All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[Aeryn13]

If they had changed it around, it wouldn`t necessarily be Sam they kidnapped, it could be Dean or both of them. Only the setting of the Season 11 Finale made Sam the victim of opportunity, if the Season had started differently and they were after both only now, that isn`t the case anymore. Dean could be included in this story.  

[Katy M]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

If they had changed it around, it wouldn`t necessarily be Sam they kidnapped, it could be Dean or both of them. Only the setting of the Season 11 Finale made Sam the victim of opportunity, if the Season had started differently and they were after both only now, that isn`t the case anymore. Dean could be included in this story.  

I knew someone was going to call me on that. But, I was trying to change as little as possible with just changing the timeline to fit my theory that they "did the season backwards." But, actually now, Dean's file is the one that Ketch was given to kill. 

[rue721]

20 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Yeah, I didn't really mean for her to be joining in on the torture.  Just knowing about it and coming in at the tail end. Maybe even being the one to get them to stop, but not for Sam, personally, just because torture is wrong in general.  Then, Sam would have seen her, not known all that and thought she was actively involved. 

They did something similar on Vampire Diaries, where (I think) it was meant to be confusing for the character AND the audience whether the character's mother was actually involved in his torture (through magic of some kind, because she was also dead) or if she was just a hallucination brought in by the torturers to mess with him even more.

That said, it was an easier trick for that show to pull, because in that case, the mother had been established as pretty callous toward her kids, like the show had already put in flashbacks to her being complicit in her kids being beaten (by their dad) when they were children, etc -- so IMO it wasn't such a huge stretch that she would be complicit in someone hurting them as adults. In fact, she had already been complicit in her current BF going after them anyway.

I'm not sure if the show could have plausibly made Mary as harsh as all that. Although at the same time, I was also expecting Sam and Dean to be more wary of Mary and more worried about winning her over than they actually were, so I dunno.

Edited April 11, 2017 by rue721

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I knew someone was going to call me on that. But, I was trying to change as little as possible with just changing the timeline to fit my theory that they "did the season backwards." But, actually now, Dean's file is the one that Ketch was given to kill. 

Mary really didn't even need to be resurrected at all to have it be the boys vs BMoL. Nothing about the story of the BMoL attempting to recruit Dean and Sam would change UNLESS  Mary's sole purpose was to give Sam an emotional reason to join and Sam is the emotional reason for Dean to join. 

[Katy M]

7 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I'm not sure if the show could have plausibly made Mary as harsh as all that. Although at the same time, I was also expecting Sam and Dean to be more wary of Mary and more worried about winning her over than they actually were, so I dunno.

I probably didn't explain that well, because I didn't think out all the details. But, I wasn't really meaning for her to be complicit in hurting Sam or Dean.  Just kind of wary of them, wondering if they were the enemy.  After Sam got let go, the season would have proceeded basically as is, except Mary would be fully on the BMOL side, not having much, if any, contact with Sam and Dean, and the BMOLs would still be trying to recruit the hunters.  Instead of having the excuse of Toni going rogue, they would have made up some other stupid excuse that Sam would be stupid enough to buy, because, let's face it, he's pretty easy to con.  Then, the BMOLs would declare war on SAm and Dean, and that's probably the time Mary would realize she would need to get out, then she would go to Sam and Dean and now we have our reunion, because all along in the season she was learning that the BMOLs lied to her.

[trxr4kids]

So I was thinking the other day about Death, the character, not death in general, then thinking about the weird reaper to angel retcon. I wondered, in no particular order as follows......

Surely the Horsemen's names, War, Famine, Pestilence and Death, were titles not actually their names.  

If Death had a successor (Billie), did the other horsemen?

How are they chosen?  Dance! Dance! Revolution style or psychic kid death match style?

Does Billie have a successor? If so who? If not why? I mean you can't stop death. ; )

Since reapers are a classification of angels I'll assume (ya I know) they were created by Chuck and then assigned to Death, making them Death's angels which leads me to wish think Death's name is Charlie, making them Charlie's Angels! 

I have no thoughts  really I have no thoughts about the rest of the Horsemen's names though but maybe after a rewatch of their episodes I'll have a delusion an epiphany!

Edited April 13, 2017 by trxr4kids
That strike through text feature amuses me to no end and I'm shamelessly abusing it since I noticed it

[ILoveReading]

On 2017-04-11 at 5:21 PM, Katy M said:

I knew someone was going to call me on that. But, I was trying to change as little as possible with just changing the timeline to fit my theory that they "did the season backwards." But, actually now, Dean's file is the one that Ketch was given to kill. 

