Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[AwesomO4000]

I'm still not seeing it myself, but it could be I'm just missing something  (I can be dense about some things sometimes). I'm not trying to imply it makes Sam a victim. I'm trying to say that maybe Sam didsn't want to make Dean feel badly about his decision, not trying to avoid feeling badly himself  (because Sam already felt badly that day anyway), To me, Sam maybe didn't want to hurt Dean's feelings and/or was trying to validate Dean's decision. But this for me would've been short term... not a long standing decision Sam perpetrated over the years. Later, I tend to more agree with Ditty... that the amulet ended up at the bottom of whatever was Sam's memory box at the time with so much water under the bridge after that it seemed less important in retrospect until it found a home in Sam's memory box and just became a familiar something Sam kept that might someday prove useful. Then God questions and out it came.

That works for me.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

So I can entirely see Sam thinking that the amulet was important at the time, saving it because it had sentimental meaning to him and/or because of its mystical value, but then in the grand scheme of things later and with  other bonding moments to come, well, then it didn't seem quite as significant as it was in that moment, but still being something Sam wanted to hold on to. That makes total sense to me, but that doesn't mean it has to for others.

I'm not saying viewers shouldn't have their own opinions on this.  I'm trying to reconcile narratively and logistically how that could work and thus far I'm not finding any good way to do it.

I can understand Sam making a snap decision and taking it but then never telling Dean about it, just doesn't fit for me.  I understand that Sam went to Hell and was tortured and to me,  if he kept the amulet for Dean when he got out of Hell and he put the amulet somewhere for safe keeping before going to Hell himself, wouldn't he have wanted Dean to know that it was there if he had hope it would make things better between them? Or give Dean some kind of comfort during his grieving?  After Sam was ensouled again, it might have been used for him to ground himself when he was hallucinating Lucifer. The problem for me is that none of that happened.  All of that lack of seeing the amulet just leaves me of the mind Sam really didn't keep it at all.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for why Sam wasn't shown with it, I think part of that is except for his hallucinations, I don't remember the writers really showing Sam all that much in his alone time. We sometimes see Dean in his room listening to music or out working on the car, but for some reason, we rarely see Sam on his "down time" except sometimes jogging or exercising. Season 11 was one of the few times I really remember the writers actually writing scenes going into that. And I'm not sure why that is, since I, for one, would enjoy seeing more of that - for both brothers - but it is what it is.

Just curious what you make of Sam not using the amulet to try and help Dean in s10 if he had it in the memory box the whole time? Not show it to Dean but try and use it to help him with a cure for the Mark. 

[ILoveReading]

15 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm still not seeing it myself, but it could be I'm just missing something  (I can be dense about some things sometimes). I'm not trying to imply it makes Sam a victim. I'm trying to say that maybe Sam didsn't want to make Dean feel badly about his decision, not trying to avoid feeling badly himself  (because Sam already felt badly that day anyway), To me, Sam maybe didn't want to hurt Dean's feelings and/or was trying to validate Dean's decision. But this for me would've been short term... not a long standing decision Sam perpetrated over the years. Later, I tend to more agree with Ditty... that the amulet ended up at the bottom of whatever was Sam's memory box at the time with so much water under the bridge after that it seemed less important in retrospect until it found a home in Sam's memory box and just became a familiar something Sam kept that might someday prove useful. Then God questions and out it came.

That works for me.

I guess for me, I must be missing something too because I can't see why Sam would keep it a secret.  Dean was so down on everything and everyone at this point, I can see Dean's attitude being "What ever floats your boat Sam, do whatever you want.  I don't care." rather than being upset.  It's not like Sam ever listened to Dean in the past, why would this be any more upsetting?

Plus, I can't see Souless Sam holding on to it either.  He wasn't supposed to have any emotional connection to anything.  If some girl thought it was cool and asked for it, then I could see Sam giving it to her. 

Also 5.22 Sam was under the believe that he was never going to see his brother again.  That isn't the time for secrecy or hard feelings.

If Dean hung the fake one on the mirror instead of just tossing it in the trash it obviously still have some meaning for him.  What better time for Sam to mention he had the real one?  I can't buy that he would have forgotten about it.

For me there is just to many plot holes to believe that Sam had it all this time.

[catrox14]

49 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

If Sam did take the amulet, I don't think he took it thinking Dean might want it again some day. I actually think he took it thinking that Dean wouldn't want it again some day, which is why I think he would keep it to himself

If Sam took because he didn't think Dean wanted it ever again, that seems kind of spiteful. Or am I just not understanding what you mean?

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

If Sam took because he didn't think Dean wanted it ever again, that seems kind of spiteful. Or am I just not understanding what you mean?

If Sam didn't give it back, I don't think he took it.  However, to answer your question, if he did take it, thinking Dean didn't want it, but for whatever reason Sam did, I fail to see how that would be spiteful, unless he kept waving it in his face.  Which obviously he didn't.  If Sam had it, but Dean didn't know he had it, it literally wouldn't affect Deans life at all.  I don't think a person can be secretly spited.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Just curious what you make of Sam not using the amulet to try and help Dean in s10 if he had it in the memory box the whole time? Not show it to Dean but try and use it to help him with a cure for the Mark. 

I thought about this one and gave my thoughts somewhere, but I don't remember if it's this thread or the other one (The writers' thread).

Basically I think it makes sense - especially in that encounter in the finale - that Sam would use pictures of Mom, because Sam knows that Dean generally has a positive emotional response when it comes to Mary. He, himself, he maybe wasn't so sure about, and I think Sam had good reason to be concerned. Mark of Cain Dean had recently told him that he should've been the one dead instead of Charlie, and Sam had gone behind Dean's back to find a cure for Dean which in Dean's mind lead to Charlie's Death. So I could see Sam thinking that something that recalls their bond and a time that Dean trashed it when he felt betrayed by Sam might not be the best way to get through to Dean at that juncture if Dean also felt betrayed by Sam now, and might even be a bad idea. But pictures of Mom... that Sam took from Dean's room if I remember correctly? That's almost so manipulative as to almost be a low blow in terms of something that Dean couldn't resist being affected by. I was actually thinking "well played, Sam, well played." And even then, it appeared to me that Sam still thought Dean might go through with killing him, so I can see why Sam was in a mindset to think bringing along the amulet might not really have the effect he might want when it comes to Dean. In my opinion, pictures of Mom was a better choice.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

If Sam took because he didn't think Dean wanted it ever again, that seems kind of spiteful. Or am I just not understanding what you mean?

