What do you think WILL happen? Or what do you think SHOULD happen?

[Amethyst]

Since there is no real arc on the show right now, can they just bring back Moloch and say he didn't die?  It can't be any worse than what we got.  All of s1 was leading to this huge showdown between him and the Witnesses and they screwed it up in s2.  

 

I'm all for Ash and Joe Corbin returning.  Hawley can come back if he's written the way he was in the latter half of the season (as a supporting character) not the first.

 

No more dumping every dead person in Purgatory.  Isn't Lori Mills still trapped there?  It would be nice if there was an episode dedicated to getting her out so her spirit can pass on.

[jhlipton]

What will happen?  At least half of the season will be spent in the past (Abbie who?) and we'll get one Very Special Episode featuring the Mills Sisters (Mama Part 2).

[Julia]

So here's my issue.

 

I don't like the genre they've pushed the show into. Back when it was must-see TV for me, what I was watching for was someone from the past being pushed out of his (privileged, aristocratic, affluent, educated, liberal for the standards of his day) comfort zone by a smart, self-assured, pragmatic, funny, badass cop.

 

It definitely added something that the cop was african american and a woman, because no matter how liberal he thought he was, he was a creature of his time, and she was there to challenge his unthinking assumptions. Then both of them had to work their way through cracked out history and the apocalypse? That's not something there's one of on every channel. Sign me up.

 

Only then Katrina, only not Katrina as a rival, because I really don't care who Ichabod sleeps with. Katrina as a representative of Ichabod's old world who has so little interest in ours that she never noticed that literally no other woman she met had her breasts shoved up to her jawline by her corset (although hey, maybe that's what she learned from watching The Bachelor). Katrina who chose to spend all her time with her undead former fiance the decapitated incarnation instead of her husband. Katrina, who has lied to everyone she ever spoke to that we know of, but who got to decide what direction they were going to go in because Katrina.

 

Meanwhile Abbie, the sensible one, went from being one of the pillars to being Samwise Gamgee, and I stopped watching at some point, because I've seen that movie.

 

Mr. and Mrs. Smith? I've seen that movie too. Dozens of times. I've even seen the versions where "Mrs. Smith" was wearing a corset. Not interested even a little.

 

Now, there's every possibility that someone in promotion decided to use that description because the Jolie-Pitts are a square-jawed hero-with-NYLF (ninja you...) pair their audience will know and think well of, and really Betsy Ross is going to be a fascinating proto-feminist character who's going to bond with, say, Jenny over their mutual ability to kick ass and leave Abbie and Ichabod nettled, and bring out Nikki Reed's hitherto unnoticed ability to make me interested in the character she's playing and, if so, mazel tov. 

 

But unless, as above, it's just a staggeringly undeft description of what they have planned, it's not the show I fell in love with.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Julia

[cynic]

So here's my issue.

I don't like the genre they've pushed the show into. Back when it was must-see TV for me, what I was watching for was someone from the past being pushed out of his (privileged, aristocratic, affluent, educated, liberal for the standards of his day) comfort zone by a smart, self-assured, pragmatic, funny, badass cop.

It definitely added something that the cop was african american and a woman, because no matter how liberal he thought he was, he was a creature of his time, and she was there to challenge his unthinking assumptions. Then both of them had to work their way through cracked out history and the apocalypse? That's not something there's one of on every channel. Sign me up.

...

THIS. This was the appeal of the show for me - kinda foppish, kinda cranky Ichabod as a historical fish out of water dealing with modern times and strong (though she has issues of her own), sensible, straight-talking Abbie teaching him and laughing at him (with love) as they fight the apocalypse together. The show was more fresh and worked better when it concentrated on present day and Crane was an anomaly. The past flashbacks work to flesh out his character and to provide insights to the plot, but the show suffers when they're used too heavily. I'm not here for straight history/historical romance. I watch Turn for that. I'm here for the crazy juxtaposition of a modern cop show with two hundred year old Crane and a headless horseman wielding a machine gun.

[Yolapukka]

I think we'll see Pandora both in the past and present, she'll relate to Betsy's activities in the past and Abbie's current mission with Ichabod. What with the ancient Greek mythological references I guess she's if not immortal, at least extraordinarily long lived. I just hope they don't make her too derivative of Maryann Forrester (True Blood), though I don't think they'd be putting Faaaaaahbulous sex parties in the Sleepy Hollow universe.

