Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[DeadZeus]

I liked the list too. But where is it? When Oliver left the island he wasn't interested in fighting crime, he was interested in taking down that list. Really detemined to do it.
Ever since S1 island Oliver the list wasn't mentioned once and i strongly doubt he actually still has it on the island. So my theory is that the list will make a come back in the main story and the island flashbacks. Cuz i doubt Oliver kept it in his pocket the whole time and he probably needs to find it somewhere again on the island.

[johntfs]

I liked the list too. But where is it? When Oliver left the island he wasn't interested in fighting crime, he was interested in taking down that list. Really detemined to do it.

Ever since S1 island Oliver the list wasn't mentioned once and i strongly doubt he actually still has it on the island. So my theory is that the list will make a come back in the main story and the island flashbacks. Cuz i doubt Oliver kept it in his pocket the whole time and he probably needs to find it somewhere again on the island.

 

Presumably the List is stuck in a secure drawer somewhere that Oliver lives in Starling City.  He constantly referred to the List during Season 1 but ceased referring to it during the next seasons, presumably because he decided to broaden his scope to include general crime-fighting and such.

[bijoux]

I think the question was where is it in the flashbacks.

[way2interested]

I liked the list too. But where is it? When Oliver left the island he wasn't interested in fighting crime, he was interested in taking down that list. Really detemined to do it.

Ever since S1 island Oliver the list wasn't mentioned once and i strongly doubt he actually still has it on the island. So my theory is that the list will make a come back in the main story and the island flashbacks. Cuz i doubt Oliver kept it in his pocket the whole time and he probably needs to find it somewhere again on the island.

 

Maybe wherever that picture of Laurel is? They both need to make a comeback at some point. My theory was just that he left both of them on the island somewhere, like in a cave or in the fuselage somewhere to come back to once he had his last year on the island. He left the island pretty abruptly without his consent at the end of s2, so I didn't expect him to have them with him in s3, and so far in s4 he hasn't had a chance to visit the fuselage again.

[Starfish35]

Another thing that struck me when watching - that hosen that Oliver gave Thea. There's another dropped thread that ultimately never went anywhere. And you can clearly see Isabel Rochev's name on the list two or three down from Adam Hunt's, right in the first episode. So why was Oliver not more wary around her?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Starfish35

[DeadZeus]

I think the question was where is it in the flashbacks.

Yea that's what i meant, right now Island Oliver gives no craps about righting his fathers wrongs... He only did in 1st season but i don't see it anymore. So i wonder what will happen to make him determined again.

[dtissagirl]

Chronological Flashbacks Being Made Irrelevant By Massive Narrative Changes in Present Time Storyline on the TV Show Arrow: a model case study.

[way2interested]

Yea that's what i meant, right now Island Oliver gives no craps about righting his fathers wrongs... He only did in 1st season but i don't see it anymore. So i wonder what will happen to make him determined again.

See, I kind of see s4 FB Oliver at least the type of person who want to right wrongs in a way. In s3, he risked his life various times to save the Yamashiros as well as Hong Kong itself, so saving others and fighting those who have "failed this city" are somewhat ingrained into Oliver at this point. Even in 401, Oliver was in Coast City trying to threaten and beat up a drug dealer, even though he had no personal ties to the city or its people at all. 314 had Oliver literally see his father apologize, mention the list, and ask Oliver to right his wrongs again, so this is still going to be in his mind as well. So the two main aspects of why he was the vigilante in s1 are already there somewhat ("to right my father's wrongs and to stop those who are poisoning my city"), he just has no actual motivation to go back to Starling City and do that yet, since his only attempts at saving anything have actually failed (s1 He stopped Fryers, but that's been somewhat negated coming from the fact that Yao-Fei and Shado are now dead and the fact that in stopping the weapon he actually let China White go free. s2 he couldn't save Slade or Sara, and he even had to kill Slade because Oliver didn't give him the cure. s3 he couldn't save Akio or Hong Kong and Maseo and Tatsu lives as they knew them were over forever, and his skill at torturing with the general gave him some catharsis without really giving them useful information.)  

 

From earlier, I do have the idea that maybe seeing his father's book and the picture of Laurel will motivate him to come back, once he remembers that those things, you know, exist. Plus, if he gets a real win in either s4 or s5, it could give him a real push to doing something worthwhile in his life, like righting his father's wrongs and defending his own city.

