All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[catrox14]

From the Into the Mystic thread

RE Dean's "uncanny" instincts.

 

 

Oh, and I agree, Dean has an superior instincts (I agree with catrox, they may have started uncanny but now they are earned). 

 

 

I think that's canon at least through S8.  Once the whole Gadreel thing and Mark of Cain thing happened, I'm not sure it's been all that "right".  Now, however, in a "reboot" to S1 - ish.  There's an indication that the instinct is there.  OTOH, his judgement with Amara is at least suspect.  And they may not openly say "Dean has good instincts" on a frequent basis but at least on multiple occasions Dean has been acknowledged as the better hunter. And not just because of his higher kill numbers (DD-stats shout out!).  In one of Aeryn's favorite speech, Sam acknowledged Dean was better than himself and their father. Bobby acknowledged it in another 'favorite' speech as well as when forced to tell the truth in S6.  Now in that latter case, he said Sam was currently better -- but we know now that was because he was soulless at the time.  My point to all this being -- it's part of why Dean is the one both literally and figuratively in the driver's seat.  They've done a better job of balance in S10/S11 but Dean is the one they turn to for the final decision (when they are working together).  I'll summarize it this way: Sam has long been acknowledged to have the "book smarts" but Dean's instincts as a hunter are at least and equalizer in the equation.  If you MUST keep score, that is.

 

 

Respectfully, it's not about keeping score.  It's about the shift in the characterization of Dean to prop other characters...wait for it...NOT named Sam like Bobby, Charlie, and Garth.

 

I don't understand why Dean's instincts and skills as a hunter are now or ever were considered uncanny. I'm seriously perplexed by this.  We met Dean when he was 26 years old. He'd already been hunting for probably 8+ years.  He sure didn't have  that uncanny instinct when he was 9 years old because he didn't sense that that the Shrtiga was coming after Sam when he was playing video games. I don't believe if he did he would have ignored them.

 

In s1 through 3, Dean was shown to be happy to read and do research. He cracked books readily. He carried newspapers to read whilst having coffee so he could look for cases. He and Sam even fought over who would do the computer research. Dean made gadgets out of walkmans. He rebuilt the Impala from the ground up.

 

Dean and Sam were pretty equal on the "book learnin'" side of hunting until s3/s4. I don't really even remember any jokes about Dean not being smart or hating reading. Dean teased Sam about being a "college boy" but he did respect Sam's intellect and IMO Sam respected Dean's.  IMO there was no sign that Dean had developed an allergy to research prior to the need to give Bobby Singer a bigger role as the mentor hunter...so the research shifted to Bobby for the most part.

 

I want to say that 4.02, was the first time I can remember that Dean protested research as though he was too bored to be bothered by it and it was like the worst thing EVER. I could have fanwanked that as him being freaked out because God chose him and he wanted nothing more to do with it but it was played as Dean being allergic to research more than Dean didn't want to know anything more about being saved by an angel. 

 

Then in Yellow Fever, we did see Dean reading a book that started to bully him when he was hallucinating so YAY for Dean reading again! But that largely went by the wayside for most of the rest of s4, until we get to Monster at the End of this Book and t HEY LOOK, Dean reads like he always did before with the Vonnegut reveal.  So IMO that was all because Bobby was doing the research now.  That expanded and continued until Bobby died.

 

After Bobby died, Dean was given lessons from Frank about hacking. So YAY the show remembered that Dean is not a Luddite and not allergic to technology.  But then....they took it all away when they brought in Charlie.

 

Dean's intellect, 'book learnin' and aversion or enjoyment of technology seems to now but be in direct proportion to the need to prop other characters (not named Sam). I get it in the world of expanding the cast to be more ensemble but it peeves me that they do it at the expense of Dean's intellect. Yet when Dean does figure something out after 30+ years as a hunter it goes to him have uncanny instincts...which dismisses his EARNED skills.  

 

Dean is naturally intelligent just like Sam. But I guess it's easier to knock down the intellect of Dean more than the college educated kid to make way for others to serve those plots.  But IMO Dean has earned EVERY bit of his instincts from the beginning.

Edited February 3, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

In one of Aeryn's favorite speech, Sam acknowledged Dean was better than himself and their father. Bobby acknowledged it in another 'favorite' speech as well as when forced to tell the truth in S6.  Now in that latter case, he said Sam was currently better -- but we know now that was because he was soulless at the time.

 

I moved my response to the Bitterness Thread. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Aeryn13

[AwesomO4000]

Dean's intellect, 'book learnin' and aversion or enjoyment of technology seems to now but be in direct proportion to the need to prop other characters (not named Sam). I get it in the world of expanding the cast to be more ensemble but it peeves me that they do it at the expense of Dean's intellect. Yet when Dean does figure something out after 30+ years as a hunter it goes to him have uncanny instincts...which dismisses his EARNED skills.  

 

Dean is naturally intelligent just like Sam. But I guess it's easier to knock down the intellect of Dean more than the college educated kid to make way for others to serve those plots.  But IMO Dean has earned EVERY bit of his instincts from the beginning.

 

I didn't mean to insult Dean's skills - which are indeed earned - in any way. It's obvious - in my opinion - that Dean has great instincts as a hunter and that those come from experience. I meant to reference times when - in my opinion only - there should be almost no way Dean should be able to suggest a fullproof course of action based on the information they have. And in my opinion, Naomi is an example of that. Everything they knew about Naomi would point to not trusting her. Just recently Cas had tried to murder Dean based on her influence, so her showing up and saying all of a sudden (paraphrase) "I know I've done a zillion horrible things in the past, but this time please believe I'm telling the truth" and Dean knowing to believe that she is this time telling the truth - to me - stretches the credibility of even his instincts... especially because she is an angel, a group of beings who Dean usually trusts as far as he can punch them. To me that was similar to having Sam claim all of a sudden that Gadreel was their "real friend." Really? Shut up Sam, not too long ago you wanted to revenge kill the guy. There is no way that Sam could be entirely sure at that point that Gadreel was a "real friend." For me, that was a sad attempt to have Sam go back to his "give the supernatural being a chance" stance after messing it up so badly with Benny, but it just fell flat, in my opinion.

 

My main point was that Dean would be very unlikely to find himself in Sam's position - misinterpreting the visions as coming from God - because even in situations that should go beyond his instincts - like Naomi - Dean is often somehow able to pull the right read of the situation seemingly out of a hat. That is in addition to his already honed instincts.

