All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[SueB]

Sending you a PM.

[SueB]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 

1) That's still interpretation though.

2) Dean was shouting at either Amara or Chuck. Supposing he was shouting at Chuck, that shouting was undermined as soon as Chuck told him to stop confusing him with John.  2a)And it wasn't Dean's words that got him to come to Earth. It was Metatron who shamed Chuck into going back. Literally none of it had to do with Dean. Chuck was fine with Dean remaining a demon as long as Amara was locked away. 

3) Well, I'm glad that head!canon works, for you.  It's a pleasant fiction. 

4) IMO, if the show wanted an EXPLICIT Dean as Michael reference they most certainly failed to do that and there is ZERO reason for the show to not have offered that especially given how explicit the show was WRT to Sam and Lucifer.  I don't believe that was the intention in Dean's arc in the least. It's not really a great trade up when the show devalued Michael to the point that a ferret would have been upgrade from Michael at that point.  I know you really do work to find the most optimistic viewpoints but honestly that doesn't really wash for me.

5) As to the parkbench conversation, IMO that was just another case of Chuck priming Dean for the big dump of responsibility. Just like John did in s2.  It didn't matter that Dean told him to fuck off to Belize or wherever, 5a) Chuck still ended up putting the weight of the world on Dean's shoulders.  Some see it as Chuck loving and trusting Dean so much that he trusts the world to him and others see it as Chuck once more dumping the responsibility for mankind onto Dean's shoulders without ASKING Dean if he wanted to do it. Just like John never asked Dean. So how is that treating Dean any better than John? 

Numbering and emphasis mine. 

1) Of course it is. I never meant to imply otherwise.

2) Not sure what shouting you are talking about?  At the end of Don't Call Me Shurley he was shouting at Amara (even though he used the term dick). We had that confirmation from Robbie on the commentary (I think it was commentary, may have been an interview). But God saying Dean thinks he's a dick (in All in the Family) is just because he KNOWS Dean thinks he's a dick.  God, in the SPN-verse, is all-knowing, all-seeing, and BTW Dean doesn't remotely hide it.  And Dean didn't deny he was right. So... Dean thinks God is a dick. Pretty true to Dean's character.  
2a) I never said Dean got God to come back to earth.  Metatron convinced God to show up. Dean convinced God not to give himself up to Amara and be the one placed in the cage.  Dean didn't think that plan would work and Amara would destroy the planet/people anyway.  What Dean did is convince God to actually take ON his sister. To fight.  

4) I don't think the show remotely intended to imply the Michael reference.  That's a construct of my own. I'm simply, in the "All Season's thread", comparing how the last big God-class event went down in S5 versus how it went down in S11.  So many people fuss that S5 ended up being a massive hero moment for only Sam (I totally disagree) but there are complaints he should have gotten a chance to be Michael.  Personally I never WANTED him to be Michael.  Michael was a douche, even when powerful.  But in S11, rather than become a vessel for a powerful being, I'm saying God ended up having Dean be His representative for Creation.  And God acknowledged that in We Happy Few.  I think that's quite the upgrade.

5) I think the park bench conversation is where Dean changed God's plan from "sacrifice myself" to "fight Amara and put her back into the cage".  
5a) It sucks to be Dean?  Seriously though, it's like John McCain in "Live Free or Die Hard".  Dean is "that guy".  And God knows that. God has faith in him.  John Winchester did, in fact, help to TURN Dean into that guy.  Which is a sucky childhood for Dean.  But it makes Dean a Big Damn Hero.  And God knows that Dean gets meaning and purpose from saving people.  So, yeah, it's waaaaaayyy above Dean's paygrade.  And Dean didn't really "take" the job.  Not like felt the responsibility when John told him he may have to kill Sammy. Dean heard what God said and unless we are told differently, pretty much thinks God is nuts.  And running out on the universe again.  He doesn't act like a person who feels like he's literally been giving a "mission from God". No matter WHAT God said, Dean just is like "Yeah, NOPE."  Dean doesn't think it's possible. Although WE know that if you look at it, he and Sam have been saving the planet for 12 years.  So... yes Dean, you and Sam ARE that firewall.  It's just so ingrained in him that he doesn't see it as some new burden.  And it really wasn't.  God was just re-stating his position -- he's not going to get involved cause the world already has Sam and Dean as the Big Damn Heroes.  Finally, this is totally different than what John did.  John died for his son but he gave an actual order to Dean that Dean felt he had to carry out.  If John had simply said "take care of Sammy", then that would have been the equivalent.  Because "take care of Sammy" was already Dean's Prime Directive.  It's the "kill him if you can't save him" bit that was both new and a real burden.  God didn't ask Dean to do anything other than what he already is doing.  To me, it's vastly different.    

Finally, @catrox14

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Sorry if I offended you. Wasn't intended.

 I'm usually quick on the uptake.  Didn't get the quote.  I understand you didn't mean to offend.  Thanks for letting me know.

Edited March 21, 2017 by SueB

[sarthaz]

7 hours ago, SueB said:

2) Not sure what shouting you are talking about?  At the end of Don't Call Me Shurley he was shouting at Amara (even though he used the term dick). We had that confirmation from Robbie on the commentary (I think it was commentary, may have been an interview).

Interesting.  Thanks for that.  I always thought it was God, even though it seemed a little odd for him to cry out to God in that manner in that moment (but defensible since God literally shows up and stops everything like Dean demanded).  Guess I got tripped up on the word "dick".

[Myrelle]

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 9:05 AM, ILoveReading said:

I had the opposite view of s11.  It's my least favorite season. (although 12 is giving it a run for its money)  I found it dull, uninspired, to many dropped plot points and to many leaps in logic to make certain story lines work...

 

IA. 11 and 12(so far) were a huge letdown to me. I liked 9 and 10 so much better. They finally went bold, IMO, by finally putting Dean at the center of the myth arc, but IA that Dabb had no interest whatsoever in taking on that storyline(and I also agree that he took over the showrunning duties right after the premiere), so he just decided to not write to it except in a very cursory and non-committed manner until the end of the season when he pretty much had to. I think he always wanted to bring God into it and have him come on-screen because he thought that that would be bold move, but all he really did for me there was to ruin another beloved character(Chuck the Prophet) AND he made the connection between Dean and Amara all about God, too, thus lessening the connection between Dean and Amara, which I thought would have made for some fascinating character exploration into Dean's psyche. But nope. Still nothing meaty, writing-wise, on the intense duality of all that lightness and darkness within Dean-except for what Jensen gives us, that is-and maybe that's the problem-he's the one who has me thirsting and thirsting and thirsting some more for something substantial from the writers and the writing in that regard. I still have some hope for that in s12, but I'm beginning to feel that it's, again, just going to be another fool's hope.

And now they've ruined Mary for me, too, in S12. I hate that so much.

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was pretty much annoyed with S11 the moment they had Sam lecture Dean about Saving people. It implied a premise that didn't  exist AT ALL. It threw both brothers under a bus that was never running in the first place. It was a false choice unsupported by the history of the show because "Saving People, Hunting Things" was never about saving ALL the people. They had to accept they couldnt save everyone. Maybe if Sam had just said that he himself forgot and left Dean out of his guilt trip over letting  Lucifer out if the cage and letting the Darkness out , I might've been okay with it.