I think I'm looking at the way @Katy M is looking at it, in that Sam not telling Dean is actually avoiding any spiteful appearance. I am saying Sam might have taken it because he (Sam) might have wanted it for whatever reason - and for me, there would be multiple reasons Sam might have wanted it. Yes, theoretically the usual response when someone throws a gift you gave them away right in front of your face, usually you would think "Screw him!" but we're talking pre-season 8 Sam here - they guy who quickly forgave Castiel after Castiel literally broke his head - almost killing him - while using him (Sam) as a diversionary tactic... we're not talking earth logic here. And I look at Sam's actions in the early seasons post John's death through that lens. Sam's guilt and tendency to forgive was strong in that episode (Dark Side...). I could see it in the way that Sam tried to lessen the blow on Dean when Sam recognized that the next memory was going to be the night he left for college, and he knew that would hurt Dean. Sam didn't get defensive when he said "I guess I don't look at family the same way you do." He didn't say "come on Dean, give me a break here." Instead he tried to let Dean know that it was still he and Dean against the world. There was no anger in Sam in the conversation, so I didn't see him being angry when Dean dumped the amulet... only sad and hurt and maybe hoping things would get better. But the amulet meant something - in my opinion - to Sam too... because of "A Very Supernatural Christmas." And Sam may not have given up entirely on God (as I said, Sam is also a hopeful creature), and maybe thought God might change his mind at some point, so with those things in mind, that's why I think Sam would save it. Maybe there was a small part of him that did hope that Dean might want it back, but I think he would've saved it regardless as a memento from his and Dean's past - especially since there weren't a lot of those floating around, so permanently losing one more on top of everything else that happened that day would be yet another blow. Besides, Sam could always dump it again later, but he only had then to decide if he wanted that memento gone for good or if he wanted to save it. I could see the practical side of Sam saving it and rationalizing it that way. "What if Dean does change his mind?" I know I said that I thought Sam saved it thinking Dean didn't want it or might never want it, but I could see a small part of Sam hoping that maybe Dean might, and then thinking, "but it would be gone if I don't save it now," also.

I think the only constant is that I just couldn't imagine Sam leaving it there to just become trash if he could save it.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Plus, I can't see Souless Sam holding on to it either.  He wasn't supposed to have any emotional connection to anything. 

I pictured it packed in a box, stored at Bobby's until Sam expected Dean might find it one day, or in this case until Resouled Sam came to get his stuff, back, maybe while they recovered post season 6 finale at Bobby's. That would have been a convenient time to do get his stuff, especially since they were there for a while.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If Dean hung the fake one on the mirror instead of just tossing it in the trash it obviously still have some meaning for him. 

I'm not sure how much though, since it didn't end up in Dean's room, but instead in Sam's memory box.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

If Sam didn't give it back, I don't think he took it.  However, to answer your question, if he did take it, thinking Dean didn't want it, but for whatever reason Sam did, I fail to see how that would be spiteful, unless he kept waving it in his face.  Which obviously he didn't.  If Sam had it, but Dean didn't know he had it, it literally wouldn't affect Deans life at all.  I don't think a person can be secretly spited.

Maybe spiteful wasn't quite the right word, maybe more like being petty? That said,  I do think a person can be secretly spiteful or petty.  Like you do something that gives you satisfaction knowing that it might really bug the other person even if they don't know you did it.

I'm not saying that was Sam's motivation just trying to understand @AwesomO4000 opinion. :)

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Basically I think it makes sense - especially in that encounter in the finale - that Sam would use pictures of Mom, because Sam knows that Dean generally has a positive emotional response when it comes to Mary. He, himself, he maybe wasn't so sure about, and I think Sam had good reason to be concerned. Mark of Cain Dean had recently told him that he should've been the one dead instead of Charlie, and Sam had gone behind Dean's back to find a cure for Dean which in Dean's mind lead to Charlie's Death. So I could see Sam thinking that something that recalls their bond and a time that Dean trashed it when he felt betrayed by Sam might not be the best way to get through to Dean at that juncture if Dean also felt betrayed by Sam now, and might even be a bad idea. But pictures of Mom... that Sam took from Dean's room if I remember correctly? That's almost so manipulative as to almost be a low blow in terms of something that Dean couldn't resist being affected by. I was actually thinking "well played, Sam, well played." And even then, it appeared to me that Sam still thought Dean might go through with killing him, so I can see why Sam was in a mindset to think bringing along the amulet might not really have the effect he might want when it comes to Dean. In my opinion, pictures of Mom was a better choice.

While I am of the opinion that it wouldn't have made sense for Sam to have kept the amulet after it was tossed I agree with this viewpoint. Considering Dean's emotional state when he threw it away I feel that bringing it out while he was completely under the thrall of the MOC would more than likely have upset him rather than evoke fond memories of his relationship with Sam.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Basically I think it makes sense - especially in that encounter in the finale - that Sam would use pictures of Mom, because Sam knows that Dean generally has a positive emotional response when it comes to Mary. He, himself, he maybe wasn't so sure about, and I think Sam had good reason to be concerned. Mark of Cain Dean had recently told him that he should've been the one dead instead of Charlie, and Sam had gone behind Dean's back to find a cure for Dean which in Dean's mind lead to Charlie's Death. So I could see Sam thinking that something that recalls their bond and a time that Dean trashed it when he felt betrayed by Sam might not be the best way to get through to Dean at that juncture if Dean also felt betrayed by Sam now, and might even be a bad idea. But pictures of Mom... that Sam took from Dean's room if I remember correctly? That's almost so manipulative as to almost be a low blow in terms of something that Dean couldn't resist being affected by. I was actually thinking "well played, Sam, well played." And even then, it appeared to me that Sam still thought Dean might go through with killing him, so I can see why Sam was in a mindset to think bringing along the amulet might not really have the effect he might want when it comes to Dean. In my opinion, pictures of Mom was a better choice

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my question. I wasn't meaning the Brother's Keeper and using it to get through to Dean like he did the pictures.  I meant more that if Sam had saved the amulet because he still had hope that God might still be attached to it in some way, or maybe it had some other practical use in lore or magic or what have you, why didn't Sam try to use it to help cure Dean of the Mark, maybe even just pray over it for God's help , long before it ever got to Brother's Keeper?

[AwesomO4000]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my question. I wasn't meaning the Brother's Keeper and using it to get through to Dean like he did the pictures.  I meant more that if Sam had saved the amulet because he still had hope that God might still be attached to it in some way, or maybe it had some other practical use in lore or magic or what have you, why didn't Sam try to use it to help cure Dean of the Mark, maybe even just pray over it for God's help , long before it ever got to Brother's Keeper?