To further your scenario based on what we learned about the final sacrifice needed to be able to join, the BMoLs task Mary with killing one her sons.  She gets to pick, giving her a Sophies Choice storyline.  She looks into her sons and realizes that everything the Brits told her was a lie and comes to see the good they do, realizes the Brits played her and then in the end learns the truth and Sam, Dean and Mary team up and send them packing.

This would have made more sense.  I still don't understand the reasoning behind the Brits logic at the start of the season.

Lady Mother of the year decides to leave her child and go overseas on the orders of "the old men.".   Apparently they felt the situation had gotten out of hand and they needed to stop in and take over.  They want to rid the US of monsters and recruit American Hunters.     Okay, that I could understand but they apparently decided  the best time do this when the world was hours away from ending. 

Then Lady nothing I do makes sense, wants Sam to give up the name of name of American hunters, and the best way to do this is by kidnap and torture.

I thought when Lady Tony showed up that maybe they wanted Sam and Dean dead because they felt they were dangerous.   The recruitment drive/we want to work with you seemed to come out of left field and didn't fit the scenario set up at the end of s10 at all. 

3 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Does Billie have a successor? If so who? If not why? I mean you can't stop death. ; )

The biggest disappointment of s11.  No follow up to killing Death.    Dean as death would have been a cool story line, or if they didn't want an alt Dean, I also would have liked a Final Destination story where Death (character and in general) was stalking Dean. 

[DittyDotDot]

5 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Since reapers are a classification of angels I'll assume (ya I know) they were created by Chuck and then assigned to Death, making them Death's angels which leads me to wish think Death's name is Charlie, making them Charlie's Angels! 

Hee! 

5 hours ago, trxr4kids said:

Reason: That strike through text feature amuses me to no end and I'm shamelessly abusing it since I noticed it

Double HEE!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, bethy said:

Nice picture of the boys and Mary in this article - How the Henley Went from Workman's Undershirt to CW Staple. 

You know, I didn't appreciate it at the time the episode aired, (because I didn't realize Sam's ribs were broken) but JP's posture really conveys a lot in that picture: the way his left hand is gripping his arm and his right hand is cupping his elbow. 

[FlickChick]

16 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You know, I didn't appreciate it at the time the episode aired, (because I didn't realize Sam's ribs were broken) but JP's posture really conveys a lot in that picture: the way his left hand is gripping his arm and his right hand is cupping his elbow. 

I'm hoping that it is only "Sam" and not Jared whose ribs were broken.  Poor Jared has been through enough injuries. :(

[SueB]

It was Sam, not Jared. 

[catrox14]

17 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You know, I didn't appreciate it at the time the episode aired, (because I didn't realize Sam's ribs were broken) but JP's posture really conveys a lot in that picture: the way his left hand is gripping his arm and his right hand is cupping his elbow. 

I thought maybe Jared's shoulder was bothering him so he worked it into the performance.

I mean yes, he's healed from the broken shoulder but it might bother him from time to time. Especially doing all the stunts that he does.

[trxr4kids]

I was thinking about Mary and how she was in memorex heaven prior to now, presumably since season1 ep 9 Home since her being a ghost was mentioned. So is Missouri just the worst psychic ever or was she part of the *plot whether intentionally or not to manipulate Sam and Dean's life*? First she tells John the truth which sets him on his path and since she could seemingly read thoughts she had to have known what John would do with it, second she either doesn't sense or ignores both Mary and a poltergeist in a house for over 20 years, thirdly, she tells Sam and Dean that Mary destroyed herself fighting the poltergeist which can't be true since she went on to heaven. I'll ignore the way she acted toward Dean who was extremely emotionally vulnerable to avoid yet another tangent by me about it, you're welcome. ; )

*I don't think that's what the show intended at all but it would make much more sense if it were deliberate.

Also thinking of Home made me remember that at the end when John and Missouri talk he's aware that Sam has psychic power yet later in Salvation, over 10 episodes later, *he yells at Dean for not calling and telling him about Sam's visions*. Gee Mary is completely right, John was a wonderful father *insert eye roll*. I'm not saying he was the worst ever but geez wonderful is really a stretch even just based off of Dean's memories in Dark Side of Moon. I find it interesting that Mary didn't and hasn't asked questions about their childhood even after being given the journal. It seems to be a pattern with her in that she assumes she knows things that she doesn't and is able to willfully ignore anything contradictory to her beliefs.

*Note that he yells at Dean not Sam who is a grown and is presumably capable of making a phone call and even tying his own shoes.

Edited April 17, 2017 by trxr4kids

[Aeryn13]

I thought that for years after John left the show, they dragged the character through the mud in ways that made even me roll her eyes. He was always an interesting and vital character to me but I thought did terrible things and failed a lot as a father. But what the show did to him post-death bordered on absurd sometimes in the push to make Bobby the best father ever. Which isn`t what I saw onscreen but okay.

