Past Seasons Talk: Before We Traded a Cop for an Assassin, a Psycho Hacker and The Machine's Evil Twin

[IndependentMind]

Ugh, for one glorious second I was hoping they'd actually kill the congressman! Now that would have been a great twist that would increase my respect for the show tenfold. It would actually make me like Reese much more than I do, although I've still really liked him in the last two episodes, compared to the rest of the season.

I just really, really hate it when good guys don't have the guts to do something gray and then have to endure the consequences. It could work if the choice was just Finch's, but not when Reese and Shaw were there. I guess they did it for Finch, but still, a stupid decision.

Also, why didn't the Machine give the number to Root? She'd have to know how moral Finch is, while Root is a character who'd do the Machine's will without any hang-ups.

You will find out in the season 3 finale of the consequence of not killing the Senator.

 

All this is happening because of Finch. Finch who has been avoiding facing what his creation has caused. In season 4, Finch will be in dilema. He is again running away and pretty much surrendering to Samaritan while his team are telling him to fight. JN mentioned that Finch will struggle with this throughout the season.

[FurryFury]

I hope there will be some real growth in Finch's character as the result of all of this. Throughout the show, he's the one who changed the least, usually just providing the sounding board/incentive for the others' development. Yeah, I agree that he has been avoiding the true consequences of the Machine's existence while focusing on saving the "irrelevants", which is nice, but ultimately not that important compared to being the creator of a massive AI that has access to an unthinkable amount of data. I mean, this thing could change the world as we know it forever. And Finch's just saving people, one at a time. There's definitely something going on here - partly his fear of his own God complex, partly maybe something else.

[IndependentMind]

I hope there will be some real growth in Finch's character as the result of all of this. Throughout the show, he's the one who changed the least, usually just providing the sounding board/incentive for the others' development. Yeah, I agree that he has been avoiding the true consequences of the Machine's existence while focusing on saving the "irrelevants", which is nice, but ultimately not that important compared to being the creator of a massive AI that has access to an unthinkable amount of data. I mean, this thing could change the world as we know it forever. And Finch's just saving people, one at a time. There's definitely something going on here - partly his fear of his own God complex, partly maybe something else.

Part of that fear is because I think the Machine has evolved and grown in a way I don't think he even realized. And you never know, maybe in the end, he turns out to be the villain.

 

That is the reason the Machine recruited Root because the Machine knows that Root will risk her life. If the Machine told her to go in there with 10 guys in the room with guns she would. Whereas, Reese and Shaw won't. The Machine also knows that Reese and Shaw would listen to whatever Finch tells them to do, Root won't. 

 

He admonishes Root for her recklessness but Root does the things he refuses to do. And it's probably why Shaw finds her fun. And loves working with her. LOL

Edited September 17, 2014 by IndependentMind

[stealinghome]

I've always found persuasive the thesis that The Machine didn't send Root to kill the congressman precisely because it wasn't sure what it wanted to do, and giving the number to Finch, Reese, and Shaw was its way of asking for help/advice. It seems to me The Machine was stuck--the congressman wasn't a Relevant Number terrorist, and it couldn't/didn't want to just put a hit out on him, but he also wasn't a normal Irrelevant, either, really. So it asked Harold for help the only way it could--giving him the number, making him make the call, and learning from his response.

 

I hope there will be some real growth in Finch's character as the result of all of this.

This I do agree with. I find Finch to be easily the most compelling character after Root, but it's a compelling where I often want to shake him and be like "STOP STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND!" (Of course, that's probably the genesis of some of why he's interesting.) So I'm really, really looking forward to S4 and how he's (hopefully) forced to no longer be able to ignore or be in denial about the things that are inconvenient for him and the consequences of choices he's made/hasn't made. And really that's part of the reason why I enjoy his relationship with Root so much--she, far more than John or Shaw, will call him out on his ish and force him to confront things he doesn't want to confront. (Shaw has some potential in this area but too often it's framed as "Harold is obviously right and Shaw is obviously wrong" in a way that flattens potential conflict there.)

 

but I do think she's starting to care about her team.  She still disparages them but the tone has changed.

Yeah, a great example is Root talking to Shaw and Reese at the beginning of 'Death Benefit,' when she whisks Shaw away on a not-date. I always chuckle when she calls John "Lurch" because there's definitely some affection lurking in her tone, and it's such a contrast to how she refers to him earlier in the show, when there's nothing but scorn to be had. And he's definitely mellower toward her now, too--though he'll never trust or like her (with good reason!).

 

Actually, I find the Root-Reese dynamic to be really interesting, because in some respects they're total opposites, and yet they have some real similarities in basic personality type (Reese dated Jessica for what, six months, and then didn't get over her for literally a decade; adolescent Root's best friend got murdered and she tormented the woman who was fundamentally an accomplice for what, probably twenty years, if not more; they both are True Believer-type personalities and seem to need to have a cause on a deeper, fundamental level than Finch or Shaw). And yet, I like that they don't like each other and probably never will. So I'd be game to see them work together more in S4. (Plus, honestly, I think Reese comes alive around people he doesn't like in a way he doesn't come alive around Finch or Shaw!)

[FurryFury]

I've always found persuasive the thesis that The Machine didn't send Root to kill the congressman precisely because it wasn't sure what it wanted to do, and giving the number to Finch, Reese, and Shaw was its way of asking for help/advice.

