitewashed and they pretend it never happened. Basically I don't believe Woegina discussion would ever fall under the topic of villainy because A&E clearly don't see her as a villain. She's the heroine of their piece. Their Twilight Bella if you will. And anything surrounding her also gets distorted, see Cora and Eva and Cora and Snow. I'm still mad about Cora by the way. They ruined a perfectly good villain.

 

But yes I agree with you, A&E love to pat themselves on the back for how creative and edgy and complicated their material and characters are. It's all hogwash. They tout complex and grey but that's not really true.

 

If this show really did moral ambiguity, it'd be a good show, not a shitty crack habit we can't break from.

They do like to make villains out of the heroes, don't they? 

[FurryFury]

They do like to make villains out of the heroes, don't they?

 

If only they did it well. I love a well-done Fallen Hero story. But the stuff like "Eva was mean to Cora" or "Emma ruined Regina's life" is laughable and impossible to take seriously.

[KingOfHearts]

If only they did it well. I love a well-done Fallen Hero story. But the stuff like "Eva was mean to Cora" or "Emma ruined Regina's life" is laughable and impossible to take seriously.

That's what I'd love to see on Once - a super good guy going dark. Not Hook, because that would be too obvious, but maybe Henry or Belle. Lost had a lot of characters switching sides constantly. I wish Once wasn't so clear cut about their "good guys" and "bad guys".

If they want to show heroes are no better than villains maybe they should be murdering people instead of Eva's "transgressions".

Edited October 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

That's what I'd love to see on Once - a super good guy going dark. Not Hook, because that would be too obvious, but maybe Henry or Belle.

 

Yes, that would be great. You're right about Hook turning bad because it wouldn't have the same impact. It would just be regression and proving that once a bad guy, always a gad guy. A good guy turning bad for good reasons would be the best.

 

They are a little ham-strung though because nobody wants their favourite Disney Princess to go bad (Snow White for part of an episode is acceptable because she was reformed by the end and it was pretty funny). I say they turn Robin bad since he's already kind of wrecked anyway. Regina can have an epic romance where she saves him from himself. Jared did a good job playing Pan, so him turning bad might work as well. Maybe it can magically age him to a 16 year old (and the actor can play catch up).

 

But whoever goes evil needs to go evil. None of this tripping or secret revealing nonsense. I choke on my drink when they try to make such minor things morally equivalent to slaughtering villages.

Edited October 26, 2014 by kili

[Camera One]

That's what I'd love to see on Once - a super good guy going dark. Not Hook, because that would be too obvious, but maybe Henry or Belle. Lost had a lot of characters switching sides constantly. I wish Once wasn't so clear cut about their "good guys" and "bad guys".

 

I would hate that.  It could only work if done well, and under believable circumstances, and I don't trust the writers to be able to do that.  Fairy tales are clear-cut about good guys and bad guys.  If anything, Once tries to blur the lines, in a contrived way.  Belle and Henry turning muahahaha evil?  No thanks.  I'm not interested in watching the show become even more cartoonish.  I find evil characters who murder for no reason to be hella annoying and hella unenjoyable to watch.  If I wanted to see/enjoy watching serial killers, I would tune into a cop show.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Once is a twist on fairy tales, though. Alliances wavered much more frequently in S1 and S2. If Once is just flat good guys vs bad guys, then its a cartoon, at least to me.

I agree they'll never turn a princess evil. It's a pipe dream to me. I'm still hoping with Henry. :)

Edited October 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I just don't think it's a good idea to fix one problem with another one.  Having a purely good character suddenly turn evil is just another form of a "surprise twist!" which have been done one thousand and one times on other shows.  "Alliances wavering" only works if the character motivations match up, and they deal with the consequences.  Character actions need to be consistent with the character's personality.  An example where they did a poor job in their attempt to be complex is Aurora not telling Snow about the truth regarding Zelena.  On paper, that's a shade of grey but since they never actually dealt or spent screentime on it, it was difficult to buy, a cheap twist, and superficial and shallow.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I don't want them to flip like a light switch. A slow descent would be the best approach. Their turning to darkness might explain their actions better. Belle's infatuation for Rumple's dark parts or Henry's trickery with Regina, for example. Organic isn't in the writers vocabulary, unfortunately.

