Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[KirkB]

I'm playing devil's advocate here, not so much trying to give Laurel the benefit of the doubt, since I'm not sure she really deserves it. In Heir to the Demon Laurel saw a masked woman and some ninjas kidnap her mother. She may not realize Nyssa was that masked woman.

 

Yeah, it doesn't really make any sense, but then again very little about that scene did.

Edited May 22, 2014 by KirkB

[calliope1975]

Not gonna lie, that jacket bequeathing scene took me straight out of the scene precisely because I saw KC, the actress, rather than Laurel, the character, on my screen. The shit-eating grin was just so out of context to what the scene was about. Remove the BC-mantle-passing connotations, which shouldn't have even entered Laurel's mind at the time that her sister was leaving her whole family again for parts unknown with shady ass people, and it's a leather jacket that Sara is giving to her as a remembrance of sorts.

 

 

Good point. Because of all the discussions we've had here and at TWOP, plus the interviews, I hadn't even considered that Laurel has no basis to want to become a vigilante. She's shown no interest in that aspect other than wanting to arrest Arrow. Sure, she has some basic self-defense moves, but that's just being a smart women in this day and age. Felicity was admiring Black Canary before she even knew who she was, just based on what she was accomplishing. That line could have gone to Laurel. She could have been conflicted with the good the Arrow and BC were having on the city with her guilt/anger over Tommy. Why would I think that now, suddenly, Laurel now wants to go through massive training to fight crime on a street level? Makes no sense. 

 

If I didn't know the comic back story, or what the name Dinah Laurel Lance represents, and just watched the show, I would be surprised that BC is the direction Laurel would take.

 

I don't blame KC for the acting here, I blame the EPs for not telling her her sister is going off to destroy what's left of her soul.

 

 

I do blame KC. She might not watch the show (which is fine, many actors don't for a variety of reasons,) but she's read the scripts and is at the table reads. There was no reason for Laurel to be that damn giddy based on 45 previous scripts. So yes, I completely blame KC for that terrible reaction. I also blame the director for not shutting that down either.  

 

ETA: Fixed Laurel's name. 

Edited May 22, 2014 by calliope1975

[Carrie Ann]

Do they really think the name holds that much power? Also considering Laurel is not the name of the Black Canary. The BC's name is Dinah (that is the only name she ever went by) and the only Dinah Lance we've met was played by Alex Kingston. 

I thought KC's character's name was Dinah Laurel Lance--I thought she introduced herself that way in court once. Not that it matters to me in the slightest in terms of making her the BC.

[catrox14]

I have two thoughts on Laurel's reaction to getting that jacket or even that whole scene.

 

IMO, the only smiles that Laurel should have had were a melancholy filled closed lipped smile when they hugged. That would have communicated that she is very worried about her sister and is trying to be supportive of the decision. Then when she received the jacket, her smile should have remained closed mouth, but possibly changed to a wry smile acknowledging the absurdity of it.

 

But her broad smile only told me "neener neener neeeener, I got your jacket. And I know Olllie'sss sssecret.  And you are going far far awaaaaay.." 

 

What I cannot figure out if that was not intended that way, why the fuck did they leave it in? Why would the director leave that giddy smile in? Did they just not have enough time to do another take? 

 

So to give the show any credit for being clever, I circle back to Laurel being devious and jealous and wanting Sara's life.  That is the only way that smile matches that scene. 

[quarks]

What I cannot figure out if that was not intended that way, why the fuck did they leave it in? Why would the director leave that giddy smile in? Did they just not have enough time to do another take?

 

 

I doubt they had time to do more than five or six takes - maybe not even that much.

 

Arrow gets about a week to film each episode, and that finale had two hellish, hellish scenes to film that I suspect used up much of the filming schedule: the tunnel scene (which I'm assuming was a several hours shoot) and, even worse, the sinking freighter scene. Arrow usually films with two units so they could have been rushing Amell back and forth for some of that, which explains why so many of the tunnel shots focused on other people, but he's in a lot of the freighter scene with the water tank shots.  And that's not even counting the Slade/Felicity/Oliver scene, although the lighting/blocking for that scene didn't look quite as nightmarish and they probably were able to wrap that scene relatively quickly. Probably.

 

Nathan Fillion was talking about this issue with Castle/Firefly/Serenity - the tightness of a television shooting versus the comparably relaxed period with a film, and how that tightness gets a lot worse when, like Castle and Arrow, you switch locations/sets every episode, which is why Castle keeps its expository scenes in the precinct and Castle's loft when at all possible.  If memory serves Arrow only used three pre-existing sets on the finale, and then transformed Laurel's apartment set to the Hong Hong set, which makes matters even worse.  

 

Anyway, what this means is, if you don't get it during your shooting period, you don't get it - television shooting schedules just don't leave time to say, "Ok, we'll try again tomorrow," because for tomorrow you are already scheduled - and if you are doing location shooting which Arrow preschedules and gets permits for, you're kinda stuck with the options of either using the footage you have anyway, or just cutting the scene. In this case, I don't think the show could have just cut the scene, since that would have left Sara's fate in the air.

 

It looks to me as if they did at least four takes for that scene. Cassidy said she was grinning and having problems containing her joy - which is understandable, really; if I'm complaining about how Laurel is written, I can only imagine what she's feeling, and now, she gets a scene that not only means she isn't fired, but will finally get to be the kick ass character she said she signed on for in the first place. I also suspect she spent the time until that film was screened on tenterhooks, expecting a last minute script change at any minute (this happens a lot), and the director just didn't have time to let her get over her relief.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Anyway, what this means is, if you don't get it during your shooting period, you don't get it - television shooting schedules just don't leave time to say, "Ok, we'll try again tomorrow," because for tomorrow you are already scheduled - and if you are doing location shooting which Arrow preschedules and gets permits for, you're kinda stuck with the options of either using the footage you have anyway, or just cutting the scene.

 

 

Part of the reason that I don't believe that the EPs are 100% fully committed to Laurel as Black Canary is because I think that they are unsure of how KC is going to be able to handle the physicality of the role.  Look, I know that most of the fighting is going to be done by the stunt double, but they are going to have to have Laurel throwing punches and stuff like that.  They can't just have the stunt double do the fighting as Laurel and never show her face! 

 

From what I gather, Stephen and Caity had very little time to learn their fight choreography.  I don't know if Katie Cassidy has any dance training in her background, but I would imagine that it is very difficult for some people to learn and memorize all the right moves in such a short amount of time.  With such a tight shooting schedule, there just isn't enough extra time to spend on something that isn't working.  And going by what I have seen of KC's "acting" so far, I'm not confident in her ability to pull Black Canary off...I think it is asking an awful lot of her.

[Sakura12]

She doesn't go by Dinah. That is the only name the BC went by, no one ever called her Laurel.

