The Blotter Presents

[Pogojoco]

I remember seeing Splendour in the Grass on TV as a preteen and thinking that both Beatty and Wood were supernaturally good looking. And also kind of understanding that denying yourself sex with 1961 Warren Beatty might make you go crazy. It's actually a perfect teenager movie. 


Also, the theme song and Robert Stack's voice used to scare the shit out of me as a kid. I watched Unsolved Mysteries religiously, but it's damn ominous.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Pogojoco

[Primetimer]

Don't be fooled by the inappropriately cutesy name; Investigation Discovery's latest limited series is DARK. Chris and Allison Lowe Huff return to discuss that show, plus a multi-platform New York story.

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[Sarah D. Bunting]

If you remember, can you put it in the Tip Line thread? I'll add it to my prospective-topics list. Thanks!

[Sarah D. Bunting]

bump

[TimeyWimey52]

I binged "Murder on Orchard Street" on Hulu! It was pretty interesting. But the really weird thing to me at the end of the show, is how the Dad, Mom and both brothers (well, the victim's brother - so I guess one brother) have since died. Only the sisters are still living. The Mom and Dad's deaths were talked about a little but what on earth happened to the brother?!

Edited February 28, 2018 by TimeyWimey52

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I was wondering the same thing! I don't know why I didn't just Google it, I guess I thought it would come up later?

[Primetimer]

USA's limited series takes on Biggie and Tupac; a Starz docu takes on an Australian cult; Toby Ball and Sarah D. Bunting take on vague naming conventions.

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[KlavdiaVavilova]

Probably folks have said this on the socials but Scientology is definitely not illegal in Australia. There was a High Court (our SCOTUS) case which established they were a religion and so we're stuck with them and their tax exempt status.  They have schools which like any other private school gets taxpayer money - don't get me started grrr.   They actually had a bit of a moment here in the 90s when Tom Cruise was married to Our Nicole and they were spending a lot of time in Sydney, a bunch of celeb hangers on and the socialite set "converted."  That fad seemed to disappear with the marriage. Around the same time, in the main street of Sydney just near Town Hall and on the facade of a building was a gigantic volcano with a video in the centre that played ads for Dianetics non stop.  Very 1984-ish. The volcano propaganda hasn't been there for about 15 years but you can still see where the video used to be so I'm reminded of it every time I'm in town. 

So yeah Scientology is not illegal here :-)

Edited March 8, 2018 by KlavdiaVavilova

[Sarah D. Bunting]

omg, the volcano. They're just so cheesy. Thanks for the update/sorry you too are stuck with the Xenubians.

[veronicamers]

Great episode! I love all your guests, but you and Toby have a particularly nice rapport.

I don't know if I have it in me to watch The Family. It sounds so, so sad (shades of Dear Zachary which I also have not ever been able to watch). I feel limited by the bounds of my mental health. 

I will say that I always get The Family confused with The Children of God/The Family International, the cult the Phoenix kids and Rose McGowan were raised in. Also had a sadistic lady at the helm. Just awful. 

[WInterfalls]

Scientology isn't illegal in Australia now, but it was banned in South Australia and West Australia from 1965 -1973. That may be why you are thinking that it's illegal in Australia. 

[helent]

It's so depressing that The Family still exists, even if no children seem to be involved any more, and that Hamilton-Byrne never saw any real punishment (she was found guilty of fraud and that is all, she is still very rich, and still seen as the head of the cult, although the most recent stories I can find are twelve months old and say she has dementia and is in palliative care, so she could be dead now).

This is a good article by the writers of the book the film is based on - not sure how much over-lap there is with the film: https://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2017/family-ties/

Googling just now, I also found that the private hospital run by the cult was about three blocks from where I grew up, and I would have passed it many times, although possibly after the cult involvement ended (the timeline in wikipedia is pretty unclear).

[Primetimer]

Investigation Discovery on a horrifyingly prolific UNSUB, and Mike Dunn on Michelle McNamara's book on the same perpetrator: The Golden State Killer.

