S11.E10: The Battle Of Ranskoor Av Kolos

[Cruella]

What a  pathetic loser this Tim Shaw creature is - 3000 years and two of the most powerful beings in existance at his full disposal, and yet he failed to destroy one insipid planet like Earth. For 3000 years! 

"Not killing" is nice and all, but if they simply locked up this Shaw thing in this cell (I was deathly bored so might have missed something), isn't it infinitely more cruel? I don't know about these species, but humans can go insane in solitary confinement, especially one that long, without any movement or variety. Personally, I imagine someone finding Tim Shaw a hundred years later, insane and drooling, and putting him out of his misery, while wondering what sort of monster had done it to him. And he probably deserves to go insane, if only for his stupidity, but let's not pretend torturing someone into madness is any more ethical that shooting them. 

I guess someone might come soon and grab him? Or?... None of that was well explained. 

[Dobian]

On 12/17/2018 at 12:48 PM, RobertDeSneero said:

There have to be core values that are constant throughout all of the Doctor's incarnations.  There is a reason for choosing that name that a regeneration does not change.  And we have seen a swing from a curmudgeon who seemed like a misanthrope to someone who seems to have picked strangers to serve as a surrogate family.  Isn't an angst-free Doctor enough of a change?

I feel like the story arc is coming.  This season was about establishing themes and characters.

Maybe the point is that gender-fluid regenerations are completely natural and aren't something that needs to be "handled".  Do you need an episode where the Doctor dismisses any question about difficulty by saying that it was no problem at all?

I don't see why it needs to be defined as a "problem", just that it would be interesting to see what the Doctor feels experiencing things as a female after 2000 years as a male.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Dobian

[DanaK]

16 minutes ago, Dobian said:

I don't see why it needs to be defined as a "problem", just that it would be interesting to see what the Doctor feels experiencing things as a female after 2000 years as a male.

We saw her delight at being included in Umbreen’s women-only pre-wedding party in Demons of the Punjab and her annoyance at being dismissed by King James in Witchfinders. In Rosa, after being addressed as Madam, she commented to herself that she was still getting used to that. It’s not a big deal for Time Lords so she would likely adjust quickly. It is how others treat her that has been and will be the bigger thing

50 minutes ago, Cruella said:

What a  pathetic loser this Tim Shaw creature is - 3000 years and two of the most powerful beings in existance at his full disposal, and yet he failed to destroy one insipid planet like Earth. For 3000 years! 

"Not killing" is nice and all, but if they simply locked up this Shaw thing in this cell (I was deathly bored so might have missed something), isn't it infinitely more cruel? I don't know about these species, but humans can go insane in solitary confinement, especially one that long, without any movement or variety. Personally, I imagine someone finding Tim Shaw a hundred years later, insane and drooling, and putting him out of his misery, while wondering what sort of monster had done it to him. And he probably deserves to go insane, if only for his stupidity, but let's not pretend torturing someone into madness is any more ethical that shooting them. 

I guess someone might come soon and grab him? Or?... None of that was well explained. 

It was a stasis chamber, so he likely would be in suspended animation

[Cruella]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

It was a stasis chamber, so he likely would be in suspended animation

That's probably correct (he's not supposed to die from hunger, afterall), but in this case, he's not going to be thinking about Grace or anyone, right? And if he's out of it in stasis chamber- and stays this way forever - he might as well be dead. It's like putting someone to permanent sleep - basically same as death, which isn't called eternal sleep for nothing.  A permanent coma of sorts.

At best they are leaving him to be other people's problems when he wakes up. 

[benteen]

Yeah, I think Tim Shaw is just being put on ice.

I will say though, if a guy can think of nothing but revenge for 3,407 then he can deal with 3,407 years of imprisonment.  He proved he was incapable of learning to change his ways.

