A Million Different Characters: Motivations, Meanings, And Mistakes Discussion

[formerlyfreedom]

A place to talk more about the individual characters of A Million Little Things

[Natalie25]

I hope this is the right place for this, I wasn't sure where else it would fit. This thought just popped into my head regarding Rome, so apologies if it's already been covered as I'm not fully caught up. When Rome sees his new therapist, he's surprised that he needs antidepressants. It gave me the impression that he's never been diagnosed as depressed or been treated for it. Regina was shocked when she found the suicide note, so she's also not aware of him having depression. So what pills was he planning on swallowing in the pilot? They definitely looked like prescription pills. Obviously a bottleful of any medication can kill you, but I thought ODs were generally related to mental health type medications. I could be wrong on that, but I'd love some insight because this keeps nagging at me!

[HazelEyes4325]

My guess is that they were painkillers.  Many people tend to have prescription painkillers around their houses, left over from miscellaneous medical/dental procedures (I've gotten them following childbirth, outpatient surgery, dental work, and LASIK).*  However, the fact that he seemed to have full bottles of them is baffling as the heavy duty meds seem to be prescribed in 1-2 doses, instead of 30-90 doses like many other medications.

* Just a PSA: If you have leftover medicines around, you can contact your local police department to get rid of them.  Many departments will even have drug drop-off days where you can just drive by and hand over leftover meds without even having to get out of your car.

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Natalie25 said:

I hope this is the right place for this, I wasn't sure where else it would fit. This thought just popped into my head regarding Rome, so apologies if it's already been covered as I'm not fully caught up. When Rome sees his new therapist, he's surprised that he needs antidepressants. It gave me the impression that he's never been diagnosed as depressed or been treated for it. Regina was shocked when she found the suicide note, so she's also not aware of him having depression. So what pills was he planning on swallowing in the pilot? They definitely looked like prescription pills. Obviously a bottleful of any medication can kill you, but I thought ODs were generally related to mental health type medications. I could be wrong on that, but I'd love some insight because this keeps nagging at me!

The most commonly prescribed anti-depressants, the SSRI's, which includes Prozac and the like, are actually kind of hard to OD on, so they wouldn't be the first thing most people would consider using.  There is an older kind of antidepressant, tricyclics like amytryptiline, which are very toxic to the heart and can easily kill someone; but that's part of why they've gone out of favor and most docs don't prescribe them for depression.

Like the poster above, I suspect Rome either had some opioid pain killers or sleeping pills.  Maybe both.  It could be that he collected them from several sources and put them all in the same bottle.  Most prescribers would not give more than a week's worth of opiates to any patient due to the risk of addiction, but, if he'd gotten some for dental work and then his wife had some from when she'd had  surgery or something, he could end up with quite a lot of medication.  You'd be amazed how many people go to the doctor and report they've got insomnia and are given a month's worth of sleeping pills.  Not by me, but lots of docs hand them out fairly freely.

It's also possible to kill yourself using over the counter medications.  Tylenol is very toxic.  Unfortunately, it destroys the liver and that doesn't happen too quickly, so it's not a great option.

Edited December 10, 2018 by doodlebug

[HazelEyes4325]

9 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

The most commonly prescribed anti-depressants, the SSRI's, which includes Prozac and the like, are actually kind of hard to OD on, so they wouldn't be the first thing most people would consider using.  There is an older kind of antidepressant, tricyclics like amytryptiline, which are very toxic to the heart and can easily kill someone; but that's part of why they've gone out of favor and most docs don't prescribe them for depression.

Like the poster above, I suspect Rome either had some opioid pain killers or sleeping pills.  Maybe both.  It could be that he collected them from several sources and put them all in the same bottle.  Most prescribers would not give more than a week's worth of opiates to any patient due to the risk of addiction, but, if he'd gotten some for dental work and then his wife had some from when she'd had  surgery or something, he could end up with quite a lot of medication.  You'd be amazed how many people go to the doctor and report they've got insomnia and are given a month's worth of sleeping pills.  Not by me, but lots of docs hand them out fairly freely.

It's also possible to kill yourself using over the counter medications.  Tylenol is very toxic.  Unfortunately, it destroys the liver and that doesn't happen too quickly, so it's not a great option.

3

Interesting that SSRI's are hard to OD on, I didn't know that.  I do think, though, that Rome did a sweep of the medicine cabinet and took whatever was there.  Hell, he could have been trying to OD on stool softeners.  When you are that desperate, you usually don't stop and think about the finer details.  And I do think that Rome was desperate, unlike Jon (perhaps Jon was desperate but in a different way).  Rome just wanted the pain to stop by whatever means necessary, which I think is also why the little things--the TV bit about water--caused him to pause.  I know I'm not going to phrase this well, so please bear with me here.  I think Rome was more desperate than "serious."  I think that if he had truly resolved to commit suicide, he still would have done so after getting off the call with Gary and, if anything, hearing that Jon had killed himself would have made him more resolved to do so himself.

I really think the show is missing the mark by putting Rome's story on the backburner.  This is really compelling stuff and something that so many people (myself included) deal with.  Frankly, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to relate to male breast cancer (which I think is a serious topic, don't get me wrong) or the Eddie and Delilah mess (ugh!), but this story, which is so pervasive in our society, is sort of brushed aside.