I hated this too. I hate when they try to use Sam as the writers' mouthpiece, which was clearly what they were attempting to do there in answer to all of the negative feedback they were getting as a result of the brothers placing saving each other above saving the world by the end of S10. That was so lame to me-especially the wording, as Catrox points out here because you can't save everyone has been a given since Dead in the Water. Dean saying that in S4-5 was shown to be delusional thinking, IMO, and Sam thinking it in S11 was shown to be the same, again IMO, although they did save as many as they could by the end of that season. Maybe that should have been the wording if that was what they were going for in that lecture(which yes, just sounded like yet another Sam lecturing Dean speech to me because of that nonsense and with no help from JP's delivery of the lines at all and again, in that regard).

IMO, neither brother should ever be used as any writer's mouthpiece at this point in the story because it just makes them look either hypocritical or as if they're just recycling storylines word for word-the latter of which they were doing in S11 with the saving everyone nonsense. The body count from both the Almost Apocalypse and the Dispelling the Darkness storylines was much too high for that to be proven true both times. They did the best they could, though-which I guess was better than they'd done in S9 and 10, but S9 and 10 were still far more entertaining to me than the resolution that we got in S11. Typical of this show now, though, and again IMO.

I usually judge a season by how many episodes I can remember as entertaining to me, right off the top of my head. S11 was pretty lacking in that regard for me for the most part-the premiere, the second half of Baby, Beyond the Mat, Into the Mystic, Love Hurts, and Alpha and Omega were about it; along with that one scene where Chuck named Dean a Firewall between Darkness and the Light. I did love that scene and had been waiting for something like it for years.

I'd agree that 11 was like 7 as far as entertainment value was concerned. I'm watching from the beginning on TNT again and, man, I think this show still holds up so well from the beginning, but at this point, I'd have to agree with those who feel like a return to it's roots(especially the urban legends) is what this show presently needs more of-with not the least reason being that the present set of writers and showrunners are much more apt to writing that sort of simple stuff and that they should not even attempt a big over-arching myth-arc, much less try to weave it into their one-offs.

And I REALLY! think that some of them(Mr. Perez, especially) should re-watch the entire series before they attempt to do any more with characterization. I'm more fearful and dreadful of the rest of this season because of that particular lack on their parts than any other, tbh.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

On 2017-03-21 at 10:09 AM, Myrelle said:

along with that one scene where Chuck named Dean a Firewall between Darkness and the Light.

This is my favorite scene of s11. 

[Pondlass1]

On 3/21/2017 at 9:09 AM, Myrelle said:

11 and 12(so far) were a huge letdown to me. I liked 9 and 10 so much better.

Except for a few entertaining motw's, seasons 11 & 12 have been a plodding drag with storylines that fizzled into nothing and Sam and Dean being mostly chopped liver.  Seasons 9 & 10 had way more action and interest (for me anyway).  I'm not even bothering to purchase the season 12 DVD and that's a first.

The thrill is almost gone for me now.  Mary, BMOL, Cas, Crowley and Lucifer - all dull as dishwater and poorly written. A Supernatural show should never be dull surely?  Unfortunately this is what's happened here. Characters talk at each other, but never actually say anything.  Sam and Dean mostly relegated to 'guests' in their own show. Any action is few and far between and when it does happen there's no follow through or consequence.  It's almost like every episode is a stand alone because the writer didn't check what went before.

If season 13 is going to feature another fast growing demon baby, BMOL silliness, heaven politics and less and less Sam and Dean - then I'm probably out.

It's so sad.

[SueB]

Several of us are re-starting the series as we follow along with the #TNTRewatch.  Ya know, BLESS THEM for having the boys on our screens every freaking morning.  I'm a consultant that primarily works with West Coast people (even though I live on the East Coast).  Which means I get the opportunity to see the show on many mornings.  I don't always watch because that way lies HOURS of doing nothing but watching... but I'll at least have it on.  Like comfort food.

Anyway, we passed halfway thru S1 (Scarecrow is halfway), so I thought I'd provide some "things I notice about Season X in light of S1-12" - a mid-term commentary:

First, they are BABIES!  I know, it's like it's new every time.  But they are so young. And innocent.
Second, it's very exposition heavy in the first half of S1.  We get the origins of the lore (like where shape-shifters come from).  Things we would not remotely tolerate in S12.  But they made perfect sense in S1.  Of course the show has since implied they knew more about these things when they were younger than the show told in in S1.  I think that's just something we have to accept.  I mean really, in 12 seasons, the list of types of "monsters/things" is at least group-able by category.  So the 'newness' of each type of creature to the boys in S1 was a show necessity.  In otherwords, I can live with both what they showed in S1 and the more complex story of their first 20 years that we have now.
Third, the X-files of it all.  You can really tell where the crew and directors came from in S1.  The emphasis on the individual 'victims/witnesses' of the week.  And they were often less "innocent".
Fourth, Kim Manner's fingerprints.  There's a growth that you see in the boys relationship and the show's complexity in just the first 11 episodes.  And it feels very Kim Manners.  I'm liking that.  We sometimes forget how essential he was to worldbuilding Supernatural but the first season really shows it.
Fifth, (WARNING... it's just an opinion, if it starts a fight.. let's move to Bitch/Jerk), the balance between Sam and Dean becomes more even as the first few episodes progress.  Again, I'm going to go "Kim Manners" influence on this combined with the writers seeing the boys chemistry.  The first few episodes are very much us following Sam as the primary protagonist.  By Home and Scarecrow, that's not the case anymore IMO.  Little things like "Sam sits with the girl while Dean goes off and digs the grave (alone) in Hook Man."  It's all about Sam shifting away from "normal" back to "hunting".  On the one hand, if this was pre-planned it makes sense. Because we, the audience, don't understand this world and we are more like Sam -- coming up to speed.  But I expect it's because they realize that they've got equally interesting characters here.  And the farther away we get from the "fish out of water" newness, the less we need Sam's 'normal' POV to center us.  Also, again in Hook Man, I noticed Sam made more independent moves.  They were definitely not the team of today.   For example, they arrive at the sorority and while Dean's scoping out what's going on, Sam is already heading up to the second floor for a little B&E.  And Dean was following Sam's lead.  That's not how they roll in S12.  Normally (thru S12) they are in synch at the tactical level and have thought through what they are going to do before they show up at the scene.  In Hook Man and several scenes in early S1, they are much more seat-of-the pants. Put differently, in S12, Sam would have nudged Dean's shoulder before starting to climb up. And Dean would likely have nodded without even looking ... because they know what the next move is.  So, on the one hand it's obvious that 12 years of teamwork make for being "in tune". OTOH, I feel like they dropped those little extra "Sam-focus" bits that they had in the first few S1 episodes.  Like they recognized that wasn't balanced and balanced was better.  
Fifth, there's some serious cheese-factor in the SFx.  The car driving scenes are particularly bad.  I'm SOOOOOO glad they have improved that technology.
Sixth, such a dark screen you have to shut the blinds to see the TV in the daylight.  I like the mood but it does require more focus to see the dark scenes and pick up details.  
Seventh, the casting director LOVED pretty thin blonds.  Like a lot. Especially for the 'damsel in distress'.
Eighth, "Home" really sticks out as "one of these things is not like the other". Very mytharc.
Ninth, "Scarecrow" is just as awesome now as it was then.  There's a maturity to the cast and crew by the time they get to Scarecrow.  The jokes land. The stakes seem important.  If I was to have someone watch only 1 episode of 'early' MOTW Supernatural, "Scarecrow" is it.  

