Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[SmallScreenDiva]

I would say binge-watch both shows. The Flash definitely for reasons already mentioned above. And binge-watching really works for Arrows, even when you're not a fan of certain characters. For one, you don't have time to think about it too much and brood about the bad stuff ;)

[wonderwall]

I really love flash. While I'm not emotionally invested in any of the characters like I am with Oliver John and felicity, it's a really feel good type show that leaves you feeling a bit lighter after watching it.

Also I must say, Eddie has quickly become one of my favorite characters on the show. It's a tie between him, Joe, and Barry. Cisco and caitlin are next afterwards :)

As for Iris... I don't love her but I don't hate her either. She's a great woman. Not at all like laurel because she's a warm loving character. I'm just waiting for her to get in on the secret because unlike with laurel I think Iris can do well after she gets in on the secret.

[KirkB]

If you have to choose between the two I'd say watch Flash. It's been fun so far and I am genuinely interested in seeing where it's going. Arrow, on the other hand, you might be better off waiting to find out where it ends up. At this point I get the feeling it's Laurelland and frankly that isn't a place I have any interest in visiting.

[BumpSetSpike]

I have really been enjoying the flash as well.  Cisco is actually becoming one of my favorite characters because he is such a superhero fanboy, it is adorable (and I'm not one who has ever been into comic books).   I enjoy the banter between Team Flash, and I like how there are huge questions that are intriguing (Wells being a big one like Moira was in S1 of Arrow).   There aren't any characters that rub me the wrong way (yet LOL), and I just enjoy the overall tone.

I miss when Arrow was filled with more banter between Team Arrow and a cool mystery line that kept me wondering what is going to happen.  Right now, I feel like I'm treading water with Arrow desperately waiting for it to hook me in again.  

It's Amell's fault.  If it wasn't for him being so accessible, adorable and sharing so much of himself, his Arrow cast/crew, and his enthusiasm for the show, I don't know if I would still care as much.  He makes you want to root for him. (Heck, I'm posting on Arrow threads and not on the Flash still).

 

Edited November 26, 2014 by BumpSetSpike

[statsgirl]

 I lose track of which EP is more aligned with which storylines, hence my skittishness re: The Flash.

That's what worried me when I heard Kreisburg was going to The Flash and leaving Guggenheim in charge of Arrow.

 

I like The Flash, it's good fun and as Matt Roush said, it's the show with no casting mistakes.  But somehow Stephen Amell, EBR and David Ramsey got me in my gut with Arrow and I'm having an awful time being able to quit it.

[MsSchadenfreude]

@tessaray  Here's another opinion on the Flash. It's not bad, but it certainly isn't something I would DVR or worry that much if I missed an episode.  I've probably watched 4 episodes and couldn't tell you the plot of most of them. The villains are pretty silly IMO.  Barry may be adorable, but he's just not that interesting when a whole show is devoted to his character.  Now, if the show spent more time on Harrison Wells' evil plans and Joe West instead of Barry, I'd probably be more into it because I do find both of those characters compelling.  Caitlin, Iris and Eddie are fine. Cisco is pretty much the Flash's version of Roy to me.  He's there and I don't care.

Edited November 27, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[Morrigan2575]

I love The Flash, it's fun and all of the characters fit well together. The Wells mystery and the Joe/Barry relationship are the best parts of the show (IMO). I also love Cisco, he's really funny and Barry is adorkable. My only real complaint is the Barry/Iris relationship/romance, they're using my least favorite trope...it never works for me. Iris is also a bit of a weak spot in that for the first 6 episodes she was completely defined by her relationship to men. This past episode took steps to fix that, but then took a step back in the end.

Ironically enough, I wasn't really planning on watching Flash, I wasn't thrilled with 2B and the magic jacket passing but I decided to give it a try and now I love it.

