Bethenny & Jason: The Divorce Showdown

[zoeysmom]

29 minutes ago, Jel said:

Growing up, in my house anyway, "cheekiness" was a serious offense; it was an all-encompassing word that meant both "impudent" and "impertinent", which I think sums up Bethenny's sense of humor (using my definition anyway).   It's not everyone's cup of tea, nor should it be expected to be. (I sincerely did not mean to imply that you are humorless, Zoeysmom--far from it--I have laughed at many of your posts!)

I think Bethenny can be hypocritical at times, also dramatic, brash and bitchy, but how do we relate that to Jason's (alleged!) crimes?  Even the brash and bitchy can be violated. Even the most awful people can be the victims of a crime.  And even if it's poetic justice, or turnabout or something,  if he did what he's accused of, he broke the law.  That's the unavoidable bottom line that I see.  

When I think of cheeky I do think of irreverent  but more to the side of endearing or amusing not cruel or biting.

Here is what my issue is-Bethenny can feel harassed by Jason's texts and e-mails. I don't see how she feels threatened in a physical sense.  It is the over dramatization of the situation and choice of descriptive words.  Whether or not his comments taken in context and not just choice phrases rise to meet the elements of the crime is one for the trier of fact.  The "I'll pray for you," comment.  Surprise, there seems to be an issue about Bryn, a baptized Catholic, going to church too often.  Bethenny claims (and I do find this one hard to believe) it was agreed the child would only attend high holidays.  I can't imagine having my child, wanting to go to mass and getting a babysitter, because it offends the child's mother sensibilities the child is going to church  too frequently.  I would also find it unfair to Bethenny if Jason expected Bethenny to take Bryn to high holiday masses if she had custody.  So if that was part of the discussion and he closed off with, "I'll pray for you," it would not seem to be harassing.  If it is an expression Jason has coined to vent his frustration with the situation I also think he is entitled to use it.  I just don't ever see a court telling someone they are not to say, "I'll pray for you," more or less because of First Amendment issues.  Now if he signed off "toodles, bitch," or "I will pray for your old,  ugly irrelevant soul," he would have to know that would be annoying.

Since this is more about the upcoming trial and I see a problem in a jury having to discern what is truly upsetting over the hyperbole that Bethenny has graced the public with over the past ten years.  Even her initial entrance into network TV, Martha Stewart pointed out Bethenny cried a lot.   I don't think Martha was saying someone could never cry, it just hard to determine what the average person would do.  I would say it is safe to say anything that comes out of Jason's mouth or fingers on to a keyboard Bethenny finds annoying. 

As part of their divorce agreement they were required to carry life insurance policy's with the other as named as beneficiary.  Common practice and annual proof of  renewal would be important.   If inquiring about the policy is so upsetting to Bethenny perhaps she should not have demanded Jason carry a policy in her initial filings.  Again everything can't put one over the edge.  I am assuming since Bethenny was crying on TV about having a surgical procedure, Jason had to take her comments about having a person in case of death.  So it might be reasonable to ask if the policy was up to date.  Or better yet have the insurance carrier or agent send the beneficiary notice the premiums have been paid. 

[Celia Rubenstein]

2 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

Bethenny uses terms like brutal and tortured to describe her divorce.  So when a woman presents with physical injuries from a significant other she decides it makes others uncomfortable to talk about it ...  

...When one puts something in quotes it is indicative the writer is questioning the use of the term to describe someone or something.  Just because someone doesn't press charges doesn't mean the abuse didn't happen. The more important conversation would be why Tinsley felt so powerless to prosecute her abuser.  Maybe the show will give her power to pursue a prosecution.

 

I am not sure Bethenny wants to avoid talking about Tinsley's situation because it makes her uncomfortable, at least not for the reason being suggested (which seems to be that she is incapable of seeing another woman as a victim), 

I suspect her discomfort might be because by the issue of Tinsley's own role in the situation with her boyfriend.

While there is little doubt that Tinsley was a victim of physical abuse (we've all see the receipts), it was rumored that she dished out a fair amount of whoop-ass on her boyfriend during those drunken brawls, herself.  And despite his attempts to end their relationship and even moving on with other women,  Tinsley refused to leave him alone (to the point that she was arrested for trespassing).  Between that and the fact that Tinsley certainly had it within her means to leave and be completely free of the situation- she was in no way financially dependent upon him, had no children with the guy - she repeatedly chose to try and force the relationship.  Some say it was because she wanted in on that sugar-money funded, top-wrung Palm Beach lifestyle.  And she didn't prosecute this guy because it would alienate him even further, not because she was powerless or in some kind of fear of him.

I can see how that might make someone like Bethenny ... impatient with the whole thing, shall we say.  I think a lot of people might be.  It can be hard to listen to someone tell what you consider only half the story and omit their own role in what went on.  Or not acknowledge their own unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation. It's great when one can set aside doubt and judgment and just be supportive.  But there is also a point where that can turn into supporting someone's unhealthy view of their own predicament.  It's a fine line. I'm not suggesting that is Bethenny's motivation for being less than supportive of Tinsley, however.  I think it is because the whole thing is much more personal for her. 

What I mean is, I think it is entirely likely that Tinsley's behavior reminds Bethenny of how her own mother denies the drunken fights she allegedly engaged in with her husband, how she refused to leave him, and won't take responsibility for anything she ever did herself. Lord knows that's been THE sore spot for Bethenny her whole life.  I don't expect Beth to have a whole lot of sympathy for someone she sees as being similar to Bernadette.  

 

25 minutes ago, film noire said:

... if Frankel was  stalked, and then treated a battered woman like this, she's beyond horrible -

You seem to suggest that all women who experience stalking, harassment, violence are obligated to support each other.  I don't think that is a fair expectation at all.  Being an abuse or stalking victim is not some kind of "club" you are automatically enrolled in by virtue of your experience as a victim.  It doesn't require you to adopt a certain viewpoint about the subject in general or about another woman in particular.  