Edited March 22, 2017 by SueB

[Diane]

I noticed more this time the very bad car driving scenes.  I don't remember noticing it as much in my previous watches.  Boy are they young, like babies.  I am only able to watch a couple eps a day so I am not quite as far along.  But I do love the 1st season and seeing them find their footing is always a treat for me. I do agree this show is so dark I have to close my blinds to see it well. Pretty sure the women who is attacked in the shower by the spiders in Bugs is the same mom in Just my Imagination.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Diane

[catrox14]

What I'm always struck by when re-watching s1 is just how NOT brodependent they are and how much they really do NOT seem to like or understand each other and how much they are NOT attached at the hip. Which leaves me wondering what gave rise to the idea that boys were so close and joined at the hip from the beginning thus they must always remain so and that there was NO angst given that S1 is pretty much exactly the opposite of that.  I really don't see it, in s2 either, despite Dean selling his soul to save Sam which IMO was NEVER about being unable to live without Sam but was about his own issues with his own self-worth, the feeling that he should have died in Faith mixed with the Prime Directive that he never asked for in the first place.  I don't think it existed in s1-s5 at all. I don't really know when it showed up other than as a rationale for why the boys shouldn't be separated. 

I have a lot of thoughts about the alleged 'Brodependency"/codependency which I'll take to the Relationships thread.

[ILoveReading]

http://www.tvequals.com/2017/03/21/supernatural-so-heres-the-thing-about-mary/?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=buffer&utm_content=buffer5afd5

I wasn't sure where the best place to put this was but since it covers the season, I thought I'd put it here. IMO,  This is an excellent article that sums up my issues with this season.  Some highlights.

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When Mary’s deception was revealed in “Family Feud,’ and Dean called her to the carpet for lying to them, Mary said something to the effect of she didn’t come back to make Sam and Dean sandwiches and tuck them into bed at night. Um, I don’t recall anyone asking you to become Suzie Homemaker, ma’am. That time in the Boys lives has passed. The only thing that Sam and Dean asked of Mary was to get to know her. An opportunity that she’s pretty much denied them. So Mary’s outburst at Dean made her seem defensive because she knew she was in the wrong. Her outburst also shows just how little she really knows the Boys.

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But then we get to ‘Stuck in the Middle (With You)’ and Mary’s true character is revealed. First, Mary lied to Team Free Will to get them on board for a mission. There are a number of problems with that, the biggest being if you’re lied to about the nature and objective of a mission, you cannot adequately prepare. That’s how people get killed, and that’s why Wally’s blood is totally on Mary’s hands. Second, Mary was willing to sacrifice Sam, Dean, and Cas to protect herself and her lies. She stood there, watching, as her son watched his best friend die and she said nothing. She stood there, listening, as a demon threatened to kill her children if she didn’t return what was stolen and she did nothing. Third, Mary continued to lie after the mission was over even though she had plenty opportunity to fess up. Granted, Ramiel probably wouldn’t have let them live even if Mary had given the Colt back to him, but it’s the principle of thing. Mary had a chance to save her family and she chose to save herself. All of that leads us to the crux of the problem which is that this is NOT the Mary Winchester the show gave us in canon.

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The show’s refusal to stick with the canon it has created causes more than just Mary to behave in a manner inconsistent with the character the show already crafted. It’s also caused Sam and Dean to behave out of character. In ‘The Raid,’ Dean’s initial response to Mary’s betrayal was completely consistent with his character. Dean has very strong ideas about the meaning of family, and part of his definition of family includes loyalty. Mary broke that, and Dean responded exactly the way I would expect Dean to respond. The problem came at the end of that episode when Dean forgave Mary. It’s not that I expected Dean to stay angry forever. Even if Mary doesn’t understand what family means, Dean does, so he would’ve gone to save her even if he was still angry. He most likely would’ve forgiven her eventually as well, but it wouldn’t have happened within the course of a few days and it wouldn’t have happened without him laying down a few ground rules.

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Then there’s Sam. It wasn’t surprising that Sam was willing to hear Mary out. He’s so desperately wanted his mother in his life for so long, I suspect he would forgive a great many of her sins before he wrote her off. My problem with Sam was his decision to work with the BMoL based upon the fact that they took out the Alpha Vampire. So what? It’s not like he and Dean couldn’t have done that on their own. Let’s not forget that while Sam was working with the Campbells, they captured the Alpha Vamp and if Samuel hadn’t had his own agenda, they could’ve taken him out then. Yeah, the Brits may have cool toys, but all their toys don’t mean jack squat when they also always have bad intel. So the fact that Sam decided to work with them based on them doing something that he and Dean could’ve done without their “help” left me rolling my eyes. But what made me even more upset was the fact that Sam agreed to actively lie to and manipulate Dean into working with them too.

This paragraph in particular, sums up my entire issue with the end of the last episode.

 

Quote

Dean has learned over the years to follow his gut, and his gut is telling him that the BMoL aren’t to be trusted. Dean asked Sam to pick a side, but what Dean was really asking was for Sam to choose Dean. Sadly, when Sam picked a side it was the one without Dean and that leaves Dean basically isolated. His gut is telling him to keep the Brits at arm’s length, but no one will stand with him. When Sam finally admitted his lies and deception, Dean did what he always does. He just sucked it up and, despite his gut telling him otherwise, he’s standing with Sam. It’s understandable that Sam and Dean have different opinions on the BMoL offer to work together. That’s not the issue. The issue is that Sam is so dismissive of Dean’s concerns, and that’s bothersome. Even if they were going to have a disagreement or discussion about it (which they should), Sam still should have presented a united front until he and Dean worked everything out.

The only thing I didn't agree with is that the authors being happy Mark was back as Lucifer.  I think he needs to go. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

On 21/03/2017 at 3:50 AM, SueB said:

Although WE know that if you look at it, he and Sam have been saving the planet for 12 years.  So... yes Dean, you and Sam ARE that firewall.  It's just so ingrained in him that he doesn't see it as some new burden.  And it really wasn't.  God was just re-stating his position -- he's not going to get involved cause the world already has Sam and Dean as the Big Damn Heroes.

This! God very clearly saying that Dean AND Sam are the firewall. No ambiguity IMO. 

[ILoveReading]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I'm always struck by when re-watching s1 is just how NOT brodependent they are and how much they really do NOT seem to like or understand each other and how much they are NOT attached at the hip. Which leaves me wondering what gave rise to the idea that boys were so close and joined at the hip from the beginning thus they must always remain so and that there was NO angst given that S1 is pretty much exactly the opposite of that.  I really don't see it, in s2 either, despite Dean selling his soul to save Sam which IMO was NEVER about being unable to live without Sam but was about his own issues with his own self-worth, the feeling that he should have died in Faith mixed with the Prime Directive that he never asked for in the first place.  I don't think it existed in s1-s5 at all. I don't really know when it showed up other than as a rationale for why the boys shouldn't be separated. 

I have a lot of thoughts about the alleged 'Brodependency"/codependency which I'll take to the Relationships thread.

I think it stems from Carver.  When Sam not looking for Dean didn't go over well, I find he overcompensated.  Dean was never as clingy as he was to Sam during the back half of that season.   I get where Carver was coming from and I agree with the principle of him trying to show character growth for Sam.   The problem, for me was never that Sam moved on, it was that he didn't even try.  There is a large gap between researching and asking questions and making a deal.   The problem was Carver took it too far in the other direction.  

IMO, Dean wasn't OOC in the first two eps of this season.  He immediately started looking for Sam, but in addition to just having almost died himself he had his mother back.  He had more to think of then just Sam.  We saw him get upset at Lady Tony and break the phone, it showed Dean awake all night monitoring cameras.  Just because Dean wasn't making a deal or threatening to take his own life didn't mean he didn't want to go all out.

As for the reunion, when Dean walks into the cellar and sees Sam you can see the relief written all over his face. 

