Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[statsgirl]

It always amuses me, just before it makes me ragey, when they say how much Thea has grown this season. She's literally doing nothing but helping Oliver and Quentin do their jobs and getting Quentin sober.

40 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

It's uncanny how misogyny works by gaslightIng female voices. Oliver was the one who decided he couldn't date Felicity in S3, and then spent 20 episodes being growly about it. Then Oliver was the one who hid a secret kid for bizarre reasons nobody can explain with a straight face. But it's obviously Felicity who was responsible for all of that, because it's only ever women who can be blamed when the male protagonist, having actual active voice in the narrative while making theses choices, refuses to date them or hides offspring from them. The drama is female, obvi.

Because it's always the woman's fault when the man is an idiot.  Men cannot be held accountable for these things they are forced to do.

It will never not be ridiculous that Oliver lied to Felicity, the woman who was financially supporting him in addition to being his fiance, and didn't go to a lawyer to get his legal rights to William.

[LeighAn]

13 minutes ago, Lidach said:

This is main reason why I don't have hope in any good SL progress further in season(s). Especially after Twittergate by almost half BTS team. 

It depends what your definition of good is I suppose.

If you expectations are that they are going to acknowledge the flaws in their writing and develop overnight up to par with the Soprano or Breaking Bad caliber of writers Hell No!

But if they maybe get scared by the lack of buzz, lack of ratings, and an angry network and maybe try and course correct by going back to the things that gave them ratings buzz and a happy network while completely ignoring and not addressing the bigger flaws in their writing- probably.

Thing is Im totally open to watching Arrow as a don't take it too seriously guilty pleasure shallow television show if that's the show they want to be- although they've shown their capable of more- as long as characters I actually care about are being superficial characters  who interact with one another and not with randos I could give two craps about.  

Edited January 6, 2017 by LeighAn

[ladylaw99]

I  watched this show because it was something I have never watched before (comics), so I never took it seriously but, I am bitter that my brain is on overload trying to make logic out of things that are not logical especially when I know they are capable of better.

[insomniadreams88]

9 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It will never not be ridiculous that Oliver lied to Felicity, the woman who was financially supporting him in addition to being his fiance, and didn't go to a lawyer to get his legal rights to William.

Felicity financially supporting Oliver while he was lying to her will always make me rage-y. I remember thinking last season that he better not have been using her money to pay for trips to CC or anything related to Samantha or William. 

[Chaser]

The Arrow writers are some of the most superficial TV writers I have ever seen.  They completely glaze over implications to get to a specific scene or plot point.

They see Oliver going to see his secret son as tragic and so difficult for him. I see Oliver being an idiot and jerk. An idiot because freakin DD and possible media attention since he is running for mayor. And a jerk because Felicity is financing his life and these secret trips are happening while Felicity is adjusting to being paralyzed.

[ladylaw99]

These writers are so lazy. Heaven forbid you put in any emotion into your characters instead lets make them look so dumb that as a viewer I can't justify any of your hero's actions.  Everytime I read anything regarding the babyma drama my brain hurts. 

[tangerine95]

They seriously never stop to think how the characters look when they do stuff like that. And then they're always shocked that fans question it and they get backlash. They basically expect the fans to watch the show as superficially as they write it. 

[ladylaw99]

Sad part is that my kids could write better than them.

Let's face it the writers get all mad because the fans have had better ideas than them and would execute it better if given the chance.

[Ophanim]

Sometimes, I think writers write season 5 as a literary comic book, where characters just spell words with no emoting.  It's main purpose to come from plot A to B by C.  But that's just me, surely some people love season 5 so far, so I must be in minority.  I just don't fell nothing for lead character and I can't relate to his journey right now. I am on "wait and see" territory with show. I will catch later if I hear there's any payoff worthy watching. 

[dtissagirl]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

They seriously never stop to think how the characters look when they do stuff like that. And then they're always shocked that fans question it and they get backlash. They basically expect the fans to watch the show as superficially as they write it. 

