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Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

mstaken

By mstaken
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

In NRFTW, Dean tells Sam "This is all my fault. I know that" when Dean only has moments left before midnight. Doesn't that count as a "wrong"? Or does it only count if he wouldn't do it again? ;)

 

I agree with Demented, especially in this case, because while Dean in "No Rest..." was admitting that Sam's current situation was his fault, and that he felt badly about it, he still might not have thought that his decision to make the deal was wrong.

 

For me it's sort of like the Gadreel situation. Dean thought that Kevin's death and how Sam felt about it was his fault and felt bad about it, but he still thought that having Gadreel take over Sam to heal him was not the wrong thing to do. So in that case a "this is my fault" wouldn't equal an "I was wrong."

 

Same thing with Sam and getting rid of the mark of Cain from Dean. When he prays, he admits that all that is happening is his fault, but he also says later that he wouldn't change it, because for him saving Dean was the right thing to do.

 

Especially in the Winchester's world, an admission of "It's my fault" can coexist with still thinking you were right and/or saying that you would do it again if given a second chance.

 

(Thought that I would clarify for you, Demented Daisy. I hope that wasn't out of line.)

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ILoveReading

ILoveReading

(edited)

From the spoiler thread 

 

I'm not convinced that Dean won't play a part in Amara's eventual demise.  I think his coming clean to Sam about how he's questioning himself was just a BM.  This whole season has been about the boys confiding in one another, and not keeping things secret, and that was just the latest one.  Even if Sam thinks it's all on him now, I have a feeling Dean will have to be the one to kill her when the time comes.  And it's going to take more than a butter knife to do it.

 

 

I remember when the press release for Trial and Error came out and it said that one brother would do the trials.  My first impression (and that of some of my fellow Dean fans) was to wonder why they were bothering to even pretend there was any debate on who it would be.  There was never any doubt in my mind it would be Sam.  Then it was.  I saw lots of speculation about how Dean would have  a part to play in the trials.  Then the angel trials were mention and again there was speculation that Dean would get them.  They went to Cas.  Even Jensen described is role as "Guilty cheerleader.   The only spoiler we had for Dean during the back half of 8 was Dean would hang stuff in his room. 

 

Then the writers admitted they never even considered Dean for the trials, that his name wasn't mentioned in the planning of the back half of season 8.  

 

The only Dean spoiler we've had all year is that Dean gets hit on by an elderly lady.  That already happened.  No other Dean spoilers have been even hinted at.

 

In Dabb's episode we have a never been seen before smiting sickness to keep Dean away from Amara.

 

Amara not taking Dean's soul whether because she decided not to or couldn't should be a major plot point.  According to Carver its just "oh well, were happy to let you guys can decide for yourself."

 

Sam says "I got this", not we or us or you (meaning Dean) are strong enough.  Just I, meaning Sam and Sam alone.  On top of season 8 and everything that has happened so far (or more accurately hasn't happened) so far it doesn't instill a lot of confidence that Dean is going to be allowed to do anything more than watch during the big confrontation.

 

Id love to be wrong but I honestly see nothing show related that even remotely suggests they are going to start focusing on Dean or that he has any part to play.  To many flashing neon signs right now.

Edited by ILoveReading
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)

So, Sam didn`t say Dean was right once in Seasons 2-5? That surprises even me. I wonder if the writers thought it would besmirch the character if such an acknowledgment about Dean crossed his lips or if they just never thought Dean was right, about anything ever. 

 

I'm actually surprised about season 5 myself, especially the 2nd episode (Good God, Y'all) where I thought Sam had told Dean he was right about not trusting him... but it turns out that when I checked Sam didn't say it outright, but talked around it, saying (paraphrase) "I know you don't trust me, and I get it, because I don't trust me either." Coincidentally this is when Dean tells Sam he was right his one time that season - i.e. that Sam is right that he should go away on his own, because it's better for both of them.

 

But, it's actually seasons 3 through 5 where Sam doesn't say Dean is right, not 2 through 5. Actually according to Demented's data, in season 2, Sam told Dean he was right 4 times (to Dean's telling Sam he was right 0 times). So counting all of the seasons, the total count is Sam says Dean is right 6 times, Dean says Sam is right 10 (with about 2 or 3 of those having to do with Sam being right about Dean freaking about John's death.)

 

So you were right, there is a little difference, but it's not as big as you had suggested and doesn't include season 2 at all. And in the end, the difference is about the same as the difference in the "Thanks" numbers between them (from Demented's data for season 3 - 5: Sam - 6, Dean - 3).

 

I also have a feeling the "you're right" numbers are going to change in season 6 and 7 potentially* I know there will be a few more "Thanks" from Sam there as well (he got kind of "thanky" in those seasons if I remember correctly, though Sam in general was kind of "thanky" from the start, so I'm glad that hasn't really changed.)

 

* Though some of those might be from soulless Sam and so I don't know if they'll actually count - as in I'm not sure how genuine they really are rather than manipulative. In fact, I think I remember soulless Sam saying "you're right" to Dean quite a few times, but once we find out that he's soulless, it puts into question whether he was just saying that to appear "normal" or to manipulate Dean or both.

 

 

Demented Daisy, in your data for season 6 are you going to count soulless Sam separately (like the Purgatory kills)? I think that would be the fair thing to do, since many of soulless Sam's "you're rights" are likely mostly for show and not genuine. Soulless Sam was sometimes amusing, but he was a also a major asshat.

 

Oh, and if I haven't thanked you yet for this latest round of data - a hearty thank you from me. I love this kind of data shit, so I'm enjoying this big time.

 

Edited to add:

 

Even Jensen described is role as "Guilty cheerleader.

 

I never really got that. What was Dean supposed to be guilty about? It never made any sense to me, and it wasn't something that I saw from the storyline either.

 

As for the trials going to Sam and Castiel and not Dean... well my opinion was generally that they went to Sam and Castiel, because they were never meant to succeed, and one actually started an apocalypse. And it's not  like the trials Sam had were even that big of a storyline. They basically lasted only a little over 1/3 of the season, shared the plot time with Castiel's "trials," and they failed. In my opinion, it was a make up for the crappy Amelia storyline which was so badly conceived and realized that it made the purgatory storyline look amazing in comparison.