[catrox14]

Quote

Dean: The deal? What... She's gonna eliminate you, and then she's gonna destroy everything that you've created. She's told me this personally. [Sighs] You started this. You started all of this, but does that give you the right to end it? You know, we're not just some toys you throw away. I think you owe us more than that.

Chuck: If my plan doesn't work, then humans will step up. You, Sam, others that are the chosen will have to find a way. It's why I saved you years ago. You're the firewall between light and darkness.

Dean: No. No, I... Look, give me a – a vampire, and I'm good. But this – God's sister? That is way above my pay grade. I... It... Bottom line is i-it's you who has to take her out. And look, then after that, you know, get a condo in Cancun. I don't care!

Where are you guys getting that he really meant Sam and Dean?

Chuck is talking to Dean not Sam and Dean. And Dean replied for HIMSELF and what he can do.  Dean didn't reply on behalf of he and Sam. So either Dean has an ego the size of the universe. Or Chuck was saying that DEAN is the firewall between Chuck and Amara, which is the job that Dean tried to do when he went ALONE to be the bait in that episode. 

I think by the end of the season in Alpha and Omega, Chuck was saying the world was in good hands with them both. But that IMO was not what Chuck was saying in his park conversation with Dean. ***

45 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

think it stems from Carver.  When Sam not looking for Dean didn't go over well, I find he overcompensated.  Dean was never as clingy as he was to Sam during the back half of that season.   I get where Carver was coming from and I agree with the principle of him trying to show character growth for Sam.   The problem, for me was never that Sam moved on, it was that he didn't even try.  There is a large gap between researching and asking questions and making a deal.   The problem was Carver took it too far in the other direction.  

I don't think even under Carver it was in the narrative that it was brodependency.  But like I said before, I'll take all that to the Relationships thread, when I'm done writing my dissertation LOL

***ETA:  Given that episode had some focus on Dean's issues with Chuck at the beginning, the park conversation and Dean going to see Amara alone, I think Chuck meant that Dean was the firewall in that situation.  It goes to Dean's connection with Amara.

Also, the camera stays on Dean's face the entire time that Chuck is saying "You're the firewall between darkness and light".  There is no flash to Sam, no mention of Sam other than in the same the mention of all humans having to help which came before the camera focused on Dean's face as he was being told by Chuck that he's the firewall.  IMO, between that and the dialogue, the narrative is saying that Dean himself is the firewall between Darkness and Light.

Edited March 22, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

3 hours ago, Diane said:

noticed more this time the very bad car driving scenes.  I don't remember noticing it as much in my previous watches.  Boy are they young, like babies.  I am only able to watch a couple eps a day so I am not quite as far along.  But I do love the 1st season and seeing them find their footing is always a treat for me. I do agree this show is so dark I have to close my blinds to see it well. Pretty sure the women who is attacked in the shower by the spiders in Bugs is the same mom in Just my Imagination.

I actually just watched Bugs last night, and I knew she looked familiar, but I couldn't remember from which episode.  Thank you for saving me the trouble of having to look it up!  As much as that episode is ragged on by pretty much everyone, I honestly don't think it's that bad.  There are a few scenes, like the obviously fake spiders and the fact that it changes from midnight to dawn pretty quickly in the last scene, but for the most part, I was sufficiently creeped out by the damn bugs.  I think there are worse episodes...ghost truck, anyone??

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I think there are worse episodes...ghost truck, anyone??

I kind of like ghost truck  more now for Dean reasons. We learn he had a girlfriend he loved, a life he was trying to make work and we see Sam be totally take off guard at that revelation.  The ghost truck was just such a stupid plot that had potential but egads the execution was so bad.

Edited March 22, 2017 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I kind of like ghost truck  more now for Dean reasons. We learn he had a girlfriend he loved, a life he was trying to make work and we see Sam be totally take off guard at that revelation.  The ghost truck was just such a stupid plot that had potential but egads the execution was so bad.

I admit I haven't watched that one in quite a while, so I might need to give it another go to see if I can find any redeeming qualities.  I liked the idea of Dean having a past relationship, but I didn't think he and the actress who played Cassie had even the slightest amount of chemistry.

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I kind of like ghost truck  more now for Dean reasons. We learn he had a girlfriend he loved, a life he was trying to make work and we see Sam be totally take off guard at that revelation.  The ghost truck was just such a stupid plot that had potential but egads the execution was so bad.

I liked the ep too for the same reason.  Same with Bugs.  I thought the plot was bad but I liked the insight we got into the brothers.

[SueB]

So I agree, there's definite goodness in the racist ghost truck episode that has nothing to do with the MOTW.  To be honest, I know why I dislike the episode but I'm not sure I ACTUALLY know what about it caused folks to really dislike it.  For me, the issues were:
- reductive treatment of an important issue
- that mother's story... IDK, she just pissed me off.  Again, it's the 'paint by numbers' issue.  To me it's like -- no.. we get you are trying but if you are going to take on racism, do BETTER.
- I'm not actually a fan of the actress who plays Cassie.  I like the basic idea that Dean truly fell in love with someone.  That she was strong willed and they fought a lot was interesting.  But the actress just didn't work for me at all.  Again, I wanted "BETTER".
- we've had worse haunted items but the truck was a bit cartoonish

I DID like Sam just sending Dean out there and giving it a shot.  I found that kinda funny.  I know, in reality it was stupid but it was early days and I accept that they were learning to work together.  I think Dean would have gone with a hunch anyway.  But I kind of like Sam's "it never occurred to me" and associated expression, and Dean's exasperation.   S1 didn't have that much nuance in some of these situations.  If that was S12, the communication would have been far different.  And Sam just assuming he was right while putting Dean at risk would have been an outrage.  But it was played for laughes and I thought it was pretty funny.  

[Katy M]

42 minutes ago, SueB said:

I DID like Sam just sending Dean out there and giving it a shot.  I found that kinda funny.  I know, in reality it was stupid but it was early days and I accept that they were learning to work together.  I think Dean would have gone with a hunch anyway.  But I kind of like Sam's "it never occurred to me" and associated expression, and Dean's exasperation.   S1 didn't have that much nuance in some of these situations.  If that was S12, the communication would have been far different.  And Sam just assuming he was right while putting Dean at risk would have been an outrage.  But it was played for laughes and I thought it was pretty funny.  

See, that's the part of the epi I didn't like.  "Evil spirits are destroyed on hallowed ground."  Really, Sam?  Let's think back a couple of months.  Do you remember the Hook Man, AKA an evil spirit, attacking you and Lori in  a church, AKA hallowed ground.  Seems to me this was a really bad, reckless plan. And why did Dean have to stop?  If this plan was going to work, wouldn't the ghost have disappeared while chasing Dean over it, and then if he was wrong, well, no harm no foul.

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Where are you guys getting that he really meant Sam and Dean?

I am getting it from here

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Chuck: If my plan doesn't work, then humans will step up. You, Sam, others that are the chosen will have to find a way. It's why I saved you years ago. You're the firewall between light and darkness.

He said "You" (i.e. Dean), "Sam" (i.e. Sam so he clearly means both of them)...."are the chosen..(i.e. chosen to protect the world).."

Then it is confirmed by this... "its why I saved you (still talking about Sam AND Dean as they were just named at the start of the sentence) all those years ago" The only time God has ever stepped in and ACTIVELY saved anyone in the show is when he zapped Dean AND Sam onto the plane when Lucifer was resurrected (and when he brought Cas back but that's not relevant here).

then he says...

"You" (still talking about both of them) "are the firewall between light and darkness"

Let me give a totally non SPN example. How do you interpret this...

