Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[statsgirl]

The break-up was contrived and stupid but what annoys me more is what they're doing this season.   From the CEO who wanted to manufacture the chip so that everyone who needed it could afford it,  Felicity is reduced to being "mommy" to the newbies and providing the most bland boyfriend in the world to give Oliver an excuse to go out and sleep around.  There is nothing for her but to support the men around her, and not as the tactician who helps break Diggle out. And in spite of Felicity being kidnapped and attacked a number of times, it's Curtis who gets training, never her.

They've done a major job on the female characters in general on the show.  For the third season in a row, Thea's storyline is about being someone's daughter, or replacement daughter in Quentin's case, and now she also gets to be someone's sister and run the mayor's office for him.  They added six new characters in the present, seven if you count Curtis, and only one is female, and her purpose seems to be entirely to provide someone for Wild Dog to to tell his POV to.  If you missed Canary Cry last season, you wouldn't know why she even wants to be a vigilante.  In the flashbacks, there are no female characters at all.

This has become a show for the comic book bros.  I'm not surprised women directors don't want to work on it.

Edited November 6, 2016 by statsgirl

[EmeraldArcher]

20 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

They added six new characters in the present, seven if you count Curtis, and only one is female, and her purpose seems to be entirely to provide someone for Wild Dog to to tell his POV to.  If you missed Canary Cry last season, you wouldn't know why she even wants to be a vigilante.  In the flashbacks, there are no female characters at all.

This has become a show for the comic book bros.  I'm not surprised women directors don't want to work on it.

Unfortunately, you forgot about the other new character in the present: Susan Williams. A woman who has been shown to be manipulative and dishonest and who has violated the ethical code of her profession--but, she's SEXY, so Oliver has to earn HER approval.

[insomniadreams88]

24 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

From the CEO who wanted to manufacture the chip so that everyone who needed it could afford it,  Felicity is reduced to being "mommy" to the newbies and providing the most bland boyfriend in the world to give Oliver an excuse to go out and sleep around.  There is nothing for her but to support the men around her, and not as the tactician who helps break Diggle out. And in spite of Felicity being kidnapped and attacked a number of times, it's Curtis who gets training, never her.

They've done a major job on the female characters in general on the show.  For the third season in a row, Thea's storyline is about being someone's daughter, or replacement daughter in Quentin's case, and now she also gets to be someone's sister and run the mayor's office for him. 

I honestly wonder if they forgot about the chip entirely. Have they even mentioned it since 417?

As for Felicity getting some sort of training, I feel like they think that training = getting a mask. They forget that back in season 1, Diggle trained her. After everything she has been through, it just looks stupid that she hasn't had, in the very least, any self-defense lessons. If they don't want to show it, at least mention it. Or maybe they don't want to show Oliver training her for some reason. I don't know. 

Speaking of Thea, I had high hopes for her after last season's finale and this season's premiere. But since then, it's like you said. She's again someone's daughter/doing Oliver's job for him. 

[kes0704]

Before the season started MG / WM said they would be dealing head on with the effect of Havenrock, but it looks like it was a one and done story. That and Felicity having a boyfriend were the only discussion points they had because anything else was too spoilery to talk about.

Brian Ford Sullivan also took to Twitter before the season started to assure fans that Felicity's story would start in 502. But, five episodes in and I'm struggling to figure out what that story might actually be as now that Havenrock appears to be over nothing else has really been setup. 

With the large number of new regular and recurring characters, and more being added in 5B, it's hard to see how they can do justice to all of them in only 42 minutes an episode.  

I know it's only been five episodes (and it is Oliver's show) but the track record for anything Felicity related is for it to be pushed back and back until they "run out of time".  I'm really not hopeful that this season will be any different.  

Edited November 6, 2016 by kes0704

[statsgirl]

I keep hoping they're going to drop Wild Dog and push Curtis back to doing tech where he was actually likable but no, they seem to be doubling down on having them fight and take centre stage.

I had hopes for Felicity's Havenrock story since even EBR said it would go through to 505 but nope, as soon as she was used to introduce Ragman, Havenrock is done. Meanwhile I bet we haven't heard the last of Wild Dog's  history and woes.

52 minutes ago, EmeraldArcher said:

Unfortunately, you forgot about the other new character in the present: Susan Williams. A woman who has been shown to be manipulative and dishonest and who has violated the ethical code of her profession--but, she's SEXY, so Oliver has to earn HER approval.

I didn't count her since she's only on for 3? 4? episodes, as I didn't count Church who was only on for 5.  Rene, Rory, Evelyn, Mayo, Chase and Prometheus since he will presumably be this season's Big Bad.

Edited November 6, 2016 by statsgirl

[popgoesculture]

I think I should quit Arrow... which makes me sad, but also relieved? I just am seriously doubtful it'll get better/turn back into the direction of the show that I know it could be. It's so frustrating week after week to see the characters that I was attached to become more and more unrecognizable. And all the behind the scenes stuff doesn't make it any better (and seeing someone lay out all the issues with the characters/BTS stuff in tumblr made me realize that the list of what I also consider wrong with the show is incredibly long and depressing). I thought avoiding spoilers this season would help, but it didn't. Now I've read some, and they just convince me it's time to bail. 

