Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[wonderwall]

There's not a lot of love here for Olicity, but the roundtable does a good job discussing why that didn't work and all the other stuff that didn't work http://www.tvfanatic.com/2015/05/arrow-round-table-happily-ever-after/

 

Meh, the roundtable was never olicity positive so that's nothing new. And I'm pretty sure anyone could write an essay about what went wrong with this season :p Pretty much everything, including Nyssa at the very end. 

[statsgirl]

I'd given up reading the TV Fanatic reviews but I read that because they are so stupidly picky (how do they expect Starling City to be completely evacuated so it can be destroyed?  Don't they think the inhabitants would have something to say about it?) , and once again I'm floored by the "I love Felicity but I hate what she did in this episode" comments. Every single review. I wonder how much they actually like Felicity when they keep disliking everything about who she is and what she does..

I don't think she had difficulty finding a job at all - she was working for Kord Industries and got fired for missing work after she got kidnapped (which apparently was the tip of the iceberg for her boss after missing work to do Arrow stuff, IIRC). I got the impression that she took the Tech Village job because she was able to do Arrow stuff there and thought that Oliver was going to get QC back soon - so it was just an interim thing.

I assume that came from the comics because on the TV show, she went straight to a low-level sales job at Tech Village because of the medical and dental.  That's my canon, and I'm bitter that they expect me to read the comics to get a different explanation.

[lemotomato]

I'd given up reading the TV Fanatic reviews but I read that because they are so stupidly picky (how do they expect Starling City to be completely evacuated so it can be destroyed?  Don't they think the inhabitants would have something to say about it?) , and once again I'm floored by the "I love Felicity but I hate what she did in this episode" comments. Every single review. I wonder how much they actually like Felicity when they keep disliking everything about who she is and what she does...

Every time I see "I love Felicity, but I hate blah blah blah", what the writer actually means is "I love Felicity when she was an awkward sidekick that said funny things, did tech stuff, and stayed in her corner, not this character that interacts with people other than Oliver and Diggle, leaves the Arrow Cave to do her own thing (even if it was just to go for a vacation on Palmer island), asserts herself, shows emotions, and makes her own decisions and mistakes."

 

I feel that for many people, Felicity was nothing more than comic relief sidekick, and any time she stepped out of that box, she got backlash from it. I remember last season, when she faced down Moira and told Oliver about Thea's parentage, people blasted her for being nosy, for getting involved where she didn't belong, etc. This season, she was everything but comic relief, at least in her scenes with anyone other than Ray. And that bothered a lot of people, because what they liked was early season 1 Felicity, not the character that's grown after 3 seasons.

Edited May 20, 2015 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

Apparently people are talking about this new promo for The Flash and Arrow and apparently only Barry, Oliver, and Laurel are in it? *sighs* Someone in the CW PR department really has a hard on for Laurel/masks. That irritates me A LOT. Like fine, put Laurel in there, but put Diggle, Caitlin, Cisco, and Felicity in there too. If not then just only put in Barry and Oliver. smh

[olicityfan25]

Is that the CW defy promo? That promo came out about 5 days ago I think. People are making fun of it still because of who is in it. They are really trying to get people to like her.

Edited May 20, 2015 by olicityfan25

[Password]

*snort*

I get that this is a super hero show so they promote the super heroes. But given the nature of how much the "support staff" does super heroing too, it's off putting that they never get a shout out.

Add to that the divisive nature of Laurel Lance in contrast to Digg and Felicity...they make people who already don't like her even more bitter after her 3 episode arc to glory.

[wonderwall]

Yeah I think it's the defy one? I love how it got no reaction though. Like literally almost no one knows about it and didn't create any hype whatsoever

[Axel]

It's a promo for all the CW shows and showcases the diversity of their programs : Reign got a lot of shots in it -while it's not exactly a success- but it's their sole "period show", so it represents. What is different ( and very visual) with Arrow/Flash shows, is their masked characters so it make sense to show them more in this kind of promo.

[Betweenthisandthat]

Every time I see "I love Felicity, but I hate blah blah blah", what the writer actually means is "I love Felicity when she was an awkward sidekick that said funny things, did tech stuff, and stayed in her corner, not this character that interacts with people other than Oliver and Diggle, leaves the Arrow Cave to do her own thing (even if it was just to go for a vacation on Palmer island), asserts herself, shows emotions, and makes her own decisions and mistakes."

 

But there are legit complaints from people, like me, who like Felicity but have found flaws in her characterization this season.  I don't think it's about keeping Felicity in her place.  If anything, even with additional screen time, they've limited her character even more and used her in the wrong way.  

 

Perhaps people cling to the season 1 and 2 Felicity in their complaints because that's when she had untapped potential.  It's the risk you take giving a popular character more material especially in the hands of clumsy writers: the popular character, already placed on this pedestal because she hadn't been mishandled yet, gets more criticism because expectations are high.  Felicity at her core is an awesome character, and in my mind she's much better than what she was given in season 3.  I don't think you have to be sexist or think she should be in her place as the cute computer geek to think that.  

 

I feel like I repeat myself a lot here, justifying why I'm bitter in the "bitterness thread" feels like a waste of time and counterproductive.    

[Ceylon5]

I think people are just getting upset because Felicity is being singled out all over the internet far, far more than anyone else on the show, when every single character (including the guest stars) was grossly mishandled this season, Oliver (IMO) more than anyone.  There's just a bit of defensiveness when one character gets picked on when it's a systemic problem of the season.  And yes, she was better loved and thus had further to fall, but I confess I still don't get the suddenly general hatred I see everywhere.  So it's fair enough for people to express bitterness that Felicity is being blamed for a lot of stuff when the mishandling of her character is merely a symptom (and not, by far, the worst one) of what poor writing the show suffered from this year.

