Target Practice: Poisoned Arrow (The Bitterness Thread)

[FAU]

 

If Roy can be trusted, then Team Arrow needs Laurel even less.

 

Not surprised there, the writers managed to usurp her role in practically every aspect even if it's unintentional.

[writersblock51]

Yeah, the enthusiasm for Laurel becoming BC isn't anything I share.  I'm so-so on Roy's expanded involvement, but since he would be tied to Thea's return (I hope?) with Malcolm, I'm willing to see how it plays out.  I think Roy will have plenty to still be angry at Oliver with, too. 

 

And this:

 

if Roy can be trusted, then Team Arrow needs Laurel even less.

Absolutely.

 

If I am still watching the show in the fall, it won't be Live.  At this point, I'm not planning on watching unless stuff comes out during the summer that pulls me back in: Sara coming back as BC, Quentin not dying, Oliver and Felicity acknowledging there's something "there" but not rushing into it, Felicity's parentage NOT beiing tied to Island!Hong Kong!Oliver and Laurel absolutely NOT being BC (but Manhunter would be fine).

 

 

Oliver having a Major Moment with yet a third woman

 

My money is on Waller.  Which is vomit inducing for me.

Edited June 2, 2014 by writersblock51

[Password]

Oliver was certainly busy with women on that "island". I am convinced something will happen with he and The Wall.

[Morrigan2575]

Nah, I don't think Oliver and Waller will have a thing.  My guess is that Oliver will meet someone new in Hong Kong and Waller will do something that gets her killed...way more manpain that way.

Edited June 2, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[SonofaBiscuit]

I've been rewatching season 1 of Arrow so that I can read people's comments in the rewatch threads.  I watched the first season when it aired on TV, but I remember that I didn't pay much attention at the time...I would have it on while on the computer or whatever.  There were two reasons that I stuck with the show:  SA's abs/Sally the Salmon Ladder and Diggle.  I liked Felicity but I didn't get too attached because at that time, I had read that Laurel was destined to become Black Canary and the love interest.  I remember being pretty indifferent to Laurel in the first season and upon rewatch, I know why.  She's just uber bitchy to everyone, sometimes for no reason at all. 

 

I understand that she was very hurt by what Oliver did to her, but I just thought it was too much when she basically told him she wished he was still dead (something about rotting in hell a lot longer).  She was awful to Oliver and gave dirty looks to her friend and client when they bumped into Oliver at the courthouse.  He was there having himself declared undead, not stalking her!  She was terrible to her father when he tried to put police protection on her.  She was kind of snippy with Johanna when Johanna caught her trolling for Oliver stories online.  When Tommy is waiting on a bench outside of her workplace, she says with a snotty tone, "What are you doing here?"  I think that 80% of what Laurel says in those first three episodes comes off with such a snotty arrogant tone.  I can see why people say that playing a bitch is in her wheelhouse.  Unfortunately, this was not the way to make me love this character right off the bat.  Epic fail, show.   

[FurryFury]

I understand that she was very hurt by what Oliver did to her, but I just thought it was too much when she basically told him she wished he was still dead (something about rotting in hell a lot longer).

 

I actually thought it made a lot of sense and was a completely realistic reaction (but then, I was never bothered by Catelyn Stark saying "It should have been you" in A Song Of Ice And Fire, so maybe that's me). It was actually Laurel reversing that stance and apologizing to Oliver later in the pilot that screamed wrong to me, and made me dislike Laurel. It was just too fast for a realistic change of attitude.

[FAU]

 

I've been rewatching season 1 of Arrow so that I can read people's comments in the rewatch threads.  I watched the first season when it aired on TV, but I remember that I didn't pay much attention at the time...I would have it on while on the computer or whatever.  There were two reasons that I stuck with the show:  SA's abs/Sally the Salmon Ladder and Diggle.  I liked Felicity but I didn't get too attached because at that time, I had read that Laurel was destined to become Black Canary and the love interest.  I remember being pretty indifferent to Laurel in the first season and upon rewatch, I know why.  She's just uber bitchy to everyone, sometimes for no reason at all.

 

I understand that she was very hurt by what Oliver did to her, but I just thought it was too much when she basically told him she wished he was still dead (something about rotting in hell a lot longer).  She was awful to Oliver and gave dirty looks to her friend and client when they bumped into Oliver at the courthouse.  He was there having himself declared undead, not stalking her!  She was terrible to her father when he tried to put police protection on her.  She was kind of snippy with Johanna when Johanna caught her trolling for Oliver stories online.  When Tommy is waiting on a bench outside of her workplace, she says with a snotty tone, "What are you doing here?"  I think that 80% of what Laurel says in those first three episodes comes off with such a snotty arrogant tone.  I can see why people say that playing a bitch is in her wheelhouse.  Unfortunately, this was not the way to make me love this character right off the bat.  Epic fail, show.