 

S1 FB Oliver to me didn't really care about righting his father's wrongs as much as just surviving in general, although his hallucination of his father did show that his father is definitely a motivational factor in his survival, which could come back in his thought process of why he would want to go back to Starling.    

[chaos is welcome]

I just rewatched the pilot episode. I don't know how far I'll go with any rewatch, but it was interesting to see it after so long.

The action scenes were amazing. I miss that so much. And there's a.....directedness, I guess. Maybe focus is a better word. I still think season one was the best plotted out of any season (although admittedly it's too soon to really make that call for season four).

I guess I feel a little sad. I think they've definitely improved some things....bringing on Felicity, dumping Lauriver and the whole Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle idea. But they've lost some things too. I miss the show feeling so focused.

I don't know if that makes much sense. :( It's hard to put into words.

Yeah I totally know what you mean. It was really the fight sequences and attention to detail that hooked me in this show in season 1. I loved how the hosen was subtly dropped and came in to play later. I lived oliver's struggle with who he was in flashback. I think the problem with the fight scenes is that they used to do a bunch of the fights with only a few cuts....remember the fight scene for Walter's rescue, where oliver decimated a whole hall of goons and it was a single shot? They can't do it anymore because they are TRYING to cut between 801 masks in every fight. So both the attention to detail and the fight scenes are gone. The gritty realism is also gone, and I really appreciated that too. I feel like since 2b those elements have been on the downshift....and it's so bizarre because while I love ota and the oliver/felicity dynamic, it definitely is a source of bitterness because they could have done so much more. I'll never stop being buyer about how they started just dropping story lines for plotty reasons (like roy's integration in to the team). So yeah, it makes perfect sense to me. Season 1 was so much more in so many ways. I really haven't been head over heels since probably they gave roy the big moment of revealing oliver's identity, then dropped him like a hot potato. That's when they stopped paying attention to how the story flowed.

[Sakura12]

For me it's different, I liked Season 1. The fight scenes were great but the show itself was that interesting to me. I let episode after episode fill up my DVR then I binged them later. It was enough for me to tune into Season 2. It was Season 2 that made me fall in love with the show and I enjoyed the whole season. Mostly because I don't care about Olicity and am not stuck on the OTA being only Oliver, Diggle and Felicity. I was completely ready to welcome new people like Roy and Sara.

While I do agree with the issues that season 2 had with the motivations and I don't think Sara and Oliver needed to hook up but I didn't mind it. As for Laurel she became a non-entity to me so I did not care one bit about Sara hooking up with Oliver effected her. Arrow would've been a much better show if she didn't exist. I would've actually seen Quentin and Dinah's reactions to Sara's return and had them talk to each other. I liked what little we got, with Sara having been through so much was fine with her mother finding someone else as long as she was happy.I loved Sara and Quentin's scenes. Him finding out she's alive, her telling him how she never forgot his voice, him finding out how messed up she was when she jumped at the slightest sound, him finding out Sara was in love with a woman, her looking like a scolded child when she killed a man in front of him and him telling her she's the strongest person he knows. Instead everything became all about Laurel. She made the Lance family something no one wanted to watch.

Now Sara doesn't even get to interact with anyone but Laurel. All those people she had relationships with in season 2, all those people that knew her better and actually searched for her murderer, don't matter. It's Laurel who barely mattered when Sara was on the show that gets to tell Sara she should fight in the light. When that speech would be better coming from Oliver or even Diggle who is now struggling with his little brother that went to the dark side. Or maybe Felicity who can make up for saying Sara has no light to Laurel. Quentin saying would mean more too since he knows more about Sara's struggles than Laurel who knows nothing.

I would've loved to see Quentin talk to Sara after getting her back a second time. Talk to her about why she was always leaving.

Then we have Oliver talking to Ray and he doesn't even like Ray all that much instead of talking to his fellow survivor. He saved her soul, he's the one that wanted to help her find the light before she died and he didn't say one word to her. I know I've said it million times but if the only way Laurel can have a purpose is by having Sara not talk to anyone else showcases even more how unnecessary she is.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sakura12

[chaos is welcome]

Yeah, I hate how little attention they gave to resurrected sara.

[loki567]

Oh yeah, I'm generally not a, "blame Laurel for everything," guy but no question the writers were protecting Laurel by keeping Sara from sharing scenes with the rest of the cast. It's crazy to think with her being dead for a year but Sara still feels like she could slide into the Team Arrow dynamics better than Laurel.  