 

Ooh, I love this idea. Although, the Samaritan launch is such an important and dangerous event... would it trust that much to Finch and the team? I'm not sure. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Machine's very survival depended on that.

 

This I do agree with. I find Finch to be easily the most compelling character after Root, but it's a compelling where I often want to shake him and be like "STOP STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND!" (Of course, that's probably the genesis of some of why he's interesting.) So I'm really, really looking forward to S4 and how he's (hopefully) forced to no longer be able to ignore or be in denial about the things that are inconvenient for him and the consequences of choices he's made/hasn't made.

 

You just read my thoughts. There's a line after you just can't continue to avoid dealing with things anymore, and Finch has crossed it. I'm a tiny bit afraid the show won't allow him to go too far, though. I mean, back in s1, they didn't even show if Reese killed that serial rapist who was tied and at his mercy, there was just a black screen. I think there's a bit of a standard when it comes to good guys not killing. We weren't even shown Reese performing any outright bad deeds in his flashbacks.

[IndependentMind]

I've always found persuasive the thesis that The Machine didn't send Root to kill the congressman precisely because it wasn't sure what it wanted to do, and giving the number to Finch, Reese, and Shaw was its way of asking for help/advice. It seems to me The Machine was stuck--the congressman wasn't a Relevant Number terrorist, and it couldn't/didn't want to just put a hit out on him, but he also wasn't a normal Irrelevant, either, really. So it asked Harold for help the only way it could--giving him the number, making him make the call, and learning from his response.

 

 

Just like in "Root Path" where Root had to decide whether to save Cyrus or get the hard drive.

 

 

This I do agree with. I find Finch to be easily the most compelling character after Root, but it's a compelling where I often want to shake him and be like "STOP STICKING YOUR HEAD IN THE SAND!" (Of course, that's probably the genesis of some of why he's interesting.) So I'm really, really looking forward to S4 and how he's (hopefully) forced to no longer be able to ignore or be in denial about the things that are inconvenient for him and the consequences of choices he's made/hasn't made. And really that's part of the reason why I enjoy his relationship with Root so much--she, far more than John or Shaw, will call him out on his ish and force him to confront things he doesn't want to confront. (Shaw has some potential in this area but too often it's framed as "Harold is obviously right and Shaw is obviously wrong" in a way that flattens potential conflict there.)

I have a feeling that one of the members of the team will be captured by Samaritan and this will force Finch to do something about fighting back.

 

Yeah, a great example is Root talking to Shaw and Reese at the beginning of 'Death Benefit,' when she whisks Shaw away on a not-date. I always chuckle when she calls John "Lurch" because there's definitely some affection lurking in her tone, and it's such a contrast to how she refers to him earlier in the show, when there's nothing but scorn to be had. And he's definitely mellower toward her now, too--though he'll never trust or like her (with good reason!).

Actually, I find the Root-Reese dynamic to be really interesting, because in some respects they're total opposites, and yet they have some real similarities in basic personality type (Reese dated Jessica for what, six months, and then didn't get over her for literally a decade; adolescent Root's best friend got murdered and she tormented the woman who was fundamentally an accomplice for what, probably twenty years, if not more; they both are True Believer-type personalities and seem to need to have a cause on a deeper, fundamental level than Finch or Shaw). And yet, I like that they don't like each other and probably never will. So I'd be game to see them work together more in S4. (Plus, honestly, I think Reese comes alive around people he doesn't like in a way he doesn't come alive around Finch or Shaw!)

Yes, I have noticed that her tone has changed when she is talking to Reese. It's more playful. 

 

And just like you I am hoping for more Reese/Root working together. I just find them stunning together. hehe. 

 

I'm a SHOOT shipper but darn, that season 3 gag reel with Jim and Amy, and Jim going "I want you baby." had Roose shipping written all over it. LOL. I felt I have betrayed and abandoned my SHOOT ship.

 

 

 

[immortalfrieza]

Ooh, I love this idea. Although, the Samaritan launch is such an important and dangerous event... would it trust that much to Finch and the team? I'm not sure. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the Machine's very survival depended on that.

Both the Congressman episode and as IndependentMind mentioned the incident in "Root Path" are among many instances on this show that are piling up to make me seriously question whether The Machine ever actually even wanted to stop Samaritan from being brought online in the first place or allowed it or even assisted in it for some sort of plan. With it's capabilities and the resources it has access to The Machine should have been more than capable of stopping Samaritan from coming online long before it got to the "Root Path" or Congressman situations rather easily.

 

That, and as the thread I made on here specifically for it shows I seem to be under a near constant barrage of fridge logic at this point about The Machine when it comes to it's outright refusal to talk to anyone but Root for any reason even anonymously despite there being no reason actually given so far as for why it doesn't, especially in situations like the aforementioned episodes where if it wanted to stop Samaritan coming online talking to someone, ANYONE else besides just Root would have been a necessity.

Edited September 17, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[IndependentMind]

Both the Congressman episode and as IndependentMind mentioned the incident in "Root Path" are among many instances on this show that are piling up to make me seriously question whether The Machine ever actually even wanted to stop Samaritan from being brought online in the first place or allowed it or even assisted in it for some sort of plan. With it's capabilities and the resources it has access to The Machine should have been more than capable of stopping Samaritan from coming online long before it got to the "Root Path" or Congressman situations rather easily.

