Tywin Lannister: He Does Not Shit Gold

[Conan Troutman]

Can't hate him, because he (read: Charles Dance)'s so awesome. Probably my favorite villain in this story. There's only one thing I'd like to ask him:

 

Why? What for?

[CletusMusashi]

I agree. He's the most awesome of the bad guys. 

Cersei tends toward as much pettiness as planning. Roose tries, and does pretty well with the cards he's dealt, but still feels like a poor man's Tywin. Littlefinger spends all day lecturing Sansa about how clever it was of him to hide in the bushes and talk Joffrey into attacking the butcher boy. Balon's infrastructure makes no fucking sense. ("We consider farming and trade to be unmanly, but we'll happily risk our lives pirating in order to pay taxes to keep some bitter old prune in a humungous castle.") And from there it's all downhill. Ramsay, Thorne, Slynt, Hound of the Week, Melisandre, Bald Cannibal Chief... put every single third-banana villain together and maybe the entire lot of them could make the scene half as interesting as Tywin being mildly sarcastic to someone.

It's not just that he's well written. It's not just that he's well acted. it's that the good acting so often focuses on restraint, charisma, and/or a degree of pragmatism that often makes him the one who appears to be playing "good cop." So then, when he turns around and shows that, no, he has not suddenly turned into Mr. Nice Guy, I may not be surprised intellectually, but on an emotional level... yeah, kinda. Every time the thought crosses anyone's mind that maybe, just maybe, if there was some kind of do-over, maybe Tywin would not have Tyrion's wife gang-raped by Lannister soldiers... it's like Charlie Brown trying to kick that stupid football.

You want proof of how brilliantly evil Tywin is? He named his most interesting kid Tyrion. So that, just in case someday there was some kind of story about the Lannisters, we would all constantly be typing things like "I think Tywin was a very cruel father to Tywin-" and then having to go back and correct it, over and over and over. I mean, that kind of torture takes way more thought than just killing a pet or chopping a dick off. The man's a fucking artist.

[WalterWhiteWalker]

Why? What for?

 

Dynasty.

[Constantinople]

If your choices for continuing the Lannister name were

 

• Jaime
• An alcoholic whoremongering spendthrift, or
• Lancel
   

You'd opt for Jaime too.

[Lady S.]

Tywin's extreme bias on the matter of his sons, to the point of blaming Tyrion for the late Lady Lannister's demise just as Cersei does, is why I think he's overrated as a pragmatic gameplayer. Roose really should be more warm-blooded where Ramsay is concerned, but I appreciate that his cold-bloodedness is consistent. Tywin is played perfectly by Dance though, I always enjoy watching him, and greatly prefer his Tywin to reading the character on the page.

 

His portrayal really is amazing given how many people buy into the "good cop" shit he's selling. People always focus on his compliments to cupbearer Arya and ignore that he left her in the hands of the Mountain after she was no longer useful to him. Gregor, the same guy who was indiscriminately torturing and killing all the captives, captives including Arya and her friends, when Tywin first met her. If Arya hadn't escaped with Gendry and Hot Pie, they'd likely all have been killed with all the other prisoners seen in 3.01 (perhaps in a fit of rage after being defeated by Edmure Tully, of all people?). Gregor is an uncontrollable violent thug, which is why Tywin first set him loose in the riverlands, I doubt he expected a happy ending when he left Harrenhal. Tywin disposed of a servant he liked well enough, had Tyrion's first wife gang-raped, and said the well-being of Tyrion's second wife should not be a concern, he didn't even disagree with Tyrion that consummating the marriage would be rape, just reminded him it was his duty to House Lannister. Tywin talks about killing a dozen men at dinner (really killing some at dinner and a few thousand celebrating outside the castle) vs. killing thousands on both sides in further battles to justify his sanction of the Red Wedding, but I believe he valued peace (in the war he admits to starting) solely for the sake of order and strengthening House Lannister with a decisive victory. It's not that he cares about the loss of non-Lannister blood (they're all just sheep to a lion) but that the loss of further lives in a lengthy war is plain inefficient. Tywin is Lawful Evil behind the guise of a "good" cop, but it's a damn good disguise.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

It is amazing how fast he lost his concern for wasting useful manpower when he thought the wolfs bane at the back of Ser Amory Lorch's neck was intended for him.