Edited September 25, 2015 by yuggapukka

[MissAlmond]

I have no idea where this post should go, so moderators please move it if I'm in the wrong place.

 

I just wanted to drop by to say "hi" and that SH has already been scheduled on my DVR.  I stuck to my vow and pretty much stayed away from all things SH this summer although I do know it appears Headless won't be around this season (why oh why writers?)   My brief browsing also indicates SH didn't take my advice (ha!) and focus on The Town! The Town! The Town!  I still believe that would have been the best route for recovery.  But I'm ready to watch again; let the heads roll as they may!

 

Miss Almond

[cynic]

... The Town! The Town! The Town!  I still believe that would have been the best route for recovery.  But I'm ready to watch again; let the heads roll as they may!

I'm with you. I've always wanted more focus on the town. I wanted to meet more re-enactors (even without Caroline *sob*), revisit that bookstore owner, and involve the precinct more. (What happened to the "you think he can hear us" guys? They were fun.) It also would make sense with all the freaky happenings in town that there would be other people around with knowledge that could help our gang out. It's too bad the powers that be decided to kill off all the Freemasons,.

 

But yeah, I'm ready for the premiere. I need Thursday to come already!

[phoenics]

Oooh the Freemasons... what a lost opportunity.

[Miss Dee]

Eh, it's a big brotherhood. They can add more.

[cynic]

Oooh the Freemasons... what a lost opportunity.

IKR?! The Freemasons with their rich history and all the mystery and conspiracy theories surrounding them would have been great fodder for the show and the various members could have added a wealth of recurring actors to the cast. They had James Frain for goodness sakes. I couldn't believe it when they killed them all off like they were nothing. I bet this was when Goffman was finally able to take over the reins without being bound by stories already in the pipeline. It was like boom, they killed the Freemasons, then they revealed the Horseman was Abraham, and then came Sanctuary, the baby, and the CFD in quick succession. For me, that was the turning point. 

 

Anyway, I would love if they brought them back. Tying supernatural activities to all the various theories about them over the years is way more interesting to me than love interests.

[netlyon2]

Phoenics and cynic, I agree with you on the Freemasons!  Also, the same can be said for the Hessians.  One of my favorite minor, one-shot characters is the piano teacher from "The Lesser Key of Solomon."  Characters like that can really help to (1) create the feeling that Sleepy Hollow is an actual town with real people in it and (2) add layers to the "good people vs. demons" fight, since the Hessians are people who aren't possessed.  Even though they were agents of Moloch, I think that the show has given them enough of a foundation in Ichabod's flashbacks that they can exits in a show where Moloch is dead.  Ditto on the Hellfire Club.

 

Human baddies in the war between good and evil can be just as interesting as demonic ones!

[phoenics]

IKR?! The Freemasons with their rich history and all the mystery and conspiracy theories surrounding them would have been great fodder for the show and the various members could have added a wealth of recurring actors to the cast. They had James Frain for goodness sakes. I couldn't believe it when they killed them all off like they were nothing. I bet this was when Goffman was finally able to take over the reins without being bound by stories already in the pipeline. It was like boom, they killed the Freemasons, then they revealed the Horseman was Abraham, and then came Sanctuary, the baby, and the CFD in quick succession. For me, that was the turning point.

 

Anyway, I would love if they brought them back. Tying supernatural activities to all the various theories about them over the years is way more interesting to me than love interests.

I was thinking this EXACT same thing when I wrote about the Freemasons - that I bet Goffman just did that to kill that whole plot line and to switch to CFD. I remember being upset because I knew how rich of a story the Freemasons could have. I mean - it made NO sense to kill them off - yet keep the Hessians (they were in early parts of Season 2). I also think that Goffman was trying to serialize the show and didn't even want to try to touch the whole "National Treasure" and "Da Vinci Code" stuff that could be connected to the Freemasons.

It was one of the signals that S1 was going in a new direction - because they were barely on the show. Besides, they can't ALL be dead - because there are many Freemasons even now - maybe we will find out they went underground?

I would love it if they brought them back too.

