All Episodes Talk: Saving People, Hunting Things

[sarthaz]

7.17 The Born-Again Identity

[rue721]

Oh wow, apparently I can't even watch gifs of fake yawning without yawning, too!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

4.17 It's a Terrible Life

That seriously makes me want to yawn now!  

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Oh wow, apparently I can't even watch gifs of fake yawning without yawning, too!

Seriously.  Me too!

[SueB]

2 hours ago, auntvi said:

4.17 It's a Terrible Life

Well that made me yawn watching the gif so I'm calling this on convincing. 

[AwesomO4000]

Okay, weirdly that clip still somehow caused me to yawn. I didn't realize I was that suggestible to yawning. Heh.

Oops next page... but hah! Guess I wasn't the only one then! (And yeah - it was the same as the one you quoted, @SueB)

Edited March 15, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[SueB]

Brought over from the Bitch/Jerk thread because it's not remotely about the writing:

IMO John's problem was Sam LEAVING (per Catrox's emphasis).  He could have been leaving to join the circus.  It was that he was no longer under John's watchful eye.  OTOH, I think Dean put an emphasis on the leaving from a perspective that it was their job to seek out and destroy the demon who killed their mother (which was John's mission that Dean assumed because that's the way Dean rolled back then). If Dean remotely thought Sam was in danger, he would have never phrased it as 'ditching' and he wouldn't have left Sam alone.  

Once Sam came back, Dean's "keep Sammy safe" antenna went up in the Pilot because a demon killed Jess.  Dean's no dummy, the demon attacking Sam's fiance just like their mother was no coincidence.  In S1 you see Dean go into worry mode straight away with first the no-sleeping and then in full-out 'shitting his pants in silence' mode when Sam demonstrated he had The Shining.  If Dean had any inkling of that while Sam was in school, I think he would not have just let it lie.

I think John, OTOH, suspected Sam would be in danger but also felt betrayed that Sam would not pick up the Cause like Dean did.  John was obsessed and really stopped seeing clearly after Mary died.  

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, SueB said:

IMO John's problem was Sam LEAVING (per Catrox's emphasis)

That wasn't my emphasis. That was Rue721's :)

[ahrtee]

I was under the impression that, whatever John might have known, Sam and Dean didn't know that it was a demon that killed Mary till Scarecrow, with John's phonecall:

JOHN: Look, I know this is hard for you to understand. You’re just gonna have to trust me on this.

SAM: You’re after it, aren’t you? The thing that killed Mom.

JOHN: Yeah. It’s a demon, Sam.

SAM: A demon? You know for sure?

DEAN: A demon? What’s he saying?

JOHN: I do. Listen, Sammy, I, uh…I also know what happened to your girlfriend. I’m so sorry. I would’ve done anything to protect you from that.

SAM: You know where it is?

JOHN: Yeah, I think I’m finally closing in on it.

SAM: Let us help.

JOHN: You can’t. You can’t be any part of it.

Later, in Salvation, he shows them all his research and says:

JOHN: So this is it. This is everything I know. Look, our whole lives we been searching for this demon right? Not a trace, just...nothing. Until about a year ago. For the first time I picked up a trail.

DEAN: And that's when you took off.

JOHN: Yeah. That's right. The demon must have come out of hiding, or hibernation.

So he's saying that he was on a cold trail, not even knowing what  he was hunting (or at least, not sure about it), for over 20 years.  That's pretty obsessive.  But I think he did know that Sam was in danger (he said to Azazel in IMTOD that he "knew about Sammy" and had known "for some time"), which IA is why he didn't want Sam away from the protection (or damage control) that he could provide.  I think he was also afraid of the demon getting "control" of Sam or influencing him in some way (which would be *why* he would "turn evil,") and which is why he didn't want Sam anywhere near the hunt.  He didn't specify that he knew about the demon blood, but he knew Sam was in danger, and also in danger of turning evil, which is why he told Dean to save him or kill him.  But, judging by Dean's reaction to John's last demand shows to me that Dean didn't have any idea of what John was thinking.  

Edited March 17, 2017 by ahrtee

[SueB]

Excellent point about the 'demon' angle being revealed in S1 for the boys.  It was always 'that thing that killed your Mom'.  Which also helps to justify learning how to hunt all monsters and not just focus on demon issues. 

[sarthaz]

What's everyone's feeling on Season 11?  Having just finished another rewatch, I was struck by how much I enjoyed most of it.  The first couple episodes with small-town Darkness were kinda blech, and I didn't like the whole God-has-a-really-bad-stomach-ache approach at the end, but overall I'm surprised at how good many of the episodes were, particularly the MOTWs.

Having the boys together and removing so much angst does wonders for this season.  Take Don't You Forget About Me.  I don't particularly care about Alex or Claire, and yet they make it not suck.  I don't love it -- maybe not even Top 10 for the season -- but this is one that could have been a steaming pile of shit, and it's not bad.  Red Meat, Into the Mystic, Beyond the Mat, Thin Lizzie: these are all episodes that could have totally sucked, but they're all pretty entertaining bc the boys are basically just back to hunting monsters again.  And they're not the standout episodes of the season like Baby and Just My Imagination and Don't Call Me Shurley and Safe House.

If I have one big complaint it's that the botched the whole God arc.  Don't Call Me Shurley was by far the best of the God episodes, and they burned it first.  Those last 4 episodes should have been condensed to 2, with the first ending in "Fare Thee Well" and the second being all battle.

Overall, though, surprised that I liked the season as a whole as much as I did.  Thoughts?

[Katy M]

54 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

What's everyone's feeling on Season 11?  Having just finished another rewatch, I was struck by how much I enjoyed most of it.  The first couple episodes with small-town Darkness were kinda blech, and I didn't like the whole God-has-a-really-bad-stomach-ache approach at the end, but overall I'm surprised at how good many of the episodes were, particularly the MOTWs.

Having the boys together and removing so much angst does wonders for this season.  Take Don't You Forget About Me.  I don't particularly care about Alex or Claire, and yet they make it not suck.  I don't love it -- maybe not even Top 10 for the season -- but this is one that could have been a steaming pile of shit, and it's not bad.  Red Meat, Into the Mystic, Beyond the Mat, Thin Lizzie: these are all episodes that could have totally sucked, but they're all pretty entertaining bc the boys are basically just back to hunting monsters again.  And they're not the standout episodes of the season like Baby and Just My Imagination and Don't Call Me Shurley and Safe House.

If I have one big complaint it's that the botched the whole God arc.  Don't Call Me Shurley was by far the best of the God episodes, and they burned it first.  Those last 4 episodes should have been condensed to 2, with the first ending in "Fare Thee Well" and the second being all battle.

Overall, though, surprised that I liked the season as a whole as much as I did.  Thoughts?

I didn't like most of the last 4 episodes, because I refuse to accept Chuck as God.  But, other than that, I liked Season 11.  I thought The Bad Seed was boring, and Beyond the Mat was just weird, but 2 less than par episodes out of 19 isn't bad.  See, I'm not even acknowledging the last 4 epis of the season.  Oh, and I will say that Safe House was confusing in the same way any time warp thing is, but BOBBY, so I'll forgive it, LOL.

[Wayward Son]

From when I was ranking the seasons in a previous post.

Season 11 (C+): This was easily the best season since the Kripke era as it featured several outstanding episodes such as Baby, Just My Imagination, Safe House and Red Meat. I also enjoyed seeing the brothers act in sync again after seasons of having some secret or other between them. What lets the season down is the mytharc. It grows too high scales and the main characters become lost in the whole thing. I also disliked the Casifier storyline.

So basically overall characterisation and (most) stand alones good! Mytharc bad! Haha

Edited March 19, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

Oh, I really loved S11.  And I just watched the finale on TNT Rewatch yesterday so it's fresh in my mind.