I was also glad to see Rome address it with his father in 01.09 because, before that, it seemed like Rome had started taking Celexa and all was good and that is not at all realistic.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Interesting that SSRI's are hard to OD on, I didn't know that.  I do think, though, that Rome did a sweep of the medicine cabinet and took whatever was there.  Hell, he could have been trying to OD on stool softeners.  When you are that desperate, you usually don't stop and think about the finer details.  And I do think that Rome was desperate, unlike Jon (perhaps Jon was desperate but in a different way).  Rome just wanted the pain to stop by whatever means necessary, which I think is also why the little things--the TV bit about water--caused him to pause.  I know I'm not going to phrase this well, so please bear with me here.  I think Rome was more desperate than "serious."  I think that if he had truly resolved to commit suicide, he still would have done so after getting off the call with Gary and, if anything, hearing that Jon had killed himself would have made him more resolved to do so himself.

I really think the show is missing the mark by putting Rome's story on the backburner.  This is really compelling stuff and something that so many people (myself included) deal with.

I see it the same way. Rome is the guy who regrets the decision to jump immediately after the leap like Maggie described in an earlier episode. He didn’t really want to die he just couldn’t keep living the way that he was. Jon seemed to be more resolved in his decision. He may have been desperate but it wasn’t a act of desperation. 

[snarkylady]

7 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

 Hell, he could have been trying to OD on stool softeners.

 

I love this!  Trying to figure how I can work it into casual conversation. 

[GordonGartrelle]

None of these people really have anything interesting going on.  

It's not horrible, but if it didn't get a second season, i really wouldn't miss it.

[crgirl412]

Gary is the friend who you're never sure who you are going to get.  Funny, sarcastic Gary or "deep," melancholic Gary.  He could ruin a fun night in 10 seconds flat.  

[HazelEyes4325]

Someone once asked me--it might have been somewhere in this forum, but I can't remember--what it would take for me to like Delilah.  Honestly, I think that ship is sailed.  However, I have realized what would make me move Delilah from the "manipulative narcissist" column to the "woman who made some bad decisions" column.  

I would need to see Delilah go to Eddie, tell him that she loves him as a friend, but really nothing more than that, that their "relationship" was not "love", but rather two unhappy people who made a bad decision and hurt others in doing so.  The child she's carrying might be his (again, not convinced of that), but that does not mean that any romantic relationship will ever happen between them again.

Honestly, I actually think this is the case for Delilah.  Her actions indicate that it is, but she has chosen to not be honest with Eddie.  Or anyone for that matter.  Her inability to serve anyone but herself, and damn what other people have to suffer, is what clues me in that she's a manipulative narcissist.  For her to do something that actually benefits someone else would be a very welcome change.

Of course, if this were to happen, it would mean a downward spiral for Eddie.  I think that is probably a foregone conclusion at this point, so let's get on with it so we can move on with the story.  I'm not looking forward to seeing it (okay, maybe I would get a little schadenfreude out of it...), but I think it is something that has to happen if his character is ever to develop.

Now, on the other hand, Delilah might actually be a manipulative narcissist--as in that was always Nash's intention.  I doubt it, but it would actually be a good twist and at least it would give the audience the opportunity to love to hate Delilah instead of just hating her.

[pinkglove]

On 22.01.2019 at 6:52 PM, crgirl412 said:

Gary is the friend who you're never sure who you are going to get.  Funny, sarcastic Gary or "deep," melancholic Gary.  He could ruin a fun night in 10 seconds flat.  

That wouldn't bother me so much, if he was my friend. I don't mind people going through something and ruining a fun night. Sure, some people are always going through something and it can be a bit hard on their loved ones on a daily basis... but I guess at some point, you either get used to it or walk away, with the second option being less likely (unless they keep lashing out at you). Also, so far Gary had pretty good reasons.

What would bother me is that while he seems like a friend who will always show up for you, he's horridly pushy. So, if he was my friend, we'd probably reach the point where I'd stop telling him about things, knowing that he'd force his solutions on me. 

[HazelEyes4325]

I wrote this in the 1.12 thread, thought about it a bit more, and decided to move it over here as it doesn't have to do specifically with that episode.

Quote

 

I think there are two differences though: 

1- I think Eddie is meant to be unlikable, yet Nash thinks we should be sympathetic towards poor, poor Delilah (blech!)

2 - While both are unlikable, I actually still think that Eddie is redeemable.  I mean, he has to hit rock bottom and hit it hard, but I can see a path for his character where he could grow in a positive way.  Delilah is just toxic and there is nothing you can do with that.

 

There was a lot of talk at the beginning of the season about how the characters sort of let Delilah off the hook for the affair while blaming Eddie.  I think that is a valid argument, but I've also noticed sort of the opposite has happened in discussion here and on social media--that we get yeah, Eddie is despicable but I HATE DELILAH discussion and, yeah, I'll admit I'm very guilty of this.

