Supernatural Bitterness & Unpopular Opinions: You All Suck

catrox14 · February 5, 2016

The following is my attempt to explain why I'm consistently frustrated with Dean's trajectory on the show especially with s11 and my ultimate disapointment with MoC SL. I'm not trying to engage into vs thing but I can't not mention Sam because it's tied to Dean, you know?

It's like they tease me with a mytharc and then pull the rug out from under me.

I think back to the interviews Jensen gave at comic-con and answers to questions at SPN cons about s11 and IMO it was clear to me anyway based on his comments, and I'm paraphrasing, the gist was "it's back to s1 with Dean driving and bailing out his brother" and some nebulous connection with The Darkness. Contrast that with his clear excitement of demon!Dean but then he's having to still create buzz when he already knew that the demon!Dean arc was over before it began. Combine that with Jared's excitement and references to s4/s5 signaled that Sam would have the action/active/mytharc again which gave me some hope that maybe we'd also get a visit back to Dean and Michael. But nope, not so far.

Jensen's is a smart man and he'll never actively undermine buzz for a new season so he spun it as something positive for Dean for s11. Jensen says he loves the action and fighting and I believe 100% that is true because it's fun for him, but I really don't believe that he's fine with Jared having all the emotional stuff because then he's cutting his own throat for future roles. I can see him saying he "prefers them over emotional things" because maybe he's angling for an action role or just wants to have fun for awhile. I also think there was shade about what was happening with Dean in those comments. That's JMO based on interviews and con videos.

I think he was legit happy about Baby and the fighting and the driving because he was doing something besides staring off into space because a baby, a teenager and a grown woman has control over him which is where my problem with Dean's role in s11 is so unsatisfying.

IMO in s11 Dean is basically in a passive-reactive role because I personally don't consider Dean having an uncontrollable and nebulous attachment to Amara where he lacks agency to be 'action' plot line.

Dean has not had any real agency since he took on the Mark. The Mark turned him into a mass murderer. He had some weird ironic agency as a demon but that was still predicated on his killing so he doesn't die. He didn't choose to become a demon but he made choices once he was a demon that was of his own volition as a demon. Then he didn't want to become a human again, but Sam and Cas turned him back anyway. But he still had no real agency because the Mark was still affecting him and driving him to kill and in the end, once more against his wishes, the Mark was removed and yet he's STILL being controlled by it because of Amara....

In retrospect, I'm not so sure that Dean's MoC SL was ever really even about Dean at all now since Sam's trajectory is what has bookended the MoC SL and for Cas to have something to do. Someone please tell me what we've learned about Dean that we didn't already know. or how it's changed Dean for the better? I don't get it. I truly don't. I'm starting to think Dean's MoC SL was created in order to rebuild Sam's character after s8.

It's frustrating because even if I say OKAY this is Dean's arc, I'm failing to see what it's doing for him as a character. to this point.

I keep thinking, if this was happening for so long to a female character I think we'd be disgusted with it. But for some reason because it's Dean....it's not a problem or something. I mean there could be a shitload explored with a male character who has lost agency and is not able to fight it and who is getting literally nothing back from that relationship, that we know of. We got something with Dean talking to Casifer about it, but again, IMO not sufficent and even Jensen's brilliant acting wasn't enough to cover it.

When is the shoe going to drop about WHY Dean didn't answer his phone before Sam raced off to Hell. Surely at some point that will come up, no? I suspect that moment will be when Dean either benches himself or Sam does. And that pisses me off.

I will be less than satisfied if Dean is unable to fix himself or free himself of Amara's hold. He made one shitty decision to do something in a moment of frailty and desperation born of guilt when he said yes to the MoC. He was actively trying to fix something he broke and picked the wrong fucking way to do it. And he's paid the price for 3 years, yet the point seems to have been to give Sam redemption and Cas purpose.

I just don't understand it.

AwesomO4000 · February 5, 2016

And after Purgatory was dropped as it related to Dean as early as episode 2, after that it became the mystery of Cas storyline, Dean only got a story halfway point in Season 9. That is also 1 and a half years of Carvernatural for me where I felt permanently smacked in the face.

Half of the mystery of Cas storyline was about Dean, in my opinion. It was one of those "emotional" storylines (but then again so was the horrid Amelia storyline), but it was related to Dean in that it was learned that Dean changed the history of how Castiel got left behind in purgatory, and there was an emotional payoff/conclusion to that storyline. Similar with Benny, and considering purgatory was brought up again in season 10 with Dean revisiting it and his feelings about it, in my opinion that was supposed to have some sort of significance. Now whether the writers succeeded is another story, but I think the idea was there.

In hindsight, they did little really with the Mark of Cain storyline. In the end, did it have any more of a purpose than the trials narratively?

Yes, because Dean killed Abaddon, fought Metatron, killed a bunch of other baddies, became a demon, etc., and it's linked to the darkness which still hasn't concluded yet. It wasn't like with the trials where Sam killed nothing on his own except the hellhound, didn't complete any of the other two trials on his own, and then became a pawn in Dean's and Gadreel's storylines while the trials were only brought up as an example of Sam's failures, but otherwise didn't change anything at all in the verse. It could literally be discarded and change nothing except Sam being comatose (maybe Crowley's human blood addiction storyline, but that's barely worth mentioning) Sam being comatose could've happened by Sam getting hit by a truck with the same result. Even's Cas's storyline was much more world-changing, because that's where the fallen angels came from. Even storywise, there was little. There were 10 total episodes in the trial storyline arc, including the hellhound episode, and enough of those didn't have much to do with the trials arc, and the Angel tablet episode was more about Castiel and Dean and their connection and to further the Castiel storyline which was also going on and which started earlier in the season. So no, I don't think the mark of Cain and the trial storylines are in any way equivalent. One influenced the story for the next two seasons so far and counting, while the other was over in less than a half a season and had no effect at all on what came after.

And if you want to talk about "background noise", Sam was background noise - often literally in that he was pushed into the background by Gadreel - for much of what happened in season 9. He had one kill of his own (in an episode plot to further Dean's storyline and so he could tell Dean that Dean was right) and two shared kills the entire season. And I wouldn't even care about that, but unlike Dean in the second half of season 8, Sam couldn't even have a supportive role while being background noise. Nope, he had to bitch and throw snits and be a "crappy brother", so that Dean would be hurt and go do something rash. And worse, Sam didn't even get to hold to his crappy principals. He was made to say "I lied" and prove again that Dean was right and so all of the crappy things Sam said were just him being unsupportive and a failure as a brother - just like season 8 - with the added benefit that Sam couldn't even be there for his brother in the big fight and had to watch Dean die, again, because he couldn't save him, again.

This year`s mid-Season Finale focused heavily on Sam and his Lucifer connection.

And concluded with Casifer - pretty much downgrading the Lucifer/Sam connection since apparently Castiel will do just fine now that Sam's done his job as dupe and given Lucifer Cas who might be even better since now Lucifer can work on Dean who could be his "bait" - and Sam's apology which I personally liked, but I wouldn't call it an epic win per se. It's pretty much the emotional stuff that you generally hate anyway.

Dean was a footnote storywise in the Opener. Last Season`s mid-Season Finale when Dean had the mytharc and the promos made it sound as if, gosh golly, the mid-Season duo episode would thusly focus on him, what happened? It was about Claire. And Cas. The year before that was the Gadreel reveal and again, Dean was a completely pointless side character there.

