The Starling City Times: News and Media about Arrow

[wonderwall]

This is a couple weeks old but I haven't seen it posted here. I think the author is the same guy from TV Fanatic. It was very interesting reading the comments supporting the article. 

 

Why Laurel Lance Shouldn't Be In The Grave

 

This is the best pro-LL article I've ever seen and doesn't even use comics to justify why she shouldn't be in the grave. I admit it really was an interesting read...

 

Thaddeus Jones' response was A+ for me though

 

And while the viewers have always been told that Laurel Lance is always saving the world, Oliver himself dismissed this reasoning — telling the audience that her heroics, her vigilantism, are nothing more than a different version of her addiction. She is still chasing a high. And Laurel did not correct him. She’s supposed to be doing this to honor her sister, but since the show didn’t fully develop the relationship between the two in season 2, choosing instead to rekindle a sexual relationship between Oliver and Sara, the sisterly bond needed to sell this devotion to her sister fell flat.

You mentioned that Laurel made mistakes and it’s how she owned up to them that sets her apart. Again, I think the show has failed the character here, instead showing Laurel as someone who is not above manipulating people to get her job back. A job she lost because she was an alcoholic and and addict. She brings her sister back from the grave, despite warnings from everybody, chains her in the basement in the clothes the poor woman was buried in. Not only that, she hides her sister’s escape from her father, even after said soulless sister has killed people and endangered many. So what if the people slain were possible criminals, eh? I guess that shouldn’t matter to a D.A. She tortures a man in sick bed for information just because he happened to have been in the same site as a suspect in her sister’s murder. Willing to shoot him dead (fortunately Oliver took out the bullets) without due process. That wouldn’t have been a problem, if it weren’t for the fact she was a prosecutor and supposed to stand up for the law. Did she own up to any of these mistakes? Absolutely not, hence diminishing her moral role. So even in her supposed capacity as the bringer of justice, Laurel Lance was again failed by Arrow.

Edited March 16, 2016 by wonderwall

[SmallScreenDiva]

This is the best pro-LL article I've ever seen and doesn't even use comics to justify why she shouldn't be in the grave. I admit it really was an interesting read...

 

Thaddeus Jones' response was A+ for me though

 

What I found very interesting reading those comments is that except for 1, almost everybody appeared to be male (from their usernames). I don't think I've ever seen a comment section so skewed toward 1 gender.

 

I think the commenter mixed up Komodo and his victim, though. I don't think LL tried to shoot the guy in the hospital, did she?

Edited March 16, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[lemotomato]

This is the best pro-LL article I've ever seen and doesn't even use comics to justify why she shouldn't be in the grave. I admit it really was an interesting read...

He does a better job than usual talking about how Laurel is a fully developed character without relying on comics, but at the end, his conclusion about why she shouldn't be in the grave is still:

Dinah Laurel Lance is such an important character in the Green Arrow’s comic journey and in the television show’s journey, as well.

He provided no in-show proof about how she's still relevant to Oliver's journey, and then throws in a "where's that photo from season 1?" aside. Which to me, amounts to the same "But but but Oliver/Laurel in season 1!! They promised us!!!" kind of logic still used to argue about why O/L should happen.

[wonderwall]

What I found very interesting reading those comments is that except for 1, almost everybody appeared to be male (from their usernames). I don't think I've ever seen a comment section so skewed toward 1 gender.

 

I think the commenter mixed up Komodo and his victim, though. I don't think LL tried to shoot the guy in the hospital, did she?

 

Laurel did 2 questionable things in that episode, she essentially tortured an innocent man in the hospital to get the whereabouts of the Komodo and she tried to kill the Komodo. I think the 'him' he was referring to was the Komodo. The argument still stands though. She's not the judge, jury, and executioner, she's a prosecutor and should stand up for the law, something of which she didn't stand up for in that episode. 

[wonderwall]

He does a better job than usual talking about how Laurel is a fully developed character without relying on comics, but at the end, his conclusion about why she shouldn't be in the grave is still:

He provided no in-show proof about how she's still relevant to Oliver's journey, and then throws in a "where's that photo from season 1?" aside. Which to me, amounts to the same "But but but Oliver/Laurel in season 1!! They promised us!!!" kind of logic still used to argue about why O/L should happen.

 

OH how did I miss that?! To be fair, a lot of his arguments don't really hold up, for example Laurel challenging the team... She hasn't really challenged the team, she's mostly been ignored by the team. She doesn't have a moral role on the team. She has never been held accountable for her actions (thus teflon Laurel lives) etc.

 

I just admire that this guy finally puts up an argument that doesn't fall SOLELY on comics. He thinks that Laurel has come a long way since season 1 and should be given the right to continue to grow as a character. He by no means provides any reason why she's relevant, because there aren't any reasons, but he goes a different route by arguing she's becoming a strong enough of a character to hold her own in Arrow... At least that's what I got from it. Maybe as long as she's part of Team Arrow, she's connected enough?

 

Reading this article, it just shows me how amazing Laurel could've been if the writers didn't botch her up. I like the character the guy is trying to show me, but what muddles that up is what I've seen on screen...

