All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[DittyDotDot]

I do agree with some of your complaints, but I feel like they've taken Dean to a lot of places in the last few seasons that Kripke should have taken him to long ago, but never bothered. And I just keep hoping maybe something good will come out of it.

 

Complaints? Sorry if my diatribe came off as complaining, they were just observations about how I think the show has changed over the years. Granted, I preferred some things than I do now, but I hope if I ever get to the point of actually complaining, I just stop watching the show.

[Pete Martell]

I didn't mean it in a negative way. I see many of us as having complaints. To me it's just a natural part of being invested in a show. I'm sorry for the word choice.

[rue721]

I'm just not sure that the TPTB really see them as grown men as much as perpetual boys. I think this is one reason why I'm more forgiving of the Gamble years than I have been of Carver. Gamble had a propensity for the 12-year-old humor in her plots--9 million Dick jokes ring a bell?--but I think Sam and Dean were far more adult under her reign than they've ever been since.

 

I agree, though I'm not sure that they seem like young boys per se so much as they aren't written as though they have internal lives anymore. That's where their current lack of sophistication (in terms of problem solving, or even humor, imo) comes from, I think -- a lack of interiority on the part of the characters. It seems now like unless something is (ham-handedly) conveyed through the writing or (melodramatically) expressed on screen, we're supposed to assume that Sam and Dean themselves don't think/know/feel anything about it. Back in S6 and S7, though, I did still feel as though they had internal lives.

 

Personally, I also really liked a lot of the personal arcs during S6 and S7. I didn't feel that the characters were retreading old ground (actually, I think there were too many ideas jam-packed into those seasons. Imo, a lot of those ideas were actually good/interesting but they needed more room to breathe than they got) and I felt more connected to both Sam's and Dean's points of view in those seasons than I did during many others -- definitely more than I do now. I felt more connected to Sam's perspective in those seasons than I maybe did at *any* other time. 

 

Maybe I'm the only one who was genuinely interested in the Ben and Lisa story, but I did think that it was interesting, to have Dean be handed basically the life he'd wished for back in S2 and to have hunting seep in and ruin it again -- but imo this time hunting kept seeping into that life through Dean himself, not through a genie or anything supernatural, which is why making Ben and Lisa forget him was the way to save them from the supernatural/hunting/that life. I liked that whole arc, it didn't seem old hat to me, it felt like evolution and Dean learning about himself imo. YMMV. This is very sappy, but speaking of that storyline, I also thought one of the most heartbreaking and interesting scenes in the series was when Dean apologized to Lisa for acting like "a prison guard" in Two and a Half Men. But everyone knows I find John and Dean's relationship fascinating, so of course I would say that, lol.

 

I also genuinely liked the creeping nightmare of Soulless Sam seeming more and more monstrous ad the first half of S6 went on. Sam's storyline in S7 worked really well for me as a concept and in terms of JP's acting, too, though sometimes the execution of what was going on with Lucifer himself was off. But I *loved* Sam's storyline in Repo Man, that was some real horror. In general, I liked how in both S6 and S7, it did seem like over the course of a storyline -- an episode, a mytharc, whatever -- veneers would just slowly get peeled off and whatever was underneath was usually pretty horrible. Like Soulless Sam slowly revealing his soullessness, or Grampa Campbell's character arc, or Dean being Man of the House, or Cas colluding with Crowley, or Sam's dilemma over not knowing what's real. Even though Sam's arc in S7 wasn't a realistic portrayal of mental illness really at all (though props to JP himself because I think his performance was the most realistic aspect of it), I really liked how the show flipped the old chestnuts of "it's was all a dream!" or "[main character] is really insane and imagining all this!" on their heads by having Sam himself suspecting those things were the case, even though we the audience knew they weren't true within the world of the show. That's what I mean about the show having interesting ideas -- but too many of them, to the point that they kind of suffocated each other.

 

I think that S6 and S7 were more about "real life" fears and horrors, but because I find the fears/horrors that the show was exploring at that point legitimately scary, that really worked for me. I mean "real life" fears/horrors like:  "you're doomed to become your parents!" "you're insane and utterly disconnected from the real world!" "the decisions made by and for you as a child will dictate the rest of your life!" "you carry Hell within you, so you'll never escape it!" "the only life you know how to live is a crappy one!" "you're the monster that's scaring them!" "the 'person' you think you know or even love is just a mask/shell/lie!" etc. That stuff is for real frightening, I was happy to see the show dealing with scary shit like that instead of trying to get viewers worked up over fears about Wendigos (though I love urban legends, too, tbh) or even about angels and the word of God.

 

To me, sex jokes and or horndoggy behavior aren't a signs of immaturity. Of course context can make them so, but I've never really thought Dean was immature because he has a healthy love of the carnal.

 

IA that that stuff isn't immature. Other than the apparent Asian fetish, which I hate for its own reasons, when the show brings up porn it tends to gross me out because it seems like personal bodily function stuff that I don't really want to hear about. Obviously it's fine and normal to beat off, but as a viewer I really don't need to be up on the minutia of it, like exactly what videos/magazines/whatever anyone likes, just like I don't need to know about the characters' bowel movements or dental work. (Though I do find myself wondering about workout regimes, tbh). That's maybe on the prudish end of the spectrum but eh. I'm also not big on stuff where Dean's acting like a creeper, like when he's talking about some teenager being hot or ogling/leering at women. That's not immature, either, but I find it obnoxious and verging too close to being predatory. Probably because I personally don't like being on the other side of that behavior and being ogled at that way, so YMMV. On the other hand, I usually like the stuff that's more directly related to dating or actually hooking up with a specific person. That scene when Sam and Dean are at a restaurant discussing Dean's Tinder profile, etc, was the most charming that Dean's been all this season, imo.

[Pete Martell]

Maybe I'm the only one who was genuinely interested in the Ben and Lisa story, but I did think that it was interesting, to have Dean be handed basically the life he'd wished for back in S2 and to have hunting seep in and ruin it again -- but imo this time hunting kept seeping into that life through Dean himself, not through a genie or anything supernatural, which is why making Ben and Lisa forget him was the way to save them from the supernatural/hunting/that life. I liked that whole arc, it didn't seem old hat to me, it felt like evolution and Dean learning about himself imo. YMMV. This is very sappy, but speaking of that storyline, I also thought one of the most heartbreaking and interesting scenes in the series was when Dean apologized to Lisa for acting like "a prison guard" in Two and a Half Men. But everyone knows I find John and Dean's relationship fascinating, so of course I would say that, lol.

 

I also genuinely liked the creeping nightmare of Soulless Sam seeming more and more monstrous ad the first half of S6 went on. 

 

If they'd given Dean a life similar to the one he had in the djinn episode in season 2 (a fun-but-serious relationship with a woman, maybe a mother figure who was close to him but also wary of him, estrangement from Sam), I might have been interested (and they could have done this with Ellen and Jo if they hadn't been killed off for yet more shock value over supporting characters biting the dust as our heroes cry pretty tears of manpain), or if they'd reunited him with Cassie I might have been interested, but I just didn't believe Dean really wanted a suburban life. Lisa was shoehorned into the end of season 5 after Dean hadn't mentioned her in years, and was then pushed into this role, a role he wasn't ready for, a role that Lisa (who seemed very independent and rightfully cautious about Dean in her first appearance) would likely not have put her young son in the firing line of. To me, in order to tell this story, Lisa was reduced to nothing more than another object for Dean to lose, another example of how Dean must always be alone and unhappy. They also truncated the story so quickly (splitting in episode 2 with a few breakup scenes down the road that all basically said the same thing over and over) that it felt like something they regretted doing. 

 

I felt like that and Cas' betrayal mostly amounted to reminding us, yet again, that Dean could only ever have Sam, which had also been the main point of the end of season 5. And this is one of the main reasons I lost a lot of interest in their relationship (along with the way it was destroyed in season 4), because if TPTB keep telling me they literally cannot have anyone else and must be together, they're not saying this is a relationship based on loving or caring or strength. Instead it's just clinging to the shreds of a life; it's a defensive, depressing default.

 

I also thought the idea of them being mindwiped saving them was incredibly stupid, because given Dean's very limited friends in the hunting community, I have no idea who would even be keeping an eye on them. Any random monster could attack them and they'd have absolutely zero way of protecting themselves or contacting anyone who could protect them. The only way I could handwave it is if I just pretend Ben and Lisa never existed, and I resent the show for making me do that.

 

Soulless Sam is an idea that was very clever, but the inconsistency of it just make me feel like I was watching a series of badfics Jared was acting out. Soulless Sam is evil and doesn't care about Dean! Wait, he does care, just in his own way! He's so scary! Wait, he's actually really really sad! It's awful that he left Dean on his own! Wait, it's actually hilarious...he'd rather get laid and joke about his brother getting raped, what a cutup! He treats women horribly, what an ass! Wait, he's so hot prostitutes do it for free!

 

If Gamble had had someone to help her with Sam's stories, I think they could have worked. Dean's...I think they were only created to punish Dean and to reinforce lessons he'd learned about 5 times by that point, so I'm not sure I ever could have accepted the Ben and Lisa regurgitation, especially since it left him so stranded storywise that they had to whip up an Amazon teenage daughter to gun down.

 

If they'd kept Lisa and Ben around for a longer period of time and really shown Dean genuinely torn, I also could have supported that. It's just the way it was done - the sheer miserable nothingness of it all - that soured me.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[DittyDotDot]

rue721, on 26 Jan 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

Personally, I also really liked a lot of the personal arcs during S6 and S7. I didn't feel that the characters were retreading old ground (actually, I think there were too many ideas jam-packed into those seasons. Imo, a lot of those ideas were actually good/interesting but they needed more room to breathe than they got) and I felt more connected to both Sam's and Dean's points of view in those seasons than I did during many others -- definitely more than I do now. I felt more connected to Sam's perspective in those seasons than I maybe did at *any* other time. 

 

[...]

 

I think that S6 and S7 were more about "real life" fears and horrors, but because I find the fears/horrors that the show was exploring at that point legitimately scary, that really worked for me. I mean "real life" fears/horrors like:  "you're doomed to become your parents!" "you're insane and utterly disconnected from the real world!" "the decisions made by and for you as a child will dictate the rest of your life!" "you carry Hell within you, so you'll never escape it!" "the only life you know how to live is a crappy one!" "you're the monster that's scaring them!" "the 'person' you think you know or even love is just a mask/shell/lie!" etc. That stuff is for real frightening, I was happy to see the show dealing with scary shit like that instead of trying to get viewers worked up over fears about Wendigos (though I love urban legends, too, tbh) or even about angels and the word of God.

 

This is exactly why I liked a lot of S6 and S7, the show once again felt more intimate and personal; not quite as intimate as it did in S1 and S2 before the fate of the entire world came crashing in on Sam and Dean, though. I know a lot of people feel the show was more impersonal under Gamble because the myth arcs weren't centered directly around either Sam or Dean, but I felt like the show was very personal in those years. And, the show says it's doing personal journeys this season, but I don't feel the intimacy with them as I did throughout S6 and S7. I don't know how to explain it.