Yet this Season, they haven`t really touched on John much but by introducing Mary kinda raised his profile up again. Kinda funny IMO. Because good god, she looks like the worse person and parent now. The younger versions I like about equally but the older version it`s now John >>>> Mary for sure. Doubt that was intended in any way but hey, I think the character of John has earned it after the yearlong beating.

[trxr4kids]

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

He was always an interesting and vital character to me but I thought did terrible things and failed a lot as a father. But what the show did to him post-death bordered on absurd sometimes in the push to make Bobby the best father ever. Which isn`t what I saw onscreen but okay.

The thing about John as a father that to me was fascinating was that he acknowledged his issues ( acting like a drill sergeant, seeing evil everywhere, putting too much on Dean) but was incapable or unwilling to change tactics. I can sympathize with John as a character because his motives are clear to me even if I don't like his behavior that much, it's a huge contrast with how I feel about Mary now.

Bobby as father figure never made sense because we were shown early on that Pastor Jim was the one Dean was supposed to call if something happened, I would have loved to see him fleshed out as a character in flashbacks at least. The show really should have let the relationship between Bobby and Sam and Dean evolve after John's death instead of retconning a perfectly good character. I could watch Bobby and Rufus bicker all day but I never want to see another scene of Bobby giving horrible fatherly advice or life lectures.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I was thinking about Mary and how she was in memorex heaven prior to now, presumably since season1 ep 9 Home since her being a ghost was mentioned

IMO, Mary should have never been in Heaven at all and I have a head canon as to why she was never there. 

Technically she didn't sell her soul but she did make a deal with a demon to have John live in exchange for something Azazel wanted which was an innocent baby. IMO, that should have sent her to Hell. But that didn't seem to be the case. Given she supposedly burned herself out,  IMO she shouldn't even be anything at all, IMO her soul should have been obliterated in that process.  She should have ceased to exist in any kind of state.

But yet here she is, so how could that be?

Given that Amara couldn't create life but only destroy it, she couldn't have made Mary out of nothing.And IMO, Guck would not agree to bring her back to life.  IMO,  Heaven should have freaked out over Mary Winchester not being found when they did bed check and surely that would have set off every alarm like when Bobby got out, but it's never been shown that Heaven cared. Also, wouldn't Cas have gotten wind of a jailbreak?  Ash never found Mary in Heaven either.

Given the givens, my current headcanon is that Mary was never in Hell nor Memorex Heaven, but was in the Empty without her soul but with her own memories of Sam and Dean as little boys and her memory of John being a good husband. 

That's the only way I can reconcile her existence now and her cold manner with her children and her general weirdness.

[rue721]

44 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I find it interesting that Mary didn't and hasn't asked questions about their childhood even after being given the journal. It seems to be a pattern with her in that she assumes she knows things that she doesn't and is able to willfully ignore anything contradictory to her beliefs.

I also find it interesting that she doesn't ask. She has generally been very tentative about reconnecting with her old life. She also hasn't asked about John much or at all, either.

I think she feels like "ignorance is bliss." Like she can't handle knowing how/why things went to shit once she died, so she's just trying to pretend it didn't happen and move away from the whole mess as fast and as hard as she can.

[trxr4kids]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's the only way I can reconcile her existence now and her cold manner with her children and her general weirdness.

From pretty early on this season Mary reminded me of Dark Side of the Moon Mary in subtle and not so subtle ways. So you can imagine how not surprised I was that it was co written by Dabb.

[rue721]

9 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

The thing about John as a father that to me was fascinating was that he acknowledged his issues ( acting like a drill sergeant, seeing evil everywhere, putting too much on Dean) but was incapable or unwilling to change tactics. I can sympathize with John as a character because his motives are clear to me even if I don't like his behavior that much, it's a huge contrast with how I feel about Mary now.

I think Mary is just a weak person. John was stronger, so he could face things more head-on.

But John's strength had its limits, too, so he was able to keep moving forward, but ONLY if he used the tactics that he did. He was able to get through the day, but only by doing it in his own (not always that great) way.

Edited April 17, 2017 by rue721

[trxr4kids]

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think she feels like "ignorance is bliss." Like she can't handle knowing how/why things went to shit once she died, so she's just trying to pretend it didn't happen and move away from the whole mess as fast and as hard as she can.

Yeah, I get that vibe too which is why it bugs me that her working with the BMoL contradicts the running away from the mess part.

 

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think Mary is just a weak person. John was stronger, so he could face things more head-on.

But John's strength had its limits, too, so he was able to keep moving forward, but ONLY if he used the tactics that he did. He was able to get through the day, but only by doing it in his own (not always that great) way.

I completely agree. I'm just not very invested in or sympathetic to Mary at this point except in regards to how what she does effects Sam and Dean, which is sad to me since I think it's the opposite of what the show intended.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think Mary is just a weak person. John was stronger, so he could face things more head-on.