To the extent that we do actually see that kind of automatic support among victims, it is usually the result of one woman identifying with the experiences of another woman.  I don't think Bethenny in any way identifies with Tinsley Mortimer or what she went through.  One could describe Tinsley as having fought tooth and nail to save a mutually abusive relationship in order to maintain a certain financial and social lifestyle the man could provide her despite him cracking her head open. Bethenny, on the other hand, probably sees herself as a self-made, totally independent millionaire who dumped her husband for simply not treating her right and then had his ass arrested when he wouldn't back off.  I can see why she feels they have nothing in common and has no inclination to automatically support Tinsley just because they've both had trouble with the man in their lives. 

 

Quote

Sorry, I just looked this up.  Stalking does not fall under Domestic Violence.

 I am not sure why what heading the offense Jason is charged with falls under matters. What difference does it make? 

Edited June 24, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[film noire]

4 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

It doesn't require you to adopt a certain viewpoint about the subject in general or about another woman in particular.  

 

When you're heading up a group for women in crisis, then (to use Frankel's favorite word) YES, you are required to be supportive of women in crisis. 

5 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

 I am not sure why what heading the offense Jason is charged with falls under matters. What difference does it make? 

Breezy was correcting misinformation posted here that it was domestic violence.

Edited June 24, 2017 by film noire

[Celia Rubenstein]

Quote

When you're heading up a group for women in crisis, then (to use Frankel's favorite word) YES, you are required to be supportive of women in crisis. 

Even if you feel their crisis is mainly self-inflicted?

Edited June 24, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[zoeysmom]

11 minutes ago, film noire said:

 And Bethenny's reaction to Tinsley's abuse is very germane to the divorce, imo -- if Frankel was  stalked, and then treated a battered woman like this, she's beyond horrible -- and her use of scare quotes now has me wondering if the "stalking" claims are, after all, just a bullshit game on Frankel's part, and not a sincere "fear" for her "safety". (See how nasty those quotation marks are? Exactly.) If you were genuinely terrified (as Frankel "claims") how could you refer to another woman's battery like that? Tinsley ended up with staples in her head. There's no "disputing" that.  And still, Frankel shames her for talking about being abused because it's uncomfortable, as if Tinsley had crossed a line etiquette-wise - all while running (the icing on Frankel's shit cake) a CRISIS INTERVENTION group.  Women of the world: B Wise and stay away from B Strong.

It is part of Bethenny's make up comparing.  When Luann was confronted about Tom. she immediately brought up Adam as being the better man.  Luann wisely shut it down.  You don't compare men.   

It would have been far better had Bethenny said, "Tinsley is another example of abuse coming in both physical and emotional and can happen to anyone regardless of the station in life or financial resources.'   

[Jel]

7 minutes ago, film noire said:

And Bethenny's reaction to Tinsley's abuse is very germane to the divorce, imo -- if Frankel was  stalked, and then treated a battered woman like this, she's beyond horrible -- and her use of scare quotes now has me wondering if the "stalking" claims are, after all, just a bullshit game on Frankel's part, and not a sincere "fear" for her "safety". (See how nasty those quotation marks are? Exactly.) If you were genuinely terrified (as Frankel "claims") how could you refer to another woman's battery like that? Tinsley ended up with staples in her head. There's no "disputing" that.  And still, Frankel shames her for talking about being abused because it's uncomfortable, as if Tinsley had crossed a line etiquette-wise - all while running (the icing on Frankel's shit cake) a CRISIS INTERVENTION group.  Women of the world: B Wise and stay away from B Strong.

I can see how it would be germane to one's opinion of Bethenny as a person, but how is it germane to the divorce?  She's so insensitive about Tins = she invented stalking charges?  She used the old quotey-quote trick to show that she may not agree that Tinsley's situation was abuse = she invented stalking charges, ie the stalking is mere "stalking"?  I don't see how these things are related.

What am I missing here? (Don't say "brain cells"!).

[film noire]

20 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Even if you feel their crisis is mainly self-inflicted?

Mission statement of B Strong:

"B Strong: Find Your Yes is a crisis intervention initiative that will provide real time emergency assistance to women who face crises on their road to success. It’s for women in abusive situations, women at a crossroads, women in dire straits financially. It’s all about helping these women get the tools they need to manage the situation and achieve the best outcome possible."

Nowhere does it say "Only for perfect women who have never exhibited co-dependent behavior in an abusive situation" (if that's even what Tinsley's story is).

eta

Quote

 One could describe Tinsley as having fought tooth and nail to save a mutually abusive relationship in order to maintain a certain financial and social lifestyle the man could provide her despite him cracking her head open.

Battered women do not participate in their own battery, even if it  may look that way to outsiders. And Frankel, leading a group aiming to help abuse survivors, needs to know that there are no good vs bad battered women.

Edited June 24, 2017 by film noire

[LIMOM]

Bethany's ultimate faults in my eyes is her lack of kindness and her incredible self centered ness.

Imho, this is why she sucks at life.

[film noire]

15 minutes ago, Jel said:

but how is it germane to the divorce?  She's so insensitive about Tins = she invented stalking charges? 

No -- it makes me doubt the validity of her assessment of being stalked,  since she seems incapable of assessing what happened to Tinsley (or even of assessing how inappropriate those scare quotes would look, coming from someone leading up a crisis intervention group for surivivors of abuse). She's always been an unreliable narrator to me, but this -- man, this is a different thing altogether.

Quote

What am I missing here? (Don't say "brain cells"!).

Pffft!  You got plenty of those to spare ; ) 

Edited June 24, 2017 by film noire

[zoeysmom]

3 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Even if you feel their crisis is mainly self-inflicted?

The man had her purse and credit cards, her error was disregarding the police dispatcher she not be on the property when they attempted to retrieve her property. 

I would hope the vandalism of the Range Rover, including smashing the windshield, would not be seen as self inflicted, or the head wounds or the black eye.  His injuries may very well have been an attempt by the Size 2 Tinsley to defend herself from the guy. 

 

5 minutes ago, film noire said:

MIssion statement of B STrong:

"B Strong: Find Your Yes is a crisis intervention initiative that will provide real time emergency assistance to women who face crises on their road to success. It’s for women in abusive situations, women at a crossroads, women in dire straits financially. It’s all about helping these women get the tools they need to manage the situation and achieve the best outcome possible."

