All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[supposebly]

 

Season 8 and 9 may feel better after some time goes by and I know there are fans that thought they could never enjoy season 6 or 7 and now do more than they did live.

 

Replying in the Bitterness Thread.

[SueB]

Excellent article 7Kstar.  Thanks for bringing that in.

[Lrdmordain]

So I'm slightly confused on the Mark of Cain.

 

Did Cain "give" Dean a copy of the mark or did he given him the actual mark, as in he no longer has it himself? Because I think I just recently saw an episode, I cannot recall which but it was one of the recent ones, where they reference Dean having a copy of the mark rather then the mark itself. Further if Cain no longer has the mark because he gave it to Dean, shouldn't that mean he's no longer a demon?

 

I'm so confused on the Mark of Cain storyline so any clarity anyone could offer will help. 

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

Cain gave Dean a  copy as he still has his!

[AwesomO4000]

And having the mark and being a demon are two mutually exclusive things except for the fact that the mark causes one to become a demon if / when they die (and maybe if one has the blade - I'm not sure how critical that part is or if it even is). If Cain could give up the mark, for example, I think he would still be a demon. Dean has the mark both when he was a demon and when he wasn't. When Dean was undemoned by Sam, he still retained the mark.

[amensisterfriend]

I know we all have different senses of humor---and about which comedy is and isn't successful on this show!---so I thought it might be fun to challenge ourselves to pick our 10-15 funniest episodes of the series. Warning: I have a few unpopular selections :) 

[Demented Daisy]

Sorry to hijack, ASF.

 

Supernatural finales don't actually end until the next season (somewhere between EP1-3).

 

 

Hmm.  I would argue that, post-S1, the finales acted more like hybrid season finale/premieres.

 

S2:  Dean sells his soul to save Sam

S3:  Dean goes to Hell

S4:  Lucifer is released

S5:  Sam standing outside Lisa's house

S6:  Castiel gobbling up the Leviathan

S7:  Dean and Cas disappear; Sam is alone

S8:  Sam is dying; the angels are falling

S9:  Dean is a demon

 

All of those things set up and told us exactly what the next season would be about.  Now, those stories were broken up during the following season, to include some side stories, but I wouldn't say that the previous' season's arc was wrapped up at the beginning of the next season.

 

But mileage varies.

[SueB]

Fair point, I'd say it was a split based on when the action started. If in the same instant/day, then I'd say it was a continuation into the next season:

S2: what happened after the car crash and John's death/Dean's survival

S3: time passed

S4: time passed

S5: how they got out of that room

S6: time passed

S7: how they de-nuked Cas

S8: time passed

S9: Sam's still in peril after gasping for air

S10: time passed

 

Using this criteria: S2, S5, S7, S9 are "finales finished in the next season", S3, S4, S6, S8, S10 it was a set-up for the next year.

Split the difference?

 

....

I'm not really understanding Dean's "evolution" in terms of his control over the Mark, though. How much control does he actually have, and how does he have that control, and what are the consequences that he's paying for that control, and what's the time limit on having that control (he seems to be having more and more -- does that mean that things are less and less dire? But the characters are meanwhile acting as though there's a ticking clock...)? How did he become a demon before, and is he a demon now at all (since he still has the Mark), and will he become a demon again once he dies?

 

I'm not understanding this storyline on a really basic, logistical level. And since I'm not especially stupid, that makes me think that how the show has explained/portrayed all this has been really unclear. Are other people feeling like this all makes sense and they have a sense of where Dean's head is at w/r/t the Mark? I haven't really understood what Dean has been thinking in this whole back half. That conversation in the car with Sam, when he said he was going to stop looking for answers (I guess this was in the Deadly Wi Fi!!!1! episode?) was the turning point for me. His plan to not do anything just didn't make any sense to me, because that seems like then he'll become a demon pretty soon? But nobody within the show has brought up that possibility and everyone is acting like it's reasonable and not incredibly dangerous and selfish for him to not do anything and let himself become a demon again if it comes to that. And how is Dean OK with that idea, either? He was categorically NOT OK with it earlier?

 

Well not to blather on about the same old stuff. But not understanding what Dean is thinking or even what he's struggling with w/r/t the Mark and being a demon and all that is keeping this storyline from being at all satisfying to me, even though I originally *liked* it and thought it was fresh and interesting. This whole second half of the season has been so confusing w/r/t the mytharc. I liked this most recent episode, because we got to see Dean acting like Dean! That was fun! But then it turned out that he was bringing out the demon by doing that (and went a little black eyes)? Idk, it's just not making sense to me on a really basic level and now that it's gone on for literally years (since like 2013?!), I'm starting to get frustrated rather than intrigued by it. YMMV.

Since you were responding to me, I think perhaps I've failed. I'll try to be more clear but I accept that what makes sense in my head does not mean it makes sense in anyone else's head.

 

"How much control does he actually have, and how does he have that control, and what are the consequences that he's paying for that control, and what's the time limit on having that control (he seems to be having more and more -- does that mean that things are less and less dire?"

 

Dean literally couldn't stop himself with Metatron, per what he told Sam.  Clearly he stopped himself with the college boys.  I think the consequences of control are the stomach pains and nightmares.  To me, this means Dean's mortal body is physically dying as it's a call-back to S9 finale.  So the consequences are more dire because Dean is going to die and become an immortal demon on this path.  I don't know if Sam could bring him back again.

 

"But the characters are meanwhile acting as though there's a ticking clock...)?"

 

Even though Dean isn't talking, I think Sam and thus Cas understands he's dying.  Sam saw him wincing in pain and he clearly sees the nightmare. So yes, IMO, Sam and Cas know Dean's time is running out.  Dean is resigned to it but is taking comfort that he's going out fighting the Mark versus just succumbing.