So here's me asking -- how did you all do it (if you did)? Are you stockpiling eps in your DVR, waiting to see if the show takes a turn for the better, or just cutting the cord completely? Do you just watch the youtube vids of Felicity and Diggle scenes? I have such a weird morbid curiosity to see how much of a wreck the show is, but there's so much better tv to watch. 

I might wait until after the big crossover, but I don't know if I can do it. 

[calliope1975]

2 hours ago, popgoesculture said:

So here's me asking -- how did you all do it (if you did)? Are you stockpiling eps in your DVR, waiting to see if the show takes a turn for the better, or just cutting the cord completely? Do you just watch the youtube vids of Felicity and Diggle scenes? I have such a weird morbid curiosity to see how much of a wreck the show is, but there's so much better tv to watch. 

I think it's an individual decision. Some have already quit full stop. Some have just let episodes pile up. Some keep on watching every ep hoping it will get better. I've quit for now, but may be back based on spoilers and East Coasters reactions to episodes. (I did that in S3 as well.) I usually can cold turkey quit a show once my enjoyment level is outweighed by my anger or frustration level. I just did that with The Walking Dead. I had no problem walking away. But, usually, there's just one show that I love for whatever reason that I hang in there and that after a bunch of unnecessary angst and grief, I finally let go of. That may be where Arrow is headed with me.

[lemotomato]

2 hours ago, popgoesculture said:

So here's me asking -- how did you all do it (if you did)? Are you stockpiling eps in your DVR, waiting to see if the show takes a turn for the better, or just cutting the cord completely? Do you just watch the youtube vids of Felicity and Diggle scenes? I have such a weird morbid curiosity to see how much of a wreck the show is, but there's so much better tv to watch. 

I've been deciding on whether or not to watch episodes based on the reactions of people on this board. For episodes I skip I look for Olicity/Felicity/Diggle clips on youtube. It was how I watched most of season 3 too.

This season does feel a lot like season 3, except for the added antagonism from the writers on social media. Back then, it was just MG wreaking havoc when he regularly answered asks on tumblr.

[NumberCruncher]

2 hours ago, popgoesculture said:

So here's me asking -- how did you all do it (if you did)? Are you stockpiling eps in your DVR, waiting to see if the show takes a turn for the better, or just cutting the cord completely? Do you just watch the youtube vids of Felicity and Diggle scenes? I have such a weird morbid curiosity to see how much of a wreck the show is, but there's so much better tv to watch. 

Obviously people should decide what's best for them but I'm at the point of stockpiling episodes.  I really liked the first 3 but the last 2 have been incredibly "meh" to me.  I said at the beginning of the season that I would give it 5 episodes in which to decide whether to watch live or just keep them on the DVR for future viewing until things start turning around and making sense again.  I ultimately came to the conclusion that between the sub-par writing and the EP/writer rudeness with fans that I'm exhausted by it all.  I haven't given up completely--I just have limited patience to devote to a show that only seems to go round and round in circles.  If things wrap up well by the end of the season then I'll use the summer hiatus to get caught up.  If it continues to be a hot mess then I haven't wasted a bunch of time.

[statsgirl]

Brian Ford Sullivan tweeted that ep 506 (on Wednesday) is the "thesis statement" for the season.

I'll give it one more shot.

[kismet]

6 hours ago, popgoesculture said:

I think I should quit Arrow... which makes me sad, but also relieved? I just am seriously doubtful it'll get better/turn back into the direction of the show that I know it could be. It's so frustrating week after week to see the characters that I was attached to become more and more unrecognizable. And all the behind the scenes stuff doesn't make it any better (and seeing someone lay out all the issues with the characters/BTS stuff in tumblr made me realize that the list of what I also consider wrong with the show is incredibly long and depressing). I thought avoiding spoilers this season would help, but it didn't. Now I've read some, and they just convince me it's time to bail. 

So here's me asking -- how did you all do it (if you did)? Are you stockpiling eps in your DVR, waiting to see if the show takes a turn for the better, or just cutting the cord completely? Do you just watch the youtube vids of Felicity and Diggle scenes? I have such a weird morbid curiosity to see how much of a wreck the show is, but there's so much better tv to watch.

I'm totally with you about not realizing how long and depressing the list of things I considered wrong with the show. When I put together that list of the females in the bitterness thread, that was only the tip of the iceberg and that could have sunk a large ship.

I'm old school and record the show on a VCR. I know really old. But I do this, so I don't have to give the CW Arrow any ticks. I then catch up with the episodes before I need to record over it. I used to remember being so eager to watch the episodes, if I had missed it because I was out or at work. Then making sure to watch eps on the CW official site to get the numbers up. Now I squeeze it in and even FFwd through scenes with some of my former favs. I've never Ffwd through Arrow before. Seriously never.