Ah, got it. Since Castiel said what the amulet did and seemed fairly sure about it's function, I could see Sam believing him that that's all it did. And I think - if I remember correctly - that Sam started fairly early in season 10 trying to find a way to save newly de-demoned Dean when he thought he was in trouble and making some progress. I can't speak for season 9, and I'm not even going to go there. Wait, yes I am... My unpopular opinion on that is that second half of season 9's - along with early season 8's - characterization of Sam was way off, and very little of what Sam did made much sense. Sam was basically background drama in season 9B for everyone else's arcs and so wasn't given anything practical or intelligent to do. Sam didn't even seem to be that concerned about the mark of Cain that much until the end of the season, so I'm not surprised he wasn't shown doing much of anything. Sam's basic role in the second half of season 9 seemed to be to bitch and sulk and make Dean feel badly until it was time for Sam to learn his lesson and say "I lied."

Have I mentioned lately that I hate the second half of season 9? ; )

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ah, got it. Since Castiel said what the amulet did and seemed fairly sure about it's function, I could see Sam believing him that that's all it did.

Okay.. I'm confused then. I thought you had said previously that one of the reasons you could believe that Sam would have saved the amulet was the hope that it might still have some kind of practical magical function. Are you saying that it was just that God tracking function that Sam was hoping for vs any other function?

It seems to me since Sam knew the Mark of Cain was a curse, and if he thought there was hope that amulet still had a God function, that he would have at least tried to use the amulet, even if just for a prayer thing. Especially since he was doing all kinds of things to save Dean in s10, why not try the amulet too, if he had it? That's what I'm asking about.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, Katy M said:

WEll, he obviously put it in Sam's pocket, regardless of where it was before, because he showed it to MEtatron while they were in Heaven (?) before it appeared in Sam's pocket. Which is why I don't really see why people think Sam had it all along in the first place.

Well, I don't think Chuck had the real amulet. He's God, so I think he created an illusion to illustrate his point to Marvatron that he was God, but that wasn't the real amulet, IMO., 

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I guess for me, I must be missing something too because I can't see why Sam would keep it a secret. 

Well, as I've said, I think Sam just forgot about it--with the whole apocalypse being nigh and ending up trapped in a cage with the Devil and then soulless and such, seems like he might have had a few other things on his mind--and by the time he was reminded of it, it didn't matter anymore so why make a point of bringing it up again?

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Are you saying that it was just that God tracking function that Sam was hoping for vs any other function?

Yes, tied in with his faith in God.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It seems to me since Sam knew the Mark of Cain was a curse, and if he thought there was hope that amulet still had a God function, that he would have at least tried to use the amulet, even if just for a prayer thing. Especially since he was doing all kinds of things to save Dean in s10, why not try the amulet too, if he had it? That's what I'm asking about.

Considering how badly I thought season 9B went for Sam, I'm just happy that Sam was actually doing something, so I didn't tend to - as I think Dean put it (?) - put that gift horse under the microscope. ; ) I mean of course you are correct, but all considering, it could have been much worse... of course then there was the Darkness, but well I predicted / expected something like that, so...

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Yes, tied in with his faith in God.

Considering how badly I thought season 9B went for Sam, I'm just happy that Sam was actually doing something, so I didn't tend to - as I think Dean put it (?) - put that gift horse under the microscope. ; ) I mean of course you are correct, but all considering, it could have been much worse... of course then there was the Darkness, but well I predicted / expected something like that, so...

So, why do you imagine that Sam didn't try the amulet, presuming he did have it?

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So, why do you imagine that Sam didn't try the amulet, presuming he did have it?

Without using the obvious because some of the writers didn't think of it, I would guess mostly because Sam made the mistake of listening to Rowena. Sam seemed to have a weak spot / flaw in terms of listening to / trusting her, and she eventually lead Sam down the path that he went on. I haven't seen season 10 enough to remember all of the details, but didn't Sam also listen to Crowley, too? When Sam gets desperate, he sometimes tends to listen to whoever will give him hope and so he sometimes tends to get lead astray.

If I remember correctly, it had been a while since Sam had discussed his current stance on God - Maybe season 5? - so I don't know if Sam still prayed as of season 10, but if he did, I would guess that he probably did in terms of Dean, but that was likely the extent of the looking for divine help I'm guessing. And likely a good idea. Unless he was going to ask Castiel exactly what the amulet did - and even that source might be iify - just trying random stuff with Godly artifacts sounds like it could go horribly wrong, and with Sam's penchant for bad luck, it's probably a good idea he didn't try something he might regret... oh wait never mind. *cue The Darkness* ; )

[ILoveReading]

8 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, as I've said, I think Sam just forgot about it--with the whole apocalypse being nigh and ending up trapped in a cage with the Devil and then soulless and such, seems like he might have had a few other things on his mind--and by the time he was reminded of it, it didn't matter anymore so why make a point of bringing it up again?

If he forgot about it in such a short time, than again I question exactly how much it meant to him in the first place.  Since it was supposed to be this big meaningful symbol between the brothers, there really is no valid show reason why Sam wouldn't mention it when he thought he was never going to see Dean again.  Not that much time passed between 5.16 and 5.22. 

Sam believed Dean threw it away because he lost he felt Dean lost faith in him.  Why would Sam want a reminder of that?  Looking

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure how much though, since it didn't end up in Dean's room, but instead in Sam's memory box.

Why would Sam need the fake one if he had the real one?  Again, if he forgot he had the real one shouldn't the fake one have triggered it, again making me question why he needed the fake one?  Shouldn't we have gotten a glimpse of the real one in Sam's box? 

To much time and to many important things have happened where it would have made sense to bring up the amulet if Sam had it all along.   The most glaring being the use of the army man rather then the amulet.  That seems to me that the writers didn't really think Sam had it either. 

So we can agree to disagree on this issue

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If he forgot about it in such a short time, than again I question exactly how much it meant to him in the first place.  Since it was supposed to be this big meaningful symbol between the brothers, there really is no valid show reason why Sam wouldn't mention it when he thought he was never going to see Dean again.  Not that much time passed between 5.16 and 5.22. 

Sam believed Dean threw it away because he lost he felt Dean lost faith in him.  Why would Sam want a reminder of that?