 

Yikes, I must've tuned her character out last season because it was much easier but I do remember being annoyed by her character and the scenes she was in, especially her 'fight' scenes were poorly done compared to other characters' fight scenes.

[statsgirl]

While the writing for Laurel wasn't great in the early episodes, I still think they could have been saved if KC had played the layers beneath the speech rather than the surface. For example, if she had told Quentin that putting a police tail on her didn't work when she first discovered boys and it wasn't going to work now with teasing and a shared remembrance of past parent/child battles rather than nastily, it would have said something about their relationship and their affection for each other. As it was, it came off like a brat.

 

Nah, I don't think Oliver and Waller will have a thing.  My guess is that Oliver will meet someone new in Hong Kong and Waller will do something that gets her killed...way more manpain that way.

I think I'd like that better than being with Waller, although the way he said "Amanda" suggests more intimacy than he'd have with someone who is just pulling his strings. Either way, Waller or someone new that he cares about and loses, they both work to make him more emotionally walled in. I'm looking forward to see how they make Oliver increasingly PTSD in the flashbacks till we get the Oliver from the pilot, while in the present he becomes more healed.

[fantique]

 

Not surprised there, the writers managed to usurp her role in practically every aspect even if it's unintentional.

That is one thing I am bitter about. Because they are acting like there was this particular gap that only Laurel can fill but then show pretty much anyone can, they make her useless. It was oh so freaking dumb to act as if things were set in stone. I mean Arrow is about Olilver before/as he becomes a hero. Which allows for much liberty with the story telling and they established themselves as different from the comics. Therefore, commenting (I mean the TPTB + actors) on what happens in those is useless unless they are sure it will be incorporated. I am so freaking sick of shows saying to us 'Oh this character is awesome. He/she is perfect and can do no wrong' and then show them being an inconsistent twat that make the most humanly reprehensible acts, which are then excused using a drug/alcohol/mental problem. Don't tell me in S1 that Laurel is going to be BC and then have her show every side but a heroic one. And if they realised for whatever reason that this Laurel can not become BC, then let it go completely. Don't go and make another character BC and then take it away from them. It just sends the message that the only way for Laurel to be seen as "good", we need to show other characters to be worse than her. In retrospect, I can imagine that the bad character choices of Sara and Oliver were an attempt to cause more sympathetic feelings towards Laurel. Because otherwise the characters' evolution before that had been on point.

The fact that they have to twist themselves into a pretzel to make Laurel likeable should tell them they did something wrong.

I actually always wonder why Laurel/KC fans are not the biggest advocates for Laurel changing and not being BC (yet at least). I mean so far the convolution is what made her an inconsistent character. When a character I like is messed up, I want the writers to do whatever it takes to fix them. Same thing if an actor is playing a character that is getting ridiculous. You can only like Laurel for stand alone moments because when you look at the road behind, you just get confused/annoyed. So much shit she got is the fault of other people, I should be feeling sorry for her and yet she just irritates me. I was so wanting to like her.

Laurel would be So.Freaking.Cool as a powerful Lawyer aiding and aided by Team Arrow. She would be so much stronger if she was Oliver's friend and stopped the creepy sister swapping cycle. Honestly, she was a character with potential and they ruined it because they are under the delusion we enjoy convoluted romance plots and crappy triangles of doom. Bitter about triangles. I don't care how many times I say it. They. Fucking. Suck.

Bitter about weird romances. Please show, avoid the trainwreck that would Oliver/Waller. Please no more intro of paramours who will die tragically. Can't he just have friends? You would think training with the Bratva will bring enough trauma. Him becoming the killer he was once he got back to Starling is so interesting. The burden on his psyche before he just became desensitised to death is a story I want to see.

[Sakura12]

The only defense KC fans have is her name is Dinah Laurel. Ignoring the fact that she has nothing else that makes her that character. Yes, they gave her she can't cook and wore fishnets once as hints. Probably the least important, interesting and practical traits of the character. 

 

They gave Sara a hint about being the Canary by having her have a pet black canary that only she liked. Which in turn gave her a reason to choose the name of random bird. What realistic reason would Laurel have for choosing that name? None at all. Was she just going to pull that name out of her ass? Was she going to name herself after a pet her younger sister had, that she hated? That doesn't seem like a good way to choose a hero name. So Sara's hint pointed her more towards the Black Canary before she even showed up. Then they had Sara see or hallucinate a Canary right before she was taken onto the Amazo. That shows me that the Canary name is Sara's and Sara's alone. 

 

People who don't read the comics don't know or care about any of that anyway. On tv we go by what is shown on screen and nothing we've seen on screen points to Laurel becoming the BC or any kind of super hero. Nothing I've seen about the Laurel character makes me believe she'll want to put on skin tight leather and fight crime in the streets. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by Sakura12

[Password]

Laurel's motivation for becoming BC will be interesting. At the moment she's probably worrying about her dad and not about fighting crime. I don't see how she will come to the conclusion that she should become a vigilante or hero, so I'll be interested to know how the writers go about it. Her journey is so slow it's stagnant. The story is about Oliver, not Laurel so I'm not interested in her journey. If Laurel went dark I would enjoy that. Maybe something else terrible will happen and that will happen. Her interactions with Helena seemed too blatant for them not to make her go dark eventually.