It would give the story a built in mythology too - very easy to bring them in. 

[cynic]

Yes, it did seem like Goffman was more comfortable writing family drama than the, admittedly more complicated, conspiracy plots so he did away with them as much as possible. I loved the National Treasure/Da Vinci Code aspects though, so I hope season 3 brings that back to the forefront. 

 

Maybe someone could come to town trying to recreate the Freemasons (or even resurrect them if they want to go supernatural). 

 

And yes to the Hessians. I'd like to know more about them. I totally agree that human baddies can be very interesting, especially since they're actually outwardly  turning against their own kind to side with the evil, but might have very complex reasons for their actions. I'm hoping the villains this season will be multi-faceted with more depth and won't be motivated by simple jealousy and bitterness. 

[Julia]

And yes to the Hessians. I'd like to know more about them. I totally agree that human baddies can be very interesting, especially since they're actually outwardly  turning against their own kind to side with the evil, but might have very complex reasons for their actions. I'm hoping the villains this season will be multi-faceted with more depth and won't be motivated by simple jealousy and bitterness. 

 

and not that it matters, but Irving used them as villains more than once (the Horseman was supposed to be one in the original story).

[Yolapukka]

The show gets bonus points from me if Ichabod introduces Betsy to a mariner named Ashburn, since that was the name of her second husband.

[MissAlmond]

 

 

Phoenics and cynic, I agree with you on the Freemasons!  Also, the same can be said for the Hessians.  One of my favorite minor, one-shot characters is the piano teacher from "The Lesser Key of Solomon."  Characters like that can really help to (1) create the feeling that Sleepy Hollow is an actual town with real people in it and (2) add layers to the "good people vs. demons" fight, since the Hessians are people who aren't possessed.  Even though they were agents of Moloch, I think that the show has given them enough of a foundation in Ichabod's flashbacks that they can exits in a show where Moloch is dead.  Ditto on the Hellfire Club.

 

Human baddies in the war between good and evil can be just as interesting as demonic ones!

 

 

         Darn it, I've forgotten how to quote! (update, wait, maybe I do!)

         ITA with bringing back the Freemasons and the Hessians.  The surviving Freemasons could have been in hiding as they waited for the "sign" to reappear. The witches that were called to Henry's bell should be out there too.  Also, Abbie and Ichabod should run into Seamus the Shaman who blasts them for calling on Henry Parish's services in the first place when Seamus had already proven his loyalty with the Sandman.   Maybe with Pandora coming to Sleepy Hollow to wreck havoc, perhaps the rest of the town will follow accordingly.

 

MissAlmond

Edited September 30, 2015 by MissAlmond

[MissAlmond]

I should add I am and shall remain 100% a shipper: S2, this so-called SexyBetsy, and all.  But I've always expected *that* story to evolve slowly.  The Town! OTOH?  Get to it, Sleepy Hollow! 

 

MissAlmond

[phoenics]

Bringing this over from the I, Witness thread (well, a continuation of the "scary monster" discussion) ...

In addition to truly terrifying monsters, what I hope happens this season (no real hint of this in the premiere yet) is that we see more people in Sleepy Hollow who are agents of good and evil.

In S1 - we had the Hessians - dudes who were hanging around and serving Moloch and the side of evil.

We also had the Masons - they were for good.

Plus witches (I know the fatigue here though)...

I think we need the "surprise" of there being a big bad or other evil forces coming at our heroes from familiar characters or from regular Sleepy Hollowers.

In the Pilot - you had regular cops actually SEE Headless (even if they recanted later). There were all of these characters there to give depth to the story - psychiatrists, etc., doctors, lawyers, police chiefs, etc.. The show is going to introduce Abbie's new boss and Joe Corbin - can we get a connection to some other people in Sleepy Hollow who are either for good or for evil?

I'm trying to think of who they could bring in as people who have been watching and waiting for the end of days? The Masons would be the best ones - they could be resurrected. They should still keep the Hessians - I don't know how you remove them, but somehow Betsy Ross is relevant? So they could still be involved.

And they only killed some of the Masons - clearly there are more. They need to bring those guys back.

And who was the Father (from the Pilot) from? Was he just a warlock? I never understood why they killed him off - or killed him off without there being another left behind who could carry on the whole "waiting around for the Apocalypse" thing, or "waiting around to protect/hide something" thing.