I don't think Mary is weak. I think she was a terrified young woman of 19 who made a really horrible decision. I think she probably should have been sent to Hell for said decision but IMO, she's is not weak by nature. IMO she seemed capable enough as a hunter and kept hunting even after getting married. Given the Mary we have now (barring my headcanon) Mary is as stubborn as John, and does what she wants to do no matter what.

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Given the Mary we have now (barring my headcanon) Mary is as stubborn as John, and does what she wants to do no matter what.

I disagree, I think that she seems very weak (emotionally & psychologically) based on how she's been behaving since Amara brought her back.

[trxr4kids]

37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Given the Mary we have now (barring my headcanon) Mary is as stubborn as John, and does what she wants to do no matter what

I think Mary is stubbornly naive. She would rather not face reality and live in this weird fantasy she seems to have that she's going to fix things. She wont really connect with her sons because she would have to face some hard truths IMO. That to me is pretty weak as @rue721 said.

ETA: Of course that's mostly speculation on my part because we haven't really been given that much to go on with her since most of what she does contradicts what she says IMO.

Edited April 17, 2017 by trxr4kids

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

I think Mary is stubbornly naive. She would rather not face reality and live in this weird fantasy she seems to have that she's going to fix things. She wont really connect with her sons because she would have to face some hard truths IMO. That to me is pretty weak as @rue721 said.

 

I don't think she is in a fantasy place in her head, if by fantasy you mean working with the BMoL. They want to eradicate all the monsters from the world. Hunters seem to want the same thing eventually I would think, but the difference is the methods. It isn't realistic but I don't think it's fantastical thinking either. If it is fantastical thinking then Sam and Dean have fallen into the same fantastical thinking

IMO, Mary chose the wrong group to work with but I don't think she believes she can fix whatever she broke in the past. I think she wants to kill ALL the things she can before she dies again, whenever that happens, to make up for whatever she can that ruined her sons lives and alleviates her own guilt. Other than that I'm not sure what the fantasy would be for Mary. 

I don't think she's afraid to face her children. I think she faced them and she has flat out rejected them. I don't think she cares what they have to say or think.  And IMO she doesn't care about their lives, as far as I can tell.

So I guess to me that doesn't make her weak as much as it makes her an asshole.

Edited April 17, 2017 by catrox14

[trxr4kids]

I think the fantasy is that she's working with the BMoL and hunting for Sam and Dean which is pretty fantastical if you ask me since she has no idea who they are and what they want and has as you said rejected them. I think Mary is a head in the sand kind of person, she just doesn't see or even want to see anything that challenges her beliefs. I guess it's sort of in character considering she blissfully ignored the demon deal she made in that she took no precautions and apparently didn't even didn't think about trying to figure out what the demon was gonna do in 10 years but had time to hunt random monsters. I see her as a self centered person who lacks empathy which I consider morally weak. But like I said my thoughts about about why Mary does anything are pretty much speculation because the show hasn't really fleshed the character out enough for me to be sure of anything.

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think she's afraid to face her children. I think she faced them and she has flat out rejected them. I don't think she cares what they have to say or think.  And IMO she doesn't care about their lives, as far as I can tell.

I don't think she's afraid to face her children either, I think she's afraid to face the reality that she's alive, her kids are grown, her dreams of a normal happy life went up in flames and it was as far as she knows her own damn fault. So she's moved on to her next likely unattainable dream and she's willfully ignoring the warning signs along the way just like before. Maybe that's supposed to poorly parallel season 4 Sam, really who knows anymore. 

Like I said before somewhere, for several seasons I've felt watching the show and trying to figure stuff out is often like doing Mad Lids without knowing if you need to fill in animal or verb and guess what the two aren't interchangeable show.

Anyway as a side note, I find it interesting that John was a much more fleshed out and relatable character regardless of being mostly loathed.

[catrox14]

Just now, trxr4kids said:

Anyway as a side note, I find it interesting that John was a much more fleshed out and relatable character regardless of being mostly loathed.

I think maybe that's why he is mostly loathed because they actually did flesh him out pretty well in the little time he was around. I mean I really disliked John from Home to Faith but Faith put him in forever loathing space.  That said, I would love to see John back mostly because I want to see Dean give him a piece of his mind. 

Mary seems to be loathed because either she is intended to be exactly as we see on screen or she is not fleshed out enough to understand fully her POV.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think she is in a fantasy place in her head, if by fantasy you mean working with the BMoL.

I think she's diving so deep into the BMOL as an escapism thing, a way of stepping into a pre-made identity that is defined (by the BMOL) as being competent, strong, heroic, etc. Everything that Mary Winchester, Sam and Dean's mother and John's wife, is not.