[FAU]

 

Maybe something else terrible will happen and that will happen.

 

That always seems to happen when Laurel is involved in some way.

[Chairman Meow]

Well, that "review" was ...something...

 

Late comment ftw!  As soon as the reviewer put the island scenes on the pro side, I backed out.  The island scenes have been my least favorite part (aside from Laurel) of both seasons so far. 

[catrox14]

Maybe something else terrible will happen and that will happen.

 

That always seems to happen when Laurel is involved in some way.

Maybe Laurel can become The Ruiner instead of the Black Canary.... Edited June 3, 2014 by Lisin

[FAU]

Late comment ftw!  As soon as the reviewer put the island scenes on the pro side, I backed out.  The island scenes have been my least favorite part (aside from Laurel) of both seasons so far. 

 

Exactly, the island scenes stopper being necessary/interesting a while ago.  We don't even need it anymore at this point, we can pretty much fill in the blank.

[FurryFury]

I loved the island scenes until the second half of this season. I loved Slade (well, until they've ruined him with Mirakuru and poor motivation), Shado and Sara, plus the whole mystery theme worked very well, I thought. I also never thought that the show should be all Team Arrow, all the time (I like them, but they aren't anywhere near my favorite TV ensembles), so maybe that helped. However, after hiatus, it was hard to care about the Amazo stuff and the survivors and Oliver/Sara plan, it just felt like filler. However, I think it was just a symptom of the generally awful writing during that time period.

 

Also, I'm really unsure about the show continuing with the flashbacks after ditching the island. The only familiar character that's going to be present there is Waller, and while they'll probably add some other recurrers, there's a big fat chance it's just not going to work anymore. Continuous flashbacks, in general, don't work well on TV after a certain point. Lost was smart in changing them into flash-forwards after season 3.

Edited June 3, 2014 by FurryFury

[dtissagirl]

I never liked the island scenes much, but I thought the main problem with the island in S2 was that we already knew most of what was gonna happen because either Oliver or Sarah had already mentioned it, in present time, in a previous episode. The Promise was a big disappointment for me because TPTB hyped the episode up to the max, and then the audience didn't learn anything new during the flashbacks... it was all stuff already discussed.

Edited June 3, 2014 by dancingnancy

[FAU]

 

Also, I'm really unsure about the show continuing with the flashbacks after ditching the island. The only familiar character that's going to be present there is Waller, and while they'll probably add some other recurrers, there's a big fat chance it's just not going to work anymore. Continuous flashbacks, in general, don't work well on TV after a certain point. Lost was smart in changing them into flash-forwards after season 3.

 

Exactly the problem and why there's no need for anymore flashbacks.  All the interesting characters are already gone in the flashbacks, we already know what happens already.

 

As you said, in Lost it was a game changer to actually change things up.

[Sakura12]

I thought. I also never thought that the show should be all Team Arrow, all the time (I like them, but they aren't anywhere near my favorite TV ensembles), so maybe that helped. However, after hiatus, it was hard to care about the Amazo stuff and the survivors and Oliver/Sara plan, it just felt like filler. However, I think it was just a symptom of the generally awful writing during that time period.

 

I'm with you on that, the Arrow Trio is not even in my top 5 favorite tv ensembles. I like all three of them and I like seeing them together, but they are in no way the entire show for me. Now that I think about I liked last seasons Arrow Trio better than this seasons, mostly because Olicity was not the main focus. I liked seeing some new people interact with them, I wish there was more of that. I would've have liked to see more of Oliver and Diggle talking, Sara and Felicity talking, seen Diggle and Roy assist Oliver on missions, seen more of Diggle, Sara and Oliver shirtless training sessions and maybe them teaching Felicity some moves. Even seen Oliver and Sara training Roy in archery. Those are Team Arrow scenes I wanted to see. Which brings me to the fact that Team Arrow is barely an ensemble because they don't interact with each other enough about the plot of the show. When they do talk it's most about Oliver's manpain or Olicity. 

 

Next season doesn't look at all appealing to me. With Sara gone (meaning the Sara I actually liked being gone, not whatever they replaced her with in the finale), that leaves my three least favorite characters getting more screentime, Laurel, Roy and Waller. Not interested in that at all.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

I was hoping Slade's defeat would bring an end to the flashbacks but it looks like they're just going to switch locations. And while some people might be interested, I don't really care how Oliver gets back to that stupid island. Enough with the flashbacks already.