 

But I do get that miles vary there.

 

Sam says "I got this", not we or us or you (meaning Dean) are strong enough.  Just I, meaning Sam and Sam alone.

 

True, but Sam's face at the end doesn't back up those words in my opinion. I think Sam said that trying to be strong for Dean, so Dean wouldn't worry. Based on his expression after he said it and Dean left - Sam doesn't believe he "has it" at all.

 

Maybe I'll try to find a screencap to illustrate.

Edited by AwesomO4000
Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I won't count Soulless Sam's -- well, anything.  It's different from their actions.  A kill is a kill; an apology or thank you is meaningless if it doesn't come from the heart/soul.

 

Same with Demon Dean.  I doubt I'd have anything to count in that case, but I haven't watched those episodes enough to be sure.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

I never really got that. What was Dean supposed to be guilty about?

 

From Season 8? Being so horrible to poor Sam upon returning from Purgatory. Ruining Sam`s new life. The changed voice mail of doom. Lying about Benny. Dragging Sam back into things by the sheer power of existing. Being such a weak loser that Sam had to save and physically and emotionally take on the Trials. 

 

Not that I believe any of those things but IMO the narrative played like that. In the Finale, it kinda settled on the first one because Dean`s attitude apparently made Sam suicidal.

 

Even if he wasn`t guilty, the mindnumbingly  horrific part of the equation was the cheerleader thing, not the guilty thing. 

 

 

Sam says "I got this", not we or us or you (meaning Dean) are strong enough.  Just I, meaning Sam and Sam alone.  On top of season 8 and everything that has happened so far (or more accurately hasn't happened) so far it doesn't instill a lot of confidence that Dean is going to be allowed to do anything more than watch during the big confrontation.

 

Watch? He`ll be lucky if he isn`t sent to the kitchen to make some food while the actual heroes are out doing the heroics. 

 

Like you, I have no real hope re: Dean having a vital part either. I mean, back in Season 5 until it happened, I couldn`t believe they would complete trash 2 years worth of story for Dean and throw him in the trash for the conclusion of the first five year story. Yet, they did. I couldn`t believe Purgatory would be dropped like a hot potato with nothing coming from it. Yet, it was.

 

Like you, I could totally believe that the trials would only be going to Sam and noone but Sam. And they did. Then I couldn`t believe again, Demon!Dean was cast aside after three episodes and roughly maybe a combined 20 minutes of screentime which amounted to nothing. Again, happened. 

 

So why should I believe they will not follow their usual M.O. this time and just redo Suck Song with Sam in the Sam role and Dean in no role? Again. If he was a recently introduced tertiary character like Adam, he might have had a shot at a viable role in the Amara plot but as Dean? Ha.

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

 

“I gotta tell you, I would say maybe twice a year I’ll read a script and I’ll be like, ‘No, really they’re doing that? That’s awesome. This is fantastic. I love this show.’

 

from EW interview about how Misha prepared to play Lucifer.

 

Oh the shade, Misha. The SHADE! Ha! :) Dude's in how many episodes in a season? And only 1 or 2 stand out as worthy of praise? Hee!

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I won't count Soulless Sam's -- well, anything.  It's different from their actions.  A kill is a kill; an apology or thank you is meaningless if it doesn't come from the heart/soul.

 

Same with Demon Dean.  I doubt I'd have anything to count in that case, but I haven't watched those episodes enough to be sure.

 

Good call. As I said, I think I remember Soulless Sam saying "you're right, I shouldn't be - insert something Sam shouldn't be doing here - but blah blah blah" quite a few times and even including an apology or two, but after we learned he didn't have a soul, everything he said there would be suspect or, as you said, downright meaningless. He sure made it look good sometimes, though - the psycho asshat - but thankfully Dean was not fooled.

 

 

From Season 8? Being so horrible to poor Sam upon returning from Purgatory. Ruining Sam`s new life. The changed voice mail of doom. Lying about Benny. Dragging Sam back into things by the sheer power of existing. Being such a weak loser that Sam had to save and physically and emotionally take on the Trials. 

 

Not that I believe any of those things but IMO the narrative played like that. In the Finale, it kinda settled on the first one because Dean`s attitude apparently made Sam suicidal.

 

I never saw that, myself. It mostly looked to me like they were making Sam appear damaged, inconsistent, and completely unreasonable, especially because Dean was right about Benny, and later on Sam turned out to want to be a hunter anyway, so he just appeared in retrospect to be - well, inconsistent and confused.

 

I also didn't see Dean being shown as the "weak loser" either, since it was usually Sam in the damsel role that season (including for multiple guest characters,) and as Demented Daisy's stats showed, Dean did more solo killing - even not including purgatory - and saving in season 8, not Sam. Sam killed the hellhound by himself - that's it. Not showing Sam as all that impressive if you ask me, but miles vary.

 

Aside - True story: I got one of my online buddies into Supernatural recently, and after he got through most of season 8 over a holiday break, when we reconnected he asked me "Why did they turn Sam into a wimp?" I told him "You got me," because I had no good answer either.

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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

Interestingly, I didn't take that as shade.  I took it that it was a script that was ballsy and unexpected not that he was shading all the other scripts for the season.  Just that this was particularly outstanding and not just from the Castiel perspective. 

 

Oh, I doubt that Misha intended it to be criticism. I just found it unintentionally hilarious. Kind of backhanded compliment if you will. :D

Hana Chan

Hana Chan

(edited)

If this current season has proved anything it's that the writers are completely at a loss with what to do with Castiel and he should have been written out of the show ages ago. He's not bringing anything to the overall story and everything that the writers have tried since the Leviathan storyline to justify his continued presence has failed. His role in the angels storyline was a snore and grew increasingly pointless. Now they have him as Lucifer's vessel, again trying to shoehorn him in when there's no real organic reason. And I get the dubious pleasure of seeing Misha mugging and failing to capture the complex humor and majesty of Lucifer that both Mark and Jared were able to give him. Misha's acting just isn't up to the job and he made Lucifer a caricature.