 

I think almost everyone agrees that the writing for her character did her a major disservice, as it did for her relationship with Oliver.  They came up with one of the worst storylines they could have for this and being annoyed about it is totally understandable.  I can think of a million better things they could have done with her this year.  However, I don't think the character spoiled anything on the show, as many are claiming - I still enjoyed her despite the crappy plots she got stuck with.  High expectations can create great disappointment when they're not met.  Hopefully, if people go into next season expecting little from her, they will enjoy her a lot more.

[Sakura12]

Fans are just looking for someone to blame this awful season on. It's Felicity this year, it was the Lance family last year. 

 

When everything has one thing in common, the writing. That's what we should all be bitter at. They destroyed everything by finding the dumbest and most convoluted way to get from point A to point B. That's not even talking about finally getting to point Z. 

[olicityfan25]

Not to play favorites here but who else apart from Oliver and Diggle give them their best ratings? Oh that's right Felicity does. The guy demo was even better for her episode to. Which is hilarious because they say she doesn't bring in that demo.

[FurryFury]

I think people are just getting upset because Felicity is being singled out all over the internet far, far more than anyone else on the show, when every single character (including the guest stars) was grossly mishandled this season, Oliver (IMO) more than anyone.

 

I don't think she's been singled out more than anyone else. It may just feel like it because you all love her so much, but I think I've seen a lot of bitching about Ray and Laurel (as usual), and then Ra and Malcolm as well. 

 

I do think Oliver gets off way too easy. A lot of people seem to cut the hero a lot of slack just because he's the hero - and the worst thing is, so do the writers. They often don't even bother showing the viewers WHY they should like the hero or cheer for him, they just expect us to do it automatically. I've seen it on Arrow and now see it on The Flash.

[Ceylon5]

My run-down of the how the writing “done wrong” by the characters this season, from worst to least egregious (I had some trouble with the order, because so many were vying for the top spots!):

1) Sara: they killed her for no reason I can make sense of.  ‘Nuff said.  Upside: she’s coming back in another show!
2) Malcolm:  his whole storyline is stupid.  Why isn’t he dead?  Upside: can’t think of one – why isn’t he dead?
3) Oliver: stupid “I love you but can’t” relationship limbo with Felicity; constantly falling on his sword, both literally and figuratively throughout the season – lesson already learned, Oliver, please move on!; not confiding in his team (see previous point); trusting/working with Malcolm – and stop saving his life, for goodness sake – if you hadn’t saved him “for Tommy” back in season 1, you would have saved over 500 lives, including Tommy’s.  How is this still an unlearned lesson?  Jeez!!; everything he did while ‘undercover’ (mess up his friendship with Diggle, marry Nyssa, make his friends think he was killing them, etc.); he didn’t do the salmon ladder at all that I can recall.  Upside: finally told Thea he’s the Arrow.
4) Nyssa: was repeatedly defeated by Oliver; got locked up in the Arrow cave; got stuck with Laurel’s training; stole a lethal bioweapon from her father and then proceeded to just carry it about on her person for the next few months until she was captured (with plenty of warning) again, with it still on her.  Why didn’t you destroy it or turn it over to the CDC (or at least to Felicity) or hide it or SOMETHING, Nyssa?!?!? What was the long term plan here?!?!?  Soooooo stupid (for me, this was the dumbest of all the dumb things done this season by any character); was forced into marriage with Oliver, rape pending; didn’t get to kill her father or Malcolm (or Al Sahim); had to kneel to Malcolm, who murdered her beloved.  Upside: She got to briefly live a semi-normal life and learn gross new ways to eat junk food.
5) Thea: her whole storyline sucked.  From hanging with her crappy dad, to being drugged and made to kill Sara, to having her boyfriend not tell her about the fake death thing and take off on her once she did know, to getting stabbed and stuck in the magic hot tub, it all sucked. [ETA: And let's not forget the dreadful DJ boyfriend who tried to kill her storyline!]  Upside: she handled being told about Oliver being the Arrow really well; she’s learned self-defence, which every girl should know; she shot Oliver, which we all wanted to do.  [side note: I give up with the insta-ninja’s on this show.  Clearly it’s a Thing.  I’ve stopped caring.]
6) Ra’s: giant waste of space.  Upside: he’s dead now.
7) Ray: everything in his storyline that made him seem stalkerish; having to be the unnecessary alternative love interest for Felicity;  not being used as an effective rival for Oliver; getting himself and Felicity isolated from the rest of the story.  Upside: he gave Felicity a good job; he built a fancy superhero suit; he went out with a bang.
8) Lance: didn’t get told Sara was dead for most of the season; turned back into annoying S1 Lance as a result; drinking again.  Upside: he’s a Captain now?  Though he still can’t tell his men what to do and have them listen to him, so really, what’s the point?
9) The whole flash-back family, whose names I can’t be bothered to remember: the flash-backs were so boring my mind goes numb thinking about them; two of them died and the other has retreated into depressed solitude.  Upside: Two of them are dead and hopefully took those flash-backs to the afterlife with them.
10) Felicity: stuck in Oliver’s crappy love limbo; got a pointless and unnecessary alternative love story which, to add insult to injury, she didn’t even get to end herself; forced into an inorganic friendship with Laurel; her not-so-late boyfriend tried to kill her; unsurprisingly, this all made her cry.  Upside: Awesome mother; Goth Felicity; she had a good job which will probably, inexplicably morph into her owning a billion dollar business; she finally got to have sex; she continued to save the city with Diggle even with Oliver gone.  Oh, also, she saved Oliver’s life, which is useful for the show as a whole - he’s rather pivotal to the plot, such as it is.
11) Diggle: inconsistency regarding whether he should be side-lined for the sake of his family or not; inconsistent advice to Oliver on different occasions; helping Oliver save Malcolm (why, people, why?); getting generally side-lined for all the masks; having his friendship with Oliver mucked up again (we did this in S1, remember?  Can we please stop recycling plots?  Pretty please?).  Upside: baby Sara; married Lyla; kept the team going with Felicity even during Oliver’s many time-outs.
12) Laurel: insta-Canary; didn’t call the cops when Sara died; buried her sister in secrecy and didn’t tell her father for months; dumb canary cry.  Upside: less of her doing terrible things to the law; she’s Black Canary, if you like that sort of thing, and has her canary cry, which seemed to please some easy-to-please folks; she wasn’t kidnapped that I can recall this season (wasn’t paying close attention, though). [ETA Correction - she was kidnapped at least once, because I remember her surprisingly calling Felicity for help and Oliver carrying her from the crashed car.]
13) Roy: didn’t tell his girlfriend about his fake-death plan, before or after, and then took off on her after she found out.  Upside: got to save Oliver from jail; tried to help the family of the cop he unknowingly killed; tried to atone for his mistakes.  His was the least mishandled story of the year, excepting his treatment of Thea at the end.