I do think opening up the mythology makes sense - as long as it still ties into the concept of the Biblical Apocalypse. Even in Season 1, they had monsters that were CLEARLY not from Biblical sources - the sand man for one. And they had non-biblical ways of fighting that (the Shaman). They can do the same thing and tie it all back to the founding fathers still.

I think the whole "Evil has returned to Sleepy Hollow" is fine and all - but it shouldn't just be a generic evil - it has more weight and power if it's tied to the Apocalypse (or evil's repeated efforts to bring the Apocalypse about).

And the ONLY way to finally stop the Apocalypse is to finally stop the biggest big bad of them all (or that should be the point, imo).

I always thought that Moloch was just ONE big bad - but not the BADDEST - wouldn't that be the devil/Lucifer? I figured that the final tribulation would be fighting THAT big bad.

So - another Big Bad would be whoever Pandora works for, right? Hopefully she is working for someone and not just the big bad all by herself. Cause that won't hold attention, imo.

[Julia]

I suspect they're going to start moving Ichabod and Abbie together, or at least providing a lot more shipbait. And I think that because I've seen it before. Season 3, Bones, when they reset to highlight the UST? Booth has to woo Brennan into working with him again after he doesn't talk Zach out of going to the middle east. Season 3 Castle (which is to say, all the Bones arcs you love, now with a different Whedon boy) when their fifteen second snippets/week of promotable UST became the focus of the show? Castle has to woo Beckett into working with him again after he blows her off to spend the summer in the Hamptons with his ex.

 

Then they all brooded for the better part of a decade. Boy, that was fun. 

 

A quote from Clifton Campbell

 

The partnerships between Booth (David Boreanaz) and Brennan (Emily Deschanel) and Abbie and Crane are very similar, and if we want to, we can look downrange at the banter that Booth and Brennan had and say well, we are having versions of what those two had early on in their relationship, and how much fun would it be to look at each other and wonder where our relationship is going based on where their relationship has gone?

 

In other words: we're totally going there. Not the two of them together, necessarily. The brooding and the angst and the random disposable possible other love interests for the shippers to beat up on social media? I'd be willing to bet. 

Edited October 4, 2015 by Julia

[Yolapukka]

The way Castle keeps coming up in reference to Abbie/Crane is interesting to me because I remember thinking at the end of season one of that show that they needed to cut their losses and bring in a replacement leading lady. Much as I otherwise appreciated Stana Katic, I thought she had absolutely nonexistent romantic chemistry with Nathan Fillion and given that the pairing seemed a large part of the backbone of that show, it was no small thing to overlook. That lack did improve somewhat, but not much, at least not for me. Clearly a lot of people not only saw something in them, but saw a lot of that something. I've always seen something between Abbie & Crane, even if it hasn't been as heavily underlined as the intent of the writing as it has been for Beckett & Castle or Booth & Bones. What I like best about it, is their chemistry is not just romantic, it is a dynamic thing that evolves according to their personal situations. The romantic chemistry was there as a subtext as they got to know each other in season one, but went into a bit of a fade by the midpoint as Crane pursued the possibility that Katrina could return to the mortal world. I've never once felt that either of them were pining for each other and I liked that. Crane had emotional ties to his witch wife and Abbie has more sense than to open herself to those sorts of complications. I think what the actors are putting into their parts comes into play, Mison has always portrayed Crane as being drawn to Abbie's company and rather awed by her, whereas he made it seem as though he loved Katrina, but did not always like or even trust her.  Nicole has made it appear like Abbie not only friend-zones Crane, but increasingly, pointedly, consciously does so, while having a great deal of fun with him outside of demon-slaying duty. I've always seen a lot of potential for romantic chemistry between them which the writing has not openly played with, but the actors at the same time portrayed them as people who regardless of romance, increasingly love each other. I think they have a better base than many TV pairings which begin and end with putting two pretty people next to each other, then adding sparring and some longing looks. I think they are a more credible, organic couple than many other pairings I've seen, with none of the contrivances necessary to make them fit into a preconceived path. 

[frenchtoast]

Just a quick heads up folks, please read the new announcement in the pinned Notes from the Mods topic. Thanks!