Nowhere does it say "Only for perfect women who have never exhibited co-dependent behavior in an abusive situation"

Bravo well said.  I have wondered how relatable it is for these women in financial crisis whose spouse are holding to a pre-nup and depriving the women of shelter and funds feel about Bethenny and her treatment of her ex.  It is okay for me to throw my ex out of the marital home, but not okay for your ex to throw you out.  (I don't think Jason should have stayed in the marital home if for no other reason he could not afford it.) 

Again this is an example of how Bethenny can be such a victim of words but has little regard how her words may hurt.

[QuinnM]

Quote

Bravo well said.  I have wondered how relatable it is for these women in financial crisis whose spouse are holding to a pre-nup and depriving the women of shelter and funds feel about Bethenny and her treatment of her ex.  It is okay for me to throw my ex out of the marital home, but not okay for your ex to throw you out.  (I don't think Jason should have stayed in the marital home if for no other reason he could not afford it.) 

Again this is an example of how Bethenny can be such a victim of words but has little regard how her words may hurt.

So the only person that can help someone is someone else just like them?  I don't see this BStrong as a bad thing.  It is her money but it is the Dress for Success organization that is working with the women.  It is win-win.  How can these words hurt?

"B Strong: Find Your Yes is a crisis intervention initiative that will provide real time emergency assistance to women who face crises on their road to success. It’s for women in abusive situations, women at a crossroads, women in dire straits financially. It’s all about helping these women get the tools they need to manage the situation and achieve the best outcome possible."

[KungFuBunny]

2 hours ago, ZoloftBlob said:

I read this in one of the articles BBHN posted.

If this is the context in which Jason is using "I'll pray for you" - part of a hostile rant about how he's going to extremes, he's going to do as he pleases, and he'll never go away.... Does anyone really think slapping "I'll pray for you" was Jason honestly meaning he was gonna get down on his knees and gently pray to Christ for Betheny's soul, with the milk of human kindness flowing?

I say if because I accept the trial hasn't happened and MAYBE Jason does have these moments where he drops to his knees and prays to Christ for the safety and health of his despised ex wife. But I admit, if this is the context, I somehow doubt that his heart was pure and innocent and he *really meant* that he was intending to head to church and pray for Bethenny.

 

zoloftblob: at the top of the quote box there is a B and an I and then a symbol for strikethru - you might have clicked that symbol instead of the B for bold

If this is the context in which Jason is using "I'll pray for you" - part of a hostile rant about how he's going to extremes, he's going to do as he pleases, and he'll never go away.... Does anyone really think slapping "I'll pray for you" was Jason honestly meaning he was gonna get down on his knees and gently pray to Christ for Betheny's soul, with the milk of human kindness flowing?

I say if because I accept the trial hasn't happened and MAYBE Jason does have these moments where he drops to his knees and prays to Christ for the safety and health of his despised ex wife. But I admit, if this is the context, I somehow doubt that his heart was pure and innocent and he *really meant* that he was intending to head to church and pray for Bethenny.

[film noire]

15 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

I don't see this BStrong as a bad thing. 

What's bad is Bethenny being the face /name of a group set up to help survivors of abuse,  while also degrading Tinsley's abuse by using scare quotes -- that's fucking awful. You can't say you want to help battered women, and then set up a hierarchy/doubt/play othering games by using scare quotes. And since one of the reasons abused women stay silent is people's reactions to them talking about it, saying Tinsley made them uncomfortable was a really nasty thing to throw into the conversation.  

[Martinigirl]

The Tinsley that told Carole she's not ready go out so much? That's all we have seen her do. The same Tinsley who said the arrest was so stupid and not even true.Which one is it? 

[LIMOM]

2 minutes ago, film noire said:

What's bad is Bethenny being the face /name of a group set up to help survivors of abuse,  while also degrading Tinsley's abuse by using scare quotes -- that's fucking awful. You can't say you want to help battered women, and then set up a hierarchy/doubt/play othering games by using scare quotes. And since one of the reasons abused women stay silent is people's reactions to them talking about it, saying Tinsley made them uncomfortable was a really nasty thing to throw into the conversation.  

Exactly. A fucking opportunistic hypocrite.

it is noteworthy that even the name of her foundation is a ripoff.

I wonder if the person who named the foundation is  letting us know. Something ..,

hum, what color are the ubiquitous plastic bracelets going to be?

yellow I presume. ;-)

[film noire]

1 minute ago, LIMOM said:

Exactly. A fucking opportunistic hypocrite.

it is noteworthy that even the name of her foundation is a ripoff.

I wonder if the person who named the foundation is  letting us know. Something ..,

hum, what color are the ubiquitous plastic bracelets going to be?

yellow I presume. ;-)

Good catch, LiMom! (It went completely over my head ; )

[Jel]

42 minutes ago, film noire said:

No -- it makes me doubt the validity of her assessment of being stalked,  since she seems incapable of assessing what happened to Tinsley (or even of assessing how inappropriate those scare quotes would look, coming from someone leading up a crisis intervention group for surivivors of abuse). She's always been an unreliable narrator to me, but this -- man, this is a different thing altogether.

Pffft!  You got plenty of those to spare ; ) 

But you, me, none of us need to assess the validity of her assessment, since outside, disinterested members of the legal system already have.

Charges have been already been filed; the question of is it "charge worthy" has been asked and answered.  Her assessment that she was stalked has been affirmed as correct. For now! Allegedly! Can't tag your butcher back!

I see the potentially shady effect her assessment of Tins's situation might have on her credibility, but for right now, there are some facts on the table that we can't ignore, right? Someone in the CJS, rightly or wrongly (and TBD) thought that yes, the behaviors she described (and her assessment of those behaviors) met the definition of stalking.  At least in that regard, her ability to accurately assess a sitch is not flawed.

[QuinnM]

Quote

What's bad is Bethenny being the face /name of a group set up to help survivors of abuse,  while also degrading Tinsley's abuse by using scare quotes -- that's fucking awful. You can't say you want to help battered women, and then set up a hierarchy/doubt/play othering games by using scare quotes. And since one of the reasons abused women stay silent is people's reactions to them talking about it, saying Tinsley made them uncomfortable was a really nasty thing to throw into the conversation.