 

Smaller characters like the boxing-teacher dude, Deadshot and Cupid didn’t fare any better story-wise.  Even Lyla got kidnapped by Oliver and used as a reason to ruin Diggle and Oliver’s friendship.  Nice going, show, you left no-one unscathed by your astounding crappiness.  How very egalitarian.

 

Anyhow, for me, Felicity fared a lot better than many of the other characters in terms of having the plot kick her characterisation to hell.  I do, however, notice one glaring difference between Felicity and every single other person mentioned above (apart from Flashback Child): she’s the only non-fighter out of all of them.  The Last Remaining Non-Ninja!  Though, when she saved Oliver in the ATOM suit, many people complained about that too (though it’s about a million times more believable that she knew how to use a suit she helped build than any of the insta-Ninjas’ sudden fighting prowess).  All is apparently forgiven if a) you don’t ever cry (except Oliver – he’s allowed to cry in a manly way), and b) you put on a ridiculous costume and get in fights.  Nyssa had a shocking season, but people sympathise with her and still think she’s awesome anyway, writing to the contrary notwithstanding.  If people can do that for her (and Thea and the others), why not for Felicity too?  That’s what’s bugging me.  They had better not have her crying AT ALL next season, because crying seems the quickest way to make people tire of a character.

Edited May 21, 2015 by Ceylon5

[Password]

It's so weird to me when people call Felicity whiny this season. The only instance that I can think of when I thought she whined a little was when she told Oliver all the wonderful things Ray was giving her in their relationship. And even then it seemed more a delivery whine than a statement whine.

I am somewhat bitter that Felicity crying is a knock against her character. No I didn't like that she cried, but I don't think she's just a crier for the sake of crying. She's had emotional upheavals one after another. Sara dead, Cooper evil back from the dead, Oliver dead, Oliver as Al Sahim (and her home at the foundry destroyed). Seems like good reasons to cry tbh.

[Chaser]

My run-down of the how the writing “done wrong” by the characters this season, from worst to least egregious (I had some trouble with the order, because so many were vying for the top spots!):

1) Sara: they killed her for no reason I can make sense of.  ‘Nuff said.  Upside: she’s coming back in another show!

2) Malcolm:  his whole storyline is stupid.  Why isn’t he dead?  Upside: can’t think of one – why isn’t he dead?

3) Oliver: stupid “I love you but can’t” relationship limbo with Felicity; constantly falling on his sword, both literally and figuratively throughout the season – lesson already learned, Oliver, please move on!; not confiding in his team (see previous point); trusting/working with Malcolm – and stop saving his life, for goodness sake – if you hadn’t saved him “for Tommy” back in season 1, you would have saved over 500 lives, including Tommy’s.  How is this still an unlearned lesson?  Jeez!!; everything he did while ‘undercover’ (mess up his friendship with Diggle, marry Nyssa, make his friends think he was killing them, etc.); he didn’t do the salmon ladder at all that I can recall.  Upside: finally told Thea he’s the Arrow.

4) Nyssa: was repeatedly defeated by Oliver; got locked up in the Arrow cave; got stuck with Laurel’s training; stole a lethal bioweapon from her father and then proceeded to just carry it about on her person for the next few months until she was captured (with plenty of warning) again, with it still on her.  Why didn’t you destroy it or turn it over to the CDC (or at least to Felicity) or hide it or SOMETHING, Nyssa?!?!? What was the long term plan here?!?!?  Soooooo stupid (for me, this was the dumbest of all the dumb things done this season by any character); was forced into marriage with Oliver, rape pending; didn’t get to kill her father or Malcolm (or Al Sahim); had to kneel to Malcolm, who murdered her beloved.  Upside: She got to briefly live a semi-normal life and learn gross new ways to eat junk food.

5) Thea: her whole storyline sucked.  From hanging with her crappy dad, to being drugged and made to kill Sara, to having her boyfriend not tell her about the fake death thing and take off on her once she did know, to getting stabbed and stuck in the magic hot tub, it all sucked.  Upside: she handled being told about Oliver being the Arrow really well; she’s learned self-defence, which every girl should know; she shot Oliver, which we all wanted to do.  [side note: I give up with the insta-ninja’s on this show.  Clearly it’s a Thing.  I’ve stopped caring.]

6) Ra’s: giant waste of space.  Upside: he’s dead now.

7) Ray: everything in his storyline that made him seem stalkerish; having to be the unnecessary alternative love interest for Felicity;  not being used as an effective rival for Oliver; getting himself and Felicity isolated from the rest of the story.  Upside: he gave Felicity a good job; he built a fancy superhero suit; he went out with a bang.

8) Lance: didn’t get told Sara was dead for most of the season; turned back into annoying S1 Lance as a result; drinking again.  Upside: he’s a Captain now?  Though he still can’t tell his men what to do and have them listen to him, so really, what’s the point?