Ding ding ding we have a winner. They seem terrified of sophisticated viewers. No wonder they were so hilariously blindsided by O/F fans asking pertinent questions on Twitter earlier in the season.

[LeighAn]

7 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Ding ding ding we have a winner. They seem terrified of sophisticated viewers. No wonder they were so hilariously blindsided by O/F fans asking pertinent questions on Twitter earlier in the season.

What's worst the most insulting for me personally  was actually a female writer Sarah Tarrakof. She was actually the first one to start the whole it's just cause your shippers thing when people commented on that its kinda gross to have Felicity saying she owes Billy sex by replying something to the effect of you would have loved it if she said it to Oliver 

Edited January 6, 2017 by LeighAn

[Ophanim]

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

What's worst the most insulting was actually a female writer Sarah Tarrakof. She was actually the first one to start the whole it's just cause your shippers thing when people commented on that its kinda gross to have Felicity saying she owes Billy sex by replying something to the effect of you would have loved it if she said it to Oliver 

UGH, that was the worst.... I have all them block by now on twitter.

[insomniadreams88]

2 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

What's worst the most insulting for me personally  was actually a female writer Sarah Tarrakof. She was actually the first one to start the whole it's just cause your shippers thing when people commented on that its kinda gross to have Felicity saying she owes Billy sex by replying something to the effect of you would have loved it if she said it to Oliver 

Yeah, that was awful. I think it was also because we barely saw any of Felicity/Billy's relationship. That was, what, the third scene we had with them? 1 in the premiere, 1 in 502 and then that one, right? So not even 5 minutes on-screen together and she's saying she owed him for cancelling on him? They could have easily made that a coffee date. 

[statsgirl]

7 hours ago, tv echo said:

^^^

I can't get this to go under spoiler tags but I hope it's not too spoilery because it can really apply to any nightshoot in winter.

What gets me is all that work by all those people working overnight, and if the writing is crap, it doesn't matter how hard everyone else works, the end result is still crap.  That's what the writers don't seem to get when they get all defensive.

[EmilyBettFan]

12 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I can't get this to go under spoiler tags but I hope it's not too spoilery because it can really apply to any nightshoot in winter.

What gets me is all that work by all those people working overnight, and if the writing is crap, it doesn't matter how hard everyone else works, the end result is still crap.  That's what the writers don't seem to get when they get all defensive.

This. They are writing that so we can feel bad for them and congratulate them. Maybe they shouldn't write scenes when it's cold. Since when have they had snow in their show? I don't think ever (unless you count fake Russia story.)

Also like you said doesn't mean anything if the writing is crap and only furthers the plot for the newbies or the ridiculous character of Susan. No thanks.

[Starfish35]

I've been reading all the conversation and thinking about how I feel about the show now.  I think I finally realized that part of the reason, a big part of the reason, I gave up on the show finally was because I simply do not care about Oliver anymore, at all really.  I don't hate him - I just don't really care about him.  I don't understand him and I can't sympathize with him most of the time, and the show does not care at all about giving me storylines and POVs for characters I do care about, which has ended up being mainly the female characters (minus Laurel).  I'm even pretty apathetic about Diggle at this point.   I mean, I love Diggle, but his storylines...*sigh* 

With Oliver, I think it started in season two, when he went ballistic on Moira for keeping the secret about who Thea'a father was.  Add to that his treatment of Roy, and then the entire mess with Malcolm and Ra's in season three, and then the whole baby mama drama in season four.   It's hard to stay interested in a character that keeps doing things I don't understand, especially when the narrative seems to expect me to sympathize and agree with him (this is also the problem with Barry).  So....it's always interesting to me when people rage about "Felicity and Friends", because like others in this thread, I would actually enjoy that show.  The bee episode last season was not a good episode objectively I suppose, but I enjoyed it just because of having Felicity and Donna and Thea all together.  

I know that a show about the Green Arrow is not going to turn into a female-focused show, nor should it.  But I guess I'm bitter that they never found a way to have all the characters be balanced developed characters with POVs of their own, and I'm bitter that they keep expecting me to agree and sympathize with the actions of the lead just because he is the lead, or because it fits whatever plot they're trying to drive at the moment.  