 

Also, I've never been into the B-horror/slasher/gory/jump scare stuff that seems to be what most folks think of as horror, but am legitimately drawn to the more mind-bending/disturbing/scary horror. The more grounded horror is, the more frightening it is to me. So, the gory elements of the show rarely scare me as much as they have me giggling at them. Sometimes they do gross me out, though. I felt like S6 and S7 went back to that more grounded and frightening place that drew me to the show in the first place. Granted it was still pretty horror-light, though.

 

Anyway, you weren't the only one interested in Lisa and Ben's story, I just wish they had done it better. But, like you said, there were just too many ideas floating around in the Gamble years.  What's kinda funny is I think the episodes are way over-packed with plot since Carver took over. Gamble seemed to over-pack her seasons with too many ideas, but sometimes the episodes themselves didn't have much packed in them. I wonder if the lesson the show learned from Gamble was to add more things in to make the episodes "exciting", but in the end they went too far, and now they're kinda overwhelming which leaves me wondering if anything really happened in the end. I sometimes think the show could've benefited from a Carver/Gamble co-showrunner thing. They both have strengths and weaknesses that I think would compliment each other. Sorry tangent.

 

I agree, though I'm not sure that they seem like young boys per se so much as they aren't written as though they have internal lives anymore. That's where their current lack of sophistication (in terms of problem solving, or even humor, imo) comes from, I think -- a lack of interiority on the part of the characters. It seems now like unless something is (ham-handedly) conveyed through the writing or (melodramatically) expressed on screen, we're supposed to assume that Sam and Dean themselves don't think/know/feel anything about it. Back in S6 and S7, though, I did still feel as though they had internal lives.

 

The show isn't allowed to breath anymore, but is over-packed with exposition and monologues that aren't at all needed, IMO. They used to let scenes play with little to no dialogue and trust the actors to convey and the audience to follow along. I used to revel in the quiet moments where I had a moment to think or just enjoy how beautifully they framed and shot something. I think this is the biggest contributor to them not feeling like they're having internal lives anymore, we rarely linger with any of the characters if they aren't yammering on.

 

But, I'm weird and never agree with those adorable kids on the Verizon commercials...more is not more nor is it better, IMO. ;)

[catrox14]

I do think s9 they started allowing the scenes to play out more slowly and with a bit less schtick than s8 with the  actors doing the work that is not on the page. LIke in Mother's Little Helper they lingered on Jensen with very little dialogue and it really felt like old school SPN. Jensen sitting at the bar in First Born he was somewhere else and that was before he took on the Mark.  It was maybe a slower burn than I would have liked but he still was burning IMO. 

 

I didn't really appreciate it on first viewing but watching the episodes in a binge fashion on Netflix gave me a better appreciation for how good Jensen was with how Dean changed. And of course his demon!Dean was terrific. I think this year Jared is doing much more internal stuff like he did in s4. I still get tripped up on whether Sam is supposed to be compassionate or judgmental but I do think Jared has been really good this season.  I'm not sure what's different but I like it . But the problem is that instead of trusting that we will get the whole monsters vs humanity thing just by watching Dean and Sam we get stupid plots that just beat us over the head with the obvious parallels.  I wish the writers would have more faith in the viewers to get it. But I think they are falling prey to the notion of over exposition so that newbies can catch up BUT that is at the expense of 9 years of mythology and character development.  In some ways they dumbed down the show but then bring on someone like Metatron to bloviate and tell the story instead of you know showing us the story.  LIke even in the torture scene with Metatron, the were both the exposition fairies telling all about why Dean wanted to rip Metatron apart, which thank gods they were both good at it, but I'm like "WE KNOW ". 

 

I always think about Kripke's rant at the Paley Fest in 2011 about how in the pilot Dean and Sam are telling each other about the thing they both grew up and what Dad did and how it was nothing two people would ever really say to each other and how he wanted one of the boys to just look at the other one and say "I KNOW. I was there. Why are you telling me this?"

[Pete Martell]

I always think about Kripke's rant at the Paley Fest in 2011 about how in the pilot Dean and Sam are telling each other about the thing they both grew up and what Dad did and how it was nothing two people would ever really say to each other and how he wanted one of the boys to just look at the other one and say "I KNOW. I was there. Why are you telling me this?"

 

I find that ironic, given that Kripke loved to do clumsy dialogue and parallels (my favorite will always be poor Barry Bostwick having to bellow, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO KILL YOUR BROTHER????"), which has dogged the show long after his departure.

  I wish the writers would have more faith in the viewers to get it. But I think they are falling prey to the notion of over exposition so that newbies can catch up BUT that is at the expense of 9 years of mythology and character development. 

 

I don't think they're doing it just for new viewers. I think it's a crutch they can't get rid of. It's also something I'd blame on season 3 (one of many things), because that's where it first seemed to tip over into clumsiness. They had parallels and such in the first few seasons, but the first that truly derailed a scene for me was in Gordon's last episode, when that whiny vampire whose "daughters" had been slaughtered by Gordon weeped and wailed to Sam and Dean about LOSING YOUR FAMILY and GOING TO HELL and whatever else. 

 

Sam and Dean have been dodging anvils ever since.

 

The exposition has gotten bad but I think it mostly depends on the writer. This writing team is just clumsy and formulaic by nature.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[catrox14]

 

I find that ironic, given that Kripke loved to do clumsy dialogue and parallels (my favorite will always be poor Barry Bostwick having to bellow, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO KILL YOUR BROTHER????"), which has dogged the show long after his departure.

 

Well that was his point. He was lamenting that it is terrible and he hates doing it. But  it's part of the territory when writing anything that has serialization to one degree or another. He said some director always wanted to have camels humping in the background so people have something to watch whilst the exposition is happening. Jensen went on to say how grateful he was that they decided to start giving most of the exposition to guest actors. LOL.

 

My point is that I think the show is doing a lot more exposition now than before but that could be because it was a return from a Hellatus and they wanted to catch people up but they just had the Road So Far so I didn't understand why Metadouche and Dean had to talk about it all over again LOL. 

 

oh wait, yeah I do. They needed Metadouche to tell Dean what a monster he is by trying to push his crap onto Dean.  Oh show. Please dump the Nepotism  Duo and back up the truck to get Edlund back.  I'm fine with Thompson and Glass and Dabb and even Jenny Klein

Edited January 26, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I do think s9 they started allowing the scenes to play out more slowly and with a bit less schtick than s8 with the  actors doing the work that is not on the page.

 

Oh, I do think they're doing better so far this season, but they still don't trust their audience to understand what's going on. For instance, there was the nice scene of Dean sitting on his bed feeling the Mark and thinking in The Hunter Games, but then they cut up the scene to show us blips of flashbacks to the previous episode's massacre. The scene lost its impact for me being cut up like that. If they had just lingered on Dean and trusted the audience didn't need to be hand-held through the whole scene, I think it would've been stellar, but in the end it was rather meh, to me.

[Pete Martell]

Well that was his point. He was lamenting that it is terrible and he hates doing it. But  it's part of the territory when writing anything that has serialization to one degree or another. He said some director always wanted to have camels humping in the background so people have something to watch whilst the exposition is happening. Jensen went on to say how grateful he was that they decided to start giving most of the exposition to guest actors. LOL.

 

My point is that I think the show is doing a lot more exposition now than before but that could be because it was a return from a Hellatus and they wanted to catch people up but they just had the Road So Far so I didn't understand why Metadouche and Dean had to talk about it all over again LOL. 

 

oh wait, yeah I do. They needed Metadouche to tell Dean what a monster he is by trying to push his crap onto Dean.  Oh show. Please dump the Nepotism  Duo and back up the truck to get Edlund back.  I'm fine with Thompson and Glass and Dabb and even Jenny Klein

 

I think shows like this do need repetition and can't have too much subtlety, but it doesn't have to be as clumsy as he became, especially in being too explicit about some things and too vague about others (Sam's characterization). Unfortunately the writers he left behind seem to remember his worst.

 

I don't think Edlund will come back, and by the end he seemed very checked out (making that huge continuity error in his final episode). I wouldn't mind if he popped in every once in a while, with Klein and B&RL to go.

Oh, I do think they're doing better so far this season, but they still don't trust their audience to understand what's going on. For instance, there was the nice scene of Dean sitting on his bed feeling the Mark and thinking in The Hunter Games, but then they cut up the scene to show us blips of flashbacks to the previous episode's massacre. The scene lost its impact for me being cut up like that. If they had just lingered on Dean and trusted the audience didn't need to be hand-held through the whole scene, I think it would've been stellar, but in the end it was rather meh, to me.

 

I agree, but then I remember "Captives" last season, which had the scenes of Dean on his bed, wearing the headphones, which I thought was a great way to show how isolated he was and was wonderful work from Jensen, only to go online and keep hearing people say these scenes were boring and pointless, and who cared. So if they get that type of mixed message, I'm not surprised they (especially the Singer types) keep dumbing it down.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Pete Martell

[DittyDotDot]

I agree, but then I remember "Captives" last season, which had the scenes of Dean on his bed, wearing the headphones, which I thought was a great way to show how isolated he was and was wonderful work from Jensen, only to go online and keep hearing people say these scenes were boring and pointless, and who cared. So if they get that type of mixed message, I'm not surprised they (especially the Singer types) keep dumbing it down.

 

I guess I'd tell them to stop trying to please everyone and decide what show THEY want and do it. Either cut the quiet scenes altogether or do 'em right. If they want to be all action and talking, then do that. Stop trying to middle-ground everything, it only bastardizes their own show in the end. They are never going to please everyone, no matter what they do, but if they commit and really do it, I'd have a great deal more respect for them.

[catrox14]

I really hated Swan Song so very much but Kripke did what he wanted to do. Sam got the shaft in s8 character wise IMO but in one regard I give Carver credit for sticking to his guns and it seemed like it was going somewhere and even when they had Sam give up the trials which I thought okay great, it was brother choosing brother over death this time. But then they threw it away with the entire premiere of s9 and OOPS Sam really did want to die just to set up the Dark!Dean SL. Even so at least they did SOMETHING and stuck with the arc even if I loathed the outcome, And now I'm equally annoyed that because they wanted a fanservicing/fan celebration for the 200th they threw away a really great arc prematurely.  I just figure surely there was some way for them to have made that episode like a flashback episode to before Dean became a demon. That bugs me to no end.

 

Heck they could have even used it with demon!Dean. He could have been sent to that school by Crowley to kill the teacher that disappeared, not realizing that the teacher was already missing. Sam is there investigating the disappearance. They both watch the play from different sides of the auditorium. Maybe demon!Dean just watches it and it starts him thinking about his life. Neither sees the other one until the play is over.  Maybe Sam sees Dean leave because there is no one to kill so he follows Dean back to wherever Dean has been.  Cole in the meanwhile is still following Sam. End of episode. We could have had all the happy stuff from the play. I dunno. Just my musings.

[rue721]

This is exactly why I liked a lot of S6 and S7, the show once again felt more intimate and personal; not quite as intimate as it did in S1 and S2 before the fate of the entire world came crashing in on Sam and Dean, though.