[tessaray]

I guess I'm going to take the plunge and catch up on Arrow and The Flash.  Well, I may skip (or FF) a few Arrows - it depends how much Laurel annoys me. I may be back in a couple of days to rant.  :-) 

[Danny Franks]

The Flash is pretty much the perfect example of throwaway TV. It's light, witty, easy to watch... but completely unmemorable. You can watch an episode, miss three or four, then watch again, and nothing important will have been missed.

 

Grant Gustin still doesn't convince me as a leading man, and I don't think he ever will. He just doesn't have the presence for it. His relationship with Iris is a serious problem, and I'm already skipping most of their scenes because they're so unpleasant to watch. Cisco is still the annoying, scrappy-do character.

 

Caitlin is pretty great, and so are Wells and Cop Dad 2. But they're not featured enough to make the show anything like appointment viewing.

 

Sadly for those enjoying the light tone, I imagine it is not long for this world. A show about the burdens of the future and the trauma of the past? Yeah, you'll be getting dark and gloomy Barry by mid-season 2. I'm also a little mystified as to why Geoff Johns claims that Barry is his favourite comic book character, then took most of Wally West's personality for the TV version. Kind of odd.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Danny Franks

[TanyaKay]

Also I must say, Eddie has quickly become one of my favorite characters on the show. It's a tie between him, Joe, and Barry. Cisco and caitlin are next afterwards :)

 

Mine too. Loved the episode where Eddie & Barry bonded and practiced some boxing. I really want more interaction and more bromance between them.

I think the character I find most fascinating in The Flash is Dr Harrison Wells. Arrow probably wanted Malcolm Merlyn to be something like this but they failed. Flash writers nailed Dr. Wells as this intriguing grey character that leaves you wanting to know more about him every week.

[Kordi]

It's Amell's fault.  If it wasn't for him being so accessible, adorable and sharing so much of himself, his Arrow cast/crew, and his enthusiasm for the show, I don't know if I would still care as much.  He makes you want to root for him. (Heck, I'm posting on Arrow threads and not on the Flash still).

THIS!!! Thank you for putting my thoughts into words! That is exactly how I feel. Actually, it was SA's Facebook page that made me watch Arrow (and not vice versa). Arrow is his big break through, and I really want it to be a lasting success for him, something that advances his career in the long run. But right now, I get the feeling that he himself is enjoying his own show less. It seems he is more enthusiastic about "Movember" and "F*ck Cancer" charity now. Of course, doing good is great, but it's a pity that, at the moment, he almost only shares ready made promotion material instead of commenting personally on the episodes. I miss that.

[olicityfan25]

I wouldn't be surprised that he seems less enthusiastic now. I mean if the show can diminish Oliver Queen by making all the other more unlikeable characters "super heroes" so fast than what's the point of it being Oliver's journey? It makes no sense to me why they are doing this.

[insubordination]

 

I think the character I find most fascinating in The Flash is Dr Harrison Wells. Arrow probably wanted Malcolm Merlyn to be something like this but they failed.

I don't watch Flash (will see if I'm going to start after this X-over), but I agree that is puzzling how little use they've made of Barrowman. I liked his scenes with Tommy. I liked watching Lionel Luthor mess with Lex on SV - one of the most interesting parts of that show.

 

Now Malcolm is Thea's father, and they're not even giving them many scenes though they play so well off each other.  They're lucky he's charismatic and does the best with what they give him. So did Susana Thompson and Colin Salmon. The show really needs good, solid actors and older characters are interesting to me. Killing off Moira hasn't made the show better.  It just seems so flimsy at the moment. David Ramsey has the solid, reassuring presence I'm after, and they've barely used him. I'm left scratching my head.

 

ETA: Totally forgot about Paul/Quentin. They might as well have killed him off too since he's been completely irrelevant so far this season.  Guess they're saving his fatal heart attack for Buckle's next 'island'.

Edited November 28, 2014 by insubordination

[Tangerine]

The Flash is pretty much the perfect example of throwaway TV. It's light, witty, easy to watch... but completely unmemorable. You can watch an episode, miss three or four, then watch again, and nothing important will have been missed.