Edited October 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I see what you mean, and I agree it *could* be done well.  Unfortunately, I guess I just don't have the trust in the writers to do that in an organic way.  Almost everything is a light switch on this show.  Like how Zelena became evil, for example.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

The other thing is, there's no way a good character going evil would stick. They'd have to go good again, and then we'd just have round #94367349654 of the heroes having to excuse/whitewash/forget/etc. all the villainous stuff the hero-turned-villain did when the h-t-v is inevitably redeemed and inexplicably, instantly forgiven. Which, just, no thanks.

[YaddaYadda]

I'd love to see someone like Belle (not because I like her, but because shoe in the other foot) get the Dark One powers and Rumple to have zero magic.  Let's see how he feels then.

 

They can also have someone bind Regina's powers, just because...

[Camera One]

In some ways, the biggest punishment for Rumple and Regina (ditto for Cora) would be to lose all their magic.  That's the source of their power over people, and the source of their over-confidence and feeling of invincibility, like they can do whatever to whoever, just because they want to.  

[Curio]

That's what I'd love to see on Once - a super good guy going dark.

 

I actually thought they were going there with Neal during Season 3. I mean, Neal was never a really a super good guy, but he definitely wasn't a villain. I wish they would have kept him alive and we could have seen his slow decent into darkness and becoming more like his father. They were already slowly setting it up by having him leave Emma in jail, not searching for her when he got the postcard, using a child as bait to get to Neverland, stupidly using the Dark One key to return Rumple back to life - even though he knew it was probably a bad idea, and by showing us his talk with Hook in the hospital ("How does it feel to be a good guy?" ... "How does it feel to be a villain?"). It would have been interesting to see him go darker for a bit, but alas, he is forever deemed a bonafide hero with a kid named after him.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Curio

[Jean]

They screwed up Neal from the beginning by making him that "guy who mows your yard." He could've been a Lex Luthor type heading up the anti-magic Home Office. Or if they wanted to keep him a "good guy" then make him be a cool do-gooder James Bond or something, not a bum.

Can Zelena be considered evil? We didn't even see her kill anyone. Neal died by his own stupidity. She rather turn people into monkeys than kill them.

[Camera One]

To me, that is still considered evil.  If someone led a drug addict to a stash of drugs laced with poison and they stood by and watched as the drug addict make the decision to take the drugs out of desperation, that person would still be deeply immoral.  They went out of their way to tempt someone to their death, using something they were desperate about (in Neal's case, it was desperation to get back to Henry and Emma).  However stupid his decision, Zelena was evil for setting up such a situation.

 

Aside from that though, Zelena didn't do anything else that was too horrific.  And apparently, using a baby for creating a going-back-in-time portal which breaks the law of magic doesn't hurt the baby at all.  She might as well have just asked to borrow Snow and Charming's baby for an afternoon.  Ditto for Regina's heart since it survived.  And it wasn't even Rumple's real brain.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Camera One

[FurryFury]

Yeah, Neal was a shmuck, and I'll never understand why they've written him this way. He could have ben a great character,he had everything for that. but the casting and writing just failed epically. I do think he could have that hero-turned-villain story, though (even if he was never a hero), mostly because the show didn't care enought about him to turn him back.