 

Castiel might have served a purpose at one time, but that time is long past and I think that the writers should have let him go when he disappeared after releasing the Leviathans. Since then, he's been primary a tag along to the bigger storylines without contributing much. With all the good supporting characters the writers have killed off over the years, I would happily have kept any of them over Castiel at this stage.

Edited by Hana Chan
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ahrtee

ahrtee

This may be a truly UO, but I think what's happened to Castiel over the years is the fault of Destiel.  In an effort to downplay the "connection" between Dean and Cas while still keeping Misha as a fan-favorite cast member, they've tried first to separate him from Dean (taking on Leviathan, giving him more time/getting more of a connection with Sam), then gave him his own storyline--which, by all accounts, was a terrible failure, and proved that Cas by himself isn't nearly as interesting as Cas with the Winchesters; and now they've come up with Casifer in order to allow him to interact with Dean without the Destiel undertones.  I can't say it's a good idea, but at least it allows them to be in the same scenes without playing to the shippers (though, yes, they've certainly done enough over the years to encourage shipping to those who are looking for it).  I think maybe it was making the actors a little uncomfortable (or maybe it's just Carver), so they're trying to back away from it a little.  Of course, it's still not really working, because it was the Cas/Dean interaction that was most interesting to many people, not just their meatsuits (oops, I mean, just the actors themselves.) 

 

As full disclosure, I have to say I do not like Destiel; in fact, I don't ship anyone.  I like the boys on their own, and I honestly resent the way it seems that a very vocal part of the audience (don't know how large it is) can't allow friendship between *any* two (attractive) characters (male, female, or any combination) without wanting the relationship to be sexual.  Aren't people allowed to have friends any more?  On a deeper basis than just "hey, let's go out for a beer," kind of way, that is.  And the Winchesters in particular *need* friends they can talk to about their issues.  Even Dean, the master of denying feelings, had some issues that he couldn't handle on his own (going back to John's death).  They used Bobby as the family therapist for all those years (because I don't think *anyone* ships Dean/Bobby) and after that, the "safe" character of Charlie; but without them, there's no one.  (Even surrogate-mother-figure Ellen got shipped!)  

 

Cas, in particular, started out as more or less asexual--a totally clueless, truly "inhuman" being, who gradually became more humanized by his contact with the Winchesters.  I enjoyed watching his development, and watching Dean finally being able to trust someone other than family; and to me, Destiel just makes it less important as character development for both of them. 

 

Please don't flame me for my opinion.  I'm happy letting others believe whatever they want, but I truly dislike those people who insist that they're right and everyone else is either wrong or denying something, and I do think that played a major part in what's happened to Cas over the years, even though it's the writers/showrunner who did the actual damage (and so clumsily.)

  • Love 6
Laurencja

Laurencja

 

If this current season has proved anything it's that the writers are completely at a loss with what to do with Castiel and he should have been written out of the show ages ago. He's not bringing anything to the overall story and everything that the writers have tried since the Leviathan storyline to justify his continued presence has failed. His role in the angels storyline was a snore and grew increasingly pointless. Now they have him as Lucifer's vessel, again trying to shoehorn him in when there's no real organic reason. And I get the dubious pleasure of seeing Misha mugging and failing to capture the complex humor and majesty of Lucifer that both Mark and Jared were able to give him. Misha's acting just isn't up to the job and he made Lucifer a caricature.

 

Castiel might have served a purpose at one time, but that time is long past and I think that the writers should have let him go when he disappeared after releasing the Leviathans. Since then, he's been primary a tag along to the bigger storylines without contributing much. With all the good supporting characters the writers have killed off over the years, I would happily have kept any of them over Castiel at this stage.

 

I couldn't agree more.

Castiel is so stupid and pointless character. Yes, he was very interesting in 4, 5, 6 and 7 season. But later they should have let him go. After 7 season the character became useless and his storyline is just horrible.

Castiel is in the show only because of fans and it's sad :/ The show probably could be much better without him.

 

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Please don't flame me for my opinion.  I'm happy letting others believe whatever they want, but I truly dislike those people who insist that they're right and everyone else is either wrong or denying something, and I do think that played a major part in what's happened to Cas over the years, even though it's the writers/showrunner who did the actual damage (and so clumsily.)

 

We're pretty good about a free exchange of ideas.  I think the last thing most of us want is to become another tumblr.  ;-)

 

Love Cas.  Always have, always will, don't want him going anywhere.

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ahrtee

ahrtee

(edited)

We're pretty good about a free exchange of ideas.  I think the last thing most of us want is to become another tumblr.  ;-)

 

 

I appreciate that.  I don't read Tumblr at all, and have enough trouble with the Sam/Dean fighting.  I did get thoroughly flamed years ago on a supposedly "bi-bro" site for expressing an opinion (I thought politely) that was pro-Dean--flamed to the point that the moderator apologized to me via PM, but it kind of soured me on expressing UOs.

 

(edited to put my comment in the proper place instead of part of the quote...took a while to figure it out!)

Edited by ahrtee
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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

I don't "ship" any of the characters together, either.  But I don't have an issue at all with people fantasizing about their favorites.  Whether they see themselves with the character (or actor) in that fantasy, or see characters and/or actors together in relationships, fantasies can be fun, and even healthy.  But when those fantasies get confused with reality, and people insist on projecting their fantasies on the actors themselves, that's when it gets extremely uncomfortable for me.  I can only imagine how the actors feel.  I have read some pretty disturbing things said about their wives and children, and for me, that's crossing a line.  I guess it's all part of the social media word we live in now, but I don't see it as a good thing.

 

I know that Jensen has taken heat in the past because he was vocal about not liking Destiel, and evidently it caused quite a stir in the fan base.  Misha seems to play to those fans at conventions, so I get the whole "mixed message" problem.  It's one thing to tease and even play along with your fans in a good-natured way, but I'm not sure all of the fans understand that it's only playing.  

