Clock Tower Theater: Fanfic, Fan Music Videos and Art

[apinknightmare]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I've gone through my list and realized a lot of the older authors have stopped putting out new fics and in many cases abandoned older fics. 

I don't know if it's a reaction to how Olicity was handled in S3/4 or if it's because Olicity became reality and thus some authors lost interest in exploring the pairing in fics?

I don't think abandoning fics in progress usually has much to do with the show. I mean, in some cases someone who's writing an AU for a non-canon ship might not want to keep writing the AU once the ship becomes canon, but I think by and large people just lose interest in the stories they're writing. That's why I only post one-shots or longer fics once they're finished, because I am one of those people who would lose interest, no matter how much I shipped the ship. 

Edited July 19, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I've gone through my list and realized a lot of the older authors have stopped putting out new fics and in many cases abandoned older fics. 

I don't know if it's a reaction to how Olicity was handled in S3/4 or if it's because Olicity became reality and thus some authors lost interest in exploring the pairing in fics?

Yeah, I agree with @Ang. I think it's a bit of both. I mean, O/F were a reality at the end of s3 and I couldn't keep up with the amount of fics that were being posted during the summer hiatus. It was fun. Now it's just kind of...meh after what happened. And then I think some older fic writers just kind of move on to new pairings tbh. Not that they explicitly lose interest in Olicity but in the show in general because there's a new and exciting OTP for them to ship.

[TrueMyth]

2 hours ago, Ang said:

And yes, there is a serious dearth of new fics lately. It's not really surprising given the showmakers' horrible mishandling of Olicity and the uninspiring spoilers coming out. Way to kill something amazing, Show.

I know a lot of writers are working on the Olicity Fic Big Bang due this August.  There are apparently at least 40 authors turning in 20k+ stories then.  We can't all be Macha who is managing to run two separate quality WiPs as WELL as a OFBB story.  More is the pity.

[kismet]

I think its a combination of both as well. But I can't help but think the way they handled O/F in s4 didn't help but kill a little bit of inspiration. I find myself being drawn to AUs, that can't be a coincidence. I don't even want fix-its because as much as I want O/F fixed I want it canon and onscreen. Any fanfics that manage to do it will only disappoint me later when the show fails to do it. Or not do it as well.

[Morrigan2575]

11 hours ago, looptab said:

Go for it. Please and thank you.

Saddest thing I've come across in years of fandom was the sheer amount of praise people gave to that fic. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[HighHopes]

8 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Saddest thing I've come across in years of fandom was the sheer amount of praise people gave to that fic. 

I haven't resd the fic, but I left a review. I normally don't leave negative reviews (when I come across a fic I find issues with I usually just discuss it with friends and leave it at that). But when it's something like this I feel like people should say something. 

[calliope1975]

I'm all for creative freedom, but yeah, that entire premise was icky. You can have Oliver start out douchey and grow, which is what the author states she is going to do, but you have to make it clear that that type of behavior is not okay. And, it seemed like the other characters were totes cool with it. No big deal. I mean, you have to have sex with a guy that's harassing you to make him stop the harassment is so...mind-boggling wrong. 

[looptab]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Saddest thing I've come across in years of fandom was the sheer amount of praise people gave to that fic. 

That's why it's even more important to leave comments like yours. This stuff needs to be pointed out.

[Morrigan2575]

8 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I'm all for creative freedom, but yeah, that entire premise was icky. You can have Oliver start out douchey and grow, which is what the author states she is going to do, but you have to make it clear that that type of behavior is not okay. And, it seemed like the other characters were totes cool with it. No big deal. I mean, you have to have sex with a guy that's harassing you to make him stop the harassment is so...mind-boggling wrong. 

See, that's the problem, if you write DBag Oliver because you want him to grow that's fine but, you have to show that Oliver is wrong. What this author is doing is enabling Oliver's actions. 

I actually read a fic like that, Oliver/Felicity meet as teens and Oliver pulls his normal Dbag, constantly hitting on her routine.  Then they grow up but, Felicity doesn't see that Oliver has matured so while he's trying to woo her she keeps thinking he's still just trying to get in her pants.

It was an enjoyable fic, will have to go re-read it, if i can  it.