I've given up on spoilers and episode commentary here. I just couldn't justify spending time discussing episodes that I'm so blase about. Even when I get mad with the episode, it just doesn't last long enough to care to write about it. The last thing I have is the characters, and I just hope that I can find someway to hold onto them through all the malarkey the writers put them through. Plus, I don't want to bring people down with my thoughts on the episodes if it is rooted so deeply in negativity. I love reading everyone's witty and insightful commentary. But time is short and I don't want to give anymore of it to Arrow. It's them, not you :(

It did help to quit all Arrow related social media. I still do follow fans, but honestly it keeps me off Twitter sometimes knowing that I will get an unhealthy dose of Arrow. And I don't read any articles that discuss Arrow, skip over when they show up in spoilers. I make some exceptions if people bring up some interesting ones here. But in general, I'm trying to remove Arrow from my mental, emotional and social headspace.

[kes0704]

I wish I could quit it completely, but for now I'm stockpiling episodes in the hope that at some point it gets better.  That being said, a few more condescending comments from the EP's and writers might push me into hitting the delete button very fast.

In the meantime I've started watching a couple of new shows to fill the time I would have spent on Arrow.

[tv echo]

I've been watching live but may start recording soon. I think I've been hanging in because I've already invested so much time and energy into Arrow.  I have several Word documents (hundreds of pages long) containing collections of spoilers, relevant news articles, topical EP/cast quotes, Olicity moments from all seasons, etc.  If I stop now, my collections will be incomplete and my compulsive nature rebels at the thought.  But who knows - I may have a breaking point.

[Mellowyellow]

I'm worried my fanfic writers will quit writing! And I'm worried I'll get to a point where I can't read fanfic. I may stop reading spoilers etc if I find myself not enjoying fanfic anymore!

One of the best things about Arrow was the fanfic!

I still love Felicity though. I don't know if I can stop watching Felicity scenes. If they did something decent with her I could keep watching it even if my ship was well and truly dead. 

Haha knowing these writers I'm half expecting them to write an awesome new ship and then kill it and stick a stale Olicity together at the end when no one cares or wants it anymore!

[insomniadreams88]

Thanks to all the reruns on TNT, I was reminded that I'm currently bitter that it's like the show forgot/doesn't care that Donna is Felicity's mother. Since she and Lance broke up (off-screen, and that whole, she's in "heaven," oh, working in a casino, still bugs me because it was just awkward), it seems that they've decided that she has no reason to be in Star City. I wouldn't be surprised if she's not even mentioned unless it has to do with Lance. 

[looptab]

I think avoiding spoilers might be a good strategy for those who are in a limbo right now. In the past I found myself in the position where the actual episodes of the shows I was following never lived up to what I had built  in my mind based on spoilers, and giving them up helped me enjoying the shows more.

[Coop33]

I've been busy watching baseball for the last month, but this past weekend when I finally had the opportunity to catch up, I didn't want to. My interest in the show was already dwindling heading in the season, but the behavior of the writers and producers behind the scenes has also made me want to quit out of spite. For now, I'm stockpiling the episodes and hoping that the show will eventually head back in a direction I want to watch. 

[quazimodo]

I made a clean break last season during BMD.  I still check in on  the spoilers and episode threads every now and then hoping that something will pull me back in but there are better comic book shows out there and not even my love for Ms Smoak, Olicity and OG Team Arrow can make me watch full episodes filled with plot and no substance. Same thing happened with Smallville (In the end I only ever tuned in for Chloe- centric episodes).  Unfortunately The Arrow writers can't even seem to be bothered about writing real stories for non-masked characters/ the women on the show so there are likely to be no Felicity-centric episodes to tune back in for.

[SonofaBiscuit]

My season 3 rage turned into season 4 apathy, and then the BMD finished off the only part of the show that I even remotely cared about.  Had the show actually gone "back to basics" in season 5 and focused on OTA instead of adding 50 million new masks, I might have kept watching, but nah.  Spoilers are what cemented my decision (absolutely nothing coming up interests me), so I'm glad I stopped wasting my time and just quit for good.  Add in the nastiness coming from the EPs and writers (just yuck!), and I'm not sure I would consider returning unless there was a huge shake-up behind the scenes.        

[dtissagirl]

I think I'm more bothered by MG and the writers being gross on Twitter than I am about the show. But also, for me to not know about MG and the writers being gross on Twitter, more than quitting the show, I'd need to also quit the entire fandom cold turkey, and I don't want nor like doing that.

[tv echo]

I'm just sad today. Lately Arrow has been a slog to watch or post about... and it used to be my entertainment escape.  I've stuck with the show through the good, the bad and the ugly, for four long years, mostly for OTA and Olicity.  But now those elements seem to be disappearing from the show.  I definitely think the EPs are doubling down on comic book elements and don't care about ratings (or the fans) now that they've passed 100 episodes.  

I think I'll watch through 509, but I may not continue after the mid-season break. However, even if I quit Arrow, I'll probably still check in with this forum - just not as often, nor will I post as much. Anyway, that's how I feel right now.

Edited November 9, 2016 by tv echo

[RussianRoulette]

Thank heavens for the unlimited benefits of the bitterness membership card! 

Disclaimer: I am not quite drunk enough, unfortunately. 

I wrote before why I was quitting Arrow. Today I am dejected, devastated, and hopeless. As a woman, I can no longer support or watch a show that disparage (and at that in a condescending and insulting way) women. 

I thought hard and long about writing this post, but I needed an outlet. I think DR's response regarding Sara was the straw that broke the camel's back. I love DR but how can he be so fucking oblivious?