Tinsley has the money to get out of the situation.  Tinsley has the money to rent her own place and stop bitching about Sonja's home.  Tinsley has the money to pay an attorney.  Tinsley chooses to do nothing.  Much like Bernadette.  Just let your abuser send your daughter off to boarding school so you don't have to consider her in your drama.  And home for the holidays?  She can go to her friend Terri's house cuz nothing for her here. 

BStrong are funds for women that have limited choices because of their financial resources. 

Bethenny and Oprah have something in common there.  Oprah actually said no more battered women with resources just sitting on my sofa complaining.  And we all know Oprah to be a fucking opportunistic hypocrite, right?

Yeah, I'm not buying it.  It is a good organization and the only one I know of that helps women with cold hard cash that they need to fight for custody, fight for equitable property and fight to be safe.

[LIMOM]

7 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

Tinsley has the money to get out of the situation.  Tinsley has the money to rent her own place and stop bitching about Sonja's home.  Tinsley has the money to pay an attorney.  Tinsley chooses to do nothing.  Much like Bernadette.  Just let your abuser send your daughter off to boarding school so you don't have to consider her in your drama.  And home for the holidays?  She can go to her friend Terri's house cuz nothing for her here. 

BStrong are funds for women that have limited choices because of their financial resources. 

Bethenny and Oprah have something in common there.  Oprah actually said no more battered women with resources just sitting on my sofa complaining.  And we all know Oprah to be a fucking opportunistic hypocrite, right?

Yeah, I'm not buying it.  It is a good organization and the only one I know of that helps women with cold hard cash that they need to fight for custody, fight for equitable property and fight to be safe.

Let's not compare Oprah and Beth, please.

and I would like to know the source of the info.

the only organization helping woman?

surely, not

Edited June 24, 2017 by LIMOM

[Celia Rubenstein]

6 hours ago, film noire said:

MIssion statement of B STrong:

"B Strong: Find Your Yes is a crisis intervention initiative that will provide real time emergency assistance to women who face crises on their road to success. It’s for women in abusive situations, women at a crossroads, women in dire straits financially. It’s all about helping these women get the tools they need to manage the situation and achieve the best outcome possible."

Nowhere does it say "Only for perfect women who have never exhibited co-dependent behavior in an abusive situation"

It seems to me like Bethenny's B Strong initiative is essentially about helping women in crisis. 

Perhaps Bethenny thinks that indulging a healthy, wealthy, young white woman with no children who bills herself out as a socialite and has every means at her disposal to improve her already pretty nice situation will not be "helped" by being encouraged her to view herself as a victim.   Just a guess. 

That's not to say that a woman in Tinsley's situation can't be a victim of domestic violence, of course.  I just suspect Bethenny doesn't see Tinsley as being the type of woman she has created this group to help, thus her failure to include Tinsley under the umbrella of unconditional acceptance it is being suggested that Bethenny owes every other woman who has ever had domestic issues.

 

6 hours ago, zoeysmom said:

I would hope the vandalism of the Range Rover, including smashing the windshield, would not be seen as self inflicted, or the head wounds or the black eye.  

Of course I am not referring to Tinsley's injuries, for goodness sake.  By self-inflicted I mean Tinsley's choice to remain in the situation and her repeated efforts to re-establish a relationship with a man who was kicking the crap out of her when she had it in her power to just walk away.   At some point you DO become responsible for your own choices and any damage you experience is at least arguably partially self-inflicted. 

I hope no one is thinking I am rationalizing or excusing the behavior of men who beat women who choose to stay with them when they have the capacity to leave.  If you hit or kick or abuse someone in any way, that is on you.  But the choice of a woman to stay in a situation like that when she is able to leave is on her.  Ask any cop who has seen a battered woman refuse to press charges and opts to return to her abuser when she has other reasonable options how they feel.  It's frustrating as hell.  There is often a loss of sympathy for the women who make such choices.  And I think Bethenny may feel the same kind of frustration toward Tinsley that cops experience in such cases because she has lived through domestic violence in her own home as a child and seen her mother make some poor choices that are at least superficially comparable to those made by Tinsley and she has no patience for it.  

Certainly the phenomenon of learned helplessness can be at play ... that can't be denied. But reinforcing a woman's perception of herself as a helpless victim when she refuses to exercise options she has available that could keep her safe doesn't do her any good.  

That being said, I am not sure saving Tinsley from her own perception of herself as a victim is among Bethenny's motivations for saying what she said.  I doubt she is that wise or compassionate, lol.  I think it has a lot more to do with how she feels about her own experiences growing up in a home filled with domestic violence.

I certainly don't take her comments on Tinsley's situation to be the hateful, misogynistic thing thing that is being suggested or some kind of failure by her to properly support a fellow victim when she has reservations.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein

[film noire]

3 minutes ago, Jel said:

But you, me, none of us need to assess the validity of her assessment, since outside, disinterested members of the legal system already have.

That's only true if you think the justice system always gets an arrest right, never operates in cover-your-ass mode,  and never uses different rules for different people -- I don't believe that.

[Jel]

1 hour ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

 

I am not sure Bethenny wants to avoid talking about Tinsley's situation because it makes her uncomfortable, at least not for the reason being suggested (which seems to be that she is incapable of seeing another woman as a victim), 

I suspect her discomfort might be because by the issue of Tinsley's own role in the situation with her boyfriend.

While there is little doubt that Tinsley was a victim of physical abuse (we've all see the receipts), it was rumored that she dished out a fair amount of whoop-ass on her boyfriend during those drunken brawls, herself.  And despite his attempts to end their relationship and even moving on with other women,  Tinsley refused to leave him alone (to the point that she was arrested for trespassing).  Between that and the fact that Tinsley certainly had it within her means to leave and be completely free of the situation- she was in no way financially dependent upon him, had no children with the guy - she repeatedly chose to try and force the relationship.  Some say it was because she wanted in on that sugar-money funded, top-wrung Palm Beach lifestyle.  And she didn't prosecute this guy because it would alienate him even further, not because she was powerless or in some kind of fear of him.