[Sakura12]

I know people like to blame the writing but for me it's the actors job to bring the character to life. KC hasn't been able to do that. Laurel has been through a lot but the way KC has been portraying her, I just didn't care. I saw someone that was cold and hard, someone unapproachable. No matter what Laurel was doing that's how KC played her. With her arms crossed and not reacting or interacting with anyone when the focus wasn't on her. She brought no warmth to the character, no vulnerability to make me care. 

 

For me KC was just miscast for the part. I think another actress could've done something different with the character. 

 

Now the Laurel/Oliver fiasco (besides the lack of chemistry) I will blame the writers. Who's bright idea was it to have Oliver cheat on Laurel with her sister? Even if they cast an actress that had chemistry with Amell that was a terrible base for a relationship. A friend, while still a bad choice might've worked a little better over her younger sister. 

[wonderwall]

Where the writers failed:

• Laurel/Oliver and everything about it from Oliver cheating on LL with Sara, everything to do with Tommy, the stupid love triangle
• Being hostile towards Sara by throwing glass at her (because I'm sure that was scripted)
• Blackmailing the DA so she could get her job back
• Never listening to anyone ever (like going back to CNRI to save the files as well as bringing Sara back)
• Torturing that guy in the hospital to catch Komodo
• Almost killing Komodo if that gun had been loaded
• Lying ALL. THE. TIME
• Pretty much using Thea and her connection to Malcolm to resurrect Sara
• Chaining Sara up like an animal 
• Not telling anyone Sara escaped whilst being soulless

 

All this was done while the writers/KC have been telling us that LL is a moral and just person and the disconnect is part of the reason why the writers failed. 

 

Where KC failed:

• Not giving Laurel any nuance in S1 and it only made her just look like an angry character
• Being unapproachable by crossing her arms a lot
• Never exuding any warmth in her character
• The coldness is partially what makes me feel like she doesn't belong in the team. She feels like an outsider. 
• Very uncoordinated (which is what makes the stunts kind of lacking but it has nothing to do with KC and more to do with miscasting)

 

[Disclaimer: This is all in my opinion, of course]

Edited March 16, 2016 by wonderwall

[Sakura12]

The writing has made Laurel do stupid things, but the writing makes Oliver do stupid thing all the time and people still like him. And it's not just because he's the lead. Most of the time I barely like the lead of the shows I watch. It's what the actor can do to add nuance the character while they are doing stupid things that makes the difference. 

[lemotomato]

Now the Laurel/Oliver fiasco (besides the lack of chemistry) I will blame the writers. Who's bright idea was it to have Oliver cheat on Laurel with her sister? Even if they cast an actress that had chemistry with Amell that was a terrible base for a relationship. A friend, while still a bad choice might've worked a little better over her younger sister. 

No amount of Oliver staring at Laurel's picture and pining in season 1 could ever make up for the fact that he cheated on her with her sister. I find it interesting in the comments to the article that one of the pro-L/O comments (by a man, naturally) said that their problems were not insurmountable. He cheated on her with her sister. I just... can't understand how that's something anyone can "get over". Is it one of those men vs women kind of thing? Were there no women in the writers' room that pointed out it wasn't a good idea to introduce the show's epic romance with that as the main conflict? 

[dtissagirl]

There was no writers room when Berlanti/Kreisberg/Guggenheim came up with the premise and wrote the pilot, so: nope, no female writer to object. And I like to delude myself that Guggie hid the pilot script from his wife.

I've always thought there was a gender divide on the sister swapping issue. Mostly because it's such a common place male fantasy trope, the playboy who nailed a set of sisters.

But what was also striking was -- on top of it being gross, they made the whole thing the opposite of entertaining. There was absolutely nothing about the L/O set up that screamed "oooh, this is gonna be so much fun to watch, I can't wait". It was awkward and excruciatingly painful to watch. And if you wanna start your romance arc from the pits of gross behavior, THE LEAST you have to give me is a really good time as a viewer.

[SmallScreenDiva]

There was no writers room when Berlanti/Kreisberg/Guggenheim came up with the premise and wrote the pilot, so: nope, no female writer to object. And I like to delude myself that Guggie hid the pilot script from his wife.

 

I also like to delude myself that Guggie hid the recent baby mama drama plot from his wife, as well as his response on Tumblr defending Oliver for lying about his kid to Felicity. 

 

The sister-swapping detail is another one of those questions I'd really love for the Arrow TPTB to answer down the road (or maybe in the next con they participate in). 

Edited March 16, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[Ann Mack]

I don't know why some writers think its a good idea to have a sibling swapping story line ever? Between Oliver sleeping with both Sarah and Laurel to Diggle possibly  (pretty sure he did) sleeping with Carly who was Andy's wife/widow. Wonder what those conversations were like in the writers room. There is also "The Vampire Diaries" with Elena first while a human sleeping with Stefan and upon turning into a vampire sleeping with Damon. Ah yes there is also although only once on "The Originals" with Klaus sleeping with an impregnating Haley and then Haley turning around and sleeping with his brother Elijah. Must be some sort of phase that some of these writers go through. I don't know why anyone would think its a good idea for any siblings to want to dirty the sheets with someone her sister or his brother had previously slept with. On the c'mon how gross can you be scuzball scale that ranks pretty high IMO.