I think in the end, we will find out that they are all just pawn for the Machine. And that all along, she is just using all of them and only to get rid of them in the end. In my mind that is how it will end.

 

Finch will realized that and he will kill the Machine and only for the Machine to hire someone to kill him. 

[immortalfrieza]

Maybe that's how it will end, but I'd prefer it didn't, as that's about a cliched a plotline The Machine could possibly have. One of the things I like about The Machine is it isn't nor does it show any sign of being that typical "KILL HUMANS!" that most A.I. in fiction tend to eventually become if they aren't already.

Edited September 17, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[IndependentMind]

Maybe that's how it will end, but I'd prefer it didn't, as that's about a cliched a plotline The Machine could possibly have. One of the things I like about The Machine is it isn't nor does it show any sign of being that typical "KILL HUMANS!" that most A.I. in fiction tend to eventually become if they aren't already.

It will be very interesting how JN and GP will end the series. Although they continue to say each of the member of the team has its expiration date.

[bros402]

I think that the Machine allowed Samaritan to go live just to see how it functioned as an AI - the Machine might learn something from how it functions to better itself.

 

I wonder if Root's team that she gathered over last season will return again. They were fun.

[tessaray]

 

With it's capabilities and the resources it has access to The Machine should have been more than capable of stopping Samaritan from coming online long before it got to the "Root Path" or Congressman situations rather easily.

 

Just curious, do we know that for sure?  I assumed that the development of Samaritan was done offline just for that reason.By the time it was too late to hide it, it was too late to stop it.  And a second AI might not have looked threatening to the Machine until it put the pieces together with the motivations of the people who built it. 

[immortalfrieza]

Just curious, do we know that for sure?  I assumed that the development of Samaritan was done offline just for that reason.By the time it was too late to hide it, it was too late to stop it.  And a second AI might not have looked threatening to the Machine until it put the pieces together with the motivations of the people who built it. 

For one, just informing the team that the fake bank teller was tricking them or otherwise stopping her would have prevented Decima from ever getting it's hands on Samaritan's chip and thus they would have had to start from scratch. For another, in "Root Path" making arrangements to ensure Root wouldn't be stuck between the choice of stopping the bad guys or saving the POI and thus would have allowed them to stop Decima would have set Decima back months and would have opened more opportunities to delay them further. That's just off the top of my head.

 

Even if for some reason The Machine wouldn't or couldn't use Team Machine to accomplish these things it's plugged into every computer system, every camera, and every form of communication in the world that isn't completely closed off, so almost all of them, and it's able to hack anything it has assess to. Plus it's designed specifically to predict things before they happen, which means it can predict the actions of people as well. In fact, with all these capabilities and probably more I'm forgetting I'd say it's impossible for Decima to have ever succeeded in bringing Samaritan online or at anything else for that matter unless The Machine wanted them to.

Edited September 19, 2014 by immortalfrieza

[IndependentMind]

I think that the Machine allowed Samaritan to go live just to see how it functioned as an AI - the Machine might learn something from how it functions to better itself.

 

I wonder if Root's team that she gathered over last season will return again. They were fun.

Yes I adore the Nerd Squad too.

 

I read somewhere the actor who plays Jason has a new gig so I don't know if they will return. But I think Amy was asked about that and she hopes so and that they were fun. 

[FurryFury]

This was a terrific finale! Wow. The end was just chillingly powerful. First impressions:

 

- I really hope that the change is the status quo will prove lasting, and that the formula will, as a result, be very different. Because, let's be clear, it's high time to get rid of it. I think I could stand a few moderately interesting stand-alone episodes per season, but not so many. I actually suspect PoI would have been a much different (and better) show if it had less episodes per season. Otherwise we get stuff like "Last Call", which just kills momentum.

 

- I really liked Collier (I do have a fondness for Fallen Hero / Well Intentioned Extremist tropes), and I'll be hoping he survived despite being shot in the chest twice. He has a really great motivation to fight Greer/Decima, and would probably want to atone/take revenge.

 

- Speaking about other villains, surprisingly, Greer turned to be a male (and older) Root, at least when it comes to motivation. I hope it will be discussed at length in s4, because they need some scenes between the two of them, pronto. Generally, I liked that all villains had conviction and believed in their goals (and those goals were actually understandable and not that crazy - the problem was means they used to reach them... But then, I guess whether the ends justify the means is the main theme of the show). On the other hand, I wouldn't be opposed to having a recurring villain of another kind, too - a trickster/free agent with a much more pragmatic purpose. Not enough of these.

 

- Shaw saving Root at the data server was awesome and heartwarming, but they are kinda laying too thick on the LesYay. Far too many shows have been ruined by queerbating.

 

- I'm doubling on my hope that Finch will get some development in s4, because him willing to die to save Control and the other people who were far from blameless was a bit too much. Although I guess part of it was him wanting to die and/or ease his consciousness by confessing about the Machine.

Edited September 19, 2014 by FurryFury

[stealinghome]

On the other hand, I wouldn't be opposed to having a recurring villain of another kind, too - a trickster/free agent with a much more pragmatic purpose.

I suspect the mysterious voice from "Last Call" may recur in that capacity, or at least was intended to. The problem is, "Last Call" was so bad that I'm totally uninterested in him/her.