I can see how that might make someone like Bethenny ... impatient with the whole thing, shall we say.  I think a lot of people might be.  It can be hard to listen to someone tell what you consider only half the story and omit their own role in what went on.  Or not acknowledge their own unsavory motivation for staying in a bad situation. It's great when one can set aside doubt and judgment and just be supportive.  But there is also a point where that can turn into supporting someone's unhealthy view of their own predicament.  It's a fine line. I'm not suggesting that is Bethenny's motivation for being less than supportive of Tinsley, however.  I think it is because the whole thing is much more personal for her. 

What I mean is, I think it is entirely likely that Tinsley's behavior reminds Bethenny of how her own mother denies the drunken fights she allegedly engaged in with her husband, how she refused to leave him, and won't take responsibility for anything she ever did herself. Lord knows that's been THE sore spot for Bethenny her whole life.  I don't expect Beth to have a whole lot of sympathy for someone she sees as being similar to Bernadette.  

 

You seem to suggest that all women who experience stalking, harassment, violence are obligated to support each other.  I don't think that is a fair expectation at all.  Being an abuse or stalking victim is not some kind of "club" you are automatically enrolled in by virtue of your experience as a victim.  It doesn't require you to adopt a certain viewpoint about the subject in general or about another woman in particular.  

To the extent that we do actually see that kind of automatic support among victims, it is usually the result of one woman identifying with the experiences of another woman.  I don't think Bethenny in any way identifies with Tinsley Mortimer or what she went through.  One could describe Tinsley as having fought tooth and nail to save a mutually abusive relationship in order to maintain a certain financial and social lifestyle the man could provide her despite him cracking her head open. Bethenny, on the other hand, probably sees herself as a self-made, totally independent millionaire who dumped her husband for simply not treating her right and then had his ass arrested when he wouldn't back off.  I can see why she feels they have nothing in common and has no inclination to automatically support Tinsley just because they've both had trouble with the man in their lives. 

 

 I am not sure why what heading the offense Jason is charged with falls under matters. What difference does it make? 

Celia Rubenstein, your arguments just blow me away. 

[LIMOM]

3 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

It seems to me like Bethenny's B Strong initiative is essentially about helping women in crisis. 

Perhaps Bethenny thinks that indulging a healthy, wealthy, young white woman with no children who bills herself out as a socialite and has every means at her disposal to improve her already pretty nice situation will not be "helped" by being encouraged her to view herself as a victim.   Just a guess. 

That's not to say that a woman in Tinsley's situation can't be a victim of domestic violence, of course.  I just suspect Bethenny doesn't see Tinsley as being the type of woman she has created this group to help, thus her failure to include Tinsley under the umbrella of unconditional acceptance it is being suggested that Bethenny owes every other woman who has ever had domestic issues.

 

Of course I am not referring to Tinsley's injuries, for goodness sake.  By self-inflicted I mean Tinsley's choice to remain in the situation and her repeated efforts to re-establish a relationship with a man who was kicking the crap out of her when she had it in her power to just walk away.   At some point you DO become responsible for your own choices and any damage you experience is at least arguably partially self-inflicted. 

I hope no one is thinking I am rationalizing or excusing the behavior of men who beat women who choose to stay with them when they have the capacity to leave.  If you hit or kick or abuse someone in any way, that is on you.  But the choice of a woman to stay in a situation like that when she is able to leave is on her.  Ask any cop who has seen a battered woman refuse to press charges and opts to return to her abuser when she has other reasonable options how they feel.  It's frustrating as hell.  There is often a loss of sympathy for the women who make such choices. Certainly the phenomenon of learned helplessness can be at play ... that can't be denied. But reinforcing a woman's perception of herself as a helpless victim when she refuses to exercise options she has available that could keep her safe doesn't do her any good.  

That being said, I am not sure saving Tinsley from her own perception of herself as a victim is among Bethenny's motivations for saying what she said.  I doubt she is that wise or compassionate, lol.  I think it has a lot more to do with how she feels about her own experiences growing up in a home filled with domestic violence.

I certainly don't take her comments on Tinsley's situation to be the hateful, misogynistic thing thing that is being suggested or some kind of failure by her to properly support a fellow victim when she has reservations.

Honestly, it is too early to assess.

in anycase, it gives me a poor taste in my mouth that she would help only economically challenged women.

Like she wants to be their savior but whatever.  Such arrogance.

We all have our causes.

Let see where it goes 

[Celia Rubenstein]

32 minutes ago, film noire said:

What's bad is Bethenny being the face /name of a group set up to help survivors of abuse,  while also degrading Tinsley's abuse by using scare quotes -- that's fucking awful. You can't say you want to help battered women, and then set up a hierarchy/doubt/play othering games by using scare quotes. And since one of the reasons abused women stay silent is people's reactions to them talking about it, saying Tinsley made them uncomfortable was a really nasty thing to throw into the conversation.  

It's strangely funny to me to hear it suggested that Bethenny is obligated to accept everything Tinsley says without question on the principle that she has asserted she is a victim and ought to be believed, yet when posters here accept Bethenny's allegations of Jason stalking her at face value on the principle that she is a victim and ought to be believed, they get shot down.  

Or do I already know the answer ... everything Bethenny says is a lie, she set up a charity and has forfeited her right to express her opinion, the cops arrest innocent people all the time ... ?  

Edited June 24, 2017 by Celia Rubenstein
to add another reason why Bethenny is being held to a different standard

[ZoloftBlob]

I have to admit, I was wondering that as well, Celia.

I personally am willing to give Jason the benefit of the doubt until this trial goes down because... I wasn't there. But technically, we're never supposed to disregard the victim or call the victim out....

[Jel]

2 minutes ago, film noire said:

That's only true if you think the justice system always gets an arrest right, never operates in cover-your-ass mode,  and never uses different rules for different people -- I don't believe that.

Ok, I will concede that point: It is true that the CJS does not always (I think a lot, but not always) get it right and so these charges could be trumped up or trivial , if you will agree that if Jason is found guilty, it's possible that he is actually guilty.  