Have any of the midseason finales really been mytharc heavy? The season 9 one coming back was when Dean got the mark of Cain which was a pretty important episode for his arc, in my opinion anyway. Once we had the Gadreel reveal, Sam's "part" - what little there was and it wasn't much - in the arc was pretty much over. Well, except for the bitching.

I just can`t take another Finale like the Season 5 one. Unless they give me a time machine so I can go back and stop me from watching this show in the first place.

For me the season 9 finale wasn't much better for Sam. He didn't even get to be supportive before he failed to do anything at all.

Even if I thought Dean didn`t have those screw-ups, it wouldn`t even out for me. But since IMO the show manages to pin all the other character`s screw-ups on Dean in the end - they wouldn`t have done bla bla, if he hadn`t done so and so or if he had been more supportive or if he hadn`t been mean to them first -, it`s just a hypothetical question for me.

I've never seen this, myself - especially Castiel. There's never been even a hit that Castiel's mistakes were Dean's fault in any way that I've seen anyway. And narratively, no one has said that anyone but Sam started the apocalypse since early season 5, and that's never been disputed on screen by any character since, so I'm not sure how the narrative supports this when it's been generally shown otherwise. In my opinion, not even the one episode out of over 100 that this "blame" supposedly came from actually said that. It's an interpretation, from statements by a potentially questionable narrator, and every other episode that it's been mentioned in since contradicts that interpretation. And I also never saw even a hint that Sam's mistakes in season 10 were somehow Dean's fault. The narrative went out of it's way to show that Dean did everything in his power for Sam (and Castiel) not to make that mistake. So I guess I just don't see the evidence of Dean being blamed narratively for all of the other characters' mistakes. It usually goes out of the way to make sure it's shown not to be Dean's fault (season 4, season 6, season 8, season 10).

Also the little victories Dean HAS gotten are either completely ignored later on or suddenly turn into "we" stuff. As do the screw-ups. It`s "we released the Darkness". If you ask Amara, it`s only Dean really.

I thought Sam was pretty clear that it was his fault - the apocalypse ("I let him out...") and the Darkness. Amara isn't a reliable narrator, especially since she doesn't even know how she was released. She just knows she's connected to Dean, because he had the mark, so therefor in her mind, it must be him.

And in my opinion, if Sam's "victories" are brought up, it's usually to give him a "pep talk" because he's likely messed up and needs it. But I sometimes appreciate it anyway, because at least as often his failures are thrown back at him, too so sometimes it's nice to hear the positive stuff.

There was a scene in Season I-don`t-even-know-anymore where Crowley ranted about the Winchesters and as a reason listed all the big kills SAM had made. And that was shortly after Eve (so probably Season 6). Not one of Dean`s "wins" made it in.

I know the episode well, because I love the second half of season 6, and I'm positive Azazel was on the list. Eve on the list would've been somewhat redundant, because Crowley was right there with her body, and he'd just mentioned a minute earlier that the Winchesters had killed her, twice actually. It was the reason that he was ranting in the first place.

I believe the writers are subpar but even they know that "tell" always sticks more with viewers than "show". Take the intelligence issue. Sam went to College and is always acknowledged as the book smart one so really he can have blunders every other episode and most viewers will still readily believe him to be a genius. Because that is what is verbalized to them.

I actually disagree with this premise. I'm a very visual person, and I believe what I see. I'm not going to believe that the writers think Dean isn't smart if they consistently show me him doing smart things. If a narrator tells me that the sky is green, but I can see that it is blue, I'm pretty much going to see it as blue and think that maybe the narrator is color blind and doesn't know what he/she is talking about. Just as I'm not going to believe it if a tertiary character says Dean isn't intelligent if Dean then gets the better of that character during the episode. I'm going to think that Dean is in fact smart, and that the tertiary character is either letting his/her opinion color his/her judgement or just doesn't know what the heck he/she is talking about, and is more than likely - especially if he/she is a demon - dead, and therefore his/her opinion doesn't count anymore anyway, because, well... dead, so obviously incorrect about his/her assessment of Dean's intelligence. And if it's Sam who's saying Dean isn't smart - well...considering Sam's recent track record, no matter how much I like Sam, I'm not going to believe him either, because well, if Dean was right, how can you argue with that?

Besides as I said in the episode thread, I've never gotten the vibe from the show that the writers in charge think too highly of formal education. In general, I've often seen the opposite. Many professors in show are portrayed as either ignorant of what is going on, or arrogant douchebags (Tall Tales), or part of the bad guys (Scarecrow), or even actually a monster (Eleanor, who even though she was an ally, wasn't exactly good.)

The writers aren`t entirely stupid. They do that on purpose. With Sam, I think it`s more that their pimping backfires too often. It`s not that they want to make him look bad but quite the opposite, they just fail at it.

There are enough things that I don't think most people could interpret as pimping - even failed pimping - that I don't agree with this premise either. If the writers supposedly "fail" at things enough times, I'm going to see it as an "on purpose." Season 4 is a good example. (I think a narrative where Dean says "Sam don't do this" a bunch of times, and Sam not only does it anyway, but is harsh to Dean about it, and then everything goes south - to me - pretty much hits me over the head with Sam was wrong to do this.) So is much of season 8. Sorry. I don't think anyone can convince me that Sam willfully abandoning Kevin was supposed to be seen in a positive light, especially when we have a contrasting story where Dean so vividly fights all odds, potentially sacrificing his own safety, to find Castiel. It's not going to work. No amount of "tell" is going to take away that contrasting evidence for me. Am I supposed to believe Dean was supposed to just go with Benny right off and abandon Castiel and that would've been the mature thing to do? Sorry not buying it. They can "tell" me all they want. The evidence showed me otherwise.

And my next favorite there's no way they could mean that in a positive light was Garth's introduction of Sam to his wife: (paraphrase) "And Sam. Sam can be a bit insecure at times, but for good reason. Bless his heart." Translation: "Poor Sam means well, but he's pretty much a screw up." And this was just before Sam had to be saved by Jodi and Dean, I think, and an episode before The Purge where we get Sam in a bad light, so I'm doubting there was an attempt at pimping here and it just failed. And did I mention that I dislike most of the second half of season 9?

I know this all sounds very negative and bitter, but most of my complaint here comes from the Carver era. I actually thought the show up until that point was fairly balanced in the brothers' portrayal and in showing them in a positive light. Also I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here, so my examples might be a little more extreme than my overall impression.

Aeryn13 · February 5, 2016

I know this all sounds very negative and bitter,

Heh, if not in this thread then where? :) And the feeling of bitterness is probably the one thing we can agree on, even if we are bitter over completely different things.

As for feeling the show was balanced, there was never really a time when I did. Other than Season 4 while it was airing. In hindsight, I don`t feel that way anymore but back then, yes. Now it`s a continuous circle of "hey, maybe now...okay, no" and "but surely now...okay, still no" and so on. I feel more and more stupid each time I get my hopes up anymore. Reading Carver`s new interview was a particular lowpoint.

Myrelle · February 5, 2016

"I feel more and more stupid each time I get my hopes up anymore. Reading Carver`s new interview was a particular lowpoint."

This is where I'm at right now also. The return from hiatus episode this season is the one that did me in and made me realize that S11 is just going to be a return to Sam having the myth-arc all to himself again, with the added bonus of most of the emotional POV also,(that was pretty much ALL that Dean has ever had for 7-8 seasons of this show). And I never felt that Sam didn't have any emotional POV-I just think his fandom didn't like what they were given, so the writers fixed that too this year for them-while Dean/Jensen fans are STILL desperately hoping for even AU moment of MichaelDean- and that's after almost 7 years. Yeah, I think we should give up on that one at least, eh-even while Carver still teases it by saying nothing.

