Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[SonofaBiscuit]

Laurel probably has a fucking shrine in her apartment with all the bits of Sara's life/costume she's accumulated.

 

"I just need the wig and I get the five-piece set bonus lol" *maniacal grin*

 

Oh my gosh this is so funny.  It's like that game where you have a list of items and you win by collecting them all.  Jacket?  Check!  Mask?  Check!  Oh, I'd better grab the wig before they bury Sara. 

 

Honestly, though, I'm not OK with Laurel wearing her dead sister's possessions.  So tacky! 

[wonderwall]

Apparently episode 2 is a very Laurel heavy episode, and I suppose, this is rightly so. 

 

Guess I'm going to skip it and watch it later (It'll help for fast forwarding)

[Chaser]

Ep.2 being Laurel heavy would explain

spliting the Olicity conversation into ep. 1 & 2. Why they released promo photos that highlight Olicity and Team Arrow. And why they gave the impression Sara is big (alive big).

]

 

 I get that they want to surprise the audience. But they know there is a problem this character.

I'm bitter about the way they promote Arrow. A bunch of Trolls.

Edited October 10, 2014 by 10Eleven12

[statsgirl]

Bait-and-switch. They know that Olicity brings in the viewers but they are determined to make Laurel their star as she is in the comics.

Also, I'm feeling less invested in the characters that are left now, because pretty much any one of them could be for the chop to "advance the story".

I don't mind characters getting killed as long as a) they advance the long-term storytelling and b) their loss is greater than the gain made from their deaths (Moira and I would argue Tommy because it should have been Laurel to advance Oliver's hero journey).

 

When they're killed off to advance the story of the character I like the least and who I think brings down the show, I mind very much.

Edited October 10, 2014 by statsgirl

[Guest]

Ha, they were just luring the fans into a false sense of security with their Olicity promotion because here on out we are basically in for the Laurel show. I can't believe I didn't realize this sooner. I knew Olicity would sort of take a back seat because that's one of the running themes of the season so it can afford to be shelved temporarily but I'm starting to get the feeling that there will barely be any Olicity scenes and all we'll have is Felicity stuck with Ray and Diggle off with his baby and Laurel and Oliver becoming closer in their need to avenge Sara's death. Do not want.

 

I think that's what I'm bitter about most of all. Sara dying will kickstart Laurel's path to BC which is basically saying that vengeance is the only way to become a hero and that is just bullshit. And I'm frustrated because I was willing to give Laurel a chance - I so wanted to like her character and story because I was pretty sick of her being surplus to the show - but after Sara's truly brutal death I am just not interested. If the most creative thing they could do was kill off a character to make another one relevant, I have no desire to see how that story plays out because clearly it's not going to be believable or interesting when its origins certainly weren't. 

 

Let's face it. The only reason Laurel is even becoming BC is because her name is Laurel. That's it. And that is a really crappy way to write a hero. I swear this 'because comics!' reason is growing really old and has basically ruined a great character and even greater potential with it. 

[discoduck227]

Two days later. Still bitter. I truly hated that they killed Moira because I enjoyed her and Malcolm playing off one another and I think that would have really added to the tension with Thea and her journey. "Who am I? Am I a Queen? Am I a Merlyn?" With Moira gone, it's kind of meh as far as that goes. Oliver has no family to speak of now (unless he and Thea work things out and who knows where that's going).  I get that it had to do with Slade's revenge for the death of a woman that didn't even love him and was killed by someone who wasn't Oliver (seriously wtf?) but it got rid of an awesome character who added a lot to the show.

 

If the EPs wanted Laurel to be a superhero so badly, she could be someone else. She doesn't have to be The Canary. Make up a hero just for the show...imaginaton, creativity, there's a concept! Do that and let Sara live because while I didn't like her as Oliver's love interest (I thought their chemistry was more friends than romantic) she was a great addition to Team Arrow. So I'm really curious to see if the EPs can find a way to make me care about Laurel avenging her sister's death. Somehow I doubt it.

Edited October 10, 2014 by discoduck227

[statsgirl]

I'm curious if the EPs really thought we would be all "Go, Laurel, avenge Sara's death!" after Laurel had been so delighted in the jacket scene, if they thought were were just waiting breathlessly for her to become the Black Canary, or if someone there thought it was the only way to make us care about her.

[apinknightmare]

I'm curious if the EPs really thought we would be all "Go, Laurel, avenge Sara's death!" after Laurel had been so delighted in the jacket scene, if they thought were were just waiting breathlessly for her to become the Black Canary, or if someone there thought it was the only way to make us care about her.

 

They might've thought that the audience's love for Sara would translate into us rooting for whoever it was that was trying to avenge her death?

[poetgirl925]

And if Sara's murderer is a man, they were ALL murdered by dudes. I hate feeling like it's time to take another break from the show, but seeing strong female characters treated this way really bothers me. I just wonder if the writers consider these things.

[Guest]

I've just seen a gif of when Sara rescued that child from the burning house in the s2 finale and it made me remember all the trouble they went to to ensure Sara was seen by others as a hero when she didn't think of herself as one. They were really heavy handed with that tbh so what was the point in all of that if they just killed her so horribly in the end? Whyyyyyy?! 

[KirkB]

Isn't that the same scene where Laurel gets what some people have described as a really creepy, almost predatory grin on her face when she says "The Canary"? So maybe they hammered in how heroic the Canary is so when Laurel puts the mask on she has something to look forward to?

 

"Everyone loved the Canary before so they're really going to love me!"