View the full article

[MCMLXXVII]

Not a tip exactly, but interesting six degrees of separation between Biggie/‘90s hip-hop and a culty “religion”. Apparently Mack was filming a documentary before his death, will be curious to see it.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/cult-rapper-craig-mack-spent-final-years-article-1.3872397

Edited March 14, 2018 by MCMLXXVII

[swimmyfish]

I started reading McNamara's book over the weekend in anticipation of this discussion, and so far I'm enjoying it (insofar as one can enjoy reading about gruesome crimes.) I also hadn't heard of the Golden State Killer before, which really is surprising considering how prolific he was. McNamara does, I think, an excellent job of laying out the details of the crimes without being ever becoming sensationalist. She also is very good at reminding the reader of key details and similarities between the many, many, many crimes committed by this man, without it ever seeming repetitive to read. I'm only half way through, but so far I would say it's a very solid account of a complex case.

The only negative, and this is more about reaction to the book than the book itself, is that some people seem pretty certain that this book will lead to the case being solved. On the one hand, I think that's a lovely testament to how they felt about the book, but on the other hand, you know, sometimes it just doesn't work that way. I think you guys mention this in the podcast (I've also only had the chance to get about half way through that today too), but with what everything Michelle lays out, it seems highly unlikely that there's just that *one* piece of evidence that needs to be uncovered that will break the whole case wide open. There's a lot of evidence, and this guy, abhorrent as he is/was, also appears to have been very smart. That he has evaded capture this long isn't because the crimes weren't being thoroughly investigated, but because he's been able to escape detection; unless someone in his life reads this account and recognizes him, I don't think he'll ever be caught.

That feels like a real down note to end my post on, but I did enjoy both the book and the podcast! I know this is specifically a tv podcast, but if there good book tie-ins to future topics, I'm always happy to get a recommendation.

[bosawks]

My reaction to the background female voices was that it was so obviously an NBC Movie of the Week that it must be something else since they’re making such a fuss over it, nope, movie of the week, arghhh.

If a profiler is somehow able to drill down a suspect by their shitty taste in tv I reserve the right to delete this post....

[Sarah D. Bunting]

This Stair dude sounds like a treat. 

[KlavdiaVavilova]

Sorry for the long post coming up .....  I read about GSK first in Michelle McNamara's article in Los Angeles magazine which was a couple of years before she died, and I've been tooling around the message boards and websites since.  I respect Morf and Keith but, yeah, those investigation sections were clunky af. The badge, the recording ... that's all pretty old stuff.  When you read the bits from the book I had the same cringey reaction to the writing but didn't notice it/them at all when I was reading it, probably too wrapped up in the topic. It's upsetting to me to think of the To Do list she left for the book.  Oddly enough, probably her biggest breakthrough (a previously unknown probable victim contacted her with usable information, the "green corvette incident" if anyone wants to google it) is not even mentioned in the book, possibly she was leaving it until last to write up, possibly it went nowhere or possibly law enforcement is still working on it and didn't want it included for some reason. Frustrating not to know.

I do think this case is somewhat more suitable for "citizen sleuths" than many just because of the sheer volume of attacks, especially with ~ 50 rapes which left living witnesses meaning there is a lot more bits of info than you have with a serial killer (plus the Visalia Ransacker if you want to go down that rabbit hole). The information vacuum that's present in most cases is not here, there's almost too much.  There is a lot of grunt records work that can be done basically, which even a well-resourced law enforcement is not going to run to ground.  And also: there is DNA which puts a useful "put up or shut up" cap on the dead end theorising. Unlike the Zodiac, say, where you can go round in circles with your pet suspect for decades never being able to be proven right or wrong, in this case ... you got a suspect who has the right shaped thighs and worked in real estate and had a sister called Bonnie, Holes (who is retiring this month BTW) will run him and exclude him (or not- happy days, you're a hero). I'm glad of the raised profile, but hopefully the extra attention won't up the crank quotient so much that LE stops being so open to tips.