[arjumand]

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Saddest thing I've come across in years of fandom was the sheer amount of praise people gave to that fic. 

My favourite (as in, eeek) was the one which claimed that what Oliver was doing wasn't sexual harassment because, and I'm quoting: "First, it is fanfiction and not real life."

What? So, if someone writes fanfic in which there's a murder, it's not really a murder because it's not real life? What does that even mean?

Her next argument is that "Second, if the harassment had only started at work it would be different," i.e., worse.

Wow. It's ok because it didn't start at work, it started when she was in fucking high school, and he was a legal adult. Wow.

I can't decide which is worse, the fic author or these clueless commenters.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

My favourite (as in, eeek) was the one which claimed that what Oliver was doing wasn't sexual harassment because, and I'm quoting: "First, it is fanfiction and not real life."

What? So, if someone writes fanfic in which there's a murder, it's not really a murder because it's not real life? What does that even mean?

Her next argument is that "Second, if the harassment had only started at work it would be different," i.e., worse.

Wow. It's ok because it didn't start at work, it started when she was in fucking high school, and he was a legal adult. Wow.

I can't decide which is worse, the fic author or these clueless commenters.

That's the comment that had me dismayed. Sad.

[bijoux]

So, I've given in while waitig for the fics I'm following to get updated and started reading City of Fallen Heroes. Why, why do I do this to myself? The first five chapters, which I have read so far, are kind of... Great. But also painful. The concept of five years back flashbacks being used for Felicity, but in the future is well executed, the characters are not exactly who they are now given this is taking place in 2026 but they make sense. I was worried about the kids, but they haven't even showed up in the present day yet, and the plethora of new characters. That last one got dealt with rather summarily in the last part. And now I just want to consume it and have it be updated yesterday and... Guh.

Edited July 20, 2016 by bijoux
Actually, I remembered that the older daughter, Grace, actually does have a line or two, but they are far from overwhelming the fic.

[lemotomato]

16 minutes ago, bijoux said:

So, I've given in while waitig for the fics I'm following to get updated and started reading City of Fallen Heroes. Why, why do I do this to myself? The first five chapters, which I have read so far, are kind of... Great. But also painful. The concept of five years back flashbacks being used for Felicity, but in the future is well executed, the characters are not exactly who they are now given this is taking place in 2026 but they make sense. I was worried about the kids, but they haven't even showed up in the present day yet, and the plethora of new characters. That last one got dealt with rather summarily in the last part. And now I just want to consume it and have it be updated yesterday and... Guh.

I gave that story a try because a couple authors I follow recommended it. I had to stop because it was chapter after chapter of 

Spoiler

unending misery, in both the flashbacks and present day. I understand there needs to be conflict, but there's not a single moment of respite before the next disaster happens,

and I can't deal with that in a WIP. It is very well-written, though.

[statsgirl]

On 7/20/2016 at 8:09 AM, arjumand said:

I can't decide which is worse, the fic author or these clueless commenters.

That's the problem, that she gets reinforced in the awesomeness of her writing so why should she listen to those few people who have problems with it.

Many writers only want to be told how wonderful they are.    I really admire writers who can take a critical comment, look at it and weigh it honestly, and acknowledge if there is any truth to it.  I've had a number of times when I've left positive comment after comment and then come across something I disagree with (e.g. I don't think keeping dolphins in aquariums is cute), left a comment about that in the middle of something positive, and then got shut down completely.

However, if you want something truly bad, there's an author at AO3 called Stand_with_Ward_and_Salvatore who writes a lot of fic with Oliver/Laurel as true loves and hating on Felicity.  It's basically a re-writing of s4 except Laurel gets to yell at Felicity and say she's tired of the pedestal everyone puts Felicity on (no transference there, right?) but otherwise it's pretty much the same thing as the show except with Laurel doing what Felicity did while Felicity proves herself unworthy.

In one of the fic, Laurel does get killed by DD and Oliver realizes Laurel was the love of his life and he was distracted by Felicity. He is determined to start killing again to avenge her while Felicity wrings her hands and says "“Oliver, this isn’t you.” and begs him not to kill again.  I commented, pointing out that on the show it was Felicity who wanted Oliver to kill to avenge Laurel's death.  Not only did I not get a reply, my comment wasn't even posted (the author moderates comments).