[dtissagirl]

16 minutes ago, Starfish35 said:

It's hard to stay interested in a character that keeps doing things I don't understand, especially when the narrative seems to expect me to sympathize and agree with him (this is also the problem with Barry).

I was just reading a review of that new movie Passengers, which is apparently a gross disgusting male stalker fantasy disguised as sci-fi rom com, and the critic was talking about how much of both script and direction is targeted at making Pratt's character sympathetic, and it's funny that this guy [the critic] is as feminist as they come, but he was shocked at the nerve of the writer/director.

Except... this is the default for male driven stories everywhere. Whenever you have a protagonist that's supposed to be a hero, and for some reason he isn't, the writing and the direction will go out of its way to justify whatever not-heroic thing the male protagonist did. Arrow and Flash are prime examples. Oliver hiding a secret kid for reasons was framed as "aww, poor desolate dude with an impossible horrible choice to make". Barry going to a psychopath and ordering a hit on his mother was framed as "aww, poor woobie Barry is gonna lose his mom and dad again, HOW SAD".

The saddest part is general audiences either don't even realize this kind of writing for men is EVERY FUCKING WHERE, or they fall for the emotional manipulation, because we're so used to seeing men as hero protagonists of almost every story ever.

[Proteus]

Wow. Don't spoil a movie many haven't seen in this thread. I know I haven't.

[Chaser]

Having seen the movie, she really didn't spoil it.

[Proteus]

3 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Having seen the movie, she really didn't spoil it.

Ok. Thanks.

[calliope1975]

4 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I was just reading a review of that new movie Passengers, which is apparently a gross disgusting male stalker fantasy disguised as sci-fi rom com, and the critic was talking about how much of both script and direction is targeted at making Pratt's character sympathetic, and it's funny that this guy [the critic] is as feminist as they come, but he was shocked at the nerve of the writer/director.

Except... this is the default for male driven stories everywhere. Whenever you have a protagonist that's supposed to be a hero, and for some reason he isn't, the writing and the direction will go out of its way to justify whatever not-heroic thing the male protagonist did. Arrow and Flash are prime examples. Oliver hiding a secret kid for reasons was framed as "aww, poor desolate dude with an impossible horrible choice to make". Barry going to a psychopath and ordering a hit on his mother was framed as "aww, poor woobie Barry is gonna lose his mom and dad again, HOW SAD".

The saddest part is general audiences either don't even realize this kind of writing for men is EVERY FUCKING WHERE, or they fall for the emotional manipulation, because we're so used to seeing men as hero protagonists of almost every story ever.

The good thing about the Passengers example is once many people, especially women, heard about the plot, they noped out of seeing it; plus the reviews were terrible. The bad thing is I don't think Hollywood will take the right message from this failure. No one would have blinked at said plot 10 maybe even 5 years ago, but that shit's not cool anymore. 

[tv echo]

It would be pretty boring if everyone had the same opinions about TV shows and characters. So I'm okay with different opinions and interpretations. I'm just bitter whenever I see double standards being applied, especially when such behavior is rewarded (whether in real life or in entertainment).

Btw, I've not seen much complaining about the new GA (Rebirth) comics series - which give BC pretty much co-equal status and panel time with GA, even though the comic is called Green Arrow, and not The Adventures of Green Arrow and Black Canary.

Edited January 7, 2017 by tv echo

[Lily-n11]

If I put some pieces together this is what negative!Me comes up with:

Arrow always intended to go with the GA / BC romance. Network pushed KC on them. Showrunners didn't want her but couldn't get rid of her for whatever reasons. Instead they wrote crappy storylines for her character thus paving the way for her to make it onto all the worst character lists. For 3 season it was "See network, the character is not working." - "She stays, try again." Meanwhile they switched the O/L-romance for Olicity and they used it to distract people from things that were not.