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amensisterfriend

amensisterfriend

I never shipped anyone either...except for MAYBE Dean/Bela for a very brief period of time and, oh god, did I just say that out loud? ;) Maybe if the show gave us more compelling, real, relatable female characters, I could have mustered up some affection for Lisa/Dean or even Sam/Jessica or some other people they've met along the way, but...no. 

 

Another UO: I know critics and many fans love S4 and S5, but I just don't enjoy them at all despite a few standout episodes and objectively seeing why others think they're quality seasons. Conversely, as more time has gone by, I've developed an inexplicably stronger affection for S6 and S7 despite objectively understanding why many don't like those seasons much at all. 

 

I have terrible taste :) 

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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

Amensisterfriend, I apparently have the same terrible taste, because I enjoy seasons 6 and 7, too.  When I watched the series for the first time, I enjoyed seasons 4 and 5 well enough, but I find that they're really not my "go to" seasons for re-watch.  There are certainly episodes I like from both seasons, but I just prefer others more.  Aside from the loss of Bobby, I think season 7 was actually pretty fun. And it introduced us to some great characters...Frank, Charlie, Kevin and Garth, all of whom I really enjoyed.

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catrox14

catrox14

I rewatch 1-5 to try figure out what Kripke ever really intended for Dean and to this day I cannot decide if Dean was ever TRULY part of the mytharc or if Kripke changed carts midstream with Point of No Return through Swan Song .  Either way, Swan Song remains my literal least favorite episode of the series because of how it all ended up. It's not the worst episode because that goes to Man's Best Friend with Benefits/Bloodlines but it is MY least favorite.

MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

I don't really have a huge problem with Swan Song.  It clearly was supposed to be the end, and I'm not sure how satisfying it would have been to have Dean and Sam face-off as Michael and Lucifer.  I wouldn't really have wanted to watch either one of them kill the other.  I don't really see how that could have gone down other than how it did.  Had they known sooner that the show was going to continue they might have done things differently, but as a stand-alone episode, I think it's pretty moving.  I love the Chuck voiceover parts, the whole Impala back story, etc.  It's not an episode I watch regularly because I find it depressing, but I don't hate it.

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catrox14

catrox14

It's not as though the brothers never beat the crap out of each other before. I would have been perfectly fine with Dean and Sam jumping into the pit together after fighting to a draw in their respective meatsuits. Castiel could have allied with Bobby, Rufus, Crowley and Death to get them out of Hell as a start to s6. 

 

I would have far preferred that than mopey Dean in his not particularly happy domestic life and soulless Sam. 

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

I rewatch 1-5 to try figure out what Kripke ever really intended for Dean and to this day I cannot decide if Dean was ever TRULY part of the mytharc or if Kripke changed carts midstream with Point of No Return through Swan Song

 

If not for the writer`s strike, Dean wouldn`t have gone to hell anyway and the mytharc would have been firmly solely revolving around Sam and noone but Sam and his powers. Dean would have just struggled with the same "save or kill" stuff and kept revolving around Sam. So, basically, Dean was never supposed to be in the story. We just got a lucky break.

 

Though I do believe if not for Season 6, Suck Song would have ended with both Dean and Sam falling into the hole. The dialogue between Michael and Lucifer was too reminiscent of the brother`s early Season 1 and 2 tiffs about John and Adam was an obvious replacement. Not that it wasn`t doubly insulting this way with the "you are no longer a part of this story, loser". In the end Kripke had his avatar save the day and the world by himself and I guess that was important to him. Why he needed the episode to spit in Dean`s face on top of things, I don`t know.

 

In terms of Seasons 6 and 7, overall I found nothing enjoyable in them as a Dean-fan. Season 6 had the soulless Sam pimping and then the arc went to Castiel. And Season 7 just had nothing. So these Seasons are non-starters for me.

 

Not that the Carver years are that much better though Dean nominally had a storyline in some parts. But it wasn`t played well so they don`t stand out either to me.

 

The only good Seasons of the show for me are 1, 2 and 4. Five is such a travesty with how it ended, it automatically gets low marks. Season 3 is an interesting case. I remember hating it when it first aired but in hindsight it`s probably not as bad as some of the later Season. There is just not anything to entice me to rewatch and check that hypothesis. 

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amensisterfriend

amensisterfriend

(edited)

Sam may be the technical focal point of more plotlines, but only because he's the problem child and screwup while Dean is the shining hero with every desirable character trait who bails his prideful brother out of various jams. So both brothers have been treated equally well or badly in my view, and I just try to enjoy the show for what it is despite its flaws.

I'm a sucker for anything about the soul---what happens when you don't have one, etc.---so S6 is up my alley even though I can admit that many of the ideas were better than the execution. But whenever I rewatch, I find myself surprised by how many more episodes I'd rather keep from seasons 6 and 7 than 4 and 5, which is obviously unpopular!

Edited by amensisterfriend
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MysteryGuest

MysteryGuest

As a Dean fan, the only storyline that really pissed me off was Demon Dean.  If they were going to go there, then I really wish they'd gone further.  I would have liked to have seen that storyline go on for at least 6 episodes or more.  Wrapping it up in 3, and playing a lot of it for comedy, didn't do it for me.  But other than that, I think the brothers have shared storylines throughout the series.  

 

I know that Jared has gotten to play more versions of Sam than Jensen has of Dean, but I think they've balanced it out in other ways.  Dean's had most of the time-travel episodes.  He's interacted more with most of the guest stars and even series regulars.  I think they both get equal screen time, in fact sometimes I think Jensen actually gets a bit more dialogue than Jared.  Maybe that's because I focus on him more, but it seems that way to me at times.  I honestly don't feel that Dean or Jensen have been cheated.  I think my only complaint is that the writing could be better across the board.  

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I didn't like the first half of S06; didn't like the Campbells or breaking up with Lisa that much. Parts of soulless!Sam I liked. And I adored the Alpha vamp; he oozed menace. But I liked the second half, and I really liked S07.

 

I feel exactly the same way about those seasons.

 

... But whenever I rewatch, I find myself surprised by how many more episodes I'd rather keep from seasons 6 and 7 than 4 and 5, which is obviously unpopular!