 

I apologize for not making that more clear. I should have chosen my words better and not used "usually."

 

 

As for Dean's skills being downplayed for other characters (not Sam), the same thing happens to Sam. Once Bobby came onto the scene - as you say - Sam seemed to get "dumber" as well. He would research, but generally not get the right answer anyway - examples off the top of my head: "A Very Supernatural Christmas" and "Tall Tales" or he would just finally say "we should call Bobby" or he gets outright insulted for being dim as in "Frontierland." And despite all the experience Sam has had hunting - which admittedly isn't as much as Dean, but is still experience - his instincts are generally shown to be for crap, including Ruby, Benny and the whole Martin fiasco, and recently this Lucifer thing.

 

At least Dean, as SueB pointed out in the "Into the Mystic" thread, is shown to be the go to leader of the group. With Bobby first, and then Charlie and Garth to a lesser extent to take over the research type stuff, I'm not even sure what Sam's role in the equation is supposed to be anymore - when he's not getting kidnapped and tied to chairs (or poles) or causing apocalypses that is.

 

Bobby might have been saying this because Sam was soulless but that`s not how that message was conveyed. It was supposed to say to the audience that a writerly mouthpiece like Bobby thought Sam was the superior hunter. Again, can`t remember the writer but they, too, can shove it where the sun don`t shine. 

 

Bobby's opinion on that might've meant more if he hadn't been praising a psychopath who thought nothing of using innocent people (including Dean) as bait while hunting and not caring if those people died in the process, or you know, if Bobby had actually figured out that that wasn't really Sam that he'd been talking to for an entire year. And if the writer's message is that a psychopath makes the a better hunter... then I'm not sure that I want to sign on with that message entirely. In the strictest sense, yes, soulless Sam probably was the better hunter maybe in terms of numbers (for one thing, he didn't sleep, and for another he didn't give a crap about anything but the kill), but in quality and in the actual saving people part - which is kind of important - that was shown definitively not to be the case over the next few episodes by the show. "Unforgiven" made that clear enough, in my opinion, showing that in that case soulless Sam actually made even more monsters rather than actually doing the job.

 

If Dean is ever really acknowledged for the unique part that he brings to hunting and not have it usurped by other characters who have their own shtick but suddenly can also perfectly do what he brings to the table while the reverse isn`t true, it would be a happy-making episode for me.

 

Already done pretty much. Dean was the only one to figure out that Sam wasn't Sam and have the intelligence and the will to make sure Sam's soul got out of that cage. No one else either noticed or cared enough to think that Sam's soul shouldn't be left rotting in Lucifer's cage or came up with a way to get it done. It wasn't exactly a "hunt" per se, but it was his hunting instincts that told him something was wrong and his hunter contacts and skill which allowed him to get the job done.

Edited February 4, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[shang yiet]

Show Sam having uncanny instincts too instead of being led down the garden path again, screwing up. Otherwise, he might as well retire and let Dean run the whole show. I'm sure Dean can do his own research so Sam is not needed really.

[SueB]

For the record, I totally bought Naomi's and Gadreel's sincerity.  I don't think either character's instincts were out of left field in those instances. And the rest of the 'Sam/Dean (depending on your particular perspective) is written as useless' comments feel more based on bitterness to me than actual story narrative from my POV. Perhaps the conversation could be continued over there? 

[AwesomO4000]

SueB: *Hangs head and channels Animal* Sawwwry

 

And I tried to figure out what to move over there instead, but it looked like it would be messy to extract stuff, so I only took one thing out gave up.

 

Concerning Naomi: I think for me we probably knew too much about Naomi - that the characters didn't know - for me to separate that and see her as anything but untrustworthy. I still don't even know what the hell it was Naomi even wanted in the first place, and she was actually in a bunch of season 8. We've had big bads with much less screentime who made a lot more sense in terms of motivation, I think anyway.

 

And the sad thing is that I used to be a very happy fan for most of the show run.

 

It was season 8 that screwed with me, big time... and then just as I thought things were getting better, the second half of season 9 hit me upside of the head. I'm trying to recover, and season 10 was going so well... until the very end, but things are looking up, and if they continue in the current vein, soon I can say (warning: Night Court* reference coming) "But I'm much better now."

 

* Apparently, I'm old.

[Omegamom]

Well, so far they've done a good job of staying on focus on the story arc for the season. But I'm still not over last season's horrible, terrible, no-good, very-bad 180 in the season finale, and won't trust them to bring this one home until the finale is over and done.

[catrox14]

 

For the record, I totally bought Naomi's and Gadreel's sincerity.  I don't think either character's instincts were out of left field in those instances. And the rest of the 'Sam/Dean (depending on your particular perspective) is written as useless' comments feel more based on bitterness to me than actual story narrative from my POV. Perhaps the conversation could be continued over there?

 

IMO with a show that's been on as long as SPN with such a robust history and arcs that the show ITSELF has chosen to revisit, is bound to bring up matters from that past that inform the current on screen narrative. How can they not when the show is bringing back the past in the present? I think it's fair discussion in the All season thread.

 

I don't think comments are "useless" nor should be assigned a motive for their existence.

 

Theoretically comments in the bitterness thread are supposed to be there for the comment but not really have a back and forth about said opinions. So where else can there be a respectful discussion if not in the All Seasons thread? And IMO it's been largely respectful. 

[SueB]

I think you misread my comment.  I didn't say the comments were "useless", I said that perhaps comments that said specific character are "written as useless" belonged in the bitterness thread.

 

This was in keeping, I felt, with the guidance below.

 

 

From the Mod thread:

The Powers That Be HATE Sam. The Powers That Be HATE Dean. The Powers That Be LOVE Sam. The Powers That Be LOVE Dean.

From now on those type of posts are to go here and not anywhere else.

If we see them in any other thread, the post will be deleted not moved.

 

I'll just let the mods handle it from here on out.

Edited February 5, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

Okay yeah I did read that wrong. Sorry.  Thanks for clarifying. 

[FlickChick]

Sorry, SueB, but if you had used the double quotation marks in your original post, catrox probably would not have read it wrong. I had to go back and read it myself a couple of times before I got your "written as useless" meaning.