Like, she isn't Mary Winchester, long-dead, hapless, and helpless creator of catastrophic demon deals anymore...she's now BMOL Operative Mary Winchester, ridding the world of ALL MONSTERS and (ostensibly) the best at it that her handler has ever seen.

I think she's too weak to deal with reality. Not even trying to be hard on her for it, because she's got a tough reality. But apparently, her way of dealing with something that's difficult for her to handle is to just avoid it. (Examples:  sons in present day; demon deal in the 1970s).

[RulerofallIsurvey]

21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought maybe Jared's shoulder was bothering him so he worked it into the performance.

I mean yes, he's healed from the broken shoulder but it might bother him from time to time. Especially doing all the stunts that he does.

Doesn't seem to be bothering him at all here:

This was after the dislocated shoulder incident.  (Listen carefully, someone mentions the shoulder.)  I think it was just damn good acting.  He's a much better actor than people seem to give him credit.  

[catrox14]

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I mean yes, he's healed from the broken shoulder but it might bother him from time to time. Especially doing all the stunts that he does.

 

37 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Doesn't seem to be bothering him at all here:

 

This was after the dislocated shoulder incident.  (Listen carefully, someone mentions the shoulder.)  I think it was just damn good acting.  He's a much better actor than people seem to give him credit.  

 It was more than a dislocated shoulder. It was broken and he had to have surgery to fix it. Shoulder injuries take A LONG time to fully recovery. Often up to a full year and then some.  Poor Jared had to work with throughout the   first 3 episodes of s10 in a sling. 

It's not unreasonable, to wonder if an injury so severe that it required surgery,  might cause him some residual pain from time to time. Jared had to  sit tied up in a chair with his shoulder being pulled at an uncomfortable angle for a long time for that episode. Misha was  sick as a dog in s7 when they shot his scenes for the Leviathan breakdown and was puking between takes. That probably served to make Cas look even worse than he already did. It's not unreasonable nor is it impugning the actor  skills to think maybe the actor works that into a performance, if needed.  That's literally all I was saying.

I wasn't bashing Jared's acting in the least here.

Edited April 17, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wasn't bashing Jared's acting in the least here.

I never said you did.  It seems to me in that video, (which was a year and half - nearly two years ago) his shoulder was healed up fine.  That's all I was saying.  

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I never said you did.  It seems to me in that video, (which was a year and half - nearly two years ago) his shoulder was healed up fine.  That's all I was saying.  

Since you mentioned Jared's acting not being appreciated in response to the comments that maybe his shoulder was bothering him and could have been in the performance, that it was about his acting.  Did I misunderstand?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Since you mentioned Jared's acting not being appreciated in response to the comments that maybe his shoulder was bothering him and could have been in the performance, that it was about his acting.  Did I misunderstand?

Over all, I see many posts praising JA's acting.  (Well deserved, IMO - although to be honest, I have a good friend who, when I can get her to watch Supernatural, she laughs at the 'horrible' Dean acting and says "It's a good thing he's pretty.")  And not as many posts praising JP's acting.  Therefore, I think it is entirely reasonable to for me to say that JP is a better actor than many people (on this forum) seem to give him credit.  Is there a problem with that?

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Over all, I see many posts praising JA's acting.  (Well deserved, IMO - although to be honest, I have a good friend who, when I can get her to watch Supernatural, she laughs at the 'horrible' Dean acting and says "It's a good thing he's pretty.")  And not as many posts praising JP's acting.  Therefore, I think it is entirely reasonable to for me to say that JP is a better actor than many people (on this forum) seem to give him credit.  Is there a problem with that?

I would agree with this! IMO (and of course it is just that) Jensen Ackles is the most proficient actor on the show. Then it would be Jared and finally Misha and Mark. I feel that due to Jensen's superior acting skills he often overshadows Jared and people don't realise he is actually as good as he is as a result. It can often be a case of Jensen receiving all the praise without people acknowledging the likes of Jared are also quite good at their job. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It can often be a case of Jensen receiving all the praise without people acknowledging the likes of Jared are also quite good at their job. 

This is exactly what I was trying to say!  Thank you.  

[Wayward Son]

Taken from the Dean Winchester thread 

 

@ilovedean27 @ILoveReading @SueB @RulerofallIsurvey

I would say my feelings on season twelve so far are quite mixed. I was rather enjoying it and had mostly praise up until Stuck In the Middle (With You) 

I recently rewatched and still love the mini arc of the opening three episodes. I thought all of the characters had their moment to shine (Dean got to take out Toni, Cas got to be intimidating and of great help, Sam got to display inner strength and endurance by withstanding torture). The beginnings of the relationship with Mary and the brothers were wonderfully played. I feel J2 and Samantha Smith all sold the awkwardness and hesistancy on how to deal  with this new situation well. Even when the arc concluded I could see where they were all coming from. I could feel sympathy for Sam and Dean being separated again from the mum they had lived all their lives without. However, I could also understand Mary needing some time to adjust. All in all it was probably my favourite set of mytharc heavy episodes in seasons. 