 

"How did he become a demon before, and is he a demon now at all (since he still has the Mark), and will he become a demon again once he dies?"

The Mark resurrected him as a demon (who could tolerate the Mark) just like it resurrected Cain (eons ago) as a demon when Cain knifed himself with the Blade. "How" wasn't explicitly explained by Crowley but they seem to talk about the Mark as both protection and a curse.  And a God-level/Lucifer-level per Metatron in this last episode.  We've seen curses have independent effects before.  The curses on the college boys turned them into rage monsters. 

I didn't think he was a demon still but with the black eyes showing, I'm now thinking the demon wasn't completely exorcised.

And I'm fairly sure he's a demon again if his body dies.

 

But nobody within the show has brought up that possibility and everyone is acting like it's reasonable and not incredibly dangerous and selfish for him to not do anything and let himself become a demon again if it comes to that. And how is Dean OK with that idea, either? He was categorically NOT OK with it earlier?

 

ITA they are NOT talking about it and it's frustrating.  I don't know what his plan is if he thinks he's transforming.  I do wonder if the black eyes moment is going to cause him to take some action.  Right now there is nothing in their quiver to take him out.

[Demented Daisy]

Well, I was thinking more along the lines of: was the season arc resolved in the season finale?

 

S1:  They found John but the YED got away.  

S2:  They found the YED and killed him.  
S3:  They were unable to save Dean and he went to Hell.
S4:  Sam killed Lilith.
S5:  Sam jumped in the pit.
S6:  Castiel gobbled up a bunch of Leviathan and defeated Raphael.
S7:  Dean and Castiel killed Dick Roman.
S8:  Sam didn't finish the Trials.
S9:  Dean kills Abbadon but fails to kill Marvatron.

 

I'd say S1 and 9 weren't neatly wrapped up in a bow, and S8 is debatable because Sam didn't finish the Trials.  Is that an ending to the story arc?  We eventually found out yes, but at the time, it could have gone either way.

 

In the end, I suppose it doesn't really matter.  I just like finding patterns, that's all.  :-)

[oliverwendell]

 

And I'm fairly sure he's a demon again if his body dies.

 

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I disagree with this.  I think he only becomes a demon if somebody puts the First Blade in his hand after he's dead.  He was dead at the end of Season 9, and he stayed dead for as long as it took for Sam to drag his corpse back to the Bunker, which was not an insignificant period of time.  Then he laid there, all dead and such, until Crowley showed up and put the Blade in his hand.  Then the Mark got glowy, and he woke up as a demon.  So, unless they've radically changed the rules without telling us (not inconceivable, I admit), canon states that the Mark AND the First Blade are required to resurrect him as a Demon.  

 

Now, maybe the second go-round is different, and he'll demonate without the Blade if he dies again.  But there has been no clear indication that this is the case, unless you count the brief demon-eye flash in the last episode, which I actually don't think was a real thing, and was actually just Dean's mind messing with him as a result of Mark-related physical and mental distress.  So I'm going with Mark + No Killing = feeling "least less better" = DEAD.  But DEAD + Blade = DEMON.

 

That's actually as mathematical as I'm capable of being, SueB.  I hope you appreciate the effort!  :)

[supposebly]

 

I think he only becomes a demon if somebody puts the First Blade in his hand after he's dead.

If that's the case, then his sort of resignation to death makes a lot more sense. Assuming nobody does anything stupid and puts the blade in his cold dead hand.

 

Because if he becomes New!Cain without the blade (and I don't discount that because not much makes sense to me at this point about this mark business) then, there is nowhere where Cas or Sam could run. And it is possible that the blade may not not be necessary the second time around.

[catrox14]

I don't think we know for a fact that the FB is the reason Dean became a demon. It's the Mark that Crowley said wouldn't let Cain stay dead. Not the FB. IMO the FB was just a trigger but since we haven't seen Dean actually die again we don't know for sure.

 

IMO it's The Mark + death= demon!Dean.  The FB is incidental IMO.

[SueB]

First of all, I think demonate (trademark fourteenwords) should be a word.  So, that's my new head canon. Boom! It's an excellent word.

 

And I think I've been treating it as the Mark that re-demonates (see how GREAT that word works! Wait, does your name mean you've made up fourteenwords before and now you are at 15?  This is important. For science.) Dean.  

 

But I think it's fair to say they have been fuzzy ...likely on purpose. Because it allows wiggle room.  The more they specify canon, the more we bust them when they violate it and even worse, the more it binds them in story telling.  

 

So...I'm going to offer up this suggestion ... Dean is acting like it's "the end" when he dies.  I think he's wrong. And I'm betting it won't take the First Blade for him to demonate. 

 

Further, given that he just showed some more whammy powers (resisted Rowena's spell) AND his eyes went black for a second.  He may not be re-demonating (it conjugates!) again at all.  He may be somewhere on the spectrum of demon ever since the first time he resurrected.  Now this is not my theory, it's something catrox and others have been saying for months (and I've been in denial).  So...I think we all could be in for a surprise. Sam and Dean included.

Edited April 3, 2015 by SueB

[oliverwendell]

Yes, I think there may be a vast disconnect between what Dean assumes will happen (death/no demonating) and what will happen (DEATH!/DEMONATING!!!!).  To me, as supposably said, Dean's expecations make his resignation to death make a lot more sense.  He gave the First Blade to Cas, so he thinks there is no way it will wind up back in his hands post-mortem.  So all he has to do is resist the Mark's power until it kills him, and then he will spare Crowley, Cas and Sam from Cain's prophecy.  I imagine he thinks he's mighty clever.  But I doubt it will be quite so simple.