And, I will split my popsicle with you. 

5 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

It's strangely funny to me to hear it suggested that Bethenny is obligated to accept everything Tinsley says without question on the principle that she has asserted she is a victim and ought to be believed, yet when posters here accept Bethenny's allegations of Jason stalking her at face value on the principle that she is a victim and ought to be believed, they get shot down.  

Or do I already know the answer ... everything Bethenny says is a lie, she set up a charity and has forfeited her right to express her opinion, the cops arrest innocent people all the time ... ?  

I believe that meets the technical definition of "Oh, snap!".

[film noire]

8 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

Tinsley has the money to get out of the situation.  Tinsley has the money to rent her own place and stop bitching about Sonja's home. 

Tinsley's resources have nothing to do with Bethenny dismissing/questioning/othering Tinsley's abuse with scare quotes. That was out of bounds for any figurehead of a group trying to help abused women.  Calling Tinsley's abuse into question feeds into the narrative abused women fear will come here way - the very same women Bethenny says she wants to help (rich or poor) -- you can't help them if you think there are abused women, and "abused" women. (Never mind that Tinsley's behavior is not exotic for an abuse victim.) 

[Celia Rubenstein]

8 minutes ago, ZoloftBlob said:

I have to admit, I was wondering that as well, Celia.

... technically, we're never supposed to disregard the victim or call the victim out....

... unless the victim is Bethenny, apparently.

[QuinnM]

Quote

Let's not compare Oprah and Beth, please.

and I would like to know the source of the info.

the only organization helping woman?

surely, not

Oprah - said it on her show.  I work from home and it was on every day.  One of the last was actually the wife of one of the Trump nominees and she released that tape just this year.

I know someone that needed this kind of help.  There were legal volunteers.  The people at the shelter to help guide etc.  There was no money.  It is something that Dress For Success suggested to Bethenny when she asked what she could do. 

I hope no one ever has to find out what happens when you leave in your pajamas with your children in the middle of the night.  You have limited options.  It is a long struggle.  Surely not?  Yes, in fact there are times they will tell you to wait a week unless you think he's going to kill you since they don't have space.  And for everyone that thinks there are these safety nets all over the place, volunteer.  There is Dress for Success, Ready for Success and Harriet Tubman in my area.  Then there are the people that take in your children why you find housing.  Saints, every one of them.  They feed and cloth them.  They have you over for dinner and soothe them when you leave to go back to the shelter.  God help you if you need an attorney to get goods from your home, relief from harrassment, etc.

To belittle the impact of what she is doing because you don't like her is the height of entitlement.  I'll guarantee you that not one of the women that receives from this foundation will have a cross word to say about her.

[film noire]

26 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

 Bethenny is obligated to accept everything Tinsley says without question on the principle that she has asserted she is a victim and ought to be believed

Have you read the story linked several pages back? Because Tinsley's abuse has been documented in photographs, hospital visits and multiple police reports (four IIRC).  Completely different situation. 

22 minutes ago, Jel said:

Ok, I will concede that point: It is true that the CJS does not always (I think a lot, but not always) get it right and so these charges could be trumped up or trivial , if you will agree that if Jason is found guilty, it's possible that he is actually guilty.  

Sure - I've already said that several times - he could be every inch the gaslighting monster she's claiming he is.

Quote

I believe that meets the technical definition of "Oh, snap!".

No, the technical definition is fruit salad; comparing NYC Housewife apples to oranges :)

Edited June 24, 2017 by film noire

[WireWrap]

21 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

It seems to me like Bethenny's B Strong initiative is essentially about helping women in crisis. 

Perhaps Bethenny thinks that indulging a healthy, wealthy, young white woman with no children who bills herself out as a socialite and has every means at her disposal to improve her already pretty nice situation will not be "helped" by being encouraged her to view herself as a victim.   Just a guess. 

That's not to say that a woman in Tinsley's situation can't be a victim of domestic violence, of course.  I just suspect Bethenny doesn't see Tinsley as being the type of woman she has created this group to help, thus her failure to include Tinsley under the umbrella of unconditional acceptance it is being suggested that Bethenny owes every other woman who has ever had domestic issues.

 

Of course I am not referring to Tinsley's injuries, for goodness sake.  By self-inflicted I mean Tinsley's choice to remain in the situation and her repeated efforts to re-establish a relationship with a man who was kicking the crap out of her when she had it in her power to just walk away.   At some point you DO become responsible for your own choices and any damage you experience is at least arguably partially self-inflicted. 

I hope no one is thinking I am rationalizing or excusing the behavior of men who beat women who choose to stay with them when they have the capacity to leave.  If you hit or kick or abuse someone in any way, that is on you.  But the choice of a woman to stay in a situation like that when she is able to leave is on her.  Ask any cop who has seen a battered woman refuse to press charges and opts to return to her abuser when she has other reasonable options how they feel.  It's frustrating as hell.  There is often a loss of sympathy for the women who make such choices. Certainly the phenomenon of learned helplessness can be at play ... that can't be denied. But reinforcing a woman's perception of herself as a helpless victim when she refuses to exercise options she has available that could keep her safe doesn't do her any good.  

That being said, I am not sure saving Tinsley from her own perception of herself as a victim is among Bethenny's motivations for saying what she said.  I doubt she is that wise or compassionate, lol.  I think it has a lot more to do with how she feels about her own experiences growing up in a home filled with domestic violence.

I certainly don't take her comments on Tinsley's situation to be the hateful, misogynistic thing thing that is being suggested or some kind of failure by her to properly support a fellow victim when she has reservations.

A person's wealth doesn't negate what happened to them not does it mean they are emotionally able to leave their abuser any easier. Also, it is not uncommon for an abuse victim to return to the abuser, it is more the norm than not.

12 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

It's strangely funny to me to hear it suggested that Bethenny is obligated to accept everything Tinsley says without question on the principle that she has asserted she is a victim and ought to be believed, yet when posters here accept Bethenny's allegations of Jason stalking her at face value on the principle that she is a victim and ought to be believed, they get shot down.  