Edited October 10, 2014 by KirkB

[ban1o]

I kinda disagree with that person. The only female character death I would consider fridging is Shado's (wchich I agree was dumb). Sara's death is more to motivate Laurel than Oliver I don't think a woman dying to motivate a woman is fridging, and most of us predicted it will happen some time so it wasn't THAT shocking. Also Moira's main story-line was pretty much done and she died protecting her family. Yao Fei, and Tommy died too. At least this show actually writes well-developed female characters unlike a lot of comic based material. 

Edited October 10, 2014 by ban1o

[statsgirl]

I kinda disagree with that person. The only female character death I would consider fridging is Shado's (wchich I agree was dumb). Sara's death is more to motivate Laurel than Oliver I don't think a woman dying to motivate a woman is fridging, and most of us predicted it will happen some time so it wasn't THAT shocking. Also Moira's main story-line was pretty much done and she died protecting her family. Yao Fei, and Tommy died too. At least this show actually writes well-developed female characters unlike a lot of comic based material. 

Shado was fridged to motivate Slade's revenge obsession against Oliver. That makes more sense than Sara dying to motivate Laurel since they had already had Tommy die and could have used that.  (I think it's fair to say fridging if it's for a woman if she's higher status than the person fridged.)

 

Moira's first storyline (the Undertaking) was done, but so was Thea's first 2 (teenage rebellion and her second as bar owner), Malcolm's (The Undertaking); Diggle's (single ex-soldier); Felicity's (IT girl),;Lance's 2 (detective then beat cop); and Laurel's first 3 (CNRI, junior counsel, addiction).  Like with Sara, I think there was lots more story to tell with Moira.  A fight with Malcolm for Thea's soul, for example,

 

 

That was fast.

They're shooting ep 9 now so that would be for 10? That's Laurel Lance, getting everything at super speed.

 

I"m sure she's grinning under there.  Look, she's got something no other female on the show has!

Edited October 10, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

That was fast.

 

I used to think the writers would wait until the end of the season to put Laurel in full costume, but now I'm getting the sinking feeling that she might already be suiting up whenever they're doing their second BOP episode.

#Bitter as hell. 

 

Hopefully this has nothing to do with a costume and everything to do with Laurel burning her face off. 

 

I'm bitter. Sue me. 

[poetgirl925]

At least this show actually writes well-developed female characters unlike a lot of comic based material.

If they're all going to be murdered by men then what exactly is the point? And at this point, I'm doubling down on Sara's killer being a man. I'm sorry, but I'm only going to give them credit for creating a strong, female hero if they keep her alive for the story. Why brutally murder three strong, well written female characters within a year? Because it's absolutely the only way to mine story? That's really a problem if that's the case.

I'm not sure what the writers are doing here, but there's a statement in this whether it was intentional or not. And I don't like it. The more I think about it, the more bitter I get, really. I was very upset at the manner of Shado's death last year, but I tried to push past it because I kind of suspected she was dead - it was the execution I HATED. And now here we are again - Sara dying? Not a shock considering how predictable these writers are becoming, but the execution, the visual of her being tossed out with the trash? HATE. Tommy at least got a hero's death, and it wasn't murder.

Bitter.

Edited October 10, 2014 by poetgirl925

[statsgirl]

You're right, it makes no sense to make The Canary super heroic unless it's to transfer the audience affection to Laurel as Black Canary unless it's to justify Laurel going all vengeance-y.  (Ouch I just got hit by an anvil -- Black Canary, you know when you let the darkness inside it can never get out, especially when you're all about vengeance for your sister who was killed.)

 

So do they know Laurel isn't liked? Or am I just giving myself a headache?

 

 

If they're all going to be murdered by men then what exactly is the point? And at this point, I'm doubling down on Sara's killer being a man. I'm sorry, but I'm only going to give them credit for creating a strong, female hero if they keep her alive for the story. Why brutally murder three strong, well written female characters within a year? Because it's absolutely the only way to mine story? That's really a problem if that's the case.

I'm not sure what the writers are doing here, but there's a statement in this whether it was intentional or not. And I don't like it. The more I think about it, the more bitter I get, really. I was very upset at the manner of Shado's death last year, but I tried to push past it because I kind of suspected she was dead - it was the execution I HATED. And now here we are again - Sara dying? Not a shock considering how predictable these writers are becoming, but the execution, the visual of her being tossed out with the trash? HATE. Tommy at least got a hero's death, and it wasn't murder.

That's a good point, they were all very strong women in their different ways, all of them succeeding in a man's world.

 

All three of them executed brutally by a man while Tommy got a hero's death saving Laurel.

[wonderwall]

Unfortunately I think the EPs made this decision only thinking of the short term effects Sara's death would have as well as overestimating how people would feel about Laurel afterwards. From what I've seen, more and more people have started resenting Laurel, even some critics (eg. Alan Sepinwall) didn't understand the need to kill off Sara for Laurel. 

 

Yes, Sara's death provides the story with an element of mystery, but what happens when the mystery is solved? Sara is still going to be dead and there's nothing they can do about it. Sara's death also provides laurel with motivation, but will people still accept her? They made a really really risky move by putting all of their eggs in one basket and I don't think it'll pay off in the long run. 

 

What I don't understand is that they could've had mystery if they went another direction. What if Sara was kidnapped? Better yet, what if Laurel was kidnapped and tortured? There would be that mystery element of who kidnapped her and why. It also would've helped Laurel's motivation on seeking justice. If Laurel were kidnapped, they could've helped us sympathize with her, they could've had Sara go down the dark path killing anyone and everyone to find her. There's so much more story they could've gotten if they'd gone a different route. 