[catrox14]

quarks, I understand about the tight shooting schedule on a TV show and how they don't have time for 5 or 6 takes.  If they wanted the beat to be Cassidy being happy at having the memento from her sister, then she should have played it much different.  If Cassidy can't get there in 3 or 4 takes that's on her.

 

Regardless, they could have edited the scene to exclude the shot of Laurel's grinning mug. They could have shown Sara putting the coat on her and then cut to Cassidy turning back around the face Sara with the coat on.  They clearly specifically wanted to show Laurel's face.  So either they didn't care that Cassidy didn't act that scene properly IMO for the nature of the scene, or they wanted to communicate something else specific to the audience.  

[statsgirl]

 

I don't know if Katie Cassidy has any dance training in her background, but I would imagine that it is very difficult for some people to learn and memorize all the right moves in such a short amount of time.

So true.  When I took adult ballet, the hardest thing was to be able to remember the sequence of dance moves, and then to make it look natural on top of that.

 

So here's my question:  Katie Cassidy said that she's started working with a trainer in anticipation of next season. But if she knew from the time she was hired that she was going to be the Black Canary, why the hell didn't she start training then?  It's not something you can pick up over a month or two.  Plus, maybe if she'd been training for a couple of years, we might not be arguing if she has the physique to be the BC because she'd have it.

 

Wouldn't that raise some flags for Laurel that her sister went through some awful traumas?

 

That's one of the (many) problems with Laurel and KC's portrayal of her.  Laurel is fixated on Ollie/Arrow/Oliver and what it means to have him a string on her bow. There was a moment in Streets of Fire when she actually paid attention to Sara, but by the jacket scene, it was all about her again and how Oliver needs her.

I thought KC's character's name was Dinah Laurel Lance--I thought she introduced herself that way in court once. Not that it matters to me in the slightest in terms of making her the BC.

 

That was the name of the Black Canary when AK was writing the GA/BC comics.

 

That GIF is simply proof to me, after the recent KC interviews, that she's not a good actress.  She can't turn her inner happiness off when she needs to be a bit less gleeful and she can't seem impassioned in a sex scene when her partner is a married man in real life.  How the hell is she going to be able to carry the BC mantle?

 

I don't understand how she's a professional actress at all if she can't separate what's in the script from what's in real life. I although thought it was unprofessional of her to call Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki dicks because they kept trying to break her out of character on set.  Yes, it was a nasty thing to do, but you don't say things like that when the world is watching.

 

When she's in a scene, it's like she isn't aware of what anyone else is going through other than her character, and her character is a reflection of herself and her personal interpretations of her own experiences. 

 

I wonder if there is something to this Hollywood royalty thing after all.  Maybe she got handed roles because of her family that other people had to fight for or never got at all. I haven't seen her in anything other than Arrow and a couple of Ruby clips but I'm not impressed by her acting. She's beautiful in a kind of blank-expression way but if she's channelling her real life on the screen, that's not acting.

Edited May 22, 2014 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

Yes, it was a nasty thing to do, but you don't say things like that when the world is watching.

 

FWIW, by all accounts, they pretty much do it to nearly every guest star and it's all done in good nature comraderie building, so it's not like they were picking on her specifically. It's almost like a right of passage there I think. That's just based on watching some of their con interviews and watching some outtakes and what not. Cassidy messed up plenty of her own accord without their help. From the outtakes I've seen, if the screwup is due to another person's off screen behavior in almost every case the person will look over at whomever is screwing around with them and side eye them.  But they all laugh and do it again.  And SPN has just as tight of a shooting schedule as Arrow. 

[Sakura12]

From what I gather, Stephen and Caity had very little time to learn their fight choreography. I don't know if Katie Cassidy has any dance training in her background, but I would imagine that it is very difficult for some people to learn and memorize all the right moves in such a short amount of time. With such a tight shooting schedule, there just isn't enough extra time to spend on something that isn't working. And going by what I have seen of KC's "acting" so far, I'm not confident in her ability to pull Black Canary off...I think it is asking an awful lot of her.

Caity said that most of the time she learned the choreography right before they shot the scene. So it had to be memorized quickly. And as a trained dancer it was easier for her.

[SonofaBiscuit]

So here's my question:  Katie Cassidy said that she's started working with a trainer in anticipation of next season. But if she knew from the time she was hired that she was going to be the Black Canary, why the hell didn't she start training then?

 

 

I figure that in the first season, Katie was probably told that the intention was for Laurel to become Black Canary (or maybe she just assumed this), so she didn't worry about it.  Going into the second season, however, it became apparent with the casting of Caity Lotz that perhaps they were thinking about taking the BC role away from Katie.  I know they claimed that Caity was just a part of Laurel's journey to become Black Canary, but I can't say that I ever really believed that based on what was playing out on my screen.

 

Maybe the EPs informed Cassidy during season 2 that they weren't sure if she was going to become the Black Canary.  This could possibly explain why she suddenly went radio silent and didn't bother to promote the show anymore.  Apparently, she was pissed!  I would think that this would be a good time to start training and prove to the EPs what you can do, but maybe Cassidy thought, "why bother?"  She must have convinced the EPs somehow, though, because all of the sudden we started getting all of these happy and upbeat interviews from Cassidy.  I have a feeling that the timing of these happy interviews probably coincides with the filming of the last three episodes and Laurel forcing her way into the Arrow Cave/receiving Sara's black leather jacket.  I would like to know what changed because I really thought they were writing her out of the show.  Damn!   

[pootlus]

So here's my question:  Katie Cassidy said that she's started working with a trainer in anticipation of next season. But if she knew from the time she was hired that she was going to be the Black Canary, why the hell didn't she start training then?  It's not something you can pick up over a month or two.

Well she picked up acting so easily, why would martial arts be any different?

 

;)

[statsgirl]

That's what I was thinking about when I wondered if there was a downside to being Hollywood royalty.  Stephen Amell and Manu Bennett worked their (gorgeous) butts off acting their roles and you can bet that Caity Lotz didn't wait till she was cast as the Canary to start doing the martial arts and fitness training.  But with Katie Cassidy, it's like she just stands back and waits for it all to come to her ... the Canary persona, Oliver's OTP ... secure in the knowledge that it all will without having to do the research (comics) or the training for it.

 

I was talking to someone about KC and how she doesn't fit into the show and this person said that if it's in her contract to be the Black Canary, it could cost the show a lot of money in penalties to get out of it. I thought that contracts bound you to a show and not a character but this other person is in the business so she knows what she's talking about.

 

The budget for Arrow is stretched tight already.  Unless her becoming the Black Canary is going to tank the show (and if they can keep Caity Lotz I don't think it will), I can see them being reluctant not to follow through on it as a business decision.

[Sakura12]

But with Katie Cassidy, it's like she just stands back and waits for it all to come to her

 

I think that's exactly what happened with her casting on this show. She was handed the role because she's a CW staple. So the EP's were kind of stuck with her. Not chem testing with Amell kind of shows that. 