But I think what I wrote above is why.  I actually don't have a problem with unlikable characters--as long as they are meant to be.  I do believe that Eddie is supposed to be unlikable, that is how he is written and that is how he is performed (although I think Giuntoil adds far more nuance to the character than the writing provides.  However, he has been pretty clear that he thinks Eddie is a fuck up).  But then we have Delilah and this constant YOU MUST LOVE HER campaign from Nash is just too much.  If he would just let her be unlikable instead of trying to make us think she is the victim in all this and she deserves every drop of our sympathy I think the audience would be far more willing to just go and see where the storyline leads.  Instead, we (er, I) feel like I'm being forced into some narrative that just doesn't make any sense.

[Dusty]

14 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I wrote this in the 1.12 thread, thought about it a bit more, and decided to move it over here as it doesn't have to do specifically with that episode.

There was a lot of talk at the beginning of the season about how the characters sort of let Delilah off the hook for the affair while blaming Eddie.  I think that is a valid argument, but I've also noticed sort of the opposite has happened in discussion here and on social media--that we get yeah, Eddie is despicable but I HATE DELILAH discussion and, yeah, I'll admit I'm very guilty of this.

But I think what I wrote above is why.  I actually don't have a problem with unlikable characters--as long as they are meant to be.  I do believe that Eddie is supposed to be unlikable, that is how he is written and that is how he is performed (although I think Giuntoil adds far more nuance to the character than the writing provides.  However, he has been pretty clear that he thinks Eddie is a fuck up).  But then we have Delilah and this constant YOU MUST LOVE HER campaign from Nash is just too much.  If he would just let her be unlikable instead of trying to make us think she is the victim in all this and she deserves every drop of our sympathy I think the audience would be far more willing to just go and see where the storyline leads.  Instead, we (er, I) feel like I'm being forced into some narrative that just doesn't make any sense.

Yeah I think that's my biggest problem with Delilah and why I'm having a hard time having any sympathy for her. The affair is on both of them. I don't blame one more than the other for that. What bothers me about Delilah more than Eddie is since then all she's been doing is making excuses as to why the affair wasn't that bad. Whereas at least Eddie, while not at the most appropriate times, has acknowledged to Katherine that he wasn't a great husband either and not because of the affair. but that he wasn't there for Katherine as much as she wasn't there for him and that he didn't recognize the sacrifice she thought she had to make for their family. Like he said to Rome in the episode where they had the restaurant party, "You get what you deserve. And I deserve this." That to me is the biggest difference between them.

Basically Delilah seems like the type of person to do a false apology. Like the celebrities that say something offensive and make a public apology with "I'm sorry your feelings got hurt but..." That's not taking ownership of it. That's passing it off onto the person/people who got hurt. Eddie at least seems like he's taken some ownership of destroying his family. All Delilah does is go "Well Jon started it."

[HazelEyes4325]

11 hours ago, Dusty said:

Basically Delilah seems like the type of person to do a false apology. Like the celebrities that say something offensive and make a public apology with "I'm sorry your feelings got hurt but..." That's not taking ownership of it. That's passing it off onto the person/people who got hurt. Eddie at least seems like he's taken some ownership of destroying his family. All Delilah does is go "Well Jon started it."

1

This.  So much this.

I think Delilah went past the point of no return with me when she got mad at Regina when Regina called her on her affair.  How many people did Delilah hurt with that affair?  Well, Jon killed himself and, at that point, Regina had no clue why he would have done that and the affair was the first possible explanation that came up.  Eddie's marriage was destroyed and Delilah was 50% responsible for that affair, and I guess Regina and Katherine were friends?  I mean, that was sort of retconned in, so there was that too.  Regina had every right to be upset with Delilah and Delilah's response was basically, "How dare you hold me responsible for this!"  Then, at the end *Regina apologized to Delilah* about it, which convinced me that:

1 - Delilah is a manipulative narcissist

2 - Nash really thinks we should feel sorry for Delilah.

Ugh.

[HazelEyes4325]

In the spoiler thread, @debraran wrote:

Quote

I see some fans, (maybe younger?) seem to like the clues, but I thought it was supposed to be a drama about suicide with some comedy for levity. I feel that more fans like Jon than don't and Nash is trying like with Jack on TIU, to generate interest. He must see the most don't like Eddie and Deliah and although I like Gary, his story is pending along with Rome's and

From what I've seen on social media, it seems that the audience is 50% in the "this is the most fascinating mystery ever!" camp and 50% are in the "get over it!" category.  I'm really perplexed by his characterization though.  I do think he's trying to emulate TIU in trying to humanize St. Jon.  I'll be honest, while the Eddie/Delilah shitshow in The Day Before was just nauseating, I actually really appreciated seeing more to Jon and I think it was smart of Nash to humanize Jon instead of trying to make him a saint or a devil.

But, everyone else--the guys really do have potential here and I do think that Nash would have a really strong show if he focused on their character development.  Will Gary get over his commitment issues?  Will Rome realize that depression is a disease that should be managed?  Will Eddie ever grow the fuck up?  These are things I want to know.  What turns me off is Nash's tendency to focus on the wrong thing.  If the inciting incident was Jon's suicide, why is so much time spent on a character who never even knew Jon?  Why is Delilah the center of anything? And, seriously, does Nash want us to like her or not because I'm getting some incredibly mixed messages on that front (not that it will change the fact that I despise her more than I've despised any character in quite some time).  Why is he spending his time on everything *except* the story of this show?