[Camera One]

All the Snow Queen really wants is...................... a family who loves her.  So she turns a mother who has just been reunited with her long-lost son into a popsicle? Boo hoo, cry me an ice bucket.  This better make sense when her backstory is revealed, or don't expect me to cry a tear for her.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure she's already made clear that family and friends that aren't special magical snowflakes (pun intended) are not worthy of her time because they all eventually turn on you. Because they fear her and can't understand her. I've never seen Frozen, but that seems to accurately describe what happened with Elsa and her parents. What does the Snow Queen care about magic-less Marian who would no doubt immediately try to kill her if she couldn't control her magic? Also, Marian was part of the group attacking Elsa's snowman (the one that was only frightened and only hit out when directly attacked), so she's already demonstrated a willingness to attack something she doesn't understand. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

Yeah, excuses, excuses, just like all the villains on this show before her.  Can't wait for the rest of the tale.  Deluded is fine, but I just can't stand when Adam and Eddy try to justify it all and make us try to feel sorry for them.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

I'm not so sure we're supposed to feel sorry for her. She's clearly nuts. I'm just super happy that she's had multiple run ins with our heroes and has not stood around explaining who she is, what her plan is or otherwise muhahahahaing and gloating all over the place. Sure, she explained her motivations to Elsa when she was planning to kill Hook, but she didn't tell Elsa all about the wonderful family she was going to form with her and Emma. She also didn't acknowledge knowing Emma at all. She denied it. This week she just took what she wanted and poofed away. She's the anti-Zelena and I Iove her for it. I'll take calm, understated evil over over the top, scenery chewing Zelena any day.

[Camera One]

I'm just going to wait until the end of this half-season to judge.  I agree she's better than Zelena thus far, though a whole combination of factors made her a dud for me, apart from the over the top scenery chewing.  She was way overexposed.  By the fifth episode of 3B, we had already seen *three* flashbacks involving Zelena, not to mention current-day plots for four of the five episodes.  They're doing the slow-burn route with the Snow Queen, even moreso than Peter Pan.  Which is good so far.

[Jean]

I do think they will give DQ the tragic story treatment but they can't tear down Anna/Elsa in the process, so there's that. Emma might have to play the heavy again, what else is new right? But if she has to play the heavy, at least DQ in 5 words and 2 scenes has shown her more affection than the other people Emma's had to play the heavy for. There's also Disney keeping an eye on Frozen and Elsa/Anna's new aunt included? Right? Hopefully.

I don't know I just love her. Her very real but effed up affection for Elsa and Emma tickles me. I thought it was an awesome scene when she was so proud of Elsa for essentially beating her. I also loved that she let Sidney go. She doesn't go for pointless villainy or derive pointless satisfaction from hurting someone just because she can, unlike the others. When she froze Hans? No smirking, no smugness just zero emotion because they don't touch her in any way. That might actually be scarier than the other moustache twirling scene chewing villians.

And yes this show is so messed up that some villain being proud and loving Elsa and Emma in a creepy way warms the cockles of my heart. Because it feels like sunshine and roses compared to the other crap we're treated to. Man this show is so depressing.

[tennisgurl]

As of now, I am actually still interested in how the Snow Queens backstory is going to go. Somehow, when she said she "wants a family that loves her", it didn't really seem sad, it sounded kind of creepy. Like, she just wanted a family in the way a kid wants action figures. They`re going to love her, and that's it. Not so much a family as possessions, to make Snow Queen feel better, without expecting to be loved in return. I hope they work the actual Snow Queen story into this, because I think it could make for a really interesting story about selfish love vs. true love!

 

Of course, then the show would awkwardly have to show how dang selfish Regina's love is (She loves Henry because she wants a child that's hers, on her terms, she loved Robin, because she wants a man to love her, again on her terms, and the family that comes with him, to emphasis how wonderful and loving she is) and we cant have that!

[FurryFury]

I'm really not loving this "wanting a family" motivation. Seriously, show, stop beating us over the head that family is your main theme, we get it already. Some less-egocentrical motivation would be nice to see once in a while, but Rumple wanted his son back (and now wants to get free from the dagger), Regina wanted revenge, Peter Pan wanted to live forever and Zelena was jealous of Regina. It's high time for something more global and fresh. I was actually quietly hoping that the speculation was correct and DQ really is Once's take on Magneto. Of course, it may still turn out to be true, and the "family" she was talking about meant just taking people with inborn magical powers, like herself, Emma and Elsa, and taking on those who hate magic, but knowing the show, she just has abandonment issues, yadda yadda. Give me a break.