As I said, I think everyone is ascribing too much meaning to, not only the amulet, but the act of Sam possibly taking it out of the trash. I don't think he retrieved it because it was meaningful to Sam, but that Sam thought it was something that had meaning to Dean and someday, when things weren't so bleak, Dean might want it back. But then, stuff happened and he forgot he had it. I really don't think of it as some big conspiracy on Sam's part, but just an impulse on his way out the door that he shouldn't leave it in the trash.

To me, the amulet was never a symbol of Sam and Dean's bond, but was a symbol of faith--both literally and figuratively--in who they were. IMO, Dean threw it away, not only because he had lost faith in Sam, but he'd lost faith in everything. He hadn't believed in Sam for months; slowly lost faith in himself over the course of the season; and now had lost what little faith he had in them together. God was his last hope and that was now dashed too. I think the moment Dean throws it away is Dean admitting he didn't believe; not only in Sam, but in anything. I think it's the moment Dean decides to say yes to Michael, it just takes him a bit longer to act on that decision.

[Pondlass1]

I never bothered much about the amulet.  I just wish Dean had kept that silver ring.  But once they put screw caps on beer it had to go too, I guess.  Wish the brothers wore bead bracelets like the Js.  I'm actually not much of a fan of men in necklaces.

[catrox14]

If this were a show like The Leftovers where they are intentionally writing for us to make up our minds about what it all really means or to take from it what we want then I would be more okay with SPN not explaining particular things more clearly. But SPN is not a purposefully ambiguous show,

Even LOST,  wasn't that ambiguous. NO, everyone was not dead the whole time and they didn't answer EVERY question but they answered the important ones IMO. That may have been unsatisfying to some LOST viewers but it was not ambiguous and their journeys were not ambiguous. 'What happened, happened".  The network confused fans by showing the plane on the island at the closing credits of the finale. The writers didn't put that in there. Now conversely, The Leftovers was always an ambiguous journey and it ended that way.

SPN is not that kind of show not at it's heart at least not for many years. Carver may have been more on the ambiguity via parallel and mirroring storytelling, but IMO in general, SPN has answered the mysteries with varying degrees of success. They did end every mytharc with a clear ending, and whether one likes that ending or not is a matter of taste. The show has to have POV on the things it does, so then for me, what is the show telling us about the amulet?

Like Chuck being God was always a question that the writers never answered directly anyway for many years after SS. But then in s11, it's canon that Chuck is God, and apparently was always God, whether I like it or not. I can reject it in my interpretation but it's canon, confirmed by the writers.

In a highly unpopular opinion around these parts, I think Romantic (not sexual) Destiel is IMO canon via subtext. That's how I read it. I  think Dean and Cas are in love romantically with each other but not sexually involved. I also, don't claim it's canon via text and I know it never will be. So I don't expect it. That said, if the show came back later and said, "Yes, we were writing romantic Destiel all along", I would be like, "Yup, I knew it". If the writers don't confirm what I think is in the subtext about Destiel, then it's not canon. I'll enjoy my reading but that is a totally different thing than Sam fishing the amulet out of the bin and hiding it from Dean and by extension from the audience for 6 seasons.

Robbie said, SPN is a procedural" and there are points we hit with the over arching mytharcs' . And it It has become formulaic to an extent. So, to me,  since the show has generally answered the questions it creates, it's not purposefully ambiguous unless they just don't want to answer questions canonically for reasons, or it's lazy fanservice writing that drops balls and they don't care because PLOT PLOT PLOT. 

The problem for me, is that regardless of what any of us think happened or whether or not we are assigning too much to the amulet, the show itself assigned a lot of meaning to the amulet when Robbie wrote it's return and that return was in Sam's pocket. That's why there is so much speculation and interpretation as to how that came about. Even here some think Chuck had it and put it in his pocket, others think Chuck never had it. And now we have Robbie publicly saying , "Yes, I think Sam did have it all along".

I don't see this being something purposefully ambiguous but just some lazy fanservice writing, which didn't need to be there at all,  because it wasn't even the amulet that convinced Dean that Chuck was God. It took him bringing back Kevin and sending him to Heaven for him to believe it.  So other than fanservice, why bring it back?

Edited September 7, 2017 by catrox14
accidentally posted before my thoughts were finished.

[Katy M]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

. That's why there is so much speculation and interpretation as to how that came about. Even here some think Chuck had it and put it in his pocket, others think Chuck never had it.  And now we have Robbie publicly saying , "Yes, I think Sam did have it all along" .  So, then what is the show telling us about the amulet?

How could Chuck never have had it ?

From the Transcript

METATRON: (Shrugs in agreement. Takes his whiskey and walks towards CHUCK.) Well... it's an Oscar-worthy performance. But... how did nobody know? I mean, wh-what about that amulet thingy? Y-You told me about it, some... silly charm that burned brightly in the presence of you?

CHUCK: You mean this? (CHUCK takes out DEAN'S AMULET.)

METATRON: (Points at the amulet) Yes! Dean had it! And your fav— Castiel. They were around you. How did it never—

CHUCK: I turned it off. See?

(CHUCK moves his finger up and the amulet shines brightly. METATRON shields his eyes from the amulet's bright light.)

♫ When I'm not home.♫

CHUCK: I should really put this away. (CHUCK puts the amulet in his pocket. CHUCK chuckles.) You'll never guess where this thing has been this entire time.

 

There is no if, and, or, but that Chuck had the amulet.  Now, I suppose it's possible that he stole it from sAm, just to give it back after that demonstration, but to what purpose? Either way, he had it, and he put it in Sam's pocket. Even if Sam had it, I doubt he would carry it around in his pocket all the time.  He'd lose it.  There was nothing said in show, other than, "You'll never guess where this thing has been" to indicate that Sam had it. And, even that indicates absolutely zero.  Maybe a maid took it out of the wastebasket and it had some interesting travel story from that.  Or maybe it was in a landfill.  Or maybe Crowley, King of the Crossroads, swung by and picked it up. We know he likes to do that.

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, Katy M said:

There is no if, and, or, but that Chuck had the amulet.  Now, I suppose it's possible that he stole it from sAm, just to give it back after that demonstration, but to what purpose? Either way, he had it, and he put it in Sam's pocket. Even if Sam had it, I doubt he would carry it around in his pocket all the time.  He'd lose it.  There was nothing said in show, other than, "You'll never guess where this thing has been" to indicate that Sam had it. And, even that indicates absolutely zero.  Maybe a maid took it out of the wastebasket and it had some interesting travel story from that.  Or maybe it was in a landfill.  Or maybe Crowley, King of the Crossroads, swung by and picked it up. We know he likes to do that.