 

I agree, it did feel more intimate. Bringing in Yellow Eyes and referring back to the pilot so heavily felt like a mission statement on the part of Gamble & Co. In general, I think that Gamble & Co. made a serious effort to make the show more character-driven again. Even though that wasn't entirely successful, I appreciated the effort and it wasn't entirely *un*successful, either imo.

 

Aside from S6/7's actual problems w/r/t execution and management/editing, a big part of what hamstrung S6, imo, was how Kripke decided to go out in S5. He made it clear he envisioned Swan Song as a series finale. It seemed to me like he was only just shying away from straight up declaring, "l'état, c'est moi!" about SPN. That's a *terrible* way to pass the torch. I think that predisposed people who cared about Kripke/his vision of the show against S6.

 

Oh, I do think they're doing better so far this season, but they still don't trust their audience to understand what's going on. For instance, there was the nice scene of Dean sitting on his bed feeling the Mark and thinking in The Hunter Games, but then they cut up the scene to show us blips of flashbacks to the previous episode's massacre. The scene lost its impact for me being cut up like that. If they had just lingered on Dean and trusted the audience didn't need to be hand-held through the whole scene, I think it would've been stellar, but in the end it was rather meh, to me.

 

I completely agree. The over-explaining of every little thing is counterproductive. A story is no fun unless you (the audience) have to work *a little.*

 

Somewhere or other I heard that when you're writing a story, what you need to do first is let the readers sniff out that they're missing part of the story, then you have to make them really *want* to know what that missing piece is, and only *then* can you actually reveal that missing piece -- and hopefully that now-revealed missing piece at least hints at other missing pieces that pique the readers' curiosity, too. In a way, it's a seduction.

 

Imagination and curiosity is part of storytelling, if you don't let the audience use their imaginations at least a *bit* you're going to suffocate the life out of a story or a character. I think that's what the show is doing right now -- and imo they *have* improved, but the stories and characters are still over-explained and therefore feel relatively lifeless.

 

I agree, but then I remember "Captives" last season, which had the scenes of Dean on his bed, wearing the headphones, which I thought was a great way to show how isolated he was and was wonderful work from Jensen, only to go online and keep hearing people say these scenes were boring and pointless, and who cared. So if they get that type of mixed message, I'm not surprised they (especially the Singer types) keep dumbing it down.

 

I really liked seeing Dean just chilling in his room listening to music, too! Surprised that people found it boring, there was a grand total of maybe 30 seconds of that in the whole episode. That kind of thing humanizes the characters for me.

 

This is *so* minor but one of my favorite scenes in S8 Is when Sam and Dean go to a farmer's market and Sam is acting like "oh yeah, I'm TOTALLY into farmers' markets now! OMG you don't know about farmer's markets? Pffffft do you live under a rock?!" and chowing down on that apple like it's going out of style. And you could see Dean actually buying Sam's bullshit and thinking, "oh shit, are farmers' markets a thing now?!" LOL that cracks me up. Yes, guys, the New Hotness is farmers' markets, aka that place where you can buy "the good milk." LOL. Such dorks.

 

I love seeing the guys just trying to live their lives, or other characters just trying to live theirs. It makes the world of the show and the characters' personalities much less claustrophobic imo -- I prefer when it seems like the monster stuff lurks at the fringes of the regular world rather than when the monster stuff seems to make up the ENTIRE world of the show or the characters' lives.

[catrox14]

I thought that scene of Dean listening to music was riveting. The opening was Dean IMO just enjoying the music. But it also showed him sort of to himself which raised my eyebrows. He's starting to withdraw, which is weird because Dean is such a social animal. But by the end he decides to have it out with Sam and Sam has already walked away. Then when Dean goes back to his room, he's different. To me, he had made a decision to stop trying with Sam and it was on his face. I loved it those scenes.

[DittyDotDot]

I love seeing the guys just trying to live their lives, or other characters just trying to live theirs. It makes the world of the show and the characters' personalities much less claustrophobic imo -- I prefer when it seems like the monster stuff lurks at the fringes of the regular world rather than when the monster stuff seems to make up the ENTIRE world of the show or the characters' lives.

 

Oh yeah! I loved the many scenes at outside cafes in S1 and S2--even when they'd stop for gas and have a chat--or doing their laundry in Monster At The End Of This Book or the few scenes we've gotten of Dean working on Baby this season. I used to laugh at the random scenes of one of them cleaning their weapons in the background of motel rooms, but even that stuff was fills out the characters lives and make them feel real, IMO.

[rue721]

I know a lot of people feel the show was more impersonal under Gamble because the myth arcs weren't centered directly around either Sam or Dean, but I felt like the show was very personal in those years. And, the show says it's doing personal journeys this season, but I don't feel the intimacy with them as I did throughout S6 and S7. I don't know how to explain it.

 

I think the difference is that Carver's storylines are almost solely plot-driven rather than character-driven. The stories' developments are usually imposed on the characters rather than driven by the characters. For example, the Mark of Cain plotline is very personal in that it has to do with changes to Dean's mind and body -- it's the most personal storyline they have going at the moment, I think -- but Dean himself isn't the one driving that storyline in terms of making things happen. The Mark is doing things *to* Dean.

 

If a "protagonist" is defined structurally, as the entity that is driving the story forward, it's the MoC -- not Dean -- that is the protagonist in that storyline. So over the course of that storyline we're learning more about the MoC (rather than about Dean).

 

It's kind of an abstract problem, but I think that's what keeps Carver's storylines from feeling genuinely intimate -- the characters still aren't the protagonists in them (structurally), because the storylines are primarily plot-driven rather than character-driven.

 

Right now, I think that the character *most* in the role of protagonist within his storyline is actually Sam. His dilemma seems to be "what to do with Dean?" and as Sam's perspective/decisions change regarding what tact to take with Dean, that storyline moves forward.

 

I can't even tell you who the protagonists in Cas or Crowley's storylines are, because they *should* be Claire and Rowena, since the women's reappearances were the catalysts for those stories, but both women are so comparatively powerless within their plotlines and within the show's world in general that they can't/don't push those stories forward, either. Which imo is why those storylines are floundering and don't have any arc to them right now -- they have no (structural) protagonists, so they have no movement.

 

But the problem is that instead of trusting that we will get the whole monsters vs humanity thing just by watching Dean and Sam we get stupid plots that just beat us over the head with the obvious parallels.

 

Under Carver, the show often does this thing where it will literally show us the same story multiple times, even within the same episode. It kills me. It's not even a parallel at that point, it's just straight up repetition and I don't understand why the show does it. In As Time Goes By (ETA:  thanks for the correction, DittyDotDot) for example, we would literally watch a scene and then watch Abbadon watch *the same scene.* Why?

 

I like mirroring and parallels, but what's interesting about a mirror or a parallel are the *differences* between the two characters or stories, not their similarities. If there are no differences, then there's no reason for it to be interesting.

 

Also, something that's been happening under Carver is that the characters themselves often seem oblivious to the parallels and mirroring, which makes them look like dumbasses and makes it all even more boring imo. In Wendigo, the *second freaking episode,* when Sam was trying to act oblivious to the parallel of the victim-of-the-week looking for her missing brother and he and Dean having *just* reunited, Dean shut that down with a look, and Sam stopped playing dumb. That tiny moment was much more interesting than all the dumbassery in Paper Moon imo. I *want* to know the characters' perspectives, and the parallels that *they* pick up on within the story can be a really interesting way of conveying that. But if the characters themselves don't pick up on any parallels or the mirrored characters/storylines are never *contrasted* with each other...what are those parallels and what is that mirroring even supposed to convey? What's the point of having them?

Edited January 26, 2015 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

Under Carver, the show often does this thing where it will literally show us the same story multiple times, even within the same episode. It kills me. It's not even a parallel at that point, it's just straight up repetition and I don't understand why the show does it. In Time After Time, for example, we would literally watch a scene and then watch Abbadon watch *the same scene.* Why?

 

Wait? I'm totally on-board with your premise, but what episode are you talking about--As Time Goes By? Time After Time is a S7 episode where Dean gets thrown back in time and hunts with Elliot Ness.

 

But yeah, that was a total waste of screen-time showing us the same scenes twice. I don't think that was about parallelism though, I think it's because the show no longer trusts the audience to follow along without it being spelled out to them in maudlin detail. I thought it was a good gimmick to have Abaddon be able to see through other people's eyes, but why waste the gimmick and not use it to tell more story?

I think the difference is that Carver's storylines are almost solely plot-driven rather than character-driven. The stories' developments are usually imposed on the characters rather than driven by the characters. For example, the Mark of Cain plotline is very personal in that it has to do with changes to Dean's mind and body -- it's the most personal storyline they have going at the moment, I think -- but Dean himself isn't the one driving that storyline in terms of making things happen. The Mark is doing things *to* Dean.

 

 That's what I was struggling to explain this morning.  Thank you!

[rue721]

Oops sorry -- yes, I mean As Time Goes By.

Edited January 26, 2015 by rue721

[amensisterfriend]

Again with the drinking

 

I'm so glad someone else is as over this as I am! It's always been the show's lazy shorthand for 'how tough and cool people cope with paaaain' and it's just so old by now. John, Bobby and Dean are/were all alcohol abusers. (Sam, for his part, became addicted to 'demon's blood', which...whatever!) Ellen, who also liked her booze, owned a bar where other tough and manly man hunters hung out and drank constantly. Chuck drinks to sleep and cope. An amazingly high percentage of victims or people somehow involved with the weekly storylines are always shown guzzling booze to deal with their angst. Sam and Dean are almost never even shown drinking water or soda, regardless of where they are or the time of day---it's like they're contractually obligated to swig beer all day long because they're just that 'cool.' Maybe alcohol abuse is really as prevalent as the show depicts, but realistic or otherwise, it's just repetitive, dull and depressing to me by now. 

[catrox14]

I think the alcohol abuse in the show is reflective how many really damaged, unhealthy, maladjusted people cope.  And pretty much ERRYONE in the show is unhealthy or maladjusted in some way. These people don't seek therapy or counseling and frankly I wouldn't watch a show that featured Dean and Sam's weekly visit to Dr. Cure My Angst. Or Dean going to AA.  And this whole deal with Dean and the MoC being an allegory to substance abuse is so fucked up that I am getting really aggravated.

Edited February 1, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

I'm so glad someone else is as over this as I am! It's always been the show's lazy shorthand for 'how tough and cool people cope with paaaain' and it's just so old by now. John, Bobby and Dean are/were all alcohol abusers. (Sam, for his part, became addicted to 'demon's blood', which...whatever!) Ellen, who also liked her booze, owned a bar where other tough and manly man hunters hung out and drank constantly. Chuck drinks to sleep and cope. An amazingly high percentage of victims or people somehow involved with the weekly storylines are always shown guzzling booze to deal with their angst. Sam and Dean are almost never even shown drinking water or soda, regardless of where they are or the time of day---it's like they're contractually obligated to swig beer all day long because they're just that 'cool.' Maybe alcohol abuse is really as prevalent as the show depicts, but realistic or otherwise, it's just repetitive, dull and depressing to me by now. 