 

But, IMO, the really sad part of this whole discussion is that we probably wouldn't be having it if the narrative and characters were well written and kept consistent from episode to episode and season to season. Someone should  fire the so-called showrunner and most of the writing staff. But, alas, I'm fairly sure that it is too late for that. :(

Edited February 10, 2016 by FlickChick

[Demented Daisy]

Sorry, SueB, but if you had used the double quotation marks in your original post, catrox probably would not have read it wrong. I had to go back and read it myself a couple of times before I got your "written as useless" meaning.

 

And yet... I got her meaning the first time.  I had to go back and reread what SueB wrote because I didn't have a clue what catrox was talking about.  I thought that I had misread SueB.

Edited February 11, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Diane]

I have just started rewatching season 6 after having just rewatched season 7. Just really don't want to watch season 8 again right now and if I skip the Campbell crap in season 6 I really like it. It has some really great episodes.

[MysteryGuest]

Ok, obviously I am not very quick on the uptake, because I just now realized that the man who plays Tiny in Folsom Prison Blues is Clif Kosterman, the boys' bodyguard/driver/whatever.  I've watched that episode more than a few times, and it wasn't until just now that I realized who he was.  I wonder if this is when they met him, or whether he was already acting as their bodyguard at the time?  Interesting...

[DittyDotDot]

I'm not sure if Folsom Prison Blues is where they first met him or not, but I believe Clif was originally employed by the show as a driver around set. I think that's how he actually got the gig with Jared and Jensen to begin with; driving them to and from set. I don't recall which season he started providing security for them, but I think he's been driving them around since S2 or S3.

 

I think he's also done some work as a stuntman previous to his work on Supernatural.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, according to IMDB, he has done some acting.  I just can't believe I never made the connection before.  I guess he's found his calling at this point, because he's always around the guys.  He's even gone on vacations with them.  It seems strange to me that they would need that sort of protection, considering they're not on a big network show.  Are SPN fans that stalkerish, or is this normal for all celebrities?

[Diane]

Well, according to IMDB, he has done some acting.  I just can't believe I never made the connection before.  I guess he's found his calling at this point, because he's always around the guys.  He's even gone on vacations with them.  It seems strange to me that they would need that sort of protection, considering they're not on a big network show.  Are SPN fans that stalkerish, or is this normal for all celebrities?

I would be curious about that too.

[ahrtee]

All it takes is one over-the-top crazy as opposed to normal crazy fans (look at John Lennon!) 

 

I wonder if it's an insurance requirement of the network/producers, the way they take out policies on stars/won't let them do dangerous stunts because the show's toast if anything happens to The Star.  With all the cons and public appearances, they do have a lot more contact with fans than other actors.

[DittyDotDot]

I'm sure there are some very wacky fans out there, but I don't get the impression they have constant security, just when they're out in public like at the cons. Sometimes people don't understand reasonable boundaries and when it's a good sized crowd... 

 

I think Jensen mentioned at a con once the show started to provide them with a driver in S2 or S3 because they work such long hours and it also made sure they showed up on time. It seems like once the cons got popular and the crowds grew bigger they needed some help with crowd control. 

[MysteryGuest]

It makes sense, I guess.  And you're right, it does only take one nut job, and sadly, the world is full of crazy people.  The also seem to make themselves available to fans, not just at cons, but in their personal lives, as well.  I guess better safe than sorry.

[Wynterwolf]

2007 was also the year that Jensen was accosted by the "Flying Fangirl" at his first convention (a Rogue event held in the UK), but I don't know the specific timing of when Clif assumed his bodyguard duties, but if Jensen didn't already realize he needed extra security, that incident probably sealed the deal.  

Edited February 22, 2016 by Wynterwolf

[catrox14]

The odd thing is that from what I've read and seen from some vids of the guys in the hallways of the con locations, they have other security in addition to Clif. And there are pics of them with fans in public places when they are not together, so who does Clif guard when Jared and Jensen are in different places? Do they flip a coin?

[SueB]

The odd thing is that from what I've read and seen from some vids of the guys in the hallways of the con locations, they have other security in addition to Clif. And there are pics of them with fans in public places when they are not together, so who does Clif guard when Jared and Jensen are in different places? Do they flip a coin?

I'm pretty sure that J2 personally pay Clif. So, when they are apart, I imagine they make the decision who needs him more. Honestly, they spend so much time together (joint family vacations!), it's probably not too problematic.

 

For those who don't know flying fangirl story: http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Asylum_1_2007

 

I will admit that when I first started watching Supernatural and saw how accessible the guys were and how intense some fans were, I was frankly worried.  Honestly, still am a bit.  Misha too. Misha does NOT have a bodyguard and he was randomly attacked (not remotely con related, just a mugging) in Minneapolis.  And I thought, 'I want him to get a security guard'.

[catrox14]

 

I'm pretty sure that J2 personally pay Clif. So, when they are apart, I imagine they make the decision who needs him more. Honestly, they spend so much time together (joint family vacations!), it's probably not too problematic.

 

Wait, I'm confused. I thought he was paid by the CW or WB?

Edited February 22, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

Wait, I'm confused. I thought he was paid by the CW or WB?

I'm pretty sure he's paid by J2.  Know any other CW stars with bodyguards? 

[catrox14]

I'm pretty sure he's paid by J2.  Know any other CW stars with bodyguards? 

 

The CW/WB might have designated a need for J2 going way back because of their popularity that the other actors on CW at that time didn't have. IIRC Jensen had some creepy ass stalker that claimed she was married to him so I wouldn't be surprised if Clif was hired by TPTB around that time.

 

Stephen Amell or Barrowman or Grant Gustin might have bodyguards but we just don't know who they are because they aren't as obvious as Clif.  I wouldn't presume not knowing of  bodyguards means they don't exist.  I would even argue that bodyguards would need to be more incognito for well...security reasons.  

[DittyDotDot]

Clif might still be employed by the show as a driver, but when he provides security, like at the cons, I'm pretty sure he's employed by Jared and Jensen. I would be surprised many shows/studios provide personal security for their actors outside of the studio or filming locations. I'm pretty sure that's probably considered an extra expense actors pick up if they feel they need it. 

 

I don't think Cliff goes everywhere with them, though, only when they have public appearances and such--which are usually together--so I don't think it's a big issue who gets him. It's not like he goes home at with them at night or on the weekends unless he's a guest. I really don't think it's that they're in constant danger or have constant threats or anything like that--or serious ones, anyway--it's just that they do make themselves so available to the fans, so they employ Cliff as a buffer so things don't get out of control. 

[catrox14]

Taking my reply to the Social Media thread.   I've gone way off topic here LOL

[catrox14]

From "The Vessel" episode thread.