It's really amazing to me this case hasn't been so well known up to now.  Not that there's a serial killer olympics or anything but he dwarfs Zodiac and most others in activity.  Great tribute has to go to Jane Carson-Sandler, Debbi Domingo and Michelle Cruz in particular as victims/relative of victims who have really gone out their way to try and raise the profile of the case for years. They are on the message boards, have twitter and youtube accounts, go to that CrimeCon thing, will do any interview asked of them -which can't be easy but they are just indefatigable. Michelle posted that her father died last week, without knowing who killed his daughter Janelle. It's those sort of things that make solving it a little bit more personal than most true crime I "consume."

There is another doco out starting 18th March on HLN and if you thought 4 eps was too much, this one is 5 ... which thrills me as an obsessive but we'll see how well they do filling the time.  Given the size of the case, there's definitely enough material but true crime docos are not exactly known for their snappy use of time.  The trailer looks reasonably decent but we'll see. 

 

 

McNamara and a doco is going to be enough for 95% of people but if you happen to be one of the other 5% I do recommend The Case Files of the Golden State Killer/Ear Area Rapist book written by Kat Winters with Keith Komos (it was the book they keep panning past next to his computer in the show).  It's basically the GSK encyclopaedia, goes through every attack with what is known about each.   It's ten bucks on kindle.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I know Mike was going to try to track down that detective's book -- Crompton? -- but based on MM's description of his dismissiveness of one of the victims, I'm not as keen. If you're watching the HLN let us know how it is (that network is...not so great at having chill with these topics, but you never know).

 

And you make a good point re: this case being better suited than some to citizen sleuthing. I'd just have liked the show to do a less gullible job making it clear that not all internet investigators are created equal. 

[KlavdiaVavilova]

Both Larry Crompton and Richard Shelby wrote books about the case, which for a long, long time were the only major sources of information available so .... grateful, I guess but I would now bump them down into 'real completist' territory and put the Winters book above them. It has all the same information, minus their idiosyncratic blind spots and omissions. Plus a lot more info has been released since they were written.

[KlavdiaVavilova]

Oh and in case I come off TOO into this ... Nancy Grace is covering the case on her podcast thingo and I have no intention of listening.  Everyone has to draw the line somewhere ....

Edited March 17, 2018 by KlavdiaVavilova

[Sarah D. Bunting]

That is the line I would pick, m'self. Hee.

[bosawks]

12 hours ago, KlavdiaVavilova said:

Oh and in case I come off TOO into this ... Nancy Grace is covering the show on her podcast thingo and I have no intention of listening.  Everyone has to draw the line somewhere ....

Nancy Grace on a podcast seems to be defeating the point, I mean, if you can't comment on the hair what's the point....

[txhorns79]

The Golden State Killer seems absolutely terrifying.  That he called some of his victims after the fact to essentially terrorize them all over again is just so horrible.

Sarah, I had considered buying McNamara's book, but was curious about something.  If McNamara hadn't died in the way she did, is it a book you think you would seek out?  I know you mentioned it felt like the book needed more editing.  

Also, for someone like me, who likes true crime, but dips in and out of it, are there any particular podcasts that you like?  Aside from The Blotter Presents, of course!     

[KlavdiaVavilova]

I watched "Wild Wild Country" on Netflix today - you may be all culted-out but might be a good one.  It features the most entertaining absolute sociopath in true crime docos of 2018 at least. 

[Sarah D. Bunting]

I feel like I have to check this out; several people have mentioned how bonkers the story is.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Quote

is it a book you think you would seek out?

I don't think so, and it wasn't her death per se; it's that her death is what made me aware of her work and the blog and alla that -- which is unfortunate, but the fact is I have a to-read list that stacks hip-high. If Mike hadn't texted me that his copy arrived, I may have just chucked mine on the stack all "I'll get to it someday." 

 

Then again, a lot of people in my Twitter timeline were into it, a lot of people in my Goodreads TL had reviewed it favorably...I don't know what my interaction with it would have been had McNamara not passed away, honestly. 

And qua the crimes and the way that timeline is laid out, the book is edited and built quite impressively under the circs. It's strictly some overwriting that needed to go, that I felt didn't show the author well. For what the project is really trying to do, the edit/compilers made her proud, I'm thinking. It's just a few phrasings and too-long sections that I was like, you don't need this, lady.