Just going by what I've seen in this fandom, I think if you're a Samfan you can always have hope and even expect that they will eventually listen to the gripes and capitulate. It might take them some time, but ask for it and they will give it to you, eventuallty. OTOH, I think if you're a Deanfan all that you can ever hope for or expect for the character is a teasing of big storylines and/or half-measures at best in that dept. from the writers, regarding the gripes. And this season is proof positive of that to me more than any other season before has been. I, too, presently feel like an idiot(again!) for letting myself continue to hope for anything more for Dean.

catrox14 · February 5, 2016

Hey, all.

I started a new topic that I thought might be fun and possibly eventually useful for discussing minutia of lore and such on the show. If it's not something anyone is interested in, I'll have a mod delete it.

http://forums.previo...re-and-whatnot/

AwesomO4000 · February 5, 2016

As for feeling the show was balanced, there was never really a time when I did. Other than Season 4 while it was airing. In hindsight, I don`t feel that way anymore but back then, yes.

I can see that. And I can also see why we differ on that point.

Because when I'm saying balanced, I'm not referring to plot or mytharc, because for me, I'm more invested in the characters and characterization itself, whereas I think you are more invested in the plot from what you've said before. So I can see where you might find the early years less balanced with your focus on plot and mytharc.

But for me, I meant balanced in that both brothers have a valid point and a represented point of view that might be different but both generally make sense and I can see where they are both coming from. And they both have flaws and good points. Season 4 for me was actually a lower point in the balanced scale in the early years, because some of Sam's point of view was held back for purposes of "suspense." I guess an example might be Sam's demon blood drinking. We were never shown that event horizon that caused Sam to start doing it in the first place, and for me that would've made a big difference in understanding Sam's motivation and where he was coming from. I mean, in my opinion, it's not intuitive that someone like Sam just decides "sure, I've been fighting being a freak for 3 seasons now, but yeah, drinking demon blood sounds like a perfectly reasonable idea."

For me it was like if they'd had Dean go off and make the crossroads deal without having seen the scene where Dean talks to Sam's body. Sure, we could've speculated on why Dean did it (and I would've gotten it at least partially wrong), but for me, it made it much more powerful and connected us to Dean and his motivation to actually see that moment. With Sam we skipped a whole huge step there and a chance to connect with it. But then season 5 swung back and picked up some more of Sam's point of view while continuing Dean's, too, and Sam got some of his better qualities back, too, so okay, on the whole I was good again.

It went off the rails for me in 8, because the characterization was kind of thrown out the window a bit in my opinion - for both characters at different points in the season - in favor of moving along the plot: such as it was. We skipped a whole bunch of background and went straight to stuff that made little sense, but they were gonna force the plot in there anyway. Also the characters seemed to become less nuanced and less dimensional, for me anyway. Dean was more about his self-loathing, Sam got pissier and more judgmental with less other facets. So while the plot and mytharcs became more balanced, for me, the part I liked - the characterization - became less so.

Just to clarify that that's what I meant by "balanced in the brothers' portrayal..." Plot and mytharc is much lower on the scale for me when it comes to viewing... or I would've given up this show in season 8 with the Amelia plot and the trials that went nowhere.

Oh, and Crowley the merry torturer (that was awful). I'm annoyed that we had to devote practically a whole episode to that torture porn when it could've been used for just about anything else.

Edited February 5, 2016 by AwesomO4000

SueB · February 5, 2016

OTOH, I think if you're a Deanfan all that you can ever hope for or expect for the character is a teasing of big storylines and/or half-measures at best in that dept. from the writers, regarding the gripes.

I am a HUGE Deanfan and I have great hope. Yes, I'm also a big Samfan (I'm bi-bro). But please don't count me as NOT a Deanfan if I'm not hopeless. I'm LOVING Dean's story this season. I think Dean himself has shown character growth while simultaneously being at the center of the mystery surrounding the Big Bad. I read Carver's interview, I didn't interpret it as "all about Sam". Like, not remotely.

I get that some fans (both Deanfans, Samfans, and Casfans) have legitimate concerns based on what they've seen and their interpretation of what it means. But not all Deanfans are feeling hopeless.

Aeryn13 · February 5, 2016

Also the characters seemed to become less nuanced and less dimensional, for me anyway. Dean was more about his self-loathing, Sam got pissier and more judgmental with less other facets. So while the plot and mytharcs became more balanced, for me, the part I liked - the characterization - became less so.

I do agree that the characterization got worse all over the board in later Seasons, not so much that the arcs got more balanced. Since I don`t count emo storylines or non-genre ones or general navel gazing ones, between Dean`s supposed plot as Michael`s true vessel and a very short soujourn in Purgatory, there was a long dry spell for me. Basically all the way to the Cain episode which was three and a half years of waiting.

Season 4 being balanced to me back then was more of an island, water before and water beyond, so to speak.

I'm LOVING Dean's story this season.

I get that but therein also lies the big difference. I for example am quite disappointed with how the character has been used so far this year. His connection to Amara is treading water. We know about as much as we did after the Season Opener. And usually, he at least gets to shine in standalones and, by this point in a Season, we have at least gotten a Dean-centric episode. This year, still nada.

Also not seeing the character growth. Then again, I look for very different things in that area. For the life of me, I don`t want him to open up and "share the burden", not with the currently available characters to do so with. Nor do I care about "maybe, I want more out of this life" navel gazing.

As long as the show goes on that is super-pointless. I`m more interested in seeing the character do stuff that I enjoy and find interesting and not so much what makes him happy. That is for after a show. If it actually ended with him having a BDH-moment where he throws himself into the Empty to save the world and the show ended with that, I`d celebrate.

I did see character growth, in the first half of Season 8 that I really, really enjoyed. He seemed to get more independent and grow a spine, stand up for himself. That got trampled all over and since then he is pretty much Sam-focused again to unhealthy degrees.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Aeryn13

Commando Cody · February 5, 2016

Reading some of these threads suddenly made me miss the old "I am not your father" Castiel.

auntvi · February 6, 2016

I miss the original Castiel, before he became Dean's little buddy.

MysteryGuest · February 6, 2016

I can't say that I have any burning desire for Dean to have his moment with Michael, any more than I felt the need to revisit Lucifer. I wish they'd left that whole story arc back in season 5. It was over and done with, so move on. As much as I like Cas and Crowley, I am bored to tears with the rest of the angels and demons.

I wish they'd focus on smaller story arcs involving monsters, rather than all of the angel/demon drama. I really was hoping they'd go somewhere with the Steins, for example, but evidently Dean wiped out that entire family in one afternoon. But surely there are werewolf packs, vampire nests or various and sundry other monsters they could be going after that would be more entertaining than what we've had in recent seasons.

catrox14 · February 8, 2016

So rewatching s10 on TNT...

And it just occurred to me...we have never ONCE gotten any insight from post!demon!Dean about how it felt to be a demon. I mean how the fuck is that a thing the show never delved into?

I mean we know he never wants to be that thing again, but I sure would like a lot more insight into that experience from Dean's perspective.

Demented Daisy · February 8, 2016

Now that I'm feeling semi-human again, I finally finished my season 1 count.

Sam:

Said sorry: 5
Said he was wrong: 0
Said Dean was right: 2

Dean:

Said sorry: 5
Said he was wrong: 0
Said Sam was right: 4

Close numbers, but I find it amusing that they admit the other was right more than they admit they were wrong.

SueB · February 8, 2016

John's kids. That's why they don't say they were wrong.

