Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[bijoux]

Well, Laurel's guys were really polite waiting for their turn for her to pirouette up to them. I ascribe it to DD's insistence on having manners.

[kismet]

I'm only mildly bitter that OQ was not the focus of the action this week. Because it's what I would expect from Bamford. As a Stunt Guy/Coordinator, actors like SA are a threat to his job security. Sure its nice for BamBam to be able to train & teach SA some of the basics, but to have an actor willing and capable of doing his own stunts that is a threat. Since BamBam finally had a chance to keep OQ more in the background of course he did. KC & WH need BamBam & his stunt teams, so it makes sense that he would highlight their fights over the more actor-capable inclined shots. 

 

To be honest, I'm more bitter that it has become a trend to just allow OQ to stand around watching the others. But I think that is a side-effect of having team-up group missions all the time. Personally I think that is why after the winter finale, they need to somehow move the plot to involve more buddy missions and less group field trips. Seriously does it take that many people in the field to get the job done? Also I'm getting beyond bored/bitter with let's take down a truck action scene.

Edited November 19, 2015 by kismet

[hogwash]

They definitely need to thin the herd. They'll never convince me all 4 of them need to be there for these fight scenes. Especially for a recon or retrieval mission. How many times can Felicity go "we need to get [blank]" and all four of them get into the car like it's rare outing for the freaking family. But it doesn't work because it's not a rare outing. It's a trip to the freaking grocery store. Why are they all there?? I know it's obviously for the inevitable/repetitive fight scene but I don't have to like it.

 

I'm also over Oliver surveying from rooftops/gates during these boring missions.  

[EmilyBettFan]

The fighting is really annoying. The only thing that surprised me was Ray going there. Nothing else

[EmeraldArcher]

I'm bitter about the lack of really impressive archery skills from S1-2. To me, seeing Oliver toss a handful of tennis balls and then nail each one to the wall before they stopped bouncing was WAY COOLER than seeing him use all the trick arrows, especially the grappling arrows. I swear he uses his bow and arrows as more of a transportation option than he does as a weapon anymore. Gah!

Also, I'm still bitter that I'm supposed to believe that a hero needs only to twirl near a bad guy to knock him out cold. That's the go-to fighting technique of BC! Ugh.

I want more parkour, amazing archery, and GRITTY fights.

[wonderwall]

I apologize for all the LL negativity you guys... I feel like LoT will bring out a lot of it. 

[Angel12d]

I apologize for all the LL negativity you guys... I feel like LoT will bring out a lot of it. 

 

It's understandable though. Sara looks incredible in that LoT trailer and it does make you feel bitter that we lost that simply because her name's not Dinah. What a travesty.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Angel12d

[wonderwall]

Me 10 years from now when I'm rewatching the show: Ugh, Laurel....

 

Because I don't think even time, time to think about the character, understand her motivations, will make her character better for me. And I feel like Laurel will be that character that the media will look back on and wonder, why in the world wasn't she written off? 

[Sakura12]

I just saw a tumblr post that said we could replace Laurel with a chair and absolutely nothing would change. 

 

I laughed out loud on that one, because true. 

[wonderwall]

I just saw a tumblr post that said we could replace Laurel with a chair and absolutely nothing would change. 

 

I laughed out loud on that one, because true. 

To be fair though... She did 2 useful things in 4 years that other characters probably wouldn't have done...

 

1. Resurrect Sara
2. Figure out that Blood was a bad, bad man

 

The first one is debateable because if Laurel wasn't around Sara wouldn't have had to have been resurrected considering she probably wouldn't have died to service Laurel's story. 

[Sakura12]

1. wouldn't be needed if Laurel were a chair and 2. It was actually Sara's protege Sin that figured out Blood was a bad man because he murdered her friend. 

[wonderwall]

1. wouldn't be needed if Laurel were a chair and 2. It was actually Sara's protege Sin that figured out Blood was a bad man because he murdered her friend. 

 

So basically she's useless :p

[kismet]

I just saw a tumblr post that said we could replace Laurel with a chair and absolutely nothing would change.

I laughed out loud on that one, because true.

A strappy chair to accommodate the buckles of course :)

[Sakura12]

Can you imagine Oliver staring at a picture of his favorite chair while on the island. Lol. 