 

Grant Gustin still doesn't convince me as a leading man, and I don't think he ever will. He just doesn't have the presence for it. His relationship with Iris is a serious problem, and I'm already skipping most of their scenes because they're so unpleasant to watch. Cisco is still the annoying, scrappy-do character.

 

Caitlin is pretty great, and so are Wells and Cop Dad 2. But they're not featured enough to make the show anything like appointment viewing.

 

Sadly for those enjoying the light tone, I imagine it is not long for this world. A show about the burdens of the future and the trauma of the past? Yeah, you'll be getting dark and gloomy Barry by mid-season 2. I'm also a little mystified as to why Geoff Johns claims that Barry is his favourite comic book character, then took most of Wally West's personality for the TV version. Kind of odd.

 

Replying in Mind Your Surroundings Thread!

Edited November 28, 2014 by Tangerine

[MostlyC]

Hope everyone had a lovely Thanksgiving- and for those outside the USA, a happy Thursday.

 

A reminder:  Flash has its own topic and thread.  Please take it and Flash recommended episodes there- the latest Arrow/Flash crossover episodes have not happened yet.

[Sakura12]

I'll give these writers credit. I'm not even watching this show anymore and it's still managing to make me angry and bitter. 

 

Or maybe I'm torturing myself reading spoilers hoping something will make me tune in again to a show I used to love. But so far I'm even more bitter than I was when I stopped watching after 3x01. 

Edited November 28, 2014 by Sakura12

[tessaray]

Ugh.  That was almost 6 hours (Arrow) of my life I will never get back.  But then it did show me where the charm, camaraderie and what little light Arrow used to have went - to the Flash.  Which was fun and intriguing and I enjoyed almost every minute watching it.  

 

So I guess I'm ready for the cross-over even though I'll probably stop recording Arrow once it airs.   

 

p.s. The episode Sara was one of the worst pieces of television I've ever seen.      

Edited November 29, 2014 by tessaray

[NumberCruncher]

From Spoiler Discussion thread:

 

It's the combination of no Oliver and the focus on Laurel that has me not caring. I'll wait to see what the East coasters say about the episodes before I bother. If there is some really good Team Arrow stuff, I can fast forward to that. And I have zero desire to watch

Sara give Laurel any kind of from-the-grave blessing

if that's the way the Show goes.

This. I couldn't care less about Laurel and her "drama" but the rest of the storylines haven't been that great either. Where's the deliciously twisted Malcolm/Thea relationship that I was promised? Why has Diggle been sidelined in baby land? Why am I being subjected to Oliver wallowing in his manpain (again) while Felicity is off in OOC Land with her creepy stalker--erm, boss? I do not understand what they are trying to accomplish with this show!

Edited November 29, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[BumpSetSpike]

 

Why am I being subjected to Oliver wallowing in his manpain (again)

 

Oliver made such huge gains since the pilot in terms of journey and character development.  Even if he had to fall back multiple times before he made steps forward that stuck during the first two seasons.  

 

However, They have reverted to this more whiney and moopy (not even as much sexy brooding) character in Oliver this season.  It almost feels like they have lost a bit of focus on Oliver's journey as well because they have been playing with all their new shiny toys (Flash, Ray, Laurel as Canary, etc.).  

Edited November 30, 2014 by BumpSetSpike

[TanyaKay]

Laurel as Black Canary can NEVER be a shiny new toy.

[Danny Franks]

Laurel as Black Canary can NEVER be a shiny new toy.

 

She's like that toy you get, that seemed like it would be great, but turns out to be so disappointing, and not very well made, that you want your parents to return it and get you something else. Only, they won't do it (guess they lost the receipt), and now you're stuck with this useless thing that doesn't really work alongside your other toys, and in the end you just stick it in a box somewhere and forget about it.