[debraran]

On 12/10/2018 at 12:57 PM, doodlebug said:

The most commonly prescribed anti-depressants, the SSRI's, which includes Prozac and the like, are actually kind of hard to OD on, so they wouldn't be the first thing most people would consider using.  There is an older kind of antidepressant, tricyclics like amytryptiline, which are very toxic to the heart and can easily kill someone; but that's part of why they've gone out of favor and most docs don't prescribe them for depression.

Like the poster above, I suspect Rome either had some opioid pain killers or sleeping pills.  Maybe both.  It could be that he collected them from several sources and put them all in the same bottle.  Most prescribers would not give more than a week's worth of opiates to any patient due to the risk of addiction, but, if he'd gotten some for dental work and then his wife had some from when she'd had  surgery or something, he could end up with quite a lot of medication.  You'd be amazed how many people go to the doctor and report they've got insomnia and are given a month's worth of sleeping pills.  Not by me, but lots of docs hand them out fairly freely.

It's also possible to kill yourself using over the counter medications.  Tylenol is very toxic.  Unfortunately, it destroys the liver and that doesn't happen too quickly, so it's not a great option.

I never got pain pills except for a root canal and never used them. My daughter got hydrocodone for a wisdom tooth extraction (never used) and another time for a pain that didn't warrant it. For some it wouldn't be hard to stock pile them.

[HazelEyes4325]

So, watching 1.13, I was thinking about Katherine and something came to mind about something my mother would say about a public couple (it isn't important who).  She said the woman in this couple fell into the ugly wife/handsome husband where the wife felt so lucky to have the husband, who she felt was too good for her, that she would put up with all sorts of crap from him.

I think this sort of describes Katherine.  Obviously, she's not ugly.  And, as handsome as David Giuntoli is, I don't think Eddie is quite the catch needed to make that metaphor work completely.  But there is still something there.  I think that Katherine is very confident in her professional abilities, but I also think that is the extent of her confidence.  I'm sure that having to be the Debi Downer to Eddie's party boy persona for 7 years and being reviled by his friends for it (which they've all seemingly forgot about...) has ground her down.  But, I am still wondering what attracted her to Eddie in the first place.  There is the obvious hotness, and Eddie did have the rock star thing going on.  But they don't seem to have anything in common, he clearly isn't an intellectual match for her, they don't seem to have any shared interests beyond Theo (which I get is a big thing, don't get me wrong), and she has had to shoulder all of the responsibilities of the family while he has "worked on his art."  

I honestly think that Katherine has always dealt with self-esteem and she is more fragile than her professional persona would lead one to believe.  I can't get past that one scene that was a flashback to her returning the scarf to Delilah and how she tries to advance towards her in friendship but Delilah literally holds up her hands to symbolically block her...and then Eddie shows up from inside the house.  I think the fact that Katherine was not part of the group was devastating to her and this bizarre thing of her helping Delilah (hopefully not pro bono because...puh-lease!) is more of Katherine trying to make human contact.   I think it is clear that the whole "Katherine is toxic" line started with Eddie and, in doing so, he isolated his wife and she is trying to break out of that.

I do hope that those who truly support her (which I think is just Carter) help her see that she is as valid a human as everyone else.  She is more deserving of good things than any other adult on this show (not including Carter).

[pinkglove]

On 1.02.2019 at 9:52 PM, HazelEyes4325 said:

I honestly think that Katherine has always dealt with self-esteem and she is more fragile than her professional persona would lead one to believe.  I can't get past that one scene that was a flashback to her returning the scarf to Delilah and how she tries to advance towards her in friendship but Delilah literally holds up her hands to symbolically block her...and then Eddie shows up from inside the house.  I think the fact that Katherine was not part of the group was devastating to her and this bizarre thing of her helping Delilah (hopefully not pro bono because...puh-lease!) is more of Katherine trying to make human contact.   I think it is clear that the whole "Katherine is toxic" line started with Eddie and, in doing so, he isolated his wife and she is trying to break out of that.

I kind of see her like that too. She seems to have a "people pleaser" personality and I think that might be both why she was attracted to Eddie / sticked around for so long and (partially) why she agreed to help Delilah. I don't see Eddy as a full-blown narcissist but he goes in that direction, which makes them an unhealthy but pretty common match, based on unresolved issues on both sides rather than common interests. I'm actually not sure if Eddie/Delilah wasn't a blessing in disguise for her; without a huge blow, she would probably greet her teeth and last decades despite being unhappy and feeling sort of used. IMO she's the one who tries to be the bigger person, takes pride in doing the right thing and tries to score points with others by being nice, doing favors, agreeing to help her husband's lover, etc.

It often happens on a subconscious level and it's probably only part of the reason, so I'm not saying there's nothing noble about her helping Delilah or taking on so much responsibility in her marriage. It's just that I don't agree with those who say that it's all great or that it makes her a saint; as always, multiple factors might be at play. 