 

I still enjoy the hell out of Elizabeth Mitchell's performance, she's a breath of fresh air - all villains except for Cora and Rumple are/were prone to hamming it up, while she's rather grounded and ambiguous. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by FurryFury

[KingOfHearts]

A lot of the villain motivations on this show are weak and very... A&E. Zelena's was laughable, Regina's is a head scratcher to put it lightly, and Pan's was vague at times. I wish they hadn't given away DQ's or Zelena's plans so early, simply because it removes a large portion of the mystery.

The show runners in general haven't paced their twists and reveals very well. They don't hold much weight.

[YaddaYadda]

I wish they hadn't given away DQ's or Zelena's plans so early, simply because it removes a large portion of the mystery.

 

I sort of agree and disagree at the same time.  Zelena was cackling that she wanted revenge on her sister which I still don't understand why to be perfectly honest.  DQ seems to be far more complex even the whole reason about a family that loves her, while seemingly ridiculous, there's still a lot of mystery that surrounds her.  It doesn't seem to be so cut and dry.

[Jean]

Everybody's motivations on this show are weak, not just the villains. The problem is when they give these people all this super comic-book level fantastical powers and then wittle their problems and motivations to petty soap opera drama, there's a huge dissonance. You could time travel but all you want to do is kill a woman so you could have a mommy and daddy that lives in a castle? I'm not saying remove all personal drama either, just that it should be the background, not the goal.

Cora was a perfect example. Her goal, up until the craptastic Bleeding Through, was to get power. Her personal drama was the reason why she wanted to get power. Bleeding Through retconned all of that and power was just a means to bitch slap Eva over a man. They even threw in a who's the daddy drama for good measure, in case we thought we were watching anything else but a soap. Holy cow, that was the ultimate exercise in triteness.

I too hope DQ is closer to Magneto than some soap opera villain who wants to use her powers to switch sperm samples or change paternity tests. It's still the same sucky writers but since the soul sucker is minimally involved, DQ has a chance to be a real character and not just a prop. The relationship between DQ and Elsa/Emma is already a thousand times more developed than Zelena's and they've only shared 2 scenes. Since no one is the Mary Sue, a two way relationship can be developed and shared equally, in a way they can't do for their pet.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Cora was a perfect example. Her goal, up until the craptastic Bleeding Through, was to get power.

ITA.

 

Pan's motivation was similar. He wanted immortality and the power Henry's heart gave him. Rumple's daddy issues was a sideshow. Pan didn't give a crap about Rumple, except that he wanted him as far away from him as possible. Pan himself though didn't get much development or very many character moments. He was always either in the background or taunting a Nevenger. 

 

As far as Zelena goes, her jealousy plot should have worked way better than it did. They made her so personal and petty that she became laughable. If she terrorized Oz or the Enchanted Forest, or actually killed someone, or cast the Dark Curse, then she'd be a formidable opponent. Flying monkeys and a failed time travel spell just don't cut the mustard.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Killing Nealfire (a storytelling choice that Carlyle was said to be very unhappy with) cut the emotional core out of Gold's character.

I agree. Killing Bae wasn't a very good choice. It was an obvious one because the writers didn't know what to do with him, but I feel his death was just part of the issue. They messed up his character entirely, imo. They should have focused on his relationship with Rumple, but they kept them apart most of his time on the show. I won't go into his issues with Emma, since that's a whole other matter to be discussed in another thread.

 

I feel Rumple as a character doesn't have the proper goal to keep him scheming any more. Power could be logical, but it doesn't give him the depth of heart needed to sustain him as a main cast member. Sorry Rumpbelle fans, but I don't feel Belle has nearly as special of a place in him as Bae did. The man lacks a drive, and if he's going to use the hat to get enough power to lose the dagger, it's pretty redundant. I'm honestly surprised he didn't try to use a time travel spell to go save his son from dying, or tried to find some way to resurrect the dead.

 

Right now going sparkly imp would be what I'd want for Rumple. With Belle in the picture though, we're painfully limited.

