Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

[MysteryGuest]

I always preferred Genevieve's Ruby to the first woman who's name now escapes me.  I don't know why, but she always drove me nuts.  And I also liked Bela.  She was an interesting foil for the boys.  

Edited May 7, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[DittyDotDot]

Uh, @MysteryGuest, you might want to spoiler tag that last sentence. 

[Pete Martell]

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think Bela suffered from some of the same writing pitfalls Charlie later did. They come onto the scene and automatically the leads` IQs drop five hundred points to facilitate her awesomeness. There is no push/pull where you win some, you lose some, other than her first and last episode. Charlie just was an ally instead of an antangonist so it probably didn`t became noticeable in quite the same way.

My issue with Bela was partly based on stupidity of the leads, but also just based on the general lazy, crass writing in her early appearances. "Red Sky At Morning" in particular was an opportunity for something fun and instead mostly just had her repeatedly calling Dean a dumb piece of ass. I'm sure someone thought this was just a role reversal, given some of his comments about women, but we knew Dean, whereas we had no idea who Bela was. Then there was shooting Sam, which guaranteed a lot of viewers would never accept her. Things like that tend to make me believe the speculation that Kripke never wanted her on the show and made sure she didn't last.

Only around the time of the episode where she encountered Gordon and he was a real challenge to her did I start to see more sides of the character. And by then it was too late. 

[Aeryn13]

In Season 4 they were too ham-fisted for me with Gluby, the supposed good demon of the west. The character no longer had any bite or anything to her. And to be honest, I thought Genevieve is not a strong enough actress to avoid inappropriate character bleed. If she had been some starry-eyed little genuine love interest, fine because that`s IMO what she played.

Heck, even JP still says Sam really loved her. Which I don`t think was the intention for the character, it is the actor who looks back upon that and can`t fully distingiush.

But since I loved Season 4 mostly overall, I can`t say Ruby 2 bothered me too much. I thought the actress was really bad in the role but I could ignore the character for the most part. Meanwhile I loathed Season 3 and Ruby1 was just one big thing that bothered me about it. Wasn`t a fan of Katie Cassidy`s portrayal either though in hindsight I did find her to be the better actress. 

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"Red Sky At Morning" in particular was an opportunity for something fun and instead mostly just had her repeatedly calling Dean a dumb piece of ass. I'm sure someone thought this was just a role reversal, given some of his comments about women

Dean has been initially portrayed - not for quite some time actually - as a ladies` man but he never really came across as thinking women are just good for sex. Or stupid. Or that outward beauty somehow means that.

In general, I think some of the "role reversals" on this show, they only get away with because Dean is a man. This entire butler/nursemaid/100 % revolving around Sam/having his "role" be just be Sam`s cheerleader in the Season 5 Finale etc. Even the last episode, he irons Sam`s shirt and Sam bitches about it and implies that Dean does it all the time. Picture them either as brother and sister or a romantic couple where the female part got such writing. I bet dollars to donuts the reaction wouldn`t be favourable.

I mean the episode where the female familiar wore a leash and called her witch-owner "master", racial casting aside, did that get standing ovations? Nope.

I don`t like the dynamic in general where on part of the equation is reduced to this, no matter the genders involved. 

Edited May 7, 2016 by Aeryn13

[mertensia]

Have we ever seen Sam do anything remotely domestic?

My problem with Bela is that her role seemed to be "make Sam and Dean look stupid".

[MysteryGuest]

Some fans seem convinced that Destiel will be revealed to be canon before the season is out.  They're angry at Jensen for saying that he thinks of Cas as a brother.  I'm not sure just how much of the fandom ships Destiel, but I absolutely do not want them to go there.  I have no problems with anyone's shipping anyone, but if the show runners cave to the fans, I'll be pissed.  Mainly because Dean has been portrayed one way for the entire series, but also because it reinforces the idea that men cannot love each other without it being somehow sexual.  I really hate that.  

Introduce another gay cast member, bring back the hunting couple from The Chitters, but do not change 11 years of character behavior just to please fans or to be trendy.

[Aeryn13]

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but if the show runners cave to the fans, I'll be pissed

I think they are already doing that, just to a different crowd so it`s not like it ain`t already happening. I doubt very much they`d ever make Destiel canon, they never really have experienced interest in doing so. For me, it really makes no difference if they pander to the Wincest crowd or the Destiel crowd, Dean is only ever a ship accessory in either ship, one to be blamed or to prop either Sam or Castiel. Dean himself doesn`t get treated well either way. 

[MysteryGuest]

I agree that Jensen gets lost in between the Wincest and Destiel fans.  It's a tug of war to see just who he likes best, since obviously, he cannot have more than one friend.  Bizarre.  I don't feel that the show treats him badly, however...either Jensen or Dean.  I know some fans do feel that way, but I personally don't.  I think they do their best to give both brothers and actors interesting things to do.  Jensen is a smart man, and a talented actor.  If he weren't happy with the role he's playing or how he's being treated, he wouldn't have stayed with them for going on 12 years.