9) The whole flash-back family, whose names I can’t be bothered to remember: the flash-backs were so boring my mind goes numb thinking about them; two of them died and the other has retreated into depressed solitude.  Upside: Two of them are dead and hopefully took those flash-backs to the afterlife with them.

10) Felicity: stuck in Oliver’s crappy love limbo; got a pointless and unnecessary alternative love story which, to add insult to injury, she didn’t even get to end herself; forced into an inorganic friendship with Laurel; her not-so-late boyfriend tried to kill her; unsurprisingly, this all made her cry.  Upside: Awesome mother; Goth Felicity; she had a good job which will probably, inexplicably morph into her owning a billion dollar business; she finally got to have sex; she continued to save the city with Diggle even with Oliver gone.  Oh, also, she saved Oliver’s life, which is useful for the show as a whole - he’s rather pivotal to the plot, such as it is.

11) Diggle: inconsistency regarding whether he should be side-lined for the sake of his family or not; inconsistent advice to Oliver on different occasions; helping Oliver save Malcolm (why, people, why?); getting generally side-lined for all the masks; having his friendship with Oliver mucked up again (we did this in S1, remember?  Can we please stop recycling plots?  Pretty please?).  Upside: baby Sara; married Lyla; kept the team going with Felicity even during Oliver’s many time-outs.

12) Laurel: insta-Canary; didn’t call the cops when Sara died; buried her sister in secrecy and didn’t tell her father for months; dumb canary cry.  Upside: less of her doing terrible things to the law; she’s Black Canary, if you like that sort of thing, and has her canary cry, which seemed to please some easy-to-please folks; she wasn’t kidnapped that I can recall this season (wasn’t paying close attention, though).

13) Roy: didn’t tell his girlfriend about his fake-death plan, before or after, and then took off on her after she found out.  Upside: got to save Oliver from jail; tried to help the family of the cop he unknowingly killed; tried to atone for his mistakes.  His was the least mishandled story of the year, excepting his treatment of Thea at the end.

 

Smaller characters like the boxing-teacher dude, Deadshot and Cupid didn’t fare any better story-wise.  Even Lyla got kidnapped by Oliver and used as a reason to ruin Diggle and Oliver’s friendship.  Nice going, show, you left no-one unscathed by your astounding crappiness.  How very egalitarian.

 

Anyhow, for me, Felicity fared a lot better than many of the other characters in terms of having the plot kick her characterisation to hell.  I do, however, notice one glaring difference between Felicity and every single other person mentioned above (apart from Flashback Child): she’s the only non-fighter out of all of them.  The Last Remaining Non-Ninja!  Though, when she saved Oliver in the ATOM suit, many people complained about that too (though it’s about a million times more believable that she knew how to use a suit she helped build than any of the insta-Ninjas’ sudden fighting prowess).  All is apparently forgiven if a) you don’t ever cry (except Oliver – he’s allowed to cry in a manly way), and b) you put on a ridiculous costume and get in fights.  Nyssa had a shocking season, but people sympathise with her and still think she’s awesome anyway, writing to the contrary notwithstanding.  If people can do that for her (and Thea and the others), why not for Felicity too?  That’s what’s bugging me.  They had better not have her crying AT ALL next season, because crying seems the quickest way to make people tire of a character.

I started laughing half way thru this post. The writing was so bad this season. LOL

Edited May 20, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[dtissagirl]

Wow, Ceylon5, that rundown is so accurate. Thanks for doing the dirty job of writing it all down. And it makes me realize that this entire season really was planned/written around plot points instead of character development.

Oliver and Felicity need to end the season in a ~happily ever after, and Oliver stripped out of the Arrow persona. How to get there? Who cares, let's ship stall for 22 episodes!

Laurel needs to be Black Canary by episode whatever number that was, organic motivation? Who cares, she had a suit already made hidden in her closet just for the occasion!

Malcolm needs to be Ra's at the end of the season? Let's make Ra's a title, let's make the previous Ra's a yawning bore, let's make EVERYONE behave stupidly so we get there.

Oh, and we need to sell Brandon Routh as a viable lead man in an upcoming spinoff, so let's NOT give Felicity her own storyline so he can have his and she's his support staff.

So much bitterness.

[wonderwall]

Well if it makes any difference, now that the romance is out of the way, next season the show can focus more on Felicity with the introduction of her father? I'm very very very slightly hopeful. 

 

But yeah, I don't get how a lot of people have been zeroing in on Felicity being 'ruined' and by extension Olicity ruining the show. There were larger issues at hand and people seem blind to that. Maybe it's because they want to remain ignorant of the fact that the show has major issues for reasons. 

 

IMO Olicity wasn't handled well this season (but I'm happy with where they left off). However, I don't feel like Felicity is 'stuck' with Oliver and Arrow mostly because I don't think she would've fit over at Flash because Arrow needs her levity more (when they allow her to be said person who adds levity to the show, that is). That and because I don't feel like Felicity could have a worthwhile function in The Flash. Felicity, IMO always belonged on Arrow (just look at seasons 1 and 2). But because this season was grim/dark, I get why people would be questioning whether Felicity belongs more on the Flash.

 

Oliver's actions affect the characters he interacts with. So if he's being stupid, Felicity is the one who faces the consequences for his stupidity as well. Imo that's one of the biggest things that the writers did wrong this season. Having Oliver's head be stuck in his ass in order to get mileage storyline wise. 

 

In the end it's not a character issue, it's a writing issue. The writers just aren't creative enough.

Edited May 20, 2015 by wonderwall

[AyChihuahua]

My run-down of the how the writing “done wrong” by the characters this season, from worst to least egregious (I had some trouble with the order, because so many were vying for the top spots!):

1) Sara: they killed her for no reason I can make sense of.  ‘Nuff said.  Upside: she’s coming back in another show!

2) Malcolm:  his whole storyline is stupid.  Why isn’t he dead?  Upside: can’t think of one – why isn’t he dead?