I wonder if the empty Lannister gold mines made Tywin have even fewer scruples than he otherwise would over the Red Wedding.

[Conan Troutman]

Dynasty.

 

Is that even true? Maybe he thinks it is, but I'm not buying (t)his shit.

 

To steal from another show: "I did it for me. I liked it. I was good at it. And, I was really... I was alive."

So who is Tywin Lannister?

 

Edit: Before anybody beats me to the pun: He is the one who knocks....

Edited May 30, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Holmbo]

Totaly agree Lady S.

I'm not even buying that he does what he does for his family. I just think he enjoys the power and wants people to remember him as the one who established a dynasty that lasted for thousands of years.

He is a great character though. I hope the show will give a bit more details about his back story.

The books doesn't tell much but what they tell is very interesting.

[BlackberryJam]

I find Charles Dance has an appreciation of slowness you rarely see in actors.  So much of movies and TV shows are fast-paced fight and chase scenes.  Walking across the Throne Room with a deliberate measured pace..  Making each step count, each step was acting.  Then when he speaks, his every word is calculated.  There is no impulse in Tywin Lannister.  Charles Dance owns that role.

 

I love him and want him on my screen forever.

[Lady S.]

Totaly agree Lady S.

I'm not even buying that he does what he does for his family. I just think he enjoys the power and wants people to remember him as the one who established a dynasty that lasted for thousands of years.

I think he does it for his idea of his family. He doesn't particularly like who his children actually are, but he likes who they could be, so he never stops trying to mold them into worthy heirs. Or trying to make the wonderfuck twins worthy. Tyrion is trapped by Tywin's expectations in a different way, his father decided long ago he was an ill made, stunted fool unworthy of love, so Tyrion became the alcoholic whoremonger we know today, drowning his sorrows, paying women to be with him, deflecting with humor, and forever disappointing Tywin in one way or another. Tywin probably does quite enjoy the power, crushing his enemies, and knowing he's a BAMF who can scare the shit out of people with the sound of his theme song, and his descendents are necessities to create a legacy to make him live on after death, but his son and legal heir for the past 20 years was someone he never wanted to be remembered in the Lannister legacy. But he never killed Tyrion when he could, he always kept him in Lannister gold, and suffered this curse of humility by watching the son he thought of as a "creature" "waddle about" representing the lions. That's what counts as selflessness with Tywin. And he was generous enough not to try to pack Tyrion off to the Wall before he was accused of regicide, that's better than Sam Tarly's father did. But then the gang rape of Tyrion's first wife pushes Tywin ahead in the Worst Fathers of Westeros competition, though I'm sure Tywin saw this "lesson" for Tyrion as strictly for his own good, and therefore a necessary measure, just like all the other hard tasks Tywin just had to order, whether he wanted to or not.

 

I find Charles Dance has an appreciation of slowness you rarely see in actors.  So much of movies and TV shows are fast-paced fight and chase scenes.  Walking across the Throne Room with a deliberate measured pace..  Making each step count, each step was acting.  Then when he speaks, his every word is calculated.  There is no impulse in Tywin Lannister.  Charles Dance owns that role.

 

I love him and want him on my screen forever.

This reminds me of the Tywin/Joffrey scene in 3.07. Gleeson was my other favorite actor on the show, and ever since Tywin took his place at court, I was looking forward to a good scene between the two of them. The way Tywin slowly climbed up to the throne as Joffrey's expression changed, then when he left and added the "Your Grace" after a long pause, the actual rest of the dialogue didn't

even matter, those two could have speaking gibberish and the scene probably wouldn't have lost anything.