Then finally season 4: "We tried everything. Gave it our best. She is still not working." - "Okay. Kill her already." They killed her off and luckily already got to syndication by then. Suddenly they didn't need Olicity anymore. So they break them up and from this moment forward practically stop writing for them as well. As some people on twitter said: "(Insert any Olicity quote)... until syndication."

Now season 5 they can start brand new. They can finally tell the epic, awesome, gamechanging GA/BC romance they always wanted. And with a BC that's even better than the one they started with.

Spoiler

Because she is an actual metahuman.

I'm sure if SA shows up with the facial hair first day of season 6 they will tell him "Excellent. We're keeping it." And finally the tv show can be just like the comics. Olicity get out of here!

(I'm a little bitter right now.)

Positive!Me: Olicity is still endgame and O/T will never happen.

But in all seriousness, I do believe a lot this season was a DC or network demand. I just wish they would tell us what exactly. If I knew what was an order from above I could at least stop blaming the showrunners for those things. And there would be no need to look for logic because the reason is "they had to".

[CooperTV]

7 hours ago, Lily-n11 said:

Positive!Me: Olicity is still endgame and O/T will never happen.

I never watched Smallville but I think they did make Clark/Lois happened on that show anyway after basically destroying original OTP of Clark/Lana. I don't have much hope for Olicity.

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

I never watched Smallville but I think they did make Clark/Lois happened on that show anyway after basically destroying original OTP of Clark/Lana. I don't have much hope for Olicity.

I guess there were some people that shipped Clark and Lana but I only knew people that didn't like them/her LOL. She was the LL of Smallville.

I don't know what they plan to do on Arrow but the comparison isn't that appropriate imo because the plan since the beginning was to introduce Lois and go for Lois/Superman, no doubts about that. That show started when they were kids in high school and Lana was the first and temporary LI before they introduced Lois and went for the real endgame. I know people debated between Chloe and Lois as an endgame for Clark, not Lana..

[LeighAn]

I recall the writers saying in a dad commentary for Smallville that they ALWAYS wanted Lois Kane on the show but it took them along time to get permission for her and when they did get her they never knew for how long they could keep using her. So she and presumably Clois was always on the cards for them.

I also heard through fandom grape vine that due to the Superman movie there was also restrictions on how they could use Lois and Ckark and Lois and that they intended to put them together in season 5-6 but were denied permission. I don't know how true or not that is. 

People can think Olicity is over forever all they want I guess will find out soon enough how true or not that is but Smallville and Arrow are two very seperate shows. 

Also Od point out that Clana were also a canon book romance so it was comically accurate that she was Clarks first love. If they had put him with Chloe, who was actually the more popular choice then the comparison might have fit.

[kismet]

I barely watched Smallville... one season only when my roommate did, but even I knew Lana was not going to be endgame. Lois & Clark- that's a legendary pairing that transcends the comic world and is in the general pop-culture stratosphere as a super-couple. For them to ditch that coupledom & go their own way would have been shocking for me. I do think Smallville did have the potential to go for Chloe as a true love of Clark but not an endgame, but then I would have suspected her to be killed to make way for Lois. Or for Lois to not survive. I do think the longevity of the show changed how they wanted Clark's romantic pairings to play out. I didn't follow the BTS, but I don't think they expected to go for 10 seasons.

I think the door is wide open for Arrow to do whatever they want for the Endgame/OTP. I still think it will be O/F. But if they bring in a new BC that has chemistry with SA, there is the potential for them never to return to O/F. I honestly, just wish the writers knew how many seasons they are going to get. They are pretty horrible with details and frankly write crappy romantic relationships. It would be nice for them to have a realistic timeline that they can follow so they can at least get some basic pacing down. Not this lightning fast to iceberg slow thing they have going on. It may not improve the writing, but at least it would give a ballpark of when the ridiculousness for stretching out the pairing is going to end.

[Mellowyellow]

Now that I've realised how easy it is to get renewed on CW I think Arrow might go on for ages which means the chances of Olicity going kaput are even greater and you couldn't even blame the writers.