Loved:
- Sam and Dean changing their approach to hunting and actively working the "Saving People"
- ADORED Chuck. I like that he is complex and "lordly" (even he's just trying to win an argument).  I loved how much he struggled with hurting Amara. I like that Sam and Dean came up with a solution that he didn't and it worked out well for everyone. I liked that he's miffed Dean thinks he's a dick but not in a vengeful way.  He's just a little - hurt.  And despite that, he's not changing his approach.  I like that he and Dean don't see eye to eye and yet I respect both sides of the argument.  I loved Sam being a fanboy (although planets being round was beneath him). 
- Metatron getting a redemption.  I know. I'm STUNNED.  But the little shit made me cry.

(to be continued post chores).

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

What's everyone's feeling on Season 11?  Having just finished another rewatch, I was struck by how much I enjoyed most of it.  The first couple episodes with small-town Darkness were kinda blech, and I didn't like the whole God-has-a-really-bad-stomach-ache approach at the end, but overall I'm surprised at how good many of the episodes were, particularly the MOTWs.

Having the boys together and removing so much angst does wonders for this season.  Take Don't You Forget About Me.  I don't particularly care about Alex or Claire, and yet they make it not suck.  I don't love it -- maybe not even Top 10 for the season -- but this is one that could have been a steaming pile of shit, and it's not bad.  Red Meat, Into the Mystic, Beyond the Mat, Thin Lizzie: these are all episodes that could have totally sucked, but they're all pretty entertaining bc the boys are basically just back to hunting monsters again.  And they're not the standout episodes of the season like Baby and Just My Imagination and Don't Call Me Shurley and Safe House.

If I have one big complaint it's that the botched the whole God arc.  Don't Call Me Shurley was by far the best of the God episodes, and they burned it first.  Those last 4 episodes should have been condensed to 2, with the first ending in "Fare Thee Well" and the second being all battle.

Overall, though, surprised that I liked the season as a whole as much as I did.  Thoughts?

I've yet to re-watch S11, but my recollection is pretty much as yours. The beginning and end of the season was pretty listless, but overall the show lightened up a bit and kept the bickering to a minimum. And, I liked they got back to hunting things. During S9 and S10 the show started to become a chore to watch, but S11 became a pleasure again.

[Mick Lady]

Regarding season 11's final, I loved the relationship between Rowena and Chuck! Laughed like crazy when they were commiserating about "kids" and the fact that she called him "Charles!" 

I agree with TripleD, the show has become fun again!

[Macbeth]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

- Metatron getting a redemption.  I know. I'm STUNNED.  But the little shit made me cry.

 

Never underestimate the talents of Curtis Armstrong.  Truly an underrated, character actor.

I loved S11, as I was amused by God's squeamishness when dealing with his fans.  Chuck was uncomfortable by the new (and short-lived) prophet's obsequiousness on finding out he was really God.  But Chuck had no problem accepting that the new (and short-lived) prophet had been an  atheist.  He believes in free will.  And as Chuck said
"I believe in me."  He doesn't care if others don't.

Which is a great attitude for a show about angels and demons to have.  IMO.  It's not preachy. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

5 hours ago, sarthaz said:

What's everyone's feeling on Season 11?  Having just finished another rewatch, I was struck by how much I enjoyed most of it.  The first couple episodes with small-town Darkness were kinda blech, and I didn't like the whole God-has-a-really-bad-stomach-ache approach at the end, but overall I'm surprised at how good many of the episodes were, particularly the MOTWs.

I LOVED s11. It was probably my fave since s7 (yes I loved s7). However the ending of the season after the amazing return of God and the Amulet was just a HUGE disappointment. So much potential wasted. I assume now (having seen s12 so far) that the drop in quality and focus on Dean and Sam's relationship after DCMS coincided with Dabb taking over from Carver. I don't have much time for Carver, but Dabb has been poor IMO.

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I LOVED s11. It was probably my fave since s7 (yes I loved s7). However the ending of the season after the amazing return of God and the Amulet was just a HUGE disappointment. So much potential wasted. I assume now (having seen s12 so far) that the drop in quality and focus on Dean and Sam's relationship after DCMS coincided with Dabb taking over from Carver. I don't have much time for Carver, but Dabb has been poor IMO.

Well, we know from convention interviews that the last few episodes of season 11 were very much a group effort. Apparently the original scripts for the last few episodes were absolutely abymsal and needed to be rewritten. It was said they had J2 and M2 on the phone often for input on their characters and the eps were the most collaborative to date. So everyone is to blame for the last few episodes.

In regards to Dabb and season 12! I think the decreased focus on the brothers and the more ensemble like feel could be just as easily down to J2s need for time off due to the birth of kids and a general desire to be with their families. I think there's a good chance that season 13 could go back to fully focusing on the brothers once J2s personal lives are less hectic. 

So im not saying you're wrong to blame Dabb just that IMO it's too early to tell the cause just yet. If season 13 ends up the same then I'll be agreeing that the ensemble like feel must have been something decided on by Dabb. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Wayward Son

[SueB]

Finished the post... put the whole shebang here so you don't have to remember what I said before.

Oh, I really loved S11.  And I just watched the finale on TNT Rewatch yesterday so it's fresh in my mind.

Loved:
- Sam and Dean changing their approach to hunting and actively working the "Saving People"
- ADORED Chuck. I like that he is complex and "lordly" (even he's just trying to win an argument).  I loved how much he struggled with hurting Amara. I like that Sam and Dean came up with a solution that he didn't and it worked out well for everyone. I liked that he's miffed Dean thinks he's a dick but not in a vengeful way.  He's just a little - hurt.  And despite that, he's not changing his approach.  I like that he and Dean don't see eye to eye and yet I respect both sides of the argument.  I loved Sam being a fanboy (although planets being round was beneath him). 
- Metatron getting a redemption.  I know. I'm STUNNED.  But the little shit made me cry. (Note: I agree w/ Macbeth, Curtis is underrated... he REALLY sold Metatron IMO).
- Baby. Such a fantastic episode for it's quietness.  It allows us to see how "everyday life" is for the boys.  For me, it allows me to expand the universe -- so it's a high-leverage episode IMO. And since the short-shorts made it to the gag reel, I'm not going to fuss about them missing from the ep. (Yo! I like dipping into the shallow end of the pool from time to time).
- The grandeur of the season: The Vessel, the mini Zombie-apocalypse (three times), Darkness rolling over the countryside, epic Angel smiting, breaking the Sun, GOD showing up (that whole freakin' episode was awesome but when the amulet lit up in Dean's pocket?  Blown-away). This was just an EPIC season.  You don't want it every year, but by gum, I think they really did a fabulous job.  The year FELT big.  
- Dean and Amara's UNCOMFORTABLE relationship.  I know this was a deal-breaker for many, but I liked how the two of them interacted.  She was so OPEN with him.  So trusting. Even when he tried to kill her.  And I really liked how Emily Swallow played Amara.  She, and the younger actresses, was both snarky and naive at the same time.  And it worked for me.  I never felt like Amara was truly EVIL.  I felt like she was just completely and utterly different.  She really never "got" free will, yet in the end she respected Dean's when he essentially rejected her in the forest.  And she learned empathy from Dean.  She knew something was 'holding him back' and she felt bad for him.  And Jensen did a GREAT job, IMO, of showing that he absolutely wanted her gone but was still very much in pain over her plight in "We Happy Few".  The looks of concern for each other were so very well done.  I DO think this is something that does better on rewatch.  Because were not worried about her just taking his soul. Yes she initiated a kiss with him and he had no control.  I'm going to give her a pass since she really DIDN'T understand why it was wrong and frankly was just as surprised by it as he was.  But the big 'sexual threat' that hovered over the season for many never materialized.  So, it allows me to appreciate the scenes on re-watch.
- Sam saying "No" to Lucifer.  He's come so far.  I really felt like Sam had a victory in that episode. I also loved the way he IMMEDIATELY told Dean that being attracted to Amara was not Dean's fault.  That he had no choice in the matter.  That scene at the end of "Love Hurts" was everything I could have wanted and more.
- Billy.  She was singularly focused on casting Sam and Dean into the nothingness BUT the character was so very well done.  She was a WORTHY antagonist.  I loved her little "okay" in Alpha and Omega.  The woman spoke so very few words but I was often hanging on each one.  Lisa Berry really did a great job in that role.
- "Mom?" cliffhanger.
 