@DittyDotDot and @AwesomO4000 have made cases for why Sam could have had it.  Whether or not I concur with their findings wasn't the point of my post, which I know was a bit meandering, and I made some edits. 

The point of my post was that writing of SPN is not typically purposefully ambiguous so when things are ambiguous on screen, especially things that don't seem supported by past canon events, or seem on screen to be in direct opposition to what the writers say they were doing, leads to much headcanon and varied interpretations amongst the viewers. I don't think those varied interpretations are over reactions or making a big deal out of nothing.

In the case of the amulet, Robbie stated that he had in mind that Sam had it all along, so that comports with what some fans immediately thought was the case when the amulet glowed in Sam's pocket, not just here but out in SM land. From the POV of fans that don't see how Sam could have had it, then Chuck showing it to Marvatron and it being in Sam's pocket, confirms their POV that Chuck put it in Sam's pocket, which comports with all the other reasons given by those that think he didn't have it and in those cases, the writer's words and opinions are irrelevant to some of those viewers. And some viewers don't factor any comments from TPTB no matter what.  Then you have folks like me, who are interested in both text and subtext but I accept that subtext is not something most writers and showrunners are going to confirm or deny ( and I don't just mean Destiel things either). I mean a lot of subtext is in the show about a lot of things, stuff between the boys about their relationship and their relationship to Mary and John, etc, etc. All of that leads to why rarely there consensus on what this show is or isn't trying to say.  I think in the case of the amulet, it's saying that Sam had it, regardless of me finding that pretty unlikely. 

Honestly, I can't decide if SPN has become one big troll work or they've falling into writing for nostalgia and fanservice. 

34 minutes ago, Katy M said:

CHUCK: I should really put this away. (CHUCK puts the amulet in his pocket. CHUCK chuckles.) You'll never guess where this thing has been this entire time.

As to this line, a lot of viewers after seeing it glowing in Sam's pocket, thought Chuck meant it was with Sam all along. That he had taken it from Sam and returned it to Sam's pocket. So I don't think it's as cut and dried that Chuck had it. It makes sense for me that he did but I can see why there is question.

Edited September 7, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The point of my post was that writing of SPN is not typically purposefully ambiguous so when things are ambiguous on screen, especially things that don't seem supported by past canon events, or seem on screen to be in direct opposition to what the writers say they were doing, leads to much headcanon and varied interpretations amongst the viewers. I don't think those varied interpretations are over reactions or making a big deal out of nothing.

IMO, what was shown on screen was not ambiguous. Chuck had it.  We don't know where he got it from.  No.  But, there was absolutelyno reason to think it came from Sam's pocket.  Or, really anywhere out of Sam's belongings  If they were writing that with that in mind, then they msut have left out a scene or two, because they did absolutely nothing to convey that.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Katy M
wrong name.

[catrox14]

35 minutes ago, Katy M said:

IMO, what was shown on screen was not ambiguous.  Metatron had it.  We don't know where he got it from.  No.  But, there was absolutelyno reason to think it came from Sam's pocket.  Or, really anywhere out of Sam's belongings  If they were writing that with that in mind, then they msut have left out a scene or two, because they did absolutely nothing to convey that.

From the transcript you provided. 
 

Quote

 

METATRON: (Shrugs in agreement. Takes his whiskey and walks towards CHUCK.) Well... it's an Oscar-worthy performance. But... how did nobody know? I mean, wh-what about that amulet thingy? Y-You told me about it, some... silly charm that burned brightly in the presence of you?

CHUCK: You mean this? (CHUCK takes out DEAN'S AMULET.)

METATRON: (Points at the amulet) Yes! Dean had it! And your fav— Castiel. They were around you. How did it never—

CHUCK: I turned it off. See?

(CHUCK moves his finger up and the amulet shines brightly. METATRON shields his eyes from the amulet's bright light.)

♫ When I'm not home.♫

CHUCK: I should really put this away. (CHUCK puts the amulet in his pocket. CHUCK chuckles.) You'll never guess where this thing has been this entire time.

 

IMO that transcript is wrong about where Chuck put the amulet after he showed it to Metatron.

But the video here, shows that Chuck had the amulet or produced it, not Metatron who only knew about the lore of it. Then Chuck produced the one shown here, showed him he could turn it on and off.  I don't think the video makes it clear that Chuck put the amulet in his pocket. I don't see that in the clip. 

IMO his comment of "You'll never guess where this thing has been this entire time" and then, it's shown in Sam's pocket at the end of the episode, is why some fans think Chuck was saying Sam had it all along. I think Chuck was making the joke that he, himself had it all along but I totally see why others disagree. 

Here is the scene where he shows Metatron the amulet.

Edited September 7, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

From the transcript you provided. 
 

Chuck had the amulet not Metatron, who only knew about the lore of it. Then Chuck produced the one shown here, showed him he could turn it on and off. Then he put it in his pocket, and made the remark, "You'll never guess where this thing has been this entire time".  Then later it's shown in Sam's pocket which is why some fans think Chuck was saying Sam had it all along. I think Chuck was making the joke that he, himself had it all along but I totally see why others disagree.   

Here is the scene where he shows Metatron the amulet.

 

 

I'm sorry.  I mistyped.  I meant Chuck.

[SueB]

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

@DittyDotDot and @AwesomO4000 have made cases for why Sam could have had it.  Whether or not I concur with their findings wasn't the point of my post, which I know was a bit meandering, and I made some edits. 

The point of my post was that writing of SPN is not typically purposefully ambiguous so when things are ambiguous on screen, especially things that don't seem supported by past canon events, or seem on screen to be in direct opposition to what the writers say they were doing, leads to much headcanon and varied interpretations amongst the viewers. I don't think those varied interpretations are over reactions or making a big deal out of nothing.

In the case of the amulet, Robbie stated that he had in mind that Sam had it all along, so that comports with what some fans immediately thought was the case when the amulet glowed in Sam's pocket, not just here but out in SM land. From the POV of fans that don't see how Sam could have had it, then Chuck showing it to Marvatron and it being in Sam's pocket, confirms their POV that Chuck put it in Sam's pocket, which comports with all the other reasons given by those that think he didn't have it and in those cases, the writer's words and opinions are irrelevant to some of those viewers. And some viewers don't factor any comments from TPTB no matter what.  Then you have folks like me, who are interested in both text and subtext but I accept that subtext is not something most writers and showrunners are going to confirm or deny ( and I don't just mean Destiel things either). I mean a lot of subtext is in the show about a lot of things, stuff between the boys about their relationship and their relationship to Mary and John, etc, etc. All of that leads to why rarely there consensus on what this show is or isn't trying to say.  I think in the case of the amulet, it's saying that Sam had it, regardless of me finding that pretty unlikely. 