Myrelle · February 8, 2016

"I do agree that the characterization got worse all over the board in later Seasons, not so much that the arcs got more balanced. Since I don`t count emo storylines or non-genre ones or general navel gazing ones, between Dean`s supposed plot as Michael`s true vessel and a very short soujourn in Purgatory, there was a long dry spell for me. Basically all the way to the Cain episode which was three and a half years of waiting.

Season 4 being balanced to me back then was more of an island, water before and water beyond, so to speak."

And this, right here, kind of highlights the difference(for me) between Deanfans whom I now trust for feedback on an episode when I'm unsure of watching it and/or trying to decide whether I want to give over my time to it or not. Bi-bro fans, who are also Deanfans, are quite frankly and IMO, much easier to be pleased or appeased by the writing, at this point in the series. I am not a bibro fan, and as such, I'm no longer interested in watching an episode if it's likely that I'm going to feel predominantly angry, bitter, or disappointed(or any combination of these), afterwards. That's not entertainment to me. That's more self flagellation to me. ;-) And If I ever get to the point when the show becomes more of an exercise in the latter than the former, I'll know that it's time to give it up. It's happened before for me with other shows, but this one keeps pulling me back into it because of the promise and potential for a great story that is always there and ever present while Jensen Ackles remains a part of the cast. The huge problem for this Deanfan(and others akin to me) is that, like Aeryn, I'm no longer the least bit interested in the purely emo brotherly stuff, again, and as I said once before, unless it somehow affects Dean(and JA) also being written at the center of the myth-arc in MORE than strictly, only, and just a supportive player/character/actor role-which he has been written in for most of the run of this series. Another huge problem with the writing for fans such as myself is that the bait and switch has been employed by these writers in regards and in answer to this now common Deanfan desire/gripe for what seems like forever. And I know that many bibro fans simply do not see things the same way in that regard, just as they also do not see things the same way regarding the(IMO) unbalanced writing of the emo brotherly stuff that presently takes place in most of the brotherly "talks" between the brothers.

Sam/JP was written strictly in the supportive role for a season and a half out of the entire ten and a half year run of this series-that is, for the second half of S9 and for most of 10. Every other season Sam had a central, supernaturally connected role to the center the myth-arc. Long drawn out storylines, yes, but always with Sam usually remaining supernaturally connected to the center of the arc and always through to the resolution of that arc. And from all I've read, many Sam/JP fans(and many who claim to be bibros also) did not like or care for Sam's/JP's role in the latter half of S9-10. Their discontent was even conveyed to JP(at a con M&G, I think) and he assured them that he understood and felt the same and that he was going to talk to the writers about it. And lo and behold in S11 we've gotten another carrot/hook for Deanfans in the premiere that Dean WOULD remain supernaturally connected to the MOC/Darkness storyline, which then quickly(by the second episode) morphed into more of a story for Sam and his visions of the cage and Lucifer, and Sam's feelings about that and oh noes, Lucifer is free and on the loose again, but likely still intent on claiming his OTV vessel again; and Dean and the Darkness have fallen by the wayside. Again-or at least up to this point. And I don't think it's hard to understand why many Deanfans fear that the same fate will befall this one that befell the MichaelDean storyline, or the Righteous Man sl, or the Servant of Heaven sl or Purgatory or even the seeming storyline that Dean has/had some kind of a special/otherworldly/supernatural connection/bond with Death-which IMO, they have teased us with, mercilessly, since Tessa was first introduced.

I get that this season is only halfway over, but there's also been a lot of the same kind of writing on the wall that was there with the above-mentioned Dean storylines. And yes, now we're not even getting anything of how and what Dean feels about things and about all that's happened to HIM in just the last two seasons-dying, becoming a demon, returned to being a human again(against his will-and yes, IA that it's completely insane that this has never been touched on by Dean himself-a passing comment by Cas was all that we were ever given on it. BOO! HISS! to the showrunner/writers for that ridiculous omission. JA would own a conversation or a glimpse into HIS head space in a scene or episode like that and a la all the similar types of scenes and scenarios and episodes that JP/Sam has been gifted with over the course of the series, but especially since S5), retaining the Mark and then losing it(also with the mechanics involved in that, going completely against his grain and will and wishes), and now this strange connection/bond with the Darkness that has resulted from everything that's gone before. And since I'm on a roll here, I'd like to just to add in that I'd really, REALLY! like to know how Dean feels about having lost Benny the way that he did, and the way that it happened-and about all of it, including Sam's insistence that Dean had to drop Benny. But I know that we'll never get anything like that.

Still, I'm waiting for my three Deancentric episodes that will shed some light on some new things about Dean in this second half-to match the three we got for Sam in the first half. And I'm waiting to see what they do with the Dean/Darkness sl. I too am now thinking that they are likely going to tie it up before the finale to get it out of the way of the redux of the SamLucifer story that's clearly coming and WILL w/o a doubt(IMO) happen in the finale.

Just an explanation of a few things that I had to rant about here because it helps to relieve the bitterness to talk about them and because it might also help some here understand the reasoning behind DVRing and gathering feedback from trusted friends and fellow Deanfans before watching episodes this season. FWIW, I DVRed the second half of S8(right after Trial and Error) up until mid S9. I watched live again after First Born, and all the way up until the S10 finale. I even watched the first two episodes of S11 live, but after that, nope. I could see what was coming. I've still only skipped two episodes entirely. I guess we'll see what the second half brings for JA/Dean and his role and his storyline as to whether I'll feel the need to skip more. I hope not. I don't want to, but I'm not getting burned by these wrtiers. Not again. And that's the beauty of the new technology. I don't have to.

Edited February 8, 2016 by Myrelle

catrox14 · February 8, 2016

Now that I'm feeling semi-human again, I finally finished my season 1 count.

Sam:

Said sorry: 5

Said he was wrong: 0

Said Dean was right: 2

Dean:

Said sorry: 5

Said he was wrong: 0

Said Sam was right: 4

Close numbers, but I find it amusing that they admit the other was right more than they admit they were wrong.

Future!Dean told present!Dean he was wrong in The End. But I'm guessing that's not included because even though Dean did experience and remembers the experience it's not being counted because it was an alternate future?

DittyDotDot · February 8, 2016

No, those are only S1 numbers.

catrox14 · February 8, 2016

OHHHH ! I did not get that! Reading FAIL! Thanks DDD LOL

But I guess the question would still remain regardless if she would include it or not.

Omegamom · February 8, 2016

I wouldn't count it because it's not one of the boys apologizing/saying he was wrong to the other. It's sort of like an internal monologue. ;-)

AwesomO4000 · February 8, 2016

Future!Dean told present!Dean he was wrong in The End. But I'm guessing that's not included because even though Dean did experience and remembers the experience it's not being counted because it was an alternate future?

Omegamom has a point. I also am not sure if that really counts as Dean per se. I was never really positive that the futureverse was the real future - or even a possible future - and not at least a little bit of a manipulation by Zachariah. I lean in both directions, depending on the day, on that one. It might be a closer call for me if Dean said he was wrong to Future Dean rather than the other way around, but I'm not sure I count Future Dean as real Dean... and Future Dean was kind of a jerk. He kind of reminded me of demon Dean in a lot of ways. Heh I agreed with Future Castiel on that one: "What? I like past you." Me, too, Cas, me too.

And thanks for the numbers, Demented Daisy. I hope that you are feeling better.