 

That's the key tho.  I would think that if you are expecting disappointment, it's harder to see anything but.  I'm not saying that isn't a valid expectation.  It's your choice.  But I think it's also fair to say that if I go into an episode expecting something cool, I'll probably find it. 

 

    For this episode, I expected a Dean-heavy episode and that's what I got.  Sam even said he was "riding the pine." If I was a Sam-only fan, I'd be lamenting that he made that comment. Or that he was fooled by Casifer for half the episode. But what I saw lived up to my Sam expectation --- he keep fighting to help his brother. Didn't go to the sub because risking both wasn't strategic (plus, too tall... seriously). And he saved the day in the Bunker with the Angel-B-Gone sigil. As for Dean, I count this as a Dean-centric episode compared to a more balanced story.  That's okay. "Just My Imagination" was a Sam story.  It balances.  In this case Dean was feeling like he was useless so he pulled the time travel gig. Again.  Dean ALWAYS gets the time travel gig.  Sam's gone a couple of times but this has happened enough it's practically a Dean thing.  So he gets a cool story.  WWII sub, Das Boot, Hand of God glowy moment, hearing a Nazi Necromancer threaten stuff.  Sure, he didn't accomplish anything but be a witness to some cool stuff.  But there was motivation there for him. He watched a group of heroes make the ultimate sacrifice to win their war and help him.  It's not that Dean isn't motivated to stop the Darkness. But witnessing that kind of moment helps you put things in perspective.

    And honestly, I think the Hand of God is either going to come back to be useful or LEAD to something else.

    So... I get that it's not the story everyone wants for Dean.... but I thought it was a Dean character story with an EPIC setting and some very cool mytharc stuff.  Then again, I like the slow burn.

 

Yeah, not IMO. Not even close. But there's eight episodes left. At this point, even one episode that might give us a look inside Dean's head at the present time would be a most welcome change regarding what they've done(or more precisely, what they haven't done) with Dean and his storyline and characterization this season.

 

 

I feel confident in saying that with a show as long running as this, with a loyal audience, there will always be some level of expectation when watching an episode.  I mean we all have hopes/fears about the SL and characters. It doesn't matter if a viewer leans  Sam/Dean/bi-bro/Cas/Crowley/Rowena/Lucifer/The Impala/The Bunker/The Motel Rooms/MoTW vs Mytharc.   We all watch through a prism of some kind so it's likely we all have confirmation bias of some kind. Nature of the beast IMO.

 

 

Anyhoo, back to the discussion of Dean's arc and missing POV. 

 

I think there was more Dean POV re Amara that was discussed at the end of  'Our Little World" between Dean and Cas that was left out. We had the closing scene with Dean, Cas and Sam arguing about Metatron and Amara. Sam leaves the argument but Dean and Cas are not finished IMO because we see them in the background standing on opposite sides of the table looking like they were continuing to argue.  But instead of going back to that argument, the focus shifted to Sam's visions, along with the intercutting of Amara doing the slow mo walk down Main Street to 'Girl You'll Be a Woman Soon" (HORK) with Dean looking pensive and sipping whiskey in the bunker...and Cas is nowhere to be found.  IMO with that song...there was little doubt it was implying a sexual thing between Dean and Amara.  If that was NOT the intention the music supervisor and editor are numbskulls for using that song.

 

After that pretty much no Dean POV that I can think of until 'Oh Brother Where Art Thou" when Dean pulls away from Amara's non-con kiss and says "That's not gonna happen". Finally, we see Dean clearly state that  he's not into being ANYTHING for her, with her, to her of his OWN volition. We know means it because he did try to kill her before she kissed him. In "Love Hurts" we get definitive confirmation from Dean himself that  whatever the connection he has with Amara, it's not love or desire. But sadly IMO that confession was not even about Dean but about Sam's role going forward. 

 

 

Thus far, I have zero expectation that Dean will have an active role in  Amara's resolution. I don't think the nebulous connection is meaningful.  We have no idea how he affects her if at all.  The show chose to not answer the question of why she didn't/wouldn't suck out his soul or why she was woozy after ingesting angel grace and branding Cas. Her being fascinated with Dean is largely irrelevant because if it had been Sam she saw first (which why didn't she if they were in the car at the same time...) she would have been fascinated with him as God's creation. 

 

I don't see her connection as being meaningful for Dean's character growth. And no, I don't include him telling Sam that Amara affected him as such because we have seen Dean confess and admit his feelings after a time throughout the show and when he did, he was shot down or mocked for it (no I haven't forgotten what Sam said in the Purge...he still has to apologize for that one AFAIC). To me, the character growth in that exchange was with Sam actually VALIDATING Dean's feelings and helping Dean understand it wasn't his fault. IMO that was new just like Sam apologizing for not looking for him when Dean was in Purgatory. 

 

Now I could be wrong and the show may be on the verge of flipping the script and that all the set up that I'm seeing thus far, will be for naught and Dean will save the day but right now, the entire setup of S11 is Dean not being the one to fight Amara and not being there to help Sam.

 

Dean's absence from Sam's side in battle with Lucifer, and the impending fight with Amara, were foreshadowed in the first episode and clarified throughout in various episodes with Dean not being with Sam during a battle or fight. (which is ironic considering the show kept saying the boys are fighting side by side LOLOLOL. Maybe Carver meant "together in spirit". )

 

It was pretty much overtly stated in "Just My Imagination".  It was in the dialogue itself when Dean said to Sully "Thank you for being there for Sam when I wasn't".  No distinction was made as to WHY Dean wasn't there. Even though we saw the flashback, the show didn't have Dean or Sam clarify to Sully WHY Dean COULD NOT be there. It was more important to the narrative of s11 (Sam's redemption) that Dean acknowledge SOMEONE ELSE was there for Sam because he wasn't. In that episode a more powerful being (John) kept him away from Sam and in "O Brother Where Are Thou " another more powerful being(Amara) kept him away from Sam, in both cases it wasn't Dean's choice.

 

Devil in the Details:   Dean is still separated from Sam, but is literally sick and barfing. He's not with Amara or Sam at that point. He has to go back to Hell to help Sam but it's not acknowledged as a big deal for Dean by anyone, and ultimately he didn't actually do anything but bring the dog collar which Billy could have given to Crowley.  He got beat up by Lucifer to stall for time for Rowena and then Cas says yes to Lucifer.