 

Killing Sara was lazy, uncreative (this should be a word), and sloppy. It's like the writers don't care to put in the extra added time to give Laurel a compelling story. No, they're going to go the easy route and make Laurel's journey predictable and not fun at all. 

 

I hope a couple of years from now, Sara returns from Lazarus Pit all evil and broken. I hope she yells at Laurel and tells her that she stole her life and ends up killing Laurel. That is how I want Laurel's story to end. Poetic justice indeed. 

Edited October 10, 2014 by wonderwall

[ban1o]

Well all the villains are male. That's why they are killed by men. I don't get it, is it that you would rather they be killed by women?

[poetgirl925]

It's not about whether the villains are male or female, really. Characters die sometimes. I understand this. However, if it's mostly female characters sacrificed in a male-driven story, it's disturbing to me. So what I'm saying is that the way you craft your story, the reasons a character is killed, and the manner in which that death is handled are all extremely relevant. Arrow is beginning to show a troubling trend in that their strong, female characters are being, quite literally, executed. Worse? These executions are being carried out by male villains. (We don't know who killed Sara yet, but I'd bet it's a man.)

Personally, I find this disappointing, lazy, and worthy of bitterness.

I forgot misogynistic. Bitter, bitter,bitter. :(

Edited October 10, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Morrigan2575]

Even Manu commented about it. He mentioned at a con that he talked to the EPs when he filmed the finale because the list of targets Slade named to Oliver were all women. ..so you know even the actors involved picked up on it.

It is a very disturbing trend this show is setting.

Edited October 10, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[dtissagirl]

And on his NerdHQ panel at SDCC, Amell said he had to go to the EPs to talk about the fact that Oliver was sleeping with every woman on the show who weren't his sister or his mother, and asked them if maybe that could stop. It's all part of the same problematic pattern: women being written as either sexual partners, or potential murder victims, and not much else in between.

Edited October 10, 2014 by dancingnancy

[ban1o]

women being written as either sexual partners, or potential murder victims, and not much else in between.

I definitely agree that Ollie sleeping with all the females on the show is ridiculous and I really hope they stop that, but I think saying all the females on this show are either sexual partners and murder victims and nothing else.

 

Moira was my favorite female character on the show by far. I loved her. And I was really, sad to see her die but she was a developed, complex character whose story-line ended. The way she died was brutal, but she didn't exist purely to be a murder victim. Same with Sara. I loved Sara and she was a really developed character who had a back story, had faults and had many different facets to her. She didn't exist just to be a murder victim but she had a very important role in season 2 and obviously the killed her to pass the mantel to Laurel and to drive a mystery for season 3. I don't find that sexist of them. I get that Laurel isn't the most likable character, but most people knew that was the trajectory. Male characters have died as well to serve as motivation for characters- Robert Queen, Yao Fei, Tommy (his character death was pretty much the whole motivation for season 2, and I hear SO MANY people say Laurel should have died instead) The show still has many important female characters. Thea, Laurel, Felicity, Katana, Nyssa, Amanda Waller, Lyla Sin (although I think she's gone now? ) Of those characters I listed only 2 have been/are involved with Oliver. I just feel like calling this show misogynistic discounts actual misogynistic shows.  

Edited October 11, 2014 by ban1o

[apinknightmare]

I definitely agree that Ollie sleeping with all the females on the show is ridiculous and I really hope they stop that, but I think saying all the females on this show are either sexual partners and murder victims and nothing else.

 

Moira was my favorite female character on the show by far. I loved her. And I was really, sad to see her die but she was a developed, complex character whose story-line ended.

 

Oooh, I've got to disagree with you on that. She was shady as hell and loved her family and would do anything for them. That storyline could've gone on into eternity. RIP you sassy, devil woman.

Edited October 11, 2014 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

With Moira gone, there is no one to meet Malcolm Merlyn on his own turf.  It will be  years before Oliver is ready to be in Malcolm's league for sneakiness.

 

After Oliver got QC back, Moira could take over running it while Oliver concentrated on the way he spends his nights.

 

Moira and Quentin could bond over their losses and their disobedient children.

 

And that's just continuing the existing storylines on the show.

[dtissagirl]

I can't give Arrow a pass when they do problematic stuff because other shows are more sexist. That's not how it works for me. And hey, I like a lot of stuff about Arrow, or else I wouldn't be here devoting so much time to dissecting it. I'm okay with loving a show that has problematic parts, as long as I'm aware of those problems and don't handwave them. I also have a limit to how much crap I can take from my tv shows, so once they go overboard, I quit. Arrow hasn't stepped over my line yet, but offing Shado, Moira and Sara in the span of 15 episodes is something that will never sit well with me. Because it's not only about each individual death and what they meant to the narrative, it's about the pattern they show me: women constantly being brutally murdered by men.

Laurel seems to be safe from the pattern, and I think Felicity is too. But I worry about all of the other women you listed -- Thea, Lyla, Nyssa, Sin, Katana. Hell, even The Wall, who in my head canon for the comics is basically unkillable. But I can see these writers deciding to kill any of these women in a second if they think it'll give them a shortcut to advance the narrative. I can't see them killing any of the dudes as easily.

Edited October 11, 2014 by dancingnancy

[ban1o]

Oooh, I've got to disagree with you on that. She was shady as hell and loved her family and would do anything for them. That storyline could've gone on into eternity. RIP you sassy, devil woman.

haha fair enough :P They didn't HAVE e to killer her. But out of the characters they wanted Slade to kill, I guess they thought she made the most sense. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

Slade is still alive so obviously he'll come back. If Felicity really is going to die, it'll be at Slade's hand. He will come back and kill her first and make Oliver watch. And I think this will happen by the end of season 4 or even season 5. I mean, why else keep him around?