[Lela]

As an Oregonian, who was pretty young when this happened, I can say this is pretty crazy, even for us. (It's not like we're Florida) It gets crazier when you find out the ranch is now a Christian youth summer camp.

[FozzyBear]

On 3/18/2018 at 4:41 AM, KlavdiaVavilova said:

I watched "Wild Wild Country" on Netflix today - you may be all culted-out but might be a good one.  It features the most entertaining absolute sociopath in true crime docos of 2018 at least. 

I watched the first 2 espisodes last night and I plan to come back for more tonight. It is one of the craziest things I have ever seen and I haven’t even gotten to the crimes yet. How did I not know this story?

[Primetimer]

J. Paul Getty III and Patty Hearst were kidnapped within a year of each other. Sarah D. Bunting kidnapped Toby Ball again to discuss FX's event series on the former, and the Smithsonian Channel's take on the latter.

View the full article

[Stowaway]

Surely any thumbnail sketch of Patty Hearst's post-SLA life needs to include mention of the era when she was a John Waters muse.

[veronicamers]

Enjoyed this ep a lot! I honestly know next to nothing about the Getty kidnapping case so it was interesting to learn more.

I second Toby's recommendation of The Skies Belong to Us. It is a fascinating book. One of my true crime niche interests is 70s-era radicals and their crimes, including the SLA. I am a fan of Toobin's writing, but I will say that Patty Hearst's push back on his book (and the planned but pulled tv series) has given me a bit of pause: 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/01/12/fox-drops-patty-hearst-biopic-after-she-blasts-the-jeffrey-toobin-book-it-was-based-on/?utm_term=.e1091e827587

In reading about the saga and digesting the speculation about her capability, I don't think I fully took into account how much "victim shaming" I might have been doing. I don't know, it's a complicated nexus there. I'd be curious to listen to the podcast Toby mentioned to hear if Toobin talks about any of this. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by veronicamers

[Sarah D. Bunting]

My feeling at this point is, and this is a vast oversimplification, that she was complicit, SORT of, but in the way that we all might say we were "complicit" in the dangerous dumb drama bullshit we did at that age. For most of us, it was not writ nearly this large or serious, but when you're younger, and you maybe haven't been out in the world so much and -- as Toby pointed out -- exposed to the struggles of those outside the cone of privilege, you can get caught up...or taken over?  

 

And she can have gotten into a situation "on purpose" that got out of control and also be a victim, which she was, in many ways. It can be both. The idea that she was a young idealist whose explorations of what-have-you blew up on her horribly is not one you really hear in these narratives, because it's not as binary and satisfying, but I think it's the most credible, and I have compassion for it.

[Stowaway]

I did a research paper on the kidnapping in college, but most of my memory of the case have fallen out of my brain. But there were still a few SLA-adjacent figures around Berkeley at the time who were willing to say a few vague things about it to an annoying undergraduate. I got the sense that they were offended (on a personal level) by the idea that Hearst had been coerced or brainwashed. I like Sarah's "middle path" take on the case, because I'm sure it was all very complicated, and confusing, because everything is when you're that age.

[txhorns79]

Quote

And she can have gotten into a situation "on purpose" that got out of control and also be a victim, which she was, in many ways. It can be both. The idea that she was a young idealist whose explorations of what-have-you blew up on her horribly is not one you really hear in these narratives, because it's not as binary and satisfying, but I think it's the most credible, and I have compassion for it.

I go with the victim who eventually became complicit with her captors theory.  I was very influenced by Toobin's book, and I am with him in that there are too many times where she can walk away, and the violence that she's involved in continues even when she's essentially on her own. 

I third the recommendation for The Skies Belong to Us.  I really enjoyed that book. 

[KlavdiaVavilova]

Just dropping in to say I've seen the first 2 eps of the HLN series on GSK and its definitely the stronger of the two in my opinion, there isn't the unnecessary padding of the citizens sleuths and it lays out the info in a very coherent way. So if anyone wanted more on this case it is worth checking out and not the slightest whiff of Nancy Grace-ness despite the network.