I am at loss for words regarding everything that is so utterly misogynistic about the whole comics universe. More than that I am sad and disappointed that the one character that was not "originally comics" but was written as a strong, intelligent, competent woman, has been completely overturn to be this dependent, second -rate, manpain-propelling, character. 

This is is deeply insulting. More than that it is a painful realization that we, as women, do not matter. 

So, I would like to give the middle finger to MG and everyone involved (creative, PR, etc.) with this show. They will not have my hard earned dollars anymore. 

As a woman of, I think, significant intelligence, but somewhat limited coping skills, I still owe to myself to be true to what I believe in. Arrow has been my form of escapism for a long time but it failed to be that for quite a while. MG's comment cemented that feeling and his tweets regarding the political situation doesn't help matters. So, no. 

Thank you all members for being level-headed, intelligent individuals, I have learned a lot from you. It is a pleasure to read all your posts. I will continue to do that. 

[calliope1975]

I was thinking today about buying S4. If I rewatch the entire show, with some copious editing of S3, and then stop at S4E10 or whichever episode ended with Oliver giving Felicity back her ring in the hospital, that's a pretty good show I'd have there. Much more enjoyment than I've gotten with other shows I've watched.

Look, that wasn't even that bitter. Progress! 

[Mellowyellow]

8 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I was thinking today about buying S4. If I rewatch the entire show, with some copious editing of S3, and then stop at S4E10 or whichever episode ended with Oliver giving Felicity back her ring in the hospital, that's a pretty good show I'd have there. Much more enjoyment than I've gotten with other shows I've watched.

Look, that wasn't even that bitter. Progress! 

Do you really want to give them your hard earned cash?

I do think it's a good idea though to pretend it ended early. 

I'd end at the end of season 3 and read au fanfics for the rest of my days. 

408 makes me squick.

[calliope1975]

4 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Do you really want to give them your hard earned cash?

I do think it's a good idea though to pretend it ended early. 

I'd end at the end of season 3 and read au fanfics for the rest of my days. 

408 makes me squick.

408 was gross, and I will never watch it again. (I actually don't think I've ever watched it.) But up to that point, I was really enjoying S4. Plus, I plan on waiting until the holidays roll around and catch a deal on Amazon. And possibly using a gift card. :D

[kismet]

14 hours ago, calliope1975 said:

I was thinking today about buying S4. If I rewatch the entire show, with some copious editing of S3, and then stop at S4E10 or whichever episode ended with Oliver giving Felicity back her ring in the hospital, that's a pretty good show I'd have there. Much more enjoyment than I've gotten with other shows I've watched.

Look, that wasn't even that bitter. Progress! 

You do what makes you happy. I thought I could do something similar with s3 last year. I bought it on Black Friday, sat on it for a few weeks and then returned it less than 90 days later. Their mid s4, BMD & manufactured drama did not help their case.

Until I see some consistent improvement in their treatment of character development for the core cast (not the newbies) and less for plot manufactured drama, I can't in good conscience give them money or the encouragement.

[Sunshine]

I think I'm more sad than bitter.  When I started watching this show it was a drama/action show based on DC Comics characters.  It has morphed into a  comic book show with lots of masks but little story. 

[calliope1975]

11 hours ago, bijoux said:

I don't think Sin was any older when she posed as a hooker in s2.

 

1 hour ago, HunterHunted said:

The cast is far too large this season and used so inefficiently. Additionally, the team arrow trainees seem to have very little backstory motivating their desire to be vigilantes. They should have slowly introduced the newbies. It could have dovetailed with all of the new vigilantes that Laurel's death inspired. I feel like the first half of this season should be Oliver trying to keep the new vigilantes in check and trying to reach out to have them join him. How much more profound would Wild Dog's realization that he can't do it on his own when he ruined a police investigation and accidentally created a super powered gangster have been if he had been off heroing on his own. And with the proliferation of vigilantes, the city should feel like it's under seige. There would likely be collateral damage and at least one vigilante should have a very rigid view of what crimes deserve punishment.

I was thinking about the boobs and why I have little to no desire to see them on my screen. This isn't really a bitter post; I'm more perplexed, but I couldn't think of a better thread in which to post this comment. Why was I so immediately intrigued by Sin and still wish she'd come back? What was it about Roy that makes me miss him while I have no use for these new people? I really liked Curtis last year, and this year, I'd rather he leave. Quickly. 

Is it the way the characters were introduced? The actors? Why is Rory the one character I wouldn't mind staying?  Sin didn't have much of a story at first. She was tough, knew Sara, and teased Roy. Yet, Teen Arrow felt so much more real and interesting than the New Boobs. Was it BTK, CH, and WH's chemistry? I'm completely confused as to why some characters work and some don't.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but all this popped into my head after reading the above comments. 

[kismet]

36 minutes ago, calliope1975 said:

 

I was thinking about the boobs and why I have little to no desire to see them on my screen. This isn't really a bitter post; I'm more perplexed, but I couldn't think of a better thread in which to post this comment. Why was I so immediately intrigued by Sin and still wish she'd come back? What was it about Roy that makes me miss him while I have no use for these new people? I really liked Curtis last year, and this year, I'd rather he leave. Quickly. 