[Guest]

1 minute ago, statsgirl said:

That's the problem, that she gets reinforced in the awesomeness of her writing so why should she listen to those few people who have problems with it.

Many writers only want to be told how wonderful they are.    I really admire writers who can take a critical comment, look at it and weigh it honestly, and acknowledge if there is any truth to it.  I've had a number of times when I've left positive comment after comment and then come across something I disagree with (e.g. I don't think keeping dolphins in aquariums is cute), left a comment about that in the middle of something positive, and then got shut down completely.

However, if you want something truly bad, there's an author at AO3 called Stand_with_Ward_and_Salvatore who writes a lot of fic with Oliver/Laurel as true loves and hating on Felicity.  It's basically a re-writing of s4 except Laurel gets to yell at Felicity and say she's tired of the pedestal everyone puts Felicity on (no transference there, right?) but otherwise it's pretty much the same thing as the show except with Laurel doing what Felicity did while Felicity proves herself unworthy.

I haven't read the author you're all discussing but I kinda feel this way about whoever writes FICoN tbh. They get so many people thinking the fic is the best thing since sliced bread that they berate anyone who thinks otherwise, like actually calling out negative comments on twitter, even if they might have a point. I think that might have turned me off the fic even more tbh. If you can't acknowledge critical comments, don't post online. It's a simple as that.

Also, why are you reading O/L fic? Who hurt you?! Save yourself! 

[statsgirl]

1 minute ago, Angel12d said:

IAlso, why are you reading O/L fic? Who hurt you?! Save yourself! 

LOL.

I looked at one that was tagged previous-Olicity because I try read different points of view and I thought it might be interesting to see how Oliver would be written if Olicity was truly in the past.  It was also post Laurel's death so I thought it was safe.  Apparently Oliver blames Evil Siren Felicity for everything he fails to do.

Then there was one where Laurel went to Nanda Parbat with Oliver and Thea instead of Diggle and Felicity and I peeked for the sheer awfulness of it.

[Starfish35]

Quote

there's an author at AO3 called Stand_with_Ward_and_Salvatore

Lol.  The Stand with Ward part tells me everything I need to know. 

[bijoux]

Who's Ward?

[arjumand]

17 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

I haven't read the author you're all discussing but I kinda feel this way about whoever writes FICoN tbh. They get so many people thinking the fic is the best thing since sliced bread that they berate anyone who thinks otherwise, like actually calling out negative comments on twitter, even if they might have a point [snip]

Yeah. I stopped reading FICoN in the early chapters, but there's another, really popular (and very good) writer who's doing something similar - a few days ago, started complaining on tumblr about some criticism she got in a recent fic. Try as I might, I could not find the offending comment, because author said she'd responded, and there weren't any answers to comments. And it might be meanspirited of me, but if you have over 800 comments composed entirely of ass-kissing, maybe you can deal with one/two which aren't? Ugh. I've said too much. Shame! Shame! (Must. Stop. Watching. GameofThrones.)

23 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

That's the problem, that she gets reinforced in the awesomeness of her writing so why should she listen to those few people who have problems with it.

[snip]

  Not only did I not get a reply, my comment wasn't even posted (the author moderates comments).

That's such a bad sign, isn't it? Especially on AO3, where you can delete comments after they've come in, unlike on ffn, where you can only delete guest comments. It's worst when the moderation of comments comes with an author's note which says "This is my first fanfic and English is my second language! I welcome constructive criticism but don't be mean!"

Girl. Seriously. A lot of people are ESL (one of them being me) and they don't bang on about it, because nothing is preventing them and you from actually reading books in English to see how things should be done - like simple punctuation conventions, etc.

[bijoux]

11 minutes ago, arjumand said:

Yeah. I stopped reading FICoN in the early chapters, but there's another, really popular (and very good) writer who's doing something similar - a few days ago, started complaining on tumblr about some criticism she got in a recent fic. Try as I might, I could not find the offending comment, because author said she'd responded, and there weren't any answers to comments. And it might be meanspirited of me, but if you have over 800 comments composed entirely of ass-kissing, maybe you can deal with one/two which aren't? Ugh. I've said too much. Shame! Shame! (Must. Stop. Watching. GameofThrones.)