 

However, I see no reason to kill off Felicity other than to bring Laurel and Oliver back together again. And I honestly don't see Felicity leaving Starling after everything that happened in the first episode. I think she's the kind of woman to stick around regardless of how hurt she is or how much danger she's in. She's stubborn like that. So yeah, killing Felicity off would have no purpose on the show's narrative because I think it would absolutely destroy Oliver to the point of no return. Oliver has already witnessed the death of several loved ones, Yao Fei, Moira, Robert, Shado, Tommy, and now Sara... Killing another person Oliver loves would simply be overdone. No one can emotionally survive after seeing so many people you love get killed. And I don't think Laurel's 'love' could ever make Oliver less destroyed if Felicity does get killed off. 

 

Then again. Comic canon beckons so... *rolls eyes*

 

Ugh this leaves a pit in my stomach... I wish I started this show after it ended instead of live-watching. At least then I would know if it's worth continuing and whether or not the writers ef up. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

I'm bitter that I have to watch Black Canary on this show (which is called Arrow, BTW) at all.  I don't care about BC or her training or her rise to become a hero.  My single biggest issue with Sara last season was that I felt that she had way too much screen-time.  That didn't mean that I wanted her dead or wanted to trade her awesomeness for Laurel...it just meant I wanted her to drop by less frequently in the new season.  Now I'm going to have to watch BC again but this time there will be even more of that story?  No thanks.  If that's the story that they wanted to do, then they should have called this Arrow and Canary. 

[ban1o]

I can't give Arrow a pass when they do problematic stuff because other shows are more sexist. That's not how it works for me. And hey, I like a lot of stuff about Arrow, or else I wouldn't be here devoting so much time to dissecting it. I'm okay with loving a show that has problematic parts, as long as I'm aware of those problems and don't handwave them. I also have a limit to how much crap I can take from my tv shows, so once they go overboard, I quit. Arrow hasn't stepped over my line yet, but offing Shado, Moira and Sara in the span of 15 episodes is something that will never sit well with me. Because it's not only about each individual death and what they meant to the narrative, it's about the pattern they show me: women constantly being brutally murdered by men.

Laurel seems to be safe from the pattern, and I think Felicity is too. But I worry about all of the other women you listed -- Thea, Lyla, Nyssa, Sin, Katana. Hell, even The Wall, who in my head canon for the comics is basically unkillable. But I can see these writers deciding to kill any of these women in a second if they think it'll give them a shortcut to advance the narrative. I can't see them killing any of the dudes as easily.

I guess I just don't really think Arrow is sexist (besides the whole sleeping with female characters thing which I think they are dialing down). I don't really think killing off female characters is sexist as long as it's not just gratuitous violence or if the female characters served no purpose but to be killed (aka Supernatural lol) All the females characters that have been killed were really developed and not just" women in refrigerators." Arrow also probably has  an equal amount of important male characters and female characters. Like Maseo is probably guaranteed to die this season. And out of the girls I can't really think of any who they would kill off. 

 

I guess if this season they show a patter of killing off females to motivate men and or for simple shock value then I would agree with you, but I don't really see that right now. I guess for now we can agree to disagree though. :) 

Slade is still alive so obviously he'll come back. If Felicity really is going to die, it'll be at Slade's hand. He will come back and kill her first and make Oliver watch. And I think this will happen by the end of season 4 or even season 5. I mean, why else keep him around?

 

Felicity is too popular of a character. I can guarantee you they won't kill her off lol. The only way Felicity leaves is if EBR wants to leave the show. 

Edited October 11, 2014 by ban1o

[wonderwall]

Felicity is too popular of a character. I can guarantee you they won't kill her off lol. The only way Felicity leaves is if EBR wants to leave the show. 

Reading your posts give me hope. But then my stupid brain has to second guess itself. Sometimes the writers just make shitty decisions. Killing off Felicity would be a shitty decision. And I don't think EBR would willingly leave the show because this is her first major show. She's in love with her character and I don't think EBR has the heart to do that to Felicity :p 

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

They had an alternative love interest for Laurel - they killed Tommy.

They had a widely accepted Black Canary - they killed Sara.

 

They've offed too many characters for anyone besides Oliver to be safe. I'm not a gambling person, but I would wager Laurel won't bite it. They've done everything they can to make her BC. They may off her down the road, but in the near future I can't imagine Oliver or Laurel will be found taking a long nap in the morgue. Everyone else is easily sacrificed to further Oliver and Laurel. Thea will be fish bait if Malcolm's goal is to take Oliver's sister in retaliation for Tommy. Felicity could still lose her head to Slade. Diggle could become the soldier lost to war. Roy might run out of weapons in his arsenal. Walter could choke on his overpriced steak. Lance could OD.

 

The point is I don't believe the writers will save anyone. They see GA and BC and they'll do what they want with the other characters. They killed a popular BC to bring in a BC who most people didn't want. I want to believe Diggle and Felicity are safe because I love the Holy Trinity. However, anything which gets in Laurel's way to becoming BC is expendable. 

[JJ928]

I agree with Ban1o, Felicity is safe. Now if she eventually becomes unpopular then I'd worry, but she creates the most buzz for the show.  Considering they've also used her to market the Flash - which annoys me - proves that they know her value. I think they're hoping that giving Felicity more to do, plus being Oliver's intended will make people overlook Laurel. Before this last episode, I didn't care about Laurel either way. She didn't bug me and I couldn't muster up a care in the world for her. After Monday, with Sara's death... I totally resent her.