 

I wonder if Sara slept with Oliver out of spite, jealousy, adventure and stupidity.  I mean she did want Oliver first but wanting and having are two very different things and she was old enough and had no mental challenges that would have kept her from knowing the difference.

 

Laurel I think really did love Oliver. Her biggest problem IMO was she never stood up to Oliver for fear of losing him which allowed him to know he could do whatever he wanted and she would always take him back.

 

Diggle I don't know maybe he thought as the older brother he should be taking care of his brother's widow and his nephew and it eventually started out as caring moved into romance, and then he was bought back to reality when he realized he was still wanting revenge more than love. Maybe I'm just talking out my ass here to and really have no idea why they tried that story line lol.

 

Not even going to try to get inside the mind of Julie Plec and Caroline Dries on those other 2 shows!

[BkWurm1]

I wonder if Sara slept with Oliver out of spite, jealousy, adventure and stupidity.  I mean she did want Oliver first but wanting and having are two very different things and she was old enough and had no mental challenges that would have kept her from knowing the difference.

 

When Sara ran off with Oliver, she thought she was in love with Ollie and that was the whole reason her mom let her go.  How mature that love was, that I think is in question but I do absolutely think Oliver meant more to her than just a prize to take from her sister.  I got more a "Laurel doesn't really understand him" vibe from Sara as she ran off to be with Oliver than her trying to outright hurt Laurel.  She was still telling herself (and letting Ollie tell her) that Laurel would never find out. 

 

She'd also, it seem, had been with Oliver before she ran off with him, that was the impression I got, so again, she seemed to feel like she had a more realistic view of who Oliver was at that time.  Or maybe they'd only been doing the flirty texting and Sara thought that if she could have Oliver to herself for two weeks he'd see she was the better fit 

 

 

Laurel I think really did love Oliver. Her biggest problem IMO was she never stood up to Oliver for fear of losing him which allowed him to know he could do whatever he wanted and she would always take him back

 

I agree and disagree.  She I think had a real love as did Oliver on a human being level.  They seemed to have kind of grown up together.  They genuinely didn't want harm to come to the other and cared to a degree, but the Oliver Laurel was really in love with only seemed to exist in her mind.  He was the guy he was going to be or the one she was determined to stick her head in the sand over.  I really don't know which.   And Oliver was willing to pretend for Laurel but his actions proved how disingenuous he was.  I honestly think Laurel was deemed "suitable" at some point in his life and he just figured they'd end up one day together but being with her didn't seem to have any other impact on his life. 

 

I have a hard time seeing Laurel as too afraid to confront Oliver for fear of losing him.  When Sara brought up those ten girls, she wasn't acting hurt over their existence but annoyed that Sara would try to use them to mess with her plan. 

 

Oh and incidentally, recently a different interpretation of those ten girls was given to me.  I was told that Oliver hadn't cheated on Laurel with 10 girls, he merely had dated 10 girls before Laurel.  Thus making BM the first one she really knew about besides Sara and thus why Laurel was so emotional about it. 

[Sakura12]

The way I saw it Laurel was talking about how she was going to move in with Oliver and marry him and Sara was telling Laurel that Oliver had cheated on her with 10 girls that she was just ignoring. Ollie was not ready to settle down yet, Laurel was the only one not realizing that or ignoring it so she could live in her fantasy world. 

 

I do think Sara understood Oliver better than Laurel. She knew exactly what type of guy he was and still liked him. Then after they both came back from the dead, they understood each other even more. SA and CL played it, in a way that showed that Oliver and Sara have a bond that goes beyond friendship but wasn't romantic. Even old man Oliver and Sara had that. KC and SA were not able to portray any kind of chemistry at all. That is why they stopped following the comics. And didn't seem to care to go back to it after Season 1.

 

To me it really seems like after season 1 they rewrote their entire premise. Oliver was slowly moving towards Felicity, Sara was brought on as Black Canary that would fight side by side with Green Arrow, Team Arrow became more of a team and Laurel was pushed to background. Then they got the hate mail from the Because Comics fans and decided that Laurel needed to be Black Canary, so they killed Sara to make that happen without thinking about the consequences or an actual storyline to make Laurel BC.  She still pretty much does nothing and is just there. While they didn't need to kill her, she isn't necessary for the story and she hasn't been for a long while. 

[statsgirl]

replying in the Heartaches thread

[ComicFan777]

Oh and incidentally, recently a different interpretation of those ten girls was given to me.  I was told that Oliver hadn't cheated on Laurel with 10 girls, he merely had dated 10 girls before Laurel.  Thus making BM the first one she really knew about besides Sara and thus why Laurel was so emotional about it. 