Also, I feel like she's outside the group not because of what Eddie says about her, but because she's way more withdrawn than anyone else in their circle. I see her as the kind of person who will spend so much time thinking about what to say that before she does, Gary will manage to insult three different people, compliment two, pour out his heart on two separate matters, and top it with two jokes. Sure, it can be because the others spend more time together and feel more comfortable around each other, but I don't think that's it. IMO she doesn't fit there and the best course of action would be to stop trying. 

[Guest]

The discussion about Katherine here and the @pinkglove post about demonizing Delilah got me thinking about those two characters. 

Obviously the affair pitted them against each other but everything about their characterization makes them complete opposites.

Katherine’s motivations are clear, her story makes sense and the world around her is well developed. In contrast Delilah’s world is poorly developed and her motivations are uncertain. Katherine is active while Delilah is passive. 

Delilah’s marriage is falling apart and she ends up having an affair. Katherine marriage falls apart and she acknowledges the problems that existed before Delilah and chooses to walk away. 

In the most recent episode Katherine sees a problem with Theo so she reaches out to Eddie to figure out what is going on. At the same time we see Delilah putting off following through with a promise to Sophie. The reason was understandable but she doesn’t do anything to deal with Sophie’s disappointment. It was up to the rest of the group to step up and present an alternative solution.

Katherine finds out Hunter kept something important from her so she tells him she’s upset and calmly asks him to leave. Delilah finds out Jon kept something important from her and she throws things.

So I keep wondering if it is deliberate or just bad writing? Is Delilah supposed to be unlikeable?

Edited February 5, 2019 by Guest

[HazelEyes4325]

10 hours ago, Dani said:

The discussion about Katherine here and the @pinkglove post about demonizing Delilah got me thinking about those two characters. 

Obviously the affair pitted them against each other but everything about their characterization makes them complete opposites.

Katherine’s motivations are clear, her story makes sense and the world around her is well developed. In contrast Delilah’s world is poorly developed and her motivations are uncertain. Katherine is active while Delilah is passive. 

Delilah’s marriage is falling apart and she ends up having an affair. Katherine marriage falls apart and she acknowledges the problems that existed before Delilah and chooses to walk away. 

In the most recent episode Katherine sees a problem with Theo so she reaches out to Eddie to figure out what is going on. At the same time we see Delilah putting off following through with a promise to Sophie. The reason was understandable but she doesn’t do anything to deal with Sophie’s disappointment. It was up to the rest of the group to step up and present an alternative solution.

Katherine finds out Hunter kept something important from her so she tells him she’s upset and calmly asks him to leave. Delilah finds out Jon kept something important from her and she throws things.

So I keep wondering if it is deliberate or just bad writing? Is Delilah supposed to be unlikeable?

4

Great points!  I do hope that this is intentional in the writing.  If it is, I will instantly have more respect for Nash.  But, I get the feeling that it isn't...

As I said before, the best thing Nash could do is let Delilah be a Delilah.  Let her be self-absorbed and manipulative.  I mean, if you name a character DELILAH, you pretty much have to go that route (like, if you name a character Atticus, he should honorable; if you name a character Hermoine, she should be adorkable and the smartest person in the room; and if you name a character Adolf, he should want to march on Czechoslovakia).  Yet, all we hear from the show is how Delilah is in pain, Delilah is guilty, Delilah was neglected--yet, not only have not seen any evidence of that, we have seen nothing but evidence to the opposite.

Anyway, I hadn't lined up these two characters before, but you're right.  They are opposites in every way, yet Delilah is celebrated and Katherine is dumped on.  I really hope that Nash has a good plan for all this.  But I'm not holding my breath.

[Dusty]

I wish they would go more into the background of Katherine. And Katherine and Eddie. I can only remember one flashback that she really had any sort of part in was the concert one. We saw that she was at least aware that Eddie was starting to drink too much but it also looked like she was supportive of his band and musical career. She went to his concerts. They seemed happy together at that time. I've always had this headcanon that Katherine became more closed off after Eddie became an alcoholic. I just think that must've been devastating. We still don't know the battles she went through with him during that period. I just think it must've done a number on her because their life was seemingly going well. His band was doing well. She was probably getting started in her career and then it all starts to fall apart because of Eddie's alcoholism. So I think she just did whatever she thought she had to so that Eddie doesn't go back to drinking because when she thought everything was great, it all came crashing down. Eddie doesn't have to get a boring job that he hates. Eddie can stay home with Theo, who is honestly probably the only reason he's sober. Katherine then has to be the type of lawyer that makes a bunch of money, because you know their house isn't cheap, which means she has to work all the time. So she can't go to all the fun things with the group anymore. Maybe she wanted to be a high priced lawyer or she could've had different ambitions as a lawyer but we'll never know because we rarely see anything for Katherine. I have no real evidence from the show for this headcanon because we're shown so little for them in the past. From what little I've seen though, I don't think the "Katherine is toxic" narrative from Eddie/Gary started until after Eddie became sober.