 

(For Sue B, and for science:  I wish I had invented fourteen words.  Far from it.  My user name comes from the Free Speech clause of the First Amendment, which is fourteen words long!  :)  )

[DittyDotDot]

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I disagree with this.  I think he only becomes a demon if somebody puts the First Blade in his hand after he's dead.  He was dead at the end of Season 9, and he stayed dead for as long as it took for Sam to drag his corpse back to the Bunker, which was not an insignificant period of time.  Then he laid there, all dead and such, until Crowley showed up and put the Blade in his hand.  Then the Mark got glowy, and he woke up as a demon.  So, unless they've radically changed the rules without telling us (not inconceivable, I admit), canon states that the Mark AND the First Blade are required to resurrect him as a Demon.  

 

Now, maybe the second go-round is different, and he'll demonate without the Blade if he dies again.  But there has been no clear indication that this is the case, unless you count the brief demon-eye flash in the last episode, which I actually don't think was a real thing, and was actually just Dean's mind messing with him as a result of Mark-related physical and mental distress.  So I'm going with Mark + No Killing = feeling "least less better" = DEAD.  But DEAD + Blade = DEMON.

 

That's actually as mathematical as I'm capable of being, SueB.  I hope you appreciate the effort!  :)

 

Disclaimer: I have not yet seen Inside Man, so possibly talking out of my ass here...

 

I'm not sure Dean needs the First Blade to become a demon. The show has never really clarified this satisfactorily for me. I'm of the opinion the First Blade is a tool that can only be wielded by the Blade, but did nothing to facilitate Dean getting turned into a demon. My crackpot theory is the Mark slowly turns it's bearer into a demon whether he dies or not, but death makes the transformation happen quicker--maybe not instantaneously after death, but quicker than if one doesn't die.

 

I'm gonna have some huge issues if they say Dean has been a demon all this time, but his big goal in life is to hang around with Sam and hunt randoms? Characterization aside though, Dean's walked in and out of a devil's trap and the bunker and had holy water thrown on him...so if Demon Dean's just been laying low, that doesn't work for me. But what if it's not that Demon Dean lurks, but the Mark is slowly turning him back into a demon?

 

So, whether Dean dies or not, I think he's doomed unless they figure a way to remove the Mark at some point. I'd like to see them find the solution with Dean, but I just don't see how Dean can ever truly control the Mark and stay human.

[supposebly]

Are we're going to take bets?

 

My theory:

Dean thinks he needs the blade, otherwise he'll just die horribly.

I think he won't need the blade to become Cain. He'll slowly die from his insides liquifying which enables him becoming and then resurrecting as New!Cain. Flickering in and out of places, being able to kill angels and becoming an overall menace to society.

The blade is for killing knights of hell and Cain. Which might pose a conundrum.

 

Of course, my theory would require that he tells Sam exactly what happened with Rowena. Not doing so is either stupid writing or New!Cain taking over. I hope it's the latter.

[SueB]

Or Dean knows Sam may do something desperate so he's trying to stop him.

[supposebly]

 

Or Dean knows Sam may do something desperate so he's trying to stop him.

That just makes no sense to me if it's not demon Dean lurking. If Dean is so concerned about Sam, shouldn't it be more important to warn Sam that it might be impossible to kill him? That he is now immune to spells?

Edited April 3, 2015 by supposebly

[Demented Daisy]

When have Sam and Dean ever told the other something important?  Some vital piece of info the other needs?  Until it's too late, of course.

 

They have never learned from their massive history of telling lies and keeping secrets.  My head canon is that all the times they've been knocked out has cause massive brain damage that hinders their decision-making abilities.

[AwesomO4000]

Maybe getting strangled contributes as well - lack of blood flow / oxygen to the brain. They certainly get strangled a lot (especially Sam).

[rue721]

I'm gonna have some huge issues if they say Dean has been a demon all this time, but his big goal in life is to hang around with Sam and hunt randoms? Characterization aside though, Dean's walked in and out of a devil's trap and the bunker and had holy water thrown on him...so if Demon Dean's just been laying low, that doesn't work for me. But what if it's not that Demon Dean lurks, but the Mark is slowly turning him back into a demon?

 

I don't think he's a demon per se right now. I think it's more like when someone has tuberculosis and they'll be asymptomatic for a while. Or maybe like when someone has cancer and goes into remission. It doesn't mean the disease is GONE. But it means it's not active right now. And God forbid it becomes active again. I mean, you're still going to be worrying about it coming back, and listening when the person with (asymptomatic) TB coughs, or when the person with cancer in remission starts having pain or is tired.

 

Plus, Demon!Dean was weird. He could slip the cuffs and get out of the devil's trap even before he was cured. Cain wasn't a regular demon either. Regular demons can't teleport or heal -- and Cain was doing all that without the Blade. So I don't really know what it even means that Dean (or Cain) were/are "demons." It's sort of like they're demon-ish.

 

Like how the worm that infected Cole and the other men on that base wasn't a Khan worm, but it was something related or similar -- similar enough so they could deal with it like a Khan worm, but not so similar that it actually was one. Maybe Dean (and Cain) are to regular demons what those new worms were to the Khan worms.

 

The person who's likeliest to know all this stuff and be capable of using that knowledge and explaining it to other people is actually Crowley. He's the one who cooked up the plan for Dean to get the Mark of Cain in the first place, and the person who witnessed/helped Dean become a demon. It seems like the guys have ~conveniently~ forgotten all that, though?

[Aeryn13]

 

Regular demons can't teleport or heal

 

Back in Season 1, Demon!Meg did both rather easily so it`s IMO "normal" demonic activities. Just since then the show has been populated with henchdemons where neither the writers nor the special effects crew wanna bother unduly. If demons were still played at the power level they were introduced in, we couldn`t get those "the Winchesters randomely knife 2-3 lower level demons with rather ease" scenes. Sure, they have the weaponry to kill-kill them but they also need to be downgraded depending on how quickly they need to be dispatched within the plot of an episode.