A mum says to one of her kids..

"you and your sister need to tidy your room. You need to clear all the rubbish off the floor. Thats why I gave you some bin bags" 

Who the "you" is referring to is clarified in the first sentence (i.e. the person in the conversation and their sister) and this continues to be the case throughout unless specified otherwise. Thats is how anyone would view the meaning because this is how people talk. So.....

Q Who needs to clean the room? A Both of them. Q What do they both need to do? A Clear the rubbish. Q Who are the bin bags for? A Both of them. 

Now I'll admit that when I was a kid and I didn't want to clean the room my sister and I shared I might have told her that my mum said she had to do it on her own lol. But I doubt any neutral observer of the conversation would buy that interpretation. And if (going back to the SPN example) only 2 bin bags existed in the entire world ever and these 2 people had them.....you get my point.

Now the only way you can twist this into the last little bit (the firewall ref) of Chuck's speech being about Dean and only Dean is if you assume that, after clearly talking about both of them Chuck segwayed into just meaning Dean in mid speech. And for that to work the reference to "saving you" must have been just about Dean (though again there'd be no reason to assume he had stopped talking about them both). But God never has saved JUST Dean. As I said, the only time he has ever directly intervened in the boys lives to help them was at the end of Lucifer Rising when he zapped them BOTH onto the plane. When else could he possibly mean?

But what I really don't understand is, why try to perform interpretive and grammatical convolutions to prove that ONLY Dean is special? BOTH boys have worked together to save the world over and over. To assume God only feels Dean is worthy of that firewall role, when Sam has done just as much to protect humanity and has sacrificed just as much is grossly unfair and there is no basis to assume that (we have never seen God particularly favour Dean and it is Sam who has always had faith in him). Also to believe God meant that more or less means you think the writers mean that given that God is portrayed as the voice of the writer. Again I simply don't believe that is the case. If it was it would certainly fatally undermine the view some have that the writers favour Sam and are anti Dean. I don't think they play favourites. I believe they aim for (though don't always achieve) balance and there is no way IMO that this scene was meant, or is indeed written, the way some choose to interpret it.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I actually just watched Bugs last night, and I knew she looked familiar, but I couldn't remember from which episode.  Thank you for saving me the trouble of having to look it up!  As much as that episode is ragged on by pretty much everyone, I honestly don't think it's that bad.  There are a few scenes, like the obviously fake spiders and the fact that it changes from midnight to dawn pretty quickly in the last scene, but for the most part, I was sufficiently creeped out by the damn bugs.  I think there are worse episodes...ghost truck, anyone??

Its funny how things changed for me when I discovered the online fandom. I watched s 1-4 without any interaction with any other fans. I didn't think when I watched them that either Bugs or the Racist Truck eps were bad. I do remember thinking that the timeline in Bugs (the whole night that lasted 5 mins) was out of kilter but it didn't bother me.

Then I discover online fandom and find they were widely thought of as terrible. Who knew? I enjoyed them. I sometimes think I'd enjoy the show more if I never saw what anyone else thought. I didn't even mind MBBWB - then I came online.....Ouch. 

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Its funny how things changed for me when I discovered the online fandom. I watched s 1-4 without any interaction with any other fans. I didn't think when I watched them that either Bugs or the Racist Truck eps were bad. I do remember thinking that the timeline in Bugs (the whole night that lasted 5 mins) was out of kilter but it didn't bother me.

Then I discover online fandom and find they were widely thought of as terrible. Who knew? I enjoyed them. I sometimes think I'd enjoy the show more if I never saw what anyone else thought. I didn't even mind MBBWB - then I came online.....Ouch. 

For both those episodes, pretty much the only thing I have against them are the climaxes.  I think Bugs may have been better if they were trying to run out of range.  Bees could have been stinging the tires or something (Just kidding), but it was pretty lame.  I've already said why I hate the climax of Route 666. 

Other than the only thing I didn't really care for in Route 666 was the actress who played Cassie.  I'm not even all that picky.  I'm pretty easy to please acting-wise. But, there were just two things that she did that really just stood out to me and not in  a good way.  The first was when Dean came over to ask her about Mayor Todd.  She said, "what's the word close?"  I really really really feel strongly that she should have said "what's the word?  Close?" In other words, she needed a bit of a pause in there.  The other was when the truck was attacking the house, her fear just did not come off to me when she was yelling Dean's name in the phone.  And, this has nothing to do with the acting, but it bugged me at the end when she dumped Dean again.  It wouldn't have bothered me at all if she hadn't been the one to say that if you want things to work out, you'll work them out, or whatever.  Nothing had changed between the two times, except that Sam and Dean had saved her and her mother from a racist ghost truck.  I would totally marry anyone that did that for me:)

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I am getting it from here

He said "You" (i.e. Dean), "Sam" (i.e. Sam so he clearly means both of them)...."are the chosen..(i.e. chosen to protect the world).."

Then it is confirmed by this... "its why I saved you (still talking about Sam AND Dean as they were just named at the start of the sentence) all those years ago" The only time God has ever stepped in and ACTIVELY saved anyone in the show is when he zapped Dean AND Sam onto the plane when Lucifer was resurrected (and when he brought Cas back but that's not relevant here).

then he says...

"You" (still talking about both of them) "are the firewall between light and darkness"

Let me give a totally non SPN example. How do you interpret this...

A mum says to one of her kids..

"you and your sister need to tidy your room. You need to clear all the rubbish off the floor. Thats why I gave you some bin bags" 

Who the "you" is referring to is clarified in the first sentence (i.e. the person in the conversation and their sister) and this continues to be the case throughout unless specified otherwise. Thats is how anyone would view the meaning because this is how people talk. So.....

Q Who needs to clean the room? A Both of them. Q What do they both need to do? A Clear the rubbish. Q Who are the bin bags for? A Both of them. 

Now I'll admit that when I was a kid and I didn't want to clean the room my sister and I shared I might have told her that my mum said she had to do it on her own lol. But I doubt any neutral observer of the conversation would buy that interpretation. And if (going back to the SPN example) only 2 bin bags existed in the entire world ever and these 2 people had them.....you get my point.

Now the only way you can twist this into the last little bit (the firewall ref) of Chuck's speech being about Dean and only Dean is if you assume that, after clearly talking about both of them Chuck segwayed into just meaning Dean in mid speech. And for that to work the reference to "saving you" must have been just about Dean (though again there'd be no reason to assume he had stopped talking about them both). But God never has saved JUST Dean. As I said, the only time he has ever directly intervened in the boys lives to help them was at the end of Lucifer Rising when he zapped them BOTH onto the plane. When else could he possibly mean?

But what I really don't understand is, why try to perform interpretive and grammatical convolutions to prove that ONLY Dean is special? BOTH boys have worked together to save the world over and over. To assume God only feels Dean is worthy of that firewall role, when Sam has done just as much to protect humanity and has sacrificed just as much is grossly unfair and there is no basis to assume that (we have never seen God particularly favour Dean and it is Sam who has always had faith in him). Also to believe God meant that more or less means you think the writers mean that given that God is portrayed as the voice of the writer. Again I simply don't believe that is the case. If it was it would certainly fatally undermine the view some have that the writers favour Sam and are anti Dean. I don't think they play favourites. I believe they aim for (though don't always achieve) balance and there is no way IMO that this scene was meant, or is indeed written, the way some choose to interpret it.

Okay thanks for your extensive reply.

I'm not using the dialogue alone as I said before. I'm using the words, the acting and the camera work on screen to make MY intepretation that Dean was the only firewall in that scene.