American Nightmare was another one that I enjoyed. It was an enjoyable old fashioned monster of the week episode and I loved its link to Sam's season two storyline. 

I was was not a fan of The One You've Been Waiting For though. I should probably rewatch to try and find redeeming points as I haven't watched since it aired. My negative view is shaped by the fact I recall finding it disappointing that an episode advertised as a sequel to Everybody Hates Hitler lacked a focus on the guest characters that helped make it such a delightful episode. The golem didn't appear and Aaron appeared for a minute at most. In addition to this, I was rather repulsed by the clown Hitler characterisation. 

Asa Fox however was an episode that I enjoyed. Like American Nightmare I feel it was a great old fashioned episode that helped highlight the history of the show. Plus I love it when we see the Winchester's highlighting with the rest of the hunting community. 

I lost some enthuasiam when Rock Never Dies and LOTUS aired. It was to be expected though as the Lucifer storyline is currently my least favourite episode of the show. 

I then enjoyed the the first four episodes after the mid season finale. First Blood featured some kick ass Winchester's and I adored the reunion scene with the brothers and Cas and Mary. My only complaint was the ridiculous depowering of Cas (as if he couldn't hunt a vampire nest) in order to serve his the world needs the Winchester speech at the end. LIly Saunders Has No Regrets featured a compelling backstory for the guest character, and it served to show us just how much Cas has changed due to his relationship with the brothers. Remembering Dean was a brilliant Dean centric episode and I feel it did a wonderful job of portraying Sam and Deans perspective. Stuck in the Middle (With You) was a great ensemble piece that gave everyone involved something to do.

For me my excitement began to wane upon the airing of Family Feud. I think though this is largely due to my viewing preference. My favourite characters are Castiel and Sam, something I don't exactly attempt to hide haha. Therefore, I have two main reasons for feeling disconnected. 

 

1) The show has completely sidelined Castiel since this episode. In the six episodes since, he has starred in one episode for a total of 5 minutes at most. His storyline in that one episode was irrelevant to the main storyline. 

2) I have found Sam and his motivation hard to understand since he went from distrusting the Man of Letters to "sign me up" in the space of an episode. I've seen lots of posts lately about how he is getting all the kills. However, none of that matters to me if it comes at the cost of the character being relatable IMO.

So those are the main reasons I've been more negative about the season lately. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From The Memory Remains thread:

9 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It would be nice if they used a different method to take one out of the action so that the other can be the savior of the week.

And then there would be the inevitable complaints about some of those 'different methods' also. :)  But this got me thinking about the different methods that could be/have been used successfully in the past.  There's a physical injury (other than a hit on the head) like when Dean 'broke' his leg, or illness, like when Sam was sick from the trials.  Have they ever had one of the boys just get the damn flu?  Seriously?  With all those nasty motels and dubious eateries, you'd think they'd get dysentery at least once.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

1) The show has completely sidelined Castiel since this episode. In the six episodes since, he has starred in one episode for a total of 5 minutes at most. His storyline in that one episode was irrelevant to the main storyline... 

My favourite characters are Castiel and Sam, something I don't exactly attempt to hide haha. 

Heh. My fave is Dean and then I still like Cas but I feel kinda the same way. Cas literally disappeared from screen and Dean metaphorically. Statistically, they should have satisfied at least one of us.

This is like the "Bloodlines" of Seasons. Which stands to reason since Dabb is showrunner now and I think this was the type of show he really wanted to make. And both Lucifer and the BMOL are stories that interest him more than the show as it was.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

There's a physical injury (other than a hit on the head) like when Dean 'broke' his leg, or illness, like when Sam was sick from the trials.  Have they ever had one of the boys just get the damn flu?  Seriously?  With all those nasty motels and dubious eateries, you'd think they'd get dysentery at least once.  

I don't believe that they've ever had so much as a cold; at the most we've just seen them with a bad hangover. I agree that it would be refreshing to see them weakened by normal ailments rather than borderline concussions every other week. It might actually be pretty entertaining to see one of them laid up in the bunker having a sick day while the other reports in on the case of the week.

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

My only complaint was the ridiculous depowering of Cas (as if he couldn't hunt a vampire nest)

This was ridiculous to me as well. They write him as an over the top sad sack at times :(

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Over all, I see many posts praising JA's acting.  (Well deserved, IMO - although to be honest, I have a good friend who, when I can get her to watch Supernatural, she laughs at the 'horrible' Dean acting and says "It's a good thing he's pretty.")  And not as many posts praising JP's acting.  Therefore, I think it is entirely reasonable to for me to say that JP is a better actor than many people (on this forum) seem to give him credit.  Is there a problem with that?