I was surprised a little, since I didn't remember as many of the Dean apologies as the Sam ones (so now I'm wondering if some were in episodes I didn't like as much and so don't revisit as often), though I didn't expect them to be all one-sided either, so it was good to see the numbers reflect that. What interests me the most is how often they apologized to each other back then... and I wonder if it is because they hadn't been together for a while, so the sorrys are part of their feeling each other out still. It's nice to know that there was a time in the show that they both apologized to one another on a regular basis.

And it just occurred to me...we have never ONCE gotten any insight from post!demon!Dean about how it felt to be a demon. I mean how the fuck is that a thing the show never delved into?

I mean we know he never wants to be that thing again, but I sure would like a lot more insight into that experience from Dean's perspective.

We still might at some point. It's possible that Dean might go on a similar "journey" with Amara that Sam went on with Lucifer, if that's the way she operates. The concerning thing, for me, might be her bliss factor. If that works on Dean, and she shows him stuff while also blissing him, things could get confused. Now that I mention that, I don't want to go there. I don't want a Dean addicted to or even tempted being addicted to bliss.

But there are also other ways. Dean revisited purgatory and how he felt about that in "The Werther Project," so they might still revisit it at some point.

catrox14 · February 8, 2016

Omegamom has a point. I also am not sure if that really counts as Dean per se. I was never really positive that the futureverse was the real future - or even a possible future - and not at least a little bit of a manipulation by Zachariah. I lean in both directions, depending on the day, on that one. It might be a closer call for me if Dean said he was wrong to Future Dean rather than the other way around, but I'm not sure I count Future Dean as real Dean... and Future Dean was kind of a jerk. He kind of reminded me of demon Dean in a lot of ways. Heh I agreed with Future Castiel on that one: "What? I like past you." Me, too, Cas, me too.

And thanks for the numbers, Demented Daisy. I hope that you are feeling better.

I was surprised a little, since I didn't remember as many of the Dean apologies as the Sam ones (so now I'm wondering if some were in episodes I didn't like as much and so don't revisit as often), though I didn't expect them to be all one-sided either, so it was good to see the numbers reflect that. What interests me the most is how often they apologized to each other back then... and I wonder if it is because they hadn't been together for a while, so the sorrys are part of their feeling each other out still. It's nice to know that there was a time in the show that they both apologized to one another on a regular basis.

We still might at some point. It's possible that Dean might go on a similar "journey" with Amara that Sam went on with Lucifer, if that's the way she operates. The concerning thing, for me, might be her bliss factor. If that works on Dean, and she shows him stuff while also blissing him, things could get confused. Now that I mention that, I don't want to go there. I don't want a Dean addicted to or even tempted being addicted to bliss.

But there are also other ways. Dean revisited purgatory and how he felt about that in "The Werther Project," so they might still revisit it at some point.

I think Dean has already been affected by the Bliss. He zones out big time whenever he's around her so I think it's a bit of Bliss. The question is how much and what keeps him from going full on Blissified. It seems like so far Sam getting hurt or him physically turning away from her like in 11..09 before he tried to stab her, that he seems to be able to shake her effect off.

re demon!Dean, I really have little hope of that. They've had nearly 32 episodes since Dean was cured which is basically a year in the Winchesters universe to address it textually in a meaningful way and they have yet to do so. Yes we have the episode where demon!Dean is cured and talking about his relationships and hunting and it being crap but that's not what I'm talking about.

I don't really buy into the idea that because Dean would never talk about certain things that other people around him shouldn't or don't or from that Dean himself wouldn't because we did get 3 small scenes and one episode in s4 with Dean talking about his time in Hell and what that made him feel. Whilst I thought more time could have been spent but we did get SOMETHING from Dean about Dean.

Oddly the only person that really talked about how Dean being a demon might have felt was Crowley but he talked about it because he needed to keep Dean on his side, not because it mattered how Dean felt. We had Sam and Cas talk about how they couldn't let Dean stay a demon but again that was about Sam and Cas saving Dean and how they felt about it.

I still want to understand from it from postDemon!Dean how that felt and what it did or didn't do for Dean. They've done it before so they can do it again, but to this point, I really don't think they are interested in it. More and more I think demon!Dean was a gimmick.

Sometimes I think Jensen's acting is too good for Dean's own good in the narrative. What I mean is I think the writers get lazy and rely or expect Jensen to bring through what's happened to Dean on screen via acting vs in writing or dialogue. I think viewers that really watch closely to the acting choices and remember Dean's history will likely pick up on those things like the slight hesitation before Dean went back to Hell to get Sam. That scene could be interpreted as Dean remembering Hell and trying not to remember or that Dean is just afraid of Hell on principle even if he never went there. But that relies on the viewer to engage that closely and that can often be left up to interpretation and some projection by the viewer which may or may not be fully intentional on the show's part.

Edited February 8, 2016 by catrox14

AwesomO4000 · February 9, 2016

re demon!Dean, I really have little hope of that. They've had nearly 32 episodes since Dean was cured which is basically a year in the Winchesters universe to address it textually in a meaningful way and they have yet to do so. Yes we have the episode where demon!Dean is cured and talking about his relationships and hunting and it being crap but that's not what I'm talking about.

"The Werther Project" happened more than 2 1/2 seasons after Dean returned from purgatory, so the writers do seem to have a long memory about some things, though. So there could still be hope.

Oddly the only person that really talked about how Dean being a demon might have felt was Crowley but he talked about it because he needed to keep Dean on his side, not because it mattered how Dean felt. We had Sam and Cas talk about how they couldn't let Dean stay a demon but again that was about Sam and Cas saving Dean and how they felt about it.

They didn't really touch much on how Sam felt about being possessed by a demon either though, not even when they were faced with potentially becoming angel meatsuits in season 5. I was actually surprised that Sam didn't bring it up in relation to Dean when Dean was considering saying "yes" to Michael, telling Dean what being a meatsuit feels like as part of Sam's argument against it.

And maybe the introspective times when Dean was still a demon were supposed to translate over? Because even Demon Dean - during the quiet times - didn't seem to be sure about what he was doing even when he seemed pretty confident around others. I wonder if we were supposed to see that as some of "Real Dean" coming through and having doubts. And I thought I remembered Sam asking Dean if he wanted to talk about it, and Dean said no he didn't (at the lake beach?). Or am I remembering that incorrectly?

What I mean is I think the writers get lazy and rely or expect Jensen to bring through what's happened to Dean on screen via acting vs in writing or dialogue.

I understand your frustration there as Sam has been the victim of the writers' laziness in that regard - especially in recent seasons - too. An early example was season 4 with skipping completely over a scene explaining why Sam started drinking demon blood and expecting the audience to fill in the blanks. Though thankfully I think Kripke and Gamble realized what a bad move that was and things got better for the next few years. Carver though not so much, since I think the whole not explaining why Sam didn't look for Dean or Kevin in any meaningful way and just expecting the audience to make something up that made sense was not only lazy but, in my opinion, disrespectful of Sam's character.

Demented Daisy · February 9, 2016

I wouldn't count it because it's not one of the boys apologizing/saying he was wrong to the other. It's sort of like an internal monologue. ;-)

Ding ding ding! We have a WINNAH! ;-)

catrox14 · February 9, 2016

And I thought I remembered Sam asking Dean if he wanted to talk about it, and Dean said no he didn't (at the lake beach?). Or am I remembering that incorrectly?