[Aeryn13]

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I think they do their best to give both brothers and actors interesting things to do.

If that is their best, I seriously don`t want to see their worst. Purgatory and Demon!Dean trashed so quickly, your head was spinning. The hell trauma tabled after mid-Season 4 and these days, Dean can go to hell and you wouldn`t even know he had ever been there if Jensen didn`t put something in his performance. Not even being considered when they were breaking the trials storyarc for Season 8. Any mytharc-ties to Michael being tossed aside.

Personally, I want to see Jensen get the chance to play something else, a true different version for a change. I have seen the other actors do it enough time, to be frank.

I guess being given the same kind of scenes for 11 years in a row does count of an acting challenge on its own but IMO it`s a douchy one.      

[catrox14]

I knew Fan Fiction was gonna mess with the show even beyond Demon!Dean being early truncated.

So far there are three things that Fan Fiction foreshadowed for the s11 arc thus far.   

1) They brought back Dean's amulet in Fan Fiction. It was the fake amulet but they called it the Samulet and had Marie in Sam's costume, tell Dean he was wrong for ever throwing it away which was NOT a part of the play itself. So that could have just been Marie's opinion that Sam was wrong. BUT NOPE it seems that Marie was the avatar for the writers because as of 11.20, the actual amulet is back and is being used in the show because God turned it back and it shows up in Sam's coat pocket making it canon that Dean WAS wrong for tossing it away and Sam was right for keeping it which comports with Marie!Sam's opinion. 

2) Chuck appears as the Publisher at the end of Fan Fiction implying that Chuck is God or at least making fans think about whether Chuck is God. In 11.20 there is canon confirmation that Chuck is in fact, God.

3) Marie talks about setting an episode in outer space. In 10.23, Sam says that Death is going to send Dean into outer space. It was joke but in 11.01 we find out about the Empty which is out of space and time most likely. Canon outer space in Supernatural.

Possible foreshadowing.

4) There was a reference to the nature Destiel in subtext as being a part of Marie's play. The two girls that played Dean and Cas in Marie's play in their Dean and Cas wardrobe canoodling on screen in Dean's view and it was not part of Marie's interpretation of the the books.  

5) Dean becomes a woman. Now that COULD happen IF Dean somehow merged with Amara in her female form. 

Based on the three things I listed, I think there is an argument that canon Destiel is foreshadowed in Fan Fiction as well. Or not.  And there is an argument to be made that Destiel has been canon all along if one interprets the subtext and the framing of Dean and Cas' relationship as romantic. Some do, some do not. It's all valid.

But anyway I'm gonna rant about that fucking amulet.

The amulet was never Sam's. It was never intended to be Sam's. It's only called the Samulet because someone in fandom gave it that name and it was cute. It's a play on words. You add an S to amulet...oh look it's the Samulet.  That was supposed to be a gift from Sam to John. Why isn't it called then Johnulet? But really it was from Bobby to John because Bobby said it was special and gave it to Sam to give to John. Why isn't it called that Bobulet?

It's kind of funny and sad that at no point has it been called the Deanulet. Maybe that's the symbolism of the amulet. That it was never really Dean's at all. Dean is the fandom bicycle for everything. Why not this too?

My new head!canon is that Dean threw it away because it was never really supposed to be for him in the first place.

[Omegamom]

Dean threw the amulet in the trash because he and Cas had pinned their hopes on God, and God was shown to be absent and not giving a damn, as told to Sam and Dean in a personal message relayed by Joshua.  It was a bitter and defeated gesture, fitting with the bitterness and defeat all of Team Free Will was feeling at the time.  It was painful to watch.  

And now it has returned as a sign of hope, that God has not left the house, as everyone believed (even God).

As Shang Yiet said in the Shurley thread, it was a sweet gift from a sweet boy, that ended up symbolizing lots of things, and definitely not some type of "grudge gift" (as also said in the Shurley thread), and not something thrown away because Dean felt it wasn't his.  It was thrown away because hopes and dreams had been pinned on it, and those hopes and dreams were yanked away.  

[MysteryGuest]

I always thought the amulet was jokingly referred to as the Samulet because Sam gave it to Dean.  Regardless of what the original intent was for the thing, Sam ended up giving it to Dean, and Dean cherished it because it came from his brother.  I guess I don't see the negativity surrounding it.  

If staunchly heterosexual Dean suddenly realizes he's romantically in love with Castiel, that will pretty much do it for me.  I know people see the banter between them as a sign that Dean is secretly bi, but I don't buy it.  Right or wrong, that's how straight guys talk to each other.  Lots of teasing and gay references, etc.  I personally have never thought for a moment that Dean was attracted to Castiel sexually.  Does he love him, absolutely.  But I've never felt for a second that it was romantic love.