 

Into the Mystic:  We find out Dean is vulnerable to the banshee and pining for someone. He was literally hurting himself beyond his control and it was the deaf hunter and Mildred who saved him and Sam.  He could not help Sam

 

In the Jody and Claire episode, Dean was late helping Sam for unknown reasons but he was winded it seemed. 

 

"Love Hurts":  Dean was nearly killed by the Amara look alike. Sam saves him. Dean admits that his connection with Amara is taking him out of the fight; that he's just not strong enough to kill her and that it's all on Sam. 

 

"The Vessel": Sam and Dean are separated again and Dean is powerless to save anyone on the boat and he was powerless to protect Sam from Casifer, because he didn't know it was Casifer. And we have Dean say "I was just a witness". 

 

 

I see a lot of chatter that it's  building up to Dean learning to let go of Sam because he couldn't let Sam go before or that Dean can't control destiny...and I call hogwash on those, because we've already been there in S5 with Dean accepting Sam's choice to be Lucifer's meatsuit and stand by as he watched Sam jump into the pit. Sure he looked for a way to get him out after the face, but that doesn't mean he didn't already do it.  Unless of course, the upshot will be that Dean has to just what watch Sam die trying to kill Amara and then he retires? That's.....anti-climactic at best and just stupid

 

Hey, maybe the show will surprise me but right now , my expectations are pretty low.

Edited February 24, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

because we have seen Dean confess and admit his feelings after a time throughout the show and when he did, he was shot down or mocked for it (no I haven't forgotten what Sam said in the Purge...he still has to apologize for that one AFAIC). To me, the character growth in that exchange was with Sam actually VALIDATING Dean's feelings and helping Dean understand it wasn't his fault

 

Sam was nice and validating back when Dean confessed about hell in Season 4 too. The mocking came a couple of episodes later. That`s why I hate it when Dean opens himself up like this. It`s like painting a gigantic target on his back. He may not be belittled for it in that moment but it is ammo to be used against him for later. 

 

So, don`t count your hatched chickens just yet. The "Dean, you are weak" scene might still be coming. Or it will be Sam discussing how Dean is weak with someone else. 

[trxr4kids]

 

I see a lot of chatter that it's  building up to Dean learning to let go of Sam because he couldn't let Sam go before or that Dean can't control destiny...and I call hogwash on those, because we've already been there in S5 with Dean accepting Sam's choice to be Lucifer's meatsuit and stand by as he watched Sam jump into the pit. Sure he looked for a way to get him out after the face, but that doesn't mean he didn't already do it. 

I agree it's hogwash. So what if he didn't want to let Sam go in season 8, it's completely different. The show has never said that closing the gates and Sam's death would have sealed hell, possibly not allowing the damned entrance or just ejected the demons. I don't see that Dean getting last minute doubts due to new information given by Naomi is an indication that he just can't let Sam go. Seriously Metatron wrote the tablets. I think when it was down to the wire, his intel was sketchy at best, he did what he has in the past and pulled off a last minute save. I also don't count the Gadreel possession against Dean as a must save Sammy at all costs because we saw Sam agree without asking for any details, like at all, so imo they both wanted him to live. Sam has to accept at least partial responsibility for any negative or positive outcome just like Dean should. Bottom line is that I fail to see how Dean learning to let go or share / be open with his feelings, is in any way new or interesting character development.

[AwesomO4000]

It was pretty much overtly stated in "Just My Imagination".  It was in the dialogue itself when Dean said to Sully "Thank you for being there for Sam when I wasn't".  No distinction was made as to WHY Dean wasn't there. Even though we saw the flashback, the show didn't have Dean or Sam clarify to Sully WHY Dean COULD NOT be there. It was more important to the narrative of s11 (Sam's redemption) that Dean acknowledge SOMEONE ELSE was there for Sam because he wasn't. In that episode a more powerful being (John) kept him away from Sam and in "O Brother Where Are Thou " another more powerful being(Amara) kept him away from Sam, in both cases it wasn't Dean's choice.

 

I thought that the episode established fairly well why Dean couldn't be there for Sam and that Sully understood that. Sully was aware that Dean and John were hunting and seemed to be aware of what that entailed, and that's why he was trying to convince Sam that that kind of life wasn't for Sam and that maybe school was better. Sully also seemed aware of how Dean took care of Sam whenever he could, because he thanked Dean for taking care of Sam before he left.

 

 

As for the letting the other brother go theme, from what I've seen playing out so far, there are maybe just as many hints on that theme for Sam as there were for Dean. It's one of the things Lucifer kept mentioning to Sam in his visions (as John) and while taking him on his memory tour - that he was going to have to be ready to lose people in order to fix this. In the second episode Sam mentioned having to change in that regard, so I don't think that this is just going to be a Dean letting Sam go kind of thing. I'm more thinking that it is going to be the other way around.. especially now after the end of this episode (and from what the previews looked like).

 

And if they do a parallel season 5 like I suggested in the "Spoilers and Speculation" thread, that's likely what will happen... That Sam will have to let Dean sacrifice himself this time... well again, since Dean sort of did that at the end of season 7, too.* And sort of 9.

 

* Which is sort of weird if this is the theme of this season considering they just had Sam apologizing for "letting Dean go" by not looking for him in season 8. Sometimes this show is confusing for me as to what message I'm supposed to be getting... especially when it comes to Sam.

[Bessie]

I'm thinking all this foreshadowing might be about letting Cas go. And I think I'd be okay with that. I hadn't realized how much I disliked the angel politics storylines until we got a season without them. This season has felt far more cohesive and I think that's partly due to the lack of extraneous storylines. I don't want Cas to come back if it means a return to angel politics.

I wouldn't be surprised if they stretched this story into next season. I'm really hating Lucifer, which is a good thing for a villain. MC's acting is steadily improving and I wouldn't mind lucifer sticking around for a while. But, they really do need to develop the Dean/Amara connection. She doesn't come across nearly as evil to me as Lucifer. Maybe they could get rid of her but keep Lucifer.

[SueB]

From "The Vessel" episode thread.

 

 

I feel confident in saying that with a show as long running as this, with a loyal audience, there will always be some level of expectation when watching an episode.  I mean we all have hopes/fears about the SL and characters. It doesn't matter if a viewer leans  Sam/Dean/bi-bro/Cas/Crowley/Rowena/Lucifer/The Impala/The Bunker/The Motel Rooms/MoTW vs Mytharc.   We all watch through a prism of some kind so it's likely we all have confirmation bias of some kind. Nature of the beast IMO.