3) Oliver: stupid “I love you but can’t” relationship limbo with Felicity; constantly falling on his sword, both literally and figuratively throughout the season – lesson already learned, Oliver, please move on!; not confiding in his team (see previous point); trusting/working with Malcolm – and stop saving his life, for goodness sake – if you hadn’t saved him “for Tommy” back in season 1, you would have saved over 500 lives, including Tommy’s.  How is this still an unlearned lesson?  Jeez!!; everything he did while ‘undercover’ (mess up his friendship with Diggle, marry Nyssa, make his friends think he was killing them, etc.); he didn’t do the salmon ladder at all that I can recall.  Upside: finally told Thea he’s the Arrow.

4) Nyssa: was repeatedly defeated by Oliver; got locked up in the Arrow cave; got stuck with Laurel’s training; stole a lethal bioweapon from her father and then proceeded to just carry it about on her person for the next few months until she was captured (with plenty of warning) again, with it still on her.  Why didn’t you destroy it or turn it over to the CDC (or at least to Felicity) or hide it or SOMETHING, Nyssa?!?!? What was the long term plan here?!?!?  Soooooo stupid (for me, this was the dumbest of all the dumb things done this season by any character); was forced into marriage with Oliver, rape pending; didn’t get to kill her father or Malcolm (or Al Sahim); had to kneel to Malcolm, who murdered her beloved.  Upside: She got to briefly live a semi-normal life and learn gross new ways to eat junk food.

5) Thea: her whole storyline sucked.  From hanging with her crappy dad, to being drugged and made to kill Sara, to having her boyfriend not tell her about the fake death thing and take off on her once she did know, to getting stabbed and stuck in the magic hot tub, it all sucked.  Upside: she handled being told about Oliver being the Arrow really well; she’s learned self-defence, which every girl should know; she shot Oliver, which we all wanted to do.  [side note: I give up with the insta-ninja’s on this show.  Clearly it’s a Thing.  I’ve stopped caring.]

6) Ra’s: giant waste of space.  Upside: he’s dead now.

7) Ray: everything in his storyline that made him seem stalkerish; having to be the unnecessary alternative love interest for Felicity;  not being used as an effective rival for Oliver; getting himself and Felicity isolated from the rest of the story.  Upside: he gave Felicity a good job; he built a fancy superhero suit; he went out with a bang.

8) Lance: didn’t get told Sara was dead for most of the season; turned back into annoying S1 Lance as a result; drinking again.  Upside: he’s a Captain now?  Though he still can’t tell his men what to do and have them listen to him, so really, what’s the point?

9) The whole flash-back family, whose names I can’t be bothered to remember: the flash-backs were so boring my mind goes numb thinking about them; two of them died and the other has retreated into depressed solitude.  Upside: Two of them are dead and hopefully took those flash-backs to the afterlife with them.

10) Felicity: stuck in Oliver’s crappy love limbo; got a pointless and unnecessary alternative love story which, to add insult to injury, she didn’t even get to end herself; forced into an inorganic friendship with Laurel; her not-so-late boyfriend tried to kill her; unsurprisingly, this all made her cry.  Upside: Awesome mother; Goth Felicity; she had a good job which will probably, inexplicably morph into her owning a billion dollar business; she finally got to have sex; she continued to save the city with Diggle even with Oliver gone.  Oh, also, she saved Oliver’s life, which is useful for the show as a whole - he’s rather pivotal to the plot, such as it is.

11) Diggle: inconsistency regarding whether he should be side-lined for the sake of his family or not; inconsistent advice to Oliver on different occasions; helping Oliver save Malcolm (why, people, why?); getting generally side-lined for all the masks; having his friendship with Oliver mucked up again (we did this in S1, remember?  Can we please stop recycling plots?  Pretty please?).  Upside: baby Sara; married Lyla; kept the team going with Felicity even during Oliver’s many time-outs.

12) Laurel: insta-Canary; didn’t call the cops when Sara died; buried her sister in secrecy and didn’t tell her father for months; dumb canary cry.  Upside: less of her doing terrible things to the law; she’s Black Canary, if you like that sort of thing, and has her canary cry, which seemed to please some easy-to-please folks; she wasn’t kidnapped that I can recall this season (wasn’t paying close attention, though).

13) Roy: didn’t tell his girlfriend about his fake-death plan, before or after, and then took off on her after she found out.  Upside: got to save Oliver from jail; tried to help the family of the cop he unknowingly killed; tried to atone for his mistakes.  His was the least mishandled story of the year, excepting his treatment of Thea at the end.

 

Smaller characters like the boxing-teacher dude, Deadshot and Cupid didn’t fare any better story-wise.  Even Lyla got kidnapped by Oliver and used as a reason to ruin Diggle and Oliver’s friendship.  Nice going, show, you left no-one unscathed by your astounding crappiness.  How very egalitarian.

 

Anyhow, for me, Felicity fared a lot better than many of the other characters in terms of having the plot kick her characterisation to hell.  I do, however, notice one glaring difference between Felicity and every single other person mentioned above (apart from Flashback Child): she’s the only non-fighter out of all of them.  The Last Remaining Non-Ninja!  Though, when she saved Oliver in the ATOM suit, many people complained about that too (though it’s about a million times more believable that she knew how to use a suit she helped build than any of the insta-Ninjas’ sudden fighting prowess).  All is apparently forgiven if a) you don’t ever cry (except Oliver – he’s allowed to cry in a manly way), and b) you put on a ridiculous costume and get in fights.  Nyssa had a shocking season, but people sympathise with her and still think she’s awesome anyway, writing to the contrary notwithstanding.  If people can do that for her (and Thea and the others), why not for Felicity too?  That’s what’s bugging me.  They had better not have her crying AT ALL next season, because crying seems the quickest way to make people tire of a character.