Edited November 8, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Amerilla]

Right now going sparkly imp would be what I'd want for Rumple. With Belle in the picture though, we're painfully limited.

It may be a ymmv thing, but I find a tiny bit of Sparkly Imp goes a looooong way.

I don't think the writers care enough about Belle to have her presence limit what he does - and even if they did care, they could do it in any number of ways, including turning Belle dark as well.

I think the bigger problem would be having him Imp in Storybrooke. Would he just go around menacing people for manic giggles? Would modern-living Storybrookians go to him as an enforcer for hire? (Although given the general haphazardness of Sheriff Swan and Deputy Dad's approach to law enforcement, at least he'd provide protection at a price.)

[Rumsy4]

I'm honestly surprised he didn't try to use a time travel spell to go save his son from dying, or tried to find some way to resurrect the dead.

 

It sort of makes sense if his end goal was always reconciliation with his son. If he tried time travel, there was a chance he might mess things up, and never be able to find his son in the altered timeline. That's probably why he let Emma go when she told him about Neal's death in the Dark Vault. And Rumple is too knowledgeable about the Price of Magic to try and resurrect Nealfire from death. He wouldn't want to end up with Zombie Neal. Even his own resurrection was only possible because he was a magic being, I think. 

Edited November 9, 2014 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

I don't think the writers care enough about Belle to have her presence limit what he does - and even if they did care, they could do it in any number of ways, including turning Belle dark as well.

 

Unfortunately, I don't believe they can because of two reasons. One, Belle is a Disney princess. She can't be killed off, and she can't go dark. Two, there are so many Rumpbelle fans that have become invested that they would get an uproar if that couple were to go poof. Since Rumple is basically the Beast, the showrunners can only taint the Beauty and the Beast image so much before someone holds a stop sign in their hand. It's just a touchy area. If it were me, I'd either kill Belle off and make Rumple go totally insane, or make her go dark.

 

 

I think the bigger problem would be having him Imp in Storybrooke. Would he just go around menacing people for manic giggles? Would modern-living Storybrookians go to him as an enforcer for hire? (Although given the general haphazardness of Sheriff Swan and Deputy Dad's approach to law enforcement, at least he'd provide protection at a price.)

 

I can always wish he'll go sparkly imp, but at least they could make him Evil Mr. Gold, like a hybrid of sorts. What they're doing now with the hat is fine, but I know Robert's acting ability could do so much more.

[Camera One]

Since Rumple's goal for so long was to find Bae, a logical goal for him now is a long con to get Bae/Neal back.  However, from a realistic/real life perspective, that's not going to happen since Adam and Eddy have made it clear Neal is dead for good and since they never actually had an interest in writing for him, that dashes that possibility unless Bae/Neal isn't resurrected until the series finale.  Naming the baby Neal was not really a homage to the character, but more like the final nail on his coffin.

 

That leaves Belle as the remaining motivation.  But the writers have not shown Rumple being at all conflicted over what he's doing to Belle.  They have written him playing more games than ever this season and stringing Belle along, while they have written Belle declaring she's not good enough for him (oops, I forgot... choosing a rock over Anna practically makes you Darth Vader).

 

Which leaves the only motivation that Rumple might have is to gain more and more magical powers and become the most powerful wizard in existence.  And since he doesn't seem to want powers as a way to rule others, but more to benefit himself, that could allow him to be a villain but generally not a threat to the main characters.  

 

I just hate how the more powerful Rumple (and Regina) becomes, they are always the go-to sages to answer magical queries from Emma and the "good guys".  In so many fantasy shows, the protagonists also consult the wise sages but that rarely happens on this show (since they make the wise sages like Blue, Glinda or the Rock Trolls either idiotic or very selectively helpful which makes them seem shady even though they're not).  I mean, what's "Lord of the Rings" without Gandalf?  Those types of sages can be such awesome characters.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Camera One

[Jean]

They could've save themselves some trouble if they had waited to bring Bae on board. It's really not a 2nd season type of story, at least not the one I was picturing coming out of the first season. But then again they've destroyed every story from S1 anyway.