[chaos is welcome]

I will never not be bitter about the new ga suit. It's hideous.

[HighHopes]

Chronological Flashbacks Being Made Irrelevant By Massive Narrative Changes in Present Time Storyline on the TV Show Arrow: a model case study.

Really, if there is one thing this show should be doing right and have a plan for it should be the the damn flashbacks. They know where Oliver ends up in present day in season one, they really should have had a set plan for how he got there regardless of what happens/changes during their present day story planning. The present day stuff should not be affecting the flashback stories.

I am 97% sure they forgot all about Oliver's Chinese tattoo last season and threw how he got it into the Constantine storyline because it was a way they could kind of handwave it away without needing to develop an actual storyline for it.

Edited January 10, 2016 by HighHopes

[chaos is welcome]

That was the dumbest thing ever btw. Forever.buyer ab a mystical tattoo and that awful cgi shark lolol.

[Sasha]

I changed my cable company and lost all my season 4 episodes. I'm bitter that I am not bitter that they're gone. We've had 9 shows and I was trying to remember what happened. No cheating just from my admittedly poor memory. 1. Olicity omelette sweaty sex. 2. Sara dug up? 3. Sara back Sara gone? 4. Ray back Ray gone? 5. ? 6. ? 7. ? 8. Baby mama horror show. 9. Olicity goodness. Save this one again.

What am I missing? Curtis intro. He's okay, kind of a smart mouth. Damien Dark: magic fingers and corn obsession. Mama Smoak & Papa Lance hooked up! Flashbacks: some chick grows poppies or her name is poppy? Shark!

What else did I miss? Hells bells it's going to get better, right?

Edited January 11, 2016 by Sasha

[GirlvsTV]

I may be overreacting, but the events of 4x09 brought with it the realization that since Tommy's death in season 1 every other major death or permanent injury on Arrow has been to a female character. It's made me think back on the show as a whole and I'm beginning to develop a deep bitterness for the way Arrow seems to portray violent acts towards its female characters vs. it's male characters. Tbh, I'm not sure if I actually have a reason to be bitter about this. Maybe these particular moments are just sticking with me more because they involved female characters I cared about . . . Or it's just a side effect of the fact all the deaths/serious injuries have been to women.

Moira, Sara, Shado, Thea and Felicity were all killed/injured in very violent and traumatic ways and Laurel had the sh*t kicked out of her in Canaries . . . I can't really think of comparable scenarios experienced by male characters on the show. Maybe Oliver when Malcolm beat him up in season 1? Or when Billy Wintergreen tortured him? Roy getting beat up in jail? I just don't remember being horrified by those moments the way I was with the others - I've never been able to rewatch any of them. Not sure if it's the violence itself, or the context of those moments that seems so different for me.

Tommy's death was sad, but heroic and not exactly violent. Oliver got stuck with a sword, but the flashbacks to his family and the R'as voiceover sort of made it seem peaceful? Whereas Moira, Sara, Shado, Thea and now Felicity were all involved it fairly graphic scenes . . .

What do you guys think? I'm sort of hoping I'm wrong and some of you will pop in here and list a bunch of graphic moments with the dudes getting trashed.

[way2interested]

 What do you guys think? I'm sort of hoping I'm wrong and some of you will pop in here and list a bunch of graphic moments with the dudes getting trashed.

I get what you mean, but I don't think that I have enough time to clarify my own position. Although coming to mind to me, I do remember Slade's burns were pretty graphic (but, not too permanent, so there's that), I literally shouted when Yao-Fei was shot in the head (but that might just be me), Tommy's death I did count as graphic since they did show part of the building support going through his body (may have been heroic but pretty painful for a guy who was pretty innocent in s1). All of the deaths and torture from Oliver have been towards men (not major characters, but every time he twists an arrow or knife in someone I cringe a bit). 

[thegirlsleuth]

What do you guys think? I'm sort of hoping I'm wrong and some of you will pop in here and list a bunch of graphic moments with the dudes getting trashed.

I consider all the violence to be gender neutral--Tommy's re-bar was pretty graphic, as was the violence done against Slade and Oliver--except when it came to Sara. The arrowing followed by the fall off a roof into a dumpster was complete overkill, but I credit it to them wanting to prove that she was really, really, really dead as much as anything.  I also think that so much violence has been perpetrated against women on this show because most of Oliver's important relationships are with women, and if you are going on percentages, the men haven't fared much better than the women, its just that Oliver has fewer male friends and family members.