 

Has anyone here seen the original BBC House of Cards series? I've been watching on Netflix for comparison, and I like to imagine Tywin and his dearly departed wife were something like the colder, British Mr. and Mrs FU.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

Has anyone here seen the original BBC House of Cards series? I've been watching on Netflix for comparison, and I like to imagine Tywin and his dearly departed wife were something like the colder, British Mr. and Mrs FU.

 

You might think that.  I couldn't possibly comment

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

I think LIttlefinger is much closer to FU in motivation than Tywin.  For that matter, the very fact that FU can have a parliamentary career at his age indicates that, though rich and privileged, he's not part of the top tier of the nobility.  Also -- (British) House of Card's spoiler --

FU's use of Mattie Storin to shape public discourse, his seduction of her and even the means by which he killed her, are very close to Littlefinger's treatment of Lysa.

 

I can't say if the late Lady Lannister is comparable to Mrs. FU.  If she is, she'd have to be utterly ruthless in service to legacy, even more so than Tywin.

 

Caveat: It's been a while, so I'm comparing from memory.

[Conan Troutman]

So I guess we need a new thread title.

 

I'll throw in "Tywin Lannister: The big dead" and "Tywin Lannister: A shitty father".

 

Anyway, when I die, I hope I'm not getting killed on the shitter by my dwarf son with a crossbow after he discovered I was fucking his whore.
Although at the very least that would make for a great game of "Clue".

Edited June 16, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[Lady S.]

It's just too bad Robb Stark died before finding that Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.

 

Congrats on the great legacy, Tywin.

[Conan Troutman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gi9-ajBA4IU

[Colored Francie]

Confession: I was kinda pleased to see that - although his choice of lover was absolutely fucked up - Tywin still had an interest in "horizontal refreshments" as they called them in America's Civil War. I found Charles Dance's Tywin pretty sexy.

 

Anyhoo, he always went on and on about his legacy, I wondered why he never re-married and had more children to be disappointed by, and I think the romantic in me wanted to believe that it's because he adored his wife and was heartbroken over her death, never wanting to be with another woman.

 

It does make me wonder if Shae was the first woman he got with in Kings Landing. Who else could he choose? Maybe a noblewoman. But probably not a servant girl - too likely to be a spy. Same for any of Littlefinger's ladies. 

[Lady S.]

I think he never remarried out of both love for his wife and fear of producing another defective Lannister, but the former was probably greater, I doubt he'd give up sex altogether if his wife survived. Or maybe he just didn't want to marry anyone else, and told himself he was being safe by not producing more defective possible heirs to justify why his decision was best for House Lannister. That sounds about right since Tywin always wanted to believe he only did what was best for his family, despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

Sounds like Show Tywin was Hand to Aerys after Lady Lannister died (which means he served as Hand closer to 10 years than 20, Tyrion), I bet he had ways to secretly get laid back in his day before Littlefinger came to town. I doubt very much that Shae was his first sexual partner in 30something years. In the books Varys

once mentions he found out that a Hand to a previous King had a secret passage built into a brothel so no one would ever see him entering or leaving it.

[Holmbo]

So I guess we need a new thread title.

 

I'll throw in "Tywin Lannister: The big dead" and "Tywin Lannister: A shitty father".

 

Well as a book reader I feel that the title works very well regarding his death. (internal joke made by Tyrion in the book, putting it in spoiler just to be super considerate, no spoiler though)

But the stink that filled the privy gave ample evidence that the oft-repeated jape about his father was just another lie. Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold.

[Catherinewriter]

Conan, re your much earlier "I was good at it." It's Walter White, of course.

[Conan Troutman]

Yes, Tywin reminds me of him. Like WW, doing it for the family (legacy/name) seems to be more an excuse than anything else. Of course he wanted to secure the future of his family (and his own legacy), but not at the cost of making the slightest concession to any family member. Both were power hungry and bitter, and their utter disregard of the personal wishes of family members eventually completely ruined their relationship with them.