 

I've never had much of an issue with the actual drinking on the show; it's always felt somewhat realistic to me considering who these guys were and the lives they led. But then again, I grew up around many men and women who did abuse alcohol in a similar manner so I might not have the right angle on it. However, I do get frustrated with endless scenes in bars and such of people sitting around having boring and pointless conversations, but I never felt like that was the show's go-to until recently.

 

In the early days, we rarely saw Sam and Dean drink unless it was recreational. In fact, I remember back in S2 Dean calling Sam out for getting drunk when they were on a case. It wasn't until Dean came out of Hell and all the misery came crashing in on them that I felt like they were really starting to use the drinking as a crutch--especially for Dean. I thought when Dean got pulled out of Purgatory we were over this particular crutch, but sadly, I think it's just become more of one since mid S9. Lately it does feel like it's the show's way of trying to seem edgy and adult, though, rather than being intrinsic to the characters anymore.

[rue721]

Lately it does feel like it's the show's way of trying to seem edgy and adult, though, rather than being intrinsic to the characters anymore.

 

Ugh yes, this is the problem I have with it. It seems like drinking is supposed to be shorthand for "[Character] is struggling with FEELINGS!" Imo the show shouldn't be using shorthand for ~feelings~ in the first place, because those supposed feelings are going to be meaningless and impossible to connect with unless they're more earned (by what happens on screen) than that. I feel like it's cheap in the same way as how on every procedural there's some lead character with some horrific backstory, because that way the show can mine angst without actually putting any effort or screentime into actual character development.

 

Also, it is ridiculous to me that there are zero consequences to the drinking, even to the point that I can count on one hand the times a character has even legitimately appeared drunk. If the show is trying to act like a character is all moody or whatever, why not give them a tic or compulsion that isn't going to effect their literal ability to function, like smoking cigarettes or something. There was this one woman I worked with, you could always tell when her life was getting to her, because the more tense she was, the better and more intricately she did her hair and makeup. Plenty of people irl have weird "stress relief" compulsions, it doesn't have to be something as corny and frankly impractical as drinking too much imo. YMMV.

 

Do you guys watch Bates Motel?

When Dylan showed up having vomited all over his car and passed out, it legitimately was sad and scary imo because that's not like him. So I guess the shorthand even worked that time! I guess it *can* work without being overshadowed by the cheapness of the tactic!

But tbh if they showed Dean doing the same thing at this point, I would be irritated and feel that grumpy "ugh do we have to deal with this AGAIN!" thing. Which I guess is proof that they have successfully conveyed that he actually does have a (tiresome) problem with alcohol, lol. But the overuse has definitely dulled the impact of heavy drinking even as shorthand for ~anguish~ that I guess they're trying to use it as.

 

I don't care that they drink but I find how they drink and how the show depicts drinking really tiresome and fantastical. YMMV. On the other hand, though, I usually like the bars on this show. I guess because the lighting and set tend to be darker for the bar scenes, so the bars seem homey and welcoming compared to most of the other settings. I guess what I'm saying is that I miss the motels, but thank goodness we still have the bars! So I'm fine with all the expos that goes down in them, tbh.

[amensisterfriend]

Plenty of people irl have weird "stress relief" compulsions, it doesn't have to be something as corny and frankly impractical as drinking too much imo. YMMV.

 

Amen! As realistic as the heavy drinking may be, having such a ridiculously high percentage of characters both major and minor use this same shorthand for 'coping with intense manpain' over and over is just so dreary and tedious by now, especially since---as you note---there are almost never any real consequences. In fact, I think it's just supposed to drive home just how tough and macho they are, like the "hard drinkin' cowboys' from those old westerns. (Though i shudder to think of the state of John, Bobby or Dean's livers!) It would be relatable, interesting and just more fun for me if they started throwing in some OTHER ways people deal with stress and depression rather than just hitting the bottle. Your example about the woman changing her hair and makeup was awesome, albeit obviously not really one they could have the male characters turn to here :) 

 

I get that the show strives very hard to be dark and gritty (often excessively so, IMO, which is why the lighter episodes are almost invariably my favorites) and that the heavy alcohol abuse among the show's many, many screwed up characters is symptomatic of that---I just wish that after 10 years they showed a little more variety in the manifestation of depression/stress and coping mechanisms. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by amensisterfriend

[rue721]

I just wish that after 10 years they showed a little more variety in the manifestation of depression/stress and coping mechanisms. 

 

I think they used to, actually! Evidently, John hunted. Imo Sam would pick a goal and prep obsessively for it (studied up, worked out, whatever). Remember when he was cleaning his guns over and over in S7, and Hellucifer finally asked if it was because he couldn't stop thinking about using one of them to kill himself? Dean used to work on the car. I think at one point, Dean explicitly said that he liked working on the car when he was stressed/overwhelmed because at least he knew it was fixable if he worked on it long and hard enough.

[catrox14]

What other coping skills would guys like Sam and Dean have though? Drugs? I doubt we are ever going to see Dean or Sam smoke weed ( but gods Stoned!Dean is one of my favorite Deans) . 

 

 

ETA: Dean still drank whilst rebuilding the car.....just sayin'

Edited February 1, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

What other coping skills would guys like Sam and Dean have though? Drugs? I doubt we are ever going to see Dean or Sam smoke weed ( but gods Stoned!Dean is one of my favorite Deans) . 

 

 

ETA: Dean still drank whilst rebuilding the car.....just sayin'

 

Dean did have a beer with Bobby while rebuilding Baby in S7. But that feels like kinda normal stuff guys do while doing stuff. Not the excessive and constant gin swilling coupled with beer drinking that's been going on the last couple of seasons, IMO. Now that you guys got me thinking about it, Dean driving places is rather irresponsible--wouldn't they always be somewhat buzzed at all times anymore?

 

Other stress relievers: Exercise is a great stress reliever. Sam's been known to run in S7 and at the beginning of S9. I can't imagine Dean picking up running, but I've been kinda hoping Dean starts on a exercise regime where he routinely beats the crap out of inanimate objects--he could take up boxing or just set up a kinda obstacle course in the bunker. There's actually lots of possibilities if the writers wanted to think outside the box for once.

 

It's not just the drinking though, everything is so formulaic. They almost always use the suits and badges; it's the same five go to monsters; even the episodes mostly follow the same pattern: gory death, title card, exposition in the bunker or car, crime scene info dump where they peg the wrong monster and/or culprit, another gory death, more exposition either in a motel or bar to peg the proper monster and/or culprit, gear up/head out, monster monologue, action/killing, denouement.. They just really haven't shaken things up much in recent years. I think I miss the creativity the show once showcase, not only in their twists on monsters, but they also used to mess with form a bit more and all. I don't know, the show is long in the tooth, it must be hard to step outside the pattern that seems to work for them, I guess.

[SueB]

I think Dean got a new liver when redirected and my head canon is every time Cas healed him he went ahead and did a tune up (liver, cholesterol, etc...)

[catrox14]

I have the same headcanon, SueB.

[7kstar]

I think Dean got a new liver when redirected and my head canon is every time Cas healed him he went ahead and did a tune up (liver, cholesterol, etc...)

I think they are too afraid to shake it up.  I think they think the success showed up because of the formula in season 4 and they haven't messed with it too much.  Dean get's the heavy storyline the first half, Sam the second. 

 

I would love to see them portraying other than FBI agents.  They have done a few others in recent years but it is rare.  The did give Sam exercising but we don't see Dean cleaning his guns anymore, or working on the car.

 

I agree I would like something other than let's drink or watch porn.  Surely manly guys do more than this in real life.  Or is the problem that the guys writing the show are geeks and they don't know what manly men do?  :)

[Wynne88]

Your example about the woman changing her hair and makeup was awesome, albeit obviously not really one they could have the male characters turn to here :)

 

Oh, PLEASE!  Can we have Sam obsessively changing his hair style every time things get rough?  Eventually he's bound to land on a style I like.  He doesn't have to fool with make-up.

[SueB]

Fixing up cars for Dean. Reading books for Sam.

[rue721]

I agree I would like something other than let's drink or watch porn.  Surely manly guys do more than this in real life.  Or is the problem that the guys writing the show are geeks and they don't know what manly men do?  :)

 

Aside from working on the car, Dean used to play pool, watch movies, listen to music, etc. If they wanted, the show could take Sam being a health nut a little further and have him keeping up with all those DudeBro "health" fads like using butter in his coffee. I don't think there's a lack of material.

 

Just playing around, but imo it would be fun if Dean were to realize that Sam's having a hard time because he sees that Sam has dragged out the P90X DVD and his old homemade pullup bar again, or that Sam keeps trying to make conversation about and is clearly obsessing over whether barefoot running really is better for a runner's form. Maybe it would be fun if Sam were to realize Dean's having some trouble because he can hear that Dean is blaring a Clint Eastwood marathon in his room, or because yet another obscure tool or part or component has arrived for that random project that Dean keeps tinkering with even though he can't really spare the time (should be monster-hunting!).

 

It's not just the drinking though, everything is so formulaic. They almost always use the suits and badges; it's the same five go to monsters; even the episodes mostly follow the same pattern: gory death, title card, exposition in the bunker or car, crime scene info dump where they peg the wrong monster and/or culprit, another gory death, more exposition either in a motel or bar to peg the proper monster and/or culprit, gear up/head out, monster monologue, action/killing, denouement.. They just really haven't shaken things up much in recent years. I think I miss the creativity the show once showcase, not only in their twists on monsters, but they also used to mess with form a bit more and all. I don't know, the show is long in the tooth, it must be hard to step outside the pattern that seems to work for them, I guess.

 

I agree that it seems like they're in a rut. Personally, I think that the episodes could stand to have a more solid structure -- for example, I think this most recent episode sure could have used a subplot. It was just scene after scene after scene of good!Charlie or bad!Charlie, and the pacing was pretty bad as a result.

 

Imo the show keeps erasing details or side characters or just any hint of idiosyncrasy or chaos that could give the show some texture and some life. I don't know what the rationale behind that is?

 

The last couple scripts have seemed completely under-worked to me -- like the writers farted them out, gave them a once over, and moved on. Things like Claire's inexplicably ax-murdering-happy acquaintances or Dean literally interrogating someone by yelling "TALK!" in his face feel to me like they were just placeholders for details that the writers planned to fill in or fix in a later draft. Which is fine, except that those placeholders were never actually filled in or fixed in a later draft of the script -- maybe because there *was* no later draft?! So if the scripts are only baaaaarely written in the first place, I guess providing atmosphere and texture might be hoping for a bit much!

[DittyDotDot]

If they wanted, the show could take Sam being a health nut a little further and have him keeping up with all those DudeBro "health" fads like using butter in his coffee. I don't think there's a lack of material.

 

::shivers::: The idea of fat globbets floating around in my cup...yuck! Gave me flashbacks to reading about Sherpas putting butter in their tea to give them extra protein/energy at high altitudes. It could be a very funny gag though. I also would find the discussion about barefoot running absolutely hilarious, too!