Say SA signs on for S10 because he likes the money but EBR decides to go and live in the mountains or join Madam Secretary as Russell Jackson's perky daughter (ok that's totally my pipe dream). No Olicity and you couldn't even blame the writers!

I should end it in my head in season 3. Man I loved season 3! 

[Velocity23]

Arrow is not gonna go on for Arrow. The role of the lead is way too physical for SA to keep up. At best they had 2 more seasons. Its quite different from Flash and Supergirl. A show that they will milk for all that is worth will be the flash. 

[Ophanim]

18 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

Arrow is not gonna go on for Arrow. The role of the lead is way too physical for SA to keep up. At best they had 2 more seasons. Its quite different from Flash and Supergirl. A show that they will milk for all that is worth will be the flash. 

That's why stunt guy exist. SA could play OQ at least 5 more years. It would be closer to comic books, if I read wiki right. He is like oldish dude in comics. So there is no end game plan, for now, IMO.

But we have in TV canon time travel, other Earths, so possibilities are endless for storylines. If you have imagination, creativity, and obviously as of late - green light from DC.

[CooperTV]

34 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

Say SA signs on for S10 because he likes the money but EBR decides to go and live in the mountains or join Madam Secretary as Russell Jackson's perky daughter (ok that's totally my pipe dream). No Olicity and you couldn't even blame the writers!

I'd say that EBR's prospects are good even if she'd be stuck on Arrow for other four-five years. Isn't she's the youngest of them all?

2 minutes ago, Lidach said:

If you have imagination, creativity, and obviously as of late - green light from DC.

As of right now, they only have DC's approval, and not much imagination or creativity, IMO.

Edited January 12, 2017 by CooperTV

[Velocity23]

57 minutes ago, Lidach said:

That's why stunt guy exist. SA could play OQ at least 5 more years. It would be closer to comic books, if I read wiki right. He is like oldish dude in comics. So there is no end game plan, for now, IMO.

But we have in TV canon time travel, other Earths, so possibilities are endless for storylines. If you have imagination, creativity, and obviously as of late - green light from DC.

We are still talking about the CW. Arrow shoots mostly at nights. That means quite a lot days working from 5 -6 am till midnight. Or even Fraturdays like the lovingly call them. Those are hard to pull through and stunt people don't help with that. You also have to consider SA wants to do the stunts and from what i understood SA no longer has the stunt guy from s1 because he went to work on Supergirl. Flash and Supergirl also get away with recycle material when Kara flies or Barry runs, SA has to do it all.  

Arrow also isn't their most successful superhero show. I really don't think they will push for that many seasons. I can imagine that scenario for Flash though. And i would say that they are looking into spinning off another show from Flash just as Arrow will be closing its chapter. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Velocity23

[LeighAn]

I don't know many shows that switched their established endgame OTP without their being some extenuating circumstances like one half leaving the show or BTS drama like with House (The actress playing Cuddy quitting/let go due to money disputes ) and Castle (the actor and actress supposedly feuding) or not being popular in the first place. Especially not in the fifth season of what may be a 7-8 season show tops.

Honestly what frustrates me is that we have already seen what Arriw looks like when they kill a ship- it's called Lauriver.

• Oliver and Laurel betray Tommy before he dies
• Oliver and Laurel say they can never be together again because of Tommy death
• They carry on relatively non phased post break up
• Oliver and Laurel get into a screaming match in the hallway which amounts to them saying Fuck you I'm done
• Oliver then falls in love to the point of engagement with someone else and the romance is written the television version soulmate romance
• Oliver and Laurel barely interact in any meaningful way again and when they do have scenes together their incredibly antagonistic and confrontational with them saying low blows to each other and wondering what they saw in each other
• Then Laurel gets killed off telling Oliver that she knows she was not the love of his life even though he was hers 

Compared to Oliver and Felicity:

• First we have uber romantic date, uber romantic first I love you, last thought before dying, uber romantic first sex, running off into the sunset, living together, engaged
• Then comes break up with Oliver and Felicity telling each other how much they love each other and how they don't want to let each other go but break up anyway
• Then we see both torn up by break up 
• They continue to orbit around each other Oliver saving Felicity Felicity comforting and encouraging Oliver; taking trips to Hub City and get flirty
• Felicity chooses to stay with Oliver with "not a chance" that she'd leave
• They have a platonic and workable partnership with the occasional heart eyes teasing and flirting
• They are shown to play mum and dad to a bunch of baby vigilantes
• Felicity dates someone that she feels guilty telling Oliver about and struggled to own up to commiting too and kept him at arms lengths 
• Oliver dates someone only after realising that Felicity has closed the door 
• The two of them say they are a mortal lock, that they are always on the same page and make heart eyes forever at each other 
• The two make subtle jealous digs about the others partner/potential partner
• Felicity becomes the figment that breaks Oliver from being alien brainwashed with greatest hits from their past
• We see a never before seen flash back of Oliver and Felicity making heart eyes and flirting with each other and Oliver getting down on one knee
• Without going too much into spoilers Oliver and Felicitys storyline become more interconnected and entwined with Billy's death and they parrallel with one another

I don't think the writing has been overwhelmingly positive for Olicity, they've been back burned no doubt, but I just don't see the Olicity are dunzo forever signs at all, like was apparent with Oliver and Laurel.

Then again I know their were Olicity fans (not specifically at this forum) who lived in fear of Laurel stealing Oliver back because!comics! and GA/BC foreva right up until the funeral set pics last season.

[CooperTV]

5 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

I don't know many shows that switched their established endgame OTP without their being some extenuating circumstances like one half leaving the show or BTS drama like with House (The actress playing Cuddy quitting/let go due to money disputes ) and Castle (the actor and actress supposedly feuding) or not being popular in the first place.

And Castle ended with Castle and Beckett happily married with three kids.

[LeighAn]

7 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

And Castle ended with Castle and Beckett happily married with three kids.

Yay I don't watch but I remember some bigbinternet hubbub about them doing something ship ruining online Was it divorce or something?

[Mellowyellow]

Are you running scared of the prospect of having to type something like that up once every fortnight to calm us all the hell down @LeighAn :p

[LeighAn]

1 minute ago, Mellowyellow said:

Are you running scared of the prospect of having to type something like that up once every fortnight to calm us all the hell down @LeighAn :p

Haha :p xoxo

I was in a mood to waffle. 

[CooperTV]

13 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

Yay I don't watch but I remember some bigbinternet hubbub about them doing something ship ruining online Was it divorce or something?

I didn't watch it either, I was just rubbernecking at BTS drama and caught some spoilers along the way. I think they made them fake-broke up in the last season because Beckett went undercover (probably because Fillion and Katic couldn't stand to be in a room together), and it was all horribly contrived. I believe  there were issues due the renegotiations of the contracts, as Fillion signed his but Katic didn't and they wanted to do season 9 without Beckett. They did two season 8 finales, one with Beckett being killed in the shoot out and one with them both surviving and seven-years-later flashforward with the children. Then ABC cancelled the show, and Castle and Beckett were happy at last!

[Ophanim]

1 hour ago, LeighAn said:

I don't know many shows that switched their established endgame OTP without their being some extenuating circumstances...

Now, I will be the "devil's advocate" in this case: imagine if you swamp Laurel's name with Felicity, and do some season 5 changes according to story, you almost have same scenario as with Lauriver. So there is still time for all above said in context of breakup/fights/ignorance, and time for new OTP (to rise) if EPs want that direction or MUST go in that direction (DC mandat). Look what we had so far, so much backpedaling and non logical mess storywise, so I seriously wouldn't be surprised with anything. 

Just to remark. I.DO.NOT.WANT.THAT.   I am just very observant, occasionally pessimist, but most of the time realistic person. And I like conspiracy theories :)

After all, CW motto is, "dare to defy".