 

I agree.

 

But me? I see a great season for Dean. 

[catrox14]

I agree.

 

But me? I see a great season for Dean. 

 

 

Which part do you see as a great season for Dean? The past episodes or the future episodes?

[SueB]

Both.  I just feel like Dean actually has had a great deal of character growth.  Look at everything he went thru with the Mark of Cain; losing parts of himself, becoming a demon, barely controlling the dark impulses, losing Charlie, nearly killing Sammy, killing Death and then watching another potential world-ending apocalypse start.  He could easily have been rocking in a corner drooling.  But rather than do the typical self-loathing behaviors, I think Dean's struggle with the Darkness helped him to handle the situation better.

 

Back at the MinnCon M&G in August, Jensen told me that Dean's openness was him slipping back into "don't give a shit" behavior the demon had.  And he's said something similar in either conventions or interviews.  Something along the lines that his soul was starting to twist again during the progression of S10.  BUT, what I see in S11 is a man who is not in denial about anything that happened and is very functional.  More functional than he's been since the S8 trials began. And many ways more functional than he's ever been in his entire life.  Sure, he took a while to tell Sam what was going on. But it felt a little bit more like confusion and shame than lying.  And Sam saw it and didn't throw a fit.  He let Dean tell him what was going on in his own time.  And then just last night, in "Beyond the Mat", Dean rightly knows he's burnt out and encourages them to take a break.  And it was a great break.  Dean got to re-live some good times. And a demon got dead.  Win/Win.  

 

Yes, Dean has been put in a position of being powerless.  But I guess I see that as a potential step towards him putting his own guilt in perspective.  Dean has acknowledged he feels guilty about everything. Feels like if something went bad, it was on him. 

 

From "Shut Up, Dr Phil":

DEAN:
There's always something eating at me. That's who I am. Something happens, I feel responsible, all right? The Lindbergh baby -- that's on me. Unemployment -- my bad.

 

Sometimes it was, more often it really wasn't. Just a product of his warped upbringing.  But I think there is a chance that he might be able to start putting that behind him. I'm not doing a great job of explaining this but I think part of him experiencing this loss of control is for him to RECOGNIZE that being unable to stop bad things is truly okay.  He always lets others off the hook but not himself.  Even though he started off this year with a "spilt milk" attitude towards the releasing of the Darkness, I wondered if part of that attitude was to make sure Sam didn't auger in. (Note for those not use to the idiom, the full expression is 'no use crying over spilt milk' - it's designed to encourage someone to move past mistakes that can't be fixed). But since that first episode, and in subsequent episodes, I've seen Dean starting to literally lighten up a bit.  To roll with the punches like he used to.  Yes, he needed to get the shame he was feeling about Amara out there.  And he's not over that yet. But he's so much more mentally HEALTHY.  He's had a few benders but last night's was for a good cause -- not to drown his sorrows. 

 

Bottom line: Despite feeling like he can't defeat Amara personally, he's in a much better place mentally than he has been since the series started IMO.  And last night's little inspirational speech was heartfelt and not just something for Sam's sake.  I think Dean is overcoming some deep-seeded personal programming that needed to go.  I think it's a good thing.

Edited February 26, 2016 by SueB

[shang yiet]

Back in the s10 finale, Sam validated Dean plenty. He never blamed Dean for the demony things he did, he kept saying 'it wasn't you' when Dean blamed himself. He believed in his brother's goodness.

 

I agree 'Just My Imagination' was not about blaming Dean for not being there. We know why he was not there. Dean was just glad Sully could keep a bored and lonely Sam company in the  the motel rooms.

 

Every season, the theme seems to be about one brother letting the other one go. It's a toss-up whether it is Sam or Dean who has to do this this time. I remember Lucifer's speech to Sam too.

[Aeryn13]

 

I think Dean is overcoming some deep-seeded personal programming that needed to go.  I think it's a good thing.

 

I`m not convinced this is happening. They always go in circles with the character. He has had "up" phases before, followed by being deconstructed again. I saw this starkly in Season 8 where I actually believed he did make some personal headway and that got crushed.

 

But even now, I would want character growth while an interesting, active story is happening, preferably character growth should come from an interesting active story happening to a character. Navel-gazing in and of itself is simply too static for me. It`s like white noise on the radio. Noone listens to it, you fiddle till you find a working frequency. So, for me it`s not a substitute for actually doing something. And so far this Season Dean feels incredibly passive, like he is shackled in place. 

 

It isn`t so much that he accomplished nothing. Noone really accomplished anything so far. At least nothing positive. Sam facilitated a chance for Lucifer to get free and Cas made the idiotic call to run with that right over the finish line. That is basically everything that happened plot-wise during the first 15 episodes now. Amara grew up but she did that on her own.

 

Dean, as far as I can see, is in the exact same place that he was in the Season Opener. Plotwise AND emotionally. Things have been going on around him but he stands passively in place. Even if that was a story, it would be a pretty boring and unengaging one.     

 

I want to say that I do not consider it as bad as the second half of Season 8 where his role was also passive but on top of that incredibly insulting to me. But this Season is just weird IMO. Two thirds have now passed - other shows have whole Seasons that are shorter - and I still kinda wonder when the story is getting going. Kinda like a 600 pages book where 450 pages are prologue. Get started already. You should be done with the second act by this point, going into the climax. Slow burn can work but I consider this wasting 600 minutes.

Edited February 26, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

I feel like Dean has mostly a plot device this season. 

 

He's not had a POV about this Amara thing until like 11.09 and 11.10 and then FINALLY 11.11 but even that IMO served more to advance Sam's SL and even worse Cas/Lucifer and Crowley and the general plot.  Sam and Lucifer are still at the center of the SL because now Sam will be fighting Amara directly (it seems) and Lucifer will be fighting Cas and Crowley (it seems).  Dean may or may not even be involved in the final battle. If Dean is not in the final battle it better not be because Dean needed to learn to let go. Been there done that with both Sam and Cas already.

 

The one thing I have thought IS different and might be Dean's arc this season is Dean's relationship with Cas. Maybe the character arc for Dean is him realizing he loves Cas and might even be IN love with Cas.  Hear me out.

 

In 11.01 his main focus was save Cas.  He was worried sick about Cas. He basically apologized to Cas for beating him up in The Prisoner which was out of his control.  Cas was ready to stand by him to the end of time clearly in that episode.