[Miss Dee]

Based on her eerily modern mannerisms and speech, and considering that it's not likely they'd make her so prominent if Betsy Ross is going to stay in Civil War-time America, I'd really prefer it if Abbie and Ichabod stumbled upon Betsy *before* she time traveled. Like she's this normal woman who gets tangled up with Team WTF, and the arc culminates with her getting magicked to Ichabod's time to help him there.

Wasn't there some kind of chatter about her being instrumental in making Ichabod a Witness? What if this is how she's supposed to do it? What if Ichabod is the one that sends her back?? That could be pretty cool!

[Yolapukka]

If Betsy is from the present day, I think it would be a hoot if all she knows about the history she is living is only the sketchiest idea of events because she didn't like the subject in school and gave it little attention. It would have to be revealed in a conversation with Ichabod, because his reaction would be gold.

[cynic]

Her actually being from present day would certainly make it easier to accept Reed's portrayal. If she knew Crane in his future that would also explain her forwardness and overfamiliarity with him too.

Maybe she's just assumed Betsy's identity and her real name is River Song.

Edited October 9, 2015 by cynic

[cynic]

I'm watching the pilot right now. I still want to know what the deal is with Father Chainslinger. Did we ever find out? There are some episodes here or there that I...um...may not have given my full attention to, even in the first season. There were some long living witches in the Golem episode, right? I could never get through that one. Was it addressed why they were kinda monster-like while the priest seemed totally normal and intergrated with the town? 

 

If he wasn't explained, I would love to see that more of his "sect" or whatever. Maybe there could be a group of church officials working to secretly fight the demonic. They could help shed light on our pair's mission as witnesses. I just really think the fight needs to be expanded beyond our tiny circle of friends and the increasingly unbelievable frequency that Crane remembers something useful from his past.

[Yolapukka]

See? Here is an actress being given clunky lines and awkward sing-y limerick-y monologue for half of her scenes and she makes it work while having fun. I don't think NR is not having  fun but it doesn't seem like she thought much about her character. I am now championing the sent back into Betsy Ross' body theory. She's a modern person who got astrally projected in that time and body. That is literally the only thing that explains this mess without suspecting that the writers, producers, fox execs and Nikki Reed have brain damage. Because who watches this and goes "wow, this is great!" and actually believes it? And there is no way Nikki is thinking that she is even remotely close to accurate portrayal of a colonial woman, spy or not. 

 

 

 

There are two things that will get me fan-wanking, one is something so delightful that it frequently pops up in my thoughts and the other is something that really doesn't work, so I play what-if in order to make sense of it or at least make it less dreadful, at least in my own mind. So far, Betsy is really not working, I think part of it is, the intent is humorous but that is falling flat in the writing and Nikki's awkward acting choices are not helping.

 

So my fanwank is we'll have a MOW that essentially puts ill-wishes into effect; if you wish someone into the corn they will go into the corn. Ichabod has an increasingly annoying conversation with a bartender who looks like his former partner, Betsy, she has no interest in the history Ichabod references and he gets persnickety and tells her he wishes she could experience the events she couldn't be bothered to learn. Blah-blah-blah conveniently wearing a corset, blah-blah marries a gay upholsterer patriot named Ross which enables her to have agency as an adventurer blah. 

 

And actually it is a bit like River Song because she and Ichabod encounter each other on different trajectories through time. There is no active romance, because Ichabod finds her to be an annoying nutbar in both timelines, though he does have the good grace to feel guilty over the successful ill-wishing.

 

But really I think it's just bad acting and writing that over-relies on visual bits of nonsensical business over anything well considered.

[ZoqFotPik]

 They have previously established that Betsy Ross and Crane had a relationship. "I, Witness" and "Whispers in the Dark" involved demons from Crane's past that he encountered with Betsy Ross. In "Blood and Fear" they make a point to state that Pandora has access to Crane's earliest memories and the Monster of the week was again something from his past. Although it will be similar to what they did with Henry/Jeremy/Death, I'm beginning to suspect that Betsy Ross and Pandora will turn out to be the same person.