A little digress: Felicity Smoak is very popular character, an industry and fans alike, WHY DC/WB/CW don't use that info? They don't like a money? Silly them! Because I walk through three EB Games stores until I finally found Funko Pop Felicity Smoak in Toronto (I visited my family there in May). The point is, I am grown person, never read comics (except some Fringe stuff and AOT manga), and I bought f*** doll of my favorite character, and even bought some Flash and Arrow comics where she appears. See pattern?  I would gofund FS comic just to read her adventures, so yes I really want that show "Felicity and Friends". No joke. 

And I have felling I am not only one...

Edited January 12, 2017 by Lidach

[dtissagirl]

Imo the main thing with replacing Laurel's name with Felicity's name is that the creatives had a ginormous behind the scenes problem in Laurel as the main LI -- the abject lack of chemistry -- that they don't have with Felicity. They felt the need to replace Laurel because TPTB deemed KC's and SA's chemistry unacceptable. Hell, we have enough bts rumors going on to suspect they realized they had A BIG PROBLEM right in the pilot, but were told by the network/studio to keep KC on. And hey -- they were right, because neither L/O nor Laurel ever tracked that well with professional media/critics, or gave them any kind of significant promotional visibility in social media.

There's no chemistry problem with O/F. There's no social media visibility problem with O/F. There is a somewhat embarrassing [for them] optics problem with O/F in that these guys are ~manly men who might [totally] feel emasculated that their macho superhero show is more notable for a romantic relationship that speaks to A LOT of women than anything else they tried to sell. Their mandate at the CW is to not scare away male eyeballs, and O/F is lady eyeballs catnip. But that is ultimately way more of an ego problem than a money problem.

Now, I don't know what they'll do, obviously, but what I do know is that they now have TIME. Time to maybe explore different LIs for Oliver? A male-pov fantasy LI that wears a mask to attract male eyeballs via romance? I don't know.

What I do believe is they are gonna be keeping O/F in their back pocket for the endgame. Because endgame is a monetary decision first and foremost: DVDs sell super well when 'ship happens. And they want to sell DVDs to EVERYONE, not just male 18-49. But now those DVD packs won't be for sale for a few years, so in the meantime, we have the show operating under abject fear of the dumbass Moonlighting Curse. Because that's how the WB does it.

[LeighAn]

How is any of the scenes in season 5 similar to Laurivers demise in season 2-3? I'm genuinely asking? 

I feel like I went pretty detailed but explain to me how Olicity looks even close.

There was three big death knells to Lauriver.

The conversation at the end of 2x01 where they both talk about how they can never go back.

The conversation in 2x14 where Laurel accuse Oliver of ruining her life and Oliver basically tells her that he's done with her and offers her money to buy another drink - in the midst of her alcoholism story line.

And 3x14 where Laurel tells Oliver she can't remember a time where she ever loved him.

There were smattering of scenes between those moments- most of them arguing and taking digs at each other- but those were the big stand out scenes. 

Abdvtheir story ended with flash back of Oliver running away from Laurel (4x19) when they had the chance to be together because he felt he didn't deserve her and he was running from commitment and Oliver on her dying bed basically telling she knows Felicity is the love of his life.

What in season 5 suggests that Olicity follow the same beats?

I mean I don't want to keep rehashing what I've already written but again Oliver breaking out of alien trance with memories of Felicity, the flash back with proposal imagery, the plantonic yet flirty partnership, Felicity telling Oliver she was always in awe of him and him sharing a part of his life he never talks about, calling each other a mortal lock which by definition is a sure bet, the feeling awkward and uncomfortable discussing people their dating with each other.

To be it is a far different trajectory. Lauriver is the evidence of what ship killing on this show is because it was an actual ship that was killed.

But genuinely explain to me how Olicity matches up?

[Ophanim]

Honesty, that chemistry argument by EPs is IMO just excuse, because if you have talented actors who know their jobs (and that is to sell emotion onscreen), even with bad script A+ talent can sell it.  It depends on the actors (partially on scripts), my opinion.

For example, there is lot of rumors of other co-stars who had some disagreement BTS, and yet chemistry never suffer onscreen.