 

Then they wouldn't have all this trouble with Rumple's character and maybe they would've used that time to think long and hard about how adult Bae should end up. Cause the hobo we got was a total failure. Even Will would've been a better choice. He too is a thief and he feels like the type of character you'd get if you were a fairytale character but spent 20 years in the real world.

 

The fact is the writers weren't able to reconcile having Bae in the picture and keeping Rumple evil, the way Robert obviously wants to keep his character. I wonder how Robert thinks that story should've gone, having Bae around but him still sneaking off being evil? Maybe kid Bae could've lost some of that goody 2 shoes Charming like honor? Or adult Bae was evil? The only way A&E could keep him evil was to act like Neal wasn't in the picture and separate them so they could do that Henry undoing and Lacey crap. As soon as he got his son back who forgave him that was the end of the journey. To prolong the story, either the son or Rumple had to go.

 

Oh and the fact that the Bae/Rumple reunion was completely overshadowed by Rumple/Cora and Rumbelle/Lacey speaks volumes. As soon as Manhattan was over, Neal became an afterthought.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Jean

[Camera One]

It's the trouble they have with Regina too.  They want their cake and eat it too since they want to have Regina and Rumple be their "delicious" evil selves and yet be complex characters like you and me with feelings and capable of "love".

 

I agree that Bae was not necessary in Season 2.  But they were clearly so impatient... I mean, they were ready to give up the payoff of ending the Curse, reuniting Rumple and Belle, bringing Magic back, and having Emma believe all at one go in a single episode.  Technically, they could also have waited to bring back Belle for later in the series when Rumple was ready for redemption.  In Season 2, they could have had Rumple needing something from Cora in order to find Bae and that would have allowed him to work together with the protagonists against Cora.  Rumple could have gone to Neverland in Season 3 to get info from Peter Pan or to search for clues about where his son was.  And then Season 4 could have had Rumple finally finding Neal and the next season could be working through their issues.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I think the original plan for the show stretched to S2, and finding Bae concluded it. After Neal's reveal, it's obvious in 2B they had absolutely no concrete plan going. They didn't count on how that would affect Rumple, though. I don't know why they separated them in 2B.

 

 

I mean, what's "Lord of the Rings" without Gandalf?  Those types of sages can be such awesome characters.

We can always hope for the Sorcerer, hehe. (Unless he turns out to be someone we know already... like Blue! Muahahaha)

Edited November 9, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kitticup]

It's the trouble they have with Regina too.  They want their cake and eat it too since they want to have Regina and Rumple be their "delicious" evil selves and yet be complex characters like you and me with feelings and capable of "love".

 

I agree that Bae was not necessary in Season 2.  But they were clearly so impatient... I mean, they were ready to give up the payoff of ending the Curse, reuniting Rumple and Belle, bringing Magic back, and having Emma believe all at one go in a single episode.  Technically, they could also have waited to bring back Belle for later in the series when Rumple was ready for redemption.  In Season 2, they could have had Rumple needing something from Cora in order to find Bae and that would have allowed him to work together with the protagonists against Cora.  Rumple could have gone to Neverland in Season 3 to get info from Peter Pan or to search for clues about where his son was.  And then Season 4 could have had Rumple finally finding Neal and the next season could be working through their issues.

I agree that they were very impatient. They really should have had a really strong plan for what happened when the curse broke. There was almost no payoff. I would have held off bringing magic and going to enchanted first and instead focused on the fallout in StoryBrooke, but that would mean both Regina and Rumple would be at the mercy of everyone else.

As for Bae, I would have made him part of the anti-magic group, because of his experience with His father and grandfather. When Emma finds him and he learns that he is the savior he could be super conflicted. I think this would have set up a good tension in his relationship with rumple and Emma. I would have not done any Bae-hook-Emma triangle but a hook-rumple-Bae would be more interesting. Would hook and Neal be in Kahoots to stop magic - that could be interesting.