Edited November 30, 2014 by Danny Franks

[tessaray]

 

and now you're stuck with this useless thing that doesn't really work alongside your other toys, and in the end you just stick it in a box somewhere and forget about it.

 

If only...

[TanyaKay]

I am still not convinced they have to stick with her, they got rid of Sussana Thompson and Colin Donnell despite signing similar contracts, they actually want to stick with her and make her BC for some strange reason. Collective Masochism in all the executive producers I guess.

[Genki]

Elements I loved that I'm missing from this season's Arrow.

 

- Team Arrow

- Oliver/Sally

- Oliver Suits [especially half done with vest/suspenders/tuxes at the end of the night]

- Oliver Topless

- Work outs and Training [Ray Palmer does not cut it]

- Thea 

- Moira

- Oliver interacting with the world in a non Arrow sense

- Queen Consolidated

- Felicity's "not that short" skirts (seriously there are some weird length dresses and skirts on her this season)

- Olicity

- Olicity shoulder touches, face cupping, hugs!!

- Detective Lance (guys deserves more than Laurel's Storyline)

- Lance and Sara

- Slade Wilson

[tessaray]

I was happy to see Slade go by the end of S2 but I do miss the actor and his marvelous voice. 

[Danny Franks]

Slade as a present day bad guy should never even have been introduced last season. I said that at the time, and I stick to it. He was being set up as a long term nemesis for Oliver, and they already had one climactic battle in store, via the flashbacks. Doubling up on that really just lessened the impact. And chucking Slade into the Starling City mix made both Blood and Isabel little more than sidekicks.

 

It all just felt like the show was, as usual, rushing headlong through storylines that had so much more mileage in them than they were allowed. They keep doing that, and it keeps fucking ruining things. I said at the time that I'd have kept Slade as an off-screen malevolence in the present day scenes in season 2. Elevate Blood and Isabel, give them the mirakuru storyline, draw parallels between Oliver fighting and 'killing' Slade in the past, and fighting a more potent Blood in the present. Then, right at the end of the season, show the audience that Slade is still alive. End the season with him giving the speech about putting out Oliver's eye.

 

This season? Seems like they're out of ideas. Love triangles, new 'awesome' characters chucked into the mix, Sara needlessly killed off to prop up Laurel and start some mystery that no one cares about. But who cares anyway, this show will either continue for years as a shadow of what it could be, or it will fall apart within eighteen months.

[Genki]

Slade as a present day bad guy should never even have been introduced last season. I said that at the time, and I stick to it. He was being set up as a long term nemesis for Oliver, and they already had one climactic battle in store, via the flashbacks. Doubling up on that really just lessened the impact. And chucking Slade into the Starling City mix made both Blood and Isabel little more than sidekicks.

 

It all just felt like the show was, as usual, rushing headlong through storylines that had so much more mileage in them than they were allowed. They keep doing that, and it keeps fucking ruining things. I said at the time that I'd have kept Slade as an off-screen malevolence in the present day scenes in season 2. Elevate Blood and Isabel, give them the mirakuru storyline, draw parallels between Oliver fighting and 'killing' Slade in the past, and fighting a more potent Blood in the present. Then, right at the end of the season, show the audience that Slade is still alive. End the season with him giving the speech about putting out Oliver's eye.

 

This season? Seems like they're out of ideas. Love triangles, new 'awesome' characters chucked into the mix, Sara needlessly killed off to prop up Laurel and start some mystery that no one cares about. But who cares anyway, this show will either continue for years as a shadow of what it could be, or it will fall apart within eighteen months.

 

Since they did rush the Slade thing, I would like to see him as a reluctant ally or even in the suicide squad.

 

Last season you could feel his presence/machinations throughout, this season no baddie has really lived up to Slade.

[KirkB]

Last season you could feel his presence/machinations throughout, this season no baddie has really lived up to Slade.

 

Which is sad (but true) considering Ra's al Ghul is here and because of the way they're doing him no one seems to care.