Liked:
- The MOTW episodes were good. "Just My Imagination" with the lady having sparkle-blood all over her face -- that still makes me laugh tremendously.  Red Meat was excellent as well.  My heart was in my throat the ENTIRE TIME.  I also loved flirty Dee Wallace.  Just a lot of memorable MOTW episodes.  Oh, and we got BOTH Donna and Jody back.  That was good stuff.
- Rowena and Crowley. This is close to a "loved".  Those two are delicious together. I especially liked when they were watching from the peanut gallery as Luci and Sam 'chatted'.

Meh:
- Castiel saying 'yes' to Luci.  Misha did a good job IMO but I just felt like Cas didn't get a great story in S11.  I need Cas to have a definitive arc.  I felt like he started off absolutely shattered, slid further into depression, and finished thinking Lucifer was free and Dean was dead.  Cas needs some happy every once in a while.  We just didn't have any of that IMO.  Except for the Netflix and chill.  That was nice.
- Gunshot for Sam cliffhanger.  Just was never really worried.  

NOPE:
- The creatures in Chitters.  Too gross for me.
- The distraction of Lady Toni.  She was just too cardboard British for my tastes.

Bottom Line: S11 is a season I'll be rewatching often.  I really loved it.  

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Cas saying 'yes' to Luci.  Misha did a good job IMO but I just felt like Cas didn't get a great story in S11.  I need Cas to have a definitive arc.  I felt like he started off absolutely shattered, slid further into depression, and finished thinking Lucifer was free and Dean was dead.  Cas needs some happy every once in a while.  We just didn't have any of that IMO.  Except for the Netflix and chill.  That was nice..  

I agree with this so much! The Casifier storyline wasn't handled greatly although Misha clearly had fun with it!

IMO Castiel is definitely the writers favourite to heap misery on. I mean don't get me wrong, they put Sam and Dean through a lot. However, we do get treated to little moments / episodes where we see them getting to be happy and have fun amongst the misery. We don't get that with Castiel anymore. I honestly can't remember the last time he wasn't shown to be one of stressed, angry, depressed or self-loathing.

[Geordiegirl1967]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Well, we know from convention interviews that the last few episodes of season 11 were very much a group effort.

But that was only needed because Carver had already left the building to take over his new show (which looks likely to be cancelled - so he may be regretting walking away). And I think it was known that Dabb was taking over, and he was in charge at that point. So probably a combination of factors but Dabb's influence was significant.

10 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

n regards to Dabb and season 12! I think the decreased focus on the brothers and the more ensemble like feel could be just as easily down to J2s need for time off due to the birth of kids and a general desire to be with their families

Sorry but I don't agree. I can think of many times this season when scenes both the Js were already in could have been written differently to give more focus to their relationship. It wouldn't have required them to have any less time off. Examples include;

• the dreadfully lacklustre and unemotional scenes when Sam was missing and when they were reunited. Dean wasn't worried enough. Sam never mentioned that he thought Dean was dead. There was no recognition of that and no hug or other indication of relief when they saw each other.
• when they saw each other after weeks of solitary confinement followed by a risky 'let's both die' Hail Mary plan there was literally zero emotion, no hug, no 'good to see you, you ok?', nothing. Woeful underwriting of resolving who was going to die to meet their deal with the Reaper.
• there has been almost no conversation between the brothers about how they feel about Mary being back. No scenes of her watching them talk or hunt together and reflecting on how close they are, how good a team. Mary could have said how glad she is they had each other. They could have told her some stuff about what it was like for them. One 'I was never a child' from Dean just isn't enough.

I could go on and on, but s12 has been one long disappointment for people like me who watch for the brothers' relationship. I can barely think of one moment I would want to go back and watch again. And I don't think it is because of the Js new arrivals / family commitments. They have already both got married and had 3 kids between them all while shooting the show. Plus Jensen has directed several times and Jared has dislocated his shoulder. All done without seriously compromising the show. 

Even ignoring what is my main focus i.e. the relationship, where is the quality of the writing? Where are this season's stand out eps; where is the Red Meat / Baby / Fan Fiction / Sacrifice / About a Boy etc? In the early years every other ep was pretty much a classic, and yes the frequency of those has decreased, but up to now every season has had enough of them to keep people coming back in the hope they will see something really special at least 3 or 4 times a season. This year not so much. 

I hope you are right about s13 but I am not sure Dabb knows how or is even interested in writing for Sam and Dean. He seems far more interested in writing for Crowley, Mary, Lucifer etc.

[Diane]

Loved season 11, also my favorite since season 7 which I loved. I absolutely loved the MOTW episodes, all of them. The myth arc episodes were good too, I liked Chuck as God and didn't mind the Amara. Glad Metetron got his redemption (love Curtis Armstrong great actor), over all great season, it was a pleasure after season 10.

[auntvi]

14 minutes ago, SueB said:

Castiel saying 'yes' to Luci.

I agree about everything except this and Amara.

Castiel as Lucifer just didn't work for me, the parody of Mark Pellagrino's Lucifer made me cringe.

I didn't like adult Amara from the beginning. It may be just me, but I didn't believe that she was dangerous. And I found her relationship with Dean was too hazy for me. I could never see anything at all happening between them.

28 minutes ago, SueB said:

"Just My Imagination" with the lady having sparkle-blood all over her face

That may be my favorite scene all season - the reaction shots were great!

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I LOVED s11. It was probably my fave since s7 (yes I loved s7).

I agree with all of this.

I didn't even mind the ending. I liked the positive solution. And hey at least Sam didn't give up, fail, or start another apocalypse, so I consider that a big win compared to the previous 3 season finales.

Quite a few of the episodes ended up on my favorites list, too, so that's another win.

53 minutes ago, SueB said:

Bottom Line: S11 is a season I'll be rewatching often.  I really loved it.  

Agreed.
 

[rue721]

6 hours ago, sarthaz said:

What's everyone's feeling on Season 11?

I liked it overall, although it didn't really hold my interest. I inadvertently dipped out near the end of the season and didn't come back until I was looking for something to watch during a workout and finally ended up catching We Happy Few. It was a bad episode if you were really trying to watch and feeling invested in the show and stuff, but it's not bad to do planks to lol.

My issue was that the mytharc didn't interest me at all. I just 100% don't care about God or Lucifer (or heaven or hell or ~the cosmos~ in general, I guess) and I didn't understand what was even meant to be going on with Amara. Her story was just too big and existential, and I'm more of a "can we watch these guys hunt a ghost? maybe an EXTRA CREEPY ghost this time if you're feeling fancy?" kind of girl. I like the smaller stories. And I also didn't see the "connection" between Amara and Dean, although we were probably meant to. I didn't understand where that supposed connection was coming from or even how strong it was, so the whole time I was busy wondering if it even existed rather than feeling...I dunno, suspense as to what would become of it. Also, I did like the kid actors for Amara, especially the one who played her at around 12. But the adult actor just didn't bring the gravitas IMO. I wasn't feeling it. YMMV.

That said, I liked the tone of the show more and the characterizations more in S11 than I did for S8-10, and that's really what I care about at the end of the day. I would say it was a good season. Better than 10, which was better than 9, which was better than 8 IMO.