 

I'm wondering if her contract says she was specifically cast as Black Canary, Dinah Laurel Lance or just as Laurel Lance. Because then I think they can get away with it if it's the later. If it's never mentioned that she's the Black Canary in writing despite what happens in the comics they can do what they want. 

[statsgirl]

 

 

Cassidy on how losing Quentin would affect Laurel: “It would be devastating, because they’re very close, he’s the closest thing to her. I definitely think it would be a difficult thing for her, but come on, Laurel’s gone through so much. If anybody could deal with it, it’d be her.”

Cassidy on how being the Canary would affect Laurel’s chances with Ollie: “I think that she really embraced the fact that he’s the Arrow, and it made her love him so much more and it made sense going with the comics that she becomes this Canary, because Canary and Arrow are together.

I need to make a resolution not to listen to or read her interviews.  So she's smiling as Sara goes off to risk her life, but losing Quentin would be devastating.

[wonderwall]

 

Just because Laurel’s “island” wasn’t the same as Oliver and Sara’s, it doesn’t mean you get to just disregard it because it wasn’t as extreme. She suffered from depression and addiction.  She went through a struggle and came out of it a stronger person.  Just like Oliver and Sara, she has her own scars she’ll be forced to carry the rest of her life.  The only difference is that her scars aren’t physical.  You can’t just look at her and see that they’re there, but they doesn’t mean they’re not. - From tumblr

 

I found this, and this is the most compelling argument I've seen from a Laurel fan. I still don't buy it. I'm not going to compare what Laurel went through with what Sara and Oliver went through. What Laurel went through (her losing Tommy, depression, alcoholism, etc.) isn't a compelling enough reason for her to suddenly become the Black Canary. I mean, why? Why start fighting bad guys? She doesn't seem like a woman who has gone through these things mere months before... 

 

IDK, what do you guys think?

[Password]

I found this, and this is the most compelling argument I've seen from a Laurel fan. I still don't buy it. I'm not going to compare what Laurel went through with what Sara and Oliver went through. What Laurel went through (her losing Tommy, depression, alcoholism, etc.) isn't a compelling enough reason for her to suddenly become the Black Canary. I mean, why? Why start fighting bad guys? She doesn't seem like a woman who has gone through these things mere months before... 

 

IDK, what do you guys think?

The problem I have with seeing this as Laurel's island is how the writing undercuts it in every way. She's just fine, no consequence for being disbarred. Sara and Oliver have to live with their island every day. Laurel seems to be totally fine with being an alcoholic except when she mentions she needs a meeting. They could have continued with her arc for longer and allowed her to suffer the consequences more visibly as Sara suffers for returning to the LoA and Oliver suffers for killing but not killing Slade.

It's easy to overlook Laurel's grief because it's like it never happened.

[statsgirl]

Thea has gone through worse, and it going through worse right now.  Roy has gone through worse, now  he's lost Thea, and it's going to hit  him again when he realizes he killed a man.

 

I remember Abby's addiction arc on ER. It took over a season and destroyed her marriage.

 

Shouldn't an island change you?  I don't see how Laurel is changed in any way, other than she appears to be getting everything she wants now that Oliver is truly the hero and she can claim  him.  And she'll probably be the DA next season, having blackmailed herself back into the office.  But she's still as delusional as ever, and still expecting the world to revolve around her. That's not what makes a superhero.

 

If losing someone, depression and addiction makes you into a superhero, Quentin should be the first in line.

[Sakura12]

It's not that I don't think alcoholism is a serious issue and difficult to overcome. It's the fact that on this show it barely mattered. It wasn't shown enough for me to really feel for Laurel and what she was going through. One episode she was drinking heavily but not acting at all drunk, then the next she was completely fine, then when she does appear it drunk it turned out she was drugged by Sara's ex. Then finally they show her actually having a problem where Quentin notices it but then in the next episode she's drinking at a family dinner and no one says anything. She did lose her job, but got it back. So she barely felt the consequences for her actions and now she's fine with no lingering effects, so I can't buy she's scarred internally because they are not showing me that on the show. 

 

With Sara and Oliver we've not only seen the hell they've been through we are seeing the effects it has on their souls. They have the physical scars but we also see how much damage was done to them mentally. They still have nightmares about the island and the things they've done. They are not magically all better because they are home. As Slade told Oliver, he hasn't really left the island. It's part of who he is and we see that every episode. Same with League and Sara. We are seeing how the choices they made in the past still affect them now. 

Edited May 23, 2014 by Sakura12

[bluebonnet]

I truly don't have a problem with depression and addiction being a character's island.  I think it's relevant and excellent that the writers wanted to show that not all suffering leaves visual scars.  My problem with it is that there was absolutely nothing believable about it and there were no consequences to Laurel's 'island'.  I didn't even realize she was depressed or addicted until it was spelled out for me.  I don't think I'm the most observant or thoughtful viewer ever, but I do think I'm at least moderately attentive.  Even going back, it's hard to tell that Laurel is meant to be depressed or addicted until we get to the moments were it's spelled out.  The addiction story was just really bad writing and directing because they didn't make it matter in any way.  Didn't allow Laurel to truly suffer consequences for these decisions.  She lost her job only to get it back again, but no one was hurt.  I don't think it's absolutely necessary for someone to have been hurt for this story to work, but the way they showed it only served to make the character to appear even more inept and self-serving than she already was.  It's a superhero show.  The consequences, if not exaggerated and severe, should at least be meaningful in a big and relevant way.  Losing her job means absolutely nothing when she's working for the worst DA office in the universe and she gets it back without having to put in the hard work.  

 

The depression story didn't work simply because I there was no believability in the Laurel/Tommy love.  I didn't buy that she loved him and definitely didn't buy that they had been friends for years.  I don't think this is all the writing fault.  Everything was there with the dialogue and such save for a scene or two (the gold digging dinner scene, especially), but that black hole of chemistry surrounding KC and her acting choices did nothing at all to sell it.  It almost felt like Laurel was more upset that Tommy's death overshadowed any recognition she could have received for saving some super special filing cabinet.  

 

I think depression and addiction would be an amazing 'island' story to explore.  But it needs believability to work.  I believe that Quentin was an alcoholic without any previous bar scenes because he has that gritty, obsessive, intense persona.  I don't even have to see scenes of the Lance family in the years after the QG sunk to know in my bones that Quentin's 'island' was pretty devastating.  All of the consequences are evident with very little exposition.  Quentin wouldn't be the hero cop willing to put his job on the line to work with the vigilante ensuring a better city if he hadn't gone through his island.  On the other hand, Laurel was already participating in blackmail in a roundabout way with The Hood assistance before she even encountered her own island.  I mean, that is if the blackmail is intended to show that Laurel is somehow different or stronger or whatever.  I'm not actually sure what the intent was there other than intending to show that Laurel is somehow different.  She's not.  