Is it the way the characters were introduced? The actors? Why is Rory the one character I wouldn't mind staying?  Sin didn't have much of a story at first. She was tough, knew Sara, and teased Roy. Yet, Teen Arrow felt so much more real and interesting than the New Boobs. Was it BTK, CH, and WH's chemistry? I'm completely confused as to why some characters work and some don't.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but all this popped into my head after reading the above comments. 

It's funny, I didn't miss or appreciate Teen Arrow until we lost it. I used to have no use for that plot line because I was far more invested in OQ, OTA, MQ and even LL in s1. However, I soon came to realize that I really did enjoy Teen Arrow. Their scenes were enjoyable, believable and had great chemistry. I think it was also because they were always part of their own storyline. They weren't trying to replace OQ or OTA. There were overlapping plot points, but it did not contribute to the further pulling down of OQ's character.

In s4, the show went out of its way to prove that everyone was equal and OQ was not a true leader. He was brought back against his desires and it was unclear exactly who or why he stayed. I think that was the moment I began to get upset with the newer characters or enhanced roles. It literally felt like show suicide to say that everyone else if better and more important than the main character. Arrow is supposed to be OQ's hero journey, not everyone's hero journey. It feels like the show made a major tonal change from telling OQ's story to telling the story of how to save SC. News Flash, not everyone is invested in saving SC. I didn't sign up for a save the city campaign. I signed up for a hero's journey tale.

So for me the characters that seem to do better are the people that either enhance OQ's story like FS & Dig, or the one's that have an engaging side story that compliments OQ's journey, not infringes on it. Roy & Sin complimented OQ's story. The Noobs infringe on it. For me LL was an interesting character when she complimented OQ's journey in earlier season, the minute she became a mask and began to be a fighting equal, I call bullshit on the show. SL's journey on the show was separate and unique unto itself, but still complimented the main story. Her death at the start of s4 is fitting considering the direction of the show. For SL, would not have easily fit into this new world of Arrow. Where everyone is a mask and talented, despite what reality and lack of actual skills informs the audience. SL would have laughed at the ridiculousness that now has full reign over the show.

Curtis for me is interesting, because I could only tolerate him if small quantities last year, but so many people seemed to love him. This year, now that I can blend him in with a good portion of the show that I don't care for he doesn't irritate me anymore. Although I don't really know what the point of his character is anymore. He's just another mask. At least last year, he was seen as another brain or POV. Now I spend more time wondering how they get his hair into such tiny braids? And really if I was masked vigilante is there really enough time to sit there braiding hair. I made fun of LL for the matching lipstick and nail polish, I feel like MrT's braids are on the same level of absurdity. Just get the guy a tight hood. I'm sure Rory has some scraps of fabric to spare.

Ultimately, for me it feels like the writer's are done telling OQ's journey. They finished it off is s3, despite having a lot more to cover. And everything since that drive off in the sunset has been a new story, they really have no idea how to tell. They are diluting the hero's journey across too many people. They are trying to tell a large team story, when the show is set up as small team show. They trying to save SC to the point they elevated it to OQ's primary LI this year. How desperate can you be? That is not the story Arrow promised in it's pilot. They've lost sight of the story they meant to tell. And somehow think that by copying previous seasons, they can somehow get it back. For me the creatives are like people lost in the woods trying to retrace their steps. All the noobs just feel like breadcrumbs as opposed to actual character or plot points. We were promised a phenomenal hike with views & adventure, instead we're stuck walking around in circles getting hungrier and more frustrated by the moment. It's poor writing, but I also think the acting/directing misses the mark. Eventually we'll get back on track or perhaps we'll just perish in the wilderness. It's really too early to tell.

Edited November 17, 2016 by kismet

[tangerine95]

I think for me at least it's because I feel like they pushed the newbies too hard too fast on the show as well as in the promo stuff and imo most of them don't even have a good reason to be there and bring nothing new to the show.All of them are just extra muscle and just another mask. The only one that stands out for me is Rory and that's mostly because he's been the least pushed of the newbies, he has a good reason to be a vigilante unlike for example Curtis and he has good chemistry with Felicity and Oliver.But even he has the issue of his powers not fitting in on arrow. 

Sin was interesting and had a fun relationship with Sara and Roy but she didn't sideline regular characters, she wasn't given a huge amount of screentime and was involved in a storyline that made sense and actually benefited main characters like Thea and Roy so it was easy to accept her. Roy was brought in slowly and also didn't take away from other characters and he knew his place as the new guy on the team unlike most of the newbies so he wasn't annoying to me either even tho I didn't think CH was much of a actor.

For the newbies it's like the show is just forcing it and trying hard to make these characters fit where they don't and aren't needed and in the process they're ignoring characters and relationships that do work so it just feels off no matter what they do. 

[ComicFan777]

I think the reason why I connected with Sin, Roy, Curtis, and Rory when they were introduced is because of the organic emotional connection between the newbie and an established character that brings out a new side of the established character that we normally don't see.  Sin was like the little sister Sara never had (a caring sisterly relationship that I didn't see between Sara and Laurel).  Roy was the lovable but tough puppy around Thea.  Curtis as Felicity's friend allowed me to see glimpses of Felicity's POV.  Rory's connection to Havenrock allowed me to see Felicity's guilt.  These characters all brought added dimension to characters I'm already interested in, so they make me want to know more about them.