Honestly, I can't decide if SPN has become one big troll work or they've falling into writing for nostalgia and fanservice. 

As to this line, a lot of viewers after seeing it glowing in Sam's pocket, thought Chuck meant it was with Sam all along. That he had taken it from Sam and returned it to Sam's pocket. So I don't think it's as cut and dried that Chuck had it. It makes sense for me that he did but I can see why there is question.

emphasis mine

Ambiguity is on purpose.  They've stated so multiple times.  They try to leave SOME things open to allow writers to add in a plausible story later because it serves some purpose.  They also have no problem with fan interpretation.  For BIG season-plot things ... like what is Mary thinking... they leave it blank for a while and then fill it in later (whether or not we are satisfied with the answer, it's an intentional "mystery"). For universe building things ... like where was the amulet, they leave it open for future story or fan interpretation.

IMO, this line is MEANT to get us to speculate.  They don't do that very often but the put those in from time to time.  

Quote

CHUCK: I should really put this away. (CHUCK puts the amulet in his pocket. CHUCK chuckles.) You'll never guess where this thing has been this entire time.

But, and IMO, here's the important thing... just because Robbie says "Sam had it", doesn't mean that is where show canon MAY eventually place it.  It may never be brought up again (most likely) but they've left it open ON PURPOSE.  Now when and why did they do this?  Options:
1) Robbie wrote "Sam had it the whole time" and someone in editing said "let's leave that as a teaser because of (insert reason... could be some of the logistics issues people have said.... could be they want to get it out again later).
2) Robbie wrote it vague but made up his own canon because Robbie is and always has been an ardent fan.  He, like us, isn't going to leave that blank in his head. 

As audience members, IMO, it ramps up the tension when we are uncertain about a character's motivation.  If it's "paid off" later in the season, I think that's just fine.  If it's never paid off, it's a real problem IMO.  OTOH, if they leave details about the universe vague, IMO that works as well because they can fill in interesting details later.  For example - Crowley's ascension to King.  We never had that story.  We just kinda accepted that he was the winning side.  Then in "Stuck in the Middle With You" with get this MARVELOUS (IMO) backstory, expansion of the universe to include Princes of Hell and all sorts of future story implications. All because they left the details out of how Crowley started running hell.  I'd say "well played" to the writers for that.  

 

But this is the bitterness... and now I've gone and given a compliment.  So, I'll show myself out.  But.. one more thing... I'm going to go over to the "compare and contrast" thread and compare how Supernatural handles ambiguity vs Smallville.  You wanna see SueB be bitter???  Join me there in about 30 mins.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm sorry.  I mistyped.  I meant Chuck.

Okay, no problem.

Even in that case though, the video doesn't show that Chuck had the amulet all along. It shows that Chuck produced one out of the thin air, and it just disappears again. What Chuck did do is make the comment of "You'll never guess where it's been all along". And then it's only seen again later in Sam's pocket. I don't know why the transcript says Chuck put it in his pocket because that's not shown at all in that clip that I can see.

So that's why many viewers think Chuck was talking about it being with Sam all along, which comports with Robbie saying that he thinks Sam had it all along. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

There is no if, and, or, but that Chuck had the amulet.

Um, I think your discounting the fact that Chuck is God. He certainly had some form of the amulet, but whether it was the amulet Dean threw away is debatable, IMO.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

Ambiguity is on purpose.  They've stated so multiple times.  They try to leave SOME things open to allow writers to add in a plausible story later because it serves some purpose.  They also have no problem with fan interpretation.  For BIG season-plot things ... like what is Mary thinking... they leave it blank for a while and then fill it in later (whether or not we are satisfied with the answer, it's an intentional "mystery"). For universe building things ... like where was the amulet, they leave it open for future story or fan interpretation.

IMO, this line is MEANT to get us to speculate.  They don't do that very often but the put those in from time to time.

 Sure they do it from TIME TO TIME as you've said, with particular things and even with the amulet's whereabouts. So I'm not really seeing where I'm actually wrong in my comment that the show at it's core is not ambiguous in it's overall tone and tenor. 

Sure there are all kinds of reads on religion etc but the show itself does seem to answer it's own questions.  I'm not saying the show is telling the audience HOW to think about certain things but they do have POV on matters and when the writers say, "Yes, this is what I was thinking" that tells me that is what they intended. 

[SueB]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 Sure they do it from TIME TO TIME as you've said, with particular things and even with the amulet's whereabouts. So I'm not really seeing where I'm actually wrong in my comment that the show at it's core is not ambiguous in it's overall tone and tenor. 

Sure there are all kinds of reads on religion etc but the show itself does seem to answer it's own questions.  I'm not saying the show is telling the audience HOW to think about certain things but they do have POV on matters and when the writers say, "Yes, this is what I was thinking" that tells me that is what they intended. 

ITA, they are NOT ambiguous in overall tone and tenor.  I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I think they do it on purpose for specific reasons and usually pay off what they think is the important stuff later. 

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Um, I think your discounting the fact that Chuck is God. He certainly had some form of the amulet, but whether it was the amulet Dean threw away is debatable, IMO.

"What's on the screen is what counts" seems to be the running theme here, and Chuck says "You mean this?" and produces it. For me, that's pretty conclusively saying it was the amulet - there's just no reason for it not to be. The muddy water (IMO) only lies in where it was before turning up again in Sam's pocket.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Um, I think your discounting the fact that Chuck is God. He certainly had some form of the amulet, but whether it was the amulet Dean threw away is debatable, IMO.

 I don't think there was anything to suggest that it wasn't Dean's.  Metatron said that Dean had it. Chuck didn't say, "no, he had a different one."   And, he said you'll never guess where "this thing" has been, meaning the one in his hand.  Why would Metatron care where some random God-seeking amulet had been?

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, SueB said:

ITA, they are NOT ambiguous in overall tone and tenor.  I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I think they do it on purpose for specific reasons and usually pay off what they think is the important stuff later. 

And that is building a mystery for later reveals.  That's not necessarily the same thing as ambiguity that arises from bad storytelling or retcons. I tend to not think that back in s5 when Dean tossed the amulet that they had in mind to bring it back 6 years later especially when they never expected to be on the air this long, especially with all the opportunities they had to bring it back as has been pointed out in this thread.