My dad was what I would call a functional alcoholic. He was always able to go to work and as far as I know never drunk when he was at work but after that was a different story. I don't want to be insensitive to Eddie's alcoholism but I know what it's like to have to watch someone fall down that hole and no matter how hard you love them and try, you can't stop them. So I have a lot of sympathy for Katherine having to deal with that, especially since the worst of it seemed to be while she was pregnant. The trust was broken way before Eddie had the affair and they never got it back. I have a feeling that most, if not all, of the friends were like "Well he's sober now so everything is cool now." Whereas Katherine couldn't do that because she had to live with it and it's just different being the friend of an alcoholic and having to live with one.

[Fable]

My problem with Delilah is that is both unlikable and boring.  The actor doesn’t seem as strong as the rest of the cast, which, if the character was likable, would probably be tolerable.  Conversely, even if the character was unlikable, if the actor was able to elevate the writing to make her more interesting, that might also be okay.  As it stands, I find her neither likable nor interesting, and so for me, she is a blight on the show. 

[HazelEyes4325]

9 hours ago, Fable said:

My problem with Delilah is that is both unlikable and boring.  The actor doesn’t seem as strong as the rest of the cast, which, if the character was likable, would probably be tolerable.  Conversely, even if the character was unlikable, if the actor was able to elevate the writing to make her more interesting, that might also be okay.  As it stands, I find her neither likable nor interesting, and so for me, she is a blight on the show. 

I agree.  There is something to be said for being someone people love to hate.  Delilah is not written in a way that she is likable and Szostak doesn't play her in a way that at least elevates the character to "love to hate."  I think a better actress could at least do SOMETHING with her.

[MamaMax]

Hey there all. Binge watched all ep's on Hulu up to Rosary. I simulanteously love and hate this show, LOL, Love the concept, love the mystery aspect, really love a lot of the dialogue and have laughed out loud at times. Sometimes that try a little too hard with the tear-jerker stuff. HOWEVER...can we talk about how much they did NOT do their Boston area research? I am a native Bostonian, and I appreciate they they aren't trying to do any Good Will Hunting accents, but! They are using some words and phrases that NO ONE in Boston says! Most notably: I have never EVER heard anyone in Boston refer to it as "the subway." It is the T.  You might hear someone refer to the "red line" Green line" etc but NEVER EVER the subway.  Our main crew may or may not be locals...but I am sure the Cambridge "board" had to be...and even they kept saying "subway" stop. 

Thank you for listening. 

[OpalNightstream]

On 2/23/2019 at 4:54 AM, Fable said:

My problem with Delilah is that is both unlikable and boring.  The actor doesn’t seem as strong as the rest of the cast, which, if the character was likable, would probably be tolerable.  Conversely, even if the character was unlikable, if the actor was able to elevate the writing to make her more interesting, that might also be okay.  As it stands, I find her neither likable nor interesting, and so for me, she is a blight on the show. 

Yes it almost seems Iike the screen turns a shade of gray when Delilah is on. As if it’s a commercial for people dealing with depression. She’s so soft spoken all the time and just lacks any kind of personality. 

[Rebel Rebel]

I am trying to be respectful here, but does anyone really believe that the two non-White characters on this program would really be friends with these White characters. I realize that it is just a television program, so maybe the unlikelihood of  this fact is okay, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would buy this would happen in real life.

[doodlebug]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2019 at 3:25 AM, Rebel Rebel said:

I am trying to be respectful here, but does anyone really believe that the two non-White characters on this program would really be friends with these White characters. I realize that it is just a television program, so maybe the unlikelihood of  this fact is okay, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would buy this would happen in real life.

I really don't buy that ANY of these people would be besties.  They've got very little in common other than the 4 guys getting stuck in an elevator together once.  I could see that resulting in going out for beers afterwards or even all of them going to a Bruins' game once or twice since they discovered they were all fans.  But, this 'ride or die', always the first phone call, best friends forever thing makes no sense at all for these particular people.  Not to mention Gary's one night stand crashing Jon's funeral and being immediately incorporated as one of the inner circle.  These people have very strange boundaries when it comes to interactions with others.

Edited July 1, 2019 by doodlebug

[HazelEyes4325]

7 hours ago, doodlebug said:

I really don't buy that ANY of these people would be besties.  They've got very little in common other than the 4 guys getting stuck in an elevator together once.  I could see that resulting in going out for beers afterwards or even all of them going to a Bruins' game once or twice since they discovered they were all fans.  But, this 'ride or die', always the first phone call, best friends forever thing makes no sense at all for these particular people.  Not to mention Gary's one night stand crashing Jon's funeral and being immediately incorporated as one of the inner circle.  These people have very strange boundaries when it comes to interactions with others.

This is where I am.  I don't find it any more likely that Rome would be friends with Eddie and Gary (and Jon) than Eddie would be friends with Gary and Rome and Jon or any other combination.  As far as I can tell, none of these guys have anything in common with each other.  And why don't any of them have any other friends?

The fact that the friendship between the three (or four) main characters seems so unbelievable is one of the weakest, if not the weakest, parts of the show.

[OpalNightstream]

On 6/30/2019 at 3:25 AM, Rebel Rebel said:

I am trying to be respectful here, but does anyone really believe that the two non-White characters on this program would really be friends with these White characters. I realize that it is just a television program, so maybe the unlikelihood of  this fact is okay, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would buy this would happen in real life.