[FurryFury]

Yeah, I'm kinda hoping they've scratched this idea after the episode turned out to be unpopular (hopefully, as I've no idea about its reception, but it sucked ass).

[IndependentMind]

I suspect the mysterious voice from "Last Call" may recur in that capacity, or at least was intended to. The problem is, "Last Call" was so bad that I'm totally uninterested in him/her.

I think it will. And I wonder if it has anything to do with Samaritan. I didn't it was as bad as 4C. Sorry, as much as I love JC, I was bored to death with that episode..

[DEM]

FurryFury, it's funny you mentioned Last Call in the context of having fewer episodes per season.  Last year, someone at the dearly departed TWoP worked out that Last Call would have been written right around the time CBS asked for an additional episode. If it was in fact the 'extra episode', that would account for how ill-fitting it was.

 

On Shaw/Root: I didn't mind the rescue at the Samaritan site for two reasons. 1) It was a nice bookend to S2's finale when Root was all about antagonising Team Machine, and Shaw's mission was to hunt her down (and shoot her not in the kneecap).  2) Having Shaw there demonstrated that Root can't single-handedly save the world, so to speak.  In addition, I'm one of those rare people who doesn't believe that just because ROOT flirts, that means that SHAW is/should be interested.  That said, the one-sided flirting every. single. time they are together is getting tiresome.  Last year around mid-season I was intrigued by the possibility of them willingly working together by season's end because that much crazy could be a wild ride. Sadly, their partnership didn't quite meet my expectations.

Edited September 20, 2014 by DEM

[IndependentMind]

This is what I have to say about Shaw and Root. Root knows everything about Shaw and she would not be flirting with Shaw if she wasn't interested or Shaw doesn't swing that way. And from the clip we saw for the season 4 premiere, there is something different about their relationship. Meaning that she is not irritated with Root or she wants to kill her anymore, it's just different. 

 

I think Root will be working closely with Harold more this season. And Root will probably be working on her own too. 

[FurryFury]

I simply don't believe the show will ever go there in regards to Root/Shaw, because it's not really interested in showing romance (which I completely understand, it doesn't seem to be one of the writers' strengths). That's why I feel they are going overboard. 

 

As for Root's sexuality, I strongly believe she's not interested in men and women, at least. I simply can't imagine her in a romantic relationship. I do like their frenemy vibe that slowly transforms into something resembling friendship, but, like DEM, I probably expected a bit more development and depth there. At this point, I'm even more interested in Root/Reese, because it's probably the Team Machine relationship that has been given the least screen time.

 

didn't it was as bad as 4C. Sorry, as much as I love JC, I was bored to death with that episode.

 

As boring as 4C was, at least it was about something. It was about Reese and his development after Carter's death. It was very predictable and cliched, but still better that a complete and forgettable filler that was Last Call. A true dark spot on a pretty great season of TV.

Edited September 20, 2014 by FurryFury

[stealinghome]

I think the ending scene between Reese and Finch really makes 4C for me. It's such a lovely little scene, and imo, it's why Last Call doesn't even come close to 4C. Last Call had nothing nearly so touching (or at least not that I remember...which means it can't have been that emotionally satisfying!). I think maybe also with Last Call I knew they weren't going to kill a kid off, so immediately there was just no tension to the plot (not that they were going to blow up a plane either in 4C, but you know what I mean--the point of 4C was the journey, whereas in Last Call, that wasn't the case).

 

I simply don't believe the show will ever go there in regards to Root/Shaw, because it's not really interested in showing romance (which I completely understand, it doesn't seem to be one of the writers' strengths). That's why I feel they are going overboard.

I actually don't know that I think the show will never go there. Granted, I'm shipping it hard, so this may well be wishful thinking talking!--but, since the Root character seems clearly to have an expiration date, I wouldn't put it past the writers to pull another Carter/Reese and have something happen with Shaw/Root basically right before Root gets killed off.* I can't agree that Root isn't truly interested, though. She might by and large not be all that interested in people, but she pretty much reads to me like she'd be DTF the moment Shaw says "go."

 

*Also, Shahi talked about the Root/Shaw flirtation a lot at SDCC, which I'm not quite sure how to interpret.

[Camera One]

I had to look up what happened in those episodes.  I actually liked "4C".  I thought it was fun.  The string of episodes after Carter's death really bored me, and in some ways "4C" actually brought me back to caring about the show because I could care about Reese.  I couldn't care less about Control and the various factions.

 

"Last Call" was alright.  But the episode before it was even weaker.  

 

I don't think this show actually wants to do romance, so I don't "ship" anyone.  I don't want Reese and Shaw together.  I do think Shaw and Root bantering is fun.  

Edited September 23, 2014 by Camera One

[Abstract]

Oops, wrong thread.

Edited September 25, 2014 by Abstract

[Trillium]

Watching the first three seasons over a 6 weeks span I had a few observations.

1. There are only 7 characters from S1 still alive. Reese, Finch, Fusco, Root, Elias, Scarface and Zoe. Yet the change in cast wasn't super abrupt. I'll compare it to House where the beginning of season 4 had so any new characters all of a sudden it was distracting to me. On POI they weaved characters in and out pretty seamlessly.