Why would there be a problem with it? I don't think my comment implied that either.

I gotcha. I see now that you were using the opportunity with my response  to praise Jared's acting which I misunderstood as a direct reply and defense to my comment vs that you were just expanding and adding on to it.  Thanks for clarifying. I get it now.

[ilovedean27]

9 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Taken from the Dean Winchester thread 

 

@ilovedean27 @ILoveReading @SueB @RulerofallIsurvey

I would say my feelings on season twelve so far are quite mixed. I was rather enjoying it and had mostly praise up until Stuck In the Middle (With You) 

I recently rewatched and still love the mini arc of the opening three episodes. I thought all of the characters had their moment to shine (Dean got to take out Toni, Cas got to be intimidating and of great help, Sam got to display inner strength and endurance by withstanding torture). The beginnings of the relationship with Mary and the brothers were wonderfully played. I feel J2 and Samantha Smith all sold the awkwardness and hesistancy on how to deal  with this new situation well. Even when the arc concluded I could see where they were all coming from. I could feel sympathy for Sam and Dean being separated again from the mum they had lived all their lives without. However, I could also understand Mary needing some time to adjust. All in all it was probably my favourite set of mytharc heavy episodes in seasons. 

American Nightmare was another one that I enjoyed. It was an enjoyable old fashioned monster of the week episode and I loved its link to Sam's season two storyline. 

I was was not a fan of The One You've Been Waiting For though. I should probably rewatch to try and find redeeming points as I haven't watched since it aired. My negative view is shaped by the fact I recall finding it disappointing that an episode advertised as a sequel to Everybody Hates Hitler lacked a focus on the guest characters that helped make it such a delightful episode. The golem didn't appear and Aaron appeared for a minute at most. In addition to this, I was rather repulsed by the clown Hitler characterisation. 

Asa Fox however was an episode that I enjoyed. Like American Nightmare I feel it was a great old fashioned episode that helped highlight the history of the show. Plus I love it when we see the Winchester's highlighting with the rest of the hunting community. 

I lost some enthuasiam when Rock Never Dies and LOTUS aired. It was to be expected though as the Lucifer storyline is currently my least favourite episode of the show. 

I then enjoyed the the first four episodes after the mid season finale. First Blood featured some kick ass Winchester's and I adored the reunion scene with the brothers and Cas and Mary. My only complaint was the ridiculous depowering of Cas (as if he couldn't hunt a vampire nest) in order to serve his the world needs the Winchester speech at the end. LIly Saunders Has No Regrets featured a compelling backstory for the guest character, and it served to show us just how much Cas has changed due to his relationship with the brothers. Remembering Dean was a brilliant Dean centric episode and I feel it did a wonderful job of portraying Sam and Deans perspective. Stuck in the Middle (With You) was a great ensemble piece that gave everyone involved something to do.

For me my excitement began to wane upon the airing of Family Feud. I think though this is largely due to my viewing preference. My favourite characters are Castiel and Sam, something I don't exactly attempt to hide haha. Therefore, I have two main reasons for feeling disconnected. 

 

1) The show has completely sidelined Castiel since this episode. In the six episodes since, he has starred in one episode for a total of 5 minutes at most. His storyline in that one episode was irrelevant to the main storyline. 

2) I have found Sam and his motivation hard to understand since he went from distrusting the Man of Letters to "sign me up" in the space of an episode. I've seen lots of posts lately about how he is getting all the kills. However, none of that matters to me if it comes at the cost of the character being relatable IMO.

So those are the main reasons I've been more negative about the season lately. 

All good points, some I agree with.

Only things I'll add. (Reasons why I'm dissatisfied with this season.)

1. In the second half of the season, Dean seems to be just drifting from episode to episode.

2. The Lucifer/Kelly/Nephilim storyline is my least favorite of any storyline in the history of the show.

3. I don't like Sam, so I don't really care about his storyline, but I agree that it's difficult to understand his motivation with regards to working with the BMOL.

4. I found the first few episodes interesting and I was more than ready to see how the relationship between Dean and Mary would evolve, but I've since lost any sympathy I once had for Mary, so the character and her relationship with Dean no longer interest me.

5. "Regarding Dean" is my favorite episode of the season, so far. I also liked "Asa Fox" and certain Dean related moments in a few other episodes, but for the most part, most episodes haven't been all that great, in my opinion.

6. I like Cas, but unfortunately, he's tied up in the Lucifer/Kelly/Nephilim/Angels storyline, and as I said earlier, I dislike that storyline. It would be nice if they included Cas in more MOTW episodes.