I think the common link here is socioeconomic. 

[HazelEyes4325]

On 7/31/2019 at 7:37 AM, OpalNightstream said:

I think the common link here is socioeconomic. 

I can't really buy that either.  Eddie is only in his socioeconomic sphere because of his wife.  As a cube-dwelling actuary, Gary wouldn't be in John's socioeconomic group (he'd also, you know, be at work sometimes...).  I kind of got the feeling that Rome and Regina weren't as well-off.  It seemed like Regina lost a lot with her last restaurant and Rome was doing the commercial work because he needed the money.

Here's the thing though...they make sense as friends when Jon is in the picture.  Jon was obviously the sort of guy who picked up strays and probably had some sort of codependent issue with needing people to need him.  However, take Jon out of the equation--which is exactly what this show did--the three remaining characters have nothing in common.  Now, watching them try to form relationships with each other in the absence of Jon would have been a really good show.  But that's not at all what we got.  No, we got Maggie, who never even knew Jon, and her will she/won't she croak...and Delilah just being as absolutely annoying and unlikable as possible.  It's a complete waste of potential of what could have been an excellent and unique show.

[DearEvette]

On 7/1/2019 at 11:48 AM, doodlebug said:

I really don't buy that ANY of these people would be besties.  They've got very little in common other than the 4 guys getting stuck in an elevator together once. 

I haven't re-watched any episodes of the show... not one conducive to re-watches... but I got the impression that Rome, Eddie and Gary were friends pre-John and that John made a huge impression on them?  I could be wrong.

But I agree, nothing about these 4 make sense in a friend manner.  We are just told they are friends and are supposed to be believe it.  But then again look how quickly they incorporated Maggie into their inner circle... she met them like a minute ago and suddenly she's everybody's bestie.

And even if we are to believe the guys are such ride or die besties, it doesn't follow that Regina and Delilah and Katherine would have to fall into that.  Another reason why I think Katherine is the most believable.

17 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I can't really buy that either.  Eddie is only in his socioeconomic sphere because of his wife.  As a cube-dwelling actuary, Gary wouldn't be in John's socioeconomic group (he'd also, you know, be at work sometimes...).  I kind of got the feeling that Rome and Regina weren't as well-off.  It seemed like Regina lost a lot with her last restaurant and Rome was doing the commercial work because he needed the money.

We know that Regina comes from a money.  Her mother was about to whip out her checkbook and write out a bunch of zeros without breaking a sweat.  Even if she rejected her mother's bail out,  I think we are supposed to get the impression that Regina has resources that don't come from a paycheck or making a living.  Again, not having re-watched, but I don't think she or Rome  were worried or fretted about  finances at all when he revealed he wanted to quit his job.

Edited August 4, 2019 by DearEvette

[jhlipton]

22 hours ago, DearEvette said:

We know that Regina comes from a money.  Her mother was about to whip out her checkbook and write out a bunch of zeros without breaking a sweat.  Even if she rejected her mother's bail out,  I think we are supposed to get the impression that Regina has resources that don't come from a paycheck or making a living.  Again, not having re-watched, but I don't think she or Rome  were worried or fretted about  finances at all when he revealed he wanted to quit his job.

My impression is that Regina wants none of her mom's money. Even when she was in dire straits, she wouldn't take that money for nothing! (#SorryNotSorry).

[HazelEyes4325]

In the spoiler thread, @sking24450 wrote (snipped to remove spoilers):

Quote

 it struck me that the thing that bothers me about this show is how the characters don't react like normal people. (snip) I wish this show would allow characters to react realistically without trying force this fake bond.

A day or so ago, I came across an interview with Nash where he talked about how he always lets "natural reactions" dictate what his characters do.  I didn't read far into the article (and I can't find it at the moment) because I am not entirely sure what universe he is from.  

I agree completely with SKING24450 that the characters' reactions almost always make no sense.  Katherine is a prime example:

She finds out that her husband cheated on her with her former best friend (which was never shown in the show, but apparently viewers are supposed to read all of the eleventy million Nash interviews to get the backstory).  A day or week (not very long, at least), she goes to dinner with her husband's mistress and all his friends who weren't ever, or at least not currently, her friends.  NO ONE WOULD EVER DO THAT.  I mean, yeah...maybe someone is a complete sadist doormat and at some point would go into that situation, but not a week at most after finding out about the affair.

Then, the mistress shows up on her doorstep and asks/demands hours of free legal work.  Again, no one would ever do that--not only would a woman not do that for her husband's mistress (she has absolutely no motivation to do so..), but I don't think any lawyer would take it on as it could impact their career.

Delilah is widely despised, yet continually portrayed as some sort of saint and martyr.  Her actions don't fit that narrative, except in Nash's mind.  I mean, he could either make her an antagonistic character OR he could have her act in a more realistic way, but he does neither.