2. This is probably a very unpopular opinion, but Cater was probably my least favorite of the original four mains. That's not to say at all that I didn't like her or TPH did a bad job. I just liked her less than the others. Sometimes it seemed that the didnt quite know what to do with her. She certainally had some amazing moments like in the prison interrogation and the bringing Dow of HR. But there were a lot of times she was kind of boring. I'm not bothered in the least by them deciding to kill off Carter. Killing a main character isn't an original idea but they are playing a very dangerous game and her death highlighted what's at stake. It made for some if the best work this how has ever done. But I like shows that anything can happen. Even to the main characters. I get that type story telling isn't for everyone and I do respect that.

3. The Reese/Carter kiss came out of freaking nowhere to me and now that I see it wasn't scripted I hate it even more. It just comes off as pandering to shippers before te snuck said ship so they could be all "I was right!" I wih they would have left it out. I still could have totally bought Reese's grief without it. One of the thins that I like most about this show is they don't resort to overplayed romantic melodrama. Romance is pretty much a non factor which is nice. Well there is Grace and Harold's/ Reese and Jessica backstory which is minmal and adds to the story, and Reese and Zoe is all tell and no show with their special friend status. Speaking of, I wish Zoe wills be on more, and am sad to hear she might not be availible at all this season. She's the character is most like to be. She's just fun.

4. To me the show isn't too sci-fi at all. If Facebook can recognize my friends and Google knows where I am, they government sure as hell can figure that out too. I think it's a show that deals with extremely timely topics. The S3 finally both Collier and Control had very valid points. I appeicate the show doesn't act a though government surveillance is a good thing. It shows the team struggling with the info, what they do and how try get their info.

Edited because my phone sucks with the autocorrect.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Trillium

[GodsBeloved]

This is probably a very unpopular opinion, but Cater was probably my least favorite of the original four mains

 

Carter got plenty of hate so I doubt your stance is that unpopular

[Trillium]

Carter got plenty of hate so I doubt your stance is that unpopular

Hey now. No hate here. It's like you have 4 friends. You like them all, just someone has to be your least favorite. It really wasn't something I was conscious of until she died. I was quite sad and miss her but I would have missed Reese, Finch and Fusco more.

[FurryFury]

I think I only started to really like Carter at the end of s2/start of s3, when she took a sharp turn and became an anti-hero. Her freeing Elias was an interesting twist that, I felt, wasn't fully explored. But yeah, I definitely agree that it was time for her to go and I wasn't that upset with her death. And I hate that kiss. It really came out of nowhere.

[GodsBeloved]

Hey now. No hate here. It's like you have 4 friends. You like them all, just someone has to be your least favorite. It really wasn't something I was conscious of until she died. I was quite sad and miss her but I would have missed Reese, Finch and Fusco more.

Sorry I wasn't trying to say that you hated Carter :) ... just that Carter being at the bottom of the totem poll(for whatever reason) isn't something I think is an UO. I mean Carter got ripped for turning Reese into Snow. I never saw those rips give her credit for letting Reese go once she saw what Snow was about. Compare that to Fusco, who tried to murder Reese twice. If Fusco was ever ripped for that, I never saw it.

 

Carter and Reese shared the top spot with me. Fusco next and Finch last.

Edited October 1, 2014 by GodsBeloved

[stealinghome]

As we're now at the mid-season mark for S4, I thought it might be a good time to step back and evaluate the season as a whole thus far.

 

Overall, I would give it somewhere between a B and B+. With the exception of last season's Carter trilogy (because really, how were you gonna top that?), I think it's been stronger than the first half of season 3, even though--like other PoI seasons--it took a few episodes to click (this season didn't really start firing on all cylinders until Prophets). But with that said, given the brilliance of 3B, I was expecting more from 4A. I do expect the back half to be a wild ride--4A has set that up well--but still, I can't help being a little disappointed in the first half of this season.

 

Best episode: Prophets. Honorable mentions to (in order) The Cold War*, Point of Origin, and The Devil You Know, but Prophets was on another level as a standalone episode. And Root and Martine's dual-level shootout was just a gorgeous piece of cinematography.

*=The Cold War could overtake Prophets, but I think it hinges on the rest of the trilogy for me. It's so obviously Part 1 of 3.

 

Worst episode: Brotherhood, and it's not even close. None of the other episodes this season have even approached the same level of unwatchable-ness.

 

Best plot twists: Finch talking to The Machine at the end of Prophets (can't wait to learn more about this!); Shaw's cover being blown so quickly; Scarface's death, while predictable, was nevertheless very well done and sets up the second half of the season on the crime front nicely; The Machine and Samaritan talking via Root and the little kid, coming face-to-face so soon into the cold war as it escalates into hot.

 

Best addition to the cast: Cara Buono as Martine. She's killing it as the blond Terminator (no pun intended!).

 

Biggest misstep: I still don't find the Brotherhood that compelling--I've been intrigued by them in exactly one episode, Point of Origin, thus far. All the other eps have been very blah. Even their "wins" are partial losses (really, when you have three men trapped in a building and outnumber them like 8 to 1, you should be able to kill them all), the writers are telling more than they're showing (though this may change), and I still don't see Dominic taking out Elias. It doesn't help that I find the guy playing Link more charismatic than the guy playing Dominic--which, admittedly, may be the point, as it's pretty clear Link is going to turn on Dominic somewhere down the road, which might well help to make the group more compelling--and I'm kind of over the Nolans' obsession with nihilism as if it's some revolutionary new idea. More involvement from Elias is always welcome, but we could have had more Elias without needing to introduce the Brotherhood...or making them so flat. If we're keeping Dominic around, give him more to do, like in Point of Origin, instead of endless monologuing.