My interpretation has literally NOTHING to do with Sam erasure or being anti-Sam or whatever you're implying which is a discussion best left for the Bitch vs Jerk discussion.

Sam's role in that episode was to save Lucifer in the episode when Dean was sent off to be the firewall. But maybe someone can ask the writer what he meant by that. That's probably the only way we'll actually know for sure. 

Thanks for replying though.

[DeeDee79]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I kind of like ghost truck  more now for Dean reasons. We learn he had a girlfriend he loved, a life he was trying to make work and we see Sam be totally take off guard at that revelation.  The ghost truck was just such a stupid plot that had potential but egads the execution was so bad.

I agree with this. There were some nice moments between Dean and Sam and I enjoyed seeing a different side of Dean that was brought out by his relationship with Cassie. The overall execution of the racist truck story line is still godawful though.

[Geordiegirl1967]

We are never going to agree on this, though I love a good debate so I'm fine with it.

Just to respond to this one thing you said

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam's role in that episode was to save Lucifer in the episode when Dean was sent off to be the firewall.

I am surprised to see you taking such a narrow view of Chucks statement. It seems clear to me - whether you think he was talking about just Dean or Dean and Sam - that it was a far more general statement than just the roles Dean and Sam would have in this ep. God was talking about their roles in the past (protecting humankind while he was awol) and the future after he was gone (if he succeeded in sacrificing himself to get rid of Amara). Which again I think strengthens my interpretation because if he was talking generally he couldn't and wouldn't downgrade Sam's past and future role in that way.

[catrox14]

This is my reading of what Dean's role was in the final segment starting with All in the Family and carrying through to the finale.

I'm taking Chuck's remarks in All in the Family as a literal tactical manuever in the fight against Amara, not as a bigger philosophical commentary by Chuck given that Chuck was not planning on surviving, per Metatron who believed Chuck was going to kill himself and let the universe die.  He grouped Dean, Sam and the other humans as warriors to fight again, but he tapped Dean specifically to be the firewall between him(the Light) and Amara (the darkness) specifically because of Dean's connection with Amara, which is not a connection that Sam had (no wank, just facts).

A firewall exists to prevent an attacker from gaining control of the target. It keeps the attackers at bay for as long as possible. In All in the Family, the war was really between Amara(The Darkness ) and Chuck (the Light). She was using humanity to get to him. When that failed, she went through Cas to get into Dean's head.  She had warded herself from Chuck apparently (even though that literally doesn't make if she wanted to find him but whatever, I digress).

Dean had to be the firewall because he was trusted by both sides, by both Amara and Chuck.  Sam could not have filled that role because she would have been happy to have killed Sam and Cas if not for her connection to Dean IMO.  If Sam showed up instead of Dean she would have known IMMEDIATELY something was rotten. It took her touching Dean's face to realize that he was there as a decoy which infuriated her and sent her off to kill Sam, Casifer, and the prophet. Chuck saved them from her when he teleported them back to the bunker.

Dean was the firewall, again, when they figured out how to kill her. Despite her feeling betrayed by him previously, she did not smite him immediately when he showed up. Sam could not have filled that role because she would have killed him immediately IMO.  After Dean talked to her and she began to see that she didn't really want to kill Chuck but to reconcile, then Dean's job as the Firewall between the Darkness and the Light was complete. If reconciliation failed, Dean and Amara would both be dead but the world goes on, Chuck lives and there is no need for a firewall because The Darkness was destroyed.  If Dean failed to kill her, the universe was going die anyway, again no firewall needed.

Thus when Chuck said the below he meant IMO that they were now basically the guardians of Earth not a firewall between the Darkness and the Light.The battle between the Darkness and the Light was over because Firewall!Dean had been successful.  YMMV.

Quote

I get it.

CHUCK:

But first...

[Chuck walks over to Dean and places a hand on his chest, removing the bomb. Dean grimaces in pain.]

CHUCK:

Better?

DEAN:

What about us?

What about Earth?

CHUCK:

Earth will be fine.

It's got you...and Sam.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Thank to people talking about S1, I watched Hookman tonight.  God, @SueB's right: they were babies.  Mind you, I only started watching the show a couple years ago and binged.  It's still weird to go back and see them before they could shave properly.  

One thing I remembered that I really liked that the show did with Sam's characterization in the first season was that they didn't push him into another relationship too fast after Jessica.  I kept expecting them to, (I mean; a cute, young guy like Sam?  Come on - that would have been too easy to do) and they didn't - and I really appreciated that.  It felt more "real" how they actually gave the character room to grieve.  Most shows don't go that route.  (Especially not with hot, young stars.)  

I really liked these MOW eps in the early seasons.  They were exposition heavy - I didn't realize it the first time through, because I needed that exposition at the time.  Again @SueB's right that now we probably would be annoyed by it.  (But a new viewer probably would not be annoyed - I wonder if the seasoned viewers think about that?) I also remember thinking that they seemed to be burning through a lot of these 'urban legends' and creatures pretty fast back then.   Of course, now I realize that with the 5 season story already planned out, that makes sense.  But since I'm a lot less interested in the big mytharc that happened with the apocalypse, and it was these smaller MOW eps that really drew me in in S1, I still wish they'd drawn these out a little more.  

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Again @SueB's right that now we probably would be annoyed by it.  (But a new viewer probably would not be annoyed - I wonder if the seasoned viewers think about that?) I also remember thinking that they seemed to be burning through a lot of these 'urban legends' and creatures pretty fast back then.  

I figured they burned through them because they never knew year to year if they would be cancelled.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

Second, it's very exposition heavy in the first half of S1.  We get the origins of the lore (like where shape-shifters come from).  Things we would not remotely tolerate in S12.  But they made perfect sense in S1.  Of course the show has since implied they knew more about these things when they were younger than the show told in in S1.  I think that's just something we have to accept.  I mean really, in 12 seasons, the list of types of "monsters/things" is at least group-able by category.  So the 'newness' of each type of creature to the boys in S1 was a show necessity.  In otherwords, I can live with both what they showed in S1 and the more complex story of their first 20 years that we have now.

See, I think the show is extremely exposition-heavy now and I don't like it. S1 exposition was really goofy and sometimes hokey, but it never bothered me. At least they tried to make those scenes interesting back in the day. Now they just do sit and/or stand 'n chats that are so boring and annoying and irritating and...did I mention boring? ;)

Actually, I think there was a lot more quiet spaces to the show back in the day and it was beautiful, IMO.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

At least they tried to make those scenes interesting back in the day. Now they just do sit and/or stand 'n chats that are so boring and annoying and irritating and...did I mention boring? ;)

Actually, I think there was a lot more quiet spaces to the show back in the day and it was beautiful, IMO.

I'm not sure that they were so much more beautiful (don't get me wrong - they were beautiful) so much as they were new back then.  And they were really only interesting in that it was new information.  In Hookman, for instance, there were at least two scenes I remember that showed Dean and Sam just researching - sitting in the/a library with dusty books and records and digging in.  And it was cool.  But would it be so cool to see now?  On the one hand, yes - I still think we need to see these scenes/quiet spaces.  On the other hand, I'm sure there'd still be someone complaining about it because it could have been filled with Plot.  

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I figured they burned through them because they never knew year to year if they would be cancelled.

Well, this may be true.  But, if there was a 5 year plan (which I've heard there was, but I could be wrong about that) it still seems pretty stupid to burn through all/most of the good stuff too early.  You give people a taste - and that gets them coming back for more.  

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, this may be true.  But, if there was a 5 year plan (which I've heard there was, but I could be wrong about that) it still seems pretty stupid to burn through all/most of the good stuff too early.  You give people a taste - and that gets them coming back for more.  