[thuganomics85]

 

Which is sad (but true) considering Ra's al Ghul is here and because of the way they're doing him no one seems to care.

It really is weird how almost no one I know has been talking about Ra's.  He should have been one of the biggest things about this season, but his reveal was very quiet.  I think the way they rushed it and the lack of development really prevent it from being a huge moment (and, arguably, casting an unknown actor who didn't leave much of an impression in his first/only scene.)  I just find it funny that he's the Big Al Ghul in the comics, yet Nyssa's introduction was way more rememberable.  Hell, Captain Boomerang left a bigger impression in his only scene.

 

 Baring a miracle, I can't see him matching either Malcolm or Slade in the big bad department.

Edited December 1, 2014 by thuganomics85

[Morrigan2575]

Nevermind

Edited December 1, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[TanyaKay]

I love John Barrowman but his Malcolm Merlyn was never as scary for me as Slade Wilson was. Plus, we saw Malcolm sporadically in season 1 - half the time as Tommy's smarmy father. Slade has been with us since season 1, first as a reluctant ally, then as a friend and mentor and then as an adversary, so we knew him better than most characters. Plus Manu Bannett's presence and his voice made that character so compelling and likeable despite being a villain.

So far, no other villain came even close to what Slade Wilson has been as a villain, he was smart, powerful, got under the hero's skin like nothing else and had the sinister voice to die for.

[calliope1975]

Slade was a great villain, even with his shoddy motivation, and they used him way too soon. Ra's should be a series ending villain, and from what I've seen so far, he barely has the gravitas to pull off a one-off episodic villain. I really hope I've proven wrong on that. How do you miscast Ra's?? Whereas I perked right up and paid attention in the 10 seconds Boomerang was on screen.

[TanyaKay]

All the men in Spartacus - barring Liam McIntyre - were great so it is but natural that Nick Tarabay's Digger Harkness would be awesome as well. 

I personally think that Slade will come back - Manu is too delicious to let go of. He would be back, probably in later seasons to wreak havoc with Oliver's life once again - minus mirakuru - which would make them more of equals. He probably also has an axe to grind with Felicity considering that she cured him of his power after which, Oliver managed to beat him. Now that he is free of Mirakuru, he would be less deranged and much more smarter which would make him even more awesome.

[olicityfan25]

I love Manu Bennett. He was so good as Slade. I do miss him and I would gladly have him back on this show if it means Team Arrow (Oliver, Diggle and Felicity) working together to take him down.

[Sakura12]

So far we have Sara, Thea, Malcolm, Cupid, Komado, Nyssa, Roy and even Laurel all having perfect aim with a bow. Everyone being good with a bow kind of takes away from Oliver's skill set. Why is he needed if anyone can learn to be as good as him in a few months?

 

Why are we watching Oliver's struggle and journey if anyone can wake up one day and become a vigilante just like him.

 

Doing all these other origin stories also takes away from Oliver's story. Sara's story at least was partially connected to Oliver's journey and Roy is side kick. Laurel and Ray have nothing do to with Oliver. It appears they are trying to make their own star pointless. Maybe that's why Stephen is not as thrilled about this season. 

[Danny Franks]

So far we have Sara, Thea, Malcolm, Cupid, Komado, Nyssa, Roy and even Laurel all having perfect aim with a bow. Everyone being good with a bow kind of takes away from Oliver's skill set. Why is he needed if anyone can learn to be as good as him in a few months?

 

Why are we watching Oliver's struggle and journey if anyone can wake up one day and become a vigilante just like him.

 

I guess Oliver is just really shit at learning vigilante skills. That's the only explanation really. Why did they pick some clot who takes five years to learn a skillset that can be acquired in a few short months as their hero? No wonder they're looking to sideline him in favour of much worse actors.

[KirkB]

So far we have Sara, Thea, Malcolm, Cupid, Komado, Nyssa, Roy and even Laurel all having perfect aim with a bow. Everyone being good with a bow kind of takes away from Oliver's skill set. Why is he needed if anyone can learn to be as good as him in a few months?