Or do I already know the answer ... everything Bethenny says is a lie, she set up a charity and has forfeited her right to express her opinion, the cops arrest innocent people all the time ... ?  

None of us know Tinsley well enough to give her the side eye like we do Bethenny. So far, Tinsley hasn't exaggerated anything let alone exaggerate almost everything like Bethenny does and has done for years. IMO, it is because of what Bethenny has shown us for years that many question her truthfulness about Jason. And, many of us are waiting to see/hear both sides of this because of her overwhelming addiction/habit of blowing everything out of proportion. I, myself, believe the truth lies somewhere between Bethenny's "truth" and Jason's soon to be told "truth", which means that more than likely, both are at fault, equally at fault. But, we will not know the whole story until later this coming week.

[lunastartron]

55 minutes ago, film noire said:

Tinsley's resources have nothing to do with Bethenny dismissing/questioning/othering Tinsley's abuse with scare quotes. That was out of bounds for any figurehead of a group trying to help abused women.  Calling Tinsley's abuse into question feeds into the narrative abused women fear will come here way - the very same women Bethenny says she wants to help (rich or poor) -- you can't help them if you think there are abused women, and "abused" women. (Never mind that Tinsley's behavior is not exotic for an abuse victim.) 

This all gets rather circular. The suggestion that monetary resources avail you of escape routes/therapy/educations discounts and demeans the tumult, violence, and instability to which you were exposed decades prior. But those same monetary resources mean you are culpable for the domestic abuse you suffer because of whatever mental/psychoemotional health issues impel you to stay in an violent romantic relationship (yet, simultaneously, emotional abuse that you suffered as a child is completely salient and exculapatory vis a vis  the viciousness and malice with which you treat others in the present day - it even means you are perennially a victim yourself, even as you giggle about near-fatal eating disorders, mock the tears of others, and express how uncomfortable it makes you to hear about the struggles of your coworkers because you don't know them that well except when you know them well enough to devolve into hysterics over being served sushi because, your divorce or fantasize about how their hair reminds you of your mother).

 

Likewise, a history of embellishment, exaggeration, and out-and-out shifting accounts about particular incidents in your own biography and self-mythology are totally non-germane to your credibility. 

In fact, they're completely analogous to hospital reports, documented staples in the head, and police corroboration of iPhone videos depicting your boyfriend keying your car, ripping off the windshield wipers, and breaking the windshield while you're inside.

But characterizing the above as "abuse" with scare quotes simultaneously has no bearing on one's ability to credibly assess a situation. 

Edited June 24, 2017 by lunastartron

[film noire]

48 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Perhaps Bethenny thinks that indulging a healthy, wealthy, young white woman with no children who bills herself out as a socialite and has every means at her disposal to improve her already pretty nice situation will not be "helped" by being encouraged her to view herself as a victim.

Frankel refraining from scare quoting Tinsley's abuse is not the equivalent of indulging Tinsley in victimhood. It's the opposite; questioning whether Tinsley was a victim at all.

Quote

 At some point you DO become responsible for your own choices and any damage you experience is at least arguably partially self-inflicted. 

Being unable to leave, and seeking out the batterer over and over, is part of the cycle of abuse battered women experience. We know that after decades of studying abuse and victims -- we know that, period -- it is not a moral failure or "on her" that she didn't leave earlier -- or in a more perfect way --  that's part of what abuse does to its victims. Paralyzes them, teaches them love is linked to fists or verbal abuse (or both) convinces them they must return to receive forgiveness for something the batterer did *to them* (not the other way around) and leaves them fearful they will be judged for not handling it all like the final triumphant reel of a Lifetime movie.

Edited June 24, 2017 by film noire

[BBHN]

Quote

I can see how it would be germane to one's opinion of Bethenny as a person, but how is it germane to the divorce?  

It isn't, it's just a way to steer the conversation away from Jason praying for Bethenny's death while asking about her life insurance policy...and the stalking and harassment charges...wait, he was arrested for stalking and harassment?

Quote

It's strangely funny to me to hear it suggested that Bethenny is obligated to accept everything Tinsley says without question on the principle that she has asserted she is a victim and ought to be believed, yet when posters here accept Bethenny's allegations of Jason stalking her at face value on the principle that she is a victim and ought to be believed, they get shot down.  

 

Quote

I believe that meets the technical definition of "Oh, snap!".

[film noire]

1 hour ago, Jel said:

Celia Rubenstein, your arguments just blow me away. 

You agree with Celia that Tinsley is complicit in the abuse? 

[KungFuBunny]

Why is Super Douche sporting nail polish?

[Jel]

At some point you do become responsible for your choices -- abused women know that and that's why they seek out shelters.  I see that acknowledgment of responsibility as an empowering and positive event in a DV survivor's life.  

[QuinnM]

Quote

It isn't, it's just a way to steer the conversation away from Jason praying for Bethenny's death while asking about her life insurance policy...and the stalking and harassment charges...wait, he was arrested for stalking and harassment?

A life insurance policy that is required in a custody agreement is much like the homeowner's policy that is required by your mortgage company.  Any changes or lapses in the policy are reported to the other party.  He received a copy at the time the agreement was signed and he would be notified by the insurance company if she missed payments or changed any portion or canceled the policy.  So asking for it was a dick move.

[BBHN]

Quote

Why is Super Douche sporting nail polish?

Maybe he plans on developing SkinnyGuy Nail Polish?

I mean...why not? ;)

Edited June 24, 2017 by BBHN

[zoeysmom]

2 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

Why is Super Douche sporting nail polish?

Gosh maybe the story that ran with the photo would have answered the mystery:   http://www.eonline.com/news/562542/bethenny-frankel-s-ex-jason-hoppy-sports-bright-pink-nail-polish-while-strolling-in-nyc-see-the-pic  Sounds to me like the people at E1 may be on to something. 