[rue721]

OMG, DittyDotDot, do you even lift?

 

ETA:  just a dumb joke

Edited February 2, 2015 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

::snort:: What, the boxes in my basement? ;)

 

No, I don't lift at all, but I'm aware of the fad. Every time I hear about it, reminds me of the Sherpas, though.

[shang yiet]

I felt like they just weren't interested in Sam, which has gotten even worse with Carver

 

Much worse. This latest episode, Sam was wasted as Charlie's escort, got strangled and taken out of the picture. That scene with the magical handcuffs was groanworthy.

He once struggled with his dark side (and still does) and they could have had him talking about how Dean is having a similar struggle and  we could have had some insight about how Sam coped with all that but no, we needed dark!Charlie for that.

[catrox14]

Much worse. This latest episode, Sam was wasted as Charlie's escort, got strangled and taken out of the picture. That scene with the magical handcuffs was groanworthy.

He once struggled with his dark side (and still does) and they could have had him talking about how Dean is having a similar struggle and  we could have had some insight about how Sam coped with all that but no, we needed dark!Charlie for that.

 

Not trying to tit for tat here but I think we've seen plenty of how Sam felt about his dark side throughout most of the show. s2 was all about whether he was tainted and a freak. We saw how distressing it was for him. In s3 we saw how far he would go to avenge Dean's deaths in Mystery Spot so we know how vengeance driven he can be. In s4 we didn't know why Sam was doing what he was doing but we still saw a lot of how he felt about himself IMO.

 

S5 was Sam's struggle for redemption. We Sam fall apart after the wall fell and then we saw him have the strength of character to put himself back together in the s6 finale. Then in s7 we saw the aftermath of that with the Hellucinations, yet by the end of s7 he explains that he doesn't feel guilty about what he's done anymore because he thought his Hell time as penance. Which, BTW, made no sense to me why he suddenly felt so unclean again in s8. I guess to me I have very little trouble understanding what Sam's feels about himself. Sam doesn't suffer low self-esteem and he doesn't seem to carry the burden of saving the world in the way that Dean does, which I suspect is more of a function of Dean's parental issues than anything. I think Sam accepts himself now and I think Sam actually likes himself. 

 

One thing that has always bugged me is that after Sam got out of Hell said he doesn't harp on himself nor feels broken or is guilt ridden because he felt like his time in Hell was penance. I think that could be one reason why him not looking for Kevin was slightly plausible and why he didn't seem to upset about that choice.

 

I still think it made no sense but I can fanwank to some degree Sam's somewhat cavalier attitude in the beginning of s8.  Which BTW is another reason I hated the entire shift of the trials to being about Sam's thinking he was unclean. So was Sam lying about feeling clean after Hell or was it just contrivance to set up the big scene iwth Crowley. I'm going with contrivance.

Edited February 2, 2015 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

S5 was Sam's struggle for redemption. We Sam fall apart after the wall fell and then we saw him have the strength of character to put himself back together in the s6 finale. Then in s7 we saw the aftermath of that with the Hellucinations, yet by the end of s7 he explains that he doesn't feel guilty about what he's done anymore because he thought his Hell time as penance. Which, BTW, made no sense to me why he suddenly felt so unclean again in s8. I guess to me I have very little trouble understanding what Sam's feels about himself. Sam doesn't suffer low self-esteem and he doesn't seem to carry the burden of saving the world in the way that Dean does, which I suspect is more of a function of Dean's parental issues than anything. I think Sam accepts himself now and I think Sam actually likes himself.

 

I'm responding to your entire post, catrox14, because you bring up some interesting things, but I'm putting this part for emphasis. Was Sam doing that near the end of the season, or was it in "Defending Your Life." I was thinking it was "Defending..." so if not, please feel free to tell me that I've got this wrong, but I generally thought that Sam's saying that was denial. Because for me, while he was saying that, his own brain was tormenting him Lucifer hallucinations. I always liked the (admittedly my own) interpretation that the hallucinations were the parts of Sam that he didn't want to deal with and/or were worried about... even especially things he might feel guilty about. For me, I thought that it was very telling that it was Hallucifer who remembered the name of the officer that they worked with before during that case in "Out With the Old." Why would Sam's regular consciousness not want to remember that? Could it be because they tortured that guy while trying to get information from the demon and that was something Sam didn't want to be reminded of and felt guilty about? And the more he thought about that case and let "Hallucifer" in (acknowledged him), the more his past and guilt was coming back? To me that made more sense than Sam just arbitrarily deciding he didn't feel guilty anymore - especially if Sam said this while he was having the hallucinations, because those were all about tormenting himself and they were often telling him things he should feel guilty about and/or about how crappy he was... which wouldn't make sense to me if Sam was really all hunky-dory and guilt free.

 

So my theory was that Sam said that he didn't feel guilty, but what he really did was put his guilt "over there" in his hallucinations which he could interestingly "turn off" via his scar when they became too much to cope with. I thought that was a fascinating coping mechanism, and then when Sam let his hallucinations "in" (i.e. acknowledged them) - interestingly exacerbated and kicked into high gear by a case that he likely had a lot of guilt about - he was also acknowledging his guilt and all the stuff he tried to put "over there" in his hallucinations and then couldn't sleep. Which to me is again not something a person free of guilt would do, in my opinion, and it drove him crazy.

 

I guess for that reason - and so many others - Sam not looking for Dean (hello "Time After Time...") and abandoning Kevin will never make sense to me. Even if Sam didn't feel like it was his responsibility anymore - which really? - Carver wanted me to buy that Sam was going to be okay with Crowley pretty much saying "ha ha, have fun being a loser" to his face and just shrugging that off? Sam hates Crowley. If nothing else Sam should've wanted to hunt down Crowley just because Crowley pulled one over on him, never mind that he stole the tablet and what he might possibly want to do with it and that he had Kevin. I'm sorry, I'm not buying it. If they wanted me to believe that it was because Sam supposedly "learned his lesson" after season 4 to not do the revenge thing again after Dean's disappearance, then they should have specifically said that - but that seems like a really strong character thing to just forget and toss aside to me.

 

Which BTW is another reason I hated the entire shift of the trials to being about Sam's thinking he was unclean. So was Sam lying about feeling clean after Hell or was it just contrivance to set up the big scene iwth Crowley. I'm going with contrivance.

 

Based on my above, I'm going to go with more in denial for season 7 - since after the discussion with Dean in "Hello Cruel World,"  Sam seemed to embrace the being honest thing pretty well, so he was definitely being honest with Dean mode at that point (most of season 7). However that was something else Carver seemed to throw by the wayside as well ("I lied") so I just throw my hands up at this point. If they need to trash Sam's character to get the plot where they want it to go, to get the angst going, to put Dean in an emotional hole, or just because they seem to think it's fun, then they're going to do it whether it makes sense or not. (Now it seems to be Dean's turn for that to happen as well. I'm guessing Dean will be allowed to redeem himself, however.)

 

To me, Sam supposedly feeling he was unclean actually was hinted at from early on. He admitted to Dean - I think in season 2 - that he really didn't feel like he truly fit in during college (or something to that effect). Even in the "Pilot," he didn't seem comfortable at the party and referred to himself as the "normal" one from the Munster family - meaning he didn't feel like he quite fit there either, so I can see this as being hinted at from way back. Even the way he seemed to relate to and/or sympathize with some of the monsters they hunted, hoping that they really could make the "right choice" and redeem themselves. To me, that makes more sense if Sam is hoping that he, too, despite being "unclean" or a monster maybe has a chance. So I actually thought that was one of character things that actually did make sense for Sam in season 8. It was all the other ones that didn't make any sense, but that the writers needed to have for "plot purposes" (which was stupid, because there you have it right there - say Sam just always felt that way - no need to make him do reprehensible things to get him to that point.)

 

So bottom line, I agree with you that we have seen Sam deal with his dark side, and I don't need for him to go there. As I explained earlier, I also don't need him to try to sympathize with Dean over it - Dean doesn't need that reminder or any hint that the focus isn't on what he needs, in my opinion. However, I do agree with shang yiet that Sam should be included in something plot-wise here more than being the escort for Charlie and being the damsel in distress for Charlie and the random other person of the week to save. So far they aren't even letting Sam effectively help Dean - the one lead he found was even turned over to Charlie. So what exactly is his role in the story this year? Couldn't he at least hunt down Crowley or something like Dean hunted down Dick Roman or Abaddon or killed Zachariah? Something. We already had the "Sam fails to do anything useful to help or save Dean (or Kevin or the world)" storyline for the last two seasons. Yeah I get it - the story is telling me that Sam is useless. Those anvils are sort of becoming tiresome for me by this point.

[catrox14]

I couldn't remember if it was s6 or s7 with the guilt thing so thanks for that reminder. 

 

I always thought Sam was being very self-aware about not feeling guilt  and that his feelings of being unclean were washed away because he had sacrificed himself to save the planet and he spent 100 years in the Cage suffering for that so he could say to himself "Yup, I suffered enough, I've paid my dues, I did my best. And I can leave the guilt behind. "

 

LIke he went to college for which he had no reason  to feel guilty except maybe the circumstances under which he left but even that is debatable. But John and Dean guilt-tripped him about which wasn't fair but he responded to it anyway.  I think s8 was a similar thing in that Sam didn't feel guilty about moving on with his life until Dean showed up to guilt-trip him, which in that case I think was rather justified especially about Kevin. I think s4 Sam was in total denial of what was happening to him but other than that I don't think Sam does denial, which is why I have trouble with the idea that he was in denial about Dean's state of existence last season.  To me Sam was just pissed off at Dean (rightfully so) and didn't completely care what was happening to Dean until he Dean killed Abaddon.

 

I thought the s7 Hellucinations were mind fuckery that settled in during his Hell time induced by Lucifer and that because the wall fell that mind fuckery showed up again but not as a manifestation of Sam's own self-induced latent guilt.  Even the stufff he did as Soulless Sam was clean slated when Rufus died IIRC so between s6 and s8 I don't know what he did other than not looking for Dean and Kevin that he should feel guilty for.  That's why to me that was contrivance to mirror Crowley's latent guilt when he was saying where do I begin to ask for forgiveness. 

[AwesomO4000]

I always thought Sam was being very self-aware about not feeling guilt  and that his feelings of being unclean were washed away because he had sacrificed himself to save the planet and he spent 100 years in the Cage suffering for that so he could say to himself "Yup, I suffered enough, I've paid my dues, I did my best. And I can leave the guilt behind. "

 

LIke he went to college for which he had no reason  to feel guilty except maybe the circumstances under which he left but even that is debatable. But John and Dean guilt-tripped him about which wasn't fair but he responded to it anyway.  I think s8 was a similar thing in that Sam didn't feel guilty about moving on with his life until Dean showed up to guilt-trip him, which in that case I think was rather justified especially about Kevin. I think s4 Sam was in total denial of what was happening to him but other than that I don't think Sam does denial, which is why I have trouble with the idea that he was in denial about Dean's state of existence last season.  To me Sam was just pissed off at Dean (rightfully so) and didn't completely care what was happening to Dean until he Dean killed Abaddon.