 

Not quite the same. Komodo has been an assassin, with the bow, for some unspecified amount of time probably since before Oliver wound up on the island. Nyssa was raised by assassins and trained in many different weapons, including the bow, for most of her life. Cupid and Malcolm are lunatics who spent an inordinate amount of time practicing (she could also have taken archery lessons), in Malcolm's case with help from the same people as Nyssa. Now while Thea was trained by Malcolm, we have not seen anything to indicate she has anywhere near Oliver's ability with the bow, she can just shoot it well because she was taught by a master lunatic. Sara is in the same shoes as Malcolm, having spent years training, not just months. Roy was taught by Oliver, specifically for doing the things he's doing. As for Laurel, we have only seen her fire a bow one time that I can remember and she did so at a huge wall of rock like ten feet in front of her. So long as she has the physical strength to pull back and hold the string all she really had to do was point it and let go. She didn't hit a tennis ball at a hundred yards or anything.

Edited December 1, 2014 by KirkB

[Morrigan2575]

Yeah, I don't like the whole "become a hero in half a season" and both Laurel and Roy's characters are guilty of that. When they introduced Cupid last week, I was annoyed at another person who became a vigilante in the space of six months

The way I look at Roy is that he took his first steps towards being a Vigilante/hero in 118, this was his come to jesus moment. The realization that he wasted his life doing bad things and once saved from death wanted to do better.

Roy then spent 119-122 (on and off screen) searching for the Hood, wanting to thank him and learn from him. In 123 Roy has his first hero moment, he saves people from the crashed bus. This is highlighted with a heroes kiss, dramatic music and lighting.

In 201 we find out that Roy spent 5 months off screen going out every night busting up drug dealers and stopping rapists. Now this isn't formal training but when you're life is on the line you're going to learn fast.

In 202 we have Roy going out trying to stop the Triad from stealing medical supplies. In 202 we also have the start of Roy being am unofficial member of TA. Roy now becomes Arrow's street contact. Roy helps Arrow in 203, 206 and goes to Arrow for help in 208.

Roy then gets injected with Mirakuru and gets formally brought onto the team. From 212-218 Roy is part of TA, he's training with Diggle, Sara and presumably Oliver. After that he goes a bit mental, ends up in a coma and then gets cured in time for a second hero moment. Roy plays a small part in the S2 finale fight. Oliver calls him in to assist with the Mirakuru takedown but that's it.

In 301 we finally see Arsenal emerge as a fully fledged sidekick.

By my count we're talking 1.25 seasons and (118 to 301) and in show time 19 months March 2013 to October 2014. We also need to keep in mind that as a sidekick a large part of Roy's hero's journey is done in costume at the heroes side because his role is to be part of the hero/mentor relationship and and drama/angst.

I really don't think they've rushed Roy at all, he's fairly spot on for a sidekick role.

Edited December 1, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[TanyaKay]

Plus he already had some fight and parakour skills when he stole Thea's vintage purse. So he was not an enraged novice.

[MostlyC]

I am sure you will all be surprised, nay, shocked that Arrow-Flash crossover is tonight and tomorrow!

 

I'm cribbing from Lisin:  If the majority of your post is  bitterness about what's going on with Barry and the gang in Central City it should go in The Flash forum not here. Thanks again!

 

Meanwhile, I'm going to be putting Ollie on a salmon ladder on my wishlist to Santa.

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

I kind of went off in the spoiler discussion thread. My apologies for the cussing. I wasn't going to say anything more, but I had a few more thoughts. They are bitter about relationships so I'm dropping them in here.