But I've also got the UO that I think this season has been great. There have been stinkers and all -- but during the Carver years I felt like I was  watching a spin-off of SPN because the tone and aesthetic and characterization in the show were so different from how they had used to be, and as of this season, I don't feel like that anymore.

[ILoveReading]

I had the opposite view of s11.  It's my least favorite season. (although 12 is giving it a run for its money)  I found it dull, uninspired, to many dropped plot points and to many leaps in logic to make certain story lines work, and it contains the worst episode of the entire series.  

I thought the season got off to a good start right up until episode 5.  I found it fell over the rails in ep 6 when they made Amara God's sister.  It was a story was that was too big and really left the writers no options other than to bring in God.  Something they clearly struggled with, as evidenced by the last 3 episodes.  (My wishful thinking is that they would have been better off just making Amara the living embodiment of all the negative energy stored in the mark, then the whole Chuck mess could been avoided)  

I personally believe that Carver checked out pretty much after he wrote the premier and Dabb was unofficially in charge the majority of the season.  I think the last 3rd of season fell apart because Dabb had zero interest in  the Amara story line.  I think that showed right from comic con.  The premier focused heavily on Dean and Amara having a connection yet there was zero mention of this from anyone except Jensen, who gave one vague remark about how there might be but he hadn't seen anything in the four eps.

-The Dean and Amara connection was never given proper focus or developed.  It was basically the same scene over and over again. To this day I still have no idea exactly why they had a connection or what it meant or what Amara wanted from Dean.  It kept changing.  I think if you asked the writers they really didn't either.  If it was just because of the mark then why wasn't Amara drawn to Lucifer the way she was Dean.

-In the Premier, Amara said that they would never let anything bad happen to each other?  What happened to this. It was like no writer knew this line existed.

-No consequences for killing death.  What should have been a big plot point turned out to be no more than just killing a monster of the week.

-Sam and Dean's relationship was stronger because the writers just ignored everything that happened between them.  They just swept it under the rug and pretended it didn't happen.   Sam using the book behind Dean's back should have been addressed, especially since Sam spent an entire half season raking Dean over the coals for doing the same thing.   I'd have liked some acknowledgement of that. 

- Bringing back Lucifer.  His story ended in s5.  There was zero reason for Sam to suddenly decide that God reached out to him personally.  God hasn't intervened in centuries, so why would Sam suddenly think its God? Why would he tell him to go Lucifer?  Lucifer hates humanity and wants to destroy it.  Why would God tell anyone to ask him for help?  Why would Lucifer even want to?   This didn't occur to anyone?  Chuck had to point it out to them.

-Amara spends all season searching for God, and when God shows up she wards herself.  That makes about as much sense as Sam going into the cage.

-Ignoring Michael and coming up with the worst possible reason why he couldn't be involved.   God's most powerful archangel is really just a weakling.

-I won't even go into the massive problems I had with 11.17 as its my hot button issue.

-They had no idea how to deal with the whole Amara/Chuck thing, and it showed.  I think this season is a good example of writers not talking to each other and just ignoring things they didn't want to deal with.

- Giving Sam the mark.  I don't care if it was only for a hot minute.  Apparently being worthy to carry it just means you didn't have it before.   It just felt like te writers wanted an excuse to give it to Sam.  It completely retconned all the stuff with Cain.

-I disliked that once again Dean making very valid points in confronting someone was just again reduced to Dean having issues.  I dont' think he was confusing God with this dad.

There were a few good moment- Baby, Beyond The Mat (I love when Dean lets his guard down and just lets loose and has some fun), The Vessel, The Premier, The Bad Seed, Thin Lizzie, Dean interactions with Mildred, and Dean's talk with God in episode 21.   But overall I felt the season was pretty weak.

[Geordiegirl1967]

34 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I had the opposite view of s11.  It's my least favorite season. (although 12 is giving it a run for its money)

Its funny because I actually agree with alot of your points yet I still loved s11. Just shows that, for me at least, if they write the brothers characters and relationships well - which they did in s11 IMO - I can put up with an awful lot of other stuff being below par.

36 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The Dean and Amara connection was never given proper focus or developed

I agree. It made no sense from what we saw onscreen and was never explained why she felt a connection to him. He bore the MoC, but it was Sam and Cas who freed her. Why no 'special connection' with them? I think Dean is very important but the show never clarified why Amara did.

39 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

No consequences for killing death

Totally agree. I am still holding out a vain hope that we see an impact from this in s12 but its unlikely. That could have been a good plot line for s12. I am far more interested in Death at this point than Luci.

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Bringing back Lucifer.  His story ended in s5

Totally agree. I am soooo over Lucifer. He has lost all his power to scare or shock and should have remained an idea. I don't mind that Sam thought God was speaking to him. He has always had faith and he thought what he was hearing was an answer to his prayers. I do think going into the Cage was stupid though I thought the scenes where Luci tried to turn him was great. However Cas saying yes to Lucifer......don't even gets started on the utter ooc stupidity that was that decision!

43 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They had no idea how to deal with the whole Amara/Chuck thing, and it showed

DCMS was such an amazing episode and then they completely blew the end of the season. Such a shame.

44 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Giving Sam the mark

I don't actually remember that happening. Which ep was it? 

45 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I disliked that once again Dean making very valid points in confronting someone was just again reduced to Dean having issues.  I dont' think he was confusing God with this dad.

If you are talking about the Chuck/God daddy issues talk then I totally agree. To reduce all the questions they would have and all the amazing options for those scenes to Dean's daddy issues and Sam babbling about why planets are round. Stupid.

But I loved so many of the eps; Baby, Red Meat, The Vessel, Thin Lizzy, Into the Mystic, DYFAM, Safe House, The Chitters, and I loved that the brothers were in synch and no drama. 

So re your comment 

50 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam and Dean's relationship was stronger because the writers just ignored everything that happened between them.  They just swept it under the rug and pretended it didn't happen.   Sam using the book behind Dean's back should have been addressed, especially since Sam spent an entire half season raking Dean over the coals for doing the same thing.   I'd have liked some acknowledgement of that. 

I actually saw that fact that Dean didn't make more of a fuss about what Sam did as growth between both of them. Dean was deeply hurt and Sam was ashamed that Sam didn't look for Dean in Purgatory. Dean was hauled over the coals by Sam for going too far in saving him by agreeing to let Gadreel possess him. Then Sam, when faced with the same kind of decision realised that there was no limit to how far HE would go to save Dean - putting the Gadreel thing to bed for Sam. And Dean saw how far Sam had gone and realised that it was partly Sam trying to show him how much he meant to him and to make up for not looking for him in Purgatory. Sam even admitted that despite setting the Darkness free he would do it again to save his brother. 

Where they ended up was a realisation that they would both bend the rules beyond breaking point to save each other. It may not be a pretty conclusion but it rebalanced their relationship (from one where it felt like it was always Dean going the extra mile to save Sam and not vice versa) and enabled both to put past demons to bed. So I found that very satisfying.

[Pondlass1]

@ILoveReading Brilliant post!!  I agree with it all.    

[sarthaz]

1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Its funny because I actually agree with alot of your points yet I still loved s11. Just shows that, for me at least, if they write the brothers characters and relationships well - which they did in s11 IMO - I can put up with an awful lot of other stuff being below par.

Ha!  I was typing the same thing when you're reply showed up.  I do think Season 11 has a lot of issues, and I agree with many of @ILoveReading's points about God and Amara.  I think they botched a lot of the mytharc stuff, but the smaller brother-to-brother monster-hunting stuff -- which for me is the core of the show -- resonated with me much better than 8-10.  And I totally agree about Death.  Which is why I continue to fanwank that he's not dead, because it makes no sense otherwise.