Edited May 7, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[Aeryn13]

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that ended up symbolizing lots of things, and definitely not some type of "grudge gift" 

I refered to it as such and I stand by that. For me, it fits the definition of a grudge gift. It`s simply my opinion. And I was happy to see it gone. Just as finding it sweet and awesome is an opinion. I do not believe that can be qualified as factual either way.

[catrox14]

Jensen might stay with the show for many reasons that have nothing to do with Dean Winchester himself nor does that mean he's happy  with what happens with Dean.  He was publicly disappointed with the early demise of Demon!Dean and he was livid about Charlies' death too.

He might stay because he's making bank and he cares about the people that work on the production and probably doesn't want them to lose their jobs because if he and Jared leave that's the end of the show as we know it. I don't imagine Jared continuing without Jensen.  Maybe he's sticking around until they figure out a spinoff that keeps those same folks that work on the show now are still employed.

We don't really know unless we ask Jensen.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

9 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Heck, even JP still says Sam really loved her.

Oh ew.  Can I unread this?  Season 4 made me nearly quit watching.  So I'm just going to stick with my own head!cannon that it was the demon blood that made Sam think he might love Ruby.  A little.  But not really.  

[Binns]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen might stay with the show for many reasons that have nothing to do with Dean Winchester himself nor does that mean he's happy  with what happens with Dean.  He was publicly disappointed with the early demise of Demon!Dean and he was livid about Charlies' death too.

He might stay because he's making bank and he cares about the people that work on the production and probably doesn't want them to lose their jobs because if he and Jared leave that's the end of the show as we know it. I don't imagine Jared continuing without Jensen.  Maybe he's sticking around until they figure out a spinoff that keeps those same folks that work on the show now are still employed.

We don't really know unless we ask Jensen.

Did he say he was mad about Charlie or was there an interview or something? I've seen a lot of references to others being upset at that like Rob Thompson as well as the guys. 

[MysteryGuest]

I certainly think the actors can be upset with certain storylines, or decisions that management may make, and still like what they're doing. Jensen has repeatedly said that he loves the character of Dean, and that he's content doing what he's doing.  I'm sure part of that is because it's comfortable, but he doesn't impress me as someone who would stay in a job that wasn't satisfying, just for the money.  I don't know him from a hole in the wall, so this is just my own interpretation of what he's said and the fact that he continues to sign up for more.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Binns said:

Did he say he was mad about Charlie or was there an interview or something? I've seen a lot of references to others being upset at that like Rob Thompson as well as the guys. 

Jensen said he went to the writers and told them to not do it and they were making a mistake. For Jensen to call the writers he has to be very concerned. He said he's done that a handful of times in all 11 seasons. At Comic Con the cast turned their back on Carver and didn't help him at all. Then Jensen then tried to smooth it over by saying Charlie was only supposed to be one episode so we should be grateful we had her as long as we did " but if you watch his face, IMO he was being pretty sarcastic.

[sarthaz]

Since I can't stomach talking about current episodes right now, I'll post thoughts on Ruby.  I liked KC's Ruby better, but I did enjoy the way GP played her final scenes, unable to contain her self-satisfaction at what she'd accomplished.  What bothers me about the two Rubies (Rubys?) is that both the writing and the acting basically portray her as two distinct characters. S3 Ruby is mysterious and possibly trying to legitimately help the brothers for reasons that aren't necessarily apocalyptic. We don't know what her angle is. It she selfish like Bela?  Or Devil-You-Know like Crowley? S4 Ruby, though, is 100% transparent and without nuance or subtlety.

[DittyDotDot]

I feel your pain about current episodes @sarthaz. I really, really do! ;)

I never thought Ruby was actually trying to help the Winchesters--not in S3 or S4--and I always assumed she was up to no good. To me, S3 Ruby is more aggressive in her approach to Sam which set Sam's alarm bells off. S4 Ruby learned how to manage Sam from her mistakes in S3. I still thought she was up to no good, but in hindsight, I can see how Sam's demon-blood addled mind was more easily taken in by her.

So, ITA they're written different, but it's a difference that actually works for me.

Still though, would've saved them a whole bunch of trouble if they'd just knifed her--with her own knife, no less--when Dean trapped her in that devil's trap in No Rest For The Wicked! It never fails to disappoint me they don't when I re-watch that one. ;)

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I feel your pain about current episodes @sarthaz. I really, really do! ;)

I never thought Ruby was actually trying to help the Winchesters--not in S3 or S4--and I always assumed she was up to no good. To me, S3 Ruby is more aggressive in her approach to Sam which set Sam's alarm bells off. S4 Ruby learned how to manage Sam from her mistakes in S3. I still thought she was up to no good, but in hindsight, I can see how Sam's demon-blood addled mind was more easily taken in by her.

So, ITA they're written different, but it's a difference that actually works for me.