 

I actually really liked season 5, too, and for me personally, I liked seeing Sam's character progression and a turn-around from the almost season long secrets and lies plots of season 4. It just seemed a never-ending lie-fest, especially on Sam's part, but even sometimes with Dean as well. Sam being honest with Dean in season 5 was a nice change from all of that. I also really liked quite a few of the episodes, including and especially "The End" and "Point of No Return." However I entirely agree about season 4. There are a few great episodes there, but for the most part I would rather rewatch episodes from the second half of season 6 and 7 than season 4. I often find season 4 depressing in comparison.

  • Love 2
amensisterfriend

amensisterfriend

didn't like the first half of S06; didn't like the Campbells or breaking up with Lisa that much. Parts of soulless!Sam I liked. And I adored the Alpha vamp; he oozed menace.

 

So I do agree with this and think the Campbell stuff in general falls into that 'potentially fascinating in theory; generally flat and pointless in execution' category. That said, I have to admit that I do really like a lot of episodes that happen to fall into that first half of the season: Weekend At Bobby's is an all-time favorite of mine, I find Two and a Half Men far more endearing than I probably should, I adore You Can't Handle The Truth (I just love the premise and the whole idea of how brutal and amusing unfiltered honesty can be), Clap Your Hands If You Believe is the type of amusing, whimsical SPN episode that delights me, I think Appointment in Samarra is weirdly brilliant, and I even like Live Free or TwiHard way more than I should. (Thank god we have an unpopular opinion thread, as I probably couldn't confess all this elsewhere!)

 

I often find season 4 depressing in comparison.

 

So relentlessly bleak, IM(U)O that it ceased to even be entertaining. It's no coincidence that my favorite episode of S4, It's a Terrible Life, takes place in an alternate universe rather than the one in which the real SPN takes place! 

 

And as long as we're sharing our season-related UOs: I can never figure out whether it's unpopular to love S3, but I've always felt it's a surprisingly great and underrated season. 

 

 

As a Dean fan, the only storyline that really pissed me off was Demon Dean.  If they were going to go there, then I really wish they'd gone further.  I would have liked to have seen that storyline go on for at least 6 episodes or more.  Wrapping it up in 3, and playing a lot of it for comedy, didn't do it for me.  But other than that, I think the brothers have shared storylines throughout the series. 

I know that Jared has gotten to play more versions of Sam than Jensen has of Dean, but I think they've balanced it out in other ways.  Dean's had most of the time-travel episodes.  He's interacted more with most of the guest stars and even series regulars.  I think they both get equal screen time, in fact sometimes I think Jensen actually gets a bit more dialogue than Jared.  Maybe that's because I focus on him more, but it seems that way to me at times.  I honestly don't feel that Dean or Jensen have been cheated.  I think my only complaint is that the writing could be better across the board.

 

This post made my day! You're awesome :) 

  • Love 1
DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

And as long as we're sharing our season-related UOs: I can never figure out whether it's unpopular to love S3, but I've always felt it's a surprisingly great and underrated season. 

 

S3 is a bit of a weird one for me. When watching it the first time, I was rather meh on almost all of it, but now, I love so much about this season and have a hard time skipping any of the episodes, even Red Sky at Morning. I have no idea why this happened other than perhaps I loved S2 so much I just had really high expectations for S3 that kinda tainted it for me the first time? Maybe I've adjusted my expectations and can just enjoy it for what it actually is?

 

I keep hoping something like this will happen to me with the Carver years...

  • Love 1
NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

We're pretty good about a free exchange of ideas.  I think the last thing most of us want is to become another tumblr.  ;-)

 

Love Cas.  Always have, always will, don't want him going anywhere.

 

I love Cas but I've not been a fan of the material the character has been given for a while now. Much as I love Misha/Cas, if TPTB don't have a decent story for him, they should let him go. Keeping him on and giving him shit to work with isn't helping anyone, IMO. Many Cas fans are frustrated with the crap material he's given and the rabid 'brothers only!' fans have wanted Cas out of the picture forever.

 

I would love to know if the Destiel theory floated up-thread has merit. I love(d) the Dean/Cas relationship because Dean finally had someone looking out for him (IMO); their relationship showed me a different side of Dean. I didn't (and don't) need their relationship to go romantic...I just miss their interactions something fierce. Someone on Tumblr did a rough count of scenes with Dean/Cas over the seasons and the number has been in free-fall for years. (and is likely why I stopped watching the show, with rare episode exceptions). I find the theory that the Destiel phenomenon could be to blame very intriguing.

 

The main problem I see is that TPTB want to have their cake and eat it too. They want the Misha fans to tune in without losing the 'brothers only!' fans. As a result, they've kept Misha on - but removed as much as possible from the boys, and it just doesn't work, IMO. The B-plots are often crappy and any time spent away from the boys is poorly received by a segment of the fandom anyway, so Castiel - and Misha - are doubly fucked.

 

I was glad that Jensen recently pointed out that Misha has taken a load of his and Jared's shoulders by being on the show the last x years. I've often felt that those who want The Dean and Sam Show fail to realize what a toll that must take on Jensen and Jared. It always struck me as incredibly selfish.

  • Love 2
ahrtee

ahrtee

 

I would love to know if the Destiel theory floated up-thread has merit. I love(d) the Dean/Cas relationship because Dean finally had someone looking out for him (IMO); their relationship showed me a different side of Dean. I didn't (and don't) need their relationship to go romantic...I just miss their interactions something fierce. Someone on Tumblr did a rough count of scenes with Dean/Cas over the seasons and the number has been in free-fall for years. (and is likely why I stopped watching the show, with rare episode exceptions). I find the theory that the Destiel phenomenon could be to blame very intriguing.

 

The main problem I see is that TPTB want to have their cake and eat it too. They want the Misha fans to tune in without losing the 'brothers only!' fans. As a result, they've kept Misha on - but removed as much as possible from the boys, and it just doesn't work, IMO. The B-plots are often crappy and any time spent away from the boys is poorly received by a segment of the fandom anyway, so Castiel - and Misha - are doubly fucked.