I'm 99% sure I know who you're talking about. It could be a reply to an earlier chapter because that writer sometimes takes a while to respond to comments.

[arjumand]

Just now, bijoux said:

I'm 99% sure I know who you're talking about. It could be a reply to an earlier chapter because that writer sometimes takes a while to respond to comments.

Oh, ok - I'll look again, but tomorrow. Different time zones and all.

I don't know if anyone answered you in PM, but Ward is a character in Marvel's Agents of Shield - he starts out as one of the good guys,

Spoiler

but then turns out to have been HYDRA ALL ALONG! Gasp! Of course, because he's good-looking in an American slab o'beef sort of way, all his little fangirls still think there's good in him. I personally draw the line when my 'hero' kills a dog, sorry.

[TrueMyth]

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

Yeah. I stopped reading FICoN in the early chapters, but there's another, really popular (and very good) writer who's doing something similar - a few days ago, started complaining on tumblr about some criticism she got in a recent fic. Try as I might, I could not find the offending comment, because author said she'd responded, and there weren't any answers to comments. And it might be meanspirited of me, but if you have over 800 comments composed entirely of ass-kissing, maybe you can deal with one/two which aren't? Ugh. I've said too much. Shame! Shame! (Must. Stop. Watching. GameofThrones.)

Heh.  I'm pretty sure I know which story you are talking about because I also went and tried to find the comment and how it was handled.  I even went back a couple chapters until I got depressed and realized that it was a rather silly way to spend my time.  That writer takes pride in her characterization and that was what was being critiqued.  So I can sort of understand because we all have things we wish we did better in writing and things we like about our writing.  It's hard to let go of that ego when our strength is attacked.  However, I do think it goes towards the classic writing advice to "kill your darlings."  Not in a G.R.R. Martin way, but rather be ready to sacrifice that metaphor you love that doesn't fit the mood of the rest of the story...  Or maybe be open to considering that your AU fic is, by definition, out of character from the main show, since it's an Alternate Universe.

ConCrit is hard in this day and age (and fandom?).  It is simply not the norm any more, even when politely delivered and sandwiched between complements.

[AyChihuahua]

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

Oh, ok - I'll look again, but tomorrow. Different time zones and all.

I don't know if anyone answered you in PM, but Ward is a character in Marvel's Agents of Shield - he starts out as one of the good guys,

  Hide contents

but then turns out to have been HYDRA ALL ALONG! Gasp! Of course, because he's good-looking in an American slab o'beef sort of way, all his little fangirls still think there's good in him. I personally draw the line when my 'hero' kills a dog, sorry.

Oh, I was so dunzo when that happened. And it was his own. 

I mean, he died and his likeness/memories were stolen by a human-eating parasitic alien, and people still shipped Skye/AlienParasiteWard. At some point, you've gotta let it go.

[Morrigan2575]

Quote

ConCrit is hard in this day and age (and fandom?).  It is simply not the norm any more, even when politely delivered and sandwiched between complements.

That's so odd to me, when I started reading fanfic Construction Criticism was always welcomed. That's how writers improved their skills, they would get advice from other fanfic writers and readers.  That's one of my favorite aspects of fandom, watching a fanfic writer grow and improve.

[TrueMyth]

Even in the days of LiveJournal circa 2005, ConCrit was becoming rare.  A circle of writer friends of mine created a community to try to encourage ConCrit comments with awards and such, but even that met with limited success.  At the same time, beta reading seems to be less done (or at least less talked about).  Back when I was writing Veronica Mars fanfiction, it was de rigueur to thank your readers and editors within your author's note.  I don't see that often at all on Ao3 these days.

I suppose if you're enough of a grammar superstar that you can write things that don't make me gag without an editor then more power to you, but I really like to have a couple people read anything of length. 

[statsgirl]

I suppose it's like many things, innovators start out and want criticism because they want to improve and then other people join, some of whom don't want to put in the hard work but just want to write something down and be told how wonderful they are.  And there are many people to tell them how wonderful they are.  (Thinks reality TV.)