Still though, would've saved them a whole bunch of trouble if they'd just knifed her--with her own knife, no less--when Dean trapped her in that devil's trap in No Rest For The Wicked! It never fails to disappoint me they don't when I re-watch that one. ;)

I think s3 Ruby appealed to Sam as a "sister in arms" at first. She was going to bolster Sam as a soldier to carrying on and getting vengeance. What I want to know is why Ruby the demon regardless of her meatsuit altered her "sister in arms" to seduction and demon blood. He wasn't demon blood addled when he listened to her lying ass the first time. I think he felt that since she saved his life and he was depressed and sad about Dean and drinking too much he just gave up and said WTF okay because you're in a meatsuit I find sexually more appealing, sure I'll drink your demon blood.  COME ON, SAM!!

It's so weird LOL

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I think s3 Ruby appealed to Sam as a "sister in arms" at first. She was going to bolster Sam as a soldier to carrying on and getting vengeance. What I want to know is why Ruby the demon regardless of her meatsuit altered her "sister in arms" to seduction and demon blood. He wasn't demon blood addled when he listened to her lying ass the first time. I think he felt that since she saved his life and he was depressed and sad about Dean and drinking too much he just gave up and said WTF okay because you're in a meatsuit I find sexually more appealing, sure I'll drink your demon blood.  COME ON, SAM!!

It's so weird LOL

I always presumed that part of the attraction on Sam's part was self-hate.  Like, he was defiling himself with her.  He was so done with everything at that point, he wanted revenge and to die getting it. And sleeping with a demon is hard to picture as ANYTHING "good/wholesome/healthy".  It's pretty damn UNHEALTHY.  And he appeared to continue to practice but the sequence is sex AFTER he defiles his body by drinking demon blood.  In short, he's really rolling himself in the mental mud with Ruby.

Surely SOMEONE has written the psychology of this self-hate act up in a sophisticated meta somewhere.....

[Omegamom]

I wish they had shown the progression.  I figured she had him try without the demon blood, it was hard as hell, they got into sex, she worked on him saying demon blood would help with the demon exorcisms, give it a try.  And because by that time, she'd gotten him (semi?) sober and taught him how to pull out at least a bit of a demon on his own, and he was sleeping with her, and she claimed that as a young demon she still had feelings and sorta wanted to do good, well...

Manipulation, pure and simple.

[auntvi]

The commentary for When the Levee Breaks on the season 4 DVDs is with Bob Singer and Sera Gamble. She says she wrote Sam to be basically "rolling himself in the mental mud." She meant the scene when Sam threw Ruby on the bed and then slid down her body to get the knife to be horrific -- a junkie needing a fix. However, Bob Singer said he thought it was kinda sexy. And there is the difference between Singer and Gamble!

Here's one meta analyzing what's going on with Sam at this time: criss angel.  

Edited May 23, 2016 by auntvi
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[SueB]

9 minutes ago, auntvi said:

The commentary for When the Levee Breaks on the season 4 DVDs is with Bob Singer and Sera Gamble. She says she wrote Sam to be basically "rolling himself in the mental mud." She meant the scene when Sam threw Ruby on the bed and then slid down her body to get the knife to be horrific -- a junkie needing a fix. However, Bob Singer said he thought it was kinda sexy. And there is the difference between Singer and Gamble!

I take comfort that my mind is not like Bob Singers.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, auntvi said:

The commentary for When the Levee Breaks on the season 4 DVDs is with Bob Singer and Sera Gamble. She says she wrote Sam to be basically "rolling himself in the mental mud." She meant the scene when Sam threw Ruby on the bed and then slid down her body to get the knife to be horrific -- a junkie needing a fix. However, Bob Singer said he thought it was kinda sexy. And there is the difference between Singer and Gamble!

Here's one meta analyzing what's going on with Sam at this time: criss angel.  

Yeah well I'm not so sure about Sera Gamble's mindset what's sexy to be that different than Singer's  because she said when Meg!Sam was menacing, abusing and being rapey with Jo that it was super hot..so...there you go.

Edited May 23, 2016 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

 I thought it was both.

[ZennyKenny]

Oh look, the perfect thread! I'm very bitter over the wasted character that is Amara. Personally, I think they made a huge mistake in giving "The Darkness" a body. There was such potential to bring back real fear & tension to the show with a "stay in the light or you get consumed" type of thing. To me, it's scarier when you can't communicate or reason with your enemy.

But, this is Supernatural, where everything has to be human. So they gave the darkness a human body. Then they went the grey route, meaning Amara was supposed to be neither good nor evil. Which was also an interesting concept. And early in the season, when she was still learning about the world that her brother created, I was excited to see how she was going to react to it. Also, I didn't quite understand the whole connection thing with Dean, but I figured they'd elaborate on that in the future.