[Password]

The writers have done Laurel Lance a real disservice by not caring about her storyline enough. Sara and her awesomeness over shadowed anything Laurel went through, not to mention Sara and Oliver getting back together. If her going out of her way to get what she wants was meant to show us how she learned from her island then fine. She's a villain now, except wait, she's a really good person and loves Oliver with the light of a thousand suns. So what if she blackmailed herself back into employment. She's taking charge and being pointless all at the same time. That is a gift I am certain the EPs never wanted her to possess. I was really disappointed after the Birds of Prey episode when I thought I understood where the show was taking her with the villainy. But it seems like she's just being selectively evil. Maybe that will be her super power from here on in.

They wrote Quentin really well in season 1. I could understand his distrust of the vigilante and his spiral into drinking. But then Mr Paul chews scenery like that.

It seems like Oliver is paying for every year being away from home. His crucible is seemingly never ending and I hope they address this next season because frankly why would you want to continue considering all that he has lost. It's like he's going through a second island. The first having been very physical, the second being very mental and emotional.

[quarks]

I was talking to someone about KC and how she doesn't fit into the show and this person said that if it's in her contract to be the Black Canary, it could cost the show a lot of money in penalties to get out of it. I thought that contracts bound you to a show and not a character but this other person is in the business so she knows what she's talking about.

 

 

I've seen a lot of speculation about this. The one thing that is clear is that her contract states that she will get second billing, whether or not she's in the episode, which in turn ensures that she gets paid, whether or not she's in the episode.  I'm really surprised the CW went along with that; ABC has been dropping people off billing if they aren't in the episode for years now for budget reasons, and Fox has been following their lead for the past couple of years with everything except sorta for Sleepy Hollow, and those shows have much higher budgets than any CW show.

 

That right there is kind of interesting: the one thing that everyone involved with Arrow has been consistent on is the very tight budget. I don't know what Cassidy gets paid per episode, but Amell reportedly gets $30,000 - which is really low for a show lead - plus residuals on post-views. So let's assume it's somewhere around that - maybe a little higher because she was a bit more of a name than Amell was before the show started. Hmm.

 

It's not that I don't think alcoholism is a serious issue and difficult to overcome. It's the fact that on this show it barely mattered.

 

 

I can't second this enough. We did see alcoholism cause issues for Quentin last season, and we saw Laurel go rescue him from bars. It also seems to have been one cause of his divorce and later work issues.

 

But Laurel's alcoholism issue on screen seemed to cause only three issues: one, she was out of work from January through March; two, Oliver yelled at her (but they seem to be friends now again, so) and three, Blood got away for several more months. And the third hurt other people, not Laurel.

 

Speaking of hurting....as the other thread noted, there's been a few comments from Laurel/Oliver shippers saying that this past episode just showed how strong Laurel/Oliver are since Oliver used Felicity as bait to save Laurel, which just proves how much Laurel means to him.

 

Leaving aside for a moment the question of whether or not this actually happened, and focusing on the question that brings me to this thread: How on earth is this a GOOD THING for the Oliver/Laurel relationship? "Oh, our love is so powerful that Oliver will even risk killing one of his closest friends to save me!"  Or "Oliver told another woman he loved her just to save Laurel! HOW SWEET!"

 

(This is often supplemented by, "And Felicity knows how much Oliver loves Laurel, so she was willing to do it," which...doesn't help.)

 

So basically, what this argument says is that this relationship gets not just Oliver and Laurel but other people hurt.  And to be fair, this is true: we've even seen it on screen. This is the major reason Diggle has objected to Laurel: Oliver's attempts to save Laurel have hurt Diggle - more than once. Oliver has almost lost Diggle permanently as an ally over this. Oliver's attempt to call Laurel from the island almost got him and Slade killed.  And if Oliver really did risk Felicity just to save Laurel (I read it as Oliver risked Felicity to stop Slade, not to save Laurel), then you are saying that Oliver was willing to let a close friend die to keep Laurel alive. 

 

I know that "I don't care about other people, I just want you safe!" can be a powerful romantic or familial love trope, I really do. It's even worked very well on this show with Moira Queen being willing to do anything to keep her kids safe, Oliver being willing to kill the Count for Felicity, and even Malcolm Merlyn with "Screw the rest of the city! I'm just hear to protect the daughter who shot me!"  But for some reason applying that to this scenario is bugging me. 

[statsgirl]

In Heir to the Demon, Felicity had two short scenes, one with Moira and one later with Oliver, less than four minutes in total, and I completely believe that she has a fear of abandonment and that it is a very real scar. And I see that she is willing to risk that hurt again to do the right thing, especially for someone she cares about.

 

Why does that work and not Laurel's 'crucible'? 

 

I know that "I don't care about other people, I just want you safe!" can be a powerful romantic or familial love trope, I really do. It's even worked very well on this show with Moira Queen being willing to do anything to keep her kids safe, Oliver being willing to kill the Count for Felicity, and even Malcolm Merlyn with "Screw the rest of the city! I'm just hear to protect the daughter who shot me!"  But for some reason applying that to this scenario is bugging me.

Maybe because while it's okay to hurt other people, ones you don't care about, to keep those you love safe, it's been shown that Oliver does care about Felicity whether it's just as a friend or pre-romantic.  You don't hurt or put into danger people you care about to save someone else you care about. At least you don't if you're not a sociopath.

 

Diggle is right to be mad that Oliver bailed on him to play knight errant to Laurel but at least Oliver didn't have any idea that Diggle would get hurt when it happened.  Setting up Felicity to be kidnapped by Slade was guaranteeing that she would be in grave danger.

 

""No love," quoth he, "but vanity, sets love a task like that.""

Edited May 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[catrox14]

Cassidy on how being the Canary would affect Laurel’s chances with Ollie: “I think that she really embraced the fact that he’s the Arrow, and it made her love him so much more and it made sense going with the comics that she becomes this Canary, because Canary and Arrow are togethe

 

This quote right here, tells me everything I need to know about what Laurel values.  She values him because he has status as a hero now.  Look, I understand that Laurel shouldn't even love Ollie at all considering that he cheated on her with her sister etc etc. But this just really makes Laurel look extremely shallow. I can understand falling in love with a hero....when you don't know the hero and he hasn't cheated on you with your sister!  She didn't seem to particularly love Ollie this season either. So to me this is just hero worship. /rolls eyes

[bluebonnet]

 

I know that "I don't care about other people, I just want you safe!" can be a powerful romantic or familial love trope, I really do. It's even worked very well on this show with Moira Queen being willing to do anything to keep her kids safe, Oliver being willing to kill the Count for Felicity, and even Malcolm Merlyn with "Screw the rest of the city! I'm just hear to protect the daughter who shot me!"  But for some reason applying that to this scenario is bugging me. 

I think it's because Oliver is the hero and heroes don't do that shit.  It works with Moira and Malcolm doing what they can to protect people and Slade avenging his dead love because they aren't written as "good-doers" nor intended to be heroes on an epic scale.  Sure, Moira was a heroic mother and Malcolm was a hero to Thea in that moment and Slade was even a hero to Oliver on the island.  But it's not the same.  