 

Maybe if I pretend that Laurel's a chair that happens to be in the shot, I can enjoy Arrow again. 

[dtissagirl]

So I think I quit Arrow? I don't know yet, I usually only realize I've quit a show when I try to watch the next episode, and it just never happens. UGH.

 

But you know what makes me want to HULKSMASH forever? Oliver lying to Felicity for reasons, and Who's in the Grave come from the exact same school of storytelling -- one that has nothing to do with character development. Hell, it doesn't even have much to do with writing for plot [although it is writing for plot, but the motivation is perversely more external than usual]. It's fucking WRITING TO GET A RISE OUT OF THE AUDIENCE. The characters' motivations for their actions are grounded in making fandom mad. And just. NO.

 

But apparently Guggentroll gets off on including the audience's reaction into his story for kicks, so I might have to get out because I refuse to be manipulated like this. Yuck.

Edited December 3, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Password]

Tbh I had the same thought. I'm at my tether's end with the way they make Oliver stupid for plot. If the writers don't care about Oliver, why should I?

Next week will potentially be make or break for me. I just need something to hold onto otherwise why bother? They've tainted a beautiful relationship, every gooey thing I see between Oliver and Felicity now is tainted by this SECRET.

Please, please give me something show.

[Angel12d]

I'm definitely going to give it a few more episodes but I don't know why they would take such a great relationship built over three plus seasons and ruin it with the most contrived crap. Unless that's exactly what they wanted to do but I don't know why they'd go to such trouble to show Felicity as the love of Oliver's life, his link to humanity and peace and happiness and then destroy all of that in a single episode. What was the point of it all? It's leading on Olicity fans and pissing off hardcore comic canon fans all in one go. Makes no sense.

 

I really do hate how they've apparently learned nothing from s3 though. Because if it's one thing s3 proved, it's that O/F do not work when they're at odds. So I'm really not looking forward to when this secret comes out again and we see another O/F break-up again but for real this time. Ugh.

[bijoux]

Well, I am watching next week, I'm not gonna lie. We'll see how I'll feel after the break. Whether everything will start to make sense to me or I just lose interest.

[Password]

I think I've become progressively more angry throughout the day. Reading other angry posts is not helping.

Must step away.

[theacostov]

I'm trying to make sense of stupidity to justify why I should continue watching this show. I'm failing. I almost wish they'd kill off felicity so I could definitely be done. I always watch a show too long because I love a character too much. Why am I so weak dammit.

[Nagevs]

I almost wish they'd kill off felicity so I could definitely be done. I always watch a show too long because I love a character too much. 

 

This is where I'm at right now. Two things that the show is hinting at heavily, is that in the near future Felicity and Oliver will be breaking up, and that Felicity is a strong contender to be in the grave soon after. At this point I just have no faith in these writers, have they forgotten the show needs to be exciting and entertaining? There's far too much contrived melodrama going on.

 

I dropped this show after episode 9 last year as I was not interested in the Ray/Felicity romance or the Black Canary trilogy. I only came back because of the episode 20 spoilers.

 

It would take something really significant and unpredictable happening to get me believing in this show again.

[Morrigan2575]

This is where I'm at right now. Two things that the show is hinting at heavily, is that in the near future Felicity and Oliver will be breaking up, and that Felicity is a strong contender to be in the grave soon after

Pretty sure this stupid storyline just eliminated Felicity as THE death.

[jay741982]

Dont put it past these fuckheads. S3 was miserable yet the ratings went up and we do have people who want Oliver being S1 oliver SMH

[Morrigan2575]

Storywise it eliminated Felicity as the death because it dosesn't line up.

[AyChihuahua]

Storywise it eliminated Felicity as the death because it dosesn't line up.

When has a story not lining up EVER stopped them from doing it?  

 

I don't think she's going to die, but I really wish she would.  For me, that would make it an easy drop.  For people who keep watching, that would eliminate a big source of angst.  EBR would be fine.  

[tv echo]

Diana Gabaldon, author of Outlander, managed to keep Jamie & Clare a couple through multiple adventures.  Why can't the Arrow EPs manage to do the same? (throw hands up in frustration)

[lemotomato]

When has a story not lining up EVER stopped them from doing it?

I don't think she's going to die, but I really wish she would. For me, that would make it an easy drop. For people who keep watching, that would eliminate a big source of angst. EBR would be fine.