This season we are introduced to too many characters with no real connection to the established cast, nor do they bring out a new side of the old cast.  Wild Dog doesn't seem to want to connect with anyone so it is hard to relate to him - although we are starting to see a small glimpse of him connecting with Diggle, so we'll see how that goes.  Evelyn still comes across as the bratty teenager.  Susan first tried to submarine Oliver and Thea, so even with the 180 on being friends or whatever seems unearned.  

To me, this season really lacks heart so far - it's just been plot, getting from one point to another, introducing new characters to lead us from one spot to the next with no buildup or characterization.  I still don't really know what motivates Wild Dog or Evelyn to want to be on the team.

Edited November 17, 2016 by ComicFan777

[calliope1975]

@kismet and @tangerine95 - You fleshed out what I've been thinking. When S3 ended, I felt that was more of a beginning for Oliver's hero journey, and it became more of an end. He has a lot to learn, but instead we keep rehashing the same things he's already learned over and over and over again. Plus, the new characters aren't complimenting Oliver, they're taking away from him, but not replacing OQ with anything substantial or interesting. 

[kismet]

7 minutes ago, ComicFan777 said:

 I still don't really know what motivates Wild Dog or Evelyn to want to be on the team.

 

PLOT. :)

[BunsenBurner]

I think the reason I don't like the boobs is because it feels like they, the EPs & writers, are doing another pilot and I'm sick and tired of those and want to enjoy the show for its regular cast since we haven't done so since the second season. Can't we just have our show back?

[calliope1975]

55 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

One last thing related to that: I find it hilarious that they're hanging the emotional weight of this season entirely on a character that viewers (broadly speaking) famously never quite engaged with--hoping that we did, just enough to feel something when they go on and on about Laurel and her legacy--while dismissing the importance of several other elements that viewers famously did engage with, and rolling their eyes that we bothered to have feelings about them at all. Okay, very logical, great storytelling, perfect PR strategy.

I brought this over from Spoilers because my response is more disappointment than related to spoilers. Not only do they seem to be basing huge emotional beats on a character that was, let's say, divisive, the retread of S1 isn't working for me. At all. They're completely recreating scenes which comes across more as lazy than as an homage or call back. What's worse - since all the characters seem to only be one note this year and as it seems they are also ignoring the entire last 4 years, SA has regressed both as Oliver and as an actor. There is some good stuff happening on screen, but I can't connect to him anymore. He may have been playing Oliver as a PTSD survivor in S1, but why is he making those same choices in S5? I think that's what I'm most disappointed about. TA brought out the best in both the characters and the actors. They could find that same chemistry with the noobs, and I see it the most with Rory, but it's lacking everywhere else. 

[ladylaw99]

Ok I finally watched the SA video. Like others have said it is not what he said but the delivery.  SA needs his ego in check. Not that long ago nobody knew who he was, heck SA could walk by my husband and he would not know who he is.

He is not saying nothing he hasn't said before. He is walking the company line, selling the show. He needs to remember that these people who go to these cons are spending a lot of money and giving up their time to interact with them.

I am not invested in this show enough to ever attend a con, but everyone deserves kindness no matter what the reason is.  It was not too long ago that he relied on  the Fandom for his other projects and people do not forget that so he would be wise to treat his fans with respect - he needs to remember that as quickly as you get fans is a quickly as you lose them.

SA I know it's a tv show and that you are not really saving the world because if Oliver  were we would be worst off then it is. Thanks for reminding us little people who can't tell the difference.

The only good thing I can say about SA is his charity work, but other than that I am just not that into you.

[tv echo]

I'm mostly angry at SA for his recent comments at HVFF-Atlanta because he contributed to a popular but inaccurate stereotype of Olicity shippers. Recent real life events have taught me that if you tell a Big Lie loudly and frequently enough, many people will believe it.  A Big Lie in the Arrowverse is that all Olicity shippers only care about romance and nothing else.  SA's comments just feed into that Big Lie.

And with the audience egging him on (with cheers and applause), it seemed like SA was playing along in diminishing a fan who was expressing genuine concerns.

Arrow should be a balance of a lot of different elements - heroes and villains, action, fights and cool stunts, for sure. But it also needs relationships, emotion and heart - familial bonds, friendships and, yes, romance. And all of these elements must make sense and be consistent throughout the series. 

If I complain about one or two of these elements, it doesn't mean that I don't want or care about the other elements. It just means that I don't have a complaint about the other elements (at this time).

ETA: Also ditto what @ladylaw99 said above.

Edited November 21, 2016 by tv echo

[Mellowyellow]

I only care about Felicity and the romance and I'm not ashamed of it.  To me Arrow was a dodgy B grade show with a dour looking lead actor and dour angry looking female lead. I didn't touch it with a barge pole. I only watched because I discovered Felicity and found her utterly charming and thought that if they could create such a character and pair her with the dour looking lead (who was significantly less dour when in scenes with her) it must not be such a terrible show.