Given the actions of most of the characters on this show, I'm not sure how any of them survived into adulthood.  Strangely, the character who seems to make the most sense is Eddie.  This isn't because Eddie is an especially well-written character but instead he's a character we've seen over and over again.  He's a manchild.  Manchildren are sometimes played as a comic relief (think Joey Tribbiani), but they always go through the same trajectory of late-onset growing up.  Nash didn't do a great job with creating Eddie, but he did (wisely?) choose an easy mold to work with and an actor who relishes not being liked by the audience.

I know I sound like a broken record when I say this, but this could be a really awesome show.  But, it...isn't.  I think it could still be turned around, but the clock is quickly ticking on that possibility.

[HazelEyes4325]

There is some discussion about Delilah over in the 02.01 thread, about what kind of person she is and why.  Since my comments are more wide-ranging than that episode, I thought I would move them over here.

Honestly, I think Delilah is an overgrown Princess.  She was probably indulged by her parents and whenever anything went wrong, Daddy (remember him?  The person for whom she is the caregiver but we've only seen him once and was never mentioned outside that episode?) came in to fix it.  Because of that, that is what she expects out of life and she has surrounded herself with people who will fill that role.  And, if you step out of your role, she wants you out of her life.

Jon very much seemed to be her dream spouse in that he was very giving to those around him.  His fatal flaw (pun intended) was that there were too many people around him and he couldn't give Delilah what she felt she deserved.  So she took it--from someone else's husband.

I'm not in the camp that Delilah is a stellar parent--whenever any actual parenting needs to take place, she calls one of her friends to come do it.  Usually Gary, but more recently Rome and Regina are called on more.  

Nash said in an interview--because apparently reading all his interviews is a pre-req for watching this show since that is where he gives all his backstory--Katherine and Delilah used to be best friends.  So what happened?  Did Katherine say no to her?  Katherine was struggling to be there for her husband and son, so she obviously couldn't lavish all her attention on Delilah.

Look, I get the Princess thing--I don't condone it, but it happens a lot with kids (usually girls, but I've seen some boys with it too).  But here's the thing, at some point life intervenes and these people have to take responsibility for their own lives...unless the princess complex goes deep and morphs into something else, in which case they become something like Delilah.

[Lady Calypso]

40 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I'm not in the camp that Delilah is a stellar parent--whenever any actual parenting needs to take place, she calls one of her friends to come do it.  Usually Gary, but more recently Rome and Regina are called on more.  

Fair. That's why I said in the episode thread that she was a good mom, but what I didn't add was that she's not necessarily a great one. She's a good mom, in the sense that she does love her children and provide them with what they need. She's still around and she's not abusing them or anything.

But yeah, her issue is relying on her support system too much for the simplest things (such as using Gary to talk to her kids when they're upset instead of doing it herself).

But I agree with your assessment that Delilah is used to be a spoiled Princess.

[sking24450]

2 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Nash said in an interview--because apparently reading all his interviews is a pre-req for watching this show since that is where he gives all his backstory--Katherine and Delilah used to be best friends.  So what happened?  Did Katherine say no to her?  Katherine was struggling to be there for her husband and son, so she obviously couldn't lavish all her attention on Delilah.

They really should leave this little tidbit in an interview and not let it become canon. At this stage it will just make people loathe Delilah more as if that were possible. 

[HazelEyes4325]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Fair. That's why I said in the episode thread that she was a good mom, but what I didn't add was that she's not necessarily a great one. She's a good mom, in the sense that she does love her children and provide them with what they need. She's still around and she's not abusing them or anything.

Right, her kids have their material needs met and she does provide emotional support when it is easy (if not, she calls in Gary).  I don't question that she loves her kid as far as she can love anyone besides herself, but it isn't a selfless love.

27 minutes ago, sking24450 said:

They really should leave this little tidbit in an interview and not let it become canon. At this stage it will just make people loathe Delilah more as if that were possible. 

Actually, I really think they shouldn't let Nash give interviews without some adult supervision.  

[geauxaway]

Is Ashley gone for good?  

[HazelEyes4325]

3 hours ago, geauxaway said:

Is Ashley gone for good?  

Supposedly not?  I saw something that she's supposed to reappear at some point during season 2.  I don't care either way, although I do want an explanation on why the suicide note she gave Delilah bore absolutely no resemblance to the suicide note Jon left and she stole.

[debraran]

On 10/6/2019 at 12:21 PM, HazelEyes4325 said:

Supposedly not?  I saw something that she's supposed to reappear at some point during season 2.  I don't care either way, although I do want an explanation on why the suicide note she gave Delilah bore absolutely no resemblance to the suicide note Jon left and she stole.

Nash, who says way to much, said she'd be back because "this is a soap" I feel he doesn't take the show seriously but has serious topics which has lost him some fans. I only know about 30 in all that started off watching, work, sisters, friends etc. This year, no one cared that I said it was back on. My sister still watches but she it's not her favorite show, she catches up when she has time.

I guess some started out loving it and still do, some were not sure what it was (few coworkers said that) and when it went really night soap with melodrama, dumb plots, babies from adultery which is so tired, they bowed out. Some like me watch hoping for Jon flashbacks and disconnect a bit watching some of them.

Time will tell if he keeps the young demographic, his strongest area,  but he needs more than that.

Edited October 8, 2019 by debraran