I'm pretty sure I love you, and I totally agree that the only one who was well-written basically all season was Roy.  I think Thea ended up okay, but I really hate that she was just happily chilling with her mass murderer father for months.  Who ever would have thought ROY HARPER would be the best and most consistently-written character, for God's sake?  God what a suck season.

[Sakura12]

I just saw some gifs of Laurel "fighting" and wow can you tell it's a stunt double with it almost all shot from behind. It would be nearly impossible to film a fight scene with both sisters fighting side by side. They'd want to get Caity's face for the fight scene and have to hide the stunt double for Laurel. 

[wonderwall]

I just saw some gifs of Laurel "fighting" and wow can you tell it's a stunt double with it almost all shot from behind. It would be nearly impossible to film a fight scene with both sisters fighting side by side. They'd want to get Caity's face for the fight scene and have to hide the stunt double for Laurel. 

 

I think they're banking on Laurel wearing the mask most of the time so people won't notice. 

[DrSpaceman10]

I don't really mind if an actor has to use a stunt double for fight scenes because, for me, the acting is the much more important part. Willa uses a stunt double a lot, but her acting is believable (imo), so it works. I think it really comes down to whether the actor can sell it. 

Edited May 20, 2015 by DrSpaceman10

[wonderwall]

There are times when I really like KCs acting (when she asked Oliver why it was so easy for him to lie to her, usually her scenes with Quentin, her fun scenes with Nyssa, her lawyer scenes), but most of the time her acting leaves me cold because IMO it's really stiff. Not only that but her movements seem stiff a lot of the times too which doesn't translate well when KC is doing the fight scene or when Laurel walks (it looks like she has a perpetual stick up her butt. And I didn't even notice it until someone pointed it out to me). 

 

But these are just sort of my observations. I honestly don't really care enough about KC or Laurel to be bothered by it.

 

Emily has also made some questionable acting choices this season too, but I've mostly been pleased with what she's done. I'm not a fan of her quivering voice, I think she should use it sparingly because doing it all the time sort of makes it lose its effect. And I really want her to enunciate more but that's just it.

Edited May 20, 2015 by wonderwall

[Sakura12]

KC is failing at the acting part for me then. I didn't like Laurel before she was fighting. I'm going to call her out on that because she can't even do that part of the character. 

[doesntworkonwood]

I don't really mind if an actor has to use a stunt double for fight scenes because, for me, the acting is the much more important part. Willa uses a stunt double a lot, but her acting is believable (imo), so it works. I think it really comes down to whether the actor can sell it. 

I think that the directing and camera are much more important than an actor/actress using or not using a stunt double. However, whilst it's not the actors fault that it's obvious that there is a stunt double, it does make it harder for the actor to sell it to me, and the actor does have to work that much harder. 

 

Take Matt Nable for instance. I'm not a fan of his portrayal of Ra's. I admit that I wasn't happy with his casting, but I did try to give him a chance at the beginning. Because it was fairly obvious that he used a stunt double during the topless fight, it made it a lot harder for me to believe that Ra's could actually take Oliver and was a good enough fighter to almost kill him. That, added to the fact that I don't think Nable has enough gravitas for a role like Ra's, his completely non-threatening demeanor, and the fact that his entire storyline was fairly nonsensical meant that Ra's is, in my book, the worst major villain the show has had. I still cannot compute how he defeated Oliver at all. 

[tarotx]

I don't think an actor has to do their own stunts. But when you kill a character whose actor does for one that doesn't, and the killing is for no good reason, it blows. Laurel also doesn't have a believable back story for her mask alias so that also plays against her believability. So it's really mostly the writing and creative decisions imo.

Edited May 21, 2015 by tarotx

[olicityfan25]

Funny they "kill" the actors that can do their own fighting (Oliver and Sara) yet keep these storylines going of fake fighters using stunt doubles like Laurel and Ra's.

[BunsenBurner]

There are times when I really like KCs acting (when she asked Oliver why it was so easy for him to lie to her, usually her scenes with Quentin, her fun scenes with Nyssa, her lawyer scenes), but most of the time her acting leaves me cold because IMO it's really stiff. Not only that but her movements seem stiff a lot of the times too which doesn't translate well when KC is doing the fight scene or when Laurel walks (it looks like she has a perpetual stick up her butt. And I didn't even notice it until someone pointed it out to me). 

 

But these are just sort of my observations. I honestly don't really care enough about KC or Laurel to be bothered by it.

 

Emily has also made some questionable acting choices this season too, but I've mostly been pleased with what she's done. I'm not a fan of her quivering voice, I think she should use it sparingly because doing it all the time sort of makes it lose its effect. And I really want her to enunciate more but that's just it.

I watched the last 5 episodes with friends. They were brutal about KC saying that she had a Botox treatment again and that her stunt double was too obvious. When she was portraying agitation, fear or anger her words all came out the same, we searched for the right terminology to express what she was doing and the only word we could come up with was staccato. Short abrupt detached words. It was weird since it's a musical term but we couldn't come up with anything better. Will not go into the really mean stuff. The sad part to me though is that they are comic book fans and they love BC but not her as BC because her origin story was BS.

 

In regards to Felicity we noticed there were continuity problems with her lipstick color changing in the same scenes. They also felt that they made her just plain stupid and sappy and felt bad for EBR having to act the part that the writers had written. 

 

All were in agreement that the main problem with Season 3 was the writing. So much of it made no sense. We have agreed to watch the first 3 episodes of Season 4 to decide if we will continue to watch together.  We have also decided to not watch the Flash next year just too juvenile and stupid.