Only they did none of that. The didn't go ANYWHERE with her character development. Every time she appears on screen she basically has the same dialogue. They didn't expand on her connection with Dean, they didn't follow up on her exploring our culture (when she did when she was a teenager) and reacting to it one way or another. They completely dropped the plot of her trying to heal peoples' suffering by eating their souls. I thought there was some potential there, maybe trying to turn into a kind of mother figure for us, recognizing that God had abandoned us.

Hell, the least they could have done is have her try nacho cheese and be disgusted by it.

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think s3 Ruby appealed to Sam as a "sister in arms" at first. She was going to bolster Sam as a soldier to carrying on and getting vengeance. What I want to know is why Ruby the demon regardless of her meatsuit altered her "sister in arms" to seduction and demon blood. He wasn't demon blood addled when he listened to her lying ass the first time. I think he felt that since she saved his life and he was depressed and sad about Dean and drinking too much he just gave up and said WTF okay because you're in a meatsuit I find sexually more appealing, sure I'll drink your demon blood.  COME ON, SAM!!

It's so weird LOL

IMO, Sam was basically already at rock-bottom by the time Ruby shows up in S4. I didn't get the sense Sam didn't see the hook on Ruby's line, he just didn't care if he got hooked at that point. IMO, Sam doesn't really start biting on Ruby's line until after Dean returns and he stops drinking the demon blood. I always felt like he didn't believe anything good would come of what he was doing with Ruby until he needed a reason to start taking the drug again. In hindsight, I see it was classic addiction behavior.

Still though, I think it'd take more than feeling down and out to get me to drink blood, let alone demon blood. But hey, meth has always baffled me too, so I guess I've just never been properly motivated to consider it. 

Anyhoo, to bring this back to Ruby, I just think it was easier for Sam to fall in with Ruby in S4 because she comes at him from a different tact that basically appealed to Sam's desire to feel like he was in control. While Dean and everyone else demanded he stop using his psychic crap, Ruby merely suggested that if he wanted to take out Lilith, he would need to get back in shape. So, Ruby made Sam feel like he a choice while everyone else made him feel he had none. I'm in no way saying Sam's poor decision-making was Dean's fault, but I can see why the bad choices would be more appealing to Sam given how the universe had been pushing Sam around for most of his life. 

[companionenvy]

I agree that Sam wasn't in a good head space, to say the least, in season 4, but I actually don't blame him all that much for either trusting Ruby or drinking the demon blood. Ruby had saved/helped Sam and Dean multiple times over a period of many months. Even Dean had grudgingly accepted her help on several occasions in both S3 and S4. Lillith had, to all appearances, tried to kill her, which added further credibility to the notion that she was at least nominally on team Winchester, no matter what her reasons were. Yes, Sam turns out to have been wrong to trust her, but based on the information he had at the moment, I think he was acting reasonably. The only difference between Sam trusting Ruby and Dean (well, Sam too, but Dean to a greater extent) working with Crowley on a variety of occasions is that Dean's decisions wind up being narratively validated and Sam's don't. Also, demon shenanigans excluded, I don't think Dean was sleeping with Crowley, but that's another matter :)

When it comes to the demon blood, I never actually bought the line that Sam was lusting after power, at least at first. That may have come later, and I certainly think he liked feeling like he was the stronger brother for a change. But what I saw was a Sam that was pretty disgusted by the idea of drinking the demon blood, but genuinely believed it was necessary -- and that it was saving more people. Draining the nurse of blood was a crossing the moral event horizon moment, and Sam was obviously losing control for some time before that, but again, I don't think his choices were terrible given the options as he understood them. Remember, even Bobby, who was often the show's voice of reason, questioned Dean's decision to lock Sam in the panic room -- and, of course, in Swan Song, Sam DID have to drink a lot of demon's blood to save the world.

To me, Sam's mistake in S4 is concealing what he was doing from everyone, especially once he received multiple warnings from pretty credible sources. When Dean had the mark, foolish as that decision was, he made it clear to Sam and Cas that they might have to take him out if he wound up going dark side (although, if I recall, this wasn't until after getting a huge wake up call in the form of spending a summer as a demon). Sam doesn't make any contingency plans. I can understand him not telling Dean, under the circumstances, but I think he should have told Bobby -- who I don't think would necessarily have stopped him. Bobby could then have kept a closer eye on Sam, and probably identified some of Ruby's manipulations earlier in the game. 

Edited May 24, 2016 by companionenvy

[ZennyKenny]

Unpopular opinion. Just cos I need something to keep me going until tomorrow night.

 

I LOVE season 7. Tbh it's one of my favorite seasons. I wasn't interacting with the SPN community at that time, so I had no idea that it was so hated.

While I agree that the presentations of the Leviathans was lackluster, I really liked the idea of them. Instead of hiding in some den and feeding off of unlucky individuals, they took a much larger approach. Many villains say that they want to rule the world, and it doesn't really mean anything. But these guys had motive, and they had a plan. Personally, I loved their plan because I thought it was a statement about what is actually going on in our society (think sugars hidden in everything, gmos, etc.)