 

It's not even so much about Sara dying, even though I loved her, it's the how and why. They admitted that her death was to put Laurel on a 'path', and that rubs me raw. Also, I know a lot of people are freaking out, but Sara was never a regular, she was always a guest star. Again, I'm super pissed they killed her, but I don't think her death automatically means they're willing to off the core characters that actually work. Yes, Tommy was popular but his death was obviously coming, and I feel like he was more loved after death than when he was alive.

 

At this point, they could dip Laurel in gold, have her save an orphanage, and resurrect Sara, and I still won't support her. I know it's stupid, petty, and makes me bitter but the writers managed to turn someone who didn't care, defended Laurel a few times, and was willing to have an open mind, to just hate her. From what I've seen I am not alone. This is going to bite them in the ass so hard. I'm just looking forward to the epic fail that Laurel will be in attempt to be like Sara.  Bravo writers, Bravo.

Edited October 11, 2014 by JJ928

[KirkB]

Felicity has a target on her back precisely BECAUSE she is so popular. If you want shock value you kill the most popular character (assuming that's not the star, who is generally safe) since they're the one you would least suspect. Do you guys think killing Felicity would doom the show? I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is the Arrow producers wouldn't be the first to make this kind if mistake. And killing her right now would seriously hurt Oliver since he's pushing her away in large part because he thinks (stupidly) it will keep her safe. The painful irony of that could be hard to pass up. All that being said I'm not sure they're planning to kill her, I'm just saying that it is a possibility.

 

On a separate note, is Arrow sexist? I guess that's a matter of opinion. I don't think so, though I can see why some people might. Manu was right in that all of Slade's targets were women but considering Oliver's circle, wouldn't they have to be? At the time there was Moira, Thea, Laurel and Felicity, and Sara too since Slade would not have known she was 'dead' at the time. The only men with Oliver were Tommy and Diggle, and I'm not sure he would even know the latter existed. Plus he was planning to kill the people Oliver loved most, and that would have been his surviving family (both women) and Laurel. Don't forget they also killed Robert Queen, Yao Fei, Tommy, and Malcolm (sort of). Should women be safe because they're women? And for that matter, wouldn't it also be sexist if they only targeted men?

[statsgirl]

At the time Moira was killed, Roy and Walter were also part of Oliver's circle although not as close to him as Moira or Thea.

 

It's true that Robert, Yao Fei, Tommy and Malcolm were killed.  But Robert took his own life, Tommy was killed by the earthquake and Malcolm didn't die.  Yao Fei was the only one who was executed.  In contrast, for the women, all three of them, Shado, Moira and Sara, were executed by men (unless it really was Laurel who paid for it), and all three were innocent at the time, unlike Malcolm.

Felicity has a target on her back precisely BECAUSE she is so popular. If you want shock value you kill the most popular character (assuming that's not the star, who is generally safe) since they're the one you would least suspect. Do you guys think killing Felicity would doom the show? I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is the Arrow producers wouldn't be the first to make this kind if mistake. And killing her right now would seriously hurt Oliver since he's pushing her away in large part because he thinks (stupidly) it will keep her safe. The painful irony of that could be hard to pass up. All that being said I'm not sure they're planning to kill her, I'm just saying that it is a possibility.

Yes. 

 

I don't think we can assume that AK and MG will make a logical decision because they seem to be  blind to the effectiveness of KC in the Laurel role and the audience's reaction to her.  Maybe that's why KC is always spouting Comics!, because she has inside knowledge that the show will follow the path of the GA/BC comics.  The writers like writing Felicity right now but they may get bored with her and decide to off her for maximal effect on Oliver.

 

I can see the WB and maybe CW executive saying 'No, Felicity is too popular' but I wouldn't count on AK and MG being able to talk them around.

[wonderwall]

Felicity has a target on her back precisely BECAUSE she is so popular. If you want shock value you kill the most popular character (assuming that's not the star, who is generally safe) since they're the one you would least suspect. Do you guys think killing Felicity would doom the show? I'm not sure that's true, but even if it is the Arrow producers wouldn't be the first to make this kind if mistake. And killing her right now would seriously hurt Oliver since he's pushing her away in large part because he thinks (stupidly) it will keep her safe. The painful irony of that could be hard to pass up. All that being said I'm not sure they're planning to kill her, I'm just saying that it is a possibility.

I agree. Killing off Felicity would add to that 'shock factor'. But shock only lasts for so long. Most of the people I know would quit watching the show if Felicity dies. Hell, I would quit if Felicity dies because if Felicity dies, Team Arrow dies with her (imo). Certain shows like The Good Wife can handle a death of a loved character because its ratings are already ridiculously high and they have the best creative staff, Arrow doesn't have that. Felicity brings something to the table that no one else can, and that's not just her expertise in computers. Like John said, Felicity is irreplaceable. Even Laurel joking around with Oliver didn't seem as right as it would've been with Felicity. 

 

But if shock factor, comic canon, and irony are the only reasons for killing Felicity off, then what's the point? It would be the most useless death on the show because it would provide no new material (since Oliver has already lost so many people), shock --like I said before--only lasts for so long, and the show wasn't made to cater to comic fans or canon. It would be like killing Felicity for the sake of killing a character. And I honestly don't think that Felicity will ever become unpopular. If one thing is for certain, the writers are passionate about Felicity, and that passion definitely translates to how Felicity is on screen (aka unstoppable badass bitch with wifi). 