[FurryFury]

I'm with you on that, the Arrow Trio is not even in my top 5 favorite tv ensembles. I like all three of them and I like seeing them together, but they are in no way the entire show for me. Now that I think about I liked last seasons Arrow Trio better than this seasons, mostly because Olicity was not the main focus. I liked seeing some new people interact with them, I wish there was more of that. I would've have liked to see more of Oliver and Diggle talking, Sara and Felicity talking, seen Diggle and Roy assist Oliver on missions, seen more of Diggle, Sara and Oliver shirtless training sessions and maybe them teaching Felicity some moves. Even seen Oliver and Sara training Roy in archery. Those are Team Arrow scenes I wanted to see. Which brings me to the fact that Team Arrow is barely an ensemble because they don't interact with each other enough about the plot of the show. When they do talk it's most about Oliver's manpain or Olicity.

 

Yeah, it does feel like Olicity is 80% of Team Arrow scenes nowadays, with different levels of prominence. And the problem is that instead of trying to create a layered and nuanced relationship between them, the writers are just going for rather clichéd ship tease (makes sense, it's much easier to write - they did turn something I had expected to be great, Oliver/Slade conflict, into something that didn't make much sense, much less nuance). But then, seeing as 99% of the fanbase don't see any problems with that, I doubt that's going to change. I predict approx. 2 women per season thrown at Oliver to prolong an Olicity hook-up, while she dutifully waits and makes eyes at him. And when her patience comes to a close and she finally finds a seemingly perfect guy without any manpain who isn't afraid of making a move, Oliver will suddenly realize how much she means to him and swoop in, so that the new guy will be forgotten in a second.

Edited June 3, 2014 by FurryFury

[Password]

I predict approx. 2 women per season thrown at Oliver to prolong an Olicity hook-up, while she dutifully waits and makes eyes at him. And when her patience comes to a close and she finally finds a seemingly perfect guy without any manpain who isn't afraid of making a move, Oliver will suddenly realize how much she means to him and swoop in, so that the new guy will be forgotten in a second.

 

You know pre episode 10 I would've totally disagreed with this statement and said that Felicity isn't just waiting for Oliver to come around. But now I'm not entirely sure the writers see Felicity in this way. I would like to take comfort in what EBR said that this is Oliver's issue not hers. I hope she's right and Felicity won't just be that girl that waits for that guy to finally see her as more. I thought if anything that ILY and beach scene showed Felicity something behind Oliver's facade that he's held onto with both hands. That maybe there is a little more. We shall see how it goes.

[statsgirl]

EBR did say that while Felicity likes Oliver, she knows he's not the only guy in the world so hopefully the show will let her have a new interest and not go all schmoopy.

[Password]

She's smart. I don't think she'd make the first move even if the signs were there because this is Oliver. It'll be interesting to watch. So long as they don't sideline Diggle. Then Olicity would just frustrate me.

[statsgirl]

I agree. It is essential that they don't sideline Diggle. Anything Olicity has to be a sidestory.

[wonderwall]

Yeah, it does feel like Olicity is 80% of Team Arrow scenes nowadays

 

I think that the reason for this is because the writers wanted to build Olicity up for the finale in order to make that fakeout almost believable. And I think that they did a great job with the buildup, because I was legit yelling at my TV screen for 5 minutes in pure joy only to realize it was just a ruse... Then I proceeded to yell at my TV in anger (I've never had this reaction when it came to TV shows before). Also Diggle's lack of scenes could also be a result of him being on another show? IDK. The only thing I do know, is that these scenes aren't there only for being shipbait. 

 

I feel like they are creating a nuanced relationship between Oliver and Felicity which is why people have resonated with them quite well. On the surface you see something people see all the time, and that's two people being attracted to one another but holding themselves back for whatever reason. But it goes much deeper than that. 

 

I'm going to quote BkWurm1 because she honestly puts it perfectly:

 

Oliver and Felicity IMO share big goals and broad yet similar moral agendas (my attempt at a catch all phrase that covers similar sets of priorities and how far and how much they are willing to risk for what they believe in) and it is these big and usually deep similarities that makes them IMO compatible when on first glance they are vey different kind of people.

And it is all the differences that makes watching them together so much fun.  Chipper vs dour, can't stop talking vs barely says anything, They balance each other out.  Fearless Oliver vs terrified Felicity when it comes to physical feats but when it comes to emotional strength, its Felicity that Oliver leans on.  They both have their fears of intimacy and abandonment.  They both need to do something bigger than just carving out a normal life and yet Felicity brings a kind of normalcy that I think Oliver craves.

 

I feel like the writers have developed a couple who have faults as individuals, but their faults complement one another's, thus making them stronger as individuals when they are together. Now IMO I feel like Oliver and Felicity should grow as individuals first before they get into a relationship, but I have to admit, their relationship is one of the most gorgeous ones I've seen in a while. While a lot of the TV show couples today have relationships based on lust and sex, Oliver and Felicity's relationship is based on trust, friendship, loyalty, and honesty. This is such a refreshing thing to see in TV, which is another reason why people are drawn to this relationship. Like Mark Guggenheim said, people want them together because their relationship is based on love not lust (or something to that extent). But yeah, while Olicity may be there to be dangled as shipbait sometimes, it doesn't mean that their relationship isn't nuanced or deep. In fact, I feel like there are so many layers between them that we have yet to explore, hopefully the writers get on that for season 3. 