[DanaK]

In regards to Yaz's development, I think she's had plenty to do, but she hasn't had the same flashy and emotional arc that Graham and Ryan have had. Hers is more understated I think, in that she wanted more to do than she got as a young police officer and now she's mentoring with a 2000 year old alien that she looks up to and likely idolizes and takes initiative to talk to people or investigate things on their adventures. She's also a sounding board for the Doctor, which sometimes can be a thankless task

[Llywela]

I think one thing we've all maybe struggled with a bit this season is that the character development and character stories haven't been front and centre, the way we've become used to over the 15 years of New Who - they are there, but have largely been playing out in the background of each episode, subtle and understated, only rarely stepping into focus. Which, combined with the lack of an ongoing story arc to hold everything together, left the season feeling a bit aimless - each episode perfectly enjoyable on its own merit, but with no clearly defined overall theme or focus to give the season any real structure as a whole.

[DanaK]

52 minutes ago, Llywela said:

I think one thing we've all maybe struggled with a bit this season is that the character development and character stories haven't been front and centre, the way we've become used to over the 15 years of New Who - they are there, but have largely been playing out in the background of each episode, subtle and understated, only rarely stepping into focus. Which, combined with the lack of an ongoing story arc to hold everything together, left the season feeling a bit aimless - each episode perfectly enjoyable on its own merit, but with no clearly defined overall theme or focus to give the season any real structure as a whole.

Looking at it as an American viewer who watches a lot of broadcast TV and not that much cable, I don't necessarily need a season-long arc or theme. But I think one theme this season is the characters getting to know themselves and each other and developing as a team

ETA: And there were two small season arcs this season. In the first one, we got various tidbits about the Stenza hurting people and then a revisit with Tim Shaw. The second was Graham and Ryan mourning Grace and growing closer

Edited December 19, 2018 by DanaK

[Llywela]

46 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Looking at it as an American viewer who watches a lot of broadcast TV and not that much cable, I don't necessarily need a season-long arc or theme. But I think one theme this season is the characters getting to know themselves and each other and developing as a team

ETA: And there were two small season arcs this season. In the first one, we got various tidbits about the Stenza hurting people and then a revisit with Tim Shaw. The second was Graham and Ryan mourning Grace and growing closer

Yes, I understand that, but those arcs did not play out in the way we've come to expect from Doctor Who - they were subtle, background material for the most part, only cropping up occasionally, rather than being structured as the backbone of the season as a whole. It was a very different approach, is my point, and that kind of change in a show can be a bit jarring, which is what I expect many long-term viewers are reacting to when they comment on the season.

Funny you should say that as an American viewer you don't feel you need a season-long arc, because it is a storytelling approach that originated in the US and it is rare these days to find a show that doesn't use that narrative structure in some shape or form, on either side of the Atlantic.

[DanaK]

Just now, Llywela said:

Funny you should say that as an American viewer you don't feel you need a season-long arc, because it is a storytelling approach that originated in the US and it is rare these days to find a show that doesn't use that narrative structure in some shape or form, on either side of the Atlantic.

That's usually with cable and streaming shows. I watch a lot of procedurals, plus given I'm older, I think I predate the more serialized approach lol

[ganesh]

There's no rule that the show has to have a season long arc.

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, ganesh said:

There's no rule that the show has to have a season long arc.

I didn't say there was a rule. I said that viewers had become accustomed to that structure and some of the complaints we've seen may be a reaction to how jarring it perhaps feels to experience such a different seasonal format this year. It was just a suggestion!

Personally, I do think that a more structured approach to the season might have alleviated some of the problems I had with the season, overall. I thought that taken as a whole, the season felt quite unfocused and aimless. The characters weren't really the main focus of the season (they had development, sure, but it was never the focus, throughout), but neither was there any other strong focus to hold the season together as a whole, and the lack thereof kind of exposed the weakness of some of the episodes-of-the-week, imo. We can live with weak stories if we get great characters, and we can live with weak characters if they inhabit great stories, but when both sides of the seesaw are flat, that's when we start to struggle with it. That, for me, was the biggest problem this season had: it was bursting with potential, both in the characters and the concepts, but failed to fully realise that potential. And I say that as someone who generally enjoyed the season, but acknowledges that it was lacking a certain something that would have taken it from bubblegum fluff to truly excellent TV.