 

The same has happened with angels really. And since they took Reapers and made them lame angels, too, they are also neutered. No supernatural species has remained unscathed. Of course, not a small part of this all is IMO due to the current writers never having watched the earlier Seasons (Glass admitted to that, right?) so they don`t even know if they contradict something or write canon nonsense.   

 

For example, if you asked any of them if a demon could possess an angel, they`d probably say no but since Azazel once possessed Tessa the Reaper who was retconned into an angel, they already made exactly that canon. 

[AwesomO4000]

Back in Season 1, Demon!Meg did both rather easily so it`s IMO "normal" demonic activities. Just since then the show has been populated with henchdemons where neither the writers nor the special effects crew wanna bother unduly. If demons were still played at the power level they were introduced in, we couldn`t get those "the Winchesters randomely knife 2-3 lower level demons with rather ease" scenes. Sure, they have the weaponry to kill-kill them but they also need to be downgraded depending on how quickly they need to be dispatched within the plot of an episode.

 

I agree with you on the teleporting. Though it isn't necessarily clear for me if the "teleporting" was related to being summoned with the lower level demons or not, demons did appear to be able to do that. But I disagree on the healing. Even early on in season 1, I thought that it was made clear that demons couldn't heal any more quickly or better than the human host could. It was why Dean and Sam had such a dilemma with exorcising Meg, because her body had been internally damaged so much that she would die once the demon left. If she could heal herself, to me it wouldn't make much sense for her to run around in a damaged body. Similarly, the demon who talked to Dean in "Sin City" (Casey?) mentioned that she made sure to be careful of her host body, because she didn't want it damaged. To me this wouldn't make sense if demons could easily heal themselves. Ruby couldn't heal herself either. Even Alastair, who was not a low level demon - Cas couldn't even smite him - couldn't heal himself after Dean tortured him (and he was still messed up and bleeding all over the place even after he got out of the Devil's trap).

 

Lilith might be different, because she was turned into a demon directly by Lucifer, and that is my theory as to why Cain and Dean can heal as demons. Unlike the usual process of being made a demon, Cain and Dean get their power from the mark which came from Lucifer, and with Lucifer being technically an angel, he can heal himself. So my explanation is that getting the mark from Lucifer means that Cain and Dean can heal unlike other demons. Abaddon too, could heal, because she was a Knight of Hell. But I don't remember any non-Knight of Hell demons being shown as capable of healing their bodies. Demons can animate dead bodies, but those bodies are still dead and/or damaged if left by the demon, and we saw that early on in the series.

 

Dean was able to use his healing power as a demon to repair his skewered body, so that even when he was de-demoned, his body was no longer fatally injured. We've never seen that with any other demons except Cain (presumably) and Abaddon that I can remember.

Edited April 4, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

I thought that it was made clear that demons couldn't heal any more quickly or better than the human host could. It was why Dean and Sam had such a dilemma with exorcising Meg, because her body had been internally damaged so much that she would die once the demon left.

 

That is something that logcially I never quite got. Internal bleeding, maybe but I thought many of her bones were shattered from that fall. Yet as long as the demon animated the host, she walked around quite nimbly. Well, how is that possible without an intact bone structure holding the body upright and allowing perfect movement? Even if you don`t feel any pain, it doesn`t work. She should have merely flopped around like a jellyfish if she couldn`t heal the bones. 

 

I can get the bleeding practically being "frozen" so the body will work but the demon should have healed the bones to keep it functional. Then, it would still make sense if the demon left and the bleeding "unfroze", that Meg the human would bleed out internally. Hence, healing a small cut on the cheek should also be well in the realm of demonic abilities. And I know the writers probably didn`t think all that much about any of this.   

[catrox14]

I just figured the demons were strong enough entities to just hold the body together until they left it. Not that it magically healed the bodies but I guess the power and super strength to use it like a marionette more or less. Meg was pretty much floppy and unable to walk after the exorcism wasn't she?

[Love]

Hi.  I'm new to this thread.  I'm not even sure if this is the right place to ask a question.   I just finished binge watching the first 8 seasons of this show on Netflix.  I was never into the show before this, so I didn't start DVR'ing until around episode 13 of this season.  My question is, how soon after the season ends does Netflix put it out?  Is it around the same time as the DVD's are released?  I just don't want to get into Season 9 too quickly if there will be a long wait for S10.

[catrox14]

Yes, I think the Netflix premieres are within a week or so of the DVD releases :).

[Love]

Thank-you.  That's what I thought.

[catrox14]

Oh man... I was just watching 9.23 on TNT and of course started crying...and then they follow it with the Pilot...and jeebus...I cried again because...our babies...and Sam being so innocent-ish then and Dean so cock sure and still sad...and then everything they've been through .and holy shit...This show. This fucking show and how it makes me feel...and I just...

 

meep.

[supposebly]

Continuing my thoughts I started in the Angel Hearts thread about this possible focus of the show on the collateral damage that comes with meeting a Winchester and associates.

 

I think in the past, whenever someone pointed out that the Winchesters are bad for your health, it was usually some other evildoer who would. I seem to remember Crowley repeatedly pointing that out to Kevin. So, overall, it wasn't really taken seriously. Of course, if the show were in any way consistent, we would have to revisit Cindy the nurse that spent time in Ruby's trunk at the end of season 4. That still bugs me sometimes. So far, Dean hasn't actually killed anyone that wasn't previously pointed out as bad buy. He really hasn't directly killed anyone completely and utterly innocent who just got in the way.

 

What is different now is that it seems there is a lot more focus on that collateral damage and it is pointed out by the victims themselves (Clair, Susie). So, the question arises: Where is the line here when the overall purpose of saving lives gets innocent people killed or their lives destroyed.