For me, the whereabouts of Dean's amulet  seems to be answered by the end of DCMS. IMO, the show is saying that Sam had it, Chuck took it from Sam to show to Metatron and explain to him why he was could hide from the boys and was AWOL from the Apocalpyse, make the joke about where it's been, and then put it in Sam's pocket. That seems to comport with Robbie saying that he thinks Sam had it all along. For me,  I don't see the point of Robbie making that clarification if that's not what he wanted fans to understand was the case. 
 

Edited September 7, 2017 by catrox14

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

MO, the show is saying that Sam had it, Chuck took it from Sam to show to Metatron and explain to him why he was could hide from the boys and was AWOL from the Apocalpyse, make the joke about where it's been, and then put it in Sam's pocket.

And, IMO, if the show wanted us to know/think that SAm had the amulet, Chuck would have just told Metatron, "Sam's had it all along" instead of saying "you'll never guess where it's been." That tells me that the show either doesn't want us to know where it's been in case they think they'll have a use for that knowledge later, or where it was is unimportant.  If you, as the writer/director/producer/whatever, feel the need to clarify something offscreen, then unless it was due to an unexpected cancellation or something else out of your control, you suck at your job.

[DittyDotDot]

Personally, I think every show, whether purposeful or not, has an inherent ambiguity to it simply because, despite intentions, every person is going to view the show differently.

19 minutes ago, Katy M said:

 I don't think there was anything to suggest that it wasn't Dean's.  Metatron said that Dean had it. Chuck didn't say, "no, he had a different one."   And, he said you'll never guess where "this thing" has been, meaning the one in his hand.  Why would Metatron care where some random God-seeking amulet had been?

The point of Chuck pulling out the amulet was not to explain where it had been all this time, but was to explain why the amulet never glowed when Chuck was in it's precedence back in the day. He doesn't need THE actual amulet to illustrate the point that he is God. In fact, creating an illusion of the thing is probably a better illustration that he is in fact God than having the real thing.

I get that it doesn't make sense to you, and that's fine, but I think there's a lot of wiggle room here if one so desires to see something different. I was only responding to the "absolutes" being thrown around. IMO, there is no one right way, just the way that works for each individual.

[gonzosgirrl]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah, weirdly even if they brought back Jake Abel as Michael, that I could live with because John lived in the AU and may have have Adam. So at least with Adam we already know him.

But yeah, I'm losing hope that Jensen will ever get to play Michael. I'm sure Alt-Michael is the most powerful in that realm, which means Michael will probably be the AU version of Lucifer which means he's the one ordering babies being killed and somehow I suspect Lucifer will be redeemed in the AU by killing Michael and or some other nonsense.

Of course, they could go with an AU-Cas who is the biggest bad in the AU and that will be a conflict or what have you. But that will hurt my soul.  

At this point I think Dabb is obsessed with Pellegrino and Lucifer more than any other character on the show and he's angling for Lucifer redemption in the AU

At this point I'd be okay with Dean having been adopted or switched at birth, and not related to John or Mary at all, thus he was never the real vessel and they settled for Adam. He's nothing like John or the Mary they gave us in S12. Sure, he followed John's path into hunting, but that was more indoctrination (I refuse to use the word nurture) over nature. Dean has shown the compassion, empathy and love that was never demonstrated by Mary (except in flashbacks and Dean's memories/fantasies) and only rarely by John. He's a better person than either of them. Wouldn't it be fun if one of the other angels (Gabriel, even) knew about Heaven's plans and threw this monkey-wrench in there just to fuck with it? I'd be happier with a ret-con like that than 'any-vessel-will-do-Michael' of S5, or the 'suddenly not the older, more powerful brother who is playing with himself in a corner of the cage', or now (possibly) an all-powerful, possibly-evil being in the AU (and once again, not played by Jensen).

Edited September 7, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Personally, I think every show, whether purposeful or not, has an inherent ambiguity to it simply because, despite intentions, every person is going to view the show differently.

The point of Chuck pulling out the amulet was not to explain where it had been all this time, but was to explain why the amulet never glowed when Chuck was in it's precedence back in the day. He doesn't need THE actual amulet to illustrate the point that he is God. In fact, creating an illusion of the thing is probably a better illustration that he is in fact God than having the real thing.

I get that it doesn't make sense to you, and that's fine, but I think there's a lot of wiggle room here if one so desires to see something different. I was only responding to the "absolutes" being thrown around. IMO, there is no one right way, just the way that works for each individual.

Sure, there's wiggle room. It's possible that Sam pulled the amulet out of the wastebasket and then gave it to Cas, who sneaks into dean's room every night and puts it on him and then removes it right before he wakes up.  But, there's nothing in the narrative to suggest that any more than there is to suggest that Chuck was holding a different amulet or that Sam has had it the entire time.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sure, there's wiggle room. It's possible that Sam pulled the amulet out of the wastebasket and then gave it to Cas, who sneaks into dean's room every night and puts it on him and then removes it right before he wakes up.  But, there's nothing in the narrative to suggest that any more than there is to suggest that Chuck was holding a different amulet or that Sam has had it the entire time.

Agree to disagree. I think there are a lot of things that suggest it myself.

[ILoveReading]

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

At this point I'd be okay with Dean having been adopted or switched at birth, and not related to John or Mary at all

Thanks to Buck/Lemming There is a very good chance John isn't Dean's father.  In Children Shoudn't Play with Dead Things we find out John's blood type is AB negative.  In Soul Survivor Sam tells Dean he got his blood type which is O. 

Odds of a person with an AB blood type having an O child are very slim. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Thanks to Buck/Lemming There is a very good chance John isn't Dean's father.  In Children Shoudn't Play with Dead Things we find out John's blood type is AB negative.  In Soul Survivor Sam tells Dean he got his blood type which is O. 

Odds of a person with an AB blood type having an O child are very slim. 

Ha, that's too funny. I wonder what a different show we'd have if they actually had a bible or even just a person who gave a crap about continuity?

Considering I spent most of this past season tweeting #DeanIsAdopted, I'm pretty okay with this revelation ;)

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Ha, that's too funny. I wonder what a different show we'd have if they actually had a bible or even just a person who gave a crap about continuity?

Considering I spent most of this past season tweeting #DeanIsAdopted, I'm pretty okay with this revelation ;)

I'm attempting a s12 rewatch (some eps anyway) and the more I watch the more convinced I become that Dean must be adopted.  I'd be okay with that revelation as well.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

get that it doesn't make sense to you, and that's fine, but I think there's a lot of wiggle room here if one so desires to see something different. I was only responding to the "absolutes" being thrown around. IMO, there is no one right way, just the way that works for each individual.