I still think it's a dodgy show that thinks it's better than it really is but I'm obsessed with Felicity so I'll keep watching her scenes until they drastically cut her airtime.  

I'm sure there are people who think it's brilliant or whatever and good for them but to me if Arrow doesn't have good ship it's got NOTHING. I watch other shows for decent storylines, characterisation, good acting etc. 

[dtissagirl]

I used to think I liked Arrow for more than my 'ship. I mean. I knew I was able to look past the wtfuckery in previous seasons because once Felicity happened in 103, I knew in my bones that I would stick out the problematic shit if I could watch some 'shippy scenes in the meantime. My level of viewer sophistication disappears completely when I have a 'ship to root for. I can overlook almost everything if there's a fun romance being dangled in front of me that keeps my rooting interest high.

But now this season I'm realizing I actually do not like Arrow [well, Oliver] if there's no 'ship in it for me. Which is why I turned off an episode halfway through a few weeks ago, and haven't watched since. I realized that it's Felicity that makes me like Oliver. From episode 103 to episode 423, I had root interest in Oliver because of Felicity. First she was the person who made him broke the facade, then she was a partner/friend, then he was into her, then he was brooding over her, then he was with her, then he was brokenhearted over her... but it's really super simple: when Oliver is ABOUT Felicity, I like him. Now that he is temporarily über noromo and not about her, I don't like him. And then I don't like the show either as a result.

And like, I'm painfully aware that the show is ~about Oliver~ ~Oliver's journey~ ~Oliver's story~, and Oliver is more than whatever he feels about Felicity at any given time. I just realized I kinda [very] do not care about everything else Oliver is/does/has if he's not about Felicity. Paying attention to the rest of the show outside the 'ship, acknowledging the show is MORE than O/F -- like Steve mansplained yesterday at his panel -- turned out to make me actively dislike the protagonist of the story. And I don't like disliking Oliver, so I stopped watching. I figure once they resume Oliver being about Felicity again, I'll go back to liking him again and resume watching.

Tl;dr: 'shipping makes me like the show. Noromo-ing the protagonist makes me dislike the show.

[Chaser]

OTA and Olicity got me into the show. When OTA fall by the wasteside I didn't like it but I could focus on Olicity. Now I have no OTA and Olicity is getting cozy on the backburner. I'm struggling with what is left.

I was pleasantly surprised by the noobs in the first few episodes but I started resenting the boobs hardcore the moment I realized Felicity and Diggle were going to be shoved aside. Their storylines were tied up in a bow so they could focus on the boobs. And it really doesn't help me that the one I don't like,  gets all attention.

Olivers journey, his story, is a mess. Watching him repeat the same lessons over and over isn't fun for me. Watching him be dumb as a box of rocks isnt fun. 

[ladylaw99]

At the end of the day it is a TV show that is made to entertain us.  It is just falling short for me.

At first I thought it would be interesting show to see someone so tortured not just physically but emotionally, That is not the show I got.  I lost interest real quick but like I mentioned before Diggle and Felicity kept me and Oliver became likable. I watched for OTA.

Now I not sure what I am watching.  The first few ep's weren't bad but, Felicity's ark (if you want to call it that) was terrible and so is Diggle's situation.

Like Chaser above said, I too have a hard time watching Oliver be dumb in present day but yet I suppose to believe he was smart enough to make it through five years of suck.

They keep saying the show needs to grow but, the show isn't.  It is just repeating. How many times do I need to watch Oliver make the same mistakes.

I would be happy with Diggle and Felicity scenes or even Felicity and Rory.  Oliver right now is season 1 Oliver and I don't like him.

[emarasmoak]

I used to like Oliver when he progressed, apologized to people when necessary, listened to others, was a leader and a good fighter, cared about his sister/family/partners (=OTA, Teen Arrow, Sara). I don't like him much now. Mostly I am bored by him and most of his dudebros/ masked new friends that are taking time from other characters that I care about. The only one that (was) mildly interesting is Ragman. And I am (vaguely) intrigued by the DA. I can't stand WildPuppy and I am bored by Evelyn, MrNOTerrific, Detective Mayo and Unprofessional Reporter

Edited November 21, 2016 by emarasmoak

[SmallScreenDiva]

The way actors and EPs talking about it (they were probably given them as talking points) adding new people is Arrow growing. It's not. They're not contributing much to Oliver's journey, to Arrow's story, if Oliver has already learned those lessons in the past. As has been mentioned before, it's just repetitive. And let's not kid ourselves, these masks weren't brought in to further his journey. They were brought in because WB wanted to sell more merchandise. 

44 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

From episode 103 to episode 423, I had root interest in Oliver because of Felicity. First she was the person who made him broke the facade, then she was a partner/friend, then he was into her, then he was brooding over her, then he was with her, then he was brokenhearted over her... but it's really super simple: when Oliver is ABOUT Felicity, I like him.

This is me, although I'd extend the eps until 503 when he looked to her for approval for everything he did with the noobs. I can ignore a lot of things about Arrow, when I have a ship I can enjoy. And I'd long come to the realization I don't like Oliver very much. I find him boring on his own, probably because the writers wouldn't let him be a three-dimensional character, reducing his journey to "am I this or am I not"? 