[DearEvette]

I'm watching the pilot right now. I still want to know what the deal is with Father Chainslinger. Did we ever find out? There are some episodes here or there that I...um...may not have given my full attention to, even in the first season. There were some long living witches in the Golem episode, right? I could never get through that one. Was it addressed why they were kinda monster-like while the priest seemed totally normal and intergrated with the town? 

 

If he wasn't explained, I would love to see that more of his "sect" or whatever. Maybe there could be a group of church officials working to secretly fight the demonic. They could help shed light on our pair's mission as witnesses. I just really think the fight needs to be expanded beyond our tiny circle of friends and the increasingly unbelievable frequency that Crane remembers something useful from his past.

 

He was a Warlock? in Katrina's coven who knew about Ichabod's importance as a Witness and helped her put Ichabod in stasis.  As much I loved Tempus Fugit (the S2 finale) I do think him not being there was a major oversight.

 

I know it feels convenient that Crane always remembers something relevant from his past, but it seems pretty clear that Abbie & Ichabod's role as Witnesses is something that has been pre-ordained (and S3 is heavily implying they have been Witnesses it for milennia).  Also every supernatural being knows they The Witnesses.  So it stands to reason that every part of their life has some relevancy on their fight.  According to the Bible, one of the powers of the Witnesses is prophecy.  So it could be that Ichabod's remembrances really are somewhat prophetic.

 

Of course I could be giving the writers too much credit.  It seems the original concept really meant to explore what it meant to be Witnesses as it related to end of days, but that seems to have gotten lost in all the Katrina/Henry madness.  I wonder if this crew has given it some more thought and are using it again?

 

One thing  read recently is that depending on the denomination of church in question, the two witnesses have a lot of different interpretations.  Interestingly, early Greek texts where a line says "they share one body, one breath" or something like that leads some modern scholars to interpret that the Witnesses were a husband and wife team mainly because other places in scripture marriage is said to unite man & women into 'one flesh'.  I only mention the Greek because of the Pandora connection this season.  But if the writers did research on what it means to be a Witness they could have stumbled across this interpretation and might be playing with that which might lead to an actual Ic & Abbie union.

 

Some food for thought.

[fantique]

Hey, seeing as SH is on its last breath (and FOX is kindly -sarcasm- switching off breath support), anyone have a bucket list?

[Yolapukka]

My hat is thrown in the ring for Tony Todd, Michael Dorn or Avery Brooks. I think Dorn is the frontrunner for me; for a guy whose biggest role is a Klingon, he has such a gentle manner about him for such an imposing size. I love the idea of him being the Elder Guide figure on this "quest", maybe someone who's devoted his life to studying this stuff and that plants into why he suddenly abandoned the family. And that way we'd have another plausible window into past events without Colonial! Crane having to encounter it previously with Betsy every single time they meet a monster.

 

The Michael Dorn suggestion made me go YESSSSS!!!!!!!  I loved him as Worf, he did a lot to flesh out the character of a guy with a stick up his bum and a turtle glued to his head. Tony Todd is a close second. Whoever plays him, I think the character needs ambiguity. I think Papa Mills will probably come off as a sketchy, morally gray character. We shouldn't know what to think of him or trust, even if he's basically just a suburban 9-5er with a quiet life. No matter how they try to frame it, he's also a dad that has a family he abandoned.  Whatever the reasons we are given for that, I hope it's not at the expense of Mama Mills. I kind of hate it when a show introduces a character with his sort of backstory and it's either "Bygones!" or constant overwrought sniping. I hope they have a story for him, not just family dramatics.

[Commando Cody]

I had to look up Tony Todd. He looked familiar. I read his IMDB page. He has made appearances in pretty much every series I've watched. Most recently, I found 'Chuck' on Netflix.

I had no idea he was Kurn on Star Trek. He certainly has a had a background in horror/supernatural/Sci-Fi type shows. 

 

I loved the character of Worf as well. I am always happy to see Michael Dorn show up on something I'm watching. The last time I saw him on anything I watch, was when he was a guest on Castle for a couple of episodes. 

[HalcyonDays]

My hat is thrown in the ring for Tony Todd, Michael Dorn or Avery Brooks.

 

I love how each of these three actors have appeared on ST: Deep Space Nine. I will say that the voice of Dorn is so distinctive, it may take me out of the scene. Now that you mentioned Castle, yeah I remember seeing him as the shrink, and it was a bit strange. I vote Avery Brooks.