 

I'm also really glad the writers dropped the "Reese is the WORST COP EVER" schtick like 4-5 episodes into the season. It just was not working on any level, so that was a course correction I appreciated. Reese has worked much better when his cop cover has basically been incidental to the plot. I do wonder if the show has just outgrown the cop side of things--not the Number stuff, of course, but the cop stuff. By all means keep Fusco around, Kevin Chapman is fabulous in the role, but the cop angle just doesn't seem necessary anymore without Carter.

 

Biggest surprise: I've honestly been surprised at how FUNNY the show has been this season--it seems like there's been a concerted effort to lighten the tone. Wingman and Pretenders were both comedy-heavy, and I don't know that I remember the last time the show had two screwball comedy-type episodes in such close proximity. Plus they've been playing the team's day job thing for laughs as much as possible.

 

Second biggest surprise is that Shaw's cover was burned just 8 episodes into the season (though if Sarah Shahi is pregnant, as the rumors flying around are rumoring, that partially explains it as a way to work around the pregnancy).

 

MVP of the first half: This is hard, because the show feels like a true ensemble show right now and each character has had their moment to shine, but I'm giving it to Finch. His story is still the one narratively propelling the show and I'm so, so intrigued by his shadow mastermind doings--I've been waiting for a while to see Finch unleashed. We've already seen several different facets of his personality come out to play, and I'm really hoping we get even more. He's primed to have a really, really interesting back half, depending on how dark the writers want to take him (I'd LOVE to see them take him pretty dark--and have it be The Machine, with an assist from John, that reels him back!). I do deduct some points for still being so self-righteous about not offing the senator in Death Benefit, but still. But really, I pretty much could have given this to any of the core 4, Fusco, The Machine/Samaritan, or Elias.

[FurryFury]

I've finally got around to watching the first half of season 4. I'm 4 episodes in currently, and I have to say, I'm definitely underwhelmed. I loved the last half of s3, but a part of me doubted the show would manage to maintain this momentum (thus my decision to forgo weekly watch for binging), and it seems that I was right. Which sucks.

 

Anyway, my biggest complaint is the regression to the crime storylines (and not even compelling crime storylines!). I can't believe we go from such an epic and intense plot (Samaritan and the US government) to... drug trade? Really, show? We are supposed to consider this Dominic guy a major threat? Are you kidding me?

 

The only good thing about this "back to roots" approach is the resurgence of Elias, whom I can't help but love, mostly due to Enrico Colantoni's performance. He's probably the only character that makes Reese interesting at this point. His relationships with Shaw and Finch feel static, and he didn't have any scenes with Root (although I still think that Root could make him interesting, the way she makes everyone around her interesting simply by virtue of being such a unique character).

 

Of course, it's kinda early to make any serious conclusions, but so far, I'm not impressed.

Edited December 27, 2014 by FurryFury

[johntfs]

I doubt it'll happen any time soon, but I'd like to see an episode with Root interacting with Elias.

[stealinghome]

Yes! I really want to see Root and Shaw meet Elias. I feel like it would be hilarious(ly awesome)--and it must be inevitable, right, if they're going to bring the Samaritan and Elias vs the Brotherhood plots together?

 

FurryFury, I think Season 4 didn't really get going until episode 5, so...fear not, things are about to pick up. That said, I too have been underwhelmed with 4A. The Brotherhood is so uninteresting...the show is just so much better when it focuses on the AI stuff.

 

He's probably the only character that makes Reese interesting at this point. His relationships with Shaw and Finch feel static, and he didn't have any scenes with Root

Yeah, you know, one of my major beefs with this half-season is that the events of 3B haven't shaken up the Core Four's dynamic at all, when I think they really should have. For my money, both Reese and (more so) Shaw should have been seriously peeved at Finch for refusing to kill the congressman in Death Benefit, and the consequences of that (non-)decision should have led them to at least start questioning how they do things, what lengths they're willing to go to to win, if Finch should just unquestioningly get to be the team leader, etc etc etc. It just feels unrealistic to me that Reese and Shaw (until 4x10, at least) haven't once second-guessed that decision or been pissed or been rueful or been reflective or anything like that. (Also, some self-reflection from Harold about his own moral cowardice might be nice, too.) Really, the finale of S3 should have been a game-changer on a number of levels for the show, and I've been disappointed that the show hasn't really changed its game at all.

 

And I do think introducing some friction into the Finch/Reese relationship would really help Reese particularly. You're right that all his relationships feel very static right now, and as he's the show's least interesting core character to begin with, that's not a good thing for him. I think they were banking on the "Reese is the worst cop EVAR!" stuff livening him up, but that didn't happen (and in some respects was a disservice to the character, too). I enjoy his bickering sibling-like relationship with Shaw, but it's not very deep, so putting him and Harold somewhat at odds again would really help liven the character up, imo.

[FurryFury]

Oh yeah, episode 5 is so much better! I could even say it's one of my favorites in the whole show! A terrific return to form.