The only thing I remember about that beach scene besides OH DEAR GODS THEY ARE BEAUTIFUL, please let them stay there FOREVER...OH DEAR GODS Dean drinking that beer was porntastic and OH DEAR GODS HELP...

was Dean hinting at wanting to hunt and Sam side-eying him and saying if the second things start to go sideways....and Dean saying I'm good. But again, for me, that's insufficient. It doesn't matter if Dean wants to shut down the conversation, there are ways to make it important but IMO after the mention in Fan Fiction, the discussion in Book of the Damned which ultimately was about Sam not being able to watch Dean become a demon again and that he would save Dean's life, that's about it. Granted they had the overarching threat that Dean might turn back into a demon and the fake out with his eyes flashing black in Inside Man but none of those reflected Dean's state of mind IMO about what it was like for him being a demon in retrospect. It's almost like once they cured him the show wants to pretend it never happened just like Dean going to Hell and its fucking frustrating.

I really don't remember Sam ever becoming an actual demon. He was possessed by Meg and he had his eyes go black from hopping up on demon blood juice but I don't remember that it was him actually being a demon at that point. Like his soul wasn't altered like Dean's was. But I'm probably forgetting something

AwesomO4000 · February 9, 2016

I really don't remember Sam ever becoming an actual demon. He was possessed by Meg and he had his eyes go black from hopping up on demon blood juice but I don't remember that it was him actually being a demon at that point. Like his soul wasn't altered like Dean's was. But I'm probably forgetting something

Sam supposedly became a demon briefly - according to Chuck anyway - but doesn't remember it, because then he was detoxed on the plane. But I was referring to Sam being possessed by Meg. That wasn't really brought up seriously afterwards either as I said, even in season 5 when Sam should've been bringing up that he knows what it's like to be a meatsuit. And it seemed to further be forgotten to an even greater extent when they would later have Sam and Meg have a "heart to heart" talk in season 8. Because really? I can somewhat see the enemy of my enemy thing and/or last resort because Dean asked in season 7 (and at least Sam questioned it then), but then supposedly Sam is going to confide in the demon who possessed him against his will, killed someone with Sam's hands (and Sam remembered it - probably the first person he remembers killing), and tried to kill Dean while in his body? But yeah, whatever: let's forget about all that so Sam can chat with Meg - at length - about Amelia. At that rate, next he'll be confiding in Crowley.

SueB · February 9, 2016

The huge problem for this Deanfan(and others akin to me) is that, like Aeryn, I'm no longer the least bit interested in the purely emo brotherly stuff, again, and as I said once before, unless it somehow affects Dean(and JA) also being written at the center of the myth-arc in MORE than strictly, only, and just a supportive player/character/actor role-which he has been written in for most of the run of this series. Another huge problem with the writing for fans such as myself is that the bait and switch has been employed by these writers in regards and in answer to this now common Deanfan desire/gripe for what seems like forever.

<snip>

Just an explanation of a few things that I had to rant about here because it helps to relieve the bitterness to talk about them and because it might also help some here understand the reasoning behind DVRing and gathering feedback from trusted friends and fellow Deanfans before watching episodes this season. FWIW, I DVRed the second half of S8(right after Trial and Error) up until mid S9. I watched live again after First Born, and all the way up until the S10 finale. I even watched the first two episodes of S11 live, but after that, nope. I could see what was coming. I've still only skipped two episodes entirely. I guess we'll see what the second half brings for JA/Dean and his role and his storyline as to whether I'll feel the need to skip more. I hope not. I don't want to, but I'm not getting burned by these wrtiers. Not again. And that's the beauty of the new technology. I don't have to.

I get your perspective (don't agree, but get it).

And although I can't speak for other bi-bro fans, ITA that personally I'm much more easily satisfied with the writing of this show. I get a great deal of enjoyment out of what I see as nuances (hence why I watch episodes 4 or 5 times after they air) in plot and character. And I see value in the full spectrum of plots (from mytharcs to emos). The show usually aligns to my expectations, so I'm generally happy about it. I've had other series that did not, so I get where bitterness comes from.

Demented Daisy · February 9, 2016

Standard disclaimers: IMO, mileage varies, blah blah blah.

I can't speak for other bi-bro fans, either, but I could not possibly disagree more that we are "easier to be pleased or appeased by the writing". Especially in the Carver years. They have admitted that they make it up as they go along, instead of having a plan and an endgame in mind for the season. To me, it is the epitome of lazy writing. It leads to mistakes and retcons and a general feeling of malaise, IMO. After all, why ask if you're creating problems within the writing if you can just say, "Eh, we'll figure it out later?"

It's why they didn't close the gates of Hell. It's why Dean became a demon. It's why we got the Darkness. And it's why all of those stories have amounted to a whole lot of nothing.

I hate it.

Myrelle · February 9, 2016

I get a great deal of enjoyment out of what I see as nuances (hence why I watch episodes 4 or 5 times after they air) in plot and character. And I see value in the full spectrum of plots (from mytharcs to emos).

I used to feel this way also until the episode Fallen Idols happened, and then those last three or four in S5(starting with PONR). That was when the writing of all of it-character and plot(from myth-arc to emo) took a turn for the worse for me-and never recovered. In fact, all aspects of the writing seemed to only further bottom out. I remember having so much fun speculating on what could or might happen. I remember being so shocked that they actually sent Dean to Hell. I mean there were only the two options-either he would be saved from it or he wouldn't be, but I was pretty sure that they were going to pull off some kind of a miraculous save. I remember how excited the fandom was that summer. They almost had it back when Dean became a demon in the S9 finale, but three episodes into S10, it just became the same old, same old. Still, S9 and 10, DID actually somewhat reawaken that old feeling for this show in me(despite the writing, not because of it-although I like Berens very much), but the usual and now predictable writing/showrunning bugaboos slowly crept in again culminating with that S10 finale. We'll see how 11 ends.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Myrelle

DittyDotDot · February 9, 2016

I'm totally bi-bro and I wouldn't say I'm pleased or appeased by it lately. It's really started to be a chore to watch this season. I mean, I've been less than thrilled with it for a while now, but as I said above, it was my number-one priority even when I was exhausted and should just go get some sleep. This season, I don't seem to get around to the show for a couple days and then all I can seem to say about it is, "Well, it wasn't offensive." So, yeah, I don't think any type of fans can be generalized in this fandom.

However, I know there are some folks who are still working their tails off and do love and care about what they're doing. So I stick with it. I guess I figure they've earned my support for delighting me for so many years. That, and I'm a bit of a completionist and keep thinking each season's going to be the last, might as well see it through to the end. Man am I easily fooled! ;)

SueB · February 9, 2016

So, yeah, I don't think any type of fans can be generalized in this fandom.

I agree. Get 5 of us in a room and get 8 opinions about a scene or an episode.

Edited February 9, 2016 by SueB

Myrelle · February 9, 2016

Sorry if that came out like a generalization. Perhaps I could amend it to say that from all I've seen, IF one is going to find support for the writing on this show, I think it's most likely going to come from the bibro segment; which is why *I* choose to give more weight to the opinions and feedback from Deanfans like myself. Some I've known for years. My point was, I wouldn't want anyone here to take anything personally if they were to post that they loved an episode, but I still chose to skip it entirely.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Myrelle

shang yiet · February 9, 2016

And I never felt that Sam didn't have any emotional POV-I just think his fandom didn't like what they were given

I never felt Dean didn't have any role in the mytharc so if I follow this reasoning, Dean fans just didn''t like what they were given.

We have fans who want Dean to express his feelings about being a demon. I get it because mytharc without emotional POV is not very satisfying, is it? Which was what Sam fans have been saying all along! What we want is perfectly reasonable.

So I don't believe that emo angst is nothing. It is not a consolation prize.