[GirlvsTV]

But having the bulk of Oliver's relationships involve women and having those women be the characters who are killed/injured is a choice the writers are making. Killing or badly injuring Digg or Roy could have also had a profound effect on Oliver but they didn't choose to go down that path. They sort of went there with Roy a tiny bit, but he got to survive his ordeal.

So, I guess it is the context of those major character deaths/injuries in comparison to the guys that is ultimately making me bitter. Tommy got a heroic death, Malcolm returned to annoy everyone, Slade is on Lian Yu and R'as was was killed, but he sort of got a nice death with Oliver saying that prayer over him. Did he even 'thank' Oliver? Am I making that up or maybe getting it confused with another show?

All of the women were victims though, even Sara. She did get to come back, but that doesn't seem to have been the original intention behind her death.

There's also the thing about men killing and/or attempting to kill the women in Oliver's life to cause *Oliver* to suffer. Nobody killed Tommy for Oliver to be sadwoe about it. Ivo killed Shado to spite Oliver, Slade killed Moira to make Oliver pay, Malcolm mindraped Thea into killing Sara to manipulate Oliver, Ra's killed Thea to manipulate Oliver. And now DD has told Oliver to his face his m.o. is to kill the people Oliver loves to cause him manpain, and then went after O/F's limo... and it turns out it was Felicity who got shot.

So it's a cumulativr icky effect of men victimizing women to affect Oliver.

Good points. Now I'm even more bitter. Grrr.

Edited January 12, 2016 by GirlvsTV

[dtissagirl]

There's also the thing about men killing and/or attempting to kill the women in Oliver's life to cause *Oliver* to suffer. Nobody killed Tommy for Oliver to be sadwoe about it. Ivo killed Shado to spite Oliver, Slade killed Moira to make Oliver pay, Malcolm mindraped Thea into killing Sara to manipulate Oliver, Ra's killed Thea to manipulate Oliver. And now DD has told Oliver to his face his m.o. is to kill the people Oliver loves to cause him manpain, and then went after O/F's limo... and it turns out it was Felicity who got shot.

So it's a cumulative icky effect of men victimizing women to affect Oliver.

Edited January 12, 2016 by dtissagirl

[AyChihuahua]

There's also the thing about men killing and/or attempting to kill the women in Oliver's life to cause *Oliver* to suffer. Nobody killed Tommy for Oliver to be sadwoe about it. Ivo killed Shado to spite Oliver, Slade killed Moira to make Oliver pay, Malcolm mindraped Thea into killing Sara to manipulate Oliver, Ra's killed Thea to manipulate Oliver. And now DD has told Oliver to his face his m.o. is to kill the people Oliver loves to cause him manpain, and then went after O/F's limo... and it turns out it was Felicity who got shot.

So it's a cumulative icky effect of men victimizing women to affect Oliver.

This is why I value your input so much.

 

Yeah, it's gross. 

[thegirlsleuth]

You're right, the perpetrators of the crimes does send the the violence into the ick territory.

[tarotx]

When you have a show with a lead character, the other characters are going to be used to affect that character. Even Tommy's death was used to lead to Oliver not to kill (though it and Sara's death main purpose was to push Laurel into her crucible).  The death of women and child Akio really have affected Oliver the most because he doesn't have relationships with men.  Robert, Yao fei and Tommy are dead. Slade turned evil. Lance is the most obvious death for season 4 but he doesn't have a lot of emotional power for Oliver.  I get that Oliver should have more males in his life but it's the way the show has written Oliver off Island. I think it's a side affect of them putting Oliver with different female characters searching for a new love interest as well as to push Sara to have a taste of the BC/GA crime fighters&lovers dynamic. But whatever the reason Oliver gravitates toward female relationships. And Oliver has one male friend right now. That's Diggle. Let's kill him and we'll all be happy?

 

Shado's death was a big shock but it was a dramatic moment that really propelled the flash backs into what they really need to be do more of-sadness, violence and pushing Oliver into the darkness. Moira's death was done to parallel. And though it was powerful it didn't do much for for the show except to show Slade's a villain. Which since they weren't going to kill him-why bother wasting Moira? To take a parental mentor figure away from Oliver each season...