A bit of genuine conflict and tension between the characters would have helped, too - they were all a bit too nice, if that makes sense.

[alias1]

20 hours ago, ganesh said:

There's no rule that the show has to have a season long arc.

I agree.  After Moffat's overblown, grandiose season long arcs, I was happy there wasn't one.  I liked just getting to know the characters.   

[ganesh]

And if they had a season arc most people would say, "it's the same thing all over again." Given the obvious abruptness, the narrative direction was the right choice. 

[Bruinsfan]

On 12/14/2018 at 5:03 PM, supposebly said:

I agree. Also, all these thousands of years Moffat added to the Doctor's life (or Rory's) mostly off-screen to add some weight to some of his rather thin characterization.

At some point, such a character would always be "been there, done that... thousands of times". And I sit there wondering, why is he so upset? Why isn't he in a jar by now?

How many thousands of years was he trapped in that tower before he got through to Gallifrey? Why did it have to be so many? The plot would have worked if he had been stuck there for 50 years or 100 years just as well.

Four and a half billion years if I remember correctly, though I think the Doctor was only supposed to actually remember from the last time he got reintegrated by the teleportation device. His knowledge of prior loops through the Confession dial was supposed to be via deducation rather than actually remembering his experiences.

Edited December 20, 2018 by Bruinsfan

[benteen]

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

I didn't say there was a rule. I said that viewers had become accustomed to that structure and some of the complaints we've seen may be a reaction to how jarring it perhaps feels to experience such a different seasonal format this year. It was just a suggestion!

Personally, I do think that a more structured approach to the season might have alleviated some of the problems I had with the season, overall. I thought that taken as a whole, the season felt quite unfocused and aimless. The characters weren't really the main focus of the season (they had development, sure, but it was never the focus, throughout), but neither was there any other strong focus to hold the season together as a whole, and the lack thereof kind of exposed the weakness of some of the episodes-of-the-week, imo. We can live with weak stories if we get great characters, and we can live with weak characters if they inhabit great stories, but when both sides of the seesaw are flat, that's when we start to struggle with it. That, for me, was the biggest problem this season had: it was bursting with potential, both in the characters and the concepts, but failed to fully realise that potential. And I say that as someone who generally enjoyed the season, but acknowledges that it was lacking a certain something that would have taken it from bubblegum fluff to truly excellent TV.

A bit of genuine conflict and tension between the characters would have helped, too - they were all a bit too nice, if that makes sense.

Yeah, the stories definitely suffered this season.  It's what I've said about using classic monsters.  I didn't think it was a bad idea not to them but if you aren't, then make sure the new monsters that you create are memorable ones.  Chibnall failed miserably there.

Also, as another poster brought up, we see very little one-on-one scenes between The Doctor and companions.  She almost always addresses them as a group.  I think that has hurt the companions development this season.

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Also, as another poster brought up, we see very little one-on-one scenes between The Doctor and companions.  She almost always addresses them as a group.  I think that has hurt the companions development this season.

Yeah, that was also me. :) I said that.

I re-watched this episode tonight with my other half, who hadn't had a chance to see it yet. What struck me most particularly on re-watch was how padded the episode was - so much standing around, talking endlessly, instead of getting on and doing stuff. Graham and Ryan do it when they find the room full of hostages in cryo-sleep. They keep saying, over and over, how little time they have and how long it's going to take to hack into all those cryo-pods...yet instead of getting on with this Very Important Task, they take time out to talk about their feelings, at length, and then tell us again what a rush it's going to be to finish the job. Ever heard of multi-tasking, guys? Or mission-focus? And the Doctor does it repeatedly, throughout the episode - talks at length about the latest knotty problem she's run into and how little time she has to solve it, and oh dear what a dilemma this is, however will she come up with a solution in time, etc, where we might more usually expect the Doctor to just...solve the problem, and explain what they are doing as they do it. It's a really dialogue-heavy episode, and a lot of that dialogue is repetitive, designed to pad things out, rather than actually advancing either the plot or the action.