Sorry, but I don't understand this line of thinking at all. Felicity Smoak is more than just Olicity. I love Olicity, but even if it doesn't work out, I would never want her to get killed off because I love the character first. Edited December 3, 2015 by lemotomato

[theacostov]

Sorry, but I don't understand this line of thinking at all. Felicity Smoak is more than just Olicity. I love Olicity, but even if it doesn't work out, I would never want her to get killed off because I love the character first.

Felicity smoak is more than olicity to me too. Hence why I'm still watching. It's more if she wasn't on the show I could stop cold turkey. Ultimately I don't know if I want her to be with Oliver anymore but I still love her and hope that however she deals with it is in character and something good comes out of it for her.

[tv echo]

Remember when SA said this during his GA panel at the Heroes & Villains FanFest on Nov. 21 when he was talking about the advantages of having a long-running show (versus a movie)?

 

SA: "You have the ability to get real-time audience feedback... As an example, we started shooting our first season, and we shot nine episodes by the time the first episode airs. But then you get to gage the reaction of what the audience thinks and you get to cater your stories to what they either enjoy, or what really really pisses them off... Both of which are the same emotion, by the way. The only thing we don't want is indifference."

 

I think that he and the EPs will learn that fan enjoyment and fan anger are not the same emotion - and that indifference is sometimes better than anger.

Edited December 3, 2015 by tv echo

[EmeraldArcher]

I Never Ever thought I'd abandon this show. I survived S3--surely the best was yet to come and the stupid was over. But nope. I will give it one more episode just because I've invested so much in these characters. They have ruined Oliver and my always cheering him on and empathizing with his struggles. They have ruined Olicity, which was more than just a romantic relationship. It was a great friendship between two people who loved each other deeply and fought to save each other in every way.

They're all just fucking stupid storytellers.

[AyChihuahua]

Sorry, but I don't understand this line of thinking at all. Felicity Smoak is more than just Olicity. I love Olicity, but even if it doesn't work out, I would never want her to get killed off because I love the character first.

Because I don't want to watch the angst, and because I could stop watching.  Felicity's my favorite character on Arrow, but she's not a real person, so it's not like I'd mourn her passing for real.  And EBR would go on to create awesome characters on projects worthy of her talents.  I am tired of Oliver screwing with her, and I'm quite sure there's a lot more misery coming her way.

[NumberCruncher]

This show just makes me tired. Even putting the character assassination aside for Plot! reasons, I'm having a hard time with the sheer stupidity of this drama. He should have told her of the possibility even before he had Barry do his dirty work. Regardless, would anyone who when faced with the choice Oliver was given by the baby mama would keep it from a woman they hoped to make their wife? How would baby mama ever even know if he did tell Felicity? All Oliver had to do was tell Felicity that if she ever told anyone he would lose his son forever and she would take it to the grave. End of story. Relationship drama over. But no, this show continues to have the characters make completely ludicrous decisions that no moron would choose in reality.

Edited December 3, 2015 by NumberCruncher

[Password]

I just can't figure baby mama out. Don't tell anyone, not even your girl? Like, does she want him back? Does she enjoy hurting other people? Is she taking control issues to the next level? What WOMAN WHAT?!

[apinknightmare]

I just can't figure baby mama out. Don't tell anyone, not even your girl? Like, does she want him back? Does she enjoy hurting other people? Is she taking control issues to the next level? What WOMAN WHAT?!

 

I *think* we're supposed to believe she doesn't trust Oliver or anyone in his life, but then she let him go and spend time alone with her son, so...IDK

[Password]

I hope she ends up with some sort of villainous arc where she wants to ruin Oliver's life. It's the only thing that makes sense seeing as, according to her, Oliver is the root of all evil.

[calliope1975]

Felicity smoak is more than olicity to me too. Hence why I'm still watching. It's more if she wasn't on the show I could stop cold turkey. Ultimately I don't know if I want her to be with Oliver anymore but I still love her and hope that however she deals with it is in character and something good comes out of it for her.