 

However, you're right. There's always going to be the possibility that the writers will kill off Felicity. Hell, I've been seeing posts on IMDB and Reddit where people actually want the writers to kill off Felicity for that extra shock... It just doesn't make sense to me why they would do that. 

 

IMO the second they decide to kill Felicity will be the second they decide they don't want Arrow to be renewed for another season. 

[ban1o]

Wait sorry, why is Malcolm even being counted here? He didn't die lol. (And he was evil) 

Edited October 11, 2014 by ban1o

[JJ928]

I'm not going to worry about Felicity right now. I feel like she's pretty safe at the moment & if they kill her, I'll quit the show. Right now I watch for Diggle, Felicity, & Oliver, I love Olicity but I'd keep watching if they don't happen - as long as Diggle & Felicity are still around. I'm not going to assume what people like and don't like about the show, but everyone I know loves Felicity and has no interest in Laurel. Every character will have their detractors, so I don't worry about it. I'm going to wait and see what happens. A part of me wants them to make her BC fast, have her get panned by reviewers because that's the only thing they listen to, & see what happens. If EBR were to leave to another show, I'd follow her. Same goes for David. I love Stephen, but Oliver is not likable to me without his team.

[calliope1975]

 I loved Sara and she was a really developed character who had a back story, had faults and had many different facets to her. She didn't exist just to be a murder victim but she had a very important role in season 2 and obviously the killed her to pass the mantel to Laurel and to drive a mystery for season 3. I don't find that sexist of them. 

 

My problem with the decision to kill Sara is that there were other ways to get Laurel to become Black Canary. This whole 'there can only be one' female superhero is bullshit. It's annoying with Marvel and it's annoying with DC. I realize it's a much larger problem than just Arrow, but I'm over it. I'm over not being able to find merch with the ladies on it. I'm over having to watch women being sacrificed as a plot point. Before Wednesday night, I wouldn't have even said I was a huge Sara fan, but her death has pissed me off beyond belief.  

 

Bottom line for me is that Sara didn't have to die. She could have left town, never to be seen again. She could have retired as Black Canary. She could have dedicated herself to training her sister. She could have been injured. She didn't have to die. At the very, very least, she could have gone out fighting like the BAMF she was. And when these writers who make more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime can't figure out a way to progress their story without repeatedly brutally killing women (Shado, Moira, Sara,) I have a problem. 

 

*Disclaimer: I consider Felicity just as much a hero as Sara but for this discussion, I'm talking about masked heroes. 

[Happy Harpy]

I don't think that Arrow is more sexist than many shows. They did create different female characters, complex and/or sympathetic, and strong in different ways, too (and only one wet blanket) so it's better than many shows imo.

But I agree that the late trend is a bit worrying in that respect. Yet, more than Sara's death, for me it's the substitution of Laurel as the Black Canary that could be categorized as "ordinary sexism" (in the way that "every woman falls for the hero's magic penic" is); I mean the idea that two female characters are interchangeable in a certain role, although they are completely different in temper.

I already had this feeling when they made Sara "the girl" on the island -I agree that Shado was fridged for Slade, but I also had the feeling that there couldn't be two girls there, especially two possible love interests for Oliver, at the same time for too long.

But I still think, so far re:Sara, that the problem is more the writers' obsession with placing Laurel front and center, than sexism.

 

I'm bitter that I have to watch Black Canary on this show (which is called Arrow, BTW) at all.  I don't care about BC or her training or her rise to become a hero.  My single biggest issue with Sara last season was that I felt that she had way too much screen-time.  That didn't mean that I wanted her dead or wanted to trade her awesomeness for Laurel...it just meant I wanted her to drop by less frequently in the new season.  Now I'm going to have to watch BC again but this time there will be even more of that story?  No thanks.  If that's the story that they wanted to do, then they should have called this Arrow and Canary. 

My feelings, absolutely. I had no need for a Black Canary and I was vocal that I didn't want one. But as soon as Sara appeared, I accepted her. I thought that her first arc in season 2-A was nothing short of brilliant. So I was all in for the BC, a character on the run from the LoA, Oliver's ex who refreshingly didn't sleep with him again (and wasn't used to reactivate sister swapping) being a recurring presence as Team Arrow's ally. Because the writers created a compelling character in Sara and above all, an incarnation of the Black Canary that was unique to the show, and fit it to a T.

But again, imo, they want their outdated comic Black Canary version, and want Laurel for the role (or are imposed Laurel, I really don't know). And it will be a disaster for me, here's why.

 

I did have problems with Sara later on when they made her what I saw as a co-lead, sidelining in my eyes Diggle and Felicity and disrupting the balance inside Team Arrow, plus sister swapping back with a vengeance. And it was because they imo negated the very concept they has created in S2-A, to try and change her into original recipe BC, Oliver's on/off girlfriend and his sidekick of a crime-fighting duo. Which didn't work for me and didn't fit the show, imo, because it ignored its specificities (and the writers mistakes, including the sordid aspect of Oliver/Lance sisters). And if it got me fed up with Sara, a kickass, complex character who protected women, and whom I liked...you imagine with Laurel, a character I already can't stand.