One area where I totally disagree, though, is Dean and Sam burying some resentment.  That's growth.  True growth and maturity is learning to let go of all the baggage and resentment that ruins relationships and ultimately just makes your own life suck more.  This is true for them even more than you and I, because every time one of them gets pissy and unforgivey about something, they make stupid decisions and break the world.  It's about damn time they figured this out and matured enough to realize that they both love each other, they're both trying to save the world, and they're both doing the best they can under incredible circumstances.  Pouty angst only has value to drive dramatic conflict, and after 10 seasons, I was pretty damn tired of it.  I was proud of Dean for letting it go.

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Ha!  I was typing the same thing when you're reply showed up.  I do think Season 11 has a lot of issues, and I agree with many of @ILoveReading's points about God and Amara.  I think they botched a lot of the mytharc stuff, but the smaller brother-to-brother monster-hunting stuff -- which for me is the core of the show -- resonated with me much better than 8-10.  And I totally agree about Death.  Which is why I continue to fanwank that he's not dead, because it makes no sense otherwise.

One area where I totally disagree, though, is Dean and Sam burying some resentment.  That's growth.  True growth and maturity is learning to let go of all the baggage and resentment that ruins relationships and ultimately just makes your own life suck more.  This is true for them even more than you and I, because every time one of them gets pissy and unforgivey about something, they make stupid decisions and break the world.  It's about damn time they figured this out and matured enough to realize that they both love each other, they're both trying to save the world, and they're both doing the best they can under incredible circumstances.  Pouty angst only has value to drive dramatic conflict, and after 10 seasons, I was pretty damn tired of it.  I was proud of Dean for letting it go.

I'm not saying we needed a season long cold shoulder, but I would have at least liked a scene where it was at least addressed. The bolded part is really where my main issue lies because its usually Dean letting it go where as the show allows Sam to hold on to his anger.  But that's an issue  better left for the bitch/jerk thread.

23 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I don't actually remember that happening. Which ep was it? 

It happened at the end of We Happy Few.  It was only brief but the length doesn't matter.  I didn't like that they went there in the first place.  It was completely unnecessary. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

18 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

One area where I totally disagree, though, is Dean and Sam burying some resentment.  That's growth.  True growth and maturity is learning to let go of all the baggage and resentment that ruins relationships and ultimately just makes your own life suck more.  This is true for them even more than you and I, because every time one of them gets pissy and unforgivey about something, they make stupid decisions and break the world.  It's about damn time they figured this out and matured enough to realize that they both love each other, they're both trying to save the world, and they're both doing the best they can under incredible circumstances.  Pouty angst only has value to drive dramatic conflict, and after 10 seasons, I was pretty damn tired of it.  I was proud of Dean for letting it go

This ! Totally agree. Though I don't think just Dean 'let it go'. Sam let the Gadreel thing go too.

Just now, ILoveReading said:

It happened at the end of We Happy Few.  It was only brief but the length doesn't matter.  I didn't like that they went there in the first place.  It was completely unnecessary. 

I obviously blinked and missed this. Even now you've clarified I have no recollection. But then those last 3 eps of s11 were such a disappointment I've never watched them again. 

[sarthaz]

5 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

This ! Totally agree. Though I don't think just Dean 'let it go'. Sam let the Gadreel thing go too.

I obviously blinked and missed this. Even now you've clarified I have no recollection. But then those last 3 eps of s11 were such a disappointment I've never watched them again. 

It was Sam and Chuck's secret plan.  In order to lock Amara up, the mark had to go somewhere.  "Sam volunteered."

[DittyDotDot]

33 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I do think Season 11 has a lot of issues, and I agree with many of @ILoveReading's points about God and Amara.  I think they botched a lot of the mytharc stuff, but the smaller brother-to-brother monster-hunting stuff -- which for me is the core of the show -- resonated with me much better than 8-10.

TBH, I don't think the show has had a strong myth arc since Kripke tied up his five-year arc back in S5. Since then, IMO, no one has had an actual story to tell. They have ideas they like to noodle with, but not enough to fill 23 episodes of story. So they meander all over the place.

I actually would be cool with them getting away from the serial nature of the show and have them just hunting randoms at this point. There's really nowhere left for the characters to "develop," we've done it all at this point at least once, if not multiple times over. And, they generally have to make them go two steps back so they can have them come one step forward again. TBH, I think Sam and Dean are kinda caricatures of who they used to be because of it.

Anyway, A less serial nature would allow them to more organically bring in recurring characters without the audience wondering what they're up to when they're not on screen. Basically, I think they just need to scale everything back. Which I had high hopes that's what they were going to do this season, but those were dashed pretty quickly. 

That being said, overall, S12 is working for me about the same most of S11 did. They meandered all over the place and I couldn't have cared less about Lucifer or God, but the little stories were enjoyable enough to keep me placated. 

[sarthaz]

I'd like to see season-long arcs like "Dean has misplaced one of his slippers in the bunker" or "Sam can't find a decent barber".  Simple is good with me as long as the brothers are saving people and hunting things.

[Wayward Son]

I agree with your post for the most part @ILoveReading . The mytharc was definitely an utter mess and the weakest part of the season. 

I think a bit like @Geordiegirl1967 said the fact that Sam and Dean's dynamic was rather strong has made me willing to forgive these weaknesses and remember the season fondly. After the mess they made of the brothers relationship in s8-10 seeing them just be brothers again was a huge relief. 

Plus episodes like Baby, The Vessel and Safe House were the strongest the show has produced in years IMO.

[Katy M]

11 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I'd like to see season-long arcs like "Dean has misplaced one of his slippers in the bunker" or "Sam can't find a decent barber".  Simple is good with me as long as the brothers are saving people and hunting things.

See, I would just rather not have the mytharcs.  Season 1-5 was well plotted out, so that was fine.  but after that, I much prefer the stand alone episodes to anything else.  By all means have some story arcs that run 3 to 5 episodes, but I, for one, do not need a drag out of a story to take a whole season. 

[DittyDotDot]

27 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

I'd like to see season-long arcs like "Dean has misplaced one of his slippers in the bunker" or "Sam can't find a decent barber".  Simple is good with me as long as the brothers are saving people and hunting things.

::snort:: How about "who cleans the freaking bunker" myth arc? ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

::snort:: How about "who cleans the freaking bunker" myth arc? ;)

Or...they go through the old MoL spells one by one, trying some out, and something goes wrong.  Not "cosmic consequences" wrong, just like maybe they try a spell to clean the bunker a la "Fantasia" and end up with it being TP'd when they get back from a hunt.  

13 hours ago, rue721 said:

That said, I liked the tone of the show more and the characterizations more in S11 than I did for S8-10, and that's really what I care about at the end of the day. I would say it was a good season. Better than 10, which was better than 9, which was better than 8 IMO.

But I've also got the UO that I think this season has been great. There have been stinkers and all -- but during the Carver years I felt like I was  watching a spin-off of SPN because the tone and aesthetic and characterization in the show were so different from how they had used to be, and as of this season, I don't feel like that anymore.

I completely agree with this.  Especially about S8, 9, 10, & 12.  I'm just glad it seems like we're out of the era of the "petty little jerks" as Triple D likes to say.  

[Aeryn13]

In previous Seasons I enjoyed the standalones much more than the mytharc episodes but not in Season 11. Like Season 2? Give me the standalones any day. Last year the Amara-mytharc was underdeveloped but dear God did I hate the standalones for the most part. Baby, Thin Lizzie, Safe House and Chitters were about the only ones I liked out of the whole Season. The Vessel was such a letdown. I love time travel stories but that sucked. And the werewold ep as well as the Zanna ep were by far my least favourite of the Season.

The Finale could have been epic. Sadly it wasn`t but I kinda have to love it since it`s all I have in terms of what I want from this frigging show. Lowered standards and all. 