 

I think Laurel was very emotional about it because 1) Samantha was her old friend and 2) William is a physical representation of Oliver's cheating.  She knew he cheated on her countless times, but they were faceless women and it didn't become real until Sara ran off with him and "died" and now, Samantha's right in front of her apologizing for her stupidity.  I think it was probably easy for her to brush everything off as rumors and not take it seriously- really she was just trying to mentally protect herself by pretending none of the cheating was real until it was blatently obvious.

 

Seeing how easily Oliver lied to Felicity about his trips to Central City and the boob cuddle really made me see a different facet of Oliver - how eerily similar to the Oliver/Laurel in the past - I could see why it might have been easy for Laurel to delude herself that Ollie wasn't what others said or for Felicity to not to question his travels.  But with William, everything became quite real...he is living evidence of what a douche Ollie was...it was a real slap in the face, really.

[tv echo]

This is interesting...

 

More Than A Show: The Secret To TV Franchise Success
Posted By: GossipandGab.com  on: March 15, 2016
http://gossipandgab.com/100147/more-than-a-show-the-secret-to-tv-franchise-success

What do Arrow, Sons of Anarchy and Game of Thrones all have in common? Well, aside from being smash hit TV shows, they are all franchises worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Big budget spectacles like Game of Thrones aren’t just TV shows; they are multimedia franchises. From games and spin-offs to clothing lines, HBO has perfected the art of turning a hit show into a money-making machine.
*  *  *
Of course, it’s not just the iGaming demographic that TV networks are using to boost the profile of their shows. Take, for example, Arrow. The Superhero show first aired in 2012 and since then it’s been praised for breaking the TV mold that almost broke the genre. Again, however, while the quality of the storylines and quality of the CGI is great, it’s the supplementary parts of the franchise that have helped it to thrive.
 

You can find Arrow in a variety of computer games and, importantly, TV shows. Thanks to its comic roots, Arrow has appeared alongside the likes of Batman and Superman, appearances which have only helped to boost the show’s overall visibility and appeal.
*  *  *
Today’s major TV shows are about much more than what’s on the screen. Creating a fan base and infiltrating new markets is about crossing entertainment borders and that’s what the likes of Arrow, Game of Thrones and Sons of Anarchy have done. Through online slots, cameos and books, the producers have been able to leverage their assets to create multimedia monsters that the whole world knows and loves.

 

The above article linked to this 2014 article:

Arrow Has Given DC Comics the Best On-Screen Superhero Franchise
Eric Dodds @doddsef  April 10, 2014
http://time.com/56472/arrow-dc-comics-best-superhero-franchise/

Edited March 16, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This writer thinks Arrow should, among other things, give Oliver a personal life, darken the tone, don't kill Laurel (no spoilers, just spec), and end Olicity for good - usually I quote excerpts that I like, but this time I'm quoting excerpts that either befuddle me with their illogic or make my blood boil with anger...

 

Arrow: 9 Ways They Can Still Save Season 4
Connor Briggs-Morris  17 Mar 2016
http://whatculture.com/tv/arrow-9-ways-they-can-still-save-season-4.php

Whatever happened to Oliver Queen the socialite or Oliver Queen the businessman? Did he stop caring about those things and we were just never told? It feels like slowly, over time, he’s losing the different aspects of his personality as opposed to gaining them and growing. The result of this has made the character seem less fully-formed and compelling than ever. Almost all of his time is either spent in costume or dealing with his relationship with Felicity. ... An easy fix would be to have him reassume control of his former company at the end of the season....
*  *  *
Oftentimes, it’s been easy to forget that this was a CW show because of how mature the content felt. Lately, it’s become a lot clearer that the audience they’re more interested in capturing is made up of teenage girls. That would be perfectly fine if the lighter, more relationship-focused show was still good. The problem is that it’s not and the lack of action, focus on the villain, and darker themes have all left the show much more vapid than before.
*  *  *
We’re talking about the Black Canary here, one of the most important characters in Green Arrow lore and to lose her without ever fully developing her character would be an outright travesty. She doesn’t need to become Oliver’s new lover or anything, but she can’t get pushed out of the picture in this way either.
*  *  *
Back in Seasons 1 and 2, Felicity was a great character, she was the quirky sidekick and a nice counterbalance to Oliver and Diggle’s seriousness. But since then, she’s been thrust into one of the most prominent roles in the show and it hasn’t gone well. Her consistently irrational behaviour and lack of character development has gone too far and her petty relationship drama with Oliver is dragging everything down. ... The show has simply placed too much focus on their relationship and while that may please some viewers, it has resulted in less time for characters like Diggle and Laurel, and has caused the plot to revolve around Oliver’s ability to keep his relationship afloat as opposed to him saving his city. By freeing Oliver from such a distraction, it could liberate both him and the show to proceed in a strong new direction.

Edited March 17, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

it’s become a lot clearer that the audience they’re more interested in capturing is made up of teenage girls.

 

Aww, my target demo! Finally catered by a Hollywood production banked by a couple of billionaire conglomerates. FINALLY! Thanks Arrow for breaking all the barriers and being so ahead of its time. My teenage fangirl heart appreciates it so hard.