 

I also hope that the writers don't automatically give more screentime to Laurel/Roy or anyone else just because Sara is gone. If anything, the extra screentime should go to Team Arrow and their interactions with outsiders. 

Edited June 4, 2014 by wonderwall

[FurryFury]

I feel like they are creating a nuanced relationship between Oliver and Felicity which is why people have resonated with them quite well

Well, stuff like Damon/Elena or, hell, Edward/Bella has also resonated with a lot of people. Sorry, but this kind of argument dosn't work. Oliver/Felicity isn't that bad, of course, but I wouldn't call that a well-written romance, not by a long shot. And I wasn't prejusticed from the start of anything, I kinda liked them until they just stopped making sense. I actually had to fast forward through the love confession bit in the finale and breathed a sign of relief after it turned out to be fake, because pnly a few days before Oliver was asking Sara to move in with him. Bad writing, plain and simple.

[tv echo]

I've read a lot of great fan suggestions on how the show could be improved. How about listing ideas on how the show could be made worse?  And then seeing how many of these ideas are actually implemented by the EPs in their drive to make season 3 the most hated season of Arrow ever.  I'll start:

 

1.  Julie Plec is added as another EP on the show, and she immediately sets up a love triangle involving Oliver, Laurel and Felicity.

 

2.  In the opening scene of season 3, episode 1 (five months later), a mysterious blonde in black leather and mask saves a woman from a would-be rapist, using her awesome martial arts skills.  She then flips away, lifts her mask and wig - and it's Laurel!

 

3.  In a flashback, Oliver hooks up with Waller.

Edited June 4, 2014 by tv echo

[Sakura12]

The actors have chemistry that has nothing to do with the writers. I also agree that it's not a well written romance. It reminds me so much of Chloe and Clark on Smallville. I know Felicity is smart but we don't see her dating anyone else, all we see her do is pine after Oliver. The only reason Barry was introduced was to set up his show, that wasn't for Felicity's storyline. So having one character have their whole life revolve around the guy that will sleep with every other woman that shows up on the show except for her is not a romance that interests me. 

 

Everyone else has even had exes or other crushes in Barry's case. Diggle dated his brother's widow and now back with his ex wife. Sara dated Nyssa before she got with Oliver and Oliver was with Helena, McKenna Laurel and Sara. Felicity is practically a nun. 

 

People have said that Sara's not a good match for Oliver because she needs him to be her light. Isn't that same with Felicity? Oliver needs her to be his light. So they are not even ground either. What about what Felicity needs? I'd rather her date a good guy that's not so messed up. Someone that will be there for her as much as she is there for him. So again the actors have chemistry, but for me their characters are a terrible match. So far it looks like Oliver will date about 20 women before he's like "I'm ready now, Felicity, lets have a go at this dating thing" while Felicity just sat around single and waited for him. 

 

I want Felicity to tell him. "Either you want to be with me or you don't. I'm not going to wait around forever. I'll be here for you for our work both in the office and out of it. But I'm going to get on with my life"

Edited June 4, 2014 by Sakura12

[FAU]

I've read a lot of great fan suggestions on how the show could be improved. How about listing ideas on how the show could be made worse?  And then seeing how many of these ideas are actually implemented by the EPs in their drive to make season 3 the most hated season of Arrow ever.  I'll start:

 

1.  Julie Plec is added as another EP on the show, and she immediately sets up a love triangle involving Oliver, Laurel and Felicity.

 

2.  In the opening scene of season 3, episode 1 (five months later), a mysterious blonde in black leather and mask saves a woman from a would-be rapist, using her awesome martial arts skills.  She then flips away, lifts her mask and wig - and it's Laurel!

 

3.  In a flashback, Oliver hooks up with Waller.

 

The sad thing is (except for Julie Plec), these things might actually happen.

[writersblock51]

I don't know much about Julie Plec but I've gotten the gist from other boards that she'd be a detriment to any show she comes to.  And she's a CW person.

 

So I can see all three of those things being possibilities.

[FAU]

I don't know much about Julie Plec but I've gotten the gist from other boards that she'd be a detriment to any show she comes to.  And she's a CW person.

 

So I can see all three of those things being possibilities.

 

All you need to know is that she sucks at being a showrunner and her idea of romance is disgusting.