 

Sara's death was all about pushing Laurel to be BC and to give JB stuff to do. And while she's back to life, her death was a true death. Akio, General Shrieve, Maseo and Ra's died last season but it just didn't feel connected as the earlier deaths because the Flash backs have lost their impact to the audience and Maseo was lost before he was killed by his wife and Ra's wasn't a audience grabbing villain. Roy and or Ray probably should have really died last season. I love Roy but yeah he's the death that would have affected Oliver the most of the two.

 

Maybe the show will kill William since they killed Akio last season and the show needs more male deaths. Likely they won't though since it doesn't fit the Grave dialogue. So that brings as back to Lance probably or to really affect the audience Diggle. Or not to affect any one Alex. Though there are kind of 8 females on the table. BM, Nyssa, Donna, Lyla, Baby Sara, Laurel, Thea and Felicity. DD might die but they could flip the table and have his wife be the Villain who ends up dead. DD also has a Daughter. And Flashback Poppy has a good chance of dying. Arrow just has a lot of female support characters. 

 

I think we are going to come back to a couple of things. Malcolm should have been killed at the end of season 1 but everyone seems to have a hard on for JB. Slade should have died at the end of season 2 but he's one of the larger Comic characters so tptb wanted to leave him in place to use again. And Roy probably should have died season 3 but he's also a larger comic character. And Ray they have a hard on for the actor who was going to a spin off. 

Edited January 13, 2016 by tarotx

[dtissagirl]

I'm not disputing the deaths were used to propel the storyline. They were. But as usual in the superhero genre, almost all story beats are pretty sexist almost by default, because there's absolutely zero work being done in the writers room to think outside the box. They could have avoided hitting the Women in the Refrigerator trope so many damn times simply by making a couple of the main villains go after the female characters with the intention to hurt THEM and give them storlyines, instead of using the victimization of so many consecutive women to provide angst for Oliver.

 

Instead, they made the story into men vs. men using women as objects to lose, over and over again. Make a couple of evil dudebros kill a woman because he has a big biff WITH HER, and presto: way less icky.

Edited January 13, 2016 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

I am bitter that they have not given OQ a male relationship to replace Tommy. Even when Roy was there, RH & OQ weren't really friends. I get that Diggle is his friend/partner/brother, but really OQ should have more male companionship. Even now with Faux-Tebow, they are connecting him to TQ & not OQ. It's just ironic because OQ before the island was someone who had a lot of male relationships, not female. And now relationships with females are basically the majority of his relationships. I get why killing Tommy made sense in the trajectory of OQ's journey but it was a little short sighted, esp when they didn't use it to also inspire LL. And consolidated too many roles into Dig & FS.

 

Tommy helped ground OQ in real life and as a person. S2 had better balance because MQ & QC was still around to make him seem like a real person. Also SL was a good person to help bridge his real life & vigilante life, with their history & present intersecting. In s3, there was no balancing factor that connected him to real life. OQ was not a person and seemed to be disconnected from real life. It's fine for them to consolidate and wrap all of that up in TA, but sometimes people need a life outside of their superhero life. There is no one that OQ can relate to just as a person. It would be nice if he had a male sounding board that is not day to day on TA.

 

In retrospect, it's also why I'm bitter about RP because I feel like he could have been brought in as a friend to both OQ & TA, instead of an adversary. He could have been someone that OQ could relate to lost soul billionaires with heroic ideology. OQ still could have lost the CEO role to RP, but rather than kicking him out RP could have reinstated him on the board in honor of the family legacy. I also wonder what that might have been like if RP was brought in as a friend, could they still have gone the romantic route with FS? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. But I do know that RP & BR became more digestible when he was interacting with the other males in the cast.

 

Also, if RP was helping OQ and being his friend, I would not have hated him for taking everything away from OQ. How am I supposed to like a character when he takes everything away from the main character and seems like a bad knock-off? It's the same reason it was so hard to like LL in s1-3, because they wrote her at odds with OQ from the beginning. The show just doesn't do well when it tries to run every plot line off of adversarial energy. I think they feel the only way they can write drama is to have people at odds with each other, when that just doesn't have to always be the case. Being at odds with OQ does not help characters. It has not helped LL, RP, FS and even QL. There needs to be a balance and the show seems to have trouble finding that balance. Even now with BM they decided to go the adversarial route I believe to the demise of both characters & the storyline as a whole.

[Trini]

... It would be nice if he had a male sounding board that is not day to day on TA. ...

Barry?