 

Once could argue that doing everything in their power to prevent NewCainDemonDean from existing will outbalance any collateral damage. Right now, it doesn't seem so, since DemonDean hasn't shown himself to be all that dangerous to regular people, only douchebags, bad boyfriends, and rapists.

Of course, the worse he is when he becomes NewCain, the more justified Sam's actions to prevent that will look.

Edited May 1, 2015 by supposebly

[AwesomO4000]

Of course, the worse he is when he becomes NewCain, the more justified Sam's actions to prevent that will look.

 

Unless it is somehow Sam's actions which inadvertently cause Dean to become NewCain... in which case Sam will mostly just be cleaning up his mess again - a la season 5's cleaning up his mess from the end of season 4. But I don't know how it will play out. Hopefully it won't be mostly damage control.

Edited May 1, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[shang yiet]

You could say this season Sam is cleaning up Dean's mess just like S3.

[AwesomO4000]

I meant that in season 5 Sam was cleaning up his own mess from season 4, so Sam's actions with the book would end up being less "Sam was justified" and more "Sam now has to do damage control" (as he did in season 5). Sorry that I didn't make that more clear in my post.

[trxr4kids]

I meant that in season 5 Sam was cleaning up his own mess from season 4, so Sam's actions with the book would end up being less "Sam was justified" and more "Sam now has to do damage control" (as he did in season 5). Sorry that I didn't make that more clear in my post.

Personal question did Azazel visit your nursery too? Or do you think were all stuck in Mystery Spot together? Maybe a bizarre version of it?

[AwesomO4000]

Personal question did Azazel visit your nursery too? Or do you think were all stuck in Mystery Spot together? Maybe a bizarre version of it?

 

Hee, trxr4kids. I just know how this show basically works under Carver. I wasn't exactly sure how it would happen - because how could I predict that "Dean's mark of Cain is a key" (a la Dean = Dawn): I don't think even Azazel's premonition powers are that good - but I had a pretty good idea it was gonna end up that somehow Sam would start another apocalypse, because there were just too many signs * telling me that it was gonna happen.

 

I was also 100% sure - I would've bet good money on it - that Benny was going to be good from the moment we met him. Somewhere in the SPN threads of the lost TWoP was my prediction on that also.

 

* signs being other characters telegraphing it. The unexpected thing for me would've been if Sam hadn't started an apocalypse.

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

So, just binge-watched all of S10 a few days ago...  seriously, SPN, hate to tell ya, but you're getting pretty long in the tooth these days.  I remember back to the first 5 seasons, this show was the bees knees.  But other than some glimpses of brilliance, its all been pretty lackluster since the S5 (original show's planned run) finale.  When Castiel and Crowley are given star status in the credits and screen time, its time to sit back and micro-analyze.

 

• Just what purpose did the 'angels' storyline really provide to this season?  Other than Hannah ditching the female suit for a male one, because feelings = bad!; what a complete waste of air time.  I could have kicked the bucket from LMAO so hard and so long when they showed that souls could push around honest-to-God angels and cause a mini-riot.  And, oh gee look, Metatron fooled and tricked Castiel (& the angels) yet again!  Who would have ever saw that coming?!

 

• One human could contain the key (at least) to The Darkness.  The Darkness that God and all his archangels were barely able to lock away.  That was a running joke by TPTB, right??  A "fans are idiots who will eat up anything we throw out there!" 36-episode [1.5 seasons] sarcastic jibe.  Oh, but hey, it gave us an implied version of what it would be like to witness a Soulless!Dean (at times), to make up for Soulless!Sam's arc in the first half of S6.

 

• Sam is so concerned with saving Dean from something, he does immoral and 'evil' things without regret.  Oh, and kicks off another "apocalypse".  Hello (mostly) recycled character story lines from seasons 3, 4, 5, 8 and 9.

 

• What a waste of a fantastic opportunity by only making the franken(Styne) plot last only 2.5 eps instead of making them a season long BigBad.  And really, Show and Network, that should have been your spin off idea and plan, instead of that complete waste of a SPN episode last year that went nowhere and wasted a late-season episode so wrongly.

Edited June 5, 2015 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[rue721]

I keep going up and down on that. S8 was particularly frustrating because the show suddenly wasn't the show anymore, but once I adjusted, I actually think some of the ideas and episodes were better executed and there was an energy surge at the beginning of S8 that gave the show some new life, IMO. S9 is basically a non-entity to me; I just think of it as a boring, jumbled mess. I do think S10 was better in the sense that Sam and Dean were more Sam and Dean than not, but the entire season was pretty lackluster and ho hum to me. I really don't know if I can actually rank the Carver years, they really just don't speak to me. I'm trying to remain optimistic that S11 will be the season Carver figures it all out, but realistically, I know better.

 

I think that the seasons have become more consistent, in that the episodes don't vary so much in quality. But the mytharcs still don't make any damn sense. I had real hope for the mytharc this season! But then it went out in such a confused little whimper.

 

I wonder who's going to be on the writing staff next season? Is it a given at this point that Carver's going to be showrunner again?

 

S8 didn't really come in with a bang or with a lot of new energy for me. Imo, it actually seemed kind of dreamy, slow, and weird. I thought that, of the three seasons, S10 actually had the freshest, most interesting opener. But eh, I was curious about what Dean would be like as a demon -- the idea got my imagination working. The potential got squandered, but I felt like it was there at first.

 

S8's opener didn't set up very suspenseful stories imo -- "Sam hit a dog" is a joke, and the Purgatory storyline could have been OK, except that literally the first scenes in the premiere revealed how that story ended (with Dean safely escaping). S9's opener was so dominated by the (imo, inherently dull) angels, and having Sam be possessed undermined any storyline he might have had (since then the "Sam" storyline was really going to be about whoever was possessing him), and Dean's storyline was OK, but so internal and pretty unflattering -- so that stuff didn't really get me revved up for the season, either. But YMMV.