 

Dean  told Sam we can't Save Cas if we are stuck in the hospital, which lead to the whole argument with Sam saying they have to change.  Dean's focus then kind of shifted to saving the baby. In Form and Void we find out that the sheriff's deputy is bisexual. We have Crowley in female meatsuit in an orgy which points to fluid sexuality.

 

Once they got a lead on Cas, Dean searched for him and found him. They stupidly had Dean maybe hit on a woman in the episode but Dean rescues Cas and talks him down from killing someone.  Yes Cas did beat him up but that was a spell.  They had the conversation in which Cas offered to heal Dean but Dean said he had it coming and essentially that was their apology to each other for their transgressions that were supernaturally influenced. 

 

Cas stayed in the bunker for protection and Dean was taking care of him more or less(Sam helped but this was not about Sam). Then the Amara connection was brought back and as she grew older the more distant Dean was from Cas.

 

Cas is not in the action but is still Netflixin' all day and helping Dean remotely via phone with the werepires( also PTSD)  back at the bunker until he sees Metatron on TV and he takes off to hunt Metatron and beats the shit out of Metatron. Dean is off trying to find Amara to kill her, but he can't for reasons. We end with the argument between Cas and Dean about Metatron and Amara ending with Amara's slow walk and Dean drinking and Sam having more visions.  At that point, I blew off the notion that maybe something was percolating with Dean re Cas. 

 

I know the conventional wisdom is that Dean telling Sam about Amara was some HUGE step in Dean's character growth because Dean was sharing his little thoughts and feelings with his brother, but upon further review I think that was more of a strategic move IMO than an emotional outlet for Dean. The emotional confession already happened with Dean telling Cas. 

 

Dean told Cas about Amara before he told Sam. He admitted he was scared and didn't understand it. He never said that to Sam.  IMO Dean admitting the fear to Cas said more about how much Dean trusts Cas with this particular emotional thing and he sort of always has with Cas. Cas is not inclined to judge Dean or use that vulnerability against him (s6 notwithstanding)

 

But given that the show had Dean talk to Casifer not actual!Cas left me thinking Dean's confession may have been more for plot purpose than bonding between Dean and Cas.  IMO Actual!Cas would have replied with "Dean, what are you afraid of?  Tell me what is happening that you are afraid of?  What is she doing that scares you?" vs  Casifer saying "Dean, tell me everything. Oh we can use that to our advantage'.  Cas would have been more concerned for Dean and not happy to learn that he was being zapped around against his will. Also, does anyone know if Dean ever told Cas or Sam about the kiss?? I feel like that is important.

 

Anyway, now we have Cas as the first thing on Dean's to do list. We have Dean and Cas both reiterating to Sam they MUST save the other with incredibly worried faces and IMO some passion for the task. We have the 3rd party, Sam, reiterating to both Dean and Cas separately, they will save the other. I dunno, that's a pretty common romantic trope.

 

We have Dean telling Mildred who was sexually attracted to Dean, that he's gonna need his hand back when she doesn't let go. And we have Dean being told the same thing when he can't let go of the wrestler's hand.  Romantic trope being reinforced or subverted? I really don't even know anymore with this show. 

 

But I think there is a case to be made that Dean could be bi-romantic possibly  bisexual. He seems to have deep bonding/borderline romantic relationships with men more than women.  He may even be sexually attracted to them on some level (see Dr Sexy and the wrestler, his comments to the Styne about nipples for the ladies or men, I don't judge,  but he doesn't act on those feelings for...reasons. He has sexual relationships with women but not necessarily deep romantic relationships with those same women.  He was with Lisa for a year but IMO he was never really in love with her but he loved her on some level and was trying to fulfill a promise to Sam (which is NEVER a good reason to have a relationship). 

 

I'm pretty sure the show will never go there with Dean, but if they do....I think they've laid the groundwork.  Don't throw the rotten tomatoes at me please. Those are gross. At least the fresh ones I can eat

[AwesomO4000]

I want to say that I do not consider it as bad as the second half of Season 8 where his role was also passive but on top of that incredibly insulting to me. But this Season is just weird IMO. Two thirds have now passed - other shows have whole Seasons that are shorter - and I still kinda wonder when the story is getting going. Kinda like a 600 pages book where 450 pages are prologue. Get started already. You should be done with the second act by this point, going into the climax. Slow burn can work but I consider this wasting 600 minutes.

 

This is definitely a valid way of looking at it, and I agree with you on season 8 - except which part. I hated the first half much more - but for me it actually depends. Using your book argument, I read a book once (and surprisingly I don't read all that often anymore - usually books don't keep my interest as they once did.) entitled When Life Nearly Died: The Greatest Mass Extinction of All Time. I was going through a rough patch with one of my cats - a long time companion - dying, and I was surprised that any book was able to keep my attention during the times waiting for test results and whether he would pull through this latest trip to the pet emergency clinic. But this book did. The interesting thing: looking online at the reviews, they are generally of two different camps. The first one - the one I'm in - found the book fascinating. The other camp criticized the book for taking so long - about 2/3 through the book at least - to get to the actual discussion of the mass extinction.

 

This is a valid criticism, because this did indeed happen. However I found the background information about the historical reasons theories about mass extinctions like this took so long to be accepted in general and which theories usually got pushed to the forefront instead and why, very interesting and well written. So while yes, it took the author 2/3 of the book to get to the actual extinction, I (and the other readers in that camp) didn't care, because I enjoyed the heck out of the ride, and found the other stuff fascinating, informative, and memorable even years later. I didn't consider the first 2/3 of the book wasted, because I liked it and it kept me distracted from the rather unpleasant situation I could've been dwelling on.

 

So what I'm saying is that even if season 11 of the show is like this book, and I definitely understand the point of view of the "where's the discussion of the mass extinction?" camp, so far I'm still enjoying the ride and I'm not holding it against the plot for maybe not being exactly what was advertised. I'll get to my "extinction" eventually, but as long as I'm entertained until I get there, I'll give the writers the benefit of the doubt and give them the leeway to tell me their story. Who knows. There may not even be the equivalent of the "extinction" to come, but maybe if I'm distracted enough, I won't care and might even be tempted to wait until next year. Or even forget that that's what I wanted in the first place. That's what happened with that book. I'd entirely forgotten that it took 2/3 of the book to get to the extinctions until I read the criticisms, because I had barely noticed, and found that even when reminded, I didn't care. I would've waited another 100 pages or 200 even for the author to get there, because I liked the story he was telling along the way, and decided to enjoy that instead for a while.