 

I can see this also in that it would be potentially logical for Sam to think he suffered enough, and you're correct that he supposedly did get a pass for previous transactions at Rufus' graveside - which also makes it annoying that apparently according to Carver that was forgotten on both Sam's and Dean's part in season 8. I also agree with you that Sam was not in denial about Dean in season 9, he was just angry (which in itself seems a regression as Sam, in my opinion, was generally quick to forgive - almost to a fault - previously: it was one of his positive characteristics.) However, that still wouldn't logically get me to Sam in season 8, in either the supposed thinking - "I've paid enough, so it's okay if I let Kevin, Dean, and the rest of the world get screwed now", * or in his choice to go back to a "normal life," something Sam didn't seem very interested in anymore since about season 2. Except for - maybe - that awful "Chris Angel..." episode which still makes almost no sense to me in the context of the rest of the season and even with what Kripke was saying in the commentary during the season 4 finale - i.e. that Sam was somewhat suicidal - which doesn't track with "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old" (I personally think that Sam knew his decision to go ahead was likely a death sentence of some sort, so that comment of "getting old" made little sense to me except as meaning "I don't expect to get old at all and that's okay with me.") It maybe wouldn't have been so jarring to me if in just the previous season, hunting - and hunting with Dean in particular - had been the thing that made Sam feel grounded and most like himself... and even soulless Sam gravitated to hunting. The whole thing just seemed like a huge plot contrivance that didn't make much sense, but just my opinion there.

 

And how does "normal life" even track with the whole "I always felt unclean, different, whatever?" If they were going to go with that - i.e. Sam from earlier and feeling that way - why would they have him try for a "normal life" that he supposedly felt like he didn't fit in with anyway? It was just pointless and served only to make Sam look like a jerk from trying to force something he knew wouldn't work and abandoning Dean and Kevin to do it. To quote Cartman: so not cool.

 

* (which is also a crappy thing to do to Sam's character, in my opinion, which I don't see how anyone would miss as to why that would be crappy, especially when they have Kevin calling Sam out on it in the first episode, so not fixing it was maybe, in my opinion, a deliberate "we have to make Sam do something crappy, so he'll feel guilty again" moment. They should have at least had Sam curious as to exactly what happened to Dean and make sure he was "resting peacefully" - which could've been easily done via a visit to a psychic. Just not right, in my opinion, that the writers made it a point that Sam just shrugged his shoulders and walked away. Kevin there really is no excuse for, and the writers had to know that, or they wouldn't have pointed to it via Kevin's phone messages, in my opinion.)

 

I thought the s7 Hellucinations were mind fuckery that settled in during his Hell time induced by Lucifer and that because the wall fell that mind fuckery showed up again but not as a manifestation of Sam's own self-induced latent guilt.  Even the stufff he did as Soulless Sam was clean slated when Rufus died IIRC so between s6 and s8 I don't know what he did other than not looking for Dean and Kevin that he should feel guilty for.  That's why to me that was contrivance to mirror Crowley's latent guilt when he was saying where do I begin to ask for forgiveness.

 

This could also be the case. I guess for me, I just like the idea that the hallucinations were current and specific for a reason and that they were telling me something about Sam's psyche. And that there was a reason they got worse when he "acknowledged" them. But even with my guilt theory and that that's what Sam was doing there - that doesn't mean that Sam wasn't cured of that mostly by Castiel. However that brings up that Sam likely likely felt a little bad about Cas, since he was crazy due to his having taking on Sam's crazy. And Sam did seem very concerned about leaving Castiel behind with Meg. But his guilt shouldn't have been too bad there...

 

So I agree with you on the second part about contrivances, but I would expand it to say that the whole season 8 plot set up for Sam was somewhat of a contrivance: to have Sam do something he should feel guilty for just so they could set up that parallel with Crowley and create tension between Sam and Dean and to get Dean to the place he was at in season 9. It's mostly annoying to me that if they were going to pull the "I always felt unclean / wrong" card anyway, couldn't they have skipped the making Sam abandon Dean and Kevin part?

[rue721]

LIke he went to college for which he had no reason  to feel guilty except maybe the circumstances under which he left but even that is debatable. But John and Dean guilt-tripped him about which wasn't fair but he responded to it anyway.  I think s8 was a similar thing in that Sam didn't feel guilty about moving on with his life until Dean showed up to guilt-trip him, which in that case I think was rather justified especially about Kevin. I think s4 Sam was in total denial of what was happening to him but other than that I don't think Sam does denial, which is why I have trouble with the idea that he was in denial about Dean's state of existence last season.  To me Sam was just pissed off at Dean (rightfully so) and didn't completely care what was happening to Dean until he Dean killed Abaddon.

 

I don't think even the college thing was so cut and dried. Sam told Dean that it was John who finally told him to go and not come back, Sam was all worried about seeing John again for the first time since he'd gotten kicked out (so Dean told him that John had secretly been lurking around his campus, which apparently reassured Sam), and nearly as soon as Sam and John saw each other they actually did start having major problems *again.* So I think that Sam didn't actually think going back "home" was an option, and dove headfirst into creating a new life for himself as a way of making the best of things. Part of building that new life with NO relation to hunting was probably a "fuck you" to his family/John for kicking him out, but it wasn't (imo) like Sam had some smorgasbord of choices and "normal life" was just the one that appealed most to him. He didn't really have a choice to stay with his family, so his other choices were:  hunt alone, bum around, or go to college? I think he picked the best of a bad lot by going to college, and was determined to make the best of it and do GREAT at it, because that's how Sam is, he's always needing to prove himself and overcompensating because of that.

 

Anyway, my point is, I think that Sam will push extremely hard to make the best of things as a way of proving himself, and it leads him to overcompensate/lose perspective. What actually always gets me is how, in S3, when it looked like Dean was going to die and go to Hell, Sam dredged up that ridiculous zombie doctor for Dean and seemed for real to think that maybe if Dean became some zombie harvesting human organs he'd be able to survive -- and was a PROPONENT of Dean doing that. I think that when Sam wants something to be real or to be able to make something real, he wants it SO BAD that he'll make himself believe or do anything as long as it keeps that possibility open.

 

So, I don't think that Sam was lying about his (lack of) guilt per se, and in general, imo he's actually pretty frank and unembarrassed about revealing even really personal or humiliating stuff***. But just because he understood intellectually that he'd suffered enough and doesn't need to suffer anymore, doesn't mean that he can actually *stop* himself from suffering. With the Hellucinations, he knew that Lucifer wasn't really in his head, he knew that he didn't deserve to suffer endlessly at Lucifer's hands, etc, but he *still* was having those Hellucinations, and they were still scaring the shit out of him, to the point that he eventually wasn't able to function at all (when he went to the hospital and was dying).

 

I think that Sam does denial in the sense that he always is seeing this yawning chasm between who he wants to be and who he thinks he is, so when someone gives him a way to bridge that chasm (i.e., demon blood, whatever), and he clings onto that bridge *desperately,* but in the end, the bridge always ends up being a lie or a manipulation -- or, worst of all, it actually works the way it was supposed to (like when he really was able to throw Lucifer into the Cage), but it turns out he *still* hasn't crossed that chasm because he *still* hasn't changed and is still who he is instead of who he wants to be -- and then he becomes even more desperate and even more ready to swallow whatever promises someone starts feeding him of another bridge. And for Sam, imo that "someone" can also be Sam himself -- he will tell himself that if only he does XYZ he'll be different, he'll be better, etc (like with the Trials). But then he does XYZ or fails to do XYZ, and regardless, nothing changes, and he's still the same, only more desperate and enfeebled this time.

 

My fanwank for the Trials is that Dean convinced him that he *already* had become the person he was trying to become by doing the Trials, when Dean gave him that spiel about how he respected and needed him and that they were so strong now that they didn't even need to close the gates of hell, etc -- which is why he stopped the Trials. Dean convinced him that he'd already done what he'd needed to do, which was to be "purified." But then with the Gadreel reveal, it turned out that all that had was just a trick to keep him alive -- so he flipped the hell out. That fanwank still sucks, imo, because it still means the decision not to finish the Trials was *so* aggravatingly self-absorbed on Sam's part, but it's the best I can do!

 

Not even going to go into the opener for S8, because I thought it was so embarrassingly ridiculous and contrived that I just want to avert my eyes from it out of politeness :P

 

***It always kills me that when Zachariah put Sam and Dean in that weird Tech Office construct, Sam was creeping Dean out by acting too intense/interested in him and then started babbling to him about supernatural dreams -- and basically wouldn't let up about it! And then after their one successful ghost-hunt, declared that maybe they should just pack up their lives and travel the country together hunting. I loved how honest-to-god weird Sam was in that, because he did actually seem like himself and was very endearing (to me, anyway), and yet you could suddenly TOTALLY see how he never fits in and is so not-great at making friends. LOL. Anyway.

[catrox14]

 

he was trying to become by doing the Trials, when Dean gave him that spiel about how he respected and needed him and that they were so strong now that they didn't even need to close the gates of hell, etc -- which is why he stopped the Trials. Dean convinced him that he'd already done what he'd needed to do, which was to be "purified." But then with the Gadreel reveal, it turned out that all that had was just a trick to keep him alive -- so he flipped the hell out. That fanwank still sucks, imo, because it still means the decision not to finish the Trials was *so* aggravatingly self-absorbed on Sam's part, but it's the best I can do!

 

I'm not clear on what you are saying here.  Are you saying that whatever Dean said to Sam that convinced Sam to stop the trials was a lie from Dean?  Because I don't think that is true at all.  Naomi told Dean that Sam WAS absolutely going to die if he finished the Trials.  Back in Trial and Error, Sam's goal was to finish the trials and not die, which is why he was worried about Dean doing them because Dean viewed and accepted it as a suicide mission for himself.   So to me, Dean telling Sam they would figure out another way was absolutely sincere.   That is why Sam's about face in the s9 opener confused the holy crap out of me.  Dean tricked Sam into saying yes to Gadreel but Dean was not lying or obfuscating anything when he was trying to stop Sam from completing the trials.

Edited February 3, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I'm not clear on what you are saying here.  Are you saying that whatever Dean said to Sam that convinced Sam to stop the trials was a lie from Dean?  Because I don't think that is true at all.  Naomi told Dean that Sam WAS absolutely going to die if he finished the Trials.  Back in Trial and Error, Sam's goal was to finish the trials and not die, which is why he was worried about Dean doing them because Dean viewed and accepted it as a suicide mission for himself. 

 

So to me, Dean telling Sam they would figure out another way was absolutely sincere.   That is why Sam's about face in the s9 opener confused the holy crap out of me.

 

No, I think Sam was definitely going to die, and nobody was lying about that. If nothing else, once he got so sick after the second Trial it seemed pretty clear that he wasn't going to be able to survive a third Trial imo.

 

I don't think that anything Dean said was untrue, but I think he was selling Sam on the idea of stopping the Trials as hard as he possibly could. I think Dean's argument basically boiled down to, "you don't need to do this! because [we're so strong we can stop demons another way, etc]." I think he really meant they would look for another way, but his motivation was that he needed Sam to not die, not because he thought that "another way(s)" were thick on the ground, lol.