 

I guess, overall, S9 wasn't a big favorite of mine because Sam was more-or-less MIA for a long time, and then when he FINALLY was back, Dean got the MoC and started not acting like *him*self. We barely ever had them both there at once! And Dean was weird again all this season.

 

That's one thing I'm looking forward to in S11 -- the brothers being themselves AND together again!

[DittyDotDot]

S8 didn't really come in with a bang or with a lot of new energy for me. Imo, it actually seemed kind of dreamy, slow, and weird. I thought that, of the three seasons, S10 actually had the freshest, most interesting opener. But eh, I was curious about what Dean would be like as a demon -- the idea got my imagination working. The potential got squandered, but I felt like it was there at first.

 

I was more speaking about a new energy with the cast and crew. There was an excitement surrounding the show at the start of S8, but unfortunately the show itself didn't live up to that excitement, IMO.

 

Story wise, I'm not sure the show is any better or worse over the course of the Carver years. I think S10 was just as much all over the map as S8, but I do think the show looked better in early S8. The show has become so static over the last couple seasons--lots and lots of basic sit and/or stand n' chats and the camera seems to rarely move anymore. But, the beginning of S8 still had some visual style to it.

 

I don't know, like I said, none of the Carver years have really spoke to me.

[amensisterfriend]

So now that the show's completed 10(!) full seasons and we've had time to rewatch episodes, reconsider some of our initial opinions in light of how well they hold up over time and given what happens later on, etc., how would you guys now rank the 10 seasons from your personal favorite to least favorite? As always, the cruel rule that no ties are allowed is in effect :) 

[SueB]

@amensister:

We are debating what to do next in the Surivival Thread (http://forums.previously.tv/topic/2558-supernatural-survival-game/page-64#entry1257884) so I brought your idea of top funniest episode over there.  Come join us!

 

My rankings as of this moment (subject to change based on time of day and alcohol content):

 

S4 - I LOVE the serial story-telling and the ANGELS

S2 - In My Time of Dying to AHBL Pt2 ... a rock 'em sock 'em season

S5 - It had EPIC episodes

S10 - I love Dean's arc and sweet Sammy being sweet.

S6 - I LIKED Souless Sam

S1 - Some spectacular eps

S7 - Hurt my heart alot

S9 - Start of the Crowley and Squirrel bromance

S8 - Benny! Purgatory!

S3 - Short but sweet with some of the BEST episodes of the series ... but I didn't like the bigger arcs

[AwesomO4000]

Wow this is difficult. Okay, this reflects my current opinion and is probably way too talky, so I apologize amensisterfriend, but it's how I do, and I'm too stubborn to change. This is all my opinion here...

 

S2 - Lots of strong episodes. I didn't mind the Psychic kids storyline. Liked the Dean and Sam relationship. On rewatch, I hardly skip an episode.

S5 - I agree with SueB on the great episodes. I actually felt that the brother conflict / angst was believable and well done here. Dean was believably hurt and Sam genuinely worked hard to make it up to him. I loved where the brothers were at the end of the season and that Sam finally got to do something right after 5 seasons.

S1 - A great beginning for me. A nice introduction to the two brothers and their differing opinions and their working to get to know each other again was believable for me.

S7 - Some really good stuff for me. Some of the best opening eps for me of the series. I liked Hallucifer Sam, and I loved the brothers' relationship here. Also some of my favorite recurring characters: Frank, Dick Roman, Chet, multiple Jody appearances, Lucifer, Death.

S6 - Agree with SueB - I liked creepy, soulless Sam and the second part of the season ended strongly for me with lots of rewatchable * episodes. Loved where the brothers were for the second half of the season. I loved caring Dean here and sweet, grateful Sam. So, ironically even though we had two Sams this season, I liked them both a lot. I enjoyed smart, intuitive Dean that we got almost all of this season - he figured out Sam wasn't Sam, he knew Samuel was off, he figured out how to save Sam, and he figured out how to kill Eve. He didn't know about Castiel, but I was also surprised at the Crowley/Castiel twist, so... And I loved the finale ep. One of my most favorite Kripke episodes.

S3 - Slow start and bummer ending, but some of my most favorite episodes - almost put it at #5, but Ruby and Bela knock it down a bit for me.

S10 - Oh, this started out so great for me. Like SueB, I enjoyed Dean's storyline and I liked Sam here, but I didn't like the secrets and lies or the anvilicious return of stupid Sam starts another apocalypse. *Sigh*

S4 - Some really good episodes here, but sooooo much angst and pain. Didn't like the added brother angst. I was okay with Sam going dark, but they went too far with it for me in terms of making Sam unnecessarily nasty to Dean. They seemed too in my face with the good brother / bad brother stuff and with the piling on of baddness on Dean. I felt like the season took on more than it could handle, and so some things suffered for it. knocked down a notch on rethink, because there are some great episodes, but also some I hate.

S9 - See season 10, except instead of stupid Sam, the set up was tarnished for me with the need to make Sam uncharacteristically unforgiving and a jerk for angst reasons. I wanted to enjoy Dean's storyline, but I again felt like there was a piling on Dean thing going on here. He not only had to feel guilty and have effects from the mark but also Sam acting completely crappy towards him. Sam's role in this season was to be a meatsuit and/or pout for about 20 episodes and then fail to save Dean. Again. Some good episodes were lost in the overall angst mess.

S8 - A definite last place for me by a longshot. Hated the stupid and pointless Amelia storyline. The forced brother angst was way over the top. The potentially interesting purgatory storyline somehow got turned into a Dean has no self-esteem thing. Even the trials storyline was ultimately pointless. I got whiplash half way through the season when it seemed like the first half was seemingly forgotten, but at least it wasn't as bad as that first half. That's not saying much though. This was just awful for me. It took me all of one episode to miss Sera Gamble, and with the exception of a handful of episodes, I felt the same way at the end of the season.