Eh, I think there are absolutes in the show on certain things. The problem is that the show presents things that because they are now canon, are kind of absolutes unless a retcon changes them. The interpretations come into play when the absolutes make no sense.

Like there is no question that Dean became a demon but how exactly that happened is still unclear because of IMO bad storytelling. So then fans are trying to fill in the blanks that part. Did Dean REALLY die or was in just in suspended animation because the Mark wouldn't let him go.

21 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Thanks to Buck/Lemming There is a very good chance John isn't Dean's father.  In Children Shoudn't Play with Dead Things we find out John's blood type is AB negative.  In Soul Survivor Sam tells Dean he got his blood type which is O. 

Odds of a person with an AB blood type having an O child are very slim. 

LOL I remember that. Didn't they just decide that Dean's blood type wouldn't matter since he was a demon now? Or something.

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm attempting a s12 rewatch (some eps anyway) and the more I watch the more convinced I become that Dean must be adopted.  I'd be okay with that revelation as well.

Oh gods. That would just make all the Wincest stuff even worse. Unless folks just like Wincest because it's taboo. But if they aren't related, Wincesters would have a field day. LOL

[Katy M]

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Thanks to Buck/Lemming There is a very good chance John isn't Dean's father.  In Children Shoudn't Play with Dead Things we find out John's blood type is AB negative.  In Soul Survivor Sam tells Dean he got his blood type which is O. 

Odds of a person with an AB blood type having an O child are very slim. 

It's actually not very slim.  It's impossible.  However, you literally had to freeze the TV and pretty much squint to see that dog tag.  They didn't call attention to it with dialogue. So, I don't see that as important.  Also, maybe by "your" blood type, Sam just meant it was OK for him to get. AB(+) is the universal receiver.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

It's actually not very slim.  It's impossible.  However, you literally had to freeze the TV and pretty much squint to see that dog tag.  They didn't call attention to it with dialogue. So, I don't see that as important.  Also, maybe by "your" blood type, Sam just meant it was OK for him to get. AB(+) is the universal receiver.

Regardless of whether it was a blink and you miss it moment the show still established John and Deans' blood type.   They aren't compatible.  Obviously, I don't think they were trying to say that Dean isn't a Winchester.  But it should be a lesson that context and continuity matter, even the small details.

But if they did go there, (they won't) it wouldn't bother me because what better way to demonstrate "Family doesn't end with blood." Plus, a who are Dean's parents storyline would be a lot more interesting (to me) than

Spoiler

Sam raising Lucifer's spawn and Dean watching Sam raise Lucifer's spawn.

But that's probably a topic for another thread

Edited September 7, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Casseiopeia]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Thanks to Buck/Lemming There is a very good chance John isn't Dean's father.  In Children Shoudn't Play with Dead Things we find out John's blood type is AB negative.  In Soul Survivor Sam tells Dean he got his blood type which is O. 

Odds of a person with an AB blood type having an O child are very slim. 

Isn't type O a universal blood type?  I thought it was the most available blood type because it could be used on anyone.  Much easier for Sam to get.

[SueB]

12 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Isn't type O a universal blood type?  I thought it was the most available blood type because it could be used on anyone.  Much easier for Sam to get.

Plus I wouldn't hang anything on a prop from S1/S2 that didn't get a large focus. 

[Wayward Son]

I wouldn't say Dean is adopted. After all, he has slapped a kid in the face during an emergency situation (Let it Bleed), he has knowingly left his half brother to rot in Lucifer's cage for years (Appointment in Samarra till present), he has risked considerable damage to the natural order by killing Death himself (Brothers Keeper), he has thrown a close friend on to the street with no money or sources of protection (I'm no Angel) and of course he has been complicit in a gross violation of his younger brother (I think I'm Gonna Like It Here). I'd say Dean is no better or no worse than the rest of the Winchester's and very much like both  his parents.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

35 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

he has knowingly left his half brother to rot in Lucifer's cage for years (Appointment in Samarra till present)

Well, what exactly is he supposed to do about that?

 

35 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

he has thrown a close friend on to the street with no money or sources of protection

WE don't know that he didn't give him any money.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

I wouldn't say Dean is adopted. After all, he has slapped a kid in the face during an emergency situation (Let it Bleed), he has knowingly left his half brother to rot in Lucifer's cage for years (Appointment in Samarra till present), he has risked considerable damage to the natural order by killing Death himself (Brothers Keeper), he has thrown a close friend on to the street with no money or sources of protection (I'm no Angel) and of course he has been complicit in a gross violation of his younger brother (I think I'm Gonna Like It Here). I'd say Dean is no better or no worse than the rest of the Winchester's and very much like both  his parents.

Ben was panicked and in a bit of a stupor after watching the demon possesing Lisa stab her. Dean slapped Ben to get him out of that stupor because he needed Ben's help to shoot the gun so Dean could carry Lisa to safety. Putting that gun in Ben's hand was the last thing Dean ever wanted to do. Dean did not routinely abuse Ben nor raise him to be a hunter.

Dean was actually the only one who even tried to get Adam out of the cage and Death made Dean choose Sam or Adam, obviously he was going to choose Sam.

There is no evidence that Dean killing Death affected the natural order since people still died and were reaped. The Darkness was released because of the Mark being removed, not because Dean killed Death.

Dean told Cas he couldn't stay in the bunker, but there is no evidence that he didn't give Cas any money. It's just as likely that he did and Cas used that money until it ran out and he got the job at the Gas n Sip. 

Dean is so much better than either John or Mary it's not even close.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Ben was panicked and in a bit of a stupor after watching the demon possesing Lisa stab her. Dean slapped Ben to get him out of that stupor because he needed Ben's help to shoot the gun so Dean could carry Lisa to safety. Putting that gun in Ben's hand was the last thing Dean ever wanted to do. Dean did not routinely abuse Ben nor raise him to be a hunter.

Dean was actually the only one who even tried to get Adam out of the cage and Death made Dean choose Sam or Adam, obviously he was going to choose Sam.

There is no evidence that Dean killing Death affected the natural order since people still died and were reaped. The Darkness was released because of the Mark being removed, not because Dean killed Death.

Dean told Cas he couldn't stay in the bunker, but there is no evidence that he didn't give Cas any money. It's just as likely that he did and Cas used that money until it ran out and he got the job at the Gas n Sip. 

Dean is so much better than either John or Mary it's not even close.

We will have to disagree to disagree. I see Dean as just as bad as either of them.