[MsSchadenfreude]

The whole darkness/lightness arguments regarding any of the romantic relationships on the show just makes me roll my eyes because it's ridiculous.  Oliver is not Sara's light, Felicity is not his, Thea isn't Roy's etc. No one is going to overcome their "darkness" because of some other character's "lightness'.  It doesn't work that way.  Sure being around people that are not wallowing in misery and angst all the time may give you hope that life won't always suck, but ultimately the only way out of the darkness (man,I really hate that term) is you have to do it for yourself. I'm just waiting for the day these writers starting talking about how one character "saved" another because they were so pure, good or innocent. Blech!  I'll  need lots of tequila to get through that type of nonsense.

[catrox14]

 

Well, stuff like Damon/Elena or, hell, Edward/Bella has also resonated with a lot of people. Sorry, but this kind of argument dosn't work. Oliver/Felicity isn't that bad, of course, but I wouldn't call that a well-written romance, not by a long shot.

 

For my money, I'll take the slow burn, UST, build to a healthy, loving relationship as is seen with Olicity vs the gross, inappropriate, rapey, stalker, abusive behavior as is seen in Twilight. (I can't speak to VD because I don't watch that). 

[quarks]

because pnly a few days before Oliver was asking Sara to move in with him.

 

 

First, in rewatching the show, I realized there's some precedent for this in the first season.

 

Sometime around March 20, after McKenna was injured, Oliver offers to move out to Coast City with her - not just visit regularly, although that's implied as another possibility. At this point, McKenna and Oliver have just started sleeping together, although they were friends pre-island. Oliver is offering a much larger committment to McKenna: he's offering to leave his entire current life to be with her: his city, his job, his whole "you have failed this city!" bit (although McKenna doesn't know this last one.) That's huge. But by somewhere around April 24, Oliver is back to risking his partnership with Diggle to save Laurel; by May 1 Oliver is admitting that he's still in love with Laurel. Granted, it's a slightly longer time period, but the precedent is there.

 

Second, Oliver is and isn't asking Sara to move in with him. When she asks, he immediately hesitates, and doesn't say yes. In the context of the overall conversation, he's pointing out, correctly, that neither of them have a place of their own right now - he's apparently sleeping at the Foundry, she's staying with Laurel - and as a result, the two of them haven't even been alone together for weeks, even though they've only been dating for about two and a half months together. It's more of a "let's find a place where we can be alone that isn't a hotel," as well as a "we both really need to find a place to live," than a "let's move in together," conversation, thus the hesitation. And even asking Sara to move in with him is much less of a commitment than what he was offering McKenna last season.

 

So I didn't have a problem with Oliver's confession to Felicity.  As I've noted before, I think the show made it pretty clear, both explicitly in the script, and less explicitly in the blocking and the camera shots, that Oliver and Sara weren't in love, and was trying to show - less successfully, in my opinion, because the show was also trying to hide this so they could end the season on a big surprise - that Oliver did fall in love with Felicity but decided he couldn't be with her For Reasons (except for giving her the chance to date a guy in a coma because she might be happier with that, stupid ones, show, please have Oliver figure out that it's not that being with him puts women in danger, it's that Oliver is just terrible at relationships) and so turned to Sara instead.  A fairly common romance trope, though one that I hope the show doesn't repeat in the third season, since we've now seen it twice already. 

 

I'd like to see Felicity realize she needs some sort of social life just to handle the stress. I don't know that the show needs to focus on it, but a side comment here and there would be nice.

[KirkB]

We're making the show worse, huh? Okay, I'll play.

 

1) Baby Diggle makes John reconsider his life choices. He decides working with Oliver is not worth risking his growing family and leaves.

2) Barry wakes up from his coma, rushes to Starling and literally sweeps Felicity off her feet, carrying her back to Central City (and off Arrow) so she can take part in a love triangle there with him and Iris.

3) Laurel, who was gone for five or six months, suddenly reappears with exceptional martial arts skills and a supersonic scream. No explanation is given. She moves into the new Arrowcave and starts working with Oliver.

 

And with that I've made myself somewhat ill and must stop now.

[quarks]

2.  In the opening scene of season 3, episode 1, a mysterious blonde in black leather and mask saves a woman from a would-be rapist, using her awesome martial arts skills.  She then flips away, lifts her mask - and it's Laurel!

 

 

I'm actually expecting this, or something like this. The show has established that Laurel has some fighting/martial arts skills - ok, granted, it's only three or four scenes in the entire show, but work with me here - and I suspect that the showrunners will figure it's easier just to introduce Laurel as an established hero rather than trying to show us more of this "journey." If the action scene is cool enough, it might even sorta work. Maybe?

[catrox14]

 

I actually had to fast forward through the love confession bit in the finale and breathed a sign of relief after it turned out to be fake, because pnly a few days before Oliver was asking Sara to move in with him. Bad writing, plain and simple.

 

I think it's believable that Oliver asked Sara to move in because it was a practical choice as much as a love choice. Aside from that though, the circumstances changed dramatically after Sara left. Slade murdered Moira in front of Oliver and was threatening to kill the person he loves the most. IMO that brought into sharp relief for Oliver what matters to him most and he realized that Felicity is one of those things. It worked for me.