Edited March 17, 2016 by dtissagirl

[bijoux]

This writer thinks Arrow should, among other things, give Oliver a personal life, darken the tone, don't kill Laurel (no spoilers, just spec), and end Olicity for good - usually I quote excerpts that I like, but this time I'm quoting excerpts that either befuddle me with their illogic or make my blood boil with anger...

 

Arrow: 9 Ways They Can Still Save Season 4

Connor Briggs-Morris  17 Mar 2016

http://whatculture.com/tv/arrow-9-ways-they-can-still-save-season-4.php

 

He loses me straight off the bat since Oliver never cared for being a socialite or a businessman. And that was always shown on screen. They were fronts for the Hood and the Arrow, with his CEO role having the added bonus of trying to preserve his family legacy somewhat. But he very obiously was not attached to those roles. 

[Angel12d]

it has resulted in less time for characters like Diggle and Laurel

 

 

Why don't they just say Laurel and be done with it? LOL. Why is Diggle always bought in to support the argument where Laurel is concerned? Instead it just looks transparent. They didn't care about him when he was getting sidelined in s2 and left behind in the foundry while Laurel went out in the field in s3. Hmm. Yep.

 

And don't get me started on his comments about Felicity. It seems like they were more than happy for her to be stuck in the same role as quirky IT girl and have no character development. Again, transparent. 

 

Edit: Looks like anyone can compose an article and get paid on that website so the guy is just another fan writing what he wants. Fair enough. Maybe I should do that. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Angel12d

[looptab]

These people must have missed the mayoral campaign. Also, I love how one minute they say that Laurel is a fully developed character and Felicity an underveloped one, and the next to prove their point they completely flip their statement. Logic, it's not for everyone.

 

BTW, why does s4 need to be saved? The only problem I have had with it is the BMD.

Edited March 17, 2016 by looptab

[tv echo]

What got me right away was this guy saying that Oliver needs a personal life and then saying that too much time was spent on Oliver's relationship with Felicity - apparently he doesn't consider Oliver's romantic relationship part of Oliver's personal life.

Edited March 17, 2016 by tv echo

[Angel12d]

I think s4 has its problems. The main one was the baby mama crap which set Oliver back a few steps. The stunts are pretty poor tbh. Oliver doesn't have much focus out in the field when he should. And they still don't know how to balance the relationships between all of the characters. But I don't think the season needs to be saved. Season 3, however, was a different story. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by Angel12d

[looptab]

I could be wrong, but I think I read those exact same points in a reddit comment when I ventured there for a peek after the writers debacle. This guy might be the very same person who invited Sokolowski to go look there.

I think s4 has its problems. The main one was the baby mama crap which set Oliver back a few steps. The stunts are pretty poor tbh. Oliver doesn't have much focus out in the field when he should. And they still don't know how to balance the relationships between all of the characters. But I don't think the season needs to be saved. Season 3, however, was a different story. 

Oh, yes, I agree with all those. I meant, storyline-wise, the BMD was the major offender. I don't think the season needs to be saved.

Edited March 17, 2016 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

He gets forever bonus points for saying Felicity's had "consistently irrational behavior" in a season when someone decides to dig up a grave and smuggle a corpse out of the country, and someone else decides to hide a surprise kid for reasons.

[Angel12d]

I could be wrong, but I think those exact same points in a reddit comment when I ventured there for a peek after the writers debacle. This guy might be the very same person who invited Sokolowski to go look there.

 

I, for one, am SHOCKED by this. Truly shocked.

[looptab]

Hey, everyone digs up corpses every now and then. Nothing strange about that. ;)

[bijoux]

I think s4 has its problems. The main one was the baby mama crap which set Oliver back a few steps. The stunts are pretty poor tbh. Oliver doesn't have much focus out in the field when he should. And they still don't know how to balance the relationships between all of the characters. But I don't think the season needs to be saved. Season 3, however, was a different story.

It's this and mismanagement of Darhk that are the weakest spots. They planted him and then didn't really know how to utilize him. That in turn hinders Oliver and the team, so the crime fighting aspect has pretty much been at a standstill so far. The BDM, while eyeroll inducing and apparently pointless seeing as it hung there for a few episodes and then fizzled out, is much less detrimental overall in my opinion.

[looptab]

It's this and mismanagement of Darhk that are the weakest spots. They planted him and then didn't really know how to utilize him. That in turn hinders Oliver and the team, so the crime fighting aspect has pretty much been at a standstill so far. The BDM, while eyeroll inducing and apparently pointless seeing as it hung there for a few episodes and then fizzled out, is much less detrimental overall in my opinion.

I think that depends from which angle you watch it. You make valid points and ITA, but the fact that they seem to have been mendearing with Darhk it's somehow expected, to me. The BMD instead was much more offending in terms of sheer stupidity :)

[tarotx]

Season 4's main problem for me has been the focus on one main villain. I have that issue with LOT as well. In concept I'm fine with it but it gets repetitive. There has been issues with the fights beyond that like Oliver being a lot weaker this season because they need to have 4 equals out there. I'm OK with the BMD. I mean it's stupid but it has been 2 episodes and I will always skip 4.8 forever but 4.15 was ok. Felicity left Oliver and now we have the fall out but now that the lying and secret keeping has consequence I'll be able to deal. Especially because Oliver seems to be staying present in the drama even with Felicity doing what is best for herself and for Oliver's growth.