 

Felicity is more than Olicity to me as well, but Olicity (when written correctly) is a big draw for me. I liked seeing two people work together in a fun, committed relationship. Last night was the first time I not only didn't like Oliver but no longer sympathized with the protagonist of the show. I'm not sure what to do with those feelings. I'll keep watching for now because I don't love myself, but I am back to my S3 feelings which were neither fun nor happy. I skipped a number of episodes last year, and it looks like I may be headed down that route again. I really wish THIS wasn't the show my brain and heart has decided to latch on to.

 

I Never Ever thought I'd abandon this show. I survived S3--surely the best was yet to come and the stupid was over. 

 

For real. I was riding a high of surviving last season and really enjoying the beginnings of S4. I'm almost impressed at how quickly TIIC can kill my love and respect for their show. Sara last year and now this nonsense. 

[Carrie Ann]

I'm definitely going to give it a few more episodes but I don't know why they would take such a great relationship built over three plus seasons and ruin it with the most contrived crap. Unless that's exactly what they wanted to do but I don't know why they'd go to such trouble to show Felicity as the love of Oliver's life, his link to humanity and peace and happiness and then destroy all of that in a single episode.

 

They're doing this because they think they can come back from it. They fully believe they can and will, and we will all love it, but they don't understand that it is possible to poison and taint a ship, and that no matter what you write for them down the road, you could lose the enthusiasm of your fans if they don't buy into the story you're telling anymore.

 

To be honest, this show lost my faith last season, so this episode was bad for me, very bad, but...basically exactly as bad as the bad episodes last season. And I made it through that shitfest, so I'm still in. Like, I will never trust the writers again, and as good as it ever seems at any given time, I will always assume we're just around the corner from a huge clusterfuck. But...somehow within those parameters, I can still engage with the characters, enjoy the high points, and not let the low points totally kill me. I don't know. It's confusing.

[dtissagirl]

I'm pretty sure that if I weren't invested in the conversation here, this would have been my last episode. And I still legit don't know if I'll be able to watch next week until the episode is in front of my face.

 

In a way you guys are both enablers and support group. Heh.

Edited December 3, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Sunshine]

I am in through at least 413.  I think Donna Smoak coming back confirms that Calculator is Felicity's father.  I can't quit with that on the horizon.  I also have to keep reminding myself that Arrow's recurring theme throughout the seasons (series) is "secrets & lies and their consequences"  which helps to keep my expectations low.

 

Thanks @Password.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Sunshine

[Password]

I am in through at least 413. I think Donna Smoak coming back confirms that Calculator is Felicity's father. I can't quit with that on the horizon. I also have to keep reminding myself that Arrow's recurring theme throughout the season is "secrets & lies and their consequences" which helps to keep my expectations low.

Is that the theme this season?

Seems like a series theme rather than a season theme.

[Sunshine]

Is that the theme this season?

Seems like a series theme rather than a season theme.

I meant seasons plural. Series works too.

[Password]

Oh hehe of course.

[Genki]

It's weird, one of the main purposes of the x-over was to entice viewers to LOT. The do this by undoing the trust that they were building back up with the audience after the crappy season 3. The basically reminded me of every terrible writing and plot decision they ever made. Forget getting me to watch LOT, I'm thinking of dropping The Flash.

[tarotx]

I hope this is the end of the lets still use what we had planned for Laureliver on Olicity. Oliver and felicity aren't the same couple as Laurel and Oliver. They react different and respond to each other different. So it just comes off contrived. 

Edited December 4, 2015 by tarotx

[kismet]

I'm bitter because they managed to make me lose empathy for OQ for the first time in 4 yrs. Between the writers & SA cuddle face, in a few seconds they managed to make me find a hate for the character that I didn't think was possible. I freaking even defended him throughout all of his s3 antics and then they deliver me this crap? I'm frankly pissed.

 

I agree with you @Calliope1975, I don't know what to do with my feelings regarding OQ's characterization. I usually do not stick around for shows where I lose empathy for the main character. I'm hoping they will fix it in 409, but I know they won't. It's not even that he lied to FS. It's that he lied for BabyMama's stupid restrictions and then looked so happy to be out of the clear. It wasn't even a life or death circumstance. And what had BabayMama done in that episode to earn OQ's undying loyalty to a lie at the cost of his relationships? He could have told FS that he is still keeping something from her and that when he works it out, he'll let her know. Explain that its not that he doesn't trust her or want her as a partner - it's just this situation is out of his control (which it is to a certain degree if you listen to BM's ultimatums as absolutes). I prefer honesty in relationships, but sometimes lies or lies by omission are needed. But no one should be that relieved that they cuddle up someone's chest and appear as if nothing bad is happening. Guilt, remorse, hesitation cross people's face. I've kept secrets from loved ones and I can't think of one time I was ever that relieved in their presence. Heck, when I'm stressed I've been known to unwillingly/unconsciously smile. It's a nervous tick. That is not what was going on in that Cuddle. That was a smile of happiness & contentment, not the emotions to be attached with a lie of this magnitude.