 

It was a setback for Oliver when he killed the Count for Felicity because we know he could have disarmed him instead.  His aim is so good he can sever wires and nerves.  Felicity didn't want Oliver to suffer that setback.  It doesn't work with him being willing to possibly sacrifice Felicity for Laurel because Oliver's development in season 2 was all about trying a different way.  The entire finale was about him doing everything he could to not resort to murder and the idea that he used Felicity because he just loved Laurel too damn much makes his hero arc do a severe U-turn.  Which makes no sense at all when Oliver defines himself as a hero in the unmanned prison scene.  

 

I read it all that Oliver trusted Felicity, not just with his secrets, but with being an active part of his team.  He trusted her strength.  It was a huge task to ask that she overcome her understadable fear but he knew she could handle it.  We previously had Oliver repeatedly trying to send Laurel away from Team Arrow.  The only reasonable argument that those who theorize he would sacrifice Felicity for Laurel is when Oliver used Roy as a test subject with the cure.  However, he was extremely reluctant to do that and Roy would have ended up continuing on his spree and eventually been killed if he hadn't done it.  And of course, there were hints in that scene that there will be consequences next season.  The same cannot be said for Laurel.  She was just too damn happy about everything.  

In Heir to the Demon, Felicity had two short scenes, one with Moira and one later with Oliver, less than four minutes in total, and I completely believe that she has a fear of abandonment and that it is a very real scar. And I see that she is willing to risk that hurt again to do the right thing, especially for someone she cares about.

Why does that work and not Laurel's 'crucible'?

 

I think a large part of it is that EBR can show vulnerability.  But it's also good, consistent writing.  We meet her in a scene where she's awkwardly vulnerable.  Later, we see her go to Walter with the fear that she's being fired.  She then determines that while she doesn't agree with how The Hood handles things, she won't just abandon Walter now that she has resources to keep looking for him.  People with that sort of loyalty who don't abandon others tend to have their own fears of abandonment.  I think EBR still could have sold the fear of abandonment without those previous scenes, but they really did help to further sell it.  Consistent writing helped show that her insecurity in Heir to the Demon wasn't whiny or insincere.  

Edited May 23, 2014 by SystemRemote

[quarks]

Thanks, Statsgirl. I couldn't figure out why that particular argument was bugging me so much, especially on a show which just had Moira Queen unhesitatingly sacrifice herself for Thea, in a completely believable moment. But this:

 

You don't hurt or put into danger people you care about to save someone else you care about. At least you don't if you're not a sociopath.

 

 

I don't want Oliver to be a sociopath.

 

I'm generally ok with the show acknowledging a time skip between the season finale and the start of the next season - I can see that it simplifies things for them - but I will admit I'm sorry that we're not going to see Diggle's scenes with Laurel when/if she returns to the Arrow Cave and starts training with Oliver.  And no, not just because when Sara joined Team Arrow Diggle took his shirt off, which I at least regard as a positive.

 

Anyway, shallow notes aside, this show has well established that Diggle doesn't like Laurel for good reasons. Felicity's been more supportive - she was the one to back up Laurel's theory on Blood, after all. I would have liked to see their initial confrontations.

 

So to me this is just hero worship. /rolls eyes

 

 

I'm actually ok with hero worship in certain cases. I like it with Lois/Superman/Clark, for instance. The problem I have in this case is that Oliver just recently became a hero. He wasn't a hero last season - he was sort of a hero who was trying to help the city, but he was also a serial killer.  And the entire theme of this season has been Oliver trying to figure out what a hero is and how he can be one. So saying "oooh, I love him because he's the Arrow" seems to me to be a misreading of the entire second season.  

[catrox14]

 

So saying "oooh, I love him because he's the Arrow" seems to me to be a misreading of the entire second season.

 

Eh, Cassidy IMO has misread the entire series

[wonderwall]

I wouldn't take what Katie Cassidy says too seriously because:

1. She seems to have a very superficial understanding of Laurel
2. She has never read the comics, and I doubt she's done any extensive research on her character/BC and refuses to do so unless she has been given the green light on her becoming BC which just goes to show how unenthusiastic she is about actually being Laurel Lance. 
3. KC hasn't even seen the finale yet. And the only scene she was actually interested in watching was the one where Sara gave Laurel her jacket and rights to Oliver
4. Half of the things she says only illustrates her lack of understanding of the other characters on the show. It's like she doesn't respect other characters like Felicity, Digg, and Sara. She literally sounds like she's only in it for herself. 
5. No but really, she was asked who Laurel would ask to babysit her dog, and she said she would ask Digg to do it. Clearly she doesn't understand that Digg hates Laurel and that Digg is too good to be a dogsitter. 
6. She has no respect for her own character when she says that Laurel and Oliver are soulmates. Sorry, but I can't buy why she would be okay with Laurel being with someone who was instrumental in tearing her family apart, causing her a lot of grief, AND causing her to lose her sister for more than 5 years.
7. Her interviews are extremely repetitive. Yes KC, we get that you're working out and that you think Laurel and Oliver are soulmates. (read:an extension of how little she understands about who Laurel Lance really is). It's part of her job to understand this, shitty writing and all. If she's confused, ask the EPs the directors the writers, ANYONE. But it seems as though KC is very passive about being Laurel. 

 

Anyways, that's my rant. 

Edited May 23, 2014 by wonderwall

[bluebonnet]

 

She has never read the comics, and I doubt she's done any extensive research on her character/BC and refuses to do so unless she has been given the green light on her becoming BC which just goes to show how unenthusiastic she is about actually being Laurel Lance. 

I actually don't mind that she hasn't read the comics and I sort of wish she wouldn't.  There are times I think it's helpful for actors to be familiar with the source material, but not always.  The only things I really know about the Green Arrow DCU are what I've read on this forum or in some random recaps.  It's enough to tell me that the show isn't really concerned with following canon.  I don't trust that KC has the ability to understand separating canon from show.  What happens in the show should be what influences her acting choices, not what happens in the comics unless she is specifically told to read a certain issue to get an idea of what she needs to be channeling.  Though frankly, if they have to take those steps to get her to act appropriately for a scene, they have serious issues.  I prefer that she stay far far away from the comics and just use the hiatus to watch the show.  

Edited May 23, 2014 by SystemRemote

[statsgirl]

 

The problem I have in this case is that Oliver just recently became a hero. He wasn't a hero last season - he was sort of a hero who was trying to help the city, but he was also a serial killer.

And it's only recently that she's back in love with Oliver.  Other than their one moment last season, she's been either dismissive of him or indifferent to him or angry at him when she realized Sara was sleeping with him again..  But now that she knows that he's the Arrow and a hero, she loves him more than ever, just like she was willing to turn a blind eye to his cheating and reluctance to move their relationship on when he was a rich, attractive frat boy..