Even if there was a 5 year plan, there was no guarantee that they would get those 5 years, you know? So I think they wrote with the thought in the back of their mind this could be it. I think that's the problem with writing for a show that is a yearly renewal. They try to maybe write to blow it all away and then get renewed...kind of like killing off Ellen and Jo is s5. They did it because they thought that would be the end of the show.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Even if there was a 5 year plan, there was no guarantee that they would get those 5 years, you know?

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you.  I get why they they did it.  I kind of see it from both the writers/producers/showrunner POV and the networks/audiences. If you burn/give away too much - what's left?  There should be a better way.  [Don't know what that is.  Just there should be better.]

[DittyDotDot]

45 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I'm not sure that they were so much more beautiful (don't get me wrong - they were beautiful) so much as they were new back then.  And they were really only interesting in that it was new information.  In Hookman, for instance, there were at least two scenes I remember that showed Dean and Sam just researching - sitting in the/a library with dusty books and records and digging in.  And it was cool.  But would it be so cool to see now?  On the one hand, yes - I still think we need to see these scenes/quiet spaces.  On the other hand, I'm sure there'd still be someone complaining about it because it could have been filled with Plot.  

When I talk about quiet spaces, though, I'm not talking about the expositions scenes. I'm talking about how they used to allow entire scenes to play out without any talking. Those scenes would set the mood and allowed the show to breath a bit. There's a beautiful and creepy scene in Scarecrow where Dean is checking out that orchard that lasts for over a minute without any talking. There's also the scene in Provenance where they break into the auction house that's just them running around with flashlights that's totally fun due to them just letting us watch it instead of filling it with pointless dialogue.

But, IMO, even the exposition scenes in S1 are more interesting because the blocking and/or camera work in S1 was more nuanced and creative back in the day. There are certainly some many hokey scenes with pointless talking in S1--Wendigo jumps immediately to mind--but I forgive the words they're saying simply because they tried to make it interesting by moving the camera and the actors around. Plus, the art department used to have a lot more fun with the sets, so there's always something interesting in the frame. 

Now it just seems like so much of the show is static, pointless talking. 

ETA: Not to mention the beauty the show used to have with the darker lighting.

Edited March 23, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[AwesomO4000]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Plus, the art department used to have a lot more fun with the sets, so there's always something interesting in the frame. 

Sometimes they still surprise me though. I don't remember which recent episode it was exactly - but someone may be able to tell me - but that Too Tired motel room was a thing of beauty for me. But then again, I'm a sucker for bad puns, so it might've just bee me. ; ) Oh and "Baby" had some interesting camera work.

Also as I said elsewhere recently, for me the Zanna were the most interesting new characters that the show had introduced in a long time.*

* Even more surprising in that case, since Jenny Klein has been very hit or miss for me. But my favorites of hers have involved quirky characters - she also wrote "Out With the Old" with Joyce and George the harried assistant. But she also wrote one of my most hated episodes of all time - the torture porn fest that was "Torn and Frayed." Haaaate.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sometimes they still surprise me though. I don't remember which recent episode it was exactly - but someone may be able to tell me - but that Too Tired motel room

It was Charlie's hotel where she was murdered :(.**

**Actually NO that's not correct. That was the Bluebird or Blackbird motel...I think.

I think the Too Tired was the Valentine's Day episode from s11.

Edited March 23, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sometimes they still surprise me though. I don't remember which recent episode it was exactly - but someone may be able to tell me - but that Too Tired motel room was a thing of beauty for me. But then again, I'm a sucker for bad puns, so it might've just bee me. ; ) Oh and "Baby" had some interesting camera work.

They do indeed surprise me every now and again. I'm just saying that watching S1 - S3, almost every episode is like Baby to me. The writing wasn't especially strong but the visuals delighted me so much that I could ignore it. And, IMO, the show is isn't any less exposition-y now than it was then--they still barf up the same nonsensical facts--it's just that now there's nothing to distract me from how exposition-y it is. 

[Boopsahoy]

10 hours ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

sometimes think I'd enjoy the show more if I never saw what anyone else thought. 

I agree! I loved at the time of watchin, many episodes that I came to find out later that people didn't like. However, it didn't change my mind. What always irked me were people that read the responses and THEN watched the episode. Oh yes I agree that stunk-maybe you were swayed but what you read?

[Geordiegirl1967]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

the torture porn fest that was "Torn and Frayed."

Clearly that one made no impact on me. I can't remember anything about it. Not even which season it was in. Hasn't Jenny K moved on now?

[Wayward Son]

10 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Clearly that one made no impact on me. I can't remember anything about it. Not even which season it was in. Hasn't Jenny K moved on now?

She left at the end of season 11 to work on Marvel's Jessica Jones. 

Torn and Frayed took place in the middle of season 8. It aired after Citizen Fang and featured the brothers awkward reunion after all the drama of CF. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

17 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Torn and Frayed took place in the middle of season 8. It aired after Citizen Fang and featured the brothers awkward reunion after all the drama of CF

That explains a lot. I utterly LOATHE Citizen Fang. It was my lowest point in the whole of my time watching SPN and is the closest I have ever come to entirely giving up on the show. It was in this ep I realised that the worst, most ooc, most appalling decision ever made in the whole 12 years of the show i.e. to have Sam not look for Dean wasn't a bait and switch. There was no big reveal coming that would make sense of what they had told us up to then. Amelia was real. Sam wasn't whammied or under supernatural influence. He hadn't had a breakdown. He had - we were expected to believe - just chosen not to look for his brother. Shudder! Makes me cringe just to think about it.

So that would explain why T&F made no impact. It was a miracle I watched it at all. I am not surprised it made no impression. 

[Diane]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

When I talk about quiet spaces, though, I'm not talking about the expositions scenes. I'm talking about how they used to allow entire scenes to play out without any talking. Those scenes would set the mood and allowed the show to breath a bit. There's a beautiful and creepy scene in Scarecrow where Dean is checking out that orchard that lasts for over a minute without any talking. There's also the scene in Provenance where they break into the auction house that's just them running around with flashlights that's totally fun due to them just letting us watch it instead of filling it with pointless dialogue.

But, IMO, even the exposition scenes in S1 are more interesting because the blocking and/or camera work in S1 was more nuanced and creative back in the day. There are certainly some many hokey scenes with pointless talking in S1--Wendigo jumps immediately to mind--but I forgive the words they're saying simply because they tried to make it interesting by moving the camera and the actors around. Plus, the art department used to have a lot more fun with the sets, so there's always something interesting in the frame. 

Now it just seems like so much of the show is static, pointless talking. 

ETA: Not to mention the beauty the show used to have with the darker lighting.

I miss the darkness, the quietness the show used to have also. Kim Manners really was a genius I love his episodes, the way in Lazarus rising at the beginning with no dialogue, he could embrace the quiet. He really could let them just be in the scene, without all the pointless talking and the way he was able to film and block the scenes, again, just love his eps.   I really miss the hotel rooms, they truly were a work of art.

[Diane]

Watching Home today, this episode irritates the hell out of me.  But I really hate to watch out of order, so I am suffering through it.  Must make it through to the next episode, love Asylum, I can do it, I can do it.

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, Diane said:

Watching Home today, this episode irritates the hell out of me.  But I really hate to watch out of order, so I am suffering through it.  Must make it through to the next episode, love Asylum, I can do it, I can do it.

Why do you hate Home?  I love that episode.  Although, I do love Asylum more.