As another aside sine this ep also discussed a book, I just finished "The Cadaver King and the Country Dentist" by Radley Balko and Tucker Carrington. OMFG!  I can never watch an episode of Forensic Files the same way again. Parts of it were just jawdropping, so that's recommended if you like your true crime to make you absolutely infuriated about the world.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

The Tip Line thread is always a good place to mention books in the genre that might have tie-ins to a TV property. You know your host loves a Forensic Files...

[KlavdiaVavilova]

I've tipped a few things lately, don't want to look greedy.  It actually has no connection whatsoever to Forensic Files except to undermine your faith in the entire forensic field and reflect on all the episodes you innocently watched where the "science" has turned out to be bunk sending innocent men to gaol ...

[Primetimer]

Eve B. and Sarah D. on an OK Oxygen show starring Ice-T, plus three actors turned killers in the reboot of M&S.

View the full article

[MCMLXXVII]

Surprised you guys haven’t seen “A Bronx Tale”, it’s a minor classic of the NY mob movie genre.

[Lea]

To me, "buddies" is coded to mean white, childish, fratty-type dudes. I didn't read it as a dad thing as much as I did a jab at him and his friends. I'm also only going from the clip and y'all's discussion, not the primary source.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Oh, I've seen ABT, though it's been a while. I don't recall seeing quiiiiite what the big whoop was, thought De Niro was coasting and Brancato outright mediocre.

[KlavdiaVavilova]

How about ... "Marcia Clark Investigates the First 48."   I believe there is a companion podcast.

[helent]

Wasn't Johnny Lewis also a scientologist, and therefore not able to get any help for his many problems (thanks to the whole 'psychiatry is evil' crap they have)? Seems like this was a far too complicated story to fit into a small section of a show.

Also I remember when it happened reading a lot about his landlady - she was almost a local landmark, she rented her place to lots of struggling actors and helped them get their start. So more interesting details missing.

Edited April 7, 2018 by helent

[bosawks]

Anyone remember that American Experience about the Donner Party.

Maybe not murder per se but that Hastings Cutoff issue is certainly an arguable point.

And the Amy Madigan narrated closing haunts my dreams.

Edited April 7, 2018 by bosawks

[starri]

I've been slowly catching up on my podcast backlog while doing a bunch of fairly menial work, but I wanted to jump in and give a virtual fist pump for this episode for @Sarah D. Bunting saying basically exactly what I ended up feeling about Jodi Arias.

Lemme be completely clear:  Jodi is totally culpable for what she did and is exactly where she belongs.  But after I ready Juan Martinez's book about the trial, and reflected on the interviews Travis' friends and family had given before and during the trial, I ended up kind of disgusted by how everything played out.  The insistence that Travis was unable to resist the gravitational force of Jodi's vagina made me want to throw things.  Professional ethics prevent me from speculating about her specific pathology, but the woman is mentally ill.  Again, completely cognizant of the different of right and wrong, completely in control of her own actions, completely a cold-blooded murderer.  Travis DID NOT deserve what happened to him, but he was hardly this innocent lamb corrupted by the dirty, dirty slut.

It also changed my opinion about her sentencing.  My (hypocritical) anti-capital punishment soul thought during her sentencing that I wouldn't have shed tears if she'd gotten the death penalty.  But now, while I still don't know that the harsher sentence would have been a great injustice, I'm more glad that she didn't, just because there WERE mitigating factors.

I don't know how I feel about how I feel.  I can't help thinking this is reading like I'm defending her, but I just can't shake the feeling that everyone thought that her liking sex--liking kinky sex--was as heinous a crime as the murder of Travis, and that makes me angry.

Also, Nancy Grace can go to Hell.

[starri]

I spend the entire podcast thinking about John Mulaney's impression of Ice T during one of his standup specials.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

We may get to Marcia; Dan Patrick Brady and I were strangely compelled by it despite the aggressive amounts of filler.

 

And yes, I do remember that AE; @bosawks, do you know offhand if it's available on the PBS app?

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Well said, @starri. Especially that last part (hee).

[KlavdiaVavilova]

I recommend the Marcia podcast for the additional content and also her reading the ads : "Husbands and boyfriends come and go ... but a Casper mattress is forever!"