 

That Root/Finch scene... I think I'm totally shipping it. Not in the romantic way, obviously, but the feelings I got during their scenes are almost akin to the feelings I get when pairings I ship interact with each other (I don't really ship any of the couples on the ongoing shows, though. I do miss the feeling, however). Their first talk about Root and the Machine not talking to her was so great, as was a later scene when Finch called her a friend (awww!). Not sure about Shaw/Root ship tease, though, that's just not my thing, even if I can understand people who ship them - I just don't see it as romantic, I think Root could come to see Shaw as a replacement for her friend who was murdered, though.

 

Anyway, there's just one thing left unexplained - I still feel like Root's opinion on Samaritan has never really been explored. She says "The world will go dark", but why should it bother her, really? Except for that she's thrown her lot with the opposing side, of course. After all, Samaritan, presumably, also has a plan and its own logic, and it's something Root cares for the most. Her feelings on Samaritan should be complicated and interesting, but the show just avoids delving into that.

"Not all make it out alive". Obvious foreshadowing on someone's death. Please, don't let it be Root, way too obvious. I vote Reese. He's still dead weight, even if I don't really mind him... I can't see any way in which he could develop. If Carter's death hasn't done it, nothing can (it was a nice scene when he talked about Carter, though).

 

Also, I've had a thought that the dynamic between the Machine and Samaritan has to be something really fascinating - something much more epic and complicated than the current shadowy struggle akin to the conflict between different earlier iterations of the Machine shown in the flashbacks - but I'm not sure if the show would ever get there. If it wasn't as limited by the format, I could even imagine a much more fantastical outcome of this relationship, maybe even a "bad future", kinda like in Dollhouse and its "Epitaph" episodes (a show that has also suffered of network mandates and imperfect initial format, but still managed to produce a very interesting story).

[johntfs]

 

Anyway, there's just one thing left unexplained - I still feel like Root's opinion on Samaritan has never really been explored. She says "The world will go dark", but why should it bother her, really? Except for that she's thrown her lot with the opposing side, of course. After all, Samaritan, presumably, also has a plan and its own logic, and it's something Root cares for the most. Her feelings on Samaritan should be complicated and interesting, but the show just avoids delving into that.

 

I think Root's opinion of Samaritan is fairly clear.  Root is the high priestess of The Machine.  Samaritan is a rival God who rising up to challenge and destroy her Goddess.  Root wants to thwart, weaken, impede and eventually destroy Samaritan by whatever means The Machine will allow her to pursue.

[ABay]

There isn't a general Season 4 thread, but this spans multiple episodes and I'm not sure where else to post it:

 

With the show returning this Tuesday, I’m refreshing my memory by rewatching from the start. I’m in the middle of episode 5 right now.

A few things I noticed or renoticed this time through:

 

In the opening credits when we see Harold and John walking through the construction tunnel—the moment from the pilot when they’re on the way to the library—the squares around them are white and have lettering I can’t read. I think they used to be blank yellow squares?

 

Samaritan’s data on Senator Garrison is hilarious: Attempts to subvert the Constitution, Bribes taken, Alcohol Abuse Incidents.

 

It seemed to me the first time I watched episode 1 that the conversation between Greer and Samaritan re: whether it was time to kill Garrison was foreshadowing Samaritan eventually killing Greer. I think this is carried further in the many plots and subplots about seconds-in-command v. leaders.

 

That and hubris are the major themes of the season, imo.

 

Samaritan sees a lot more “deviants” than the Machine saw threats. It seems like every crowd or traffic scene has at least one red dotted box. That ties in, I guess, with the message in episode 3 that crime is on the rise.

 

I really like the new captain and would like to see more with her.

 

Michael Emerson and Amy Acker are at their bests in their scenes together.

 

Episode 5’s flashbacks with Harold's 43 early AIs killing each other and the survivor trying to kill Harold calls back to episode 1 & 2 where Samaritan has been seeking out and killing rival projects, companies, and people who have guessed that something is going on (and it still seems like a massive waste of Frederick Weller). The laptop episode also calls back to that.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ABay

[Bort]

Samaritan sees a lot more “deviants” than the Machine saw threats. It seems like every crowd or traffic scene has at least one red dotted box. That ties in, I guess, with the message in episode 3 that crime is on the rise.

I think it's more that Samaritan is less tolerant about "red flag" behavior than The Machine and thus sees more deviants.

[Julia]

I think it's more that Samaritan is less tolerant about "red flag" behavior than The Machine and thus sees more deviants.

 

Interesting. It would explain a lot if The Machine was flagging behavior which points toward crime and Samaritan was flagging non-normative behavior. Especially interesting since Samaritan apparently thinks opening fire on a suspected person of interest in a room full of innocents is normative.

 

It's also going to be interesting to see what happens if Samaritan starts to question the difference between what its handlers are telling it and what it's seeing.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Julia

[ABay]

That, too. Or possibly The Machine's red darts were for immediate threats?

 

Another recurring trope: women impressed by heroism from nerdy men.

 

A couple of cross-tropes: Euler's equation or whatever that's called has popped up on a couple of shows lately, and gangs of jewel thieves based on the French gang that hit Cannes and several other places are also experiencing a wave of popularity.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ABay

[stealinghome]

In the Season 3 finale, didn't we see Samaritan flagging someone as a "deviant" because he watches too much porn on the Internet? That suggests, I think, that Samaritan flags all "non-normative" behavior (the problem, of course, is who defines what is normative) as well as direct threats to both itself and the nation.