 

If the Oliver/Felicity story is hitting all the right beats, Oliver/Laurel is hitting all the wrong ones.

 

Half of the things she says only illustrates her lack of understanding of the other characters on the show. It's like she doesn't respect other characters like Felicity, Digg, and Sara. She literally sounds like she's only in it for herself.

I think she's not really interested in them except as it concerns her character, and she doesn't put together the show as a whole if she even watches it. That's an awfully harsh thing to say and I feel bad for saying it but we all watch the show and try to get it to make sense, and we're not even being paid.

 

Felicity's been more supportive - she was the one to back up Laurel's theory on Blood, after all. I would have liked to see their initial confrontations.

I think Felicity would continue to be supportive because she believes that Laurel is the one who Oliver loves and she'd try her hardest to make Laurel's integration comfortable for his sake as well as because she (Felicity) is a naturally nice person.. And then I'd want to smack her upside the head for being such a goose.

Consistent writing helped show that her insecurity in Heir to the Demon wasn't whiny or insincere.

I'd forgotten her loyalty to Walter, it was that long ago, but it makes sense.

 

I think what sells it for me is that I can see how the abandonment affected Felicity, and how she fights it to do what she feels it right. I can see the emotional scars on Oliver and Sara too and  how they struggle to get any kind of normal life.  I can even see it on Dinah in season 1, the guilt and loss and the betrayal when Quentin lost himself in his job and the bottle instead of helping her. But I can't see it on Laurel, either physically or emotionally, and other than when no one believed her about Sebastian, I can't see her doing any fighting to get beyond it. It's all being handed over to her on a platter, or rather a leather jacket.

Edited May 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[pootlus]

That's basically it - Quentin's 'island' had consequences - not least the breakup of his marriage, and all the associated trauma.  I can believe it's ongoing because Paul Blackthorne kills it every scene he's in (especially with his daughters, which is where it comes out).

 

Laurel seems to be in a far better place now than when she started her 'crucible'.  She didn't even lose the swanky apartment that I'm still baffled that she's able to afford.  Add to this the fact that Cassidy can't or isn't interested in layering her performance to show that Laurel still has emotional/mental problems from her breakdown, and it looks as if Laurel swapped a few bad weeks for a position as DA (which is what I'm assuming happens next year). So we're relying on the writers inserting the odd line to remind us that she's still at AA (which Cassidy delivers in an upbeat chirp). Go Laurel.

[Password]

 
If the Oliver/Felicity story is hitting all the right beats, Oliver/Laurel is hitting all the wrong ones.
 

I think Felicity would continue to be supportive because she believes that Laurel is the one who Oliver loves and she'd try her hardest to make Laurel's integration comfortable for his sake as well as because she (Felicity) is a naturally nice person.. And then I'd want to smack her upside the head for being such a goose.

Felicity's reluctance to push Oliver and her relationship is something that actually annoys me. I know she sees how much Oliver "loves" Laurel whenever he starts doing dumb snot to protect her. But Felicity is a smart girl, surely she can see just how awful that relationship is.

And I guess it slots into her abandonment issues in that she would rather have him in her life in some capacity than do or say something to further their relationship. But damn. I know she can see something is there and she sure knows Oliver is NOT going to be the one acknowledging it. Give just a little Felicity and see what he does with it.

On and on the slow burn goes.

[Danny Franks]

Felicity's reluctance to push Oliver and her relationship is something that actually annoys me. I know she sees how much Oliver "loves" Laurel whenever he starts doing dumb snot to protect her. But Felicity is a smart girl, surely she can see just how awful that relationship is.

 

And I guess it slots into her abandonment issues in that she would rather have him in her life in some capacity than do or say something to further their relationship. But damn. I know she can see something is there and she sure knows Oliver is NOT going to be the one acknowledging it. Give just a little Felicity and see what he does with it.

 

 

I think it rings true that Felicity doesn't try to force anything with Oliver, doesn't try to give him hints about her feelings. For all that she's smart, beautiful, fun and engaging, she does seem to have an inferiority complex around Oliver. She's never given me the impression, until the last scene of the finale, that she ever imagined Oliver would be interested in her.

 

That's what made her so sympathetic, in her little crush on him. There was no expectation, no feeling that Oliver should owe her anything, that her feelings should be reciprocated just because she liked him. Too many shows push their characters into that dynamic, and it usually makes them unappealing.

 

Now, I wonder how they'll deal with this in season 3. To me, it seemed like she was finally starting to believe he could be interested, in that last scene of the finale. And I've said this before, but now that door has been opened for her, it might be tough to close. She's already shown that she doesn't buy the idea that Oliver can't be with someone he really cares about, and I don't think she'd accept the reasoning that he's not ready for a relationship either. I think that, if she felt that was the main reason he was holding back, she'd tell him it was bullshit. So the writers have to be careful about how aware they make either of them, at this stage.

 

Laurel seems to be in a far better place now than when she started her 'crucible'.  She didn't even lose the swanky apartment that I'm still baffled that she's able to afford.  Add to this the fact that Cassidy can't or isn't interested in layering her performance to show that Laurel still has emotional/mental problems from her breakdown, and it looks as if Laurel swapped a few bad weeks for a position as DA (which is what I'm assuming happens next year). So we're relying on the writers inserting the odd line to remind us that she's still at AA (which Cassidy delivers in an upbeat chirp). Go Laurel.

 

 

Half-arsed and lazy wins the day! This season could have been Laurel's crucible, if the writers had ever bothered to actually invest in her storyline and show that she was suffering more than the occasional bout of self-pity and, presumably, some killer hangovers. But they didn't. Do they expect us to just buy that she's suffered comparably to Oliver and Sara, and that her mindset is now sufficient to become a vigilante? There is nothing about her character now that tells me she can be that, any more than there was in the pilot episode.

[tv echo]

I can think of another reason why KC is so gleeful at getting the jacket from Sara.  KC doesn't have another equally high-exposure gig lined up.  More importantly, if the CW's Arrow and Flash are incorporated into the larger DC movie universe in the future, then there's the possibility (however remote) of Green Arrow and Black Canary ending up on the big screen.  Perhaps she sees herself as the DC equivalent of Marvel's Black Widow.

[slayer2]

Alright, 6 episodes in and I think the show is genius bit am deeply bitter about Thea or Dawn 2.0 as I call her. The worst sister ever. A solipsistic narcissist with nary a kind word for anyone, in fact if I recall her last words to her mother were asshole proclamations and accusations.

This chick doesn't know what love is. She's pissed that Tommy doesn't return her feelings so she gets drunk and maligns him? Well poor little rich girl. Suck it up and grow the fuck up, that's life and everyone's not just standing around waiting to cater to you and your childhood traumas. Some traumas are a fuckload worse than yours so be a sport and lend some support instead of acting like an entitled asshole.