[benteen]

17 hours ago, Llywela said:

Yeah, that was also me. :) I said that.

I re-watched this episode tonight with my other half, who hadn't had a chance to see it yet. What struck me most particularly on re-watch was how padded the episode was - so much standing around, talking endlessly, instead of getting on and doing stuff. Graham and Ryan do it when they find the room full of hostages in cryo-sleep. They keep saying, over and over, how little time they have and how long it's going to take to hack into all those cryo-pods...yet instead of getting on with this Very Important Task, they take time out to talk about their feelings, at length, and then tell us again what a rush it's going to be to finish the job. Ever heard of multi-tasking, guys? Or mission-focus? And the Doctor does it repeatedly, throughout the episode - talks at length about the latest knotty problem she's run into and how little time she has to solve it, and oh dear what a dilemma this is, however will she come up with a solution in time, etc, where we might more usually expect the Doctor to just...solve the problem, and explain what they are doing as they do it. It's a really dialogue-heavy episode, and a lot of that dialogue is repetitive, designed to pad things out, rather than actually advancing either the plot or the action.

Yes, it was you.  Gold star for your suggestion, Llywela because you're absolutely right.

I also agree with you on the stopping the action to talk part.  This has been a problem for me as well.  There was way too much exposition this season and that contributed to some of my problems with the show.  I think the 50 minute runtimes has been a contributor to that problem and that the show would benefit from a tighter run time.

[Andrew Wiggin]

There is no set Runtime of 50min for the Episodes .

And i cant remember there was a Problem bevor with the Runtime of the Show.

If you got 3 Episodes less and your Show feels bloated the writing is off......

Edited December 22, 2018 by Andrew Wiggin

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Andrew Wiggin said:

There is no set Runtime of 50min for the Episodes .

And i cant remember there was a Problem bevor with the Runtime of the Show.

If you got 3 Episodes less and your Show feels bloated the writing is off......

Yes, there is a set runtime for the episodes. Of course there is. Every show on TV has a set runtime. Doctor Who is given a specific timeslot by the BBC and the episodes are structured accordingly. Traditionally, New Who has had a runtime of 45 minutes. This season that runtime has increased slightly to 50 minutes, meaning the writers had an extra five minutes to fill in each episode. The padding we've noted in some episodes could be down to that, it could be down to the structure and pacing of the various individual episodes, since there were a few inexperienced writers on board this season, or it could be a slightly dodgy stylistic decision on the part of the showrunner. Hard to tell. It has nothing to do with the reduced episode count, however, because there was no seasonal arc for the writers to try to pace over the course of the season. Every episode was standalone.

You are right that the writing was off, though. It wasn't far off, there was a lot to enjoy this season, with concepts and characters bursting with potential, but the whole ended up being less than the sum of its parts. And tighter, more focused writing would definitely have helped.

[Andrew Wiggin]

The Episodes are around 46 to 50 min .

The Witchfinder only got around 46 min most Episodes are 48 min.

So you dont need to fill a Episode up to the max.

And mostly the Episodes are cut because there is more Material as Airtime (in every TV Show) ,so if the Episodes look bloated after the cut,the Writing and Editing is off this Season.

[Last Time Lord]

Just finished. 

I loved this episode. I loved this season. I love these characters. I’ve missed the feeling of fun that this had that has been missing since Matt Smith’s first season ended, and I am so glad it is back.

[benteen]

As pointed out, episodes actually have The Doctor stopping for several minutes so that she can spout some long, boring and confusing exposition. 