Plus there are so many great moments!

- Dean trying to hide his lip-synching Air Supply from Sam in the car
- The return of Jo
- Kevin's introduction
- Charlie's introduction
- Dean confronting Dick Roman outside the hospital, while onlookers recorded it with their phones
- "I'm Dr. Sexy! Your surgery is when I say it is!"
- Sam & Dean dopplegangers complaining about Sam & Dean at the diner
- Bobby confronting his father
- Dean's pissed off sandwich
- the concept of "being bibbed"
- Dean complaining of needing his "warrior food"
- Meg & Cas
- Cas & the bees
- Lucifer with the megaphone when Sam was in the asylum
- Lucifer singing "Stairway to Heaven" 50 times in a row.
- Lucifer. Because Lucifer.

Damn, I'm hyping myself up now! I may have to go back and watch it again after the season finale!

[AwesomO4000]

I'm going to join you in the season 7 love, except I also liked quite a few of the leviathans individually even if not necessarily always together. So I'll add a few more things to your great list above that I enjoyed.

• The introduction of Frank, because I loved Frank and all his Frankisms
• Leviathan Chet... especially his exchanges with Bobby
• Jodi coming back and being in three episodes, because I love Sheriff Mills
• The leviathan real estate lady and her harried assistant
• Killer clowns, killer unicorns, land sharks, and giant Slinkies
• "This conversation does not require a weapons discharge." (and that whole "stone one" exchange)
• Killer porn - "Don't ask."
• Dick Roman
• Dick jokes "Or are you strictly into Dick now" (What? 12-year old me thought they were funny - every time - and she won't apologize)
• The creepy "Repo Man" episode. I loved the dark concept of a host feeling "freed" while being possessed, because he/she could use that as an excuse to indulge his/her dark desires.
• "Don't let Satan change my presets."

Bottom line, season 7 is one of my favorites also - definitely top 5. (currently # 4... 2, 1, 5, 7, 6)

[ZennyKenny]

I have mixed feelings about Frank. As a character unto himself, I like him a lot. He was just what the Dr. ordered for Dean at that point in his life. HOWEVER! TPTB had stated that in season 7 they wanted to strip the boys of everything that they depended on. The season would emphasize Sam & Dean being alone and having no help in dealing with the Leviathans (I forget exactly how they phrased it, but that was the general gist). Ok, fine. So bye-bye Cas, and bye-bye Bobby. Hell even the car had to go! So to me, Frank's introduction was a slap in the face to Bobby's death, because it seemed like he was meant to be a kind of Bobby replacement.

Lol @ the dick jokes. That's one of the bullet points people usually complain about concerning that season. Because the show is just so high-brow otherwise.

"This conversation does not require a weapons discharge." YES! There are SO MANY good lines in this season! I could probably list a bunch off and the scene would pop up in your mind.

"As it turns out, I adopted two boys, and they turned out to be HEROES, so you can go to hell!"

"You're either smiling cos your scared, or smiling cos you're stupid."

"I had a brother with this many issues once. You know what I did? I ate him."

"Everything goes better with cheese."

"Don't roofie me and call it romance."

(Dean, after getting his head slammed into a table by a vampire) "Thanks! That was awesome."

I can't remember it exactly word-for-word, but Frank's "You decide to be fine, til the end of the week" speech.

And of course... "What's happening?! What's happening?!"

[Diane]

37 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm going to join you in the season 7 love, except I also liked quite a few of the leviathans individually even if not necessarily always together. So I'll add a few more things to your great list above that I enjoyed.

• The introduction of Frank, because I loved Frank and all his Frankisms
• Leviathan Chet... especially his exchanges with Bobby
• Jodi coming back and being in three episodes, because I love Sheriff Mills
• The leviathan real estate lady and her harried assistant
• Killer clowns, killer unicorns, land sharks, and giant Slinkies
• "This conversation does not require a weapons discharge." (and that whole "stone one" exchange)
• Killer porn - "Don't ask."
• Dick Roman
• Dick jokes "Or are you strictly into Dick now" (What? 12-year old me thought they were funny - every time - and she won't apologize)
• The creepy "Repo Man" episode. I loved the dark concept of a host feeling "freed" while being possessed, because he/she could use that as an excuse to indulge his/her dark desires.
• "Don't let Satan change my presets."

Bottom line, season 7 is one of my favorites also - definitely top 5. (currently # 4... 2, 1, 5, 7, 6)

 

17 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I have mixed feelings about Frank. As a character unto himself, I like him a lot. He was just what the Dr. ordered for Dean at that point in his life. HOWEVER! TPTB had stated that in season 7 they wanted to strip the boys of everything that they depended on. The season would emphasize Sam & Dean being alone and having no help in dealing with the Leviathans (I forget exactly how they phrased it, but that was the general gist). Ok, fine. So bye-bye Cas, and bye-bye Bobby. Hell even the car had to go! So to me, Frank's introduction was a slap in the face to Bobby's death, because it seemed like he was meant to be a kind of Bobby replacement.