[Serena]

I remember hearing that in their plans, originally Nealfire was supposed to appear later. I wonder what changed their minds. The love triangle? They had Hook there, and you couldn't do a love triangle without the third part. But considering they barely tried with it (honestly, before S2 started I kind of believed there was a 50/50 chance about how it would go. But as soon as 305 and 306 aired, I felt the writing was very, very biased toward CS already. I've seen love triangles where the writers tried to play both sides, and this was not one of them), they shouldn't have bothered. If you remove Neal, the CS storyline barely changes.

[Camera One]

I'm kinda glad they gave the Snow Queen a different motivation for her villainry... It's distrust, versus revenge (Regina, Hook), power (Rumple), status (Cora), selfishness (Peter Pan) or jealousy (Zelena).  

Edited November 10, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I can always wish he'll go sparkly imp, but at least they could make him Evil Mr. Gold, like a hybrid of sorts.

I think Evil Mr. Gold is far more menacing than sparkly imp. There's something rather ridiculous about the sparkly imp, but the soft-spoken man in the business suit who has all the power of the sparkly imp while pretending (at least to his wife) to be totally reformed even as he's scheming for even more power is truly scary and seems like an actual threat.

 

As for Bae, I would have made him part of the anti-magic group, because of his experience with His father and grandfather. When Emma finds him and he learns that he is the savior he could be super conflicted. I think this would have set up a good tension in his relationship with rumple and Emma. I would have not done any Bae-hook-Emma triangle but a hook-rumple-Bae would be more interesting.

They really dropped the ball there. Bae's experience with his father and choosing to go to a world without magic could have meant that he consciously got together with Tamara because of the anti-magic thing rather than just being a duped sap. And there was a lot of dramatic potential in the Bae-Hook-Rumple trio. When you think about it, Hook was playing "father" to Bae for longer than Rumple did. If those two had demonstrated that kind of closeness in front of Rumple, what would it have done to him? It would be the second person Rumple lost to Hook. Everyone Rumple loved escaped from him and ended up with Hook. Or there could have been a tug-of-war over Bae, since keeping Bae on Team Hook against his father would be the ultimate revenge for Hook. As it is, we don't even know if Rumple knows that Hook cared for Bae. That should make their enmity even more complex, since they did both love Bae and have that much in common, and that could make Rumple simultaneously grateful that Hook did look after Bae and keep him from being so lost and alone in Neverland and yet also jealous because his greatest enemy had that kind of relationship with his son that he missed out on.

 

These writers are brilliant at setting up possibilities, but then they miss them entirely and squander them while chasing after other, less interesting things.

[Rumsy4]

I was somewhat flummoxed at the thought of Rumple having World Domination on his agenda, but I think it might make sense. While, as stealinghome said, Rumple's always been a homebody, he's also always craved lots of power and control. It is quite possible that he contented himself to being the mysterious dealer of magic because he wanted to find his son and reconcile with him. He would know that Baelfire would never forgive him if he had used his powers to become Supreme Ruler of the Enchanted Forest. Besides, we don't know what he would have done if he had been able to activate the Fantasia Hat back then. With Baelfire gone, and the Hat in his hands, he can now let loose. I don't think he has his eyes on the Land Without Magic per se. He might well have fantasized about being the most powerful and most sought out Being in all the Realms, and with the unlimited powers the Hat can bestow, he can travel anywhere at the blink of an eye, and yet have one base of operations (as he always does). 

Edited November 12, 2014 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

I don't think he has his eyes on the Land Without Magic per se.

 

Probably not, but between the quip about the portal to Asgard and Thor's hammer in the background during the last show, I really hope that's not where we're headed next.  I know that Marvel, Disney, ABC are one big family, but I sincerely hope that's not the case.  Once meets Marvel...I'd love to see Morgana/Morgause unleashed from the hat and casually biding their time.

[Shanna Marie]

While Rumple has tended to be a homebody, he did sit in his castle and let the various world leaders call upon him for help, and he traded in enough favors among them that when he did want something, he could pull a king or queen's strings to make it happen. Some of that was part of his Bae plan, but not all. He seems to have owned George because of providing sons for him. We now know he had some ties to Arendelle and had potential blackmail material there, as he may have been the only one who remembered all three sisters and had a good idea what happened to two of them, since the urn came from him. Those can't have been the only rulers he manipulated over the centuries.