Edited January 13, 2016 by Trini

[bijoux]

Do we really know that Ollie had a lot of male relationships before the island? There are Robert and Tommy by my count. Sure, there were also Carter Bowen and Max Fuller, but I don't think they count.

[kismet]

Barry?

They won't let us keep Barry :( Im willing to trade away every major character but OQ, FS & Dig to get BA full-time on Arrow with OQ

And Arrow never really references him and when they do its FS, not OQ.

Do we really know that Ollie had a lot of male relationships before the island? There are Robert and Tommy by my count. Sure, there were also Carter Bowen and Max Fuller, but I don't think they count.

Nothing really has been stated. But he seems like he would have been more of a guy's guy when it came to relationships. He kept girls on his circulating black book but they were not his friends. They were hook ups or arm warmers. Edited January 14, 2016 by kismet

[DeadZeus]

Alot of S4 episodes barely have anything to do with Oliver. He's just... there. The fightscenes show this too. Team Arrow gets the bulk of the fightscenes and Oliver does very little. I mean... He had to retreat from Double Down and lost to Anarky.. Are u telling me those 2 could also beat Malcolm, Slade or Rha's? Sure... And alot of time when all 4 of them are fighting, he gets the least of the action time from the group. I just want S1-S3 action back, it was so good... But the action got dumbed down quite a bit in favor for cuteness/Olicity moments and the team. I like Felicity but i like Oliver S1-S3 more.

 

Again. Roy and Sara were great sidekicks with great stories and action scenes without taking to much time from Oliver. Why are they doing it so wrong suddenly with Laurel/Thea.

[AyChihuahua]

I really don't think the action getting dumbed down has anything to do with Olicity. They're totally separate scenes. There's no reason Oliver can't nuzzle Felicity at the loft and kick ass in the field. He's being portrayed as weaker because of Laurel, and maybe a little because of Thea. The problem, in part, is laziness on stunts in general (which IMO started in S3...the final Oliver/RAG fight was absolutely terrible), and that Laurel in particular has to be involved as a primary, not a sidekick, because she is the Black Canary, and the Black Canary is nobody's sidekick. 

 

Also, as some have pointed out, it's just a lot more work coordinating that many actors and their stunt doubles, and the show doesn't have the time or the budget to do that very well. When it was just Oliver vs. say three bad guys, that's four actors and at most four stunt doubles...now it's four good guys vs. say eight bad guys, meaning 12 actors and as many as 12 stunt doubles. 

Edited January 14, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[lemotomato]

I've complained at length about Oliver/GA not getting good fight scenes this season, but I have no idea how Olicity can be blamed for "dumbing down" the action.

I'm so bitter about the concept that an action hero can't be in love and be tough at the same time. If I got a dollar for every time I've seen "Oliver is soft now that he's with Felicity; that's why she has to die" I'd be as rich as those lottery winners.

Edited January 14, 2016 by lemotomato

[dtissagirl]

Maybe all that great sex Oliver is having with Felicity on the regular melted Oliver's brain so hard he forgot his fighting moves.

[Guest]

I've seen that argument a lot that Olicity is somehow to blame for the lack of Oliver/GA fight scenes but I really don't understand how when Felicity has nothing to do with Oliver being out in the field. It's not like they're scrimping on the action scenes in favor of more Olicity. They're just not giving the fight scenes to Oliver. It's so damn obvious. They never had this issue before Laurel and Thea joined the team.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Guest

[AyChihuahua]

Maybe all that great sex Oliver is having with Felicity on the regular melted Oliver's brain so hard he forgot his fighting moves.

Not like there was a whole lotta brain there to melt in the first place...

 

 

Again. Roy and Sara were great sidekicks with great stories and action scenes without taking to much time from Oliver.

 

Sara was also played by an actress who does a lot of her own stunts, which requires much less coordination. Even back in S1 and S2 when Digg was with Oliver, he was often perched somewhere with a rifle, so if, say, Oliver, Sara, and Digg were all in a scene, with SA and CL doing a lot of their own stunt-fighting and DR just sitting somewhere with a rifle, that's not much stunt-coordinating (I also think DR does some of his own stunt-fighting as well). So really just Colton needed a lot of coordinating and doubling.

 

Now Digg is physically fighting a lot more, so more stunt-work for him, KC cannot do any of her own stunt-work, and Willa doesn't do much of her own, either. (That's not meant as a dig...I'm overall buying Willa as a badass, so whatever she and her stunt double are doing is working for me, and KC being ridiculously uncoordinated is not actually her fault.) All that is just a LOT more work, and since they want the audience to buy that the newbies are totes badass, when something's gotta give it's not going to be their stuff.