 

In terms of what I think Sam was hearing from Dean:  Sam said he was doing the Trials to be purified. When he had to purify his blood for the demon cure, he did it by confessing what he'd done to Dean (but the confession was offscreen, so Idk what exactly he said -- bahhhh). I guess what Sam thought he needed to purify himself of were his "sins" against Dean? So then when Dean came into the church and said that he loved/forgave him, etc, Sam thought his mission was over and he *was* purified of those "sins" against Dean -- so he didn't need to go through with the third Trial after all. OR! Sam thought that it would just be committing another "sin" against Dean if he left him when Dean asked him not to *again* (as he apparently had between S7 and S8 while Dean was in Purgatory). Idk, but apparently, Dean convinced*** him somehow that he'd already been purified or that going through with the third Trial would actually be another sin and fail to purify him or SOMETHING.

 

Idk, either way it seems really ridiculous and contrived. Sam's decision in the S8 finale, to stay alive even if it meant not finishing the Trials, was contradicted immediately and with no explanation in the S9 premiere, when he decided that actually, he wanted to die and the Trials were not a priority at all anymore. So I don't feel like that's going to make sense -- apparently the show thought they'd gone in the wrong direction in S8 and tried to course-correct in S9 even if they gave the viewers whiplash in order to do it?

 

Likewise, I think that the reason that Sam was 100% out of the life and 100% not "there" for Dean (and Kevin, and Cas) in the premier of S8 was so that he could have a character-based ~journey~ over the course of the season, of deciding to get back into hunting and to decide to be "there" for Dean. So contrived, imo.

 

***Imo inadvertently -- I think that Dean was concentrating more on "another way" in terms of hunting, not in terms of "purifying" Sam. I don't think that Dean even knows what Sam means by "purifying" himself, because he doesn't think of Sam as "impure" or "corrupted" or anything. That's also why Dean was taken aback/surprised when Sam told that story about reading King Arthur and knowing he could never become a hero like that because something was fundamentally corrupted about him.

 

Outside of S8:  imo that's also why Dean was so bewildered by John's "save him or kill him" thing. Imo John and Sam were both afraid that Sam *is* bad (it's intrinsic to him), whereas Dean is afraid of Sam becoming bad somehow (it's extrinsic to him). That's also why Dean was flipping out about the demon blood thing, not just in S4 but also when he started imaging that happening to Ben in S6 -- imo he thinks of *that* as the corruption, not that Sam is fundamentally corrupted. To Dean imo it's like Sam is drinking poison when he drinks the demon blood. I think that Sam meanwhile thinks that he's fundamentally corrupt anyway, and the person he is when he's drinking the demon blood is just himself but to an extreme -- and Ruby sold him on that, too, imo, what with the "it's just a feather, Dumbo" thing. I also think this all makes Dean's "I'm poison!" thing lament to Sam pretty ironic, lol.

[rue721]

Oh wait, you mean, do I think Dean was lying because I said this:  Dean convinced him that he'd already done what he'd needed to do, which was to be "purified." But then with the Gadreel reveal, it turned out that all that had was just a trick to keep him alive -- so he flipped the hell out?

 

I think that Dean wasn't *trying* to trick Sam when he was persuading him not to finish the Trials, he didn't say anything that was untrue per se. But I think that in that spiel, Dean convinced Sam that Sam had accomplished his mission -- to be purified. So Sam felt like his work was done.

 

The issue is that apparently, Dean *didn't* think that Sam's work was done, since then he put Gadreel in him and still refused to let him die. Which revealed that Dean's priority was keeping Sam alive, and him telling Sam not to complete the Trials because he'd already completed his real mission of "purifying" himself/fixing his relationship with his brother/etc was basically just meaningless. I don't think he was *lying* but imo it wasn't true.

 

I think that Sam thought he was sacrificing himself a la S5, but Dean thought he was trying to talk Sam down from suicide. Different perspectives, and imo Sam was disillusioned to find out that they weren't at all on the same page.

 

Personally, the "I lied" thing didn't bother me. When Sam originally told Dean he wouldn't have done the same thing (w/r/t Gadreel) that Dean did, imo he was telling Dean that he respected him too much to do that. When Dean got upset at hearing that, imo it was because Dean was hearing that Sam didn't love him enough to try and save him (which was pretty convincing based on what had happened at the beginning of S8, I guess). Since I thought it was basically just a miscommunication previously (because imo they both love *and* respect each other, it's a non-issue imo), when Sam said he "lied," I didn't think he meant that he didn't *actually* respect Dean enough to respect his choices, lol, I think he was telling Dean that he loved him enough to want to save him. And then he did ignore it when demon!Dean told him to stop trying to save Dean, and did do basically whatever it took to save Dean (apparently, not that we saw a lot of that!). I think it was more like Sam finally realized what Dean actually wanted from him (when Dean was dying) rather than that Sam had just been spouting lies previously, lol. YMMV.

[rue721]

Brought over from the Bitterness and Unpopular Opinions thread:

 

But of course then bad writing in "The Purge"  - I was okay with what happened in "Road Trip" - had to screw that all up and make Sam look like a jerk to compensate, so then I didn't feel so bad for him for a while. Not that I felt any better about Dean's lying or that Dean didn't get why Sam was angry about the lying. Now I was just annoyed with both of them - thanks a lot writers.

 

I actually agreed with what Sam said at the end of the The Purge. First off, in Sam's place, I would have just turned around and left the room as soon as Dean said that he had saved Sam's hide in the church. That's so dismissive -- Sam was the one doing the Trials, and the decision to live rather than finish them was *Sam's,* not Dean's. And then Dean said that he'd do it again! Apparently, he'd have done it even knowing that it was essentially trading a life for a life, Kevin's for Sam's, with the added benefit of Sam feeling violated and at fault, and knowing that was exactly what Sam *didn't want* (I assume because Sam doesn't want to feel like there's yet more blood on his hands)? UGH WUT. And then Dean said that it was the *right* thing? How was it the right thing? Dean is seriously claiming the moral high ground for deciding to have Gadreel possess Sam? UGHHHHHH. Sam was absolutely correct imo that Dean did it because he *wanted* to, that his mindset was basically "fuck everything else, I need Sam alive." Which, fine.

 

I actually don't find that pathological. Dean couldn't stop Mary or John from getting killed, which I would think gave him a pretty bitter taste of what loss is like, and he apparently can't become close to anyone else without dragging them into the supernatural and setting them up to die or have their lives ruined -- Sam's the only one left.*** I can't really imagine who would be able to let someone go, if there were any way to keep it from happening, if afterward they were going to be alone and adrift forever. Being alone like that sounds like torture, I think, like a kind of eternal solitary confinement. Like being trapped in a cell with invisible walls, that you can never escape because you carry it around with you. What's the difference between living like that and being in Hell? I completely understand why Dean sold his soul the first time he got a taste of that.

 

Imo, Sam also understands that, which is why, when Dean did agree to support Sam in him sacrificing himself to throw Lucifer back into Hell in S5, Sam gave him hope that he wouldn't be alone, by convincing him that he should/could go to Lisa and Ben. Obviously that didn't work out, though. Then, when Sam was a mess and not really *there* there in S7, Dean leaned on Bobby, but then Bobby died. So now, imo Dean doesn't have anyone or anything left to lose except Sam and almost certainly never will have, so obviously he'll give up anyone or anything in order to keep Sam with him. YMMV, but I personally have no problem with that. I get why *Sam* does, though. And that's where my sympathy for Dean ends. Why can he not just own that he can't let Sam die, not for Sam's sake or because that's the "right" thing to do, but because he needs him? It is selfish, imo, but FINE. OK, so it's selfish, so what? And as of The Purge, Dean was not only not owning that it was selfish, but essentially telling Sam he should be grateful to him or cede him the moral high ground for doing it? That is maddening.

 

I think that's what Sam was talking about when he said that Dean will make the sacrifices as long as he's not the one sacrificing -- that Dean *will not* sacrifice Sam, under any circumstances, even if it means that other people are sacrificing their lives or even worse things are happening. Sam is what Dean cares about and he will *never* again make the sacrifice of losing him. I think that's a pretty valid bone for Sam to pick. Especially because that's *exactly* what Sam doesn't want -- for other people to die so he can live, or for more sacrifices to be made on his behalf. He couldn't save Dean from dying or going to Hell when that all happened the first time, and things just spiraled out from there, with Sam making bigger and bigger gestures to justify his life (or rather, to justify the sacrifices that were made by others in order for him to live), to the point of dying and going to Hell himself or making deals with Death or WHATEVER. None of that ever seems to make a difference, though, and imo Sam can't find a way to justify (to himself) the sacrifices made on his behalf.

 

Partially because Dean keeps sabotaging Sam's efforts at clearing the slate of the debt Sam owes everyone who sacrificed in order for him to live, and Dean keeps sabotaging those efforts Dean's own sake (since he needs Sam alive). And that's frustrating but imo Sam has compassion for Dean's perspective and is willing to compromise for him, which is why he does things like decide to forgo ending the Trials. But then Dean pretends that he sabotages Sam *for* Sam and because that's the right thing to do? I think *that* is what sticks in Sam's craw, and what he was getting pissed off at Dean about in The Purge.

 

I guess how I see it, Sam sacrificed his own "mission" (the Trials) and even sacrificed the greater good (closing the Gates of Hell) for Dean, because he didn't want to abandon him. But then it turned out that Dean also betrayed Sam's trust and sacrificed Kevin and who knows who/what else in order for Sam not to abandon him, which I don't fault Sam for being galled by. And *then* Dean pretended that Sam hadn't sacrificed anything (Dean "saved" him from finishing the Trials) and claimed that he (Dean) was just doing the "right" thing by betraying Sam's trust and by sacrificing Keven and who/whatever else and none of it was for his own benefit at all. When really, the *only* person benefiting in that scenario was Dean. Sam wasn't going to be able to finish the Trials or wipe his slate clean, the Gates of Hell are still open and the world doesn't seem to have benefited, obviously Kevin didn't benefit...Dean got to keep Sam, though.

 

***I also think that there's sort of a messed up thing where imo Dean feels like he let the supernatural "taint" Sam and even encouraged Sam to go further and further into it -- imo Dean sort of feels like they're already ruined or like he doesn't have to worry about ruining Sam more at least, because he's already ruined. But then he comes out with these weird fantasies in which Sam escapes the supernatural and lives "normally" -- imo in order to not feel so guilty for "ruining" Sam. And imo to sort of live (or rather, fantasize? lol) vicariously through Sam, about not having been ruined himself. But anyway.