[Lady S.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L-S3xUlkQ4

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2014 at 6:14 PM, Lady S. said:

This reminds me of the Tywin/Joffrey scene in 3.07. Gleeson was my other favorite actor on the show, and ever since Tywin took his place at court, I was looking forward to a good scene between the two of them. The way Tywin slowly climbed up to the throne as Joffrey's expression changed, then when he left and added the "Your Grace" after a long pause, the actual rest of the dialogue didn't

even matter, those two could have speaking gibberish and the scene probably wouldn't have lost anything.

This quote is two years ago, but I just watched a one hour "Best of Tywin Lannister" video, and that scene is fresh in my mind.  The scene was so amazing because Joffrey was actually making sense.  He's worried that Dany has three dragons, and Tywin is completely dismissive of the threat.  Then Joffrey complains that he's the king and needs to be informed and consulted.  Tywin replies, "From now on, I will see to it that you are appropriately consulted on important matters . . . . . whenever necessary."  He then walks away without being dismissed, and IMO, actually dismisses Joffrey with the long pause, followed by "Your Grace".  It's just masterful.

Then another favorite scene of Tywin smacking Joffrey around:  Joffrey is screeching in front of the small council that he is the king. Tywin interrupts to tell him that a man who has to say he's the king, "is no true king".  Joffrey is enraged and tells Tywin that Robert won the real war while Tywin hid at Casterly Rock.  Everyone on the council is shocked and silent, but Tywin calmly announces that Joffrey is tired, and orders Cersei to take him to his chambers.  Cersei takes his hand and is leading Joffrey away, where he clearly doesn't want to go.  To reinforce to Joffrey that Tywin is in control, Tywin suggests that Pycelle administer some essence of night shade to assist Joffrey in sleeping.  Joffrey spins around sputtering and almost unable to spit out the words, manages to say:  "I'm - not - TIRED!", which makes him totally look like a toddler fighting his nap.  I would almost feel sorry for Joffrey if I wasn't laughing.

I think the irony is Tywin always made it absolutely clear that his children and their children were weak and ineffectual, and as a result his death took away whatever fear and respect the Lannister name had.  He actually set them up to be over thrown upon his death.  So much for your legacy big guy.

[Eyes High]

2 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I think the irony is Tywin always made it absolutely clear that his children and their children were weak and ineffectual, and as a result his death took away whatever fear and respect the Lannister name had.  He actually set them up to be over thrown upon his death.  So much for your legacy big guy.

To be fair to Tywin, his children's favourite go-to tactic when they were in trouble was to try to bribe their way out of it by referencing Tywin's wealth and power or to try to threaten their way out of it by invoking the fear of Tywin's wrath. For all Tyrion's supposed intellectual superiority to Jaime, when push came to shove Tyrion and Jaime beat the same "Just wait until my father hears of this!" drum pretty loudly. That doesn't exactly lend itself to Tywin's kids burnishing their own reputations.

[nodorothyparker]

When your father has his own theme song about extinguishing two entire houses for individual members crossing him, it's much faster and easier to reference that than to mess around trying to outfight or outmaneuver an opponent yourself.  In a world where family name is everything and Tywin is always going on about the family legacy, it's not really hard to see why the kids would constantly invoke "my father."  Twyin never really seems to discourage it, but in not doing so, he set them up for the struggles they each have trying to find their own power after his death.

Edited May 19, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[RedheadZombie]

20 hours ago, Eyes High said:

To be fair to Tywin, his children's favourite go-to tactic when they were in trouble was to try to bribe their way out of it by referencing Tywin's wealth and power or to try to threaten their way out of it by invoking the fear of Tywin's wrath. For all Tyrion's supposed intellectual superiority to Jaime, when push came to shove Tyrion and Jaime beat the same "Just wait until my father hears of this!" drum pretty loudly. That doesn't exactly lend itself to Tywin's kids burnishing their own reputations.