[Diane]

I am an equal brothers fan to the heart, but I hate the way Dean is spoken to and treated in this episode.  It also drives me insane that he calls his Dad almost in tears and John is there and can't even answer the damn phone.  I do like that Mary saves the boys, but that is about all. So this episode gets on my last nerve.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Diane

[SueB]

Hmmm... I LOVE Home.  We had Nightmares earlier today.  Watching Max is SOOOOOO hard.  He's literally a still-beaten abused child.  His body language and anguish are palpable.  And he's physically HARD to look at.  He's not a super attractive guy.  You see the pain on him.  So, I forced myself to watch, despite how uncomfortable, because that shit is real (there are abused people out there everywhere) and we gloss it over with "pretty" TV-friendly bruises.  Max is not a TV-friendly victim.  Which makes him more real.

Hard story to watch. 

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

Hmmm... I LOVE Home.  We had Nightmares earlier today.  Watching Max is SOOOOOO hard.  He's literally a still-beaten abused child.  His body language and anguish are palpable.  And he's physically HARD to look at.  He's not a super attractive guy.  You see the pain on him.  So, I forced myself to watch, despite how uncomfortable, because that shit is real (there are abused people out there everywhere) and we gloss it over with "pretty" TV-friendly bruises.  Max is not a TV-friendly victim.  Which makes him more real.

Hard story to watch. 

I agree, it's a very hard story to watch and so sad.

[ILoveReading]

34 minutes ago, Diane said:

I am an equal brothers fan to the heart, but I hate the way Dean is spoken to and treated in this episode.  It also drives me insane that he calls his Dad almost in tears and John is there and can't even answer the damn phone.  I do like that Mary saves the boys, but that is about all. So this episode gets on my last nerve.

This episode always feels like it was written by two different people  The first half was good, but then in fell apart after Missouri entered the picture.   I also disliked the way Dean's issues being back in Lawrence were dropped. 

Missouri was a terrible psychic, Dean's instincts are better than her abilities. 

There was one small, blink and you'll miss it moment I liked.   It was when Dean was putting the purifying pouches (or whatever they were called) together.  You see him taste one of the ingredients and make a "ew gross" face.  I laughed at that because it was just so Dean.  I'm guessing it was adlibbed by Jensen.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Diane said:

Watching Home today, this episode irritates the hell out of me.  But I really hate to watch out of order, so I am suffering through it.  Must make it through to the next episode, love Asylum, I can do it, I can do it.

What's about it irritates you?

I thought it was an OK episode (not wonderful, but has some highlights) -- but it doesn't work in terms of canon nowadays. Or in general, really. A 20+ year old ghost that martyrs herself for her sons? Weird

ETA Sorry, just saw your reply! :)

Edited March 23, 2017 by rue721

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Why do you hate Home?  I love that episode. 

I love Home. It is one of my faves from s1. I love Missouri. I think people take the way she speaks to the boys too seriously. It is meant to be funny and said with affection, and for me it works. It is from this ep that the show really started to punch above its weight emotionally I thought.  

It always strikes me when watching the early seasons how much both boys have grown up. In particular Dean was like a little boy sometimes - so desperate for his Dad's approval, so low in self esteem, so weighed down by duty and his lack of a childhood. There are still elements of that boy in the man we see now but he has grown a lot and values himself much more. And his and Sam's relationship is much more mature and equal now. Dean saw himself as the big brother, the protector, the peacemaker. Sam was the kid brother, rebelling against dad, taking risks, not following the rules. 

Now Dean and Sam are equals, adults, best friends as well as brothers. That big bro little bro dynamic is still there but it was much more in the forefront in the early seasons. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Diane said:

I am an equal brothers fan to the heart, but I hate the way Dean is spoken to and treated in this episode.  It also drives me insane that he calls his Dad almost in tears and John is there and can't even answer the damn phone.  I do like that Mary saves the boys, but that is about all. So this episode gets on my last nerve.

Home is the episode in which I started to really hate John. And Faith is the episode in which I firmly and forever will always LOATHE HIM.  I cannot believe that any father worth his salt would ignore his own children's PLEAS for help.

He ignored Dean when Dean needed him the most. TWICE. Ugh I just cannot with John. I try to make excuses for John at times because of what John went through but when I really think about what we've seen on screen in most of the cases, John has treated Dean abominably for most of the show.  I think how he treated young!Dean in Something Wicked, is confirmed in how he treated him in Home, and Faith. IMTOD it SEEMS like John is being kind to Dean but IMO, it was one last turn of the knife to put Save Sam or Kill Sam on Dean, even if he traded his life for Dean's.

John Winchester is the literal worst, IMO.  I'll never change my opinion on that.

ETA: I really dislike Missouri a great deal. She had literally no reason to speak to Dean the way she did and why only Dean?

I've always questioned why she did that. And upon many re-watches, I come back to Missouri was a bit of a fraud and/or she was covering for John. 

She started off on the wrong foot by saying Dean was a goofy looking kid.   Every picture of Dean as a child is him as a NOT goofy looking kid.  How could she have even known the boys as kids if she really thought Dean was goofy looking?  Why would she say something that was  demonstrably false? Other than to be mean unless she was lying.  I'm of the opinion, she  was deflecting because John had already come to her house and was there the whole time and she was struggling to keep covering for him.   

Quote

[CUT TO: INT – MISSOURI’S HOUSE. MISSOURI MOSELEY is escorting a man out of the house while DEAN and SAM sit on the couch, waiting.]

MISSOURI: All right, there. Don’t you worry ‘bout a thing. Your wife is crazy about you. [The man thanks her and she closes the front door behind him.] Whew. Poor bastard. His woman is cold-bangin’ the gardener.

DEAN: Why didn’t you tell him?

MISSOURI: People don’t come here for the truth. They come for good news. [The boys stare at her.] Well? Sam and Dean, come on already, I ain’t got all day.

[She leaves the room. DEAN and SAM exchange a confused look and follow her into the next room.] Well, lemme look at ya. [She laughs.] Oh, you boys grew up handsome.

[She points a finger at DEAN.] And you were one goofy-lookin’ kid, too.

[DEAN glares at her while SAM smirks.] Sam. [She grabs his hand.] Oh, honey…I’m sorry about your girlfriend. [The boys are shocked.] And your father –- he’s missin’?

SAM: How’d you know all that?

MISSOURI: Well, you were just thinkin’ it just now. [SAM raises his eyebrows, surprised.]

DEAN: Well, where is he? Is he okay?

MISSOURI: I don’t know.

DEAN: Don’t know? Well, you’re supposed to be a psychic, right?

MISSOURI: Boy, you see me sawin’ some bony tramp in half? You think I’m a magician? I may be able to read thoughts and sense energies in a room, but I can’t just pull facts out of thin air. Sit, please. [SAM smirks at DEAN and they sit down. MISSOURI snaps at DEAN.] Boy, you put your foot on my coffee table, I’m ‘a whack you with a spoon!

DEAN: I didn’t do anything.

MISSOURI: But you were thinkin’ about it. [DEAN raises his eyebrows. SAM smiles.]

SAM: Okay. So, our dad –- when did you first meet him?

MISSOURI: He came for a reading. A few days after the fire. I just told him what was really out there in the dark. I guess you could say…I drew back the curtains for him.

DEAN: What about the fire? Do you know about what killed our mom?

MISSOURI: A little. Your daddy took me to your house. He was hopin’ I could sense the echoes, the fingerprints of this thing.

SAM: And could you?

MISSOURI: I….[She shakes her head.]

SAM: What was it?

MISSOURI: [softly] I don’t know. Oh, but it was evil.

Edited March 23, 2017 by catrox14