 

 

Edited May 21, 2015 by BunsenBurner

[tv echo]

Anyhow, for me, Felicity fared a lot better than many of the other characters in terms of having the plot kick her characterisation to hell.  I do, however, notice one glaring difference between Felicity and every single other person mentioned above (apart from Flashback Child): she’s the only non-fighter out of all of them.  The Last Remaining Non-Ninja!  Though, when she saved Oliver in the ATOM suit, many people complained about that too (though it’s about a million times more believable that she knew how to use a suit she helped build than any of the insta-Ninjas’ sudden fighting prowess).  All is apparently forgiven if a) you don’t ever cry (except Oliver – he’s allowed to cry in a manly way), and b) you put on a ridiculous costume and get in fights.  Nyssa had a shocking season, but people sympathise with her and still think she’s awesome anyway, writing to the contrary notwithstanding.  If people can do that for her (and Thea and the others), why not for Felicity too?  That’s what’s bugging me.  They had better not have her crying AT ALL next season, because crying seems the quickest way to make people tire of a character.

THIS.  SO MUCH.  I once pointed out that Tatsu cried a lot in her last episode this season, but she also had some awesome fight scenes as Katana - so no hate there.

Edited May 21, 2015 by tv echo

[Chaser]

In the 3.23 episode thread they are discussing the final battle scene, which brings me to my bitterness. I feel the stunts have taken a dive in quality. They used to be such a highlight, but now its maybe a move or two that's cool. Arrow v Slade was amazing and Emmy-worthy work, Oliver v Ra's was slow and sloppy.

 

I know part of that is because Oliver 'died' and the action was left to Laurel and Roy. Both of then require heavy uses of stunt doubles, so they are limited on what they can do with the characters….when they are supposed to be good and not suck or there for getting knocked out. Which leads me another problem, the stunts doubles were so obvious. I don't know if its an oversight on the part of the stunt team or they just gave up on trying to hide them.

 

This bitterness may also be related to the fact that I just watched the AOS finale and their fight scenes have stepped up in a huge way this season. I was really impressed with all of them. In particular the Bobbi v Ward one, it was brutal but also so creative. Any scene with May and I fully believe that Skye could kick Laurel's ass.

Edited May 21, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[nksarmi]

Apparently people are talking about this new promo for The Flash and Arrow and apparently only Barry, Oliver, and Laurel are in it? *sighs* Someone in the CW PR department really has a hard on for Laurel/masks. That irritates me A LOT. Like fine, put Laurel in there, but put Diggle, Caitlin, Cisco, and Felicity in there too. If not then just only put in Barry and Oliver. smh

Are you talking about the "Defy" CW promo?  Because frankly I was surprised it had a LOT more of Barry than Oliver and there was even a clip from the LoT trailer.  Sure it had Laurel, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

[nksarmi]

KC is failing at the acting part for me then. I didn't like Laurel before she was fighting. I'm going to call her out on that because she can't even do that part of the character. 

I typically think the problem for me isn't KC, but how she is being written.  I don't know for sure if that is true, but I feel like I've felt for Laurel exactly what I am suppose to feel for her given how she is being written.

 

-I liked her with Tommy as far as I'm concerned, that was a positive relationship for her.  But I strongly disliked when she slept with Oliver and I think we were supposed to feel that way.

-I hated her spiral into booze and I really don't think we were supposed to feel sorry for her there, but dislike who she was becoming until she overcame it.  I probably would have been on her side in season two (because really Sara and Oliver were being jerks to her in a lot of ways) if she hadn't been in self-destruct mode. 

-I have had mixed feelings about her this year and I think we were supposed to like her more - but the writing failed with her lying to her dad about Sara, etc...

 

So for me, I'm not sure there has been a moment when the writing of Laurel was likable, but KC failed to deliver.  The only thing I can put on her is that she fails to make her character lovable despite the bad writing like some other actors have managed. And I can't read her interviews lol.

[AyChihuahua]

In the 3.23 episode thread they are discussing the final battle scene, which brings me to my bitterness. I feel the stunts have taken a dive in quality. They used to be such a highlight, but now its maybe a move or two that's cool. Arrow v Slade was amazing and Emmy-worthy work, Oliver v Ra's was slow and sloppy.

Even SA's stuntwork has really decreased in quality.  The fight v. Ra's, SA was slow and sloppy and honestly seemed kind of bored.  Now, maybe that's not his fault, maybe he has to move more slowly bc the other guy is or something?  But one of my all-time fave stunt scenes was him parkouring up and down and into buildings trying to save the DA in the episode (Salvation?) from that nutty vigilante in the first season.  It was AWESOME, and you could see SA's face the whole time.  I remember being incredibly impressed that this actor could do that himself.  I really can't remember just being flat-out impressed by any stunts this season, although I missed a lot post-The Climb (which was also kind of slow and had way too many shots of Nable's stunt double).  I would forgive a lot on this show if the stunts were cool again, and not just the fight scenes, but the classic simple stunts like rooftop chases and such. 

[Password]

I've not been blown away by the stunts this season either. I think the Slade vs Team Arrow fight in the foundry in season 2 was one of the best sequences ever.

I almost feel like because the story is so poor it affects my action viewing experience too. For example, the motor cycle jousting looked ridiculous IMO. I can't even name my favourite action scene. The horror.

[Chaser]

Favourite S3 stunt scene: Oliver in a black tee, punching air. I'm like half joking with that answer

 

But I'm not sure there is a stand out stunt sequence, most of them I find have been tainted with the stupid or ridiculous. Laurel falls off a car but then jumps out a window to a helicopter, Laurel can't take out a mugger but then holds her own against the LOA, Roy gets knocked out all over the place but he can fight the LOA too, Laurel jumps off a building without a rope. Motorcycle jousting…what? Boxing Glove Arrow…comic element but totally stupid looking. 

 

S2 had three of the best action sequences ever: Sara and Oliver with the switching of the weapons, Slade v Team Arrow, Slade v Arrow w/ flashbacks. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[catahoulamama]

S2 had three of the best action sequences ever: Sara and Oliver with the switching of the weapons, Slade v Team Arrow, Slade v Arrow w/ flashbacks. 