 

I guess the underlying theme for me here was that in general, I most enjoyed the seasons where I liked the Sam and Dean relationship and where any conflict between them seemed organic rather than forced.

 

* What does my spell check mean that's not a word? Well, it totally should be one.

 

Edited to add: I already changed my mind and switched the position of two seasons. This is haaaard.

Edited June 20, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

For me the show separates in the good Seasons:

 

1. Season 4 - best pacing and tightest storyline with even the fillers contributing to the arc, also the seal-breaking build up a nice sense of supsense, storylines for both characters,

 

2. Season 2 - while Dean didn`t have a storyline here (I don`t count emo stuff), he nevertheless had a significant presence and while the psykids thing wasn`t my taste, lots of individual episodes were very good here

 

3. Season 1 - a good introduction to the world and the characters and the best depiction of their relationship by far

 

 

and the bad Seasons:

 

4. Season 3 - at the time if originally aired, I found it to be atrociously bad and on its own, I still don`t particularly care for it but in comparism to what came later, it`s way less bad now so it climbs by default

 

5. Season 5 - it started out well but flipped around the middle into horribly bad, the ending is still my most hated TV episode of all time

 

6. Seasons 9 and 10 - it gets points for Dean having an actual story, even if the execution of it was lackluster and disappointing, the show just lacks charme and fun overall, in the earlier Seasons the writing was bad but at least charming, if I had to put them in order I will place 10 before 9 because of the Gadreel mess in the first half of 9

 

 

and the worse Seasons:

 

7. Season 8 - started out well and flipped in the middle into atrociously bad

 

8. Season 6 and 7 - I`ll mesh them together again because to me they were equally bad in different ways, some interesting plot ideas but going from offensive to boring to annoying and back again, and once again, I don`t even know why Dean was in those Seasons to begin with.

[DittyDotDot]

Mine are mostly broke up into blocks of what I look forward to watching most. I generally don't get too caught up in the big myths of the season as I tend to enjoy the show most when the big arcs are mostly uncomplicated and Sam and Dean are a united force.

 

S2: Overall the most episodes I look forward to re-watching. Only one or two I tend to either not pay attention to or skip altogether.

S3: Uneven, but I love the kinda trippy nature of the episodes and some of my very favorite episodes reside here.

S1: Nice introduction with some good atmospheric episodes, suffers a bit from New Showitis, though.

 

S4: Big shakeup in mythology with quite a few good episodes, but over time, I just don't look forward to seeing most of them again. Probably the most even season with regards to the execution of the big arcs, though.

S7: Some very good episodes inner mixed with quite a bit of meh. I really enjoyed the Leviathans, until I didn't, but Sam and Dean were a proactive unit for the most part.

S6: First half really works well for me, second is just ok. Enjoyed some of the ideas, just not always the execution held up.

S5: Lots of great episodes, but as a whole it kinda depresses me to think about.

 

S10: At least there was a period when Sam and Dean weren't bickering, fairly lackluster and nonsensical, though.

S8: It started out confusing, but showed promise. Proceeded to just be more and more frustrating as the season wore on.

S9: Poorly executed, totally lackluster and mostly nonsensical.

[amensisterfriend]

Do you ever ask other people a question and then realize you can't even manage to answer it yourself?! That's kind of where I am here, but I'm loving everyone's responses and will try to add my own. And what sadist insisted that no ties were allowed?! Oh. Right... :) 

 

1. S3: I get why this ranks fairly low on many people's lists, but it contains 2-3 of my five very favorite and most frequently rewatched episodes, and somehow even the season's mediocre episodes work better for me than they seem to for most. I'm also that one fan who really enjoyed Bela. I don't know...this one just really resonates with me, and unlike much of SPN, it actually improves for me over time---especially in contrast to most of what followed it! 

 

2. S1: As Ditty noted, it sometimes suffers from clunky, awkward New Show-itis and probably features fewer of my all-time favorites than S3, but it's the most mercifully fun, angst-free season and, most importantly, arguably features the brothers and their relationship with each other at their very most likable for me.  

 

3. S2: This used to be my very favorite, and maybe one day it will be again, but somehow it doesn't hold up quite as well with rewatches for me, and certain storylines bug me more than they probably should. Maybe my expectations of this season are always so high that I'm bound to be a bit disappointed...?That said, this one has some really stellar episodes and still enough of S1's 'endless road trip/saving people and hunting things!' feel to earn it a permanent place in my heart. 

 

4. S7: Yeah...I know. I have strange taste! It just happens to have a lot of individual episodes that I really like. I love the semi-return to MotWs and, despite this season's many (many, MANY!) missteps, it recaptures at least some of that classic, vintage SPN feel for me. 

 

...See, this is where I find myself wishing we could do ties...maybe even a six-way tie, since all the remaining ones have more downs than ups for me and in surprisingly equal measure! But I'll go with...

 

5. S4: Objectively. I think this is a well-crafted season and probably among the show's 2-3 'best'---I just happen not to enjoy watching it :) I'm ranking it higher than the others that remain because it has some pretty stellar scenes and ideas while featuring some of the best acting of the series, but it depresses me far more than it entertains me. As someone who finds that liking Sam greatly enhances my viewing experience, I kind of hate how much I disliked him for much of this season. And I'm just not a demons/angel/end-of-the-woooorld fan...not then, and definitely not now after so many variations of more or less the same refrain! 