[LeighAn]

But that's it-Katie and Stephen weren't selling chemistry other then the odd moment here and there. They didn't seem to be on the same wave length and had the same kind of communication and partnership Stephen has with Emily where they work together to elevate the material. Not to mention Lauriver had very little fan support or media support to make up the deficit.

[Midnight Lullaby]

There are actors that can sell a connection with basically everyone but imo SA isn't one of them. With KC or the actress that played Poppy it was particularly bad but I could make lots of examples where he looked quite uncomfortable. That's why here the chemistry argument is important. JMO.

[Ophanim]

26 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

How is any of the scenes in season 5 similar to Laurivers demise in season 2-3? I'm genuinely asking? 

I feel like I went pretty detailed but explain to me how Olicity looks even close.

....

To be it is a far different trajectory. Lauriver is the evidence of what ship killing on this show is because it was an actual ship that was killed.

But genuinely explain to me how Olicity matches up?

You explained perfectly Lauriver demise, and I agree. The way they wrote their relationship is one way street called The End Road.  Similarity with Olicity?

Not literal, but I played devil's advocate and said it COULD go in that way. There is still TIME for all written point. They killed One ship in like two seasons, why is so hard to believe they would kill an another one, maybe not on so toxic way (like with Lauriver).    

Edited January 12, 2017 by Lidach

[LeighAn]

If I had to rank Stephens chemistry from worst to best it'd go:

1. Poppy

2. Laurel

3. Helena 

4. Sara

5. McKenna

6. Susan

7. Shado

8. Felicity

[dtissagirl]

18 minutes ago, Lidach said:

Honesty, that chemistry argument by EPs is IMO just excuse, because if you have talented actors who know their jobs (and that is to sell emotion onscreen), even with bad script A+ talent can sell it.  It depends on the actors (partially on scripts), my opinion.

For example, there is lot of rumors of other co-stars who had some disagreement BTS, and yet chemistry never suffer onscreen.

We can see it as an excuse, sure, but Hollywood folk TRULY BELIEVE in onscreen chemistry. They swear by it, they believe it's a measurable and tangible thing. Casting directors careers are legit made by pairing up actors that the industry deem magical when they're onscreen together.

And they also believe onscreen chemistry has nothing to do with how well the actors get along backstage. I once worked in a movie where 2 actors who were best friends IRL had to play enemies on screen. The production had an acting coach in pre-production, and she kept trying to rile them up against the other for like, 2 months, to no avail. But when they were on screen they sold hatred like nothing else.

[Midnight Lullaby]

3 minutes ago, LeighAn said:

If I had to rank Stephens chemistry from worst to best it'd go:

1. Poppy

2. Laurel

3. Helena 

4. Sara

5. McKenna

6. Susan

7. Shado

8. Felicity

I agree on the first two but I'd switch Susan with Helena instead..

[Chaser]

IMO its difficult to see them ending Olicity this season because they are following a rather cliche TV blueprint. 

Ep 1-4 was the tease that this relationship is still there. Ep 5 they decide to try and move on but not without some reassurance and hesitation. Olicity makes an appearance in the 100th and the MSF because the audience needs to remember they are Ship. 

Honestly, if there was no reappearence in the 100th and MSF then I would be more concerned. 

[MaisyDaisy]

The chemistry is a problem with Lauriver, Olicity can portray so much emotion and connection just looking at each other across a desk, yet even with Laurel cupping Oliver's face there is still a disconnect. 

EBR is like Candice Accola-King- they could have insane chemistry with a potato. Some actors bounce off them better than others, but it's always pretty great with anyone.

SA and KC, just don't have that ability. Colin carried KC chemistry wise, so Tommy/Laurel felt more relatable to me.  SA and KC were like two negative charges that need a positive to work. 

I do think that SA connects onscreen with other actors better than KC does though. The only people I think you could really see her having mutual chemistry with was Paul and Katrina, both actors who like Colin pull off any scene they are in.

Edited January 12, 2017 by MaisyDaisy