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

3) Laurel, who was gone for five or six months, suddenly reappears with exceptional martial arts skills and a supersonic scream. No explanation is given. She moves into the new Arrowcave and starts working with Oliver.

 

If this actually happens I will point at the television and laugh hysterically and then promptly turn off the television, but first I will point and laugh. :)

Edited June 4, 2014 by MsSchadenfreude

[dtissagirl]

I want Felicity to tell him. "Either you want to be with me or you don't. I'm not going to wait around forever. I'll be here for you for our work both in the office and out of it. But I'm going to get on with my life"

 

Anything that would give Felicity a life outside of Oliver would be A+ for me, but this would be my favorite scenario. I'd love it if they gave Felicity a romantic relationship in S3, but I'm afraid if they do it, it'll just be so they can show Oliver being jealous, or to later reveal that her boyfriend is secretly evil.

[FAU]

I'm actually expecting this, or something like this. The show has established that Laurel has some fighting/martial arts skills - ok, granted, it's only three or four scenes in the entire show, but work with me here - and I suspect that the showrunners will figure it's easier just to introduce Laurel as an established hero rather than trying to show us more of this "journey." If the action scene is cool enough, it might even sorta work. Maybe?

 

It's like what I predicted after they failed with her 'journey', they'll just try and force it on her.

[statsgirl]

Having Laurel suddenly show up as the Black Canary is better than showing her "journey" but did Sara leave all her stuff to Laurel, not just the jacket?  OR maybe since Laurel is so good at googling, she found the Superhero Costume Emporium, except with real fishnet stockings instead of just patterns on the leather pants.

 

 

show, please have Oliver figure out that it's not that being with him puts women in danger, it's that Oliver is just terrible at relationships

That made me laugh out loud.  The only woman who's been in danger because she's been in a relationship with him was McKenna, and than it wasn't her relationship with him as it was that she was a cop trying to catch Oliver's psycho ex-girlfriend. Maybe Sara by getting on the Queen's Gambit. But beyond that, it's either because they accidentally got in the way (Laurel, Walter, Tommy, Roy, Diggle) or were related to him (Thea, Moira) or deliberately put themselves in the firing line (Diggle, Felicity) to help him.

 

It's a really stupid reason, but it did give him permission to have sex with Isabel whenever he wanted to.

 

 

Second, Oliver is and isn't asking Sara to move in with him. When she asks, he immediately hesitates, and doesn't say yes. In the context of the overall conversation, he's pointing out, correctly, that neither of them have a place of their own right now - he's apparently sleeping at the Foundry, she's staying with Laurel - and as a result, the two of them haven't even been alone together for weeks, even though they've only been dating for about two and a half months together. It's more of a "let's find a place where we can be alone that isn't a hotel," as well as a "we both really need to find a place to live," than a "let's move in together," conversation, thus the hesitation.

That's how I saw it. The hesitation was "Wait, she thinks I'm asking her to move in with me?!?!?!  I just wanted to find a place where we didn't have to worry about people walking in on us."

 

 

or to later reveal that her boyfriend is secretly evil.

On this show?  Totally that.  It's what Joss Whedon would do.

 

I think that after the conversation on the island, Felicity is going to give up on a relationship with Oliver. Bring on the evil antagonist!

Edited June 4, 2014 by statsgirl

[dtissagirl]

I think that after the conversation on the island, Felicity is going to give up on a relationship with Oliver. Bring on the evil antagonist!

 

I love that Tumblr meme that Nightwing should come to Starling and charm the pants off Felicity. It doesn't even have to be Dick Grayson exactly, but if Felicity got a BF, and then Team Arrow suspected he was evil only to turn out he's actually a fellow vigilante? I'd like that.

[Sakura12]

They showed us that Laurel has very little training. Not nearly enough to take on actual highly skilled and trained fighters. 

 

If she was highly trained she should never have been damseled and kidnapped as many time as she was. 

[FAU]

 

Having Laurel suddenly show up as the Black Canary is better than showing her "journey" but did Sara leave all her stuff to Laurel, not just the jacket?  OR maybe since Laurel is so good at googling, she found the Superhero Costume Emporium, except with real fishnet stockings instead of just patterns on the leather pants.

 

I don't think it will, it'll still be Laurel doing Laurel stuff while dressing up in a Halloween costume plus more screentime from the looks of things.

[Sakura12]

I'm really wondering if they'll have Laurel show up as Prostitute Canary because that's what the comics have her dressed like. 

 

I guess the only good thing to come out of this is the stunt double should get paid more for doing more work. I watched the Laurel pilot fight scene, which was a rich guy that owned another club by the way. Not an body guard or anything. I fail to see how beating up a spoiled rich guy with no training whatsoever makes her a badass. Then they didn't even show KC's face when she punched him in the ribs, that shows me that could most likely been a stunt double for that tiny scene.