 

Oliver Queen will never deserve Felicity Smoak unless he is willing to invest whatever time he has left with her. It doesn't have to be every minute of every day. It can be the time he has between catching villains and mending fences with his sister. Every argument Oliver has for not being with Felicity is negated by his actions. She's a distraction - he is still distracted although this time it isn't with the memories of the softness of her lips. His life is dangerous - jackass she's been a part of your life for 2+ years. She's been in danger without the benefit of holding your hand or warming your bed. He's probably going to die soon - all our clocks are ticking down. Felicity could have a brain aneurysm tomorrow. Then how would you feel about not giving it a shot with her you spineless douche. Ahem.

 

From a story standpoint putting these two crazy kids together doesn't mean Arrow loses its action-adventure tag and moves into the drama-romance department. Heck putting these two in a relationship might decrease the soap opera portion of the show which is chewing up time. 

 

A payoff for not having the five months of O-l-i-c-i-t-y becoming Olicity would have been a good first date, subsequent relationship, and the resulting flirty-flirt and sexy times between the sheets. Instead the not-quite-relationship is chewing up time, headlines, polls, and threads. Inadvertently the show has become a soap opera.

 

In life love is about deciding the person you are attracted to is more important than all the things you may have to give up or they are worth trying to balance/compromise. Felicity never asked Oliver to give up being Arrow. She's supports him. It isn't a balance or a compromise it is a partnership. Even as a friend she's shown concern for him. The concern doesn't skyrocket just because they kiss and hold hands now. Felicity has supported him rich and poor, in sickness and in health, and in intelligent decision-making and not so intelligent decision-making. 

 

There will never come a time when keeping a couple apart for the foreseeable future is a good decision by the writers of books, movies, or TV shows. Giving them a short shelf life away from each other can make for a good story. Attempting to flip two magnets which are pulling towards each other around so they fight against each other is a bad move. Eventually your audience will distance themselves from you.

 

I know many aren't watching Arrow for Olicity. i wasn't either at first. The most important part of the show for me was Team Arrow. Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity made the show for me. I knew eventually we'd welcome others into the Arrow Cave. I accepted it. Heck I knew love interests would pop up. I like that Diggle has Lyla. I was hoping for Oliver and Felicity to get it together because on Oliver's show Felicity is good for him. I also thought they wouldn't screw with the dynamics. 

 

Instead because the writers suck we have a fractured Team Arrow and a show which is finding itself swirling the flush faster than most any other I've ever watched. For that I am extremely bitter. If the writers approached Olicity as adults in the real world instead of as TV writers, the show would improve by leaps and bounds. Real life can give us some of our greatest lessons both in what to do and what not to do. 

[statsgirl]

Yes to all of that.

 

The Team Arrow and Oliver/Felicity scenes in Flash vs Arrow were so good, and they just reminded me even more how much we've lost on Arrow with the stupid plot lines of this season.  You can still do it guys, write a great show, if only you'd stop trying to deliberately screw things up for yourselves.

[writersblock51]

Watching the Flash tonight and seeing so many elements of Team Arrow that I love - Felicity as the comm center, Diggle as back up and Oliver taking lead (but with Felicity guiding him on more than 1 level) AND THE SNARK! - made me realize a few things that I'm bitter about, with this season:

 

1) my tolerance of Roy is one thing.  I didn't even realize he wasn't in it until about half an hour after the show was over.  Oooops!

 

2) No Laurel. I didn't have a single moment of impending dread since it looked very obvious to me that she wasn't going to be on this episode or even mentioned in passing.  As much as I enjoyed a Laurel-free episode with lots of Team Arrow action, I'm so disappointed that we've already wasted ample & precious screen time on her this season. 

 

The absence of both Roy and Laurel meant, to me, that neither of them warrant a road trip to solve a serious crime.  And Team did what they could do without even mentioning, "I wish Roy/Laurel was here, they'd know what to do!"

 

Meanwhile, Feliciity's absence is always remarked upon and SHOWN to be an issue for Oliver. 

 

So why are Roy and Laurel taking up screen time if their absence from a majorly marketing and hyped episode is barely noticeable.