Edited March 17, 2016 by tarotx

[tv echo]

Someone's hoping for a Quentin flashback...

 

The cast of ‘Arrow’ needs to go to Fresno to solve THIS mystery
By Donna Dickens  @MildlyAmused | Wednesday, Mar 16, 2016 4:39 PM
http://www.hitfix.com/harpy/the-cast-of-arrow-needs-to-go-to-fresno-to-solve-this-mystery

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

There's a part of this kind of criticism of the show that is actually related to the conversation about the show. Felicity and Oliver/Felicity make up the highest percentage of the content produced about the show online -- both in fandom and in pro media.

 

And I see a lot of resentment for that. That the conversation about the show is primarily about romance, instead of action-adventure-stunts-comics-TESTOSTERONE! So pleading the show to stop writing romantic beats, and character development that's linked to relationships is the way to silence the teenage fangirls from talking about romance on Arrow non-stop 24/7 ad nauseam in every single social media platform and fan board and EVERYWHERE.

 

And that *stinks* for dudebros who think superhero properties belong to THEM, and not to the teenage fangirls.

Edited March 17, 2016 by dtissagirl

[tarotx]

Quite a few of the Dude bros talk more about romance than anything-Dinah and Ollie need to interact, flirt and be each other's go too superhero. Stay true to the comics. I just have no idea why they want to label those who like another couple, teen age girls. Then again I'm probably judgey because I have issues of my own with them since I was called an ignorant B!tch (not for my poor spelling, grammar and writing style. Which I'm like-mmmm that's fair) because I called Sara a Black Canary influenced character if not the arrow version of the first Black Canary. Sara's not Dinah Lance so can't be Black Canary. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by tarotx

[AyChihuahua]

Anyone, and I mean literally ANYONE, who says she didn't have the right to know he has a kid is a moron. And also a liar and a misogynist, bc you know damn well if she'd hidden a kid from him they'd be calling her all kinds of horrible names.

 

I enjoy the whole "Oliver should reassert control over his family company" part. Bc sure, that's how it works. After you lose your company and all your money, just "reassert control." Walk into the boardroom and tell the board members "I'm reasserting control." They'll be all "Okay, cool beans!"

 

SO DUMB.

Edited March 17, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[apinknightmare]

Whatever happened to Oliver Queen the socialite or Oliver Queen the businessman? Did he stop caring about those things and we were just never told?

Nah, dude. We were told. First when he said that he didn't make time for his family's company when he had it and that it would be selfish to try and get it back, and second when Felicity (yes, jokingly) offered it back to him and he made it clear he didn't want it. Although maybe you blocked it out because both of these scenes were with Felicity.

[Sakura12]

Sara is the Black Canary in everything but her name. I've even seen some comic dudebros that would rather Sara be the Black Canary because she has much more in common with comics BC. It only seems to be the stuck on the name people that really have a problem with it. 

[tv echo]

This article is partly about MG's writing the AoS comics, but also includes some Arrow questions (I've quoted part but not all of them)...

 

INTERVIEW: Marc Guggenheim talks Representation in DC’s ARROW and the Marvel Universe Pleasant Hill Conspiracy
03/17/2016 BY ALEXANDER JONES
http://www.comicsbeat.com/interview-marc-guggenheim-talks-representation-in-dcs-arrow-and-the-marvel-universe-pleasant-hill-conspiracy/

Unlike the eponymous NBC TV show, Marvel’s new Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. comic isn’t bound by budgets, cameos or contracts.  Series writer and Arrow executive producer Marc Guggenheim is using that freedom to tell an expansive, grandiose story that seeks to transform the way you experience the Marvel Universe. Following a recent editorial, Comics Beat reporter Alexander Jones recently had the opportunity to sit down with Guggenheim and discuss the controversial choices he’s made on Arrow and how his method of world-building influences the choices he makes as he plots characters’ journeys in S.H.I.E.L.D..
*  *  *
Jones: To switch gears, let’s talk about Arrow for a bit.  In particular, I wanted to touch on Felicity, as she’s become something of a poster child for the way women are treated on Arrow.
Guggenheim: Absolutely!  The idea to injure her in the middle of the year goes back to something we said in the beginning of season two: when you go through a crucible it makes you stronger.  I think, hopefully, people are watching the show more for the evolution than the regression that came with earlier seasons.
 

Jones: Do you think the back end of Arrow season four has achieved the brighter tone teased earlier this year?
Guggenheim: You know, that’s a great question. It’s hard for me to say that a season that began with a grave and a mystery surrounding the identity of the body buried in it is significantly lighter than previous seasons of Arrow. However, one thing that we tried very hard to do this year is avoid the trope that we fell into in season three, where there was darkness but the way that the characters were responding to the darkness was also very dark.
 