Lol @ the dick jokes. That's one of the bullet points people usually complain about concerning that season. Because the show is just so high-brow otherwise.

"This conversation does not require a weapons discharge." YES! There are SO MANY good lines in this season! I could probably list a bunch off and the scene would pop up in your mind.

"As it turns out, I adopted two boys, and they turned out to be HEROES, so you can go to hell!"

"You're either smiling cos your scared, or smiling cos you're stupid."

"I had a brother with this many issues once. You know what I did? I ate him."

"Everything goes better with cheese."

"Don't roofie me and call it romance."

(Dean, after getting his head slammed into a table by a vampire) "Thanks! That was awesome."

I can't remember it exactly word-for-word, but Frank's "You decide to be fine, til the end of the week" speech.

And of course... "What's happening?! What's happening?!"

I love season  7 for all of the above reasons.

[SueB]

I loved Frank.  I'm not trying to talk you out of anything... it's just that the other day, I was thinking of all the old Supernatural characters I'd like to see again and Frank was one of them.  I have no explanation... I just found him funny. 

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, ZennyKenny said:

I have mixed feelings about Frank. As a character unto himself, I like him a lot. He was just what the Dr. ordered for Dean at that point in his life. HOWEVER! TPTB had stated that in season 7 they wanted to strip the boys of everything that they depended on. The season would emphasize Sam & Dean being alone and having no help in dealing with the Leviathans (I forget exactly how they phrased it, but that was the general gist). Ok, fine. So bye-bye Cas, and bye-bye Bobby. Hell even the car had to go! So to me, Frank's introduction was a slap in the face to Bobby's death, because it seemed like he was meant to be a kind of Bobby replacement.

I too enjoy S7. It's everything once liked about Supernatural. As to Frank, I agree with you that they kinda screwed up what they were doing by taking away Bobby only to give them Frank and then take that away to give them Bobby back, but I just don't care. I adore Frank. He amused me greatly.

BTW, I think TPTB were touting S7 as a western. Lonely characters traveling a desolate landscape in search of a wrongdoer in order to exact revenge for a crime done to them. To me it fit perfectly into Supernatural's wheelhouse.

Edited May 25, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Omegamom]

Chalk up another vote for Season 7.  I really liked it, for all the reasons above.

[Binns]

I liked 7 (except for the lack of Baby- poor Dean!). I overall enjoyed most seasons except 8/9 - not so much there. 

[SueB]

The lack of Baby is I swear WHY we had a new show runner.  Not actually joking. 

[ZennyKenny]

5 hours ago, Binns said:

I liked 7 (except for the lack of Baby- poor Dean!). I overall enjoyed most seasons except 8/9 - not so much there. 

Yeah I didn't care for 8 or 9, either. Or 10, for that matter. When I try to think back, everything looks so muddled. I have to think hard to remember the seasons' story arc. I think season 8 had Benny. Season 10 was the "year 3 days of the Deanmon", and that's all I pretty much remember.

[sarthaz]

I'm not a huge fan of Frank, but I too enjoyed Season 7, mostly because Dick Roman was a really fun villain, and they did a lot of interesting stuff with him and his master plan.

[Binns]

59 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Yeah I didn't care for 8 or 9, either. Or 10, for that matter. When I try to think back, everything looks so muddled. I have to think hard to remember the seasons' story arc. I think season 8 had Benny. Season 10 was the "year 3 days of the Deanmon", and that's all I pretty much remember.

What I remember most about 8 is the character assassination of Sam and for 9 I hated the Gadreel storyline for the most part and the terrible relationship the boys had. There were standout moments here and there but when I rewatch I sort of dread those seasons and I'm not one that can skip an episode. Except Bloodlines. I can always skip Bloodlines. 

[catrox14]

Unpopular opinion. I actually really liked the 2nd of s9 minus that weird episode of the Originals that got put in our universe.  I really like s10 on the whole despite the early truncation of demon!Dean, a couple of other episodes and the stupid finale.

I thought s10 was better on a binge watch.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm onboard with all the season 7 love.  It was a fun season with an interesting big bad and the introduction of some great characters.  

[mertensia]

Season 7 has always been one of my favorite seasons. The actor clearly had a ball playing Dick Roman, we got introduced to Frank, Charl i e and Kevin  and except for the horrible Osiris episode I'll happily rewatch the season.

[sarthaz]

Watching the finale last night, I realize I find it so difficult to care about much because of the way they've ruined their own mythology.  Hell isn't scary anymore, and I'm not comforted about anyone being in Heaven. Angels are pussies and crybabies. Demons are even worse.  I get why Crowley just sits around and drinks now.  He must be so fucking bored with it all.