Edited December 3, 2014 by writersblock51

[statsgirl]

I can see a role for Roy in terms of a third person out in the field.  Diggle's got the brains but Roy can still be useful.  However, I can't see a role for Laurel Canary, especially since she still can't fight.  She's be most useful to the team working as, oh, maybe a lawyer?

 

I don't think either of them would have added anything to the FlashvsArrow episode though.

[wonderwall]

Diggle was already sort of scarce in this episode, adding Roy into the mix would've been overkill because it would've robbed us of great Diggle moments. Plus, Roy wouldn't have been useful in this episode. Digg was there for comedic relief, Felicity was there to connect Arrow and Flash, Oliver was there to brood and teach Barry... What would Roy have done other than be in the background? It goes to show how much of a nonentity he is. 

 

I think that if there are any future crossovers it'll probably be the same. No Laurel or Roy no matter how integral they are to the plot (which I don't think they ever will be). 

[writersblock51]

It has to be telling, to a degree, though that 2 of the characters - including the credited female lead - can be absent from such a "TV Event" because they bring so little of value to the show.

 

I'm tolerant of Roy on Arrow, and I'm hoping that his path is more substantial than being the partner who does a fancy flip and then gets taken out. There's nothing he could have added to this episode.  And I think that's very much worth noting.

 

As for Laurel, her absence shows that unless the show is in her city, she has nothing to do on screen.  I'd have been OK with a phone conversation between Quentin and Felicity to tie him in, somehow, discussing the boomerang case. 

 

I'm hoping the show is paying close attention to this stuff and giving it serious consideration.

[Pyramid]

 

I wish Roy/Laurel was here, they'd know what to do!"

I think that is a really good point. You just can't imagine any character say that about those two. Forgiveable for Roy's character, but for someone who was supposed to be the female lead, well it just shows how profoundly the writing/actin has failed that character.

Compare and contrast to Sara, I can definitely imagine everybody in the cast saying that about her.

[KirkB]

Well, Laurel is busy being DA and punching Ted, and would have nothing to provide the team in the field, especially since she isn't actually part of the team anyway so there would be no real reason for her to be there. Roy, on the other hand, they may have left in Starling in the event something happened while they were gone and a masked vigilante was needed to shoot something with arrows.

[Chaser]

Oliver, Felicity and Diggle are also the only ones with a connection to Barry and know that he is the Flash. Oliver is so big on his identity being a secret….pause for laughter…he probably wouldn't want to bring anyone else into Barry's. It makes perfect sense why it was only them. 

 

That being said, there is a problem when the female lead isn't needed in the big TV Event on the network. Even Iris had a fairly large part in the Flash episode, but 

Laurel is only briefly in the Arrow portion.

. 

[Sakura12]

I think that is a really good point. You just can't imagine any character say that about those two. Forgiveable for Roy's character, but for someone who was supposed to be the female lead, well it just shows how profoundly the writing/actin has failed that character.

Compare and contrast to Sara, I can definitely imagine everybody in the cast saying that about her.

 

Not only that. I can see Sara fitting in with Team Flash along with Team Arrow. Barry would like that Sara wears black for urban camouflage, Cisco would think she's hot and Sara might be interested in the weapons he makes, Sara having a forensic science background is something she, Caitlin and Barry could talk about. Wells would probably know she's an Assassin with the League. Plus her tortured yet warm persona helps her connect with people. Felicity and Dig would vouch for her along with Oliver. 

 

I just cannot see Laurel fitting in at all. She'd probably still think of them as the help and start ordering them around, then she'd want to find a way to steal Barry's powers and think about calling herself the Black Flash or something. She's got such a cold, hard edge personality that I can't see Team Flash connecting with her. Just like she doesn't mesh well with Team Arrow along with bringing nothing new to the team. She's not a fighter, she's not tech, she's not science and they already have law enforcement with Quentin. What purpose to Laurel serve? The only reason is because comics say Black Canary is around Green Arrow. When that's not even true anymore. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by Sakura12