 

6. S6: It's not very good. I totally get that. And I am definitely not someone one who developed any sort of attachment to Lisa or even Ben. But this season had some really interesting ideas  even though the execution was often sadly lacking. And as warped as I realize this makes me, I enjoyed the heck out of Soulless Sam :) 

 

7. S5: The vast majority of SPN fans I know name this as among the series' very best, but it just doesn't work me. Points for Sam being (mostly!) more likable and root-worthy for me here than he was in S4, but this one has surprisingly few episodes that I like, and even the ostensibly 'best' episodes don't make my list of all-time favorites. This was just way too lofty and 'trying-ever-so-hard-to-be-EPIC' a season for my taste, and for me it fell short more often than not---have I mentioned that I think SPN is at its best when it has a slightly smaller scope and more intimate feel?!

 

8.  S10---This may rise in my rankings eventually, but right now I'm feeling kind of bitter that a season which initially had a lot of potential IMO and a few surprisingly enjoyable episodes went so awry. After Fan Fiction, which I loved, I was ready to crown this the best post-S4 season (other than S7, to which I'm oddly attached!), but I fell rapidly out of love with it.

 

9. S8--Though I actually liked it A LITTLE more when I rewatched parts of it a few months ago..but that's not saying much! 

 

10. S9 --- I can never even remember this season, and for that I feel somewhat fortunate :) 

Edited June 20, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[AwesomO4000]

4. S7: Yeah...I know. I have strange taste! It just happens to have a lot of individual episodes that I really like. I love the semi-return to MotWs and, despite this season's many (many, MANY!) missteps, it recaptures at least some of that classic, vintage SPN feel for me.

 

Not strange to me at all. ; ) This was also my #4. And I agree about the "vintage" feel.

 

5. S4: Objectively. I think this is a well-crafted season and probably among the show's 2-3 'best'---I just happen not to enjoy watching it :) I'm ranking it higher than the others that remain because it has some pretty stellar scenes and ideas while featuring some of the best acting of the series, but it depresses me far more than it entertains me. As someone who finds that liking Sam greatly enhances my viewing experience, I kind of hate how much I disliked him for much of this season. And I'm just not a demons/angel/end-of-the-woooorld fan...not then, and definitely not now after so many variations of more or less the same refrain!

 

I feel this way about season 4 as well. I get that this is a superior season in some ways to some of the other seasons that I have ahead of it on my list, I just don't  get much enjoyment out of it. Especially from repeated viewings. It's sort of like Saving Private Ryan. I understand that it's a good movie. I just didn't really enjoy watching it or enjoy what it made me feel while I was watching it. Even though I enjoyed season 4 of SPN much more than Saving Private Ryan, it's sort of the Saving Private Ryan season in that some of it is just too intense and too depressing for me to enjoy even when I know objectively it's of good quality.

[SueB]

Amensister-

Months ago you wanted people to identify their favorite funny episode, we've listed all the funny episodes people could think of and are voting for favorite right now in the Survival Game.  Click "Rock, Paper, Scissors" link and find us there.

Edited June 22, 2015 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

So, I've been sitting here, trying to figure out why it seems like the females get killed off at a greater rate than the males.  I did some highly unscientific research and crunched the numbers.  But first, my definitions:

 

Recurring character -- appears in more than two episodes

Returning character -- confirmation that the character will appear again

Alive -- as far as the audience knows, the character is alive but not returning at this time

Dead -- fairly self-explanatory

 

Okie dokie, here we go:

 

67 recurring cast members

 

41 recurring male characters (61% of total cast)

26 recurring female characters  (39% of total cast)

 

29 of 41 male characters dead  (70%)

18 of 26 female characters dead  (69%)

 

So where is the disconnect?  Why does it seem like more female characters die?

 

I think that since the show has fewer female characters, it seems as though each death has a larger impact.  For example, when Charlie died, my gut reaction was, "We've got 5 males and 2 females and you're killing one of them?!?!"  Technically, Jody is still a recurring character, but since she wasn't involved in the current mythology, it's easy to forget she's still around, I think.  Same with Claire -- she might show up again, but she's not part of the main story.  Who knows if Kate or Krissy or Donna will ever show up again?

 

Perception is a funny thing, huh?

[Diane]

So, I've been sitting here, trying to figure out why it seems like the females get killed off at a greater rate than the males.  I did some highly unscientific research and crunched the numbers.  But first, my definitions:

 

Recurring character -- appears in more than two episodes

Returning character -- confirmation that the character will appear again

Alive -- as far as the audience knows, the character is alive but not returning at this time

Dead -- fairly self-explanatory

 

Okie dokie, here we go:

 

67 recurring cast members

 

41 recurring male characters (61% of total cast)

26 recurring female characters  (39% of total cast)

 

29 of 41 male characters dead  (70%)

18 of 26 female characters dead  (69%)

 

So where is the disconnect?  Why does it seem like more female characters die?

 

I think that since the show has fewer female characters, it seems as though each death has a larger impact.  For example, when Charlie died, my gut reaction was, "We've got 5 males and 2 females and you're killing one of them?!?!"  Technically, Jody is still a recurring character, but since she wasn't involved in the current mythology, it's easy to forget she's still around, I think.  Same with Claire -- she might show up again, but she's not part of the main story.  Who knows if Kate or Krissy or Donna will ever show up again?

 

Perception is a funny thing, huh?

That really is interesting.  But then I didn't understand the outrage when they killed off Charlie, she annoyed me every time she was on.  I was certainly more shocked that they killed Bobby. JMO.

[DittyDotDot]

I've always said I thought they killed everyone, not only women. Nice to know I have statical proof to point to now!

 

I didn't really care that they killed Charlie, but I didn't care for the way they killed her. It only led to more melodrama that I think is already far too much on this show anyway.

[Wynterwolf]

Very interesting Demented Daisy!  And go you with the data collection!  Analytics are always fascinating. I wonder how those numbers would be affected if you changed your definition of "recurring" to more than four eps, or if you broke it down further for each gender as a 'friend' or 'foe'.