I understand what you're saying, but Tywin never made any attempt, as far as I ever saw, to teach his children anything at all.  He liked that they couldn't or wouldn't stand up to him.  Tyrion was as brilliant as Tywin, but Tywin did nothing but belittle him.   Even Cersei was more clever than Jaime in politics, but Tywin saw little use for her other than a beautiful woman with a fertile uterus he could trade politically.  Tyrion and Cersei would probably have done almost anything for his approval, but he was always so blinded by his insistence that Jaime was his most valuable and worthy child.

I think the ultimate proof of Tywin's disinterest in his children was his being the last person in King's Landing to know his children had been carrying on an incestuous affair since their teens, and all the queen's children were bastards.  That was an incredibly dangerous fact that he couldn't bother to know.  Even little Bran figured it out (well, not the bastard part).

I started this show after Joffrey's death, and slowly caught up, but I haven't really seen season two.  On that Tywin Lannister video, I was shocked by how likable he was with Arya.  When he immediately notices she's a girl and orders her to his chambers, I couldn't help but worry that he had perverted intentions.  Yet he seemed fascinated by her, and so curious about her background.  He was clearly protecting her and even allowed her to speak her mind and eat what food was left over from his plate.  I'm sure Cersei was a bright and curious child (as well as motherless), but I imagine he never gave this attention to her.  He complimented Arya many times - "clever girl", and seemed to really enjoy her company.  Yet as pointed out upthread, he ultimately abandoned her to the Mountain.

He did show interest in helping Tommen to be a good king.  I remember it was immediately following Joffrey's death, and Cersei thought it was poor timing.  Tywin was quizzing Tommen about what makes a good king, and instead of just riding roughshod all over him, he guided Tommen through the thought process.  I'm sure he would have done what Cersei ultimately did - isolate Tommen and rule in his stead, but it was such a contrast from the way Tywin treated Joffrey.  It made me wonder if Tywin ever bothered with Myrcella.

And Tywin's treatment of Arya and Tommen, as well as his conflicted feelings about Jaime make Tywin a superior villain.  I find villains like Tywin so much more chilling that purely evil villains like Ramsay.  The knowledge that they do evil deeds by choice and know they're doing wrong versus a psychopath with no conscious doing what comes naturally.  The former is far more frightening, in my opinion.

[Lady S.]

9 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I started this show after Joffrey's death, and slowly caught up, but I haven't really seen season two.  On that Tywin Lannister video, I was shocked by how likable he was with Arya.  When he immediately notices she's a girl and orders her to his chambers, I couldn't help but worry that he had perverted intentions.  Yet he seemed fascinated by her, and so curious about her background.  He was clearly protecting her and even allowed her to speak her mind and eat what food was left over from his plate.  I'm sure Cersei was a bright and curious child (as well as motherless), but I imagine he never gave this attention to her.  He complimented Arya many times - "clever girl", and seemed to really enjoy her company.  Yet as pointed out upthread, he ultimately abandoned her to the Mountain.

I remember at one point he told Arya she reminded him of Cersei, so maybe he had suppressed affection for Cersei that he would never actually display to her face and he preferred to use strangers as an outlet for that. Even with Jaime, in their few scenes together there was always a critical chill. I doubt he ever gave as much positive reinforcement to Jaime personally as the praise he'd extol on Jaime in front of Tyrion trying to play his kids against each other.

[Oscirus]

I think he was nice to Tommen because Tommen was king and he was sick of serving idiot kings.  So why not train them earlier?

Edited May 20, 2016 by Oscirus

[nodorothyparker]

It also doesn't serve his legacy any for both of his grandsons to be have been idiot kings who flamed out early.  Tommen's his only real shot until he can get his kids in line to marry and reproduce where he wants and here's his change to build a good king almost from the ground up.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎5‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 3:08 AM, Oscirus said:

I think he was nice to Tommen because Tommen was king and he was sick of serving idiot kings.  So why not train them earlier?