I used to write/beta with a circle of five friends. (One of us would write something and send it around, everyone would comment in different colours and argue whether the character would really do that, the writer would make changes, everyone would comment again (in italics this time).  A story could go through seven rounds until the others thought it was good enough to be put out there.  So much fun.

But that's not for everyone.  I guess you just have to find an author you like and let the rest go.

Do you know to who I often want to say "that character wouldn't do that!!!!"?  The Arrow writers room.  Felicity's "Please save Oliver" in The Promise still gives me nightmares.

[calliope1975]

I can't say I love ConCrit, but I definitely appreciate it and respect it. I don't have a Beta and sometimes the story I see in my head isn't what makes it to paper. I'm not going to become a better writer without criticism. 

[wonderwall]

 I consider this tweet art:

[bijoux]

[arjumand]

7 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Do you know to who I often want to say "that character wouldn't do that!!!!"?  The Arrow writers room.  Felicity's "Please save Oliver" in The Promise still gives me nightmares.

Ugh, don't get me started with the Arrow writers and their idea of good characterization. My pet peeve is the PrettyWomaning of Felicity aka Ray Palmer, boyfriend from hell.

Not that they do Oliver any favours. Recently I saw a gif on tumblr of Oliver taking the phone call from Slade telling him that he had Felicity, and everyone was squeeing about how horrified Oliver looked. All I'm doing is tearing my hear out, because it was HIS IDEA. He knew it was going to happen. There's no-one who needs to be tricked. Who is he acting for? The camera, of course, but JFC. I've heard of the term fridge logic (how plot points fall apart half an hour later, when you're staring into your fridge), but in this case we need another term, for when it falls apart as you're watching. Ugh, that episode.

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

Not that they do Oliver any favours. Recently I saw a gif on tumblr of Oliver taking the phone call from Slade telling him that he had Felicity, and everyone was squeeing about how horrified Oliver looked. All I'm doing is tearing my hear out, because it was HIS IDEA. He knew it was going to happen. There's no-one who needs to be tricked. Who is he acting for? The camera, of course, but JFC. I've heard of the term fridge logic (how plot points fall apart half an hour later, when you're staring into your fridge), but in this case we need another term, for when it falls apart as you're watching. Ugh, that episode.

I cannot think of a single character who hasn't been thrown under the bus multiple times. All the times. But I don't actually have a problem with that scene. I took it as a shit, that actually worked, now what moment.

If you or @TrueMyth could link me to the comment we discussed earlier, the one the fic writer complained about, I'd be curious to read it.

Edited July 22, 2016 by bijoux

[arjumand]

41 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I cannot think of a single character who hasn't been thrown under the bus multiple times. All the times. But I don't actually have a problem with hat scene. I took it as a shit, that actually worked, now what moment.

If you or @TrueMyth could link me to the comment we discussed earlier, the one the fic writer complained about, I'd be curious to read it.

I suppose it works that way! I think I was just annoyed that it was chosen as a sign of HIS LOVE, lol.

I sent you a link to what I think is the offending comment, lol.

[TrueMyth]

I never found the comment, but I wouldn't mind a link, @arjumand!

I actually think the most narratively twisted character has been Thea.  Willa does a lot with what she is given, but Thea is not a complex or intricate character.  She is one I don't really quibble about in fic if someone gives her layers I don't expect.  However, one pillar of her characterization has always been her hatred of lies... And it went right out the window with the BMD.  I'm not even sure what was gained by her finding out and giving Oliver a pass, unless the writers hoped to manipulate me into feeling the same.  Ugh, if I had read that in a fic first, I would have commented about how out of character it was for Thea.

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, TrueMyth said:

I never found the comment, but I wouldn't mind a link, @arjumand!

I actually think the most narratively twisted character has been Thea.  Willa does a lot with what she is given, but Thea is not a complex or intricate character.  She is one I don't really quibble about in fic if someone gives her layers I don't expect.  However, one pillar of her characterization has always been her hatred of lies... And it went right out the window with the BMD.  I'm not even sure what was gained by her finding out and giving Oliver a pass, unless the writers hoped to manipulate me into feeling the same.  Ugh, if I had read that in a fic first, I would have commented about how out of character it was for Thea.