Season 12 is rather a complete bust so far and has gotten progressively worse since coming back from mid-Season break. There aren`t much real standalones this year, some usually have a mytharc-tease strewn in. And neither part works for me. I want Lucifer gone, gone gone. And both Mary and the BMOL are welcome to join him.   

[catrox14]

I didn't much like for s11 in it's entirety.

I was pretty much annoyed with S11 the moment they had Sam lecture Dean about Saving people. It implied a premise that didn't  exist AT ALL. It threw both brothers under a bus that was never running in the first place. It was a false choice unsupported by the history of the show because "Saving People, Hunting Things" was never about saving ALL the people. They had to accept they couldnt save everyone. Maybe if Sam had just said that he himself forgot and left Dean out of his guilt trip over letting  Lucifer out if the cage and letting the Darkness out , I might've been okay with it.

Dean asking Sam to stop the trials and Sam agreeing to stop, did NOT condemn all of humanity to death. The only thing finishing the trials would have done was send  DEMONS back to Hell. It wasn't going to rid Earth of all the other monsters. So the boys would have continued "Saving People, Hunting ALL the other things that were a threat to  humanity and the world would have been without the 2nd best hunter in the world if Sam died. That's why I never thought Sam agreeing to stop was a selfish decision. To me, they were going to live to fight another day.

Similarly, Dean wanting to save Cas and the baby was not  Dean not wanting to save other people who had been infected. He had no evidence they could be saved neither did Sam. Sam's praying and hope for a cure is not evidence.

So for me, that whole "WHEN DID WE FORGET SAVING PEOPLE" was a load of crap in the first place. Dean never forgot because he still hunted even with the Mark (other than when he was a demon which gets a Mulligan).

Dean's connection to the Darkness was both creepy non-con mind control and pointless, IMO. The connection didn't do anything except make Dean weaker and less confident. It didn't help other than Amara using it to find Guck and that was really more that Cas and Deans connection than Amara's.

Chuck being God is IMO  a  ridiculous retcon that has too many holes. I never cared about Dean's amulet once he tossed it. And I've stopped calling it The Samulet because it wasn't Sam's. It was Dean's to do with what he wanted. I mean that's how gifts work. So seeing that back was annoying for me and I don't think it did Sam any favors to think he went dumpster diving to retrieve it. I can give it a pass so long as it has it was more like Guck made a new one or found it in some dumpster somwhere or it was the Journey of Dean's amulet from the trashcan to Guck to  Sam's pocket.

...I have more thoughts. I'll be back

[SueB]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

1) -In the Premier, Amara said that they would never let anything bad happen to each other?  What happened to this. It was like no writer knew this line existed.

-No consequences for killing death.  What should have been a big plot point turned out to be no more than just killing a monster of the week.

2) -Sam and Dean's relationship was stronger because the writers just ignored everything that happened between them.  They just swept it under the rug and pretended it didn't happen.   Sam using the book behind Dean's back should have been addressed, especially since Sam spent an entire half season raking Dean over the coals for doing the same thing.   I'd have liked some acknowledgement of that. 

- Bringing back Lucifer.  His story ended in s5.  There was zero reason for Sam to suddenly decide that God reached out to him personally.  God hasn't intervened in centuries, so why would Sam suddenly think its God? Why would he tell him to go Lucifer?  Lucifer hates humanity and wants to destroy it.  Why would God tell anyone to ask him for help?  Why would Lucifer even want to?   This didn't occur to anyone?  Chuck had to point it out to them.

-Amara spends all season searching for God, and when God shows up she wards herself.  That makes about as much sense as Sam going into the cage.

-Ignoring Michael and coming up with the worst possible reason why he couldn't be involved.   God's most powerful archangel is really just a weakling.

-I won't even go into the massive problems I had with 11.17 as its my hot button issue.

3) -They had no idea how to deal with the whole Amara/Chuck thing, and it showed.  I think this season is a good example of writers not talking to each other and just ignoring things they didn't want to deal with.

4) - Giving Sam the mark.  I don't care if it was only for a hot minute.  Apparently being worthy to carry it just means you didn't have it before.   It just felt like te writers wanted an excuse to give it to Sam.  It completely retconned all the stuff with Cain.

5)-I disliked that once again Dean making very valid points in confronting someone was just again reduced to Dean having issues.  I dont' think he was confusing God with this dad.

There were a few good moment- Baby, Beyond The Mat (I love when Dean lets his guard down and just lets loose and has some fun), The Vessel, The Premier, The Bad Seed, Thin Lizzie, Dean interactions with Mildred, and Dean's talk with God in episode 21.   But overall I felt the season was pretty weak.

emphasis and numbering mine

1) I don't understand this comment at all. The inability to hurt each other was brought up over and over again:
- verbally & explicitly: Our Little World, Love Hurts, The Vessel, Don't Call Me Shurley, We Happy Few, and Alpha and Omega
- non-verbal: Form and Void, Oh Brother Where Art Thou?, Hell's Angels, Don't Call Me Shurley, All In the Family, We Happy Few
Grouping into four different categories for clarity.
Amara can't hurt Dean: went to suck his soul and couldn't so kissed him instead, her fog didn't hurt him, ASKS him to join her in 11.22 because she can't just take what she wants
Amara protects Dean: safe passage for Dean out of Crowley's, freed him from Luci's hold, zaps him away from ground zero of smite-ville, wanted him to join with her once God showed up, didn't kill him when she found out he'd been in contact with God
Dean can't hurt Amara: couldn't stab her at Crowleys, knife failed when he DID try to stab he, admits to Sam he can't hurt her (2+ episodes), tried to argue for God to kill Amara (because he couldn't), didn't pull the 'trigger', reminded by Amara of how many times he has wanted to kill her and didn't
Dean protects Amara: attacks Crowley when he threatens infant Amara, tries to talk her out of fighting the Angels, tries to go to her when she comes through the door damaged by the witch/angel/demon assault.

2)  I'd have liked some acknowledgement of that. in S10 Dean took Sam to task (rather harshly) for going being his back, telling Sam he wished Sam was dead instead of Charlie.  In the finale, Dean's rationale for nearly killing Sam included this same issue.  In the S11 opener, Dean reminds Sam he didn't want him fooling with the Mark and Sam admits that he'd do it again -- and that THIS is the problem.  So Sam himself is acknowledging, in a very parallel way, that like Dean, he'd go against the other's persons wishes. "In a heartbeat."  The net result is that between BOTH Dean (in S10 finale) and Sam (in S11 opener), acknowledged that they have problematic behavior which both ignores the other persons' wishes and results in damage to innocents.  Later, in S11, Cas is the one who has gone off and done something against Sam and Dean's wishes.  They have a conversation, while playing beer bowling, that they have a policy of respecting each others decisions.  They agree to this.  And then they also promptly agree to save Cas anyway.  So, I think they fully acknowledged it.  Perhaps it wasn't a vicious enough take-down for you?  IDK.  But the issue was certainly covered, on at least 4-5 occasions so it was certainly "acknowledged".

3) I think they HAD a plan for Amara/Chuck but it was a bad plan. We know they were planning on killing Chuck so I presume Amara would have to go as well).  The network rightly, IMO, said "not so fast" and they had to re-wicker so they didn't kill off God.  So, I think it's less of "no plan/coordination" than "too controversial" and they had to scramble to revise.

4) There was no statement of "worthy" made regarding Sam.  And one could presume that simply being an Archangel-class vessel is probably the only physical requirement IF one exists.  What made Cain say Dean was worthy was about Dean's personality.  What made Sam the 'carrier' was him being literally the only untainted/non-Supernatural entity on the team.  They could have gotten some ordinary Joe to do it but that makes no sense at all.  I think this did NOTHING to retcon the Cain relationship with Dean.  They related on an entirely different level.  Sam was chosen to be the 'carrier' of a curse, not the bearer of a weapon (a second-order effect).  Dean was chosen by Cain to bear the weapon and knew it had dark consequences.  