I will give you an example and be very specific.  If we had crippled Felicity in season three instead of this season, Felicity would have been crying and moping a lot.  The aftermath would also be very dark. I don’t know if people have noticed, but the way that characters respond to darkness is different now. Bad things happen on this show — this is Arrow — but when bad things happen to our heroes, nowadays they respond in a much more positive way than they ever did in the past.
 

I also think our episodes this year have been some of the funniest we ever had. 4×07 was one of our funnier episodes.  

We’re actually editing 4×17 right now, which is bar none the funniest episode we’ve ever done in the show.

We’ve always been honest with everyone. At the beginning of the year we talked about the lighter tone, but we always said: the show is never going to be The Flash. The Flash has its own tone in our little Arrowverse. Flash is Superman and Arrow is Batman. The biggest change we’ve made is that instead of responding to that darkness with more darkness in Arrow,  we’re responding with some more hopeful lightness. At the flash forward at the grave, we’ve been very intentional in having Oliver say: “in the past I would have blamed myself.”
 

Jones: How did team Arrow decide to utilize the excellent Neal McDonough as the big bad of Arrow season four?
Guggenheim: Me, Wendy Mirecle, and Greg Berlanti wanted to cast McDonough last year but it didn’t work out for a variety of reasons.... Edited March 17, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

 

I think, hopefully, people are watching the show more for the evolution than the regression that came with earlier seasons.

What does he mean?

And

 

4×07 was one of our funnier episodes.

Huh? Was it?

[bijoux]

I didn't even pay attention to it until you pointed it out. I can only remember Felicity's comment about Oliver spending his nights in leather and tying people up. Nothing else I can recall would fall into the funy category.

[doesntworkonwood]

And I see a lot of resentment for that. That the conversation about the show is primarily about romance, instead of action-adventure-stunts-comics-TESTOSTERONE! So pleading the show to stop writing romantic beats, and character development that's linked to relationships is the way to silence the teenage fangirls from talking about romance on Arrow non-stop 24/7 ad nauseam in every single social media platform and fan board and EVERYWHERE.

The funniest thing is, even if they toned down the romance to the point where Felicity and Oliver barely even make eye contact, people would still be talking about the romance, they still wouldn't be able to escape it, because that's just the nature of TV shows and online fandom. And I'm pretty sure it's always been like that? People get excited about the relationships on shows, be they platonic or romantic. I mean, we can talk about how cool stunts are, or how technically great a shot is, but that is never going to generate as much 'fan content' as a relationship with two characters, because of the many ways that content can be created (twitter convos, fanfiction, videos, fanart, articles etc) as well as the many many ways each relationship (and the people within it) can be percieved and analysed. 

[kismet]

I think s4 has its problems. The main one was the baby mama crap which set Oliver back a few steps. The stunts are pretty poor tbh. Oliver doesn't have much focus out in the field when he should. And they still don't know how to balance the relationships between all of the characters. But I don't think the season needs to be saved. Season 3, however, was a different story. 

I agree that s4 has had the problems you stated. I would also say that the writers have not fully committed to or fleshed out a lot of the plotlines like the paralysis story or TQ bloodlust, even the mayoral campaign fell flat with the exception of a few good speeches. That being said the season does not need to be saved. It could have been much better, but it has been a pretty decent season overall with some very enjoyable & quality acting to overcome the multiple writing deficiencies.

 

The BMD though was a very low spot for the show, but even that could have been better. I do not think the concept of OQ having a surprise kid & BMD was a bad idea. It actually was very logical considering OQ's past both on the show & in the comics but the execution was horrible from beginning to the end. And hopefully we will never have to deal with BM/W ever again.

[kismet]

There's a part of this kind of criticism of the show that is actually related to the conversation about the show. Felicity and Oliver/Felicity make up the highest percentage of the content produced about the show online -- both in fandom and in pro media.

 

And I see a lot of resentment for that. That the conversation about the show is primarily about romance, instead of action-adventure-stunts-comics-TESTOSTERONE! So pleading the show to stop writing romantic beats, and character development that's linked to relationships is the way to silence the teenage fangirls from talking about romance on Arrow non-stop 24/7 ad nauseam in every single social media platform and fan board and EVERYWHERE.

Well perhaps they should get better action sequences and stunts to talk about. Also better filmed action scenes would help even if the choreography is pedestrian. People aren't going to talk about the same old 4 people hitting the same old 4 stunt people dressed as ghosts. Even all the cool DD villian stuff was played out after the first couple of episodes. And there are only so many ways to discuss the same cargo truck being chased by TA. I'd love to talk about how cool the show is from an action standpoint like I did in s1 & s2. Sadly, now the only real selling point of the show that is consistently good (even in its angst) is romance. The other more action parts of the show are being overshadowed by better action or CGI on other shows.

[tarotx]

Romance is not why I'm watching Arrow so it's not the only selling point. Characters that I care about is why I watch Arrow (LOT and I guess Flash as well but it's Only Barry there really). Relationships for all sorts is included in that though-including romance.