I sent you the link, but not mine (it was wrong) - bijoux found the correct one!

Oh, Thea. Don't get me started. It was bad enough that as soon as we had the reveal, and Oliver started lying to Felicity, their whole relationship was ruined for me at that point. I couldn't enjoy any of the charming, quirky stuff, because inside I was just churning with frustration that he was acting like a cheating husband.

Then we come to that Thea scene - after having to sit through two and a half seasons of Thea's INSUFFERABLE whining about secrets and lies, we get that speech which was a typical 'take the gentle reader by the hand' which I thought had died out with Dickens. For fuck's sake.

And now she's gone off to whereverthefuck. Don't hurry back.

Edited July 22, 2016 by arjumand

[TrueMyth]

I think Thea's had a staycation, since the last we saw of her was curled up at Laurel's old place taking a rest after lighting enough candles to make the League of Assassins happy.  But we should probably take any more of this to Thea's thread.

[TrueMyth]

The ConCrit debate has really blown up on my Tumblr feed, and the author has even quoted portions of the precipitating comment.  Here's her most recent discussion of why readers should withhold all criticism.  Here is the offending comment.  Many Arrow fic writers have reblogged and added their voices to a call for no criticism unless explicitly solicited in author's notes.  It seems that's where this fandom at least is going.  I've no idea what the norm is in other fandoms.

I've always found writing and reading more of a dialogue between authors and readers, and treasured the ability to get into discussions with authors about stories that have made me think, which is why the metaphors of crafting and baking don't mirror my personal understanding of fanfic.  I do not think readers should be needlessly cruel or ALL negative.  Just as you don't want to discuss highly passionate topics such as politics or religion with someone who simply states, "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong."  However, I can see that some writers view their stories as amateur artistic creations and expect a different approach.

I'm contemplating how to phrase my author's note to make clear I welcome critical discussion without opening myself to wannabe betas.

[apinknightmare]

I really like Macha, so this commentary isn't directed at her at all, because there has been a push for positivity or nothing lately, and if someone feels better making an argument about why people shouldn't criticize their writing, I think they should definitely go for it! Not everyone is in it for the same thing. For some people, fic is practice - a nice break from their regular writing. Some people just do it for fun and aren't really looking for anything other than praise from the people who love the thing like they do, and that's cool too! But I feel like if you don't want criticism, you should just close all comments. When you open yourself up for praise, you open yourself up to criticism. An author's note or Tumblr post isn't going to stop someone from responding negatively if that's what they want to do - the only way you can stop them is to not let them comment at all.

Arrow is the smallest fandom I've written for, and I can't recall having any truly bad experiences in it. I've had people tell me that they thought someone acted out of character or something happened too quickly or whatever and that's cool. They're probably right, because I write fic in my spare time for free and I'm not perfect. They're free to express these thoughts to me! I guess it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal, because in the larger fandoms where I'd get 1500-2000 reviews on a chapter, 95% would be lovely, 4% would be fairly critical, and 1% would be downright abusive. Once someone tells you to cut your fingers off so you can't write anymore...commentary about someone being OOC doesn't seem all that bad, haha. 

[wonderwall]

In light of Stephen saying the most important relationship in the show is between Oliver/Star City... Someone came up with this. And I died:

[Guest]

That new hashtag is the best thing ever. I love the fandom response to this whole dumb thing. :)

[apinknightmare]

The whole tag is amazing, but that video made me laugh so hard there were actual tears. 

[bijoux]

That is amazing. I thought it was just a gif of Oliver looking at the SC skyline, which is fairly funny. This is so much better.

[looptab]

I've never commented on a FF - I got into it fairly recently and never felt the need to comment, yet - but I think ConCrit is fundamental, and  wanting to avoid and ban that seems  very presumptuous to me. I get wanting to create a positive feeling, but I believe that pointing out "the bad" is just as important as praising the good. 

[bijoux]

I don't know if I've ever left a negative comment, but even I find this line of thinking uncomfortable. By all means, don't be an asshole to the writer, but I feel like there should be an opportunity for dialogue between the writer and the reader. If I have enjoyed what you wrote, I'm going to leave you a note about what I enjoyed about it. But if something perplexes me, I also feel I should be able to freely ask why you zigged instead of zagged. 