 

For me, Arrow's real, one and only Black Canary is dead. And the only other one that I'd be ready to accept would be Sin. She's the only character who could legimately be Sara's heir (not "replacement") in my eyes, in the history and development of Arrow, the TV show.
Imo, if the writers want Laurel, as they created her, as  the old comic-version Black Canary, they'll have to destroy everything that is unique and original to the show, starting with Team Arrow, in order to make place for her. After season 2-B, I don't think that such a BC can coexist with the concept of the show as it is today. And it makes me incredibly bitter because there are so many things I love about Arrow, but I won't watch that.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Happy Harpy

[poetgirl925]

No offense, but if we're going to count Robert Queen (not a well developed character IMHO) in the same category as Moira, Shado and Sara, we might as well count Malcolm Merlyn's wife. I know she never appeared onscreen, but there's another woman who, by all accounts, was murdered and left to die in the street. Include her in a couple of flashbacks and she's on the same level as Robert. (That could happen since Merlyn's a regular now.)

As @dancingnancy pointed out, three strong females (two of them literally fighters) were offed in a span of 15 episodes. Should women be safe just because they're women? No. But why not Roy? He's not as well developed. I'm not saying it should have been him, but I am making a point here. I agree that they won't off their male heroes as eagerly.

Edited October 11, 2014 by poetgirl925

[Danny Franks]

I guess someone should ask the showrunners just why they seem so keen on the idea of defenceless women being executed. It's something I find repellant, but they seem intrigued enough by to have gone to that well three times in the space of fifteen episodes.

 

Shado shot in the head as she knelt at a man's feet, Moira stabbed through the heart by a man, and now Sara casually shot and thrown in the trash (probably by a man, let's face it). If a kid in school wrote stories like this for his English assignments, he'd soon be sent to a therapist to discuss his feelings about the opposite sex.

 

But really, it's probably something that they haven't even realised they keep going back to, and something they feel they can casually included to shock the audience. I don't know what would be worse, that they have done it so casually and without thought, dismissing these female characters as expendable, or that someone actively wanted to show these women rendered helpless and then murdered.

 

And it's true, these attitudes are not unknown, or even rare, in comic books, hence the origin of the 'fridging' idea. But that callous 'she's either there to fuck or get killed' attitude to women in comic books has hamstrung the medium for a long time (and what happened to Sara after Oliver stopped fucking her? Oh... dead). Is it any wonder that comic books have long been seen as the preserve of teenage boys?

Edited October 11, 2014 by Danny Franks

[dtissagirl]

For me, the litmus test of good writing for women is how that particular narrative makes lady characters interact with each other. And Arrow so far has made SO MUCH of the female interaction be about Oliver's dick, it's crazy. It's not intentional -- I really don't believe these writers are thinking about it at all. But, you know, the road to hell and good intentions. Pop culture doesn't exist in a vacuum, so the emerging pattern is a reflex of decades of institutionalized comic book misogyny and Hollywood patriarchal patterns.

 

So yeah, Arrow came up with great ladies. They are diverse and strong women, on their own super interesting, as complex as Sara and as compelling as Felicity. But the way they relate to each other is abysmal. The pattern for lady storyarcs on Arrow is all of Oliver's potential and actual sex partners have been put in adversarial position towards each other time and time and time and time again for two seasons.

 

It's the entire foundation of the Laurel & Sara story arc. Helena literally attacked Felicity, McKenna, Sara, and Laurel. They should give her a prize for that! Isabel hates Felicity and vice-versa. On the island, there can be only one between Shado and Sara. Felicity welcomes Sara into Team Arrow with open arms, but as soon as Sara is banging Oliver, Felicity feels her position as The Only Girl is threatened. And it's because the show itself believes there can be only one girl. All of these women can barely stand each other because in the end of the run, Oliver will pick one of them. The failure in Arrow's lady writing is that all of these women are always seen by the narrative as competitors in the run towards becoming Oliver's One and True Woman, and not much else. 

[poetgirl925]

I'm thinking of tweeting the writers - respectfully, and as a concerned female viewer. It's not something I normally do, but I'm really disgusted by this. I suspect some of it is also that they get distracted by all their shiny new characters and reason "Well we can't keep them all" but the way these deaths have been handled is horrible.

It also occurred to me that Slade's motives wouldn't have seemed so batshit ludicrous if he hadn't been targeting just women. (Kudos to Manu for touching on these topics - I love him.) Rewatching S2 made me think about The Dark Archer who went after Oliver in S9 of Smallville. Now in that case, the targets were all female, too. HOWEVER, the difference is that there was a code he was working from - no partners, no lovers, and no disciples IIRC. Chloe=partner, Mia=trainee, and Lois=lover. A similar scenario on Arrow would have made the men targets, too - particularly Diggle and Roy. Again, nit saying I want them to die - I'm making a point. That was kind of where I thought they were going with it when Slade first appeared and then it just unravelled. I'm still bitter that the Great Feud between Oliver and Slade was over Shado, who was objectified by both of them.

[Chaser]

I think the most distrubing thing about Sara's death scene was the manner in which they choose to kill her. This is a show thats all about symbolism. 3x01 was loaded with symbolism: Oliver and Olicity come to mind. Sara's death was packed with it in the worst way. It wasn't just the mask falling. It was Sara falling at Laurel feet and most distrubing: the Dumbster. There was no reason for that; they already made their point.

[TanyaKay]

I guess someone should ask the showrunners just why they seem so keen on the idea of defenceless women being executed. It's something I find repellant, but they seem intrigued enough by to have gone to that well three times in the space of fifteen episodes.

 

Shado shot in the head as she knelt at a man's feet, Moira stabbed through the heart by a man, and now Sara casually shot and thrown in the trash (probably by a man, let's face it). If a kid in school wrote stories like this for his English assignments, he'd soon be sent to a therapist to discuss his feelings about the opposite sex.

 

I do think the Arrow writers also need a session, or eight, with the shrinks to overcome their issues about offing women as plot devices.