[fantique]

I thought it was more interesting in earlier seasons when they chose different historical figures for Ichabod to interact with, rather than just Betsy. They didn't need her for the Paul Revere scene. Plus they gave Betsy relatives which made no sense all. Did her brother or sister time travel with her. Additionally, since she got them into this mess, is that why she has to watch the kids? I agree with the final scene with Betsy was just Ichabod being loopy. I was kind of surprised as well with the kissing out in the open, With the modern speech and the kissing, nothing about that scene seemed right.

Shit...I guess that kills the time travel theory. Or not? Because if she was sent into the "real" Betsy Ross' body, then it makes sense she would have relatives.

 

Found this on the tumblr (http://the-head-and-the-kin.tumblr.com/post/131833297728/so-the-betsy-ross-paradoxes-1-how-do-the-writers)

 

 

7) Pandora is using Crane’s reliance on his eidetic memory to fuck with him from the present, so none of the scenes with Betsy are real memories–they’re planted or altered–either to force the Witnesses to work together, or for some larger purpose; they don’t fit the timeline or previous info about Betsy Ross because they’re new

The odds are so, so, so slim, but I think (7) would be great. It would be a huge reveal, and messing with the truth of the entire structure of Crane’s flashbacks would be a fresh take on them. Plus, underlining the fact he’s totally an unreliable narrator would be delightful.

Literally retconning Crane’s past? It would also be a truly cruel, freaky thing to do, possibly one of the cruelest things Pandora could do to Crane. It would make her (or potentially a bigger bad, who might be working against Pandora) a terrifying, formidable foe. Because messing with memories means messing with identity–and oh my god, if this stupid show plunged into the philosophical deep-end like that, I would literally cry.

(And if the writers actually did something this interesting with their contractually necessitated boobsy white lady, I would be really pretty impressed.)

Follow up answer by another blogger

#7 would also dovetail really nicely with the theme of “preservation” associated with Crane this season, e.g. “… but not at the expense of my colonial soul.”

I mean, they are really doubling-down on Crane’s attachment to preserving history and getting it “right” (Colonial Times, the Archives, even the citizenship test) … what if that weren’t just the typical Crane-flouncing, but something actually really important?

This is clearly something I think should happen but don't think ever will.

I know I am hurting myself but this is what a nerd does. We create 10000000000000x more elaborate schemes than writers. One thing this season is doing really well is that they are cultivating a lot of speculation even though they are low on the mythology front. A genre show should always keep the watchers guessing and speculating.

[Yolapukka]

 

Shit...I guess that kills the time travel theory. Or not? Because if she was sent into the "real" Betsy Ross' body, then it makes sense she would have relatives.

 

 

The real Betsy Ross was estranged from her family after she married her first husband, the absent and unmentioned Mr. Ross. Maybe the niece or nephew could be a relative on his side? If they go the time travel route, which I'm not convinced they will, the estrangement would have been a handy way of explaining away her lack of connection to family.

 

Also the body theory is a possible route, That's similar to what happened to she-who-must-not-be-named, she landed in her own past self.

Edited October 28, 2015 by yuggapukka

[phoenics]

Shit...I guess that kills the time travel theory. Or not? Because if she was sent into the "real" Betsy Ross' body, then it makes sense she would have relatives.

Found this on the tumblr (http://the-head-and-the-kin.tumblr.com/post/131833297728/so-the-betsy-ross-paradoxes-1-how-do-the-writers)

This is clearly something I think should happen but don't think ever will.

I know I am hurting myself but this is what a nerd does. We create 10000000000000x more elaborate schemes than writers. One thing this season is doing really well is that they are cultivating a lot of speculation even though they are low on the mythology front. A genre show should always keep the watchers guessing and speculating.

I love that we are speculating again but I am still not sure the writers are that deep. I want them to be tho.

[fantique]

I love that we are speculating again but I am still not sure the writers are that deep. I want them to be tho.

Oh I am not crazy enough to think they are but at least my imagination has a fun and nice jumping off point. The fact that they can disappoint me means I have expectations instead of just being exasperated and shocked by their stupidity.

Edited October 29, 2015 by fantique