5) Since Dean didn't back down, and in fact sassed right back at God, I don't think the show 'reduced' Dean's reasons. At all.  Further, the show was not all "yay!Chuck".  It generally showed him positive but he could definitely be an ass. And this was clear through all four episodes.  So, IMO, Dean's legitimate issues with God's choices were NOT de-legitimized by the show.  Instead, it came across as a God looking to deflect criticism.  

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

5) Since Dean didn't back down, and in fact sassed right back at God, I don't think the show 'reduced' Dean's reasons. At all.  Further, the show was not all "yay!Chuck".  It generally showed him positive but he could definitely be an ass. And this was clear through all four episodes.  So, IMO, Dean's legitimate issues with God's choices were NOT de-legitimized by the show.  Instead, it came across as a God looking to deflect criticism.  

This is one of those interpretation things.

I've seen it defended from both sides in various reviews and commentary here and elsewhere. IMO Dean was absolutely in the right and that he did make proper arguments against Guck's bullshit "parenting" and bailing on humanity. Unfortunately I don't think the writing agrees with me given that the scene ended with Guck having the last word.  And AFAIK Dean's issues were never addressed again that I can recall.

Quote

Dean: But it didn't get better.

Chuck: Well, I've been mulling it over. And from where I sit, I think it has.

Dean: Well, from where I sit, it feels like you left us and you're trying to justify it.

Chuck: I know you had a complicated upbringing, Dean, but don't confuse me with your dad

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

emphasis and numbering mine

Amara can't hurt Dean: went to suck his soul and couldn't so kissed him instead, her fog didn't hurt him,

I'll address your other points later but it was never confirmed whether Amara didn't take Dean's soul because she couldn't or decided not too.  I remember Carver was specifically asked this question.  His answer was disappointing in that he said he would leave it up to viewers to decide and interpret it in their own way."  That basically tells me TPTB had no idea and didn't consider it an important plot point.

Its another reason why I don't think there was any real interest in the storyline.  Because not taking Dean's soul was big, and why she didn't should have been addressed.

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

This is one of those interpretation things.

I've seen it defended from both sides in various reviews and commentary here and elsewhere. IMO Dean was absolutely in the right and that he did make proper arguments against Guck's bullshit "parenting" and bailing on humanity. Unfortunately I don't think the writing agrees with me given that the scene ended with Guck having the last word.  And AFAIK Dean's issues were never addressed again that I can recall.

You are correct that in THAT discussion God got the last word. But the NEXT conversation makes it clear that Dean did NOT accept God's deflection, and God knows it:
 

Quote

Chuck: You wanted to talk. This seemed as good a place as any. [watching boy playing in sandbox with blocks] Look at him – endlessly optimistic. The wind blows over his tower, he rebuilds. Always gets me.

Dean: If that's so, why are you bailing? When you see Amara, you're throwing in the towel?

Chuck: [Sighs] Metatron. Loose lips. But you think I'm a dick. Why do you care?

Dean: Because before you went M.I.A... you did a lot.

Chuck: Thank you. And what you call throwing in the towel, I call strategy.

Dean: How is death by your sister a strategy?

Chuck: I know her. Her beef is with me.

Dean: Yeah, but I still don't understand how – how dying is a – a blueprint for success.

Chuck: I won't be dying. I'll be caged. I trade myself for... everything I created. It goes on.

Dean: Okay, well, the, um, Amara that I know is... a mountain of – of pissed off. I mean, she spent a – a gazillion years in solitary. The only thing she's thinking is – is it's her turn.

Chuck: And I'll give it to her, as long as she accepts the deal.

Dean: The deal? What... She's gonna eliminate you, and then she's gonna destroy everything that you've created. She's told me this personally. [Sighs] You started this. You started all of this, but does that give you the right to end it? You know, we're not just some toys you throw away. I think you owe us more than that.

Chuck: If my plan doesn't work, then humans will step up. You, Sam, others that are the chosen will have to find a way. It's why I saved you years ago. You're the firewall between light and darkness.

Dean: No. No, I... Look, give me a – a vampire, and I'm good. But this – God's sister? That is way above my pay grade. I... It... Bottom line is i-it's you who has to take her out. And look, then after that, you know, get a condo in Cancun. I don't care!

Re: the bolded part

1) God acknowledges Dean thinks he's a dick.
2) Dean ARGUES with God that his 'sacrifice' plan won't work and that God owes humanity more that just throwing us away like toys.
3) God counters that humans will fix it and Dean rejects that.

So what happens next? They get Luci and God steps up to fight.  Did he step up to fight because suddenly he thinks with Luci they can win (because he said that wasn't enough) or because Dean convinced God that he had to do more than just sacrifice himself.

I think the answer is obvious -- Dean convinced God to do something different than his original plan. SO, IMO (and yes, I accept there's always the ability to interpret things differently), this is a pretty clear case that ultimately in the argument between Dean and God, Dean won at least THIS round.

Put simplistically:
1) Dean thinks God's a dick because he lets people get hurt.
2) God thinks he's doing the right thing and (IMO) tries to deflect Dean's argument by bringing up Daddy issues.
3) Dean pushes at God to actively opposed Amara rather than just hope his 'sacrifice' plan works.
4) God actively engages Amara.  

If this was a war, I'd say Dean clearly did not win the 'war' on God being more involved. He won ONE battle -- actively engage to defeat the Darkness (round 2).  And ultimately God failed to defeat the Darkness.  Dean negotiated a happy ending.  But God, being who he is, once again LEFT the planet in Dean and Sam's hands.  So, Dean won the battle, lost the war.

But NONE of that made God right that Dean's whole argument was based on Daddy issues.  If that is all it was, God would not have engaged with Dean AGAIN while sitting on the park bench.  And he didn't try to bring up the Daddy issues either.  God knew, himself, that this was just a deflection.  

Bottom line: God and Dean do NOT see eye to eye on His involvement as a general principle.  Dean thinks he needs to save people routinely, God thinks he needs to let people have free will and make their own way (good or bad). In the case of Amara, he accepted Dean's logic for involvement and Dean accepted that he would go away after that. But if Dean's entire beef with God was just "Daddy issues", then Dean would not have been successful in turning God's plan around.  Dean gave God quite the earful in those last three episodes.  I think we should look beyond the one scene and see Dean's opinions were ultimately NOT belittled.  I think they ultimately saved the freakin' universe. Again.      

Edited March 20, 2017 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

-The Dean and Amara connection was never given proper focus or developed.  It was basically the same scene over and over again. To this day I still have no idea exactly why they had a connection or what it meant or what Amara wanted from Dean.  It kept changing.  I think if you asked the writers they really didn't either.  If it was just because of the mark then why wasn't Amara drawn to Lucifer the way she was Dean.

For me, I thought it was focused on and explained fairly well, and I was able to fill in the rest for myself satisfactorily. The part that made it all click for me was Chuck's lock and key explanation and his talking about how Lucifer was affected, too. And his talk with Metatron filled in a lot of stuff for me. I'm going to try to sum up my interpretation without getting too wordy. Don't know if I'll succeed, but...

I think that it wasn't just the mark affecting Dean - I think it was actually an affect from Amara herself. And I got that from Chuck's descriptions of Amara and how it affected Lucifer also. I look at it like the mark was like a keyhole between Amara and whoever wore the mark, and her destructive nature bled through that keyhole and affected the mark bearer, but a keyhole goes both ways. And what I got from Amara about her describing a connection with Dean was just that - that her destructive nature bled through that "keyhole" but maybe some influence also bled through the other way, and that's why she was "connected" to him.