Many girls have been through way worse with no wealth to comfort them (like Speedy her comic boom namesake for example) Boo-hoo they lied to her, people lie bitch it's part of life but considering your brother's been the recipient of torture and unspeakable horrors for five years maybe you can cut him some slack instead of acting like he went through it all on purpose just to make YOUR life more uncomfortable. DIAF Thea, DIAF. That sword in the chest should have been you but Slade would never give you an honourable death because you don't fucking deserve it. /END RANT. So.very.bitter.

[Password]

Now, I wonder how they'll deal with this in season 3. To me, it seemed like she was finally starting to believe he could be interested, in that last scene of the finale. And I've said this before, but now that door has been opened for her, it might be tough to close. She's already shown that she doesn't buy the idea that Oliver can't be with someone he really cares about, and I don't think she'd accept the reasoning that he's not ready for a relationship either. I think that, if she felt that was the main reason he was holding back, she'd tell him it was bullshit. So the writers have to be careful about how aware they make either of them, at this stage.

Can I ask what you're referring to when you say she's shown she doesn't buy Oliver not being able to be with someone he doesn't care about? Is it the you deserve better line?

And I agree the door has been opened and I doubt it can be shut until it's properly acknowledged. The fact that Oliver didn't deny a word on the beach scene was probably even a test for her to gauge where he's at. They've kind of set up the perfect crossroads for their characters, and the fact that EBR acknowledged the two of them will probably have to choose between their friendship and their feelings is telling.

[writersblock51]

Addressing the Laurel fan's take on Tumblr...

 

I agree with the other posters here who laid out the reasons that the alcoholism storyline wasn't done well for Laurel this season - and still continues to be on target for Quentin as he manages his problems.  Laurel remains the most 'tell, don't show' character on the show, and I have no idea why.  That being said, the little we saw of her drinking and pill popping issues were so brief, badly written/acted (KC was NOT acting drunk when she was pulled over), and clearly had no lasting ill effects.

 

Lost her job?  Got it back via Blackmail.

 

Estranged from sister?  Best buds now, even got her jacket as a memento

 

Estranged from ex boyfriend?  Now looks at him with hearts floating out of her eyes

 

Dad was arrested?  Got him out via Blackmail

 

Facing disbarment proceedings?  Paperwork disappeared, or wasn't filed, or something.  Anyway, it was enough that her friend Joanna knew about it but then it was all gone.  Just in time for her to be the new DA

 

Tried getting the Arrow arrested a few times?  Floating hearts & wants to fight by his side, because destiny

 

No scars, seen or unseen.  Tommy who?  While I'm glad she can mention him, briefly, he's just that - a name.

 

So her spiral was quick and went largely unnoticed by the people who care about her so much.  Her recovery was even quicker.  Not surprising for this show at all (see: Trials and Financial Ruin).  But there's been NOTHING to show that she's scarred at this point.  She's stronger, yes.  Her eyes were opened (because she was told, not because she figured it out) about Oliver and then Sara's alter egos.  She's recovered.  That's fine, it truly is.  I certainly didn't want to see any more of her 'suffering.'

 

The thing is: compared to pretty much everyone around her, she's been through some stuff but compounded all of that by her own decisions.  She chose to go get some files during the 'earthquake' when everyone told her to stay safe, out of the Glades.  She drank and took pills. She stole the pills from her father, who actually needed them for pain management.  With the possible exception of Felicity, who we know so little about, so that may change next season, Laurel's sufferings are pretty mild.  Certainly they were things that she could have managed, with the support of her family (we can assume she's been in touch with her mom, too, off screen).  She is also a grown woman, who went through the rigors of college & law school.  I never understood how she could fall apart so easily. 

 

Her assumptions about Sara (and still, we haven't seen them discuss what Sara went through, even though Laurel has seen many of the scars) were and are still ridiculous.  Whether Laurel knows just what the LoA means and is capable of is irrelevant - she should know that the group is the one that Sara was willing to commit suicide to avoid joining, just a few months earlier.  Take that damn grin off your face, Laurel.

 

And KC's love of her character - I get that. I do.  I don't have a problem with it.  My problems with her as Laurel are many, though, and none of them bode well for my enjoyment of the show. 

 

- She hasn't read the comics.  Fine.  But then don't refer to the comics as a justification of your character's relationship & destiny with Oliver. Ignorance seems to be her thing, though.  If she knows they get together, then surely she's heard that they divorce?  and that's just 1 version

- She isn't professional enough to keep her personal feelings off screen.  There are now 2 glaring examples: the sex scenes with SA and the jacket scene.  KC isn't a good enough actress to carry them off, so the network needs to take a close look as to the future with her on this show

- Her dismissiveness of Oliver's other relationships with women - "just flings."  it makes her look petty, especially since his relationships with Sara and Helena show MANY layers that I'm hard pressed to describe as "flings."  Isabel was a fling.  McKenna was not a fling.  And we have no idea yet about Felicity but KC seems defiant about her.  Maybe that's what "I'm worried about that character taking top female billing" looks like

 

If DC is planning on KC becoming Black Canary this season, then I would think she'd be given materials (like SA and CL were) to help prep for the role.  If they haven't, why not?

[ohjoy]

- She isn't professional enough to keep her personal feelings off screen.  There are now 2 glaring examples: the sex scenes with SA and the jacket scene.  KC isn't a good enough actress to carry them off, so the network needs to take a close look as to the future with her on this show

 

She has never read the comics, and I doubt she's done any extensive research on her character/BC and refuses to do so unless she has been given the green light on her becoming BC which just goes to show how unenthusiastic she is about actually being Laurel Lance.

 

THIS. Seems to hit the nail on the head. I have no idea how the part was pitched to her or what's in her contract, but from the way she talks, she took this part because she wanted to be Black Canary, and for no other reason. I'm sure she recognizes the pay grade and status that comes with being the top billed female on the show, and that's why she's so resolute about Laurel not losing that spot by Oliver's side. But considering Stephen Amell got married about three months after this show started airing, she could not have been unaware that the guy was in a very committed relationship not the free-wheeling bachelor that would have made it easy for her to fake jumping all over. So either she never expected the "star-crossed lovers" to actually make out at some point (which, she was on Melrose Place, so she can't possibly be that clueless), or she simply ignored the aspects of this role that did not appeal to her and focused solely on the ones that did.

 

And honestly, I don't think that has changed at all in the last two years: her interest in this role or her focus. Which is a huge problem, because such an insular focus means that we got a gleeful actor that jacket scene instead of the character that was supposed to be portrayed. Acting means going into that scene and remembering that, while you as an actor know what you think receiving this jacket symbolizes for the future of your time on the show, you as the character have no idea that you are receiving anything other than literally the clothes off your sister's back as she disappears out of your life for the second time in her history, and your acting should be tempered to your character's interactions accordingly.