[Chaser]

It's just super weird. They are intentionally making him closest to S1 Oliver in present day S5 when that should be when he is the furthest from that character. 

[dtissagirl]

I'm super sure if they kept the new VERY procedural vibe + the boobs being trained/deployed, but had put O/F back together first, and kept them happy 'shippy in the background, I would be loving this season.

Alas, the lack of O/F makes me not want to watch Oliver at all hahahalol this is never not gonna be hilarious to me. I've loved every other version of Oliver Queen on his own, by himself, for his characterization. In the comics, in the cartoons, on Smallville. This one is only likeable to me when he's into Felicity.

[tangerine95]

Yeah I'm basically realizing for sure no way would I watch this show for Oliver if Felicity didn't come along to make him likable. I don't think my only issue this season with Oliver is that he doesn't have a romantic storyline with Felicity, it's imo because he doesn't seem to have an emotional one at all or if he does its literally the same thing he dealt with like twice already or they're having  him go through it with new characters I couldn't care less about.

They're making him all about both his jobs, his personal life kinda got lost. He just seems emotionless most of the time and if he's not then he's angry and seems pissed off for no reason.It wasn't that bad in the first 3 episodes but after episode 4 I really started noticing it. 

I honestly don't get this shows need to insist that adding a bunch of new characters keeps it fresh or brings in new dynamics or whatever.They literally haven't had most of their regular cast interact in a real way in seasons. Like Felicity and Thea never developed a relationship on screen and barely shared scenes.Same for Diggle and Thea, Lance and Felicity etc.Felicity and Digg haven't shared more than like 2 scenes a season since season 2.

It's crazy to me that they're acting like they explored the main cast dynamics for all they can get so they need like 5 new characters to bring in new dynamics. I get bringing in new characters but Arrow brought in a whole new cast this season, it's just too much. I get that they were told to add more masks most likely but I feel like they could have done that in a more gradual way.

[statsgirl]

2 hours ago, dtissagirl said:

I'm super sure if they kept the new VERY procedural vibe + the boobs being trained/deployed, but had put O/F back together first, and kept them happy 'shippy in the background, I would be loving this season.

Ditto.  But it seems like no one on that EP team has any idea of how to write on-going relationships, all kinds, not just romance ones.  The only thing they know is to bring them together, break them up e.g. Digge/Oliver), bring them together again.  If there's no relationship drama on the show, it's failing.

If there was anything happening on the show that  I was interested in, I wouldn't be so bitter.

[kismet]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Ditto.  But it seems like no one on that EP team has any idea of how to write on-going relationships, all kinds, not just romance ones.  The only thing they know is to bring them together, break them up e.g. Digge/Oliver), bring them together again.  If there's no relationship drama on the show, it's failing.

If there was anything happening on the show that  I was interested in, I wouldn't be so bitter.

Ditto. I loved OQ and his journey. I did not need FS to make him likeable or invest in his journey. I was there with or without her. She definitely improved the ride though. Complete upgrade. However, I'm not surprised that s5 is making my whole being hurt in regards to OQ. Because we stopped being about his journey somewhere in s4. S5 is just a continuation of their crappy storytelling. OQ is not on a journey right now, he is stuck in a repeating holding pattern of rinse/repeat. He is like a record that keeps skipping. He is living Groundhog Day over & over again. It's a Box Step dance he is doing. He's repeating the down, with perhaps some penalties on the play. He is living every metaphor of going nowhere. The show is the living embodiment of the Mannequin Challenge this season.

It's getting a little insulting that they think this is the show growing. I get talking points. But seriously, the show is not growing. It's just replicating itself but the parts incompatible with life or enjoyable entertainment. I haven't seen legitimate growth in over a year now for any of the characters.

[HJCougar]

4 hours ago, SmallScreenDiva said:

This is me, although I'd extend the eps until 503 when he looked to her for approval for everything he did with the noobs. I can ignore a lot of things about Arrow, when I have a ship I can enjoy. And I'd long come to the realization I don't like Oliver very much. I find him boring on his own, probably because the writers wouldn't let him be a three-dimensional character, reducing his journey to "am I this or am I not"? 

And even then, once he decides what he is (usually the last episode of the season) by the next season's premiere he has become undecided again.  They just keep doing the same season over and over and the same realizations over and over, every now and then they throw in new, unwanted, masks so they can say...see, it's different.  Same story, same backwards movement, no true growth whatsoever.  It's like watching a year long Groundhog Day loop.  Their writers have the easiest job on television.  All they have to do is take the previous year's scripts and swap out character names.

[Chaser]

Looking back at how excited I was at Laurel kicking the buckle and what I thought it meant....dang.

I was convinced killing Laurel was a sign the show was ditching Because Comics. I thought Olicity would get more promotion. I thought EBR would get leading lady treatment finally. I thought the other characters would get to actually interact. I couldn't wait to see what the writers could do without the burden of writing for a character they didn't like.

Instead, it's a different Because Comics. Olicity is not happening at the moment. Character interaction is a rare commodity.

Head meet desk.

I apparently see this show completely differently than the show runners. Sigh.

The first few episodes were not terrible by any means. I just think the BTS attitude is making me bitter and reminding me how disappointed I am.