 

 

Well, since I'm the one who floated the theory (I think), maybe I should explain my thoughts?  ...It was because after a while, it seemed that virtually *all* the Cas/Dean interactions were being scrutinized for Destiel in the forums (and I'm not counting Tumblr, because no, I've never read it.)  People seemed to be discussing the subtext more than the text, not only in deep emotional scenes but also the casual, supposedly humorous ones.  And yes, the writers were definitely playing into it.  But my point is that the ones discussing the undertones weren't only Destiel shippers.  Hell, even *I* could see some of it, and I hate it.  But  I never really saw many complaints from the "brothers-only" fans--at least, not on the sites I read, so I don't know how big a part they played in the decision to downplay Cas/Dean.  

 

But I think that maybe, if even general viewers were looking for/seeing Destiel any time Dean and Cas got together, then TPTB might have thought it was time to back off, for whatever reason--discomfort from actors/producers, fear of backlash from non-Destiel fans, or not wanting to take a stance one way or another that might alienate whole groups of fans.  So that's when they stopped having private interactions, and began to have their own (separate) story lines; and only got to hang out together when others were involved, like Sam and Charlie, or when they're not themselves. 

 

And yes, I agree that TPTB want to keep Misha on for his fans, and they're trying to find a way to balance the different factions without alienating any of them, which is why it hasn't worked.  Someone is always going to be angry, so maybe they should just write him well and how they want him to interact, and let others make their own interpretations.  

 

Like you, I very much miss the Dean/Cas interactions, because they really were the only times Dean could express his fears/doubts/sadness without feeling like he was giving up his macho image.    Also, he needed Cas's perspective, and his ability to get behind Dean's masks and bull; that's not to say that Sam can't, too, but it was/is easier for Dean to accept it from Cas than his little brother, no matter how grown up.  

  • Love 1
NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

Well, since I'm the one who floated the theory (I think), maybe I should explain my thoughts?  ...It was because after a while, it seemed that virtually *all* the Cas/Dean interactions were being scrutinized for Destiel in the forums (and I'm not counting Tumblr, because no, I've never read it.)  People seemed to be discussing the subtext more than the text, not only in deep emotional scenes but also the casual, supposedly humorous ones.  And yes, the writers were definitely playing into it.  But my point is that the ones discussing the undertones weren't only Destiel shippers.  Hell, even *I* could see some of it, and I hate it.  But  I never really saw many complaints from the "brothers-only" fans--at least, not on the sites I read, so I don't know how big a part they played in the decision to downplay Cas/Dean.  

 

But I think that maybe, if even general viewers were looking for/seeing Destiel any time Dean and Cas got together, then TPTB might have thought it was time to back off, for whatever reason--discomfort from actors/producers, fear of backlash from non-Destiel fans, or not wanting to take a stance one way or another that might alienate whole groups of fans.  So that's when they stopped having private interactions, and began to have their own (separate) story lines; and only got to hang out together when others were involved, like Sam and Charlie, or when they're not themselves. 

 

And yes, I agree that TPTB want to keep Misha on for his fans, and they're trying to find a way to balance the different factions without alienating any of them, which is why it hasn't worked.  Someone is always going to be angry, so maybe they should just write him well and how they want him to interact, and let others make their own interpretations.  

 

Like you, I very much miss the Dean/Cas interactions, because they really were the only times Dean could express his fears/doubts/sadness without feeling like he was giving up his macho image.    Also, he needed Cas's perspective, and his ability to get behind Dean's masks and bull; that's not to say that Sam can't, too, but it was/is easier for Dean to accept it from Cas than his little brother, no matter how grown up.  

 

I don't think you needed to clarify your theory; I felt it was clear the first time. :)

 

Since TPTB have killed off pretty much every other character which orbits the boys, I can only assume that Cas/Misha is very popular since he's stuck around (or been brought back after they'd killed him). Problem is, IMO, part of why Cas is/was so popular was due to his interactions with Dean (and to a lesser extent, Sam). I love the Sam/Cas friendship and was happy to see that develop a little more in the recent seasons. But Dean/Cas has been mostly dropped and that really saddens me.

 

While "Team Free Will" was only mentioned waaay back in S4 (?), I loved it. And I've clung to it because I always thought it was a beautiful thing that this angel threw his lot in with these flawed boys...and that they ended up including him in their family circle because his loyalty deserved theirs. I just find it incredibly touching. Sam gets a friend/brother with whom he can nerd out about lore and whatnot (or bitch about Dean :)); Dean has both an advisor and friend to whom he can admit his fears and vulnerabilities without burdening his little brother; and Cas gets a family which actually gives a fuck about him. Wins all around, IMO.

 

Despite any issues I have with this season, I am heartened by the boys' (specifically Dean's) very clear desire - and priority - to "save Cas". I'm curious to see how it all shakes out.

  • Love 2
SueB

SueB

(edited)

My unsolicited 2 cents:

- Cas & Dean's relationship SHOULD be fantastic. In the past, when they've had scenes together it's so compelling.

- TPTB will NEVER make the relationship romantic from a canon perspective. It has nothing to do with "queer erasure", "homophobia", "anti-bi", or anything else. The story is about two brothers. Pair one of them up romantically with the third major player and you've changed the show dynamic. They can't even pair up one of the two with a tangential character for a long-term on-screen relationship.  It simply doesn't fit their framework.

- A romance between Cas and Dean would be legendary. Fantastic. Awesomesauce.  But that's not this show.

- I am not REMOTELY bi-bro.  (Bi-bro definition for me is people who ONLY watch for Sam and Dean and are resentful of anything that is not directly involving those two). The story NEEDS a little more breadth IMO, and the actors certainly can't keep up the pace if it was just those two. I stopped listening to a particular podcast when I realized that they couldn't give an unbiased review. 

- The amount of fandom wank on these topics is staggering.