 

CL and SA worked so well together in fight sequences and the fact that they were both doing most, if not all, of the fighting really raised the bar IMO.  The loss of that definitely affected the quality of the stunts/fight sequences in the show this season.  I think the fact that they now have so many masks/"heroes" on the show who rely very heavily on stunt doubles limits what kind of scenes they can shoot and how they shoot them. In addition, Oliver was "dead"/missing and/or off the streets for a good portion of this season, so the one guy on cast who does his own stunt/fight work was sidelined.  If the biggest concern while shooting is trying to hide the stunt double, the scenes won't look nearly as intense/realistic as they did in S2 when that wasn't a factor. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by catahoulamama

[AyChihuahua]

The weapons-switching was so cool, plus such an awesome way to show what badasses those two were.

[Sakura12]

This will forever remain one of my favorite scenes.

 

I can't believe the took that away to give it to Laurel. I hope we get some more scenes like this in LoT. Stephen does seem happy that Caity's back. I think like most of us that was one of the EP's decisions he was not happy with. 

[Chaser]

It's so gross. There is really nothing wrong with the concept of taking the mantle or honoring one's legacy, but the way they have done it on Arrow is wrong. Laurel took Sara's name, she took her costume, she took her voice, she got her girlfriend, she got on her team. And the thing is half of this stuff could have been so much less creepy. Have Laurel wear Sara's sister's costume once due to an emergency and then show her getting a new one. Have someone else give Laurel the name of Black Canary (a reporter, Team Arrow, Nyssa) and have her be uncomfortable with it at first because she feels its wrong to take her Sara's name. Give Laurel a better argument than 'Go to Hell' when someone points out you're just looking for a high (something Laurel had actually admitted earlier). And seriously, don't give Laurel lines about Sara stealing her life a season prior … and then proceed to have Laurel SWF Sara's life. 

 

 

This will forever remain one of my favorite scenes.

 

I can't believe the took that away to give it to Laurel. I hope we get some more scenes like this in LoT. Stephen does seem happy that Caity's back. I think like most of us that was one of the EP's decisions he was not happy with. 

This kind of partnership in the field, I can't see them being able to sell. I don't care how good they make Laurel next season, SA won't be able to pull off that look Oliver is giving Sara in the bottom right gif with Laurel. 

Edited May 21, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Guest]

Oh, that weapon switch scene is one of my favorite fight/stunt scenes too. I always come back to that one. That and the Slade/Oliver fight switch between past and present in the s2 finale. That was amazing. 

 

So yeah, I agree with the comments here. The stunts are not what they used to be. Another consequence of The Flash maybe? Especially if they split their stunt team.

[DrSpaceman10]

As far as I know David Ramsey has a martial arts background, so maybe when he gets a costume the EPs will let him go out into the field again. I did enjoy his fight scene in 3x10 against Brick. 

[calliope1975]

Olicity's my OTP, but I saw a ton of chemistry in that weapon switching scene. I could have gotten on board that version of BC/GA. 

 

The stunts did seem to degrade this year, and I'm not sure why. I believe they had the same stunt coordinator and fight coordinator. I used to work with the stunt community, and I adore all of those crazy people. I have such respect for their talent and what they're able to do. 

[catahoulamama]

It's so gross. There is really nothing wrong with the concept of taking the mantle or honoring one's legacy, but the way they have done it on Arrow is wrong. Laurel took Sara's name, she took her costume, she took her voice, she got her girlfriend, she got on her team. And the thing is half of this stuff could have been so much less creepy. Have Laurel wear Sara's sister's costume once due to an emergency and then show her getting a new one. Have someone else give Laurel the name of Black Canary (a reporter, Team Arrow, Nyssa) and have her be uncomfortable with it at first because she feels its wrong to take her Sara's name. Give Laurel a better argument than 'Go to Hell' when someone points out you're just looking for a high (something Laurel had actually admitted earlier). And seriously, don't give Laurel lines about Sara stealing her life a season prior … and then proceed to have Laurel SWF Sara's life. 

 

 

This kind of partnership in the field, I can't see them being able to sell. I don't care how good they make Laurel next season, SA won't be able to pull off that look Oliver is giving Sara in the bottom right gif with Laurel. 

 

That look could have been a genuine emotion from SA - it must have been a blast for them to go "all out" in scenes like that. They certainly looked like they were having fun with it all.

 

And ITA, calliope1975, I would have had no problem with *that* BC/GA team.  It's really too bad they chose the route they did with the Canary/Black Canary storyline.

[Chaser]

Olicity's my OTP, but I saw a ton of chemistry in that weapon switching scene. I could have gotten on board that version of BC/GA. 

 

The stunts did seem to degrade this year, and I'm not sure why. I believe they had the same stunt coordinator and fight coordinator. I used to work with the stunt community, and I adore all of those crazy people. I have such respect for their talent and what they're able to do. 

Same. I can't deny there is chemistry between those too.

 

At a Con, Stephen was asked about chemistry and he connected chemistry with friendship. He said that (paraphrase) you can have two characters that are supposed to have this great love and yet something is just off or missing. He says its because the actors aren't friends in real life. I thought that was an interesting perspective. He isn't shy about praising Caity Lotz.

Edited May 21, 2015 by 10Eleven12

[Password]

Which episode was the weapons swap?

[AyChihuahua]

The highly-underrated "Crucible."  Either the 3rd or 4th episode of season 2.  It also has "I believe you ordered the crate of stolen military weapons, Mr. Queen" sexual tension moment.  

[Password]

Really? Did Oliver know at that point she was Sara?

[apinknightmare]

Really? Did Oliver know at that point she was Sara?

Yes

[Password]

*snort*

In my memory he found out at the end of episode 4 and episode 5 was "The League of Assassins" which was Sara centred. Also the episode where she was introduced to TA.

[Sakura12]

It was when Oliver wanted to test Sara, to see how well she knew how to fight.