 

And that is why I am so mad at what they did to OQ. OQ makes mistakes, but he is never cheerful or gleeful afterwards. It was such a callback to the douche he was as Ollie, it was alarming. However, even Ollie I could excuse as a result of bad parenting & other stuff. Not the case with s4 OQ, he has had 3+ years post-island & 5 years of HELL to understand that secret & lies carry consequences. He should know better than to make that facial expression. He should also know better than to lie, but it was more his reaction to getting away with it that bothered me the most.

 

I've also realized that I think the reason the writers hate it when we call them out on regression is because it is reflective of their writing. When they need an easy out, they dumb OQ down & make him a jerk. It shows a complete lack of originality & creativity on their part. I'm also pissed that MG brought up the Vertigo killing. That was not regression, that was choosing to save the life of a loved one. There was no choice to make, it was either kill or watch FS be killed - that is a special circumstance. And I'm sure he still felt guilty afterwards. It was not him choosing to kill without cause or need. And it was 2 years ago, people change in 2 years - not only that but they have stressed to us over the past 2 years that OQ has become a new & different man, yet he still can only manage to lie to FS & then be happy he got away with it. I sometimes think its the writers that have difficulty letting go of their plans from years ago & really its them regressing. That all of this character regressions & OOC moments are just them puttering out. No more juice left in the creativity engine. Which is just sad.

[bijoux]

In the end it really is the happy cuddling that's the worst of it. Oliver lying in and of itself certainly wouldn't be good but it could be understandable since he's had a lot happen and unhappen to him in a day or two. All it needed was a different reaction during the cuddle. It could have even started with a smile but then switched to conflicted or sad. Does someone here send asks to SA either via Twitter or Facebook? I really would like to know why he chose to play the scene that way.

[Password]

It's because of how reminiscent it was to the flashback with Laurel. It makes me sick to compare the two but it's essentially the same thing: big problem happens, he hides the truth and still gets to cuddle with his girl after having it "fixed".

He made Felicity look like a chump and I've never disliked Oliver as much as then.

[Pyramid]

In the end it really is the happy cuddling that's the worst of it. Oliver lying in and of itself certainly wouldn't be good but it could be understandable since he's had a lot happen and unhappen to him in a day or two. All it needed was a different reaction during the cuddle. It could have even started with a smile but then switched to conflicted or sad. Does someone here send asks to SA either via Twitter or Facebook? I really would like to know why he chose to play the scene that way.

 

I disagree. I think the worst of it is the writing. This lot are so bereft of ideas that ... in fact it's not ideas they don't have, it's a back bone. Collective bravery to trust that their audience will keep watching a show with that most shocking of things ... a happy couple.

[bijoux]

It's because of how reminiscent it was to the flashback with Laurel. It makes me sick to compare the two but it's essentially the same thing: big problem happens, he hides the truth and still gets to cuddle with his girl after having it "fixed".

He made Felicity look like a chump and I've never disliked Oliver as much as then.

I honestly wouldn't have liked the scene even without the connection to that flashback. The parallels are only an additional layer of suck. Even then I don't remeber Ollie being happy. I think Laurel mentioned his brooding or something. Even though he looked like a pathetic kicked puppy. That was while the problem still existed. The hug with Moira came after the fix. And that scene was completely different from this one. Ollie simultaneously looked sad, relieved and shocked. I'm not comparing the hugs but Oliver's emotional beats in these situations to be clear. That one after the 'miscarriage' was better.

[Pyramid]

Oh God. You know there's going to be a scene where Felicity follows Oliver to find out where he's been sneaking off to, and then seems him going into the house of ANOTHER WOMAN. Cue every imaginable cliché. What a lot of shit.

Oh and the Hawk people were ridiculous.