 

Now let me piss off some people:

- IMO TPTB owe no-one anything except a fitting ending for the show WHEN that time comes.  They don't owe the bi-bro fans a damn thing. They don't owe the "Destiel should be canon" fans a damn thing.  If they write entertaining stories, we will watch.  If they don't, then it's a personal choice to keep watching. It's sort of like the concept of "sunk funds". Sure, you may have sunk a great deal of time in the show, but if you have a particular POV on a story line, there's no reason to expect a payoff in the way you want it.  You don't control it. OTOH, feel free to scream and rant about it when it pisses you off.  That's part of the fun IMO. Just don't expect anyone to respond to your criticism. 

- The advertising dollars DON'T cover the production costs. It's in the Netflix deals, the BluRays, the iTunes. And it's an international phenomenon, not just about the U.S..  Yes, fans keep the show on the air, but no individual fan or fan-faction is singularly responsible for the show's continued existence.  If anything, I'd say it's the new Netflix or binge viewers who are keeping it alive. 

- There are very generous and caring fans out there. There are fans who act in a reprehensible fashion.  There are extreme fans of any particular viewpoint who are in the latter category. I generally ignore those who do that and avoid wank to the maximum extent possible. I wish it would stop.

 

Do I think the outcry of "queer-baiting" caused changes in Cas' story line? Sadly, yes. Do I understand why fans feel that way? Yes, it's fairly obvious and it's a legit POV.  I just don't like what it's done to Cas' story.  But I also understand why TPTB feel they have to do something. I would have thought Fan Fiction was definitive but instead it's still an interpretive dance for many.  So what else are they going to do? They aren't going to make Destiel a canon romance. They want Cas on the show (because he IS a great character and often provides much delight).  Do I want Cas to get more time with the boys and a better story? Hell yes. I'm hoping that we'll get more clarity on his story in the future.  And I adore Misha Collins.  I'm fairly certain he is one of the kindest souls in the universe. 

 

Unlike others, I have no desire for Cas to be written off.  Heaven is a mess. I'm hoping that eventually they'll get an arc together where he's reconciled to Heaven and yet comfortable hanging out on Earth.  That's where he needs to be IMO. 

 

Oh, and Crowley?  LOVE HIM.  Legit, LOVE HIM.  I know he's evil. I'm unabashedly a fan.  I generally am a sucker for anyone who "just WANTS TO BE LOVED."

Edited by SueB
  • Love 5
7kstar

7kstar

The artist in me, the actor in me and the writer in me, knows it doesn't matter what the fans want.  You'll never make every fan happy.  The actor has to act, the writer has to write and they care about playing in the acting sandbox.  I don't know if those that get paid to act all the time, care about characters the same...as the fans do.  It might be funny to find out what shows they get so attached to, if they do...

 

I want a good story.  I care about the characters, so will I complain about certain things, of course.  But in the end it only matters how long those involved want and can keep this show on the air. 

 

I'm sad that Cas and Dean's story got shelved due to some fans complaints but I hope that we'll get some more good moments before it is over.

 

In the end, I watch because something draws me in.  If I really, really hated it...I wouldn't be here.  :)

  • Love 1
Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

- I am not REMOTELY bi-bro.  (Bi-bro definition for me is people who ONLY watch for Sam and Dean and are resentful of anything that is not directly involving those two). 

 

Just wanted to say that this is definitely not what I mean when I call myself bi-bro.  Love Sam, love Dean, love Cas.  Love the various and sundry additional cast.  Except Crowley.  Crowley still needs to die.

 

I refer to myself as bi-bro because, despite slightly preferring Dean, I am not a Dean-girl.  Or a Sam-girl.  Or a Cas-girl.  I am fully on Team Free Will, always have been. I love the dynamic between the three characters.  At the same time, I am incredibly annoyed with the number of characters that Carver has killed.  He's added a few, but only one (Donna) is still around.  (You could argue Claire and Alex, but I doubt they'll ever be in the Winchesters' rolodex of hunters.  Not even sure they'll ever be on the show again.)

 

Basically, I'm bi-bro, but not like your description.

  • Love 3
NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

My unsolicited 2 cents:

- Cas & Dean's relationship SHOULD be fantastic. In the past, when they've had scenes together it's so compelling.

- TPTB will NEVER make the relationship romantic from a canon perspective. It has nothing to do with "queer erasure", "homophobia", "anti-bi", or anything else. The story is about two brothers. Pair one of them up romantically with the third major player and you've changed the show dynamic. They can't even pair up one of the two with a tangential character for a long-term on-screen relationship.  It simply doesn't fit their framework.

- A romance between Cas and Dean would be legendary. Fantastic. Awesomesauce.  But that's not this show.

 

I find the explosion of fan/TPTB interaction via social media and whatnot has kind of hurt shows these days.

 

In the past, people watched a show and took it as it came. If something really ground your gears, you wrote a letter or something. There weren't online spoilers to rile people up about what might happen or what will happen etc. There is a great deal of entitlement out there and it is staggering to me. Since when do showrunners have to go public and spoil where they're taking the story and characters? For instance: what if, somewhere down deep, TPTB decide to end SPN with canon romantic Destiel (IMO not a shot in hell but bear with me)? Why should they have to reassure or anger fans of the endgame NOW? That's not fair to anyone.

 

There are no guarantees with how a story will play out. You may be disappointed at what happens. And that happens all the time. That's the nature of watching a show. Shit may not go your way. But, at the risk of being "that person", it's just a television show.

 

I grew tired of the SPN narrative and as Cas got sidelined away from the boys, my interest waned and I basically tuned out. When I see that an ep featured the three of them or seemed entertaining, I might check it out. Otherwise? Meh. I don't go online to vent and rant and rail at TPTB or the actors. I don't think TPTB have to write the story I want to see. It seems obvious to me that if you don't like what you're seeing, you stop watching. I used to do that 'hate watch' thing with shows in the past and it's only been in the last couple years that I thought "what the fuck am I doing? Life's too short to waste on watching shit that doesn't entertain me." So, I stopped watching lots of shows (much to my husband's disappointment). But you know what? I'm so much happier. Life's stressful enough without adding disappointing entertainment to the mix.