And I think the reason Amara wasn't drawn to Lucifer in the same way, is because Lucifer was 1) already too corrupted (there was no longer an attraction, because they were now like two negative ends of a magnet) 2) Amara had been looking through that "keyhole" for millennium (same as Cain). There was nothing new to learn there - like looking through the same window for a couple thousand years. A brand new window is going to be much more interesting.

In the final episodes, Chuck and the gang talked about light and dark balancing, and that this was important for restoring the balance to the universe. Dean was like a piece of that light that Amara was drawn to. He represented Chuck's creation, a look into Chuck's world that she was drawn to, because despite her need/want to destroy, she was also curious. And because of their previous "sharing" through the connection of the mark (maybe that's why she couldn't hurt him? That part was left unclear, but I'm okay with that.) she was able to take a closer look. So being able to connect with Dean gave Amara "what she needed" - a closer look at Chuck's creation that she couldn't hurt even if she wanted to or felt compelled to - I compared this before to training wheels on a bicycle, but maybe a better comparison might be a window with bullet proof glass, because I think now maybe it was as much about her not being able to hurt Dean as her not getting hurt.

Anyway, without getting too wordy (or well more wordy, anyway), I thought that was what Dean did for Amara. And after being able to see Dean, she wanted to know more... and I think that's where the older woman came in. It wasn't enough for her to just trust / know Dean - even though that was a crucial first step - she had to try with more... beyond eating their souls, that is (since eating the souls made them a part of her - no longer part of Chuck's creation.) And Dean gave her that courage. She looked through the window, liked what she saw, and that gave her the incentive to want to see more.

And yes, that's my interpretation, but I think that it's a pretty solid one based on the information we have and what was said by Amara and Chuck and what we saw happen in the show.

 

And much love to both of your posts @SueB. I agree with pretty much all of it.

[SueB]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In the final episodes, Chuck and the gang talked about light and dark balancing, and that this was important for restoring the balance to the universe. Dean was like a piece of that light that Amara was drawn to. He represented Chuck's creation, a look into Chuck's world that she was drawn to, because despite her need/want to destroy, she was also curious. And because of their previous "sharing" through the connection of the mark (maybe that's why she couldn't hurt him? That part was left unclear, but I'm okay with that.) she was able to take a closer look. So being able to connect with Dean gave Amara "what she needed" - a closer look at Chuck's creation that she couldn't hurt even if she wanted to or felt compelled to - I compared this before to training wheels on a bicycle, but maybe a better comparison might be a window with bullet proof glass, because I think now maybe it was as much about her not being able to hurt Dean as her not getting hurt.

Anyway, without getting too wordy (or well more wordy, anyway), I thought that was what Dean did for Amara. And after being able to see Dean, she wanted to know more... and I think that's where the older woman came in. It wasn't enough for her to just trust / know Dean - even though that was a crucial first step - she had to try with more... beyond eating their souls, that is (since eating the souls made them a part of her - no longer part of Chuck's creation.) And Dean gave her that courage. She looked through the window, liked what she saw, and that gave her the incentive to want to see more.

@AwesomO4000 Interesting.  I agree that Dean was "Chuck-lite" (oy! the puns!) and that was basis of attraction (versus being repulsed by negative Luci and Cain).  Also, once free of the Mark, Dean got to be in full-on Dean mode.  Which mean "yay Free Will, yay Humanity, nay to killing people".  And this message got through to Amara.  If she hadn't had the build-up of relationship with Dean, the old lady with the birds wouldn't have had any effect.  Even Chuck said that he hoped she would see what he created (then kinda nodded in Dean's direction) and come to see it's value.  So, even though Dean thinks God is a dick, God still used him as his representative.  

So... he wasn't Michael's vessel, but in THIS Mytharc, he was God's agent of LIGHT.  See what I did there? Dean would MUCH rather be a representative of creation than an Angel condom.  So S11 was a definite upgrade for Dean versus S5.  (i.e. he traded up from Micheal for God/all-of-creation).  

*mic drop*

Edited March 21, 2017 by SueB
I can never spell Michael right. Or apparently condom.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Anyway, without getting too wordy (or well more wordy, anyway), I thought that was what Dean did for Amara. And after being able to see Dean, she wanted to know more... and I think that's where the older woman came in. It wasn't enough for her to just trust / know Dean - even though that was a crucial first step - she had to try with more... beyond eating their souls, that is (since eating the souls made them a part of her - no longer part of Chuck's creation.) And Dean gave her that courage. She looked through the window, liked what she saw, and that gave her the incentive to want to see more.

And yes, that's my interpretation, but I think that it's a pretty solid one based on the information we have and what was said by Amara and Chuck and what we saw happen in the show.

I think it`s a lovely interpretation and I wish the show would have ran with this explicitely. They usually have no problems throwing tons of anvils in mytharcs they are interested in conveying but this one felt more like "could be really cool if explored". Like two teaspoons more of epicness would have felt very welcome, especially for the Season Finale. They could have dropped most of the dragging scenes with Lady Deadeyes. But obviously that stuff is Dabb`s area of interest.  

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

I think the answer is obvious -- Dean convinced God to do something different than his original plan. SO, IMO (and yes, I accept there's always the ability to interpret things differently), this is a pretty clear case that ultimately in the argument between Dean and God, Dean won at least THIS round.

 

2 hours ago, SueB said:

But NONE of that made God right that Dean's whole argument was based on Daddy issues.  If that is all it was, God would not have engaged with Dean AGAIN while sitting on the park bench.  And he didn't try to bring up the Daddy issues either.  God knew, himself, that this was just a deflection.  

That's still interpretation though.

Dean was shouting at either Amara or Chuck. Supposing he was shouting at Chuck, that shouting was undermined as soon as Chuck told him to stop confusing him with John.  And it wasn't Dean's words that got him to come to Earth. It was Metatron who shamed Chuck into going back. Literally none of it had to do with Dean. Chuck was fine with Dean remaining a demon as long as Amara was locked away. 

1 hour ago, SueB said:

So... he wasn't Micheal's vessel, but in THIS Mytharc, he was God's agent of LIGHT.  See what I did there? Dean would MUCH rather be a representative of creation than an Angel condum.  So S11 was a definite upgrade for Dean versus S5.  (i.e. he traded up from Micheal for God/all-of-creation).  

*mic drop*

Well, I'm glad that head!canon works, for you.  It's a pleasant fiction. 

IMO, if the show wanted an EXPLICIT Dean as Michael reference they most certainly failed to do that and there is ZERO reason for the show to not have offered that especially given how explicit the show was WRT to Sam and Lucifer.  I don't believe that was the intention in Dean's arc in the least. It's not really a great trade up when the show devalued Michael to the point that a ferret would have been upgrade from Michael at that point.  I know you really do work to find the most optimistic viewpoints but honestly that doesn't really wash for me.

As to the parkbench conversation, IMO that was just another case of Chuck priming Dean for the big dump of responsibility. Just like John did in s2.  It didn't matter that Dean told him to fuck off to Belize or wherever, Chuck still ended up putting the weight of the world on Dean's shoulders.  Some see it as Chuck loving and trusting Dean so much that he trusts the world to him and others see it as Chuck once more dumping the responsibility for mankind onto Dean's shoulders without ASKING Dean if he wanted to do it. Just like John never asked Dean. So how is that treating Dean any better than John? 

[SueB]

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's a pleasant fiction. 

I think it's valid interpretation.  

Edited March 21, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think it's valid interpretation.  

 

Okay?  It's a quote from Gladiator. It means it's a lovely idea that may not be completely true. All of our interpretations/headcanons are fictitious on some level are they not. If someone doesn't agree with my head!canon about something I figure they find it faulty or fictitious from their viewpoint. 

Sorry if I offended you. Wasn't intended.

Edited March 21, 2017 by catrox14