[Mari]

In the Season 3 finale, didn't we see Samaritan flagging someone as a "deviant" because he watches too much porn on the Internet? That suggests, I think, that Samaritan flags all "non-normative" behavior (the problem, of course, is who defines what is normative) as well as direct threats to both itself and the nation.

It could also be a case of flagging behavior that puts someone in a position to be blackmailed.  For example, Random Truck Drive #278 who watches a lot of porn might not be a risk/deviant, because it's not going to seriously impact the general population if he's watching the current version of Debbie Does.

 

While newly married government analyst #172 who watches a lot of porn could be a risk/deviant, because if he's threatened with exposure, would he change his analysis/data?

[ABay]

Winning hearts and minds is another ongoing theme. It's explicit with Dominic--he uses the phrase in episode 4, Harold uses it about him in episode 7 (or 8...I'm losing count). Harold also uses it in reference to Samaritan in the previous episode where he makes the analogy to Castro building good schools when he took over Cuba so that the people would love him. Episode 2 with the nautilus game also ties in; the recruit was looking for meaning, which Samaritan seemed to offer.

Edited January 4, 2015 by ABay

[amensisterfriend]

Wow! As someone who took a long break before catching a random S4 episode on demand tonight, I'm pretty astounded at how much the show has changed since S1. Which episodes/ seasons are your favorites so far? Which ones do you like least? I gather from other posts here that Last Call will be getting some votes in the "liked least" category :)

[stealinghome]

Pretty much all of S3 is really, really, REALLY good. The first four or so episodes of the season are hit and miss, but once you get to the Shaw episode it just takes off like a bullet train and never stops (with a few minor glitches here or there such as Last Call). I would also watch the last 2-3 episodes of S2 to prepare for S3.

 

I would also watch all of S4 so far, with the caveat that the first 4 episodes are okay and the most recent 4 are very, very mediocre (4x04 is, in fact, even worse than Last Call). But episode 11 is amazing, and more generally 5-13 are excellent (again with one or two glitches).

Edited March 23, 2015 by stealinghome

[Agent Dark]

If you were looking for an idea of what episodes to catch up on, I find it hard to not just say 'all of them'.  Yes, there is alot of case-of-the-week procedural stuff in the first 2 seasons, but scattered amongst it are flashbacks to the early days of The Machine, when Harold and Nathan Ingram are building it.  Those scenes are some of the best things the show has done, and they really help to set up the mythology and character of The Machine. 

[amensisterfriend]

Thanks, everyone! I'm definitely going to catch up on all of them, starting with the beginning of S2. 

 

I was just curious about how others would rank the seasons from favorite to least favorite and what your personal 'best' episodes are :) 

 

Based on what I've seen of the series, I think I have a few somewhat unpopular opinions so far:

 

1. I do find John Reese a compelling and likable character, though JC's whispery delivery drives me nuts sometimes :)

2. Objectively, I agree with those who think Finch hasn't been developed that much...but I love Michael Emerson too much to care! 

3. I neither liked nor disliked Carter. She just didn't have a very well-defined personality for me. I agree with people who thought the kiss with Reese came out of nowhere. 

4. I'm generally allergic to Amy Acker, but based on what you guys have said about Root, I'm determined to give the character a chance! At least she isn't a cutesy, Fred-from-Angel type of woman :) 

5. I love the PoI/crime-of-the-week stuff. I'm excited to see the series expand beyond that and do find the machine intriguing, but I'd definitely miss the standalone episodes if they ever disappeared. 

 

 PoI is my project this week (sadly, I'm only productive and goal oriented when it comes to TV!), so I'll definitely check in again :) 

[Bort]

I'm generally allergic to Amy Acker, but based on what you guys have said about Root, I'm determined to give the character a chance! At least she isn't a cutesy, Fred-from-Angel type of woman :)

She's definitely not. In fact, if you ever saw Acker on Alias, that's the character she's previously played that's most like Root.

[FurryFury]

I think Fred was the only major character of Acker's that was actually cutesy. And even if you hated Fred, you have to admit she was great as Illyria.

 

In fact, if you ever saw Acker on Alias, that's the character she's previously played that's most like Root.

 

Her name was Peyton, I believe. Funnily, she was also ambiguously lesbian (although that was mostly fan theories).

Edited March 23, 2015 by FurryFury

[Bort]

Her name was Peyton, I believe. Funnily, she was also ambiguously lesbian (although that was mostly fan theories).

Yeah, I remember, it was from the massive chemistry she had with Rachel Nichols. Acker could have chemistry with dryer lint.

[JoeSchwike]

Our cable provider (Comcast) is having a 'Watchathon' week coming up, with past seasons available for viewing on-demand.  I have been watching Person of Interest regularly starting last season (and all of the current season), but I haven't seen most of Season two, and hardly any of Season one.  What would be the best episodes to watch?  (I know the answer should be all of them LOL, but with work and school, that's not feasible).  I am really interested in the flashbacks on how Finch and Nathan built the machine, as well as how the other team members were introduced.  Any handy episode guide would be helpful!

 

ETA - also interested in seeing Root before she became part of the team - I've seen the episodes where she was in the mental hospital, but not much prior to that.

Edited March 24, 2015 by JoeSchwike