 

So while I understand if others want to jump off and consider much of the journey a waste of time, I'm enjoying myself and am going to stay on and see where the ride takes me.

[FlickChick]

Catrox, loved reading your post but I agree that the show will never go there with Dean. Sometimes I feel that they play around with the things you mention just to keep the Destiel fans satisfied and watching, but not enough to alienate the "brothers only" fans. Such is life with this show walking a fine line, IMO. 

[MysteryGuest]

I'm not sure I'd want the Dean/Cas relationship to develop into something sexual.  To me, that would be pandering to the audience, because for 10 seasons, Dean was absolutely a straight character.  I think Dean and Cas have always had a special relationship, and they absolutely love each other, but I don't see it as romantic at all.  I think it's healthy to show that two men can have a loving and caring relationship that doesn't automatically mean they're gay.  So many men are afraid to express affection for another man because of that very fear of being labeled.  It's ridiculous, because it really shouldn't matter, gay or straight, but sadly it does.

[Demented Daisy]

So what I'm saying is that even if season 11 of the show is like this book, and I definitely understand the point of view of the "where's the discussion of the mass extinction?" camp, so far I'm still enjoying the ride and I'm not holding it against the plot for maybe not being exactly what was advertised. I'll get to my "extinction" eventually, but as long as I'm entertained until I get there, I'll give the writers the benefit of the doubt and give them the leeway to tell me their story. Who knows. There may not even be the equivalent of the "extinction" to come, but maybe if I'm distracted enough, I won't care and might even be tempted to wait until next year. Or even forget that that's what I wanted in the first place. That's what happened with that book. I'd entirely forgotten that it took 2/3 of the book to get to the extinctions until I read the criticisms, because I had barely noticed, and found that even when reminded, I didn't care. I would've waited another 100 pages or 200 even for the author to get there, because I liked the story he was telling along the way, and decided to enjoy that instead for a while.

 

So while I understand if others want to jump off and consider much of the journey a waste of time, I'm enjoying myself and am going to stay on and see where the ride takes me.

 

And I'm somewhere in the middle.  I am an almost-30 year Stephen King reader, so I'm quite accustomed to what you're talking about.  For me, it's like I said the other day about the seasons of the show being a staircase.

 

Pick an episode from the first 5 seasons.  Almost any episode.  Somewhere in that episode will be a nugget, a kernel, a drop of info about what is happening in the myth-arc story.  And I don't mean a passing, "We don't have anything, so let's do this instead."  (We had that a lot in the first season, but I cut Kripke et al a lot of slack in the first season.)

 

I mean -- Sam and Dean will have a conversation.  Bobby or Ellen or Ash will call.  Cas (or another angel or Crowley) will suddenly appear.  Even if it has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening in the episode, it felt like Kripke was telling us, "Don't worry, we haven't forgotten."

 

Well, with Carver, I feel like the message is, "We don't know yet and we don't care."  It doesn't seem to bother anyone that they don't have a vision, a plan for the season.  And they fill the MotW episodes with that message.

 

I don't mind if the staircase is long and spiraling.  I just don't want to feel like I'm wasting my time climbing it when I could easily skip steps.

[DittyDotDot]

What if the staircase leads to nowhere in the end, how will you feel about that? ;)

 

I do love a good tortured metaphor!

[catrox14]

I'm not sure I'd want the Dean/Cas relationship to develop into something sexual.  To me, that would be pandering to the audience, because for 10 seasons, Dean was absolutely a straight character.  I think Dean and Cas have always had a special relationship, and they absolutely love each other, but I don't see it as romantic at all.  I think it's healthy to show that two men can have a loving and caring relationship that doesn't automatically mean they're gay.  So many men are afraid to express affection for another man because of that very fear of being labeled.  It's ridiculous, because it really shouldn't matter, gay or straight, but sadly it does.

 

 

My post was about Dean's possible bisexuality not that Dean is a closeted gay man. 

 

Dean being sexually attracted or romantic towards men in no way changes or removes Dean being sexually attracted to women in the past, present or future. Nor does it mean Dean cannot express deep platonic affection for men (and women) to whom is he not attracted to or feels romantically attached. 

 

I think the show plays with those dynamics quite a bit. Not sure why or what it will amount to but like I said, IMO, there is groundwork there.  YMMV

Edited February 27, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

What if the staircase leads to nowhere in the end, how will you feel about that? ;)

 

I do love a good tortured metaphor!

 

Dear Chuck, in Heaven or on earth, I will strike down upon TPTB with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers Winchester.

 

Or, you know, bitch about it all summer until S12 starts.

[catrox14]

I think we have this to look forward to :)

 

[MysteryGuest]

You're absolutely right, Catrox, opinions may vary.  I don't personally get a gay or bi vibe from Dean, but that doesn't mean that the writers won't go a completely different way, if they're so inclined.  I would prefer they didn't, because I enjoy their relationship the way it is, but that's just me.  Now Dean and Crowley...that's a whole nuther conversation!  

Edited February 27, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[Demented Daisy]

I have gotten the impression that Jensen is tired of the questions about Dean's sexuality, so I would be -- surprised isn't even the word.  Not even sure if shocked is right.  Flabbergasted?  Gobsmacked?  If the show went there now, after all these years.

 

I mean, they're all professionals, but I can't imagine they'd be okay with it.  Not because it's inherently wrong, but it's not who the characters are for them.

[catrox14]

You're absolutely right, Catrox, opinions may vary.  I don't personally get a gay or bi vibe from Dean, but that doesn't mean that the writers won't go a completely different way, if they're so inclined.  I would prefer they didn't, because I enjoy their relationship the way they are, but that's just me.  Now Dean and Crowley...that's a whole nuther conversation!  

 

HOW DARE YOU?  EWww....Dean and Crowley? The asshole that turned him into a demon? RUDE LOL

 

 I could see them having a threesome but never actually doing anything with each other.  But there is a strong implication that the triplets mentioned in Black were the males they were  playing foosball and having beer with.  Just sayin'...

 

I didn't write my post based on MY personal vibing about Dean and Cas so to speak. I'm just thinking about how that relationship has been portrayed IMO, and how often they do parallel Dean's relationships with men with a romantic relationship between straight characters. It's just interesting to me and makes me wonder. JMHO.