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

Watching the finale last night, I realize I find it so difficult to care about much because of the way they've ruined their own mythology.  Hell isn't scary anymore, and I'm not comforted about anyone being in Heaven. Angels are pussies and crybabies. Demons are even worse.  I get why Crowley just sits around and drinks now.  He must be so fucking bored with it all.

I didn't realize it until I read this, but you really hit the nail on the head. Fear = tension. Everything's been demystified now, so there's no reason to be afraid. IMO, what adds to this is that any new threat never gets taken far enough. Ex: Abaddon should have succeeded in taking over Hell, and the demons should have once again been a legitimate threat on Earth led by her, even to Crowley. She had the energy and the sadistic streak to make Hell scary again.

Even when Castifer ruled Hell, nothing of significance happened. Except to Crowley. But here's the thing: WE'RE not Crowley. One of the most significant things that made SPN so intriguing, imo, is that Sam & Dean were saving ordinary people from extraordinary threats. We could relate. When a demon possesses a loved one and describes how they are going to torture them, that is scary as hell. We can relate to the powerlessness. But angels and demons fighting amongst themselves? Not relateable. Not scary. Therefore not easy to care about.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

But angels and demons fighting amongst themselves? Not relateable. Not scary. Therefore not easy to care about.

I think it depends on how well you established the characters of those angels and demons. If it`s just "goon angel number 7" fights against "background demon number 5", it just holds no meaning.

In and of itself, I don`t have a problem with bringing in big mythological figures. And them having feuds amongst themselves with powers and everything. I love superhero team-up movies, I love the X-men mutants fighting against each other and I love super-powerered characters having battle royales. Just, to make that happen here, they had to de-mystify those figures and raise up the Winchesters to mythological figures themselves. They did both, unfortunately with their typical bull-in-china-shop mentality.

And now their problem is you can`t really go back from that place. When bitchy Brit yammered about her MOL branch and how they had watched and the Winchesters were basically just souped-up hunters who were messing around with stuff they couldn`t even comprehend, it just felt silly.

Henriksen going after them in Season 2 worked better because he didn`t know about the Supernatural, he just thought they were human, albeit crazy serial killers. This chick knows what`s what so she should also know this claim is ridiculous. She knows they have a friendly tag-a-long angel - how normal does she think that is, for hunters or anyone really? - she might know about Crowley and Rowena as well. She is standing in a place where just a few days ago God watched porn in. And hey, she DID notice the apocalypse had been averted. What did she figure, that it happened without anyone running interference?  

"You have no idea what you are messing around with" is something that someone with a HIGHER level of knowledge/connection/rank/status says to the overeager, naive novice. How much bacon did Chuck eat when he was staying at the British MOL place then? Does Crowley drink their whiskey too? Does Rowena make tea for them? Have they had lots of trouble with Lucifer locking himself in his room also?

The idea of putting the Winchesters on trial isn`t even a bad one, though maybe that should have happened after they started another apocalypse, not after they kept one from happening. It`s bad form and all. But at this point it would be like putting God on trial. And whatever you would tell him, it probably wouldn`t be "this stuff is above your paygrade".    

[trxr4kids]

I'm so tired of Sam and Dean being blamed for shit that is not their fault and now we have Ladywhatever doing it again leading into season 12. My list:

The apocalypse: 1st & last seal......people sell their souls all the time on supernatural, Dean couldn't have had any possible way of knowing his deal was different......they kill demons all the time, Sam couldn't possibly have known Lillith was different.

Getting Sam's soul back was the only sensible thing to do, had Dean just killed soulless he could've just been resurrected again to do more harm, better a drooling mess than a psychopath on the loose.

Purgatory, Eve and Leviathans were completely on Crowley, Castiel and Raphael.

Not closing the gates of hell....Metatron was an untrustworthy POS so let's say Sam had completed it, I think it would have played out 1 of 3 ways ........1) it ejects all demons to earth and hellbound spirits can't get in. 2 ) it traps the demons that were in hell at the time the spell was completed while also locking out demons and hellbound spirits on earth 3 ) all demons are sucked into hell and it's locked for demons only so hellbound souls can enter but can't get out. Considering it was a finale I think it's safe to assume it wouldn't have been #3.

The MOC, Demon Dean....pretty much nothing happened of consequence other than the removal of the mark which released The Darkness which was also of no real consequence. I mean I'm pretty sure a random shapeshifter or vampire was responsible for an equivalent death count.

So why is Ladygofuckherself bitching at Sam?

Side rant: terrible CGI effects from the last 2 eps that look like a Charmed episode, I actually had to pause because I couldn't follow over my cackling.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Side rant: terrible CGI effects from the last 2 eps that look like a Charmed episode, I actually had to pause because I couldn't follow over my cackling.

Could you hear me howling when Chuck was suspended in the air last week? Yeah, the special effects have really gotten goofy lately!