[Celia Rubenstein]

11 minutes ago, film noire said:

Being unable to leave, and seeking out the batterer over and over, is part of the cycle of abuse battered women experience. We know that after decades of studying abuse and victims -- we know that, period -- it is not a moral failure or "on her" that she didn't leave earlier -- or in a more perfect way --  that's part of what abuse does to its victims. Paralyzes them, teaches them love is linked to fists or verbal abuse (or both) convinces them they must return to receive forgiveness for something the batterer did *to them* (not the other way around) and leaves them fearful they will be judged for not handling it all like the final triumphant reel of a Lifetime movie.

You are describing the classical scenario of an abused wife.  It's tragic and happens all too often.  But one must admit that it is possible that this was not the case with Tinsley.

Without delving too far into rumor (rumors I am guessing that Bethenny as a person who frequents south Florida, knows all about), suffice it to say that many people viewed Tinsley's attempts to try and win back this abusive guy to have zero to do with the kind of thing you are talking about - being paralyzed, thinking love means being hit, etc. - and that her choice to be with him was more a function of her wanting to be with an incredibly wealthy, younger, socially well-connected man no matter how he treated her so that she could regain her former status as a social "it" girl.  When he wanted to end things with her, she wouldn't let go. It is no secret that some say she was the instigator to many of their drunken physical fights.  Of course that doesn't excuse a man putting his hands on her, in no way shape or form.  No one should have the injuries Tinsley sustained inflicted on them.  But as far as Tinsley being the kind of powerless victim lost in an emotional storm unable to figure out she needs to escape or how to do it should she want to, a lot of people weren't buyin' it.

I suspect Bethenny might be among their numbers.

 

49 minutes ago, film noire said:

Have you read the story linked several pages back? Because Tinsley's abuse has been documented in photographs, hospital visits and multiple police reports (four IIRC).  Completely different situation. 

I thought suggesting there are abused women and then there are "abused women," was wrong.  

At any rate, I am just glad Bethenny put a stop to what was going on in her situation before she ended up with staples in her head.  Stalking may not be under the statutory heading of domestic abuse, but it is definitely abusive behavior.  The sooner the nipped in the bud, the better! 

 

5 minutes ago, Jel said:

At some point you do become responsible for your choices -- abused women know that and that's why they seek out shelters.  I see that acknowledgment of responsibility as an empowering and positive event in a DV survivor's life.  

AMEN! 

[KungFuBunny]

6 minutes ago, BBHN said:

Maybe he plans on developing SkinnyGuy Nail Polish?

I mean...why not? ;)

One slight correction

Maybe he plans on developing SkinnyStalkerGuy Nail Polish?

[zoeysmom]

3 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

A life insurance policy that is required in a custody agreement is much like the homeowner's policy that is required by your mortgage company.  Any changes or lapses in the policy are reported to the other party.  He received a copy at the time the agreement was signed and he would be notified by the insurance company if she missed payments or changed any portion or canceled the policy.  So asking for it was a dick move.

I believe that notifying a beneficiary of a life insurance policy and continuing coverage and payments of premiums continuing policy in the exception rather than the rule.  Life insurance is a little different it doesn't take much to add or delete beneficiaries. The only time a life insurance company is required to notify is in the event of the insured trying to change an irrevocable beneficiary without the beneficiary's permission.   Life insurance companies certainly don't notify beneficiaries if the have been dropped or other parties added.  Their duty is to the policy holder and normal confidentially laws apply. If a party to a divorce let alone a big bad business mogul can't handle asked to provide court ordered proof of insurance, without suffering substantial harm, she has issue way outside the  reach of the court.

[lunastartron]

22 minutes ago, film noire said:

You agree with Celia that Tinsley is complicit in the abuse? 

Don't you know? It's the victim's responsibility in a domestic violence paradigm to fix the situation. 

[Celia Rubenstein]

5 minutes ago, lunastartron said:

Don't you know? It's the victim's responsibility in a domestic violence paradigm to fix the situation. 

 

C'mon ... that's ridiculous and no one has said anything of the sort.

[QuinnM]

Quote

I believe that notifying a beneficiary of a life insurance policy and continuing coverage and payments of premiums continuing policy in the exception rather than the rule.  Life insurance is a little different it doesn't take much to add or delete beneficiaries

Not if it is required by agreement.  Both of the instances I know of have that clause.  It's pretty standard in those high end divorces.  So it shouldn't be assumed that poor helpless Jason was so worried about Bethenny that he needed personal reassurance.  I mean we know he doesn't have a pot to pee in so it's not like he wants to hire a lawyer.  Oh wait he ended up having to do just that.

[film noire]

24 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

and that her choice to be with him was more a function of her wanting to be with an incredibly wealthy, younger, socially well-connected man no matter how he treated her so that she could regain her former status as a social "it" girl.  When he wanted to end things with her, she wouldn't let go. 

 

But even based on any south Florida rumor mongers -- people saying Tinsley endured (or more sickeningly) sought out abuse in exchange for money and status-- that's the abused wife/girlfriend scenario, in a nutshell. Hanging on to him at any price, trying to make him love you again -- even as he hits you --  that's a classic pattern many abused women follow.

Quote

I thought suggesting there are abused women and then there are "abused women," was wrong.  

Bethenny's claims have not been proven yet; if they had been, and Tinsley referred to her as being "stalked" that would be the same creepy erasure.

Edited June 24, 2017 by film noire

[BBHN]

Quote

C'mon ... that's ridiculous and no one has said anything of the sort.

No, they haven't.

Quote

Maybe he plans on developing SkinnyStalkerGuy Nail Polish?

He could launch a whole StalkerGuy empire just to spite Bethenny lol

[Jel]

25 minutes ago, film noire said:

You agree with Celia that Tinsley is complicit in the abuse? 

I don't think that's what Celia said at all.  I see a big difference between saying someone is complicit in the abuse and acknowledging that at some point, a woman must reclaim her power and find the courage to leave, which is more along the lines of what Celia was saying I think.  I find that view is far more empowering.

For the record, you will literally never find me supporting or condoning or excusing abusers.   If anything, I tend to err on the side of the woman making the claim (Bethenny v. Jason case in point!)  It took me a back a little to even be asked a question like that to be honest!  

[film noire]

32 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

Why is Super Douche sporting nail polish?

I dunno -- same reason Bethenny wore her four year old daughter's pajamas? :)