 

So he may be looking for that kind of influence in our world -- which may or may not go as planned. Help out a few people to get his reputation out there, which leaves him with some presidents and prime ministers in his pocket. Or maybe limit himself to business leaders, where he could start semi-locally and spread from there. He'd have to poof around a few times before the reputation spreads, and then he could sit back and let them come to him.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I was somewhat flummoxed at the thought of Rumple having World Domination on his agenda, but I think it might make sense.

Yeah, I don't exactly buy the world domination or him just trying to become a big man in the Land Without Magic. I'd say Rumple is person who hates limits. He has always hated the fact he couldn't cross the town line without magic, and he can't stand being on a leash with the dagger. So, if he has the hat, Belle can TLK him, think he's "cured", and they can go run off to a new place without him losing his precious power. All that said however, I believe there is a more specific agenda going on, because Rumple is anything but vague when it comes to his plans. It's all a catalyst for 4B, if you ask me. Something says the hat has a big twist to it. All magic has a price, dearie!

Edited November 12, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[FurryFury]

Probably not, but between the quip about the portal to Asgard and Thor's hammer in the background during the last show, I really hope that's not where we're headed next.

 

IIRC, Mjolnir has been already shown in Gold's shop somewhere during season 1. So it's just continuity.

[Shanna Marie]

I've been thinking about what it is that Rumple wants, and I'm not sure that it's truly about power, but rather about control. He wants to have control over himself -- to have no restrictions or limitations and not answer to anyone. It's pretty normal to want self-determination, but most of us realize that even if we live in a "free" country, there's no such thing as absolute self-determination. There are laws, bosses, landlords, and forces of nature. Other people's rights might bump up against our ability to do what we want. Rumple takes it to an extreme. He doesn't want any restrictions at all, nothing tying him down or limiting what he can do, no one telling him what he can or can't do, should or shouldn't do. That's how Hook recognized that Belle couldn't possibly have the real dagger -- it goes against everything Rumple is to willingly give anyone that much control over him. It's also probably the reason he killed Milah and hates Hook so much. It wasn't that his wife left him for another man, it's that she refused to abide by his control, and both of them refused to fear him. They stood up to him and challenged him, and he doesn't like being challenged because there's a chance that the challenger might get the upper hand. (And this is why it was so stupid for Hook to try to blackmail him. He should know better because he recognizes that what Rumple really wants is absolute control, so it's poking the bear to try to take away that control. On the other hand, I could see why doing it would be tempting.)

 

The only way to ensure that no one can have any say whatsoever in what he does is to maintain control, leverage, or the upper hand against everyone else. It wasn't so much that he wanted to control the rulers of his home world, but rulers by definition rule, and the way to avoid being ruled by them was to have leverage against them -- ah, not so fast making me abide by that edict. Remember who got you your son? It wouldn't do if your kingdom learned he isn't actually your son and heir. He doesn't really want to rule the world himself, and for the most part he doesn't care what other people do. He just doesn't want to be restricted in any way, so he makes sure he keeps people in a position where they can't protest anything he does. It's interesting that in the cursed world, he's not the mayor, judge, or anyone else with civic power. Instead, he's the landlord, the one who controls a key aspect of people's day-to-day lives (and you know he didn't give Regina any control over his fate under the curse).

 

So it may not be so much that he wants to rule the world outside Storybrooke. It's that he can't deal with the limitations currently placed on him. He may not want to leave, but it eats at him that he can't leave without possibly losing his memories and without losing his magic. He got along fine for centuries in possession of his own dagger, but now he's acutely aware that it's a weakness that might allow someone else to control him.

[Jean]

I don't think the writers care much about Rumple's psyche. I have a feeling he wants something specific that's out in the real world and wants to go retrieve it but he's not doing it without his powers. That's the reason why he wants powers in the real world.