Maybe the last run of episodes will change my mind, but if not, hopefully next season will be better.

Overall, for me, this season has been less than satisfying. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

21 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I don't believe that they've ever had so much as a cold; at the most we've just seen them with a bad hangover. I agree that it would be refreshing to see them weakened by normal ailments rather than borderline concussions every other week. It might actually be pretty entertaining to see one of them laid up in the bunker having a sick day while the other reports in on the case of the week.

Right? I mean, neither one of them - under normal circumstances - is supposed to be 'superhuman', so why wouldn't they get a stomach bug?  Or, with Cas without his wings and able to 'fly' in at a moments' prayer to heal them, one sprains his ankle and is laid up for an extra couple days?  They could both still be in the episode - the one with the sprained ankle does the research, while the other one treks through the woods or digs the grave.  That would actually make more sense than the continual 'whacked on the head with no long term effects' method the show has used so far.  

48 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I lost some enthuasiam when Rock Never Dies and LOTUS aired.

For me, for some reason - as much as I enjoyed Rick Springfield - he really seemed to bring the story line down.  I wish they'd used him better.  Like, why did we never get One 'Jessie's Girl' reference?  

I agree with the Sam and his motivation to join up with the BMoL.  I definitely wished for more/better clarification.  I don't think we're going to get it at this point though.

I think Cas is going to be featured strongly in the resolution to the season - so I don't think you'll be disappointed there.

Mainly, I am just really enjoying Sam and Dean not being at odds this season.  

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

For me, for some reason - as much as I enjoyed Rick Springfield - he really seemed to bring the story line down.  I wish they'd used him better.  Like, why did we never get One 'Jessie's Girl' reference

I don't fault Rick Springfield for that. I thought he did a good job myself as Lucifer. The problem is with the Lucifer SL in general existing at all.

I think they just wanted to keep it ALL LUCIFER ALL THE TIME but they couldn't get Pellegrino but they didn't want us to forget LUCIFER LUCIFER LUCIFER.  Blah. So tired of Lucifer.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 11:18 PM, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You know, I didn't appreciate it at the time the episode aired, (because I didn't realize Sam's ribs were broken) but JP's posture really conveys a lot in that picture: the way his left hand is gripping his arm and his right hand is cupping his elbow. 

The "rare woman's Henley? I have a bunch of woman's Henley's, that I got from L.L. Bean. But I like the article. Thanks RulerofallIisurvey!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't fault Rick Springfield for that. I thought he did a good job myself as Lucifer.

I don't know whether it was the writing or Springfield's interpretation - but I just didn't find his iteration as intimidating as Pellegrino's.   And Lucifer should definitely be intimidating, imo.  

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know whether it was the writing or Springfield's interpretation - but I just didn't find his iteration as intimidating as Pellegrino's.   And Lucifer should definitely be intimidating, imo.  

I'm not sure that iteration was supposed to be intimidating per se. I  think he was going through his tantrum phase of "I'm going to break all of daddy's toys and make you watch". That's why I thought Springfield did a good enough job.

I thought Misha's Lucifer was the more, snarky devious Lucifer. 

[Mick Lady]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Technically she didn't sell her soul but she did make a deal with a demon to have John live in exchange for something Azazel wanted which was an innocent baby. IMO, that should have sent her to Hell. But that didn't seem to be the case. Given she supposedly burned herself out,  IMO she shouldn't even be anything at all, IMO her soul should have been obliterated in that process.  She should have ceased to exist in any kind of state.

Wow catrox! I never even considered this. Great insight!

Edited April 17, 2017 by Mick Lady

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Technically she didn't sell her soul but she did make a deal with a demon to have John live in exchange for something Azazel wanted which was an innocent baby. IMO, that should have sent her to Hell.

Has there ever been, on this show, a case of someone going to Hell who didn't sell their soul though?  I just don't remember.

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Has there ever been, on this show, a case of someone going to Hell who didn't sell their soul though?  I just don't remember.

Yes. Crowley.

When he was Fergus he made a deal with a demon for 3 extra inches of his dick. He only went to Hell after he died. If it had been a deal with a crossroads demon he would have been taken in 10 years by Hellhound.

[auntvi]

Bobby went to Hell and that was after Crowley gave him his soul back. Of course Bobby wasn't supposed to go to Hell - Crowley grabbed him and sent him to Hell.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Yes. Crowley.

When he was Fergus he made a deal with a demon for 3 extra inches of his dick. He only went to Hell after he died. If it had been a deal with a crossroads demon he would have been taken in 10 years by Hellhound.

I always figured that was a deal with a crossroads demon.  According to the superwiki: "Crowley says he was a 17th century Scottish tailor named Fergus MacLeod from Canisbay who sold his soul in life for three more inches in length on his penis, to hit "double digits.""