[tv-talk]

So I've now watched most of the episodes this season and have to say I'm not too impressed. Seems to me it should have either been perfectly natural for the Doctor to be a woman (my preferred angle) or it should have been a big deal that she had to work thru and understand. Instead it was somewhere in the middle where she didnt know who she really was but the fact of being a woman didn't seem to be the cause. Did not like how long it took her to BE the Doctor. Also probably a minority opinion but I'm only so-so fond of Whittaker's Doctor so far. She comes off as a bit too manic and the jumbled, lengthy dialogue during emergencies seems forced to me and slows the show down. To me, it almost feels like she is trying too hard.

 

This mini-finale episode really missed the mark with nothing bigger happening than this bizarre revenge plot. Tim Shaw going on about being a "God" but really he was nothing more than run-of-the-mill baddie who had to phsyically chase people and was completely taken out by...being shot in the foot? Sorry but there is just no gravity to that, it was absurd and made the episode seem silly.

The growth between Ryan and Graham has been nice but I feel as if Yaz has been kind of left out which is a shame because I had high hopes for her. There is no one for her to play off of tho, she seems relegated to listening to the Doctor talk a bit too much at inopportune times. Hopefully with Ryan and Graham as mates now, there will be some development story coming her way.  

 

In the end while I thought the series was ok and has potential to be good with some tweaks, overall I did feel it missed the mark. You have this momentous season of the first woman Doctor and nothing really happens but some ok-to-poor episode of the week type things. She deserved better material.

[tv-talk]

On 12/20/2018 at 12:41 PM, ganesh said:

And if they had a season arc most people would say, "it's the same thing all over again." Given the obvious abruptness, the narrative direction was the right choice. 

Probably but bbca is in midst of Who marathon and I have to say Matt Smith got some epic material. I mean the scene in Pandorica where he is at Stonehenge and stands off the multitudes of alien ships above based solely on fact he IS the Doctor and that based on his history with these races they all fear him to the extent they believe that vaporizing him on the spot wouldnt actually work, that somewhere in the past he'd exact his revenge and ruin their present- that scene had the weight of the entirety of the series behind it, all the way back to Hartnell. In comparison, Whitaker got nothing. On one hand I can appreciate not having EVERY SINGLE EPISODE be the penultimate moment for the Doctor that surpasses everything that came before (the Moffat way)...but otoh the fact that Moffat did run the show like that means that comparatively this season was very hum-drum. To me it felt like Whitaker didnt get to BE the Doctor based on the material and then had to try too hard- for instance her speech marveling at the anti-matter drive in The Tsuranga Conundrum, to me that felt very forced and an effort for her to 'prove' she was the Doctor in terms of how she thought of the anti-matter drive. That's a far inferior script to what Smith was working with imo.

[ganesh]

Yeah that was my point.

[QuantumMechanic]

On 12/30/2018 at 12:23 AM, tv-talk said:

To me it felt like Whitaker didnt get to BE the Doctor based on the material and then had to try too hard- for instance her speech marveling at the anti-matter drive in The Tsuranga Conundrum, to me that felt very forced and an effort for her to 'prove' she was the Doctor in terms of how she thought of the anti-matter drive. That's a far inferior script to what Smith was working with imo.

We've decided to start re-watching Series 5 and last night's rewatch of "The Eleventh Hour" just drives home how far this season has fallen (and yes, I know that "The Beast Below" and "Victory of the Daleks" up next are nothing to write home about).

[Pattycake2]

Finally got around to watching this episode and I hated it.  This Doctor is definitely no “oncoming storm”.  Blab, blab, blab. Do not kill the Stenza who probably exterminated thousands, if not millions.  I’m beginning to wonder if, in the New Year’s special, The Doctor will send the daleks on vacation to Dalekland.  

Question for you Brits - what type of commercials are shown during the show?  In the US, not a single commercial is aimed at kids or their parents which indicates to me that the show is not being pitched to children.

[HauntedBathroom]

The show airs on the BBC, no adverts except for other programmes either side of it.

1 hour ago, Pattycake2 said:

Do not kill the Stenza who probably exterminated thousands, if not millions.

He pickled five planets, billions at least.