I personally enjoy the views of bibro fans .Because they love Sam and Dean more or less equally, they are able to have more balanced views and can see both sides of the coin. So when they give an opinion, I can consider it because I know they are not biased against one brother or another or just saying it because they hate Sam or Dean, you know?

As a Sam fan, I know I watch the show through Sam glasses.. So my views just might be a teensy weensy bit skewed by my Sam preference. That doesn't mean I am going to turn bibro. Being Sam-focused is my way of enjoying the show.

.

Edited February 9, 2016 by shang yiet

Aeryn13 · February 9, 2016

I get it because mytharc without emotional POV is not very satisfying, is it?

Depends. If the narrative is all about one character, I always feel they get sufficient exposure. What bugs me about Demon!Dean is that he only lasted 3 measly episodes and nothing really was done with it. If they had devoted half or a full Season to it with many cool, flashy scenes, I could care less if the character navel gazes about it later. It should be adressed in the follow-up episode but I don`t specifically need more. Because yeah, just emo IS a consolation prize to me.

Which was what Sam fans have been saying all along! What we want is perfectly reasonable.

I don`t feel that what I want for my favourite character is unreasonable either. I remember back in Season 4 after one episode where it looked like the mytharc shifted to Dean. The sky was falling and the "just supporting your brother" role was suddenly the worst thing ever. It was no longer "it`s always a story about both" and all the platitudes I always heard about Dean`s non-involvement.

Which, I even get it. A character one isn`t personally invested in so much, very little is good enough for but for one`s favourite, this ain`t true.

which is why *I* choose to give more weight to the opinions and feedback from Deanfans like myself

At this point, I, too, find it better to brace myself. And both kind of reviews actually do help. If someone hates an ep because it doesn`t have brother moments or something, I will probably go "hallelujah, maybe this will be a good one". Or vice versa.

Myrelle · February 9, 2016

I never felt Dean didn't have any role in the mytharc so if I follow this reasoning, Dean fans just didn''t like what they were given.

We have fans who want Dean to express his feelings about being a demon. I get it because mytharc without emotional POV is not very satisfying, is it? Which was what Sam fans have been saying all along! What we want is perfectly reasonable.

As reasonable as Deanfans who want to see Dean as the Chosen One in a storyline that keeps him in that role through the resolution of the storyline. Samfans are getting what they asked for in spades this season, IMO. Let's see if Dean remains The Chosen One in this storyline in which he started out that way. The Chosen One-the Only One strong enough to be able to defeat the Big Bad that threatens the world-with the added dialogue from other characters that will reinforce it and back it up; and I'd even be fine with him getting an assist from Sam similar to the one that Dean was assigned in Swan Song. I can't believe that they will do that, though. If anything, Sam's "assist" will come right back to his being a Chosen One also(at the very least. And hopefully Dean won't be denied that role entirely once again).

In order to prevent this from becoming too circular of a discussion, I'm going to bow out now.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Myrelle

trxr4kids · February 9, 2016

Sam supposedly became a demon briefly - according to Chuck anyway - but doesn't remember it, because then he was detoxed on the plane. But I was referring to Sam being possessed by Meg. That wasn't really brought up seriously afterwards either as I said, even in season 5 when Sam should've been bringing up that he knows what it's like to be a meatsuit.

I think having Sam mention being possessed and knowing what it was like brings up a real problem for Sam character wise so I'm glad they didn't. After being possessed by Meg, Sam should have known firsthand how manipulative and untrustworthy demons are but he still bought Ruby's crap. I think we had enough reminders throughout season 5 of how stupid had been without adding that. I agree I would've liked clarification on when and why he started drinking demon blood, but in looking back I think he started in season 3. I base this on a few things- he was desperate to save Dean, we saw ample proof that he was willing to do anything. What makes me pretty sure though is Jus in Bello when he was willing to let Ruby cut out Nancy's heart, it was the same attitude he had when sacrificing the nurse in, the only thing that stood in his way both times was Dean and since Zach altered that phone message he went through with it. I think it's more in keeping with Sam's character at that point in the show that he would've done it (drink demonblood) to save Dean but I find it hard to believe that Sam who just wanted to be normal and planned to go back to it once Azazel was gone would just be all Dean's dead must become the boy king now and hey screw my brother's dying wish. I think he was already hooked by the time Dean was gone.

ETA: Season 8 made me hate Sam and retroactively judgemental/hateful about past seasons which was when I stopped watching live, took a step back so that I could enjoy or stop the show and came to my conclusions about the demon blood. To me it made like Sam again with the benefit of not making him look like a moron, just a desperate brother. I also give him a pass for season 8 now, though I won't try and rewatch again because I feel the narrative, previous season and weird dreamlike quality to the Amelia flashbacks alludes to Sam having a breakdown and not coping like at all (denial bigtime) and then when Dean comes back he's (Dean) got ptsd and doesn't realize it and it all spirals from there.

Edited February 9, 2016 by trxr4kids

AwesomO4000 · February 9, 2016

I think having Sam mention being possessed and knowing what it was like brings up a real problem for Sam character wise so I'm glad they didn't. After being possessed by Meg, Sam should have known firsthand how manipulative and untrustworthy demons are but he still bought Ruby's crap. I think we had enough reminders throughout season 5 of how stupid had been without adding that.

In my opinion, Ruby and Sam is a more complicated situation than simply "demons are untrustworthy." Sam knew that and even said from the beginning that he didn't trust Ruby. He was trying to use her for information, and it backfired on him in the end - though not really in season 3, yet. Yes, Sam was foolish in that regard, but Meg and being possessed by her for me is a different thing and would've gone directly to the season 5 meatsuit storyline. Especially with regard to Dean wanting to say "yes" for a time. To me, an argument from Sam like "look dude, I've been possessed. This is not something you should want," seems like a logical argument.

And, for me, there's a difference between Ruby - who arguably did show up and save Sam's and even sometimes Dean's ass from the start of her introduction - and Meg, who from the beginning tried to kill them. I wouldn't have minded Sam bringing up Meg's possession in the above scenario, since at the time Sam was the only one of them who had knowledge of what being possessed was like, and it would make sense for him to warn Dean about how awful it was.

And as for trusting demons, the show didn't seem to think it was foolish of Dean to trust Meg in season 7, since apparently for Dean, she was just fine when it came to taking care of Castiel, and no bad came from it.

I agree I would've liked clarification on when and why he started drinking demon blood, but in looking back I think he started in season 3. I base this on a few things- he was desperate to save Dean, we saw ample proof that he was willing to do anything. What makes me pretty sure though is Jus in Bello when he was willing to let Ruby cut out Nancy's heart,

I always thought it happened after Dean was gone. Which is one of the reasons I think the show really should've addressed this rather than just skip over it.

For me "Jus In Bello" happened because of "Mystery Spot." I thought that Sam's slide was slower, and that was the first step. Then came the doctor, which was a pretty desperate option and maybe should have been less of an option if Sam had another alternative.

My interpretation was that after Dean was gone, Ruby convinced Sam that not only should he want revenge - which when he's devastated, Sam is prone to fall into - but that he was the only one who could stop Lilith from doing more damage. And since Lilith was there partially because of Sam and Dean, Sam would want to clean up that mess - or should want to anyway (season 8 notwithstanding). And I think that this is how Ruby talked Sam into it, but as I said, it would still seem to be a huge step and one that the show should not have just handwaved and gone on by.