On a different front, I think I'll be dropping Run to the Water. I deeply enjoyed the first chapter, however, I can't seem to connect with Oliver and Felicity's (semi-)grown up versions. To top it off, in the latest chapter the writer made Laurel 

Spoiler

a prostitute.

Maybe there's a deeper story there. In which case, if anyone here is still reading, please, let me know. But it feels like score settling at this point and that's not what I look for in fics.

[tv echo]

I'm also finding the new fan tweets using the #OliCity hashtag hilarious - more examples (retweeted at @SmoaknArrow)...

Edited July 26, 2016 by tv echo

[looptab]

I'm crying, hahahaha.

[lemotomato]

4 hours ago, bijoux said:

Maybe there's a deeper story there. In which case, if anyone here is still reading, please, let me know. But it feels like score settling at this point and that's not what I look for in fics.

The might be a deeper story, but judging from how the author has portrayed Laurel in her other fics, I'm pretty sure she just doesn't like her very much.

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

The might be a deeper story, but judging from how the author has portrayed Laurel in her other fics, I'm pretty sure she just doesn't like her very much.

Thanks. I guess I'm skipping it then.

[EmeraldArcher]

34 minutes ago, looptab said:

I'm crying, hahahaha.

I think I honest to goodness guffawed when I read the one about Google maps and finding another way.  They're all awesome!

I love the creativity in this fandom!

[doesntworkonwood]

As far as concrit goes, quite frankly as soon as you put something into the public sphere there are going to be people that react negatively towards it. It doesn't matter if you're speaking to a group of friends or if you've put it on the internet, it doesn't matter if it's about politics or religion, or just about a tv show. Either way, not everyone is going to like what you say, and that's okay. 

 

For me, fandom is about back and forth. It's not just sitting on my own watching a show, it's watching a show, talking about it, laughing about it and criticising it with people all over the globe. Part of that is fanfiction, and quite frankly the back and forth is the best part about that. Being able to discuss characterisation, why people have got a different set of ideas about a character than other groups of people, why would the show work in a different universe, what changes to the show would affect the characters the most. Back and forth isn't just giving kudos, it's not just leaving a comment saying that this is the best fic ever. I think that banning concrit essentially just shuts down that conversation, not just because people can't post concrit but because people might be afraid to post anything beyond 'this is amazing' and that's not really fandom to me. 

 

As far as a baking analogy goes, if you give your friends a cake with too much salt in it, they're going to tell you it's salty. If you tell them it's blueberry and it's actually strawberry they're going to comment on it. I don't really know anyone who doesn't want to get better, or go further with their hobbies. It's not a job, an you do it for free and you put a lot of love into it and you don't owe anyone anything and I understand that, but I don't get why people don't want to improve on something if they enjoy it and love it so much. 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, TrueMyth said:

The ConCrit debate has really blown up on my Tumblr feed, and the author has even quoted portions of the precipitating comment.  Here's her most recent discussion of why readers should withhold all criticism.  Here is the offending comment.  Many Arrow fic writers have reblogged and added their voices to a call for no criticism unless explicitly solicited in author's notes.  It seems that's where this fandom at least is going.  I've no idea what the norm is in other fandoms.

I've always found writing and reading more of a dialogue between authors and readers, and treasured the ability to get into discussions with authors about stories that have made me think, which is why the metaphors of crafting and baking don't mirror my personal understanding of fanfic.  I do not think readers should be needlessly cruel or ALL negative.  Just as you don't want to discuss highly passionate topics such as politics or religion with someone who simply states, "you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong."  However, I can see that some writers view their stories as amateur artistic creations and expect a different approach.

I really love that author's work. She's one of the best in this fandom. But I've just read her tumblr discussion and I disagree with a lot of what she's said. You post online, you accept any comments you receive. It really is as simple as that. Demanding that people don't comment if they don't like something isn't right or realistic. I think as long as you're as nice and respectful as possible, you should comment however you choose.

And what is up with these writers always publicly calling out these negative comments? Just let it go, FFS!