Edited January 14, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[looptab]

They got away with it last season because they always forgot Diggle in the lair. Now, after it has been pointed out to them so many times they can't ignore him, but they also feel they can't leave any of them out of a fight, and that means less focus on Oliver. They need to learn a balance.

[dtissagirl]

I've seen that argument a lot that Olicity is somehow to blame for the lack of Oliver/GA fight scenes but I really don't understand how when Felicity has nothing to do with Oliver being out in the field. It's not like they're scrimping on the action scenes in favor of more Olicity. They're just not giving the fight scenes to Oliver. It's so damn obvious. They never had this issue before Laurel and Thea joined the team and I wonder why...

I do wonder if the people saying that are trying to find diegetic* motivation so ~OF COURSE~ it's Felicity's fault that Oliver's got the yips. /sarcasm.font

When of course there's some super simple math to be done wrt stunt coordination: the stunt team was used to choreographing 2 fighters [3 fighters at most in special cases] for the first three seasons. Now they have 4 fighters, and the exact same amount of production time, probably the same budget and crew size, for the same amount of screentime. On top of that, they made the creative decision that all the fighters have the same level of skill now... Cue Oliver getting less fight choreography, and less screentime during fight scenes.

* Diegetic means "as pertaining to the narrative". I was reading about film structure in Italian and French movies from the 50s and 60s [light vacation reading, yay], and I saw that word, and it's so much better than "in-text", so I'm gonna use it.

[lemotomato]

When of course there's some super simple math to be done wrt stunt coordination: the stunt team was used to choreographing 2 fighters [3 fighters at most in special cases] for the first three seasons. Now they have 4 fighters, and the exact same amount of production time, probably the same budget and crew size, for the same amount of screentime. On top of that, they made the creative decision that all the fighters have the same level of skill now... Cue Oliver getting less fight choreography, and less screentime during fight scenes.

See, your explanation just takes too much thinking and math and words and stuff. So much easier to go with the pithy "Stupid Olicity/Felicity! Whipped boyfriend Oliver can't fight; we want murderer sociopath Oliver back!"

[kismet]

If they just killed off LL it would fix at least on of their overcrowding issues.

[bijoux]

If they just killed off LL it would fix at least on of their overcrowding issues.

 

To be fair, they don't even have to do that. Have the team alternate and work out some sort of schedule so that Oliver can go to a campaign function one night, Dig can stay at home with Sara when Lyla has her pottery class, Thea can go on a date, Laurel can go to AA or have dinner with her dad... It's so easily fixed and they refused to do it. I have no clue how they can't see this would make the team seem more dynamic, offer them the chance to test out new things and finally, everybody converging having some damn impact instead of causing the reaction - oh, it's all of them. Again. Yawn. And for the love of God, scope the perimeter and use multiple entry points.

[tangerine95]

I think they're still obssesed with the image of 4 masks walking in a row like its a catwalk and don't see that it actually just looks silly and thats why they don't split them up.Hopefully its a phase and it will pass since they got a lot of criticism for the action scenes this season.I do think Laurel is the biggest problem because with her being BC they can't have her be Oliver's sidekick but can't show her as the only one equal to him and they also have nothing else for her too do,if she didn't have fight scenes and standing around in the lair her screentime would be less then 5mins.

[wonderwall]

I think they're still obssesed with the image of 4 masks walking in a row like its a catwalk and don't see that it actually just looks silly and thats why they don't split them up.Hopefully its a phase and it will pass since they got a lot of criticism for the action scenes this season.I do think Laurel is the biggest problem because with her being BC they can't have her be Oliver's sidekick but can't show her as the only one equal to him and they also have nothing else for her too do,if she didn't have fight scenes and standing around in the lair her screentime would be less then 5mins.

 

IDK It's probably in her contract that she has to do the 'hair flip' at least 2 times per episode. First it was Roy's unnecessary parkour... Now it's this. At least Roy's parkour was interesting and fun. :p

[thegirlsleuth]

By my estimation, Oliver and Felicity haven't been nearly naked enough to justify the accusation that they are to blame for the decline in fight choreography.  If Olicity is going to have to take the blame for the decline in fight choreography this year, I'm going to have to demand more sex scenes, or at least more kissing.  It's only fair.