As for the "normal life," at that point in the show, Sam hadn't wanted one since about "Everybody Loves a Clown" (and it was reiterated more recently in "What Is..."), and Dean's dying wish was that Sam continue hunting ("keep fighting") like Dad and Dean had taught him and take care of the car, not that Sam live a normal life. That was Sam's wish to Dean, since Sam had seen - and was shown to us, the viewer, in "Point of No Return" - that in some ways, Dean wanted that. And taking care of Lilith would've been part of continuing on that request, even if the blood drinking part wasn't. But as Sam explained early on to Dean in season 4, Dean had asked a huge thing of him and he was the one left alone to continue fighting on without Dean, and unfortunately for him, Sam knew all too well from "Mystery Spot" what that existence was going to be like. And I can also see how Sam thinking his getting stronger would be needed to get rid of Lilith and clean up the mess once and for all, especially when we saw all the difficulties he had trying to do it the "hard" way and with all of the new demons now running around and Sam finding that it was getting more and more difficult to fight all of these demons on his own. But again - clarification might've been nice.

trxr4kids · February 9, 2016

I see your point about the possession but I think if they had addressed it in the way you wanted would have, for me at least, made Sam come off as more arrogant than he had already been portrayed as. He wasn't able to get control back from Meg so had he presented that argument to Dean in regards to Michael how would Dean have reacted to Sam's plan to say yes to Lucifer, considering Dean was pretty adamant against without the Meg reminder. I can see him not wanting Dean to suffer possession but anything said in regards to Sam's experience with it would have just made Dean more adamant to save Sam from it especially from Lucifer.

When I mentioned Dean's dying wish I meant specifically the part about not using his powers, I wasn't saying Dean elicited a normal life promise. It was the first thing Dean asked about and Sam lied.

Also I don't think Sam had given up on wanting out, I think he was resolved to save Dean and then figure it out. Had he saved Dean it could have gone either way imo. I also think it's pretty understandable that decisions made in crisis especially at such a young age are not written in stone.

Edited February 9, 2016 by trxr4kids

MysteryGuest · February 10, 2016

Ruby convinced Sam that only he could stop Lillith, and the only way to do that was to "amp up" the demon in him by drinking demon blood. Once he started, I think he got caught up in the fact that he could kill the demons without killing the vessels, which is how he tried to sell it to Dean. Personally, I think Sam can be pretty naive sometimes.

It all comes down to the same issue...bad writing. I honestly think they're struggling even now with just how to carry out this Darkness storyline. It really makes no sense to me, and I find the whole "God's sister" premise just silly. Why have her start out as a woman, and then regress to infancy, only to then rapidly grow back into a woman. I mean seriously, what the hell was the point of that? The Darkness idea looked promising at the end of season 10, and even during the first episode of this season, but after that, I've been unimpressed. I was assuming it would be more in keeping with the Leviathon story arc, but instead we just have this bitchy woman walking around with the hots for Dean. I don't see them resolving this in any satisfying way. I'm extremely annoyed, because I really was looking forward to this season.

catrox14 · February 10, 2016

I'm not sure the show even knows what to do with Dean anymore. I really don't. I mean this nebulous attachment to Amara is just annoying. And at this point, I remain convinced Dean's the barfing from the smiting sickness,lack of energy, and that he was vulnerable to the banshee all points to Amara is taking a toll on Dean and has done something to him when she kissed him.

I have a thought that keeps creeping back in that I'll take to the spoiler spec thread.

Demented Daisy · February 10, 2016

Season 2 numbers:

Sam:

Sorry -- 5
Wrong -- 0
Dean right -- 4

Dean:

Sorry -- 10
Wrong -- 0
Sam right -- 0

I took out the "thanks" number because I only started counting halfway through the season. I'll do it from now on, though. Otherwise, some very interesting stats here.

catrox14 · February 10, 2016

Wow. I knew Dean had said he was sorry fairly regularly but I had no idea s2 would have that many. That's interesting.

AwesomO4000 · February 11, 2016

Wow. I knew Dean had said he was sorry fairly regularly but I had no idea s2 would have that many. That's interesting.

I had a feeling, because I was watching a season 2 episode today on TNT while on the treadmill, and Dean said sorry to Sam twice in it. The apologies were related to John's death and Dean's sort of erratic behavior (that was worrying Sam). I even remember thinking to myself, "Demented is probably going to be busy counting Dean's apologies this season," (because the Dean guilt from John's death and keeping the "big secret" goes on for a bit - shitty John for dumping all that crap on Dean.)

Thanks for the interesting data, Demented. It's good to see the guys still apologizing to each other.

amensisterfriend · February 11, 2016

I just really miss the first three seasons of this show. (The unpopular part is that I genuinely love S3!)

FlickChick · February 11, 2016

I also enjoy S3 very much. The only aggravating part for me was the "arms crossed in every scene Ruby". My UO is that I liked Bela so much more than Ruby.

catrox14 · February 11, 2016

I also enjoy S3 very much. The only aggravating part for me was the "arms crossed in every scene Ruby". My UO is that I liked Bela so much more than Ruby.

Oh. My. Gods. I totally forgot about Ruby 1.0 doing that. Katie Cassidy does the exact same thing in Arrow now as Laurel Lance. HAHAHAHA. Wow.

Demented Daisy · February 12, 2016

Season 3 numbers:

Sam:

Sorry -- 4
Wrong -- 0
Dean right -- 0
Thanks -- 2

Dean:

Sorry -- 4
Wrong -- 0
Sam right -- 3
Thanks -- 3

AwesomO4000 · February 12, 2016

Very interesting Demented. The guys are still apologizing to each other and/or admitting the other is right fairly evenly.

It's interesting how they are keeping up that Winchester trait, though as neither of them has said they are wrong yet. ; )

Thanks for the continued data gathering.

Edited February 12, 2016 by AwesomO4000

Aeryn13 · February 12, 2016

Isn`t saying someone else was right about something also acknowledging that you were wrong? If I agree with someone on something in the first place, I`m not making an "okay, you were right about this" declaration. I only do that if at first I dis-agreed and now am forced to reconsider. Even if I don`t specifically say I was wrong but saying "you were right", I do.

So if Dean said Sam was right three times, then he must have thought he himself was wrong three times. And Sam didn`t say a single one time that Dean was right about something during Season 3? Even I am surprised by this. I know the Season was short but that`s kinda wow.

Demented Daisy · February 12, 2016

Isn`t saying someone else was right about something also acknowledging that you were wrong? If I agree with someone on something in the first place, I`m not making an "okay, you were right about this" declaration. I only do that if at first I dis-agreed and now am forced to reconsider. Even if I don`t specifically say I was wrong but saying "you were right", I do.

So if Dean said Sam was right three times, then he must have thought he himself was wrong three times. And Sam didn`t say a single one time that Dean was right about something during Season 3? Even I am surprised by this. I know the Season was short but that`s kinda wow.

You would think that "you were right" is essentially the same as "I was wrong", but it's rarely discussed that way. It's more often "You were right about me" which is not the same as "I was wrong about me". After a case, they don't tend to say that the other was right about how they should have tackled the monster or anything like that. That kind of stuff is (mostly) shunted to the side in favor of the emotional stuff.

The reason that Dean said that Sam was right in S3 had everything to do with Dean's bravado concerning Hell.

FlickChick · February 12, 2016

Season 3 numbers:

Sam:

Sorry -- 4

Wrong -- 0

Dean right -- 0

Thanks -- 2

Dean:

Sorry -- 4

Wrong -- 0

Sam right -- 3

Thanks -- 3

In NRFTW, Dean tells Sam "This is all my fault. I know that" when Dean only has moments left before midnight. Doesn't that count as a "wrong"? Or does it only count if he wouldn't do it again? ;)

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