But Joffrey and Tommen were the heir and spare from birth.  Robert was very hands-off and I don't see him caring that Tywin was mentoring his kids, and certainly Cersei wouldn't have interfered. Tywin should have started much earlier with these kids.  I don't think Tywin even tried with Joffrey, and as crazy and sadistic as that kid was, he wasn't incapable of learning.  Therefore it was interesting to me that he seemed to be teaching Tommen to use his intelligence and thought process, rather than just bullying and intimidating him.  The way he spoke to Tommen reminded me of the way he spoke to Arya.  He was engaged, interested in who he was talking to, patient, and even gentle.  This wasn't the Tywin who ignores you while you're sweating and waiting for his attention.  Not the guy who only makes eye contact to glare and frighten.  Not the guy who cuts you off every time you open your mouth and dictates what you will do.  It doesn't make him a great guy, but I think it was the best that he was capable of.

I actually find it interesting that Tywin didn't kill Joffrey to pave the way for Tommen.  Tywin had no illusions regarding Joffrey.  Cersei could no longer control him, and while Tywin was able to intimidate and over-rule Joffrey, he wasn't going to live forever.  For someone so obsessed with his legacy, I'm sure it occurred to him that Joffrey was an unpopular, ineffective, and weak king, and Tommen had to be better.  Even simply as a figurehead.  And after watching first hand how the Mad King brought down the Targaryens, it's surprising he didn't take the matter into his own hands.  He certainly held no affection for Joffrey.  And while I realize he hated Tyrion and allowed him to live, I don't think Tyrion's very existence was a threat, whereas Joffrey's was.

[Ambrosefolly]

On May 22, 2016 at 5:10 PM, RedheadZombie said:

But Joffrey and Tommen were the heir and spare from birth.  Robert was very hands-off and I don't see him caring that Tywin was mentoring his kids, and certainly Cersei wouldn't have interfered. Tywin should have started much earlier with these kids.  I don't think Tywin even tried with Joffrey, and as crazy and sadistic as that kid was, he wasn't incapable of learning.  Therefore it was interesting to me that he seemed to be teaching Tommen to use his intelligence and thought process, rather than just bullying and intimidating him.  The way he spoke to Tommen reminded me of the way he spoke to Arya.  He was engaged, interested in who he was talking to, patient, and even gentle.  This wasn't the Tywin who ignores you while you're sweating and waiting for his attention.  Not the guy who only makes eye contact to glare and frighten.  Not the guy who cuts you off every time you open your mouth and dictates what you will do.  It doesn't make him a great guy, but I think it was the best that he was capable of.

I actually find it interesting that Tywin didn't kill Joffrey to pave the way for Tommen.  Tywin had no illusions regarding Joffrey.  Cersei could no longer control him, and while Tywin was able to intimidate and over-rule Joffrey, he wasn't going to live forever.  For someone so obsessed with his legacy, I'm sure it occurred to him that Joffrey was an unpopular, ineffective, and weak king, and Tommen had to be better.  Even simply as a figurehead.  And after watching first hand how the Mad King brought down the Targaryens, it's surprising he didn't take the matter into his own hands.  He certainly held no affection for Joffrey.  And while I realize he hated Tyrion and allowed him to live, I don't think Tyrion's very existence was a threat, whereas Joffrey's was.

He didn't kill Tyrion, who he hated, so I am not surprised he didn't kill Joffrey, who for the most part agrees with his worldview. It might not be prevalent on the show, but kinslaying is as detestable as breaking the Guest Right's in the books and is also an affront to the gods. While Tywin had no real issue with that (though he made sure that the Freys and Boltons got a majority of the blame) I think killing his own grandson would be a step too far, even for him. I think like Cersei, he made up an image of himself as protective patriarch, even though he saw his own offspring as extensions of himself, so he would never do the deed himself or order, but of course as angry as he initially might have been with someone taking a hit out on his family, he probably loved it that the more malleable Tommen was put in Joffrey's place while, with Tyrion being sent to the Wall and Jaime finally becoming his heir .