 

What I'm trying to get at is this: characters are not characters unless they are interacting with other characters. Viewers see, understand, and define characters based on their interactions with other characters. So it is very bad for an actor to ignore, dismiss, or otherwise be unaware of how his/her character is and should be interacting with the characters around her, regardless of the actor interacts with the other actors around them. If that is not happening, then the person in the role is not acting. And if that is not something the actor is willing/able to do, then they should not be in that role. I'm not talking about ability; I'm talking about effort.

 

I understand that KC probably feels like a bait and switch happened and she didn't get the part she signed on for, but if she's is not interested in playing the role she's currently in -- which is that of Laurel Lance, sister, daughter, ex-girlfriend, and supposedly former-alcoholic -- then she should not be on the show. She needs to be dressing for the weight she currently is, not for the weight she hopes or think she deserves to be. And to take this analogy further, if she wants to be a different weight (or a different character), she needs to do it organically, through diet and exercise, rather than using pills or surgery to bring about a sudden transformation. One shows the growth of the character, the other requires a lot of extraneous effort (and would still need the diet and exercise to provide/maintain plausibility).

Edited May 23, 2014 by RandomMe

[KirkB]

The thing is, we really don't know what KC was told when she was hired. If she was promised she would get to be a kickass hero and became more and more frustrated as it looked like this wouldn't happen it might begin to show through her acting. If she was just hired to be Laurel Lance and not told much else about the character other than you used to date Oliver Queen and your sister is dead, her acting might reflect a certain emptiness because she doesn't know what to do with the role. But after one season she should have a pretty good handle on either what she wants to do with the character or else what the EP's expect of her. So if there is a failing here is it primarily from KC, the EP's, or a combination of both?

[Carrie Ann]

I have no idea how contracts work when it comes to character development, but man, it would be really annoying if an actor's contract prevented the showrunners from making creative decisions about the direction of the show. I never knew the contracts extended to anything beyond pay, term of commitment (including sometimes the ability for the showrunners to end the contract early), regularity of appearance, and place in credits. It would really suck if they did decide they wanted her to be a villain, for example, and couldn't do that because the contract stated her character would become the BC. I've never heard of a contract clause to that effect. Anyone more knowledgeable know if that is common?

[slayer2]

I don't think it would be in her contract straight out the gate, usually actors alhave to be with the show and have a proven record of being a necessity (like Jensen on SPN) before they can get ironclad guarantees on things for character etc.

I think it's a seniority thing, I think a lot of vet soap actors have this eg Tony Geary on GH has a clause which guarantees him a certain amount of vacation every year (I think a good few months or so). I think it might be more common in a film actress coming to TV as incentive to get them to sign but unlikely in someone like KC's or even SA's situation.

[writersblock51]

Maybe the show paired up Laurel Lance/Black Canary in the beginning in terms of the cast call and contracts?

 

Agreed that it is a stupid, limiing thing to do.  The only character who was carved in stone was Oliver as Arrow - unless Laurel was already established as BC before Oliver returned to Starling City in the pilot (mirroring what Sara was doing elsewhere) OR she showed blatant signs of being BC (the inclination to do stuff on the side, to bring justice to the city) once the Arrow started doing stuff... there's no reason why there'd be an iron clad reason to have Laurel = BC with no wiggle room.

 

And, clearly, the show used whatever wiggle room they had because Laurel was NOT the BC - or even close to it - by the end of S1.

[SonofaBiscuit]

If becoming Black Canary is part of Katie Cassidy's contract, I wonder what the details look like?  Would her contract stipulate that she has to be Black Canary for a certain amount of episodes?  If there aren't a whole lot of specifics, then they could just have Cassidy become the Black Canary for like two episodes and then kill her off when she discovers she's way out of her league.  Boom.  Problem solved.  Comic canon fulfilled.   

[statsgirl]

But they may have to pay her a large penalty for ending her contract before the 5 or 7 year term is up, and the show is always short of money.  Plus, even though I don't think KC adds much to the show, other people think she does

 

I don't think it would be in her contract straight out the gate, usually actors alhave to be with the show and have a proven record of being a necessity (like Jensen on SPN) before they can get ironclad guarantees on things for character etc.

.Maybe CW thought she was a necessity since she was their biggest name regular.  Susanna Thompson was mainly known for guest roles on other shows, Paul Blackthorne had just had the Dresden Files fail, and Stephen Amell who?.  Katie Cassidy was the known CW 'star'.

 

Or maybe someone slipped up on the contracts and automatically put in Laurel Lance/Black Canary instead of just Laurel Lance, thinking it wouldn't make a difference since that was the plan.  I don't think we'll ever know.

If she was promised she would get to be a kickass hero and became more and more frustrated as it looked like this wouldn't happen it might begin to show through her acting.

I think she was.  But if she was promised that, then she should have been kicking workout dummy ass as soon as she got the role.

Perhaps she sees herself as the DC equivalent of Marvel's Black Widow.

I can see that happening.  If she thinks she's deserving of the Canary role on Arrow now, she may well think that if SA gets into the movie as Green Arrow, she will get in too as Black Canary.

They've kind of set up the perfect crossroads for their characters, and the fact that EBR acknowledged the two of them will probably have to choose between their friendship and their feelings is telling.

To quote a line from The Lost World, I never bet on a certainty. ;-)   They will choose friendship in season 3.  Because doing what they do, they can't be with someone they really care about.

Edited May 23, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

Where does it say that KC has a 5-7 year contract? I don't know about you, but usually lead actors have 3 year contracts. 

 

Also, if the contract is a simple boilerplate one, I'm sure there's a clause in the contract where it states that they can write her off for creative purposes... 

[statsgirl]

I thought contracts were usually 5-7 years when a show starts. There was a big deal about the House actors who played Chase and Cameron and whether they would get renewed after the first 5 years since their characters were back-burnered at the time.

 

If KC has a good agent and lawyer, and given her family connections I'd take that bet, the contract will also include a penalty clause if they write her off before the end of the contract term.

[wonderwall]

KC might have good Lawyers, but CW would definitely have better ones! There's no way that a contract would be so highly in favor of an actor. 

 

But then again, you look at KC and her previous role. I think in Calgary she said she didn't really know when she would get written off, so there definitely was a clause in her contract that allowed her to be written off at one point, maybe Arrow didn't have this because they thought people would respond well to Laurel. 

 

Maybe that's why KC is doing all of these interviews/cons because 1. she gets paid to go 2. because she has no other job 3. because she knows she's going to be on Arrow for a while because of said contract

[slayer2]

DC character contracts can be weird, remember how DC stipulated that Erica Durance's Lois Lane could be in no more than 13 episodes of Smallville per season. They carried on with that until at least season 7. Who knows what kind of bizarre deal KC, SA or for that matter CL have. We live in a world where actors commit to a superhero role for 9 movies so...you never know.

[KirkB]

Wait, what? DC said Lois could only be in half the Smallville episodes per season? Why?

Edited May 23, 2014 by KirkB