 

Then her other "badass" scene was her using a shotgun not her amazing fighting skills. In season 2 we saw her (to me at least) get in a lucky punch because the thugs didn't expect someone to be stupid enough to fight back against a bunch of them without having any training. She immediately got taken hostage after her one punch every single time we saw her "try" that move. 

 

If those are Laurel's skills, what a great street fighting super hero she's going to make. :rolleyes:

[wonderwall]

 I also agree that it's not a well written romance. 

 

Hmm I've actually thought a lot about this because I legit have nothing else to do :p But maybe the reason why it's not a well written romance is because the writers didn't intend on Oliver/Felicity to actually become a romance. They were being written as partners/friends instead of two people who could actually be with each other. The only time they were written as a possible romantic couple was in the finale with the whole bait-switch thing. I think that they have the foundation of what could be a well written romance, but they haven't grown off of that yet. But I bet that  now that we have established that there is a possibility, then yeah, I think that they could be a well written romance. 

 

I think that a lot of you brought up good points in regards to Felicity. I think we need to see Felicity as a non-arrow member before we see her be with Oliver because right now, team arrow and Oliver are her life and I don't think that's healthy for a person. So yes, I'm all for developing Felicity as a character. 

 

And while the whole Darkness/Light is a bit contrived, I think that maybe what the writers meant was that Oliver tends to be his worst critic and he needs someone to help him see the light he already has in himself. Felicity isn't meant to be that light, she's just meant to make him start believing in himself and stand up for what's right which is exactly what she did in the finale. She showed him that there always is another way. And if it wasn't for Felicity, I doubt Oliver would've truly ever felt like a hero. But yeah, I think the characters in the show need to be their own light, but that doesn't mean others can't help them see what they have in themselves right? I was actually hoping for Oliver to help Sara see that in herself but I don't think she really wanted to. I don't think she's at that stage yet and maybe Oliver isn't the person who was meant to guide her like Felicity guided him, maybe it's Laurel or someone else? Who knows. 

 

If I'm being honest with myself, I actually don't mind seeing Felicity 'pining' for Oliver. I mean, before I got married I used to do it all the time. It's something I relate to because women and men often do pine for people who are unavailable, and while it hurts, it's realistic and it makes me relate to Felicity even more. What's important is for Felicity to realize that there are other men in the world (which I think she does), and that her life doesn't revolve around Oliver. 

 

So are Felicity and Oliver being together right now believable? No. They have a lot of growing up to do before they could ever be with each other. But, could they be in the future? If Oliver/Felicity in season 3 are written well and progress well in season 3, then most definitely. I feel like when they do get together, they would be each other's be all end all. 

[Password]

And while the whole Darkness/Light is a bit contrived, I think that maybe what the writers meant was that Oliver tends to be his worst critic and he needs someone to help him see the light he already has in himself. Felicity isn't meant to be that light, she's just meant to make him start believing in himself and stand up for what's right which is exactly what she did in the finale. She showed him that there always is another way. And if it wasn't for Felicity, I doubt Oliver would've truly ever felt like a hero. But yeah, I think the characters in the show need to be their own light, but that doesn't mean others can't help them see what they have in themselves right? I was actually hoping for Oliver to help Sara see that in herself but I don't think she really wanted to. I don't think she's at that stage yet and maybe Oliver isn't the person who was meant to guide her like Felicity guided him, maybe it's Laurel or someone else? Who knows.

 

Except the last part about Laurel, I agree wholeheartedly about this statement. Sara told Oliver to find someone who would encourage him to hold onto that light because they were at odds with their morals. She thought killing was right when necessary and he has the no-kill rule. It was a fundamental stumbling block in their relationship as seen by their continued fighting over the same thing. He wanted to live a certain way and she didn't understand it. There was nothing contrived about her saying that because she saw things how they were, and you can't have a normal relationship when you're so at odds with something so foundational.

 

Laurel has said she knows Oliver in his bones. Gosh the amount she's knocked him down is amazing. I am intrigued by how their relationship will go now, now that she knows. Onwards and downwards please.

[statsgirl]

 

t was a fundamental stumbling block in their relationship as seen by their continued fighting over the same thing.

He even said it again (in Seeing Red, I think) that he was tired of having the same fight over and over again,.

 

I think to make a relationship successful, you have to see the best part of the other person (Laurel got that right, even though she wasn't seeing the real Oliver) and the other person has to see themselves, that best self, through  your eyes.  You have to make each other better. That's what I got from the light/dark speech, that Sara felt that who she was wasn't going to make Oliver a better person if he stayed with her.

 

I'm bitter that the show keeps having Sara beat herself up for not being good enough, while Laurel acts like she's wonderful..

Edited June 4, 2014 by statsgirl

[FAU]

 

maybe it's Laurel or someone else? Who knows.

 

Please not Laurel, they'll probably force this relationship in the future unfortunately, but please no.