[DittyDotDot]

I actually agreed with what Sam said at the end of the The Purge. First off, in Sam's place, I would have just turned around and left the room as soon as Dean said that he had saved Sam's hide in the church. That's so dismissive -- Sam was the one doing the Trials, and the decision to live rather than finish them was *Sam's,* not Dean's. And then Dean said that he'd do it again! Apparently, he'd have done it even knowing that it was essentially trading a life for a life, Kevin's for Sam's, with the added benefit of Sam feeling violated and at fault, and knowing that was exactly what Sam *didn't want* (I assume because Sam doesn't want to feel like there's yet more blood on his hands)? UGH WUT. And then Dean said that it was the *right* thing? How was it the right thing? Dean is seriously claiming the moral high ground for deciding to have Gadreel possess Sam? UGHHHHHH. Sam was absolutely correct imo that Dean did it because he *wanted* to, that his mindset was basically "fuck everything else, I need Sam alive." Which, fine.

 

[...]

 

I guess how I see it, Sam sacrificed his own "mission" (the Trials) and even sacrificed the greater good (closing the Gates of Hell) for Dean, because he didn't want to abandon him. But then it turned out that Dean also betrayed Sam's trust and sacrificed Kevin and who knows who/what else in order for Sam not to abandon him, which I don't fault Sam for being galled by. And *then* Dean pretended that Sam hadn't sacrificed anything (Dean "saved" him from finishing the Trials) and claimed that he (Dean) was just doing the "right" thing by betraying Sam's trust and by sacrificing Keven and who/whatever else and none of it was for his own benefit at all. When really, the *only* person benefiting in that scenario was Dean. Sam wasn't going to be able to finish the Trials or wipe his slate clean, the Gates of Hell are still open and the world doesn't seem to have benefited, obviously Kevin didn't benefit...Dean got to keep Sam, though.

 

To me, both of them are saying only half truths in that conversation and are unloading (purging) themselves from a place of anger and frustration. I don't think Dean believes what he did was "right" anymore than Sam believes Dean is doing more harm than good. I just think neither can see the other's point of view right now over the anger and frustration. Up until The Purge, I think Dean is trying to do what Dean normally does when Sam is mad at him--wait it out until Sam gets over it and then they can move on. But, Sam isn't willing to get over it so easily this time so Dean starts trying to force Sam to get over it, which of course, puts Sam on the defensive so he lashes out at Dean. And, back to the holding pattern it goes.

 

I get what Dean's saying--I fucked up, I get it, but it was a fucked up situation and I did the best I could at the time and it's time you stop beating me up over it. And I get what Sam was saying--you just can't keep choosing my life over others because I'm the one that has to live with the consequences of those choices not you and you don't get to choose when or whether I get over it.

 

My issue with The Purge (other than the petty bickering and tit-for-tat crap going on throughout the episode) isn't so much what Sam or Dean said--I didn't disagree with either of them, per se, although I do think there were many better ways to say it--but there's seems to have been no follow through with either of their purges.  I would've preferred more than "I'm proud of us" and "I lied" as a follow through is all.

[rue721]

Dean had been sitting alone in the kitchen drinking and trying to justify himself to himself, so of course he was going to come out with some bullshit in that conversation. I agree that he doesn't actually believe he has/had the moral high ground. But I think that's what he was trying to convince himself of and he was desperate and plastered enough to buy it, at least for a second there, or at least enough to float that ~theory~ to Sam. Which I actually think is pretty unlike him, he's usually a lot more self-aware than that. Way back in Dream a Little Dream of Me, he tried to bullshit himself similarly and couldn't, and I think that kind of self-awareness is pretty much normal for him. I agree that he was written as pretty OOC and was also handed the idiot ball through most of The Purge.

 

For Sam, I think things just escalated during the conversation. I think he started getting pissed that he wasn't getting through to Dean, so he lashed out in frustration, by being as mean as he could. IA that he doesn't actually think that Dean is doing more harm than good, but I think he's afraid that more harm than good is being done in *his* (Sam's) name. I think he's desperate to wash off all the blood he thinks is on his hands and he's frustrated with Dean that Dean's just painting more blood on them -- and refusing to acknowledge it.

 

I think what's important about this conversation in terms of what's happening now is, imo it confirmed to Sam that (in Sam's POV) Dean doesn't get him, but that he does get Dean. (I don't think Dean thinks there's really anything to "get," that they know each other inside out). I also think that it confirmed to Sam that Dean needs him -- not just in a "because he loves him" kind of way, but literally *needs* him in order to keep going. Imo at this point, Sam is realizing he's going to have to step up regardless of what Dean says/wants. I think this conversation is a big part of what makes Sam realize that he's the one who needs to steer the bus now.

Edited February 9, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

 

 

I get what Dean's saying--I fucked up, I get it, but it was a fucked up situation and I did the best I could at the time and it's time you stop beating me up over it. And I get what Sam was saying--you just can't keep choosing my life over others because I'm the one that has to live with the consequences of those choices not you and you don't get to choose when or whether I get over it.

 

Sam said "as long you aren't the one doing the sacrificing" which is laughably untrue and provably false.  Even with the intrepretation that Sam really meant Dean didn't suffer any consequences that is also not true. Dean didn't suffer the SAME consequences as Sam. Sam didn't actually kill Kevin and he's not even really responsible for what happened to Kevin. That is all on Dean because of the choice he made and that he kept on believing Gadreel that Sam would die if Gadreel left Sam's body.  Dean never blamed anyone but himself for Kevin's death. He sought to right that wrong as best he could.

 

To me it's akin Soulless Sam purposefully allowing Dean to get vamped. SS didn't suffer any consequences for what happened to Dean but he made that choice for Dean. Sam is given a pass for that because he was soulless even though he remembers that he did it. Sam never even seemed particularly guilt-ridden over what happened to Dean. 

 

Sam didn't look for Kevin and that choice resulted in Kevin being held against his will by Crowley. If Sam had looked for and possibly found Kevin, Crowley doesn't kill Kevin's girlfriend after she's been possessed. Sam had the consequence of feeling guilty for what happened just like Dean did with Kevin.

 

So to me, both have done things that have hurt people but none of it outweighs what they have done to help humanity overall.

 

 

ink what's important about this conversation in terms of what's happening now is, imo it confirmed to Sam that (in Sam's POV) Dean doesn't get him, but that he does get Dean. (I don't think Dean thinks there's really anything to "get," that they know each other inside out). I also think that it confirmed to Sam that Dean needs him -- not just in a "because he loves him" kind of way, but literally *needs* him in order to keep going. Imo at this point, Sam is realizing he's going to have to step up regardless of what Dean says/wants. I think this conversation is a big part of what makes Sam realize that he's the one who needs to steer the bus now.

 

 

I don't think the conversation in the Purge is even remotely in Sam's mind anymore.  He told Dean "He lied" about that conversation when Dean was dying in 9.23. So was he lying when he said that in the Purge or was he lying when he said "I lied.". 

 

IMO it was easy for Sam to say those things out of anger when Dean wasn't backtracking because Dean did believe he made the right decision to save Sam's life and he would do it again. And to say it when Dean isn't bleeding to death. 

 

IMO Dean's felt betrayed because Sam sat there and told him he would not have saved Dean's life if the circumstances were exactly the same.  That's a heavy blow to have the person that he raised and protected all his life tell him that Dean's life was not worth saving. That's what Dean probably heard  even if Sam didn't say it.

 

I can fanwank that it took Dean actually almost dying (and eventually dying) in Sam's arms for Sam to realize just how much he needed and couldn't live without Dean too and why he was willing to conjure Crowley to set things right which is in direct opposition to Sam telling Death NO MORE DEALS. 

 

Sam could have killed demon!Dean but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Was that because he couldn't live without Dean? Was that because he thought Dean wanted to be human again, even though demon!Dean said he liked the disease?  Was he wrong to de-demon!Dean against his will? 

Edited February 9, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Sam said "as long you aren't the one doing the sacrificing" which is laughably untrue and provably false.  Even with the intrepretation that Sam really meant Dean didn't suffer any consequences that is also not true. Dean didn't suffer the SAME consequences as Sam. Sam didn't actually kill Kevin and he's not even really responsible for what happened to Kevin. That is all on Dean because of the choice he made and that he kept on believing Gadreel that Sam would die if Gadreel left Sam's body.  Dean never blamed anyone but himself for Kevin's death. He sought to right that wrong as best he could.

 

To me it's akin Soulless Sam purposefully allowing Dean to get vamped. SS didn't suffer any consequences for what happened to Dean but he made that choice for Dean. Sam is given a pass for that because he was soulless even though he remembers that he did it. Sam never even seemed particularly guilt-ridden over what happened to Dean. 

 

Sam didn't look for Kevin and that choice resulted in Kevin being held against his will by Crowley. If Sam had looked for and possibly found Kevin, Crowley doesn't kill Kevin's girlfriend after she's been possessed. Sam had the consequence of feeling guilty for what happened just like Dean did with Kevin.

 

So to me, both have done things that have hurt people but none of it outweighs what they have done to help humanity overall.

 

Sigh. Yes, they both have done wrong and right. My entire point was that each have a valid point of view and just can't see the other right then. There was no blaming Dean here or suggesting that Dean was solely to blame for everything and I never said that I thought Dean didn't suffer any consequences. I think this is how Sam was feeling in this episode. From Sam's perspective, it seems like Dean didn't. Dean didn't have an angel stuck inside him for months wiping his memory and doing Chuck only knows what else that Sam doesn't remember, nor was it Dean's hands that killed Kevin. So, from Sam's perspective Dean got what he wanted--Sam alive--and wasn't all that damaged by it other than his own guilt. But then Dean flat out says he'd do it all again and it was the right thing...if you look at it from Sam's perspective, it would be rather frustrating, I think. Doesn't make what Sam said actual truth, but what Sam thought was truth in that moment of anger and frustration.

 

I think Dean has a very valid point of view too. He was faced with an impossible messed up situation and made a choice that went to hell in the end. What's done is done and can't be undone. I don't believe that Dean truly thinks that what he did was "right" nor do I think he would do the same thing over again, but he does wish Sam would just forgive him already so maybe he can forgive himself a little. But again, neither can see where the other is coming from so they act like petty little children rather than actually moving forward.

 

Personally, I don't see the vampire situation exactly the same, there are similarities though. They both did something with the knowledge the other wouldn't want it and also knowing it wasn't "right"--hence the lying, IMO--the big difference is Sam wasn't fully Sam when he let Dean be turned, but Dean was fully Dean when he made the decision to put Gadreel inside of Sam. But, Sam held himself responsible for what he did when he was soulless once he got his soul back and apologized to Dean for it. Here, Dean is not only not apologizing, but saying he'd do it all again.

[supposebly]

 

Was he wrong to de-demon!Dean against his will?

 

I don't think so. It's real Dean's worst nightmare, and he was grateful.

So I would compare it to soulless Sam. Just because your soulless/demonized brother says so, doesn't mean you shouldn't do everything to get him back to normal. Because that's what your normal brother would want.

 

ETA: They both took a huge risk in that the normal version might have been damaged beyond repair. In case of Sam, that even happened but that part isn't on Dean but on Cas. The jury is still out how de-demonizing Dean might damage him but at this point, for humanity, it's probably better.

Despite their flaws and messed-up motivations, it's still better for humanity not to have DemonDean and SoullessSam running around. Although I would watch the crap out of that show. For a while at least. LeviathanSam and Dean were very amusing.

Edited February 9, 2015 by supposebly