 

I like the idea of switching out players on any given mission, however it would feel wrong to leave out Oliver, for me.  I think he should always one of the players unless he's the one being rescued.

[bijoux]

I think Oliver should be in the field pretty much always as well. But maybe he's sidelined due to an injury, his bad knee acting up or something. So then he has to direct the team from the lair, like he did with Ray last year.

The thing is, there doesn't even have to be so many fight scenes. I saw a gifset of Oliver disarming a Bratva stooge in S1 and that looked bad.ass. So many of the great stunts haven't been actual fights. Oliver jumping rooftops or scaling buildings, flipping Felicity over the railing or, probably my favorite ever, climbing up the chains Malcolm left him in and then dropping to break them. All the sequences this season come down to fights in the dark.

[EmilyBettFan]

Well that's like why do they need all four of them to go and get something from a building? Now to me Felicity is most likely the most important because she's the only one who can do her job and such. That's why OTA works so well. I don't know why they destroy things that work just because they want more "masks." So stupid.

[dtissagirl]

The thing is, there doesn't even have to be so many fight scenes. I saw a gifset of Oliver disarming a Bratva stooge in S1 and that looked bad.ass. So many of the great stunts haven't been actual fights. Oliver jumping rooftops or scaling buildings, flipping Felicity over the railing or, probably my favorite ever, climbing up the chains Malcolm left him in and then dropping to break them. All the sequences this season come down to fights in the dark.

 

I totally agree with you, but the problem they have here comes from the writing side, and the stunt team has to abide by it: Thea and Laurel's field skills are limited to fighting. The writing has never given them parkour or scaling skills, for example. Thea at least is an archer, so she can actively do stuff from a distance, but all Laurel has is close combat. That hinders the amount of non-fighting choreography stunts they can give either character. Which I'm pretty sure is what made all the close combat OF BOREDOM the new default this season.

[Morrigan2575]

I think that's a big issue because logically 4 people marching in from one door makes no sense. Same as having all 4 in one room or going in at the same time.

You would want to keep someone back to cover escape your back. Someone high up or at a distance that can get a look at what's going on a provide cover fire as necessary.

I think the show also falls for what I call the comicbook look. Too often there are scenes and shots that just scream I'm only here because it looks so cool in the comics. One such scene is in Flash 208, where all 3 (GA/Speedy/Spartan) are standing on top of the truck DD & the Ghosts are robbing.  There's no logic to that scene, it's just designed to look cool.

I can't find it now but back in 2013 all of the cast did a photoshoot for S2 and they also did videos answering favorite scene. EBR pointed to the Olicity diner scene (giving Oliver the book), KC pointed to the argument scene between LL/Lance where he used her as bait to catch the Hood. SA talked about the parkour scene (subway vigilante episode) and how they always talk the initial stunt and break it down to what is realistic and what SA could do. In the scene the stunt crew wanted him to jump through a car in pursuit of the bad guy. SA said, I can't do that but, I've always wanted to slide across the hood of a car. So, they altered the stunt to having SA pull a Dukes of Hazzard and it worked.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Morrigan2575

[lexicon]

I totally agree with you, but the problem they have here comes from the writing side, and the stunt team has to abide by it: Thea and Laurel's field skills are limited to fighting. The writing has never given them parkour or scaling skills, for example. Thea at least is an archer, so she can actively do stuff from a distance, but all Laurel has is close combat. That hinders the amount of non-fighting choreography stunts they can give either character. Which I'm pretty sure is what made all the close combat OF BOREDOM the new default this season.

 

Well since Laurel put on her suit, its magic imbuing properties, has meant that not only is she now the finished article in terms of combat skills but she's all really really good at jumping off of stuff, so we've also been blessed with many many scenes of that. 

 

I thought about deleting this post then realised that it's the bitterness thread, so now I'm wallowing in my bitterness about the decline in quality of the action scenes, which for the record I can't see getting better any time soon. After all, these are the ppl who think they're in the right to scoff PUBLICLY at Arrow's lack of emmy nominations for stunt work. That there is a level of myopia that says there ain't no amount of criticism that'll open their eyes to the suckfest that currently passes for Arrow stunts these days. 

[dtissagirl]

Where's that Laurel fighting air GIF? That's the most accurate visual representation of their Emmy chances.

[Chaser]

My favorite (I can't drip that in enough sarcasm) is the group scenes that feature bad guys waiting around to be punched.