 

That said, I do appreciate that the whole Dean/Cas business is wrapped up in volatile 'representation' and queerbaiting issues, so the usual rules/responses maybe don't apply. TPTB did rather shoot themselves in the foot with early Dean/Cas with some of the more loaded dialogue and whatnot. So now every single minute thing is dissected and meta'd and it's just a mess. I loved be-spelled Cas and how caring and protective Dean (and Sam) were towards him. I love seeing their love for each other. Family don't end in blood and there's all types of family. Sadly, many fans seem to forget that. When I see some of the nasty fan behaviour online, I want to torch the internet... ;) 

  • Love 2
DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

- I am not REMOTELY bi-bro.  (Bi-bro definition for me is people who ONLY watch for Sam and Dean and are resentful of anything that is not directly involving those two). The story NEEDS a little more breadth IMO, and the actors certainly can't keep up the pace if it was just those two. I stopped listening to a particular podcast when I realized that they couldn't give an unbiased review. 

 

Oh, I guess I have to stop calling myself bi-bro? I always thought what you described as bi-bro was bros-only. Yeah, I only mean, I don't have a favorite brother and watch this show for all the characters. Even Crowley, who I can't wait to see the boys stab in the neck when the show finally comes to an end. I definitely think they need to expand the scope of the show past just Sam and Dean--if for nothing else than to give Jared and Jensen a break every now and again--but I also think it would open up the show to better storytelling. 

 

I kinda wish TPTB would just ignore the different factions and just tell the story. I agree they owe no one fan-sect anything and I think TPTB need to realize that. Always bending to try and please everyone usually only leads to uninspired and unfocused nonsense. Which...yeah, enough said.

  • Love 4
Omegamom

Omegamom

Yeah, I was really irritated to discover that in the wider fandom wank, "bi-bro" means something entirely different. It should be "bro-only" or something like that. Harrumph. Speaking of "bitter"... Anyway, I use it like Ditty and Demented do: I am a fan of both bros, not one over the other.

TPTB went overboard in S08 with Cas and Dean, and I guess the reaction made them abruptly rein the whole thing waaaay back. Pity. I enjoy Cas's interactions with Dean.

Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

TPTB went overboard in S08 with Cas and Dean, and I guess the reaction made them abruptly rein the whole thing waaaay back. Pity. I enjoy Cas's interactions with Dean.

 

 

Perception is so funny.  I've never thought TPTB went overboard with Dean and Cas.  Certain fans went overboard (as they tend to do), but I fully agree with Ditty:

 

 

 

I kinda wish TPTB would just ignore the different factions and just tell the story. I agree they owe no one fan-sect anything and I think TPTB need to realize that. Always bending to try and please everyone usually only leads to uninspired and unfocused nonsense. Which...yeah, enough said.

  • Love 1
Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

Yeah, I was really irritated to discover that in the wider fandom wank, "bi-bro" means something entirely different.

 

On tumblr it basically means "Becky" aka a Sam-stan who couldn`t care less about Dean as an individual. Maybe it could be "Bullshit-Bi-Bro" or something.  .

 

 

But in the end it only matters how long those involved want and can keep this show on the air.

 

Which admittedly does only happen if the show appeals to enough people. I get not catering to fans too much but no studio gives producers/shworunners money to do nothing but their personal vanity project, they expect them to produce a mass appeal project for others. Ot get out and raise their own money for nothing but their own vanity project. That`s why sometimes even positive studio interference happens. When even the suits notice something is apparently popular and works for the audience have to give a note to the writers to capitalize on it, then they are doing the showrunners job IMO. 

 

I`m also careful with the "give them what they need, not what they want" motto that writers seem so fond of if it becomes just a convenient excuse for endless c-blocking. 

 

The in-show response to the whole Dean/Castiel thing was just mishandled. Yes, some responses to the pairing were overzealous to say the least. But so what? They had good scenes that viewers apparently liked. Who cares if they saw more in those scenes as long as the scenes were well-received? Nope, we had to have the gay panic again where the characters suddenly don`t have screentime anymore but every once in a blue moon they get a big slashy scene where the characters act like they were still the same close friends they were initially played as. Only now those scenes look grotesque.

 

I was an avid watcher of BBC`s Merlin and that was years of "yes-no-yes-no-yes-no" till it culminated in a "fuck everything, this is the Series Finale and we`re writing a love story between the main characters". What is this, the TV show version of prank buzzing?     

NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

TPTB went overboard in S08 with Cas and Dean, and I guess the reaction made them abruptly rein the whole thing waaaay back. Pity. I enjoy Cas's interactions with Dean.

 

Having Dean and Cas in the same scene causes waves. Any moment of tenderness and caring between them is bound to draw multiple interpretations. I just enjoy(ed) them without trying to label it. It was only after their Purgatory reunion that I tripped over the “Romantic Destiel” phenomenon online (sue me, I wanted to see the hug again ;)) and was fucking floored. I don’t usually critically watch things, so I was amazed at the level of analysis. Some was very compelling; others were, IMO, reaching far too much.

 

Jensen and Misha have crazy-good chemistry (IMO), and there is no concrete barrier to prevent the characters from being involved romantically. I understand why so many people believe or expect that Dean/Cas will go canon romantically; TPTB have, whether intentionally or not, used tons of tropes with them which are usually only used for couples. So I don't blame people for believing the show is heading towards it; I'm just cynical enough to not believe for a minute that it will actually happen.

 

Of course they don’t have to put the characters into a romantic relationship, but I can sympathize with those who are asking “but why not?” If Cas were in a female vessel, would the resistance from TPTB be the same? I’d argue no. And that CW dude who spoke on the “Destiel” situation a year or so ago shot himself right in the foot when he made a very heteronormative comment, which understandably pissed people off something fierce.

 

I am a fan of Dean and Cas' relationship and greatly miss it. I guess I'd be considered a moderate Destiel fan? I would not be shocked or appalled if it developed into a romantic pairing but neither will I burn down the city if they stay as family. ;)

 

Anyway, long story short, I really wish we’d get back to Dean, Cas and Sam working together as a team and damn the extremists... :D

Edited by NoWillToResist

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