 

Well perhaps they should get better action sequences and stunts to talk about. Also better filmed action scenes would help even if the choreography is pedestrian. People aren't going to talk about the same old 4 people hitting the same old 4 stunt people dressed as ghosts. Even all the cool DD villian stuff was played out after the first couple of episodes. And there are only so many ways to discuss the same cargo truck being chased by TA. I'd love to talk about how cool the show is from an action standpoint like I did in s1 & s2. Sadly, now the only real selling point of the show that is consistently good (even in its angst) is romance. The other more action parts of the show are being overshadowed by better action or CGI on other shows.

[kismet]

What does he mean?

And

Huh? Was it?

I think it was MG being passive-aggressive and a stomping his feet like a little kid because of the comments people made about OQ's regression due to the poorly written BMD. MG will never admit that the writers idea or writing made OQ look dumb and regressed. It will always be the audience that is having problems, when if he was able to be honest with himself, he would know that they completely failed at the BMD storyline. But whatever its over and Trollenheim lives.

 

I agree with others that 407 was only funny for the bondage line... I truly believe that 415 was their funniest episode to date for all the wrong reasons. But that episode was hysterical, though I doubt they would want to highlight just how bad that episode was.

[kismet]

Romance is not why I'm watching Arrow so it's not the only selling point. Characters that I care about is why I watch Arrow (LOT and I guess Flash as well but it's Only Barry there really). Relationships for all sorts is included in that though-including romance.

I agree and the characters & relationships are why I turn into Arrow. But this season the only relationship that I think has been consistently good has been O/F. They have shelfed OTA which I would have said was the relationship that sold s1-3. Hopefully, they will return back to OTA. And I love Dig but they have been too inconsistent with him in s3-4. His relationships fluctuate from being important to non-existent or propping other characters. The other characters are fun and interesting but I would never turn in just to watch TQ, MM, LL, QL or even DD.

[tarotx]

I think Oliver and Diggle have been good this season. And he hasn't propped anyone up. And Quentin and laurel have been good. Thea and Oliver have had some great scenes. So have Thea and Malcolm( though some wtf scenes as well). The only thing missing for me is Thea being more in control of her life and Diggle and Felicity. 

 

I was actually just watching s2 LOA and Ollie is all heart to heart with Sara about secret and lies and he was on the side of they are bad :p But he still wouldn't tell Diggle and Felicity about his 5 years of hell :(

[dtissagirl]

I guess my point is -- it doesn't matter WHY individuals watch Arrow. There's no proper way to watch TV. If there's someone out there watching because Poppy is their fave character ever, that's just as valid as my reasons for watching [which legit boil down to I like watching pretty people being pretty on tv], and the dude who's read every single Green Arrow comic book ever published in every language.

 

But as a collective, it turned out that the reality of Arrow fandom is that the content produced about the show is majorly focused on Felicity and O/F. That cannot be changed because nobody is the boss of fandom. No matter how much anyone thinks that the "proper" way to watch Arrow should be to look at it from the ~honoring the comic book legacy~ pov, those folks have not produced nearly enough content about the show -- be it transformative, meta, or social -- to top those pesky 'shippers.

 

And in the new reality of pro-media content about TV properties, it so happens that those guys will ALSO cater to the side of fandom that produces more content, because we live in the wonderful world of 24/7 clickbaiting.

 

Here's the practical solution for Arrow to suddenly legit start being a faithful comic book adaptation with no romance: every one who wants that to happen needs to quadruple the amount of content they're producing about wanting the show to be like that. Fanfic, fanart, fanvid, polls, GIFs, GIFsets, meta posts, Tumblr posts, Twitter trends, Twitter chatter, everything, quadrupled.

 

And then quadruple it again. And again, and again. And then keep that volume of content steady for a couple of seasons.

Edited March 17, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Starfish35]

And in the new reality of pro-media content about TV properties, it so happens that those guys will ALSO cater to the side of fandom that produces more content, because we live in the wonderful world of 24/7 clickbaiting.

I'm being particularly dense today - I'm sorry. (Blame lack of sleep and painkillers.). But I'm not sure I follow you here. I know quite a lot of shows where the fandom doesn't resemble the show at all (Teen Wolf for one).

[dtissagirl]

I'm being particularly dense today - I'm sorry. (Blame lack of sleep and painkillers.). But I'm not sure I follow you here. I know quite a lot of shows where the fandom doesn't resemble the show at all (Teen Wolf for one).

 

Haha, I'm not sure I understand what you don't understand? I do think media coverage that's trying to get fandom to click/reblog gets trickier when canon =/= fanon in radical ways like Teen Wolf. No pro reviewer suddenly started talking about Stiles/Derek in a romantic way when covering TW -- but surely it didn't hurt them to use a still of those guys to illustrate the article.

 

Teen Wolf is kind of an special snowflake in how the creatives and talent behind the show completely missed the point of what its fandom was about, by mostly rejecting the Stiles/Derek 'shippers more than anything else. And media tends to follow when the creatives take a position like that, because they want to be on the creative's side to keep their access.

 

SPN does it a lot more efficiently , because they queerbait fandom with a bunch of Dean/Castiel subtext-y stuff in the show, and then the media coverage uses THAT for clickbait.

Edited March 17, 2016 by dtissagirl