 

For me, the litmus test of good writing for women is how that particular narrative makes lady characters interact with each other. And Arrow so far has made SO MUCH of the female interaction be about Oliver's dick, it's crazy.

 

It does make you think if there is someone in the writer's room who is fascinated by Oliver's junk.

[statsgirl]

No matter how many times I hear "well of course Sara had to die, that was obvious from the first time she appeared", I think No, not necessarily, and even if so, "She should have died hereafter, there would have been time for such a word."

It does make you think if there is someone in the writer's room who is fascinated by Oliver's junk.

Or is a nerd projecting madly.  What guy wouldn't want to be Oliver, superhero and all those women mad for him?

[dtissagirl]

No matter how many times I hear "well of course Sara had to die, that was obvious from the first time she appeared", I think No, not necessarily, and even if so, "She should have died hereafter, there would have been time for such a word."

Yup. This, a lot. From the moment she showed up in 2x01 there was a Sara Death Watch going on. The expectation was always that she had to die so Laurel could fulfill her Because Comics destiny. The bold move would have been to let Sara live and give Laurel a destiny pertaining to the story they're telling in the now, and not one that is expected from previous existing canon. Predictability is not a good quality in any open-ended narrative.

Edited October 11, 2014 by dancingnancy

[Lokiberry]

There's always the moment when the show jumps the shark; the moment when, even though things  might have been bad before, they were still fixable if only the writers would pull their heads out of their asses, but then the “thing” happens, and nothing can ever be right again. For example, with Buffy, it was the episode  Seeing Red, where Tara was murdered and Spike tried to rape Buffy. That season had been particularly dark and depressing, and many viewers were finding Buffy herself hard to take. The fans were increasingly angry and frustrated, and their were repeated calls to change course. The writers and producers had the option of backing off and recognizing that what they were doing wasn't working with most people. What they chose to do instead, was double down and power through to the end, with promises of making the following season lighter. What they got for their efforts was a smoking hole where their show had been. If you weren't there to see if for yourself, you can't image how bad the backlash was, and that rage didn't subside with time; it built over the summer. By the time the promised  lighter season arrived (it wasn't, btw), the audience was so angry that nothing could placate them. Viewers started to walk, and those that remained heaped ridicule on the show.

 

With Arrow, things went wrong in the middle of last season for a sizable chunk of the audience. We've all seen the frustration over the sidelining of Team Arrow, Laurel's addiction arc, Slade's descent into non-sensical raging manpain, but there was always the feeling that things could be put right if MKG would just cut the shit and start focusing on what they knew worked. But with Sara's horrible, and disrespectful death, and the certain ascension of Laurel as the new Black Canary, something's been broken that can't be fixed. Even if, by season's end, they cave to the growing backlash, and pull Sara out of  the same Lazarus pit that Malcolm clearly came from, it's going to be too late. They will have spent an entire season trying to shove Laurel and her fishnets down the enraged throats of an audience that just won't swallow. There will be too much bad will. Like Buffy, the audience will be too angry for them to make it right.

 

Arrow has jumped the shark. Nothing will ever be okay again.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Lokiberry

[Danny Franks]

The writers and producers had the option of backing off and recognizing that what they were doing wasn't working with most people. What they chose to do instead, was double down and power through to the end, with promises of making the following season lighter. What they got for their efforts was a smoking hole where their show had been. If you weren't there to see if for yourself, you can't image how bad the backlash was, and that rage didn't subside with time; it built over the summer. By the time the promised  lighter season arrived (it wasn't, btw), the audience was so angry that nothing could placate them. Viewers started to walk, and those that remained heaped ridicule on the show.

 

 

I remember it 'fondly'. Buffy tanked so hard, in the last couple of seasons, with all the 'Spike has a sooouuulll now' nonsense, and Evil Willow and all the potential Slayers. I've seen it happen to a few shows, and it's sad, but I think it's cathartic in a way, because you don't really get too nostalgic until years later. For the time being, you can just mercilessly kick the twitching corpse of something you once loved.

 

It's why I'll always adore Firefly. Like Nathan Fillion said about it, it was cancelled before it ever had the chance to suck.

 

It almost happened with Chuck, in season 3. They were pushing Shaw (oh look, Brandon Routh) way too hard as an obstacle for Sarah and Chuck, and even had Sarah reveal her real name to him, which is something that still makes me grimace to this day. They turned Chuck into a sadsack and then turned Sarah into a hypocrite, and the show, which had never been strong on the ratings front, was circling the drains. But they realised it, and pulled the plug on their plans for the rest of the season, to quickly get Sarah and Chuck together. And they managed to do it in an emotionally satisfying way, which rewarded loyal fans and gave us some really fun episodes to enjoy before Shaw returned for the season climax.

 

So anyway, I'm at the stage now where I kind of want to see Arrow fail, just to teach these showrunners a lesson. But I'd hate it at the same time, because the actors don't deserve that, and anyway, the showrunners would probably just blame something else and pull exactly the same shit on their next project.

Edited October 11, 2014 by Danny Franks

[wonderwall]

So anyway, I'm at the stage now where I kind of want to see Arrow fail, just to teach these showrunners a lesson. But I'd hate it at the same time, because the actors don't deserve that, and anyway, the showrunners would probably just blame something else and pull exactly the same shit on their next project.

I care too much about Felicity, Diggle, and to some extent  Oliver to want Arrow to fail. 

 

I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE FELICITY DOESN'T EXIST. :p God Idk what I'm going to